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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:
    Still a hung parliament on that and ignore the headline and look at the provinces e.g. Trudeau still leads big in Quebec and is about tied in Ontario where most of the marginal seats are, the Tories mainly from Alberta shere they are polling well over 50%. Trudeau also still tends to lead as best PM and as Australia proved recently the incumbent can still win if they lead on that even if their party trails. Incidentally my sister met Trudeau recently at the Southsea D Day commemorations where she was performing with the First Aid Nursing Yeomanary and he was quite charismatic in person so would not rule him out yet.

    That said if the Tories to win their leader Andrew Scheer is a big Brexit backer and would happily speed through a FTA with PM Boris (though Trudeau has said he would go a trade deal too)
  • LondonTownLondonTown Posts: 4
    edited June 2019
    FF43 said:

    I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.

    Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.

    So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.

    Welcome.

    The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.

    The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
    Thanks for the welcome.

    That was the previous EU parliament's negotiations. It's not clear what will happen now.

    Does anyone know if the EU's main negotiators Michel Barnier and Donald Tusk are still in power after the election?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    isam said:

    If the Conservatives in their current form were to disappear, would they be missed?

    Lib Dems, and to an extent UKIP/BXP or Farage for short, have shown that parties can come back from a period of irrelevance
    Too true.

    If you look in the archives, you'll see a lot of PB posts about how the LDs would take decades to recover from the coalition (if it ever happened). Yet here we are in 2019, and the LDs just beat the Tories and Labour in a nationwide election.

    The LDs could retreat to zero or end up in power. (And the same is true of the Brexit Party.)
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    IanB2 said:

    C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.

    According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    Dadge said:

    isam said:

    AndyJS said:

    isam said:

    Strange scenes on last nights This Week, was Michael Portillo, who has been criticial of Boris Johnson for 16 years, and cheered Michael Gove to the rafters for stopping him being PM in 2017, said Johnson by a landslide would be a great thing (The reason being a canddate winning by a landslide is better than a narrow win, he still thinks Boris is bad)

    Interesting, I missed the show last night.

    I think if Boris gets an immediate boost in the opinion polls he'll probably go for a snap election. But it would have to be a very big boost given the Tories are currently on 17%.
    I cant see The Brexit Party competing with Boris led Conservatives committed to an Oct 31 departure, and they are 26% of the latest opinion poll.
    It would certainly be a dilemma for Farage. I think lots of his supporters would prefer in a snap election to back Boris. So if the Brexit Party stands it risks denying Boris the majority he needs. At the same time, can Farage trust Boris? (a) to achieve a Hard Brexit majority and (b) to carry out No Deal.

    Lots of lovely drama still to come.
    This is the great unknown, would Farage do a deal with Boris, and vice versa ? They would be fools not to - I can't see Brexit getting over 100 seats ANY other way whatever the polls would say.
    No way could I see Boris or any Tory leader doing a deal with Farage.
    As a Remainer, would you rather have Boris or Nigel as PM? :)
    Possibly Nigel. Leave.EU advocated Richard North's "Flexit", which involved a phased withdrawal. Plus (although I think he is anti-Muslim), he's not racist in the usually accepted sense. Plus he is a former metals dealer who entered politics, grew or resurrected two parties, engineered a referendum and won it. Plus he isn't in Bannon's pocket.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    The party that Charles describes no longer exists. It died on June 2016.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,225

    Dadge said:

    isam said:

    AndyJS said:

    isam said:

    Strange scenes on last nights This Week, was Michael Portillo, who has been criticial of Boris Johnson for 16 years, and cheered Michael Gove to the rafters for stopping him being PM in 2017, said Johnson by a landslide would be a great thing (The reason being a canddate winning by a landslide is better than a narrow win, he still thinks Boris is bad)

    Interesting, I missed the show last night.

    I think if Boris gets an immediate boost in the opinion polls he'll probably go for a snap election. But it would have to be a very big boost given the Tories are currently on 17%.
    I cant see The Brexit Party competing with Boris led Conservatives committed to an Oct 31 departure, and they are 26% of the latest opinion poll.
    It would certainly be a dilemma for Farage. I think lots of his supporters would prefer in a snap election to back Boris. So if the Brexit Party stands it risks denying Boris the majority he needs. At the same time, can Farage trust Boris? (a) to achieve a Hard Brexit majority and (b) to carry out No Deal.

    Lots of lovely drama still to come.
    This is the great unknown, would Farage do a deal with Boris, and vice versa ? They would be fools not to - I can't see Brexit getting over 100 seats ANY other way whatever the polls would say.
    No way could I see Boris or any Tory leader doing a deal with Farage.
    As a Remainer, would you rather have Boris or Nigel as PM? :)
    Boris. I still don't think he really believes in Brexit.
    He doesn't believe in anything much really.
  • Viceroy_of_OrangeViceroy_of_Orange Posts: 172
    edited June 2019

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.

    What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?

    I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
    Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
    I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.

    It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.

    And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
    "Adhering to democratic norms" implies that you do think the government should be constrained by certain constitutional principles and it shouldn't just be the case that the majority can do what they like. It is a good thing if one of those democratic norms means not being able to trample on the rights of individual citizens in respect of their position within a broader European Union.
    I would take the view that Attlee's government was indeed constrained by constitutional principles, notwithstanding that we were not part of the EU. A vigorous democratic culture is the best means of protecting constitutional principles.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    I feel sorry for Conservative MPs in the Remainer-belt with LDs breathing down their necks.*

    * Except for Zac Goldsmith. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Lol at the remaining leadership contenders praise Hancock’s “campaign”.

    It lasted about two days and was basically “David Brent does Westminster”.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.

    What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?

    I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
    Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
    I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.

    It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.

    And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
    Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?

    Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?

    If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
    I would indeed be against the ECHR in principle.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,225

    On topic, I agree with Richard.

    For the Conservative Party to throw away their USP is madness.

    I expect Boris to rat and take the path of least resistance.

    What is the Conservative Party really for? I used to know that in the 80s and 90s under Thatcher and Major (although I never supported them), and I still kind of get their (very niche) USP in Scotland. But what about England? Can anybody summarise the Con USP in one short paragraph? Important caveat: without mentioning Brexit.
    Richard has explained it well at the end of his thread header.

    The point is that it now risks losing it.
    You mean: “pragmatism, business-friendly financial discipline, and facing up to difficult decisions”?

    They lost those three USPs many years ago. Please don’t embarrass yourself by asking us to list all the legion examples of the Conservatives being unpragmatic, running away from difficult decisions, financial ill-discipline and telling business to go FO.
    You’re a partisan anti-Conservative who sees them as the biggest obstacle to Scottish nationalism, so I wouldn’t expect you to post an objective view.
    Nonsense. The biggest obstacle to Scottish independence is SLab, and they are well and truly done in finest missionary style.

    The SCons are a side-show.

    It looks like you are just begging for a long list of examples of the Conservatives being unpragmatic, running away from difficult decisions, financial ill-discipline and telling business to go FO.
    You've proved my point for me.

    You made up your mind long before you even posed the question (which was clearly purely rhetorical) so there is no point engaging with you on the subject.
    It's a common enough technique here on PB.com. You start from where you want to be and construct your argument to justify that position.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rcs1000 said:

    I feel sorry for Conservative MPs in the Remainer-belt with LDs breathing down their necks.*

    * Except for Zac Goldsmith. I don't feel sorry for him at all.

    None of them deserve any sympathy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.

    Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.

    So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.

    It means that the EPP will need to be propped up by the even more virulently federalist ALDE, so that's bound to work out well for the UK.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,225

    rcs1000 said:

    I feel sorry for Conservative MPs in the Remainer-belt with LDs breathing down their necks.*

    * Except for Zac Goldsmith. I don't feel sorry for him at all.

    None of them deserve any sympathy.
    A little. Personally I'd allow their hearings to be deferred a few months when the show trials begin.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    rcs1000 said:

    I feel sorry for Conservative MPs in the Remainer-belt with LDs breathing down their necks.*

    * Except for Zac Goldsmith. I don't feel sorry for him at all.

    None of them deserve any sympathy.
    How long until Greening defects?
  • Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
  • MauveMauve Posts: 129
    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.

    Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.

    So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.

    Welcome.

    The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.

    The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
    And if their conditions cannot be net then they are not negotiating in good faith
    Things I really hate about the 21st century
    ==================================
    1: tattoos
    2: facial tattoos
    3: people who say "thanks" when the mean "please"
    4: people who say "are you alright" instead of "can I help you"
    5: the phrase "bring you along"
    6: the phrase "reach out"
    7: the ability of people to alter others' behaviour by screaming on Twitter
    8: vaping
    9: the incorrect use of the terms "in good faith" and "in utmost good faith"
    10: cheek piercing and flesh tunnels
    I have to say, that's a good list. The only point I'd disagree with is vaping. It's saved me a fortune, stopped me stinking like an ashtray, and probably extended my life expectancy significantly. But I understand how it can annoy other people so I don't blow huge clouds everywhere.

    Being the out of touch old git I am, I'll admit to having to look up what a flesh tunnel was too :/
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005

    Sean_F said:

    If the Conservatives in their current form were to disappear, would they be missed?


    I don't think it matters whether they do disappear or not. Someone else will represent centre-right voters, and eurosceptic voters.
    We'll notice if it is the Brexit Party. they will have some, er, interesting candidates elected if they replace the Tories.
    And what exactly is the Brexit party constitution? Whatever Mr Farage wants? There are different right of centre parties.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    Its those in deprived areas who tend to lose out from the obsession with GDP.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Foxy said:

    I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.

    Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.

    So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.

    Re-opening negotiations means an extension is needed. Even signing off May's deal requires quite a bit of legislative acivity in Westminster and Brussels.

    So anyone promising re-opened negotiations really means an extension.
    Given that a GE before September is a virtual impossibility, and that producing the required legislation is probably a six week task, then you are absolutely right, reopening negotiations means an extension.

    So, what's Boris to do: he's promised both - reopened negotiations and to leave by October 31st?

    Presumably he's betting on the EU telling him to "fuck off", and enabling the UK to leave by the end of October through being kicked out. In this scenario, he blames an problems on the EU. (Although history suggests the party in power will get the blame, irrespective of where ultimate responsibility lies.)

    The risk with this is that the EU hands him an extension to 2022.

    What does he do then?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
  • Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Join the Liberal Democrats/Change UK where they belong.

    Then we can have a party that truly does represent huge swathes of the country, as the referendum itself proved with the huge disconnect between what 52% of the public really thought vs the Conservative Party position on Europe.

    And the same applies, when you examine the polling, to issues like the death penalty, ECHR, grammar schools, military cutbacks and foreign intervention.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    Its those in deprived areas who tend to lose out from the obsession with GDP.
    Yes, but they are also the first to starve in a recession.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Still a hung parliament on that and ignore the headline and look at the provinces e.g. Trudeau still leads big in Quebec and is about tied in Ontario where most of the marginal seats are, the Tories mainly from Alberta shere they are polling well over 50%. Trudeau also still tends to lead as best PM and as Australia proved recently the incumbent can still win if they lead on that even if their party trails. Incidentally my sister met Trudeau recently at the Southsea D Day commemorations where she was performing with the First Aid Nursing Yeomanary and he was quite charismatic in person so would not rule him out yet.

    That said if the Tories to win their leader Andrew Scheer is a big Brexit backer and would happily speed through a FTA with PM Boris (though Trudeau has said he would go a trade deal too)
    Note too the biggest gainers in Canadian polls are the Greens, up 8% from the last election to 11% from 3% ie more than the Conservatives current lead over the Liberals.

    Whether Trudeau can squeeze the Greens back by polling day could be crucial as to whether he is re elected or not
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Can somebody just remind me, what is conservative about Brexit?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited June 2019
    Artist said:

    IanB2 said:

    C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.

    According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
    Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    On topic, I agree with Richard.

    For the Conservative Party to throw away their USP is madness.

    I expect Boris to rat and take the path of least resistance.

    What is the Conservative Party really for? I used to know that in the 80s and 90s under Thatcher and Major (although I never supported them), and I still kind of get their (very niche) USP in Scotland. But what about England? Can anybody summarise the Con USP in one short paragraph? Important caveat: without mentioning Brexit.
    Reform that you may preserve

    Acting as a sea anchor on change so that it happens gradually and with deliberation rather than at a rate that unsettles people
    And a No Deal Brexit is consistent with that how, exactly?
    The rule was not to mention Brexit

    As a good Conservative I abide by the rules
    I’m asking the question now. :)

    How do you reconcile a No Deal Brexit with your definition of Conservatism?

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    What about the Tories favourite gal - Prudence ?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited June 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    Three buzz words that mean nothing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
    History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.

    But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    Three buzz words that mean nothing.
    Well, they mean a lot to Conservatives.
  • there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.

    What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?

    I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
    Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
    I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.

    It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.

    And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
    Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?

    Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?

    If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
    I would indeed be against the ECHR in principle.
    Are you against having a constitution in principle?

    And your answers to my other two questions are?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    Its those in deprived areas who tend to lose out from the obsession with GDP.
    I'd be curious to know when the obsession with GDP as an economic stat started.

    And likewise when the trade balance stopped being reported on the news.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    Exactly.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    Can somebody just remind me, what is conservative about Brexit?

    There is nothing conservative about the act of Brexit; therein lies the problem.

    The motivation for wanting Brexit - the hankering for an imagined past and for past glories - is of course very conservative.
  • there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    Its those in deprived areas who tend to lose out from the obsession with GDP.
    I'd be curious to know when the obsession with GDP as an economic stat started.

    And likewise when the trade balance stopped being reported on the news.
    Valid point. The trade balance figures used to be a standard feature on the evening news.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Artist said:

    IanB2 said:

    C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.

    According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
    Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
    You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    edited June 2019
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    What about the Tories favourite gal - Prudence ?
    Gordon had an eye for her.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.

    What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?

    I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
    Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
    I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.

    It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.

    And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
    Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?

    Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?

    If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
    I would indeed be against the ECHR in principle.
    Are you against having a constitution in principle?

    And your answers to my other two questions are?
    I see no reason for a written constitution.

    As to the rest, I think that a vigorous democracy is the best bastion against tyranny. Plenty of tyrannies have had written constitutions that theoretically guarantee all kinds of rights, while violating them in practice.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.

    Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.

    So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.

    Welcome.

    The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.

    The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
    And if their conditions cannot be net then they are not negotiating in good faith
    Things I really hate about the 21st century
    ==================================
    1: tattoos
    2: facial tattoos
    3: people who say "thanks" when the mean "please"
    4: people who say "are you alright" instead of "can I help you"
    5: the phrase "bring you along"
    6: the phrase "reach out"
    7: the ability of people to alter others' behaviour by screaming on Twitter
    8: vaping
    9: the incorrect use of the terms "in good faith" and "in utmost good faith"
    10: cheek piercing and flesh tunnels
    I had "thank you for your outreach" the other day.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    rcs1000 said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
    History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.

    But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
    By that reckoning young graduates in London should care only about housing and debt.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    People have affection and loyalty towards it.
  • there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
    My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.

    My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    rcs1000 said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
    History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.

    But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
    By that reckoning young graduates in London should care only about housing and debt.
    Young graduates in London do care about housing. Very much so.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Artist said:

    IanB2 said:

    C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.

    According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
    Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
    You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
    ha ha ha - right
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    rcs1000 said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
    History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.

    But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
    England is due what market traders euphemistically call a “correction”. A bit of bread and water might do them good.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    People have affection and loyalty towards it.
    As you're discovering, people have affection and loyalty towards the European Union too. Is there a tipping point beyond which you would accept that membership of the EU should be regarded as a conservative principle?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.

    Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.

    So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.

    Welcome.

    The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.

    The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
    Thanks for the welcome.

    That was the previous EU parliament's negotiations. It's not clear what will happen now.

    Does anyone know if the EU's main negotiators Michel Barnier and Donald Tusk are still in power after the election?
    Ireland can't afford to compromise on the border, either to get a deal or as a collateral of No Deal. That hasn't changed. The other members don't have the same compulsion but will likely prioritise the interest of a fellow member over a non member.

    Northern Ireland can afford a hard border even less than the Republic. If people in GB cared two hoots about Northern Ireland they would sign up to the backstop in an instant. But they don't and so they haven't.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
    My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.

    My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
    Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    Don't disclose the following numbers (because it's personal information and this is the internet!), but bank balance is not enough info to categorise wealth. Salary, positive equity and credit limit are also important, arguably more so.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    IanB2 said:

    Can somebody just remind me, what is conservative about Brexit?

    There is nothing conservative about the act of Brexit; therein lies the problem.

    The motivation for wanting Brexit - the hankering for an imagined past and for past glories - is of course very conservative.
    That hankering for an imagined (or even real but long-gone) past is not conservatism; you cannot conserve what is long-since gone. If anything it is historical re-enactmentism.

    Maybe the Conservative Party should rename itself the History Party. The name may soon become very appropriate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,022

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    You view, in hindsight, pride in the UK as the central rationale for Brexit and see its dissolution as just punishment for voting for it in the first place, and protection against it ever happening again.

    Quite aside from being an utterly barking and fanatical belief, it's also delusional.

    An independent England would be even more likely to plough its own furrow.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    People have affection and loyalty towards it.
    Pull the other one. If that was true then there would have been no need for Project Fear.

    Better Together kept the Union going in 2014 through good old fashioned threats. That card has been played now.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    People have affection and loyalty towards it.
    As you're discovering, people have affection and loyalty towards the European Union too. Is there a tipping point beyond which you would accept that membership of the EU should be regarded as a conservative principle?
    Many Conservatives would be happy with de Gaulle's Europe des Patries.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    Artist said:

    IanB2 said:

    C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.

    According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
    Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
    You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
    Boris should just stick with the Beeb and Sky :)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    People have affection and loyalty towards it.
    As you're discovering, people have affection and loyalty towards the European Union too. Is there a tipping point beyond which you would accept that membership of the EU should be regarded as a conservative principle?
    A minority do, yes.

    Suppose the EU was like the Roman Empire in 300 AD and I lived in Britain. I expect I'd be a Roman patriot, and see no reason to change things. I'd see it as working well.

    But now, I'm being asked to give up an independence which I cherish, for reasons which seem trivial to me - a couple of extra points on GDP.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    I note the comedy police have determined that Farage is just another snowflake and they'll not be placing Jo Brand in pink furry handcuffs any time soon.
  • there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
    My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.

    My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
    Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
    I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.

    So don't tell me what my class is.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    People have affection and loyalty towards it.
    Pull the other one. If that was true then there would have been no need for Project Fear.

    Better Together kept the Union going in 2014 through good old fashioned threats. That card has been played now.
    You are the living embodiment of the No True Scotsman fallacy. You believe that No True Scotsman is a Unionist.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    rcs1000 said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
    History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.

    But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
    England is due what market traders euphemistically call a “correction”. A bit of bread and water might do them good.
    Scotland will have problems in that scenario.

    Is that why you emigrated ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
    My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.

    My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
    Do you think these people are protesting about GDP figures?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNlngb66zsI
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Rory can be laid at 19 now. How many votes does he need for the next round?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,022
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.

    What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?

    I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
    Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
    I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.

    It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.

    And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
    Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?

    Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?

    If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
    I would indeed be against the ECHR in principle.
    Are you against having a constitution in principle?

    And your answers to my other two questions are?
    I see no reason for a written constitution.

    As to the rest, I think that a vigorous democracy is the best bastion against tyranny. Plenty of tyrannies have had written constitutions that theoretically guarantee all kinds of rights, while violating them in practice.
    Who would write it, and why? How would it be approved and endorsed?

    How would we know it wouldn't stack the deck one way or another?

    I suspect any constitution written now, today, as opposed to the eighteenth, nineteenth or early twentieth century would be biased towards favouring internationalism, banning hate speech, and promoting diversity and identity equality, whilst containing rather less on privacy, personal freedoms and protection against arbitrary powers of the state.

    So, I prefer politics.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    You view, in hindsight, pride in the UK as the central rationale for Brexit and see its dissolution as just punishment for voting for it in the first place, and protection against it ever happening again.

    Quite aside from being an utterly barking and fanatical belief, it's also delusional.

    An independent England would be even more likely to plough its own furrow.
    Brexit has shrivelled the Leaver homeland from the UK to Great Britain to England to provincial England. The boundaries continue to shrink.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
    My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.

    My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
    Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
    I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.

    So don't tell me what my class is.
    Yawn. Don't tell people that money isn't important then, when it clearly is. Don't tell people that a recession is worth it when real people's lives are on the line.

    Your Grandfather's past situation is irrelevant. My grandfather grew up in a refugee camp because he was sent to Siberia by the Soviets when they invaded Poland. He then escaped and came to the UK as a refugee. I am comfortably middle class now.
  • there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
    My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.

    My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
    Do you think these people are protesting about GDP figures?
    Those people are a small minority, mainly confined to north London.

    Look at the figures on how many people identity as European.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,022
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    The European Project is as idealistic and fanatical as that of the ultra-hard ERG'ers.

    Its just, so far, the former have been more successful.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    rcs1000 said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
    History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.

    But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
    By that reckoning young graduates in London should care only about housing and debt.
    Young graduates in London do care about housing. Very much so.
    I'm sure they do but by Robert's theory they should be supporting a very hard line on immigration while not being concerned about many other issues.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.

    Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.

    So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.

    Re-opening negotiations means an extension is needed. Even signing off May's deal requires quite a bit of legislative acivity in Westminster and Brussels.

    So anyone promising re-opened negotiations really means an extension.
    Given that a GE before September is a virtual impossibility, and that producing the required legislation is probably a six week task, then you are absolutely right, reopening negotiations means an extension.

    So, what's Boris to do: he's promised both - reopened negotiations and to leave by October 31st?

    Presumably he's betting on the EU telling him to "fuck off", and enabling the UK to leave by the end of October through being kicked out. In this scenario, he blames an problems on the EU. (Although history suggests the party in power will get the blame, irrespective of where ultimate responsibility lies.)

    The risk with this is that the EU hands him an extension to 2022.

    What does he do then?
    From the EUs point of view easily their most sensible move would be to grant an extension without limit. They should have done so first time.

    On the Boris point - it is very unlikely that anyone can keep their promises on Brexit. No-one has yet. Not least this is because it requires alignment of parliament, government, EU and the people' vote in 2016. Boris has to keep it simple as - Rory is currently finding out - complicated several stage arguments are great but don't win elections with the public, MPs or Tory members.

    The EU won't chuck us out on 31st October. No-one wants their hands in the gore at that moment. Personally I think that includes Boris. But negotiation requires non disclosure of the full hand. Something we have not quite got to grips with yet.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    rkrkrk said:

    Rory can be laid at 19 now. How many votes does he need for the next round?

    33 unless he's bottom.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    The fact that @Viceroy_of_Orange is living and working in Spain is incredible irony. You just can't make this sh*t up.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    Sean_F said:


    A minority do, yes.

    Suppose the EU was like the Roman Empire in 300 AD and I lived in Britain. I expect I'd be a Roman patriot, and see no reason to change things. I'd see it as working well.

    But now, I'm being asked to give up an independence which I cherish, for reasons which seem trivial to me - a couple of extra points on GDP.

    Who says staying means any extra points on GDP? The same halfwits who failed to predict the financial crisis?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,022

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    I have -£439.13 in mine.

    Because, Leadsom.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    If you want to retain the status quo and mistrust change without a demonstrable benefit, the Lib Dems are the party for you nowadays. Regardless of whether you like them or think they are competent. That message supported the Conservatives successfully for more than one hundred years. They have left it behind now.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited June 2019
    To @Sean_F - I notice you don’t answer my third question.

    A vigorous democracy needs some sort of constitution or concept of basic inalienable rights, some idea of a rule of law to which even the rulers, however democratically elected they may be, are subject. Rules of the game, as it were.

    Otherwise it is all too easy for a government to be democratically elected to do something morally outrageous. I am sure you can think of examples.

    Constitutions and human rights, an idea which had its roots in English soil, even if best articulated by the US Founding Fathers, while not sufficient on their own are essential to the promotion and maintenance of a vigorous democracy.

    Conservatives used to understand this. See, for instance, Hailsham on Elective Dictatorship. Modern-day Conservatives have forgotten this - or never understood it. Otherwise some of them would never have given a moment's thought to the idea of closing Parliament to push through a policy, an idea which would normally sit more happily with the Communists advising Corbyn.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,022
    rcs1000 said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
    History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.

    But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
    Maslow.
  • Viceroy_of_OrangeViceroy_of_Orange Posts: 172
    edited June 2019

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?

    My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
    My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.

    My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
    Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
    I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.

    So don't tell me what my class is.
    Yawn. Don't tell people that money isn't important then, when it clearly is. Don't tell people that a recession is worth it when real people's lives are on the line.

    Your Grandfather's past situation is irrelevant. My grandfather grew up in a refugee camp because he was sent to Siberia by the Soviets when they invaded Poland. He then escaped and came to the UK as a refugee. I am comfortably middle class now.
    You're middle class? I guessed.

    How nice of you to be able to hector the working class, after questioning whether they even are working class, on what is and is not good for them. My vote is as equal to yours.

    Get back to the early 1800s.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    AndyJS said:
    She defeated TSE's favourite Kipper, Mark Reckless in 2015, having herself been defeated by Reckless at the by-election in 2014.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.

    So don't tell me what my class is.

    - Ostentatiously working class.
    - Works in Spain.
    - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.

    Are you Cilla Black's grandson? :)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    You're middle class? I guessed.

    How nice of you to be able to hector the working class, after questioning whether they even are working class, on what is and is not good for them.

    Get back to the early 1800s.

    Yes. I'm middle class because my parents, both children of the victims of war and pogroms were the first in their families to go to university and were lucky enough to buy a property when property was affordable.

    Get a grip.
  • I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.

    So don't tell me what my class is.

    - Ostentatiously working class.
    - Works in Spain.
    - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.

    Are you Cilla Black's grandson? :)
    No haha, but my Grandparents actually knew Cilla Black growing up.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.

    So don't tell me what my class is.

    - Ostentatiously working class.
    - Works in Spain.
    - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.

    Are you Cilla Black's grandson? :)
    I think he's a troll.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,225

    Artist said:

    IanB2 said:

    C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.

    According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
    Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
    You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
    Boris should just stick with the Beeb and Sky :)
    He should stay off the telly as much as possible so as to minimize the risk that the punters will notice that's snake oil he's selling.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
    I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
    And now you are wealthy?
    I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
    I have -£439.13 in mine.

    Because, Leadsom.
    Has anyone yet explained the Leadsom betting ?

    And do we know which PBers made money from it ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.

    So don't tell me what my class is.

    - Ostentatiously working class.
    - Works in Spain.
    - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.

    Are you Cilla Black's grandson? :)
    Not another effin' expat Brexiteer?!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.

    This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
    You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.

    The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.

    There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
    Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
    So what should/do they stand for then?
    Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
    If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
    I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.

    I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
    But the UK union is? Why?
    People have affection and loyalty towards it.
    Much of it is about occupying the same small island. Good reason for union of Britain, Union of Ireland and (sotto voce) reunion of both. Works OK for new Zealand.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    We’ve reached the Four Yorkshiremen stage of the evening.
This discussion has been closed.