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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest PB / Polling Matters podcast asks two big questions

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest PB / Polling Matters podcast asks two big questions about Johnson: Is his victory now inevitable and is he a vote winner?

 

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  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    His minders can hinder Johnson from making a tit of himself during the Tory leadership contest, but they cannot change his basic personality. Once elected, the inner-Boris will out. The man is a buffoon.

    Yes, his victory is inevitable as long as the minders succeed in protecting him from himself,

    No, he is not a vote winner, because the finest minders in the world cannot erect an impregnable barrier around him.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    His minders can hinder Johnson from making a tit of himself during the Tory leadership contest, but they cannot change his basic personality. Once elected, the inner-Boris will out. The man is a buffoon.

    Yes, his victory is inevitable as long as the minders succeed in protecting him from himself,

    No, he is not a vote winner, because the finest minders in the world cannot erect an impregnable barrier around him.

    He’s only a winner because people are assuming name recognition in polling as something more than that. Come any election and the truth will quickly be revealed.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    His minders can hinder Johnson from making a tit of himself during the Tory leadership contest, but they cannot change his basic personality. Once elected, the inner-Boris will out. The man is a buffoon.

    Yes, his victory is inevitable as long as the minders succeed in protecting him from himself,

    No, he is not a vote winner, because the finest minders in the world cannot erect an impregnable barrier around him.

    Keep out of sight; say practically nothing, and then only in controlled circumstances to safe audiences. We saw at Boris's launch, where he called a Mail journalist and then had to ask if he was even present, that he was talking only to pre-selected questioners, and then not taking follow-ups.

    A bit like Theresa May in 2017. Hardly an unqualified success. Common factor: Lynton Crosby.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    An interesting podcast that should be compulsory listening for Conservative MPs and leadership contenders as it mentioned some flaws in the polling that made Boris seem almost inevitable.

    Such as the treatment of don't knows, which meant name recognition was a decisive factor; that Boris's advantages with Leave voters hide weaknesses with Remain voters; that measures like google trends favour Rory.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    eek said:

    He’s only a winner because people are assuming name recognition in polling as something more than that. Come any election and the truth will quickly be revealed.

    Yes. Whoever is the new prime minister will become famous almost overnight. Name recognition at this stage does not mean an advantage in a general election.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    One of the many good things about being in California is that Boris, Jeremy and the rest of them seem a very long way away.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Fishing said:

    One of the many good things about being in California is that Boris, Jeremy and the rest of them seem a very long way away.

    The only downside is you are closer to me and rcs1000. :)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Fishing said:

    One of the many good things about being in California is that Boris, Jeremy and the rest of them seem a very long way away.

    Yes but your strawberries taste of strawberry flavour rather than strawberries.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    Rory Stewart will be out by Tuesday, he is basically a Lib Dem

    British voters:
    25% Genuine Conservative (vote Brexit Party etc)
    20% Genuine Labour (like Corbyn etc)
    55% Basically LibDems
    Fair enough, the problem is some on PB want 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs (plus of course it depends on the issue on crime, immigration etc voters tend to take a harder line then the LDs and they also back renationalising the railways etc unlike the LDs)
    Can you tell us who you think on PB "wants 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs"? I haven't had this impression in over 10 years of reading the comments.

    It would have to be a pretty rare person who is interested in politics, their opinions lie in the middle or staddle the political spectrum and then be against the exixstence of parties to the left or the right. The LDs even have "democrats" in their name.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Take a look at who Vox, the Spanish far right anti-immigrant party, have aligned with in the European Parliament. This should be a huge controversy but probably won’t be.
  • eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    Rory Stewart will be out by Tuesday, he is basically a Lib Dem

    British voters:
    25% Genuine Conservative (vote Brexit Party etc)
    20% Genuine Labour (like Corbyn etc)
    55% Basically LibDems
    Fair enough, the problem is some on PB want 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs (plus of course it depends on the issue on crime, immigration etc voters tend to take a harder line then the LDs and they also back renationalising the railways etc unlike the LDs)
    Can you tell us who you think on PB "wants 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs"? I haven't had this impression in over 10 years of reading the comments.

    It would have to be a pretty rare person who is interested in politics, their opinions lie in the middle or staddle the political spectrum and then be against the exixstence of parties to the left or the right. The LDs even have "democrats" in their name.
    As did the German Democratic Republic. Outside the US "Democratic" is a weasel word. It is one of those words that if you have to say it then it probably isn't true.

    I haven't seen much evidence that the LDs are Liberal either.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    Rory Stewart will be out by Tuesday, he is basically a Lib Dem

    British voters:
    25% Genuine Conservative (vote Brexit Party etc)
    20% Genuine Labour (like Corbyn etc)
    55% Basically LibDems
    Fair enough, the problem is some on PB want 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs (plus of course it depends on the issue on crime, immigration etc voters tend to take a harder line then the LDs and they also back renationalising the railways etc unlike the LDs)
    Can you tell us who you think on PB "wants 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs"? I haven't had this impression in over 10 years of reading the comments.

    It would have to be a pretty rare person who is interested in politics, their opinions lie in the middle or staddle the political spectrum and then be against the exixstence of parties to the left or the right. The LDs even have "democrats" in their name.
    As did the German Democratic Republic. Outside the US "Democratic" is a weasel word. It is one of those words that if you have to say it then it probably isn't true.

    I haven't seen much evidence that the LDs are Liberal either.
    The Conservatives aren’t conservative in the slightest. Ideological zealotry runs through blue veins these days.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    edited June 2019

    Take a look at who Vox, the Spanish far right anti-immigrant party, have aligned with in the European Parliament. This should be a huge controversy but probably won’t be.

    Yep, the anti-immigrant, Soros-conspiracist, Franco-nostalgic, anti-equality, Bannon-promoted Vox party will sit with the Tories in the European parliament. Hard right English nationalists and far right Spanish nationalists in perfect harmony - as long as you do not mention Gibraltar.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    edited June 2019
    Good morning everyone. Has the rain actually stopped? Just down to showers for a couple of hours today, then a reasonable prospect of sun for a few days now.

    Came across two anecdotes about politicians over the last couple of days; one dead, one very much alive. The first was of Harold Wilson, when faced with a young trainee journalist, who was very nervous. Told that she was, and why, he told her to ask whatever she wanted, but could he hear... not see.... what she'd written. She did, he made only a very few minor changes, and she went on to be confirmed in her fist job and go on to have a satisfying career.
    The other tale was of Boris who apparently sometimes goes into his local supermarket (yes, I was surprised, too, but apparently it's 'man of the people' stuff) and throws his weight about. Makes himself very unpopular with management and staff.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Interesting yesterday (was it commented on?) that GO gave Boris the option of support from the ES if... Boris would jettison the blimpish oaf and embrace his inner liberal.

    Not sure if Osborne was trolling or not but I'm sure something for BoJo's campaign manager to ponder.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Good morning everyone. Has the rain actually stopped? Just down to showers for a couple of hours today, then a reasonable prospect of sun for a few days now.

    Came across two anecdotes about politicians over the last couple of days; one dead, one very much alive. The first was of Harold Wilson, when faced with a young trainee journalist, who was very nervous. Told that she was, and why, he told her to ask whatever she wanted, but could he hear... not see.... what she'd written. She did, he made only a very few minor changes, and she went on to be confirmed in her fist job and go on to have a satisfying career.
    The other tale was of Boris who apparently sometimes goes into his local supermarket (yes, I was surprised, too, but apparently it's 'man of the people' stuff) and throws his weight about. Makes himself very unpopular with management and staff.

    citation required
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Good morning everyone. Has the rain actually stopped? Just down to showers for a couple of hours today, then a reasonable prospect of sun for a few days now.

    Came across two anecdotes about politicians over the last couple of days; one dead, one very much alive. The first was of Harold Wilson, when faced with a young trainee journalist, who was very nervous. Told that she was, and why, he told her to ask whatever she wanted, but could he hear... not see.... what she'd written. She did, he made only a very few minor changes, and she went on to be confirmed in her fist job and go on to have a satisfying career.
    The other tale was of Boris who apparently sometimes goes into his local supermarket (yes, I was surprised, too, but apparently it's 'man of the people' stuff) and throws his weight about. Makes himself very unpopular with management and staff.

    citation required
    The first anecdote was in Third Age Matters, the magazine of the U3a, the University of the Third Age. The second was a private conversation.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Good morning everyone. Has the rain actually stopped? Just down to showers for a couple of hours today, then a reasonable prospect of sun for a few days now.

    Came across two anecdotes about politicians over the last couple of days; one dead, one very much alive. The first was of Harold Wilson, when faced with a young trainee journalist, who was very nervous. Told that she was, and why, he told her to ask whatever she wanted, but could he hear... not see.... what she'd written. She did, he made only a very few minor changes, and she went on to be confirmed in her fist job and go on to have a satisfying career.
    The other tale was of Boris who apparently sometimes goes into his local supermarket (yes, I was surprised, too, but apparently it's 'man of the people' stuff) and throws his weight about. Makes himself very unpopular with management and staff.

    citation required
    The first anecdote was in Third Age Matters, the magazine of the U3a, the University of the Third Age. The second was a private conversation.
    It isn't private any more.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I'm just of to Oxford to take part in a conference panel with Keiran and Matt Singh.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,520

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.
    Corbyn may be misguided in some of his ideology and has not done enough to stop antisemitism and abuse in Labour, but there is also no doubt that he genuinely cares about things and people other than himself.

    Boris cares about Boris.

    They are not the same.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Good morning everyone. Has the rain actually stopped? Just down to showers for a couple of hours today, then a reasonable prospect of sun for a few days now.

    Came across two anecdotes about politicians over the last couple of days; one dead, one very much alive. The first was of Harold Wilson, when faced with a young trainee journalist, who was very nervous. Told that she was, and why, he told her to ask whatever she wanted, but could he hear... not see.... what she'd written. She did, he made only a very few minor changes, and she went on to be confirmed in her fist job and go on to have a satisfying career.
    The other tale was of Boris who apparently sometimes goes into his local supermarket (yes, I was surprised, too, but apparently it's 'man of the people' stuff) and throws his weight about. Makes himself very unpopular with management and staff.

    citation required
    The first anecdote was in Third Age Matters, the magazine of the U3a, the University of the Third Age. The second was a private conversation.
    in other words a smear. I don't like Boris , but its the sort of smear that appears at these times. Remember the one about Obama dissing veterans, which was a straight out and out lie.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Good morning everyone. Has the rain actually stopped? Just down to showers for a couple of hours today, then a reasonable prospect of sun for a few days now.

    Came across two anecdotes about politicians over the last couple of days; one dead, one very much alive. The first was of Harold Wilson, when faced with a young trainee journalist, who was very nervous. Told that she was, and why, he told her to ask whatever she wanted, but could he hear... not see.... what she'd written. She did, he made only a very few minor changes, and she went on to be confirmed in her fist job and go on to have a satisfying career.
    The other tale was of Boris who apparently sometimes goes into his local supermarket (yes, I was surprised, too, but apparently it's 'man of the people' stuff) and throws his weight about. Makes himself very unpopular with management and staff.

    citation required
    The first anecdote was in Third Age Matters, the magazine of the U3a, the University of the Third Age. The second was a private conversation.
    in other words a smear. I don't like Boris , but its the sort of smear that appears at these times. Remember the one about Obama dissing veterans, which was a straight out and out lie.
    I'm sorry you think it's a 'smear'; it was intended to be a straightforward report of someone who has had dealings with the man 'outside'. Not to his credit, but then we're reading stories all over the place about how 'good' he is.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,520
    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.
    Corbyn may be misguided in some of his ideology and has not done enough to stop antisemitism and abuse in Labour, but there is also no doubt that he genuinely cares about things and people other than himself.

    Boris cares about Boris.

    They are not the same.
    That's a big mistake people make about Corbyn. He genuinely cares about *some* things and *some* people.

    If you're not in certain groups, he sees you as the enemy. In some ways that's more dangerous than an egomaniac like Johnson.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited June 2019
    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.
    Corbyn may be misguided in some of his ideology and has not done enough to stop antisemitism and abuse in Labour, but there is also no doubt that he genuinely cares about things and people other than himself.

    Boris cares about Boris.

    They are not the same.
    Does he? My distinct impression of him is that he cares about himself and his mates.

    That would explain the manifesto full of bungs to his supporters and full of claims about how he would tax everyone and everything else into oblivion, even though none of his figures stood up to anything remotely resembling scrutiny. It would also explain the frankly weird appointments he has made in the shadow cabinet and the private office, and the claimed 'not total' pacifist who supports terrorism.

    Of course, from that point of view he is a very typical socialist, because after all they care about abstract ideas and their own wealth and comfort, not people, but I don't think of him as fundamentally different from Johnson.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.

    Personally they are very different, as are their motivations. But what they represent, what methods they use and what they will in practice deliver are pretty much identical.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    For breakfast it’s marmite, or marmite.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.
    Agreed. Boris & Jeremy are not the same.

    They are also not British versions of Trump.

    Jeremy is also not anti-semitic. Boris is also not a racist.

    Unfortunately, Brexit and Corby-mania has driven Southam completely mad.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,703
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    Rory Stewart will be out by Tuesday, he is basically a Lib Dem

    British voters:
    25% Genuine Conservative (vote Brexit Party etc)
    20% Genuine Labour (like Corbyn etc)
    55% Basically LibDems
    Fair enough, the problem is some on PB want 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs (plus of course it depends on the issue on crime, immigration etc voters tend to take a harder line then the LDs and they also back renationalising the railways etc unlike the LDs)
    Can you tell us who you think on PB "wants 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs"? I haven't had this impression in over 10 years of reading the comments.

    It would have to be a pretty rare person who is interested in politics, their opinions lie in the middle or staddle the political spectrum and then be against the exixstence of parties to the left or the right. The LDs even have "democrats" in their name.
    My experience of PB-ers through the years is that many want the LDs to replace Labour as the opposition to the Tories AND at the same time to support Tory policies.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.
    Corbyn may be misguided in some of his ideology and has not done enough to stop antisemitism and abuse in Labour, but there is also no doubt that he genuinely cares about things and people other than himself.

    Boris cares about Boris.

    They are not the same.
    Yes, from the centre I would agree with that. Corbyn has strong views and principles, and remarkably low ambition for a top tier politician. You don’t need to like or agree with his views to see that he has them. Boris has barely any views, no principles, and tons of ambition.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.

    Personally they are very different, as are their motivations. But what they represent, what methods they use and what they will in practice deliver are pretty much identical.

    Nah. Different in motivations, methods and outcomes and problematical in different ways.

    For example

    Corbyn has been banging on about the issues he cares about, fashionable or not for 40 years. He hasn’t changed his mind once in that time. When he ceases to be Labour leader he will carry on.

    Meanwhile Boris believes in whatever will help Boris at that moment.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    IanB2 said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    For breakfast it’s marmite, or marmite.

    I like marmite!

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.
    Agreed. Boris & Jeremy are not the same.

    They are also not British versions of Trump.

    Jeremy is also not anti-semitic. Boris is also not a racist.

    Unfortunately, Brexit and Corby-mania has driven Southam completely mad.
    I am very far from sure I would say Boris is 'not a racist.'

    Even allowing for an element of hatchet jobbing, this is a pretty damning list:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/boris-johnson-s-racist-insults-dog-whistles-and-slurs

    As for Corbyn, he thinks he is not an anti-Semite. That is not altogether the same thing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    Rory Stewart will be out by Tuesday, he is basically a Lib Dem

    British voters:
    25% Genuine Conservative (vote Brexit Party etc)
    20% Genuine Labour (like Corbyn etc)
    55% Basically LibDems
    Fair enough, the problem is some on PB want 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs (plus of course it depends on the issue on crime, immigration etc voters tend to take a harder line then the LDs and they also back renationalising the railways etc unlike the LDs)
    Can you tell us who you think on PB "wants 100% of our political parties to basically be LDs"? I haven't had this impression in over 10 years of reading the comments.

    It would have to be a pretty rare person who is interested in politics, their opinions lie in the middle or staddle the political spectrum and then be against the exixstence of parties to the left or the right. The LDs even have "democrats" in their name.
    My experience of PB-ers through the years is that many want the LDs to replace Labour as the opposition to the Tories AND at the same time to support Tory policies.
    Which is odd since the Tories’ best friend in politics is the Labour Party as its only opposition.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088

    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.

    Personally they are very different, as are their motivations. But what they represent, what methods they use and what they will in practice deliver are pretty much identical.

    No, not really. Unusual for you to let your prejudices overwhelm your usually sharp judgement.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    Jonathan said:

    Nah. Different in motivations, methods and outcomes and problematical in different ways.

    For example

    Corbyn has been banging on about the issues he cares about, fashionable or not for 40 years. He hasn’t changed his mind once in that time.

    So you're saying he is still a Leaver? And that when he first opposed welfare cuts to get elected leader, and then supported them to try and win a general election, that wasn't changing his mind?

    As for the rest, has it occured to you that while distinctly niche interests, those campaigns were popular with Labour voters in first Haringey and then Islington - the people he needed to support him? When he started running the party he just changed his policies to fit with the new electorate.

    He's a Trump/Johnson/Chavez style populist.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson are not the same, just as Ebola and anthrax are not the same. That doesn’t mean that I’d be rushing to contract either of them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    IanB2 said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    For breakfast it’s marmite, or marmite.

    I like marmite!

    At yeast you can enjoy something?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:


    I am very far from sure I would say Boris is 'not a racist.'

    Even allowing for an element of hatchet jobbing, this is a pretty damning list:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/boris-johnson-s-racist-insults-dog-whistles-and-slurs

    As for Corbyn, he thinks he is not an anti-Semite. That is not altogether the same thing.

    Really, is writing a poem about Erdogan having sex with a goat racist ? Or quoting Kipling ?

    I don't want to end up defending Boris (someone I rather dislike), but much of that list is just flimsy.

    There is also a danger if terms like "racism" or "antisemitism" are weakened to meaninglessness, in my opinion.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson are not the same, just as Ebola and anthrax are not the same. That doesn’t mean that I’d be rushing to contract either of them.

    Surely syphilis and gonorrhoea? Defiled by intimate contact and bits drop off without the right treatment before you go insane and die.

    But they're not the same, exactly.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.

    Personally they are very different, as are their motivations. But what they represent, what methods they use and what they will in practice deliver are pretty much identical.

    Nah. Different in motivations, methods and outcomes and problematical in different ways.

    For example

    Corbyn has been banging on about the issues he cares about, fashionable or not for 40 years. He hasn’t changed his mind once in that time. When he ceases to be Labour leader he will carry on.

    Meanwhile Boris believes in whatever will help Boris at that moment.

    Yes, they have very different motivations. Both have spent years standing shoulder to shoulder with racists to get what they want, though.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    ydoethur said:


    I am very far from sure I would say Boris is 'not a racist.'

    Even allowing for an element of hatchet jobbing, this is a pretty damning list:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/boris-johnson-s-racist-insults-dog-whistles-and-slurs

    As for Corbyn, he thinks he is not an anti-Semite. That is not altogether the same thing.

    Really, is writing a poem about Erdogan having sex with a goat racist ? Or quoting Kipling ?

    I don't want to end up defending Boris (someone I rather dislike), but much of that list is just flimsy.

    There is also a danger if terms like "racism" or "antisemitism" are weakened to meaninglessness, in my opinion.
    To the first, couldn't care less about Erdogan. He deserves it. In that context, yes, to the second. As for what he called the Africans or Papua New Guineans...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,073

    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.

    Yep, the motivations are different. The end result is the same. Both are happy to pander to racists to achieve their aims. Both avoid scrutiny. Both are prepared to see their supporters harry and harass the media. Both are going to inflict significant damage on the UK, perhaps to the point of destroying it. They are two British versions of Trump - and are just as divisive and destructive. It is true, though, that Johnson does seem to inspire slightly more affection among slightly more people than Corbyn. But far less than he used to.

    Oh come on, they’re clearly not the same.

    Personally they are very different, as are their motivations. But what they represent, what methods they use and what they will in practice deliver are pretty much identical.

    They are both deeply flawed individuals, with Corbyn having a mental rigidity that rivals May.

    Johnson is just over entitled English Public School privilege encapsulated in one person. A classic example of the belief that an amateur winging it without proper preparation and not listening to advice is a suitable way to run a country.

    We do not need evidence from supermarket anecdotes that he is like this,there is plenty in the public domain. Indeed, like many other arrogant toddlers he doesn't see for to hide it, such is his sense of entitlement.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited June 2019
    Anyway, before I go I think we are all missing the most serious news today:

    Gulf of Oman tanker attacks: US says video shows Iran removing mine https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-48633016

    If this stands up, it seems likely there will be war between the US and Iran before the end of July.

    It will be very nasty.

    And on that cheerful note, have a good morning.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:


    I am very far from sure I would say Boris is 'not a racist.'

    Even allowing for an element of hatchet jobbing, this is a pretty damning list:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/boris-johnson-s-racist-insults-dog-whistles-and-slurs

    As for Corbyn, he thinks he is not an anti-Semite. That is not altogether the same thing.

    Really, is writing a poem about Erdogan having sex with a goat racist ? Or quoting Kipling ?

    I don't want to end up defending Boris (someone I rather dislike), but much of that list is just flimsy.

    There is also a danger if terms like "racism" or "antisemitism" are weakened to meaninglessness, in my opinion.
    To the first, couldn't care less about Erdogan. He deserves it. In that context, yes, to the second. As for what he called the Africans or Papua New Guineans...
    Kipling .. I think Foxy has it right in his description of Boris as entitled public school privilege.

    "Let me show you I know Kipling off by heart. You don't know it do you. Jolly good stuff."

    I'd describe that attitude as insensitive, childish, & egocentric.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.
    Corbyn may be misguided in some of his ideology and has not done enough to stop antisemitism and abuse in Labour, but there is also no doubt that he genuinely cares about things and people other than himself.

    Boris cares about Boris.

    They are not the same.
    Yes, from the centre I would agree with that. Corbyn has strong views and principles, and remarkably low ambition for a top tier politician. You don’t need to like or agree with his views to see that he has them. Boris has barely any views, no principles, and tons of ambition.
    It's probably true that Johnson is first and foremost a chancer, but he does have views, or at least prejudices.

    I think one of the big divides in politics is between those who believe in the Just World Hypothesis and those who don't. Johnson gives the impression of fully believing, for example, that those who are rich are rich because they deserve it and those who are poor are poor because they deserve it. Hence his one policy so far of a tax cut for the rich. This is another difference with Corbyn.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    edited June 2019
    kamski said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    The stand-out stat for me in the Ipsos-Mori polling was just how narrow Johnson's lead was over Corbyn. Six points is nothing compared to the big leads Theresa may and Don't Know have enjoyed over him on a regular basis.

    Corbyn hasn't been in the news this week.. Wait till he opens his gob.. Anyone, even a grub would have a lead over Corbyn. Thoroughly nasty individual , unfit to be PM

    Corbyn and Johnson are two peas in a pod.
    That's a rather simplistic view - I think they're very different. Corbyn is driven by an underlying ideology: a disastrous and diseased ideology that has led him into the depths of anti-Semitism, but an ideology nonetheless.

    Boris's ideology is Boris Johnson. He will do whatever he thinks is best for Boris Johnson and his friends, not the country. Hence the Garden Bridge debacle.

    Both Corbyn and Boris are dangerous to the country in different ways. Boris does have the advantage of being outwardly likeable to many, though.
    Corbyn may be misguided in some of his ideology and has not done enough to stop antisemitism and abuse in Labour, but there is also no doubt that he genuinely cares about things and people other than himself.

    Boris cares about Boris.

    They are not the same.
    Yes, from the centre I would agree with that. Corbyn has strong views and principles, and remarkably low ambition for a top tier politician. You don’t need to like or agree with his views to see that he has them. Boris has barely any views, no principles, and tons of ambition.
    It's probably true that Johnson is first and foremost a chancer, but he does have views, or at least prejudices.

    I think one of the big divides in politics is between those who believe in the Just World Hypothesis and those who don't. Johnson gives the impression of fully believing, for example, that those who are rich are rich because they deserve it and those who are poor are poor because they deserve it. Hence his one policy so far of a tax cut for the rich. This is another difference with Corbyn.
    Or maybe he's cynically just worked out how to pass a bung to Tory members? Remarkable that his tax cut directs the biggest benefit to higher earning retirees, when the "logic" (as I understand it) of Tory tax cutting is normally focused on incentives for wealth creation.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,031
    Stewart is now shorter than Gove on Betfair.

    That’s crazy.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Greater (Not Often) Spotted Boris Watch - Update :

    Following extensive twitcher reports yesterday of a rare sighting of the Greater (Not Often) Spotted Boris in the Westminster area there is growing speculation that this over large member of the corvid family has once again gone to ground.

    Watchers will be aware that this vast scavenger will look to feast on the carcasses of recently deceased fellow members of the crow family (Conservative Ravens of Westminster). Other distinguishing features of this particular male include :

    1. Dark blue plumage with highly exposed white tail feathers and blond tufts
    2. Over sized male breasts
    3. Stuttering and highly variable bird calls
    4. Very public promiscuous reproductive behaviour with multiple mates
    5. Highly attractive to similar lower order magpies and jackdaws
    6. A massive bill often noted in preening and vanity exercises
    7. Nests close to bunkers and smaller island airports
    8. Related to one sub species of the North American White House Popin-Jay
    9. A frantic but very private leadership and dominance dance normally occurs every two years.


  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, before I go I think we are all missing the most serious news today:

    Gulf of Oman tanker attacks: US says video shows Iran removing mine https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-48633016

    If this stands up, it seems likely there will be war between the US and Iran before the end of July.

    It will be very nasty.

    And on that cheerful note, have a good morning.

    What would PM Johnson do, join in?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,073

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:


    I am very far from sure I would say Boris is 'not a racist.'

    Even allowing for an element of hatchet jobbing, this is a pretty damning list:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/boris-johnson-s-racist-insults-dog-whistles-and-slurs

    As for Corbyn, he thinks he is not an anti-Semite. That is not altogether the same thing.

    Really, is writing a poem about Erdogan having sex with a goat racist ? Or quoting Kipling ?

    I don't want to end up defending Boris (someone I rather dislike), but much of that list is just flimsy.

    There is also a danger if terms like "racism" or "antisemitism" are weakened to meaninglessness, in my opinion.
    To the first, couldn't care less about Erdogan. He deserves it. In that context, yes, to the second. As for what he called the Africans or Papua New Guineans...
    Kipling .. I think Foxy has it right in his description of Boris as entitled public school privilege.

    "Let me show you I know Kipling off by heart. You don't know it do you. Jolly good stuff."

    I'd describe that attitude as insensitive, childish, & egocentric.
    Reciting Kipling at the Shwedegon pagoda was an interesting insight to the man-child. It is a magnificent and highly revered site, one that I have visited myself.

    I think it unlikely that Johnson had committed enough Kipling to memory at school to be able to recite it, decades later. I think that he re-read it on the way there in preparation, in preference to his briefing papers on the country. Fortunately the British Diplomat cut him short before he insulted the Buddha at Yangon 's holiest site.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    You can lay Andrea Leadsom, who is now out of the leadership race, at a shorter price than Matt Hancock, who is still in it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,031

    You can lay Andrea Leadsom, who is now out of the leadership race, at a shorter price than Matt Hancock, who is still in it.

    Lolz.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    edited June 2019
    The selection of bad quotes about Boris from Ashcroft's focus groups of 2017 Tory voters:

    “He’s a compulsive liar;”
    "He had two articles written, one Leave, one Remain;”
    “A cheater;”
    “Round the bend;”
    “I don’t trust him;”
    “He’s great at telling people what they want to hear, Boris, so he’ll just go wherever. That’s a bit of a danger;”
    “I don’t think he’s normal at all, I think he’s very peculiar;”
    “A devious individual and he’s doing everything to attract attention to himself;”
    “He’s incredibly personable but he doesn’t care about genuine people, I don’t think.”
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,073
    There are a fair number of Tories here who think Johnson will save them from electoral oblivion. I don't believe that to be the case, but understand the reasons why.

    Other than that, is there anyone willing to speak up for him to say that he is suitable to the role of Prime Minister?
  • PloppikinsPloppikins Posts: 126
    Reading all of this, it's a serious case of 'grass is always greener'. 2010-2015 was rife with complaints about identikit politicians you couldn't get a cigarette paper between. Does anyone remember the name of that 40-something, fresh faced, sharp suited, media trained, Oxbridge educated, metropolitan liberal who led that major party back then?? Think it was something like Cameronleggiband?

    Now we've got a genuine choice and people are up in arms! You can have proper socialism. You can have a right wing government. Hell you can even have a party that accepts capitalism but wants it to be a bit fairer (LDs... and don't tell me it's a wasted vote, they were in power 4 years ago). So is it really that bad? Or is the rhetoric more divisive because people now have a real choice?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, before I go I think we are all missing the most serious news today:

    Gulf of Oman tanker attacks: US says video shows Iran removing mine https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-48633016

    If this stands up, it seems likely there will be war between the US and Iran before the end of July.

    It will be very nasty.

    And on that cheerful note, have a good morning.

    Hope we stay out. Questions need to asked,, and answered, by our line up of potential PMs.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Stewart is now shorter than Gove on Betfair.

    That’s crazy.

    Gove wearing "lifts"?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    You can lay Andrea Leadsom, who is now out of the leadership race, at a shorter price than Matt Hancock, who is still in it.

    Lolz.
    The Leadsom betting price is the funniest thing all year. Now out the race and the bot still thinks she has a chance !
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    Anna Soubry's constituency

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    Stapleford South East (Broxtowe) result:

    LDEM: 44.3% (+19.8)
    CON: 30.1% (-0.3)
    LAB: 25.5% (-2.9)

    No Stapleford Alliance (-16.6) as prev.

    Liberal Democrat GAIN (X2) from Conservative.
    23:31 - 13 Jun 2019
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263



    Now we've got a genuine choice and people are up in arms! You can have proper socialism. You can have a right wing government. Hell you can even have a party that accepts capitalism but wants it to be a bit fairer (LDs... and don't tell me it's a wasted vote, they were in power 4 years ago). So is it really that bad? Or is the rhetoric more divisive because people now have a real choice?

    I know, but I STILL meet voters who say "all the parties are the same"!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Scott_P said:
    Shame she’s not very good at it. Probably still doing just enough to secure that job in cabinet.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited June 2019

    You can lay Andrea Leadsom, who is now out of the leadership race, at a shorter price than Matt Hancock, who is still in it.

    Lolz.
    Leadsom, backed by the Prince of Whales
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    Anna Soubry's constituency

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    Stapleford South East (Broxtowe) result:

    LDEM: 44.3% (+19.8)
    CON: 30.1% (-0.3)
    LAB: 25.5% (-2.9)

    No Stapleford Alliance (-16.6) as prev.

    Liberal Democrat GAIN (X2) from Conservative.
    23:31 - 13 Jun 2019

    And still they think no deal Brexit is the road to salvation ...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    DavidL said:

    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.

    You'd be in a horrible place in the Tory betting if you'd followed all the above the line advice on Boris, especially if you missed the Hunt tip !
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    edited June 2019

    Anna Soubry's constituency

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    Stapleford South East (Broxtowe) result:

    LDEM: 44.3% (+19.8)
    CON: 30.1% (-0.3)
    LAB: 25.5% (-2.9)

    No Stapleford Alliance (-16.6) as prev.

    Liberal Democrat GAIN (X2) from Conservative.
    23:31 - 13 Jun 2019

    Tbf the Stapleford Alliance was a LibDem splinter group, so you could say there has only been a small swing toward the LibDems overall. Nevertheless its a creditable result, and may change who runs the local council.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    The basic rule of politics is that we always get the correct result because thats what people chose to vote for. I know that I am a better person than my main opponent in the locals, but they won, we lost, so people get what they want.

    Boris is all of the criticisms and accusations that get thrown at him. But so what if thats what people want. This was my point about the Trump visit - I may find him reprehensible but he was elected President so its not for me to say Americans are wrong if thats what they want.

    Right now the Tory party has (largely) forgotten what "Conservative" means. If they want Johnson then great - he's fit to lead the party. If Johnson then wins an election he's fit to lead the country.

    Thats what democracy is.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    BBC says Hancock may be on the point of pulling out.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013

    The basic rule of politics is that we always get the correct result because thats what people chose to vote for. I know that I am a better person than my main opponent in the locals, but they won, we lost, so people get what they want.

    Boris is all of the criticisms and accusations that get thrown at him. But so what if thats what people want. This was my point about the Trump visit - I may find him reprehensible but he was elected President so its not for me to say Americans are wrong if thats what they want.

    Right now the Tory party has (largely) forgotten what "Conservative" means. If they want Johnson then great - he's fit to lead the party. If Johnson then wins an election he's fit to lead the country.

    Thats what democracy is.

    Under FPTP? You have got to be joking
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    If they want Johnson then great - he's fit to lead the party. If Johnson then wins an election he's fit to lead the country.

    Thats what democracy is.

    That is demonstrably fallacious.

    Corbyn is not fit to lead Labour. With almost any other leader they would be miles ahead.

    Trump is not fit to lead America. He's doing it, but that doesn't make him fit.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,225
    Pulpstar said:

    You can lay Andrea Leadsom, who is now out of the leadership race, at a shorter price than Matt Hancock, who is still in it.

    Lolz.
    The Leadsom betting price is the funniest thing all year. Now out the race and the bot still thinks she has a chance !
    It's a real puzzle.

    We've had instances before of supporters manipulating the betting markets in the hope of creating an illusion of support. One of the earliest and most famous of these involved Clement Freud during a Liberal Party Leadership contest. More spectacularly, the Romney team primed Intrade during his contest with Obama, allowing many on here to arb happily with the prices on Betfair.

    The Leadsome case is a bit odd though. She never had the faintest chance, and it would have been an expensive way to create support. Few people outside this niche Site would have noticed the betting anomoly and it's hard to believe more than a tiny handful of people would have been misled or inflenced by her absurd price.

    Somebody must have a lot more money than sense, or there are more crap punters out there than we thought.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    In response to @Philip_Thompson (fpt)

    “It takes two to tango.

    If the EU refuses to give us a decent deal then what are we supposed to do?

    If the EU says you can Brexit and we can give you a trade deal but you must sign up that you will follow our laws in full, you won't get a say in them and there is no way out of this agreement then are we just supposed to sign that?

    If they said you can exit but instead of paying £9bn per annum we now want you to pay £18bn are we just supposed to sign that?”


    Welcome to the world of power politics where the stronger party imposes its will on the weaker party if it has something which the latter wants. What you describe are known as trade offs. They were pointed out to the Brexiteers both before and after the referendum result. They chose to sack those who did the pointing out and have had a prolonged tantrum ever since at the fact that Britain does not get its way. They have resorted instead to living in a fantasy world and, judging by what the likely candidates for leadership are saying, are still in that fantasy world.

    As a result at some point soon the brutal realities of power politics will be felt by this country.

    We could do without a FTA with the EU but this will likely have serious economic consequences for the country. Is that what people wanted? Or was it for a deal which could be signed in an afternoon?

    It’s too much to expect, I suppose, for a party seemingly intent on electing a habitual liar as leader to be honest with the voters.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, before I go I think we are all missing the most serious news today:

    Gulf of Oman tanker attacks: US says video shows Iran removing mine https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-48633016

    If this stands up, it seems likely there will be war between the US and Iran before the end of July.

    It will be very nasty.

    And on that cheerful note, have a good morning.

    Just in time to spike oil prices for IndyRef2
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    IanB2 said:

    BBC says Hancock may be on the point of pulling out.

    Telegraph understands he will back Javid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    DavidL said:

    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.

    We moan about Corbyns flaws all the time, I dont see any reason not to do so with Boris, particularly when the Tories nationally are in the process of making him leader of this country.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088

    Pulpstar said:

    You can lay Andrea Leadsom, who is now out of the leadership race, at a shorter price than Matt Hancock, who is still in it.

    Lolz.
    The Leadsom betting price is the funniest thing all year. Now out the race and the bot still thinks she has a chance !
    It's a real puzzle.

    We've had instances before of supporters manipulating the betting markets in the hope of creating an illusion of support. One of the earliest and most famous of these involved Clement Freud during a Liberal Party Leadership contest. More spectacularly, the Romney team primed Intrade during his contest with Obama, allowing many on here to arb happily with the prices on Betfair.

    The Leadsome case is a bit odd though. She never had the faintest chance, and it would have been an expensive way to create support. Few people outside this niche Site would have noticed the betting anomoly and it's hard to believe more than a tiny handful of people would have been misled or inflenced by her absurd price.

    Somebody must have a lot more money than sense, or there are more crap punters out there than we thought.
    These things seem to happen on BFE. I remember in the runup to 30 March, someone was putting lumps of round £thousands on a no deal exit at the end of that week, even as it was becoming obvious we would get an extension.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.

    You'd be in a horrible place in the Tory betting if you'd followed all the above the line advice on Boris, especially if you missed the Hunt tip !
    Indeed. I read several forecasts yesterday morning that his votes were going to be below the declared supporters. Its not analysis, its plain dislike and bias. Previously we were repeatedly told that he would not make the final 2 and that he would be blocked by Tory MPs. Hey ho.

    Boris is not a monster. He has many faults but he is also clever, witty, a reasonable delegator and someone not frightened of ideas. He is colour in a world of black and white. That has drawbacks sometimes but it is also interesting in a way that most politicians aren't. There are several others in this leadership race that I would prefer but this site is losing its sense of perspective.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    Reading all of this, it's a serious case of 'grass is always greener'. 2010-2015 was rife with complaints about identikit politicians you couldn't get a cigarette paper between. Does anyone remember the name of that 40-something, fresh faced, sharp suited, media trained, Oxbridge educated, metropolitan liberal who led that major party back then?? Think it was something like Cameronleggiband?

    Now we've got a genuine choice and people are up in arms! You can have proper socialism. You can have a right wing government. Hell you can even have a party that accepts capitalism but wants it to be a bit fairer (LDs... and don't tell me it's a wasted vote, they were in power 4 years ago). So is it really that bad? Or is the rhetoric more divisive because people now have a real choice?

    Haha well said
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    IanB2 said:

    Anna Soubry's constituency

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    Stapleford South East (Broxtowe) result:

    LDEM: 44.3% (+19.8)
    CON: 30.1% (-0.3)
    LAB: 25.5% (-2.9)

    No Stapleford Alliance (-16.6) as prev.

    Liberal Democrat GAIN (X2) from Conservative.
    23:31 - 13 Jun 2019

    Tbf the Stapleford Alliance was a LibDem splinter group, so you could say there has only been a small swing toward the LibDems overall. Nevertheless its a creditable result, and may change who runs the local council.
    I believe this result keeps a Lab led coalition running things.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    DavidL said:

    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.

    The "prize" is the tenancy pf 10 Downing Street. The scrutiny should be forensic and, if necessary, excoriating especially as the favourite has become uncharacteristically demur and shy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    IanB2 said:

    BBC says Hancock may be on the point of pulling out.

    Telegraph understands he will back Javid.
    Another mistake because Javid should also be pulling out. He needs to support someone who has a real chance of winning.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Scott_P said:

    If they want Johnson then great - he's fit to lead the party. If Johnson then wins an election he's fit to lead the country.

    Thats what democracy is.

    That is demonstrably fallacious.

    Corbyn is not fit to lead Labour. With almost any other leader they would be miles ahead.

    Trump is not fit to lead America. He's doing it, but that doesn't make him fit.
    I think when Rp says if x is elected by y then x is fit for the job is really missing the words “is fit in the eyes of those electing him/her”
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,031
    Pulpstar said:

    You can lay Andrea Leadsom, who is now out of the leadership race, at a shorter price than Matt Hancock, who is still in it.

    Lolz.
    The Leadsom betting price is the funniest thing all year. Now out the race and the bot still thinks she has a chance !
    Tempting as it is to hoover up whatever I can I have better things to do with my money over the next five weeks.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    DavidL said:

    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.

    Nothing more tedious than the phrase "virtue signalling".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,031
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.

    You'd be in a horrible place in the Tory betting if you'd followed all the above the line advice on Boris, especially if you missed the Hunt tip !
    Indeed. I read several forecasts yesterday morning that his votes were going to be below the declared supporters. Its not analysis, its plain dislike and bias. Previously we were repeatedly told that he would not make the final 2 and that he would be blocked by Tory MPs. Hey ho.

    Boris is not a monster. He has many faults but he is also clever, witty, a reasonable delegator and someone not frightened of ideas. He is colour in a world of black and white. That has drawbacks sometimes but it is also interesting in a way that most politicians aren't. There are several others in this leadership race that I would prefer but this site is losing its sense of perspective.
    Boris will be tolerable as premier only if he delegates wisely and efficiently to a string of very talented number twos.

    That’s why his mayoralty was a success.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:
    The problem with Orwell's aphorism is it implies the status quo can never change. Clearly incumbency confers an advantage but that’s not the same as “control”
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    edited June 2019
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    The usual completely over the top nonsense about Johnson this morning. Is this a competition and if so what's the prize? If its just virtue signalling its getting a tad tedious.

    You'd be in a horrible place in the Tory betting if you'd followed all the above the line advice on Boris, especially if you missed the Hunt tip !
    Indeed. I read several forecasts yesterday morning that his votes were going to be below the declared supporters. Its not analysis, its plain dislike and bias. Previously we were repeatedly told that he would not make the final 2 and that he would be blocked by Tory MPs. Hey ho.

    Boris is not a monster. He has many faults but he is also clever, witty, a reasonable delegator and someone not frightened of ideas. He is colour in a world of black and white. That has drawbacks sometimes but it is also interesting in a way that most politicians aren't. There are several others in this leadership race that I would prefer but this site is losing its sense of perspective.
    Its an understandable reaction to having someone so dangerously unsuitable installed as our national leader without our having any say in the matter.

    The Americans got Trump, but at least he got in through a nationwide election.

    The Tories really haven't thought about the potential backlash if things do indeed to pear shaped.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Take a look at who Vox, the Spanish far right anti-immigrant party, have aligned with in the European Parliament. This should be a huge controversy but probably won’t be.

    Yep, the anti-immigrant, Soros-conspiracist, Franco-nostalgic, anti-equality, Bannon-promoted Vox party will sit with the Tories in the European parliament. Hard right English nationalists and far right Spanish nationalists in perfect harmony - as long as you do not mention Gibraltar.

    Yuck!

    Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson are not the same, just as Ebola and anthrax are not the same. That doesn’t mean that I’d be rushing to contract either of them.

    They’re the same in important ways: both extremely likely to kill you.
This discussion has been closed.