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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The final step. Why the leader of the Conservative party does

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited June 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The final step. Why the leader of the Conservative party does not automatically become Prime Minister

Professor Brian Cox was once asked to explain string theory in a sentence. His answer: “It’s probably not true.” The same one sentence explanation could be used to explain the theory that the next Conservative leader might not become Prime Minister. But since it’s being talked about quite a bit, let’s have a look at why.

Read the full story here


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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,207
    First like Boris
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223
    Second like Boris, in a just world
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,292
    One very minor minor quibble.

    Where Alastair writes 'To date, no one has ever gone broke betting on the Conservative Remainers failing to follow through.'

    I could argue when the crucial moment came last March Tory Remainers did follow through.

    https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/uk-parliament-seizes-control-of-brexit-options
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530
    3rd like the Tories in an October GE
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,965
    Bandit at 3 o'clock.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - ”To date, no one has ever gone broke betting on the Conservative Remainers failing to follow through. So it must remain by some way the likeliest outcome that most of them will go quietly, at least initially, deluding themselves that they should wait and see. You and I might wonder what they would be waiting to see, but they aren’t called wets for nothing.”

    The Tories need a hard wet.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,292
    This is going to be so exciting.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223
    FPT:
    JackW said:
    So, looking forward to all the likely controversy around the time of his appointment, it looks like the Tories aren’t expecting the new PM to have much of a honeymoon.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223
    edited June 2019
    Ironically, rather than following the HY playbook and trying to take office and call an election, Boris’s best chance of leading his party into a GE is if he isn’t successful in putting together a majority, and the GE follows automatically at the end of the 14 days.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    Never mind where’s Boris, where’s Sadiq?

    https://twitter.com/coachsoho/status/1143151662170804226?s=21
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    PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    How many Tory and Labour MPs are currently deselected/facing deselection as candidates for the next GE ? Also would it be correct to assume that none of the Change UK/Independents are likely to retain their seats in the event of an election ?

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Interesting that in a parallel universe we would be having another Tory leadership election where Cameron was handing over to George Osborne in the run up to the 2020 general election.

    The branching moment was that Milliband did not resign the Labour leadership in 2015.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    A great article as always. By my calculation the Government's majority has just fallen to four - and will be three should the Tories lose Brecon & Radnor.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Obviously, Callaghan remained prime minister not just for a week after the no confidence vote, but for more than five weeks - until Thatcher was asked to form a government.
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    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530
    justin124 said:

    A great article as always. By my calculation the Government's majority has just fallen to four - and will be three should the Tories lose Brecon & Radnor.

    Presumably only if the DUP back the government.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,632
    HYUFD said:
    That's fairly funny, but even very mundane legislation does get progressed during times of crisis. Not to say we are not wasting a great deal of time, but it is not inherently silly
    justin124 said:

    A great article as always. By my calculation the Government's majority has just fallen to four - and will be three should the Tories lose Brecon & Radnor.

    And it is not as though the DUP can really be relied upon at present.

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    But I wanted to see how desperate the Welsh were for independence because of the high polling that shows it as good as gone from the UK, according to some wet dreams.
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    I thought boles had left?
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Change UK don't get any better, do they?

    ' "Change UK is happy to confirm that we are in talks about a joint independent Remain candidate in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election," a spokesman for the party said. '

    Come off it. The Lib Dems held this seat until 2015. There is not the slightest chance that they will, or should, stand down in favour of an "independent Remain candidate". Such a banner would probably lose votes in Radnorshire, not gain them.

    It's time - long past time - for Soubry's lot to give up.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    No they wouldn’t they know they are toast now that the leave.uk movement has black spotted them. Their only chance of remaking in parliament is to either defect or stand as independents. There is no rational behavior to be expected from the new mantra of leave regardless.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223
    edited June 2019

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Change UK don't get any better, do they?

    ' "Change UK is happy to confirm that we are in talks about a joint independent Remain candidate in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election," a spokesman for the party said. '

    Come off it. The Lib Dems held this seat until 2015. There is not the slightest chance that they will, or should, stand down in favour of an "independent Remain candidate". Such a banner would probably lose votes in Radnorshire, not gain them.

    It's time - long past time - for Soubry's lot to give up.
    This is all excellent news - and a foretaste of what awaits Bottler Bozo if he finds himself in a GE. Labour is too tribalist to take part, but the LibDems, Greens, Nationalists and what is left of CUK working towards a common candidate is very good news.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    Well done to Plaid Cymru.

    Will the Brexit Party stand?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    It is possible Boris could become Tory leader, lose a VONC and May remains as a largely technocratic PM during a Boris v Corbyn general election until either one of them wins amajority or they or an alternative (like Starmer, Lidington or even Stewart) can cobble together enough MPs behind them after a VONC following another hung parliament
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,207
    nielh said:

    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    I thought boles had left?
    Yep. He resigned the Tory Whip in April.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    Do Boles, Lee, and Grieve (not to mention Sandbach and others) *want* to stay around with the fruitcake party?

    It’s not like a backbencher earns huge amounts of money.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530
    IanB2 said:

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Change UK don't get any better, do they?

    ' "Change UK is happy to confirm that we are in talks about a joint independent Remain candidate in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election," a spokesman for the party said. '

    Come off it. The Lib Dems held this seat until 2015. There is not the slightest chance that they will, or should, stand down in favour of an "independent Remain candidate". Such a banner would probably lose votes in Radnorshire, not gain them.

    It's time - long past time - for Soubry's lot to give up.
    This is all excellent news - and a foretaste of what awaits Bottler Bozo if he finds himself in a GE. Labour is too tribalist to take part, but the LibDems, Greens, Nationalists and what is left of CUK working towards a common candidate is very good news.
    Excellent, happy to vote Green if part of an electoral pact, or even CHUK.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IanB2 said:

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Change UK don't get any better, do they?

    ' "Change UK is happy to confirm that we are in talks about a joint independent Remain candidate in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election," a spokesman for the party said. '

    Come off it. The Lib Dems held this seat until 2015. There is not the slightest chance that they will, or should, stand down in favour of an "independent Remain candidate". Such a banner would probably lose votes in Radnorshire, not gain them.

    It's time - long past time - for Soubry's lot to give up.
    This is all excellent news - and a foretaste of what awaits Bottler Bozo if he finds himself in a GE. Labour is too tribalist to take part, but the LibDems, Greens, Nationalists and what is left of CUK working towards a common candidate is very good news.
    It’s a difficult process I remember the early days of the lib/sdp alliance when I was parliamentary spokesman for the liberals and the constituency was determined to be an SDP seat. As it happened I wasn’t too bothered as were never going to get more than second but you can see the impact when no pact results in both, or all being defeated. Liverpool Wavertree and Richmond (Yorkshire) come to mind
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251

    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    Do Boles, Lee, and Grieve (not to mention Sandbach and others) *want* to stay around with the fruitcake party?

    It’s not like a backbencher earns huge amounts of money.
    I would find it strange that the remain conservative rebels, the independents, and labour mps in leave areas decide to vote themselves out of office in July before seeing the direction of travel through september and the party conference season
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,207

    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    Do Boles, Lee, and Grieve (not to mention Sandbach and others) *want* to stay around with the fruitcake party?

    It’s not like a backbencher earns huge amounts of money.
    Boles resigned the Whip back in April.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:

    It is possible Boris could become Tory leader, lose a VONC and May remains as a largely technocratic PM during a Boris v Corbyn general election until either one of them wins amajority or they or an alternative (like Starmer, Lidington or even Stewart) can cobble together enough MPs behind them after a VONC following another hung parliament

    Boris can't lose a confidence vote until he is prime minister.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530
    Have we seen enough of Boris's superlative campaigning skills, and grasp of detail that will unite the nation yet or do we have 4 more weeks of the silly season to go?

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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251
    edited June 2019
    Foxy said:

    Have we seen enough of Boris's superlative campaigning skills, and grasp of detail that will unite the nation yet or do we have 4 more weeks of the silly season to go?

    I would suggest we have many more than 4 weeks silly season to go
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,934

    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    Do Boles, Lee, and Grieve (not to mention Sandbach and others) *want* to stay around with the fruitcake party?

    It’s not like a backbencher earns huge amounts of money.
    A backbench MP earns £79468 per annum, plus expenses. Perhaps not a "huge" amount of money to some, but certainly not insignificant...
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited June 2019

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495
    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    Foxy said:

    Have we seen enough of Boris's superlative campaigning skills, and grasp of detail that will unite the nation yet or do we have 4 more weeks of the silly season to go?

    It is like watching a slow motion car crash.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    Do Boles, Lee, and Grieve (not to mention Sandbach and others) *want* to stay around with the fruitcake party?

    It’s not like a backbencher earns huge amounts of money.
    It means ending friendships as well as one's career. That's a tall order.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251
    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    Not heard this boring technical detail before:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1143220789237489665
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    I have to say I am coming around to this view, even though I have been banging on about Boris not becoming PM for several weeks now.

    Let no man stand between an MP and his August holiday!

    By now bookings will have been made. Spouse and kids excited etc etc.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
    Presumably a reciprocal stand down in a PC Westminster target seat.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    It is possible Boris could become Tory leader, lose a VONC and May remains as a largely technocratic PM during a Boris v Corbyn general election until either one of them wins amajority or they or an alternative (like Starmer, Lidington or even Stewart) can cobble together enough MPs behind them after a VONC following another hung parliament

    Boris can't lose a confidence vote until he is prime minister.
    He could become PM for a day or two, then lose a VONC then we go to a late summer/early autumn general election.

    May even be for the best, let voters decide if they still want Brexit Deal or No Deal with a Boris majority or BINO, EUref2 or even revoke with a Corbyn minority government
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,057
    Foxy said:

    Have we seen enough of Boris's superlative campaigning skills, and grasp of detail that will unite the nation yet or do we have 4 more weeks of the silly season to go?

    To be fair, when one is terminally idle and feckless, and one knows that the greatest prize in British politics is already in the bag, why should one feel the need to be arsed to do anything except receive the trophy with smug satisfaction?
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,437
    edited June 2019
    When is the latest a government can be brought down with a VONC where the GE would have to be held before 31 October deadline? That is crucial. Whether a government would crazy enough to simply sit on their hands and allow a no deal during a GE campaign I'm unsure, but in theory they wouldn't have to request an extension would they?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,207
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is possible Boris could become Tory leader, lose a VONC and May remains as a largely technocratic PM during a Boris v Corbyn general election until either one of them wins amajority or they or an alternative (like Starmer, Lidington or even Stewart) can cobble together enough MPs behind them after a VONC following another hung parliament

    Boris can't lose a confidence vote until he is prime minister.
    He could become PM for a day or two, then lose a VONC then we go to a late summer/early autumn election.

    May even be for the best, let voters decide if they still want Brexit Deal or No Deal with a Boris majority or BINO, EUref2 or even revoke with a Corbyn minority government
    Boris will leave office before the end of the year.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530

    Not heard this boring technical detail before:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1143220789237489665

    25 July clashes with the Royal Welsh Show. The council may prefer the following week.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    Bloody hell. Boris has left the bunker:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1143228556752949248
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251
    edited June 2019

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    I have to say I am coming around to this view, even though I have been banging on about Boris not becoming PM for several weeks now.

    Let no man stand between an MP and his August holiday!

    By now bookings will have been made. Spouse and kids excited etc etc.
    And no cancellation insurance. Could cost mps thousands of pounds each
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Foxy said:

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
    Presumably a reciprocal stand down in a PC Westminster target seat.
    Presumably, but that may not be quite so easy to arrange at short notice.

    Adam Price clearly says he wants something in return.

    (I am not entirely sure that the Plaid Cymru and LibDems voters are quite so willing to be parcelled up as gifts by their leaders).
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Foxy said:

    Not heard this boring technical detail before:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1143220789237489665

    25 July clashes with the Royal Welsh Show. The council may prefer the following week.
    Fair enough
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    If TM tried to put ken Clarke in as PM there would be riots. And the brexit party would win a landslide at the general election . The tories would lose all their activists to the bxp . Nigel Farage would become PM . And a huge proportion of Tory MPs would defect to the brexit party and force the fall of the government
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    I think the argument falls down on "apart from MPs themselves"....
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251
    nichomar said:

    Foxy said:

    Not heard this boring technical detail before:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1143220789237489665

    25 July clashes with the Royal Welsh Show. The council may prefer the following week.
    Fair enough
    When most everyone is away on holiday apart from the elderly
  • Options
    nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Bloody hell. Boris has left the bunker:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1143228556752949248

    Will she actually ask him questions on his Brexit policy or will this be one long yawn about his private life .
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited June 2019
    @AlastairMeeks re your post on the last thread, my problem with opinion polls is that they over state the view of the politically engaged, particularly when there is no election forthcoming. When there is an election forthcoming, and when the electorate is politically engaged, I reckon they should be accurate

    I tried to make the point here, although used the wrong example with the YouGov as they WERE filtering out the politically engaged, and were also stunningly accurate

    http://aboutasfarasdelgados.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-problem-with-opinion-polls-polls.html
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    PaulM said:

    How many Tory and Labour MPs are currently deselected/facing deselection as candidates for the next GE ? Also would it be correct to assume that none of the Change UK/Independents are likely to retain their seats in the event of an election ?

    https://twitter.com/singharj/status/1143179415150628867
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,292
    This came from an apolitical friend.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    Can anyone explain why Grove is 200/1 to be next leader but every other beaten candidate is 1000?

    Do some BF punters think the 1922 would put Grove as leader if both Bozza and Hunt dropped out?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251
    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    Have you tried to book a holiday in late June or July. They are priced as peak and most everyone we know with school children are going away from early July to mid August

    Also mps will have committed thousands to their summer holidays and it is lost money if they do not go as it is not covered by insurance
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    I see Farage says that Boris *does* speak with Bannon.

    So either Bannon is lying, or Boris is lying, or Farage is lying.

    In this circumstance, at least, they can’t all be lying.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530

    Foxy said:

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
    Presumably a reciprocal stand down in a PC Westminster target seat.
    Presumably, but that may not be quite so easy to arrange at short notice.

    Adam Price clearly says he wants something in return.

    (I am not entirely sure that the Plaid Cymru and LibDems voters are quite so willing to be parcelled up as gifts by their leaders).
    Oh, I agree that there is always some shrinkage when people cannot vote for their preferred party. Voters cannot be shifted about without consequence.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    I have to say I am coming around to this view, even though I have been banging on about Boris not becoming PM for several weeks now.

    Let no man stand between an MP and his August holiday!

    By now bookings will have been made. Spouse and kids excited etc etc.
    And no cancellation insurance. Could cost mps thousands of pounds each
    It may depend on whether his enemies - he is not short of them - want to prevent him being PM at all or to cut it short once he is installed. But at all events time is not on his enemies' side. The best way to stop him being PM at all is for lots of Tories well in advance - soon - to say they cannot support him. This gives TM both time and constitutional reason to take alternative action. If his enemies don't want to be labelled stooges of the Marxists they need a n alternative idea - either TM to stay or a GNU. I prefer the second.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    I think the argument falls down on "apart from MPs themselves"....
    I know, most people have had to alter holiday plans due to professional or family circumstances, the rather strange thing is we apparently have until 31 October to solve our brexit position but we have wasted June July on a leadership election, we can’t cancel our holidays so that’s August gone and we can’t cancel the party annual binge (sorry conference) and then we are going to have a GE in October does anybody wonder why we are regarded as a joke?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Can anyone explain why Grove is 200/1 to be next leader but every other beaten candidate is 1000?

    Do some BF punters think the 1922 would put Grove as leader if both Bozza and Hunt dropped out?

    I think the idea is that if Boris drops out, Michael Gove will be substituted in as Jeremy Hunt’s opponent.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,057
    nico67 said:

    Bloody hell. Boris has left the bunker:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1143228556752949248

    Will she actually ask him questions on his Brexit policy or will this be one long yawn about his private life .
    I will wait with eager anticipation to the post- broadcast PB analysis. Much better than wasting several precious minutes of one's life watching him in person.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    Have you tried to book a holiday in late June or July. They are priced as peak and most everyone we know with school children are going away from early July to mid August

    Also mps will have committed thousands to their summer holidays and it is lost money if they do not go as it is not covered by insurance
    Presume summer election is better for Brexiters since they are more likely to be holidaying in Mablethorpe or whatever.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    I think the argument falls down on "apart from MPs themselves"....
    I know, most people have had to alter holiday plans due to professional or family circumstances, the rather strange thing is we apparently have until 31 October to solve our brexit position but we have wasted June July on a leadership election, we can’t cancel our holidays so that’s August gone and we can’t cancel the party annual binge (sorry conference) and then we are going to have a GE in October does anybody wonder why we are regarded as a joke?
    As the EU said: "please don't waste this time"
  • Options
    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    I have to say I am coming around to this view, even though I have been banging on about Boris not becoming PM for several weeks now.

    Let no man stand between an MP and his August holiday!

    By now bookings will have been made. Spouse and kids excited etc etc.
    And no cancellation insurance. Could cost mps thousands of pounds each
    It may depend on whether his enemies - he is not short of them - want to prevent him being PM at all or to cut it short once he is installed. But at all events time is not on his enemies' side. The best way to stop him being PM at all is for lots of Tories well in advance - soon - to say they cannot support him. This gives TM both time and constitutional reason to take alternative action. If his enemies don't want to be labelled stooges of the Marxists they need a n alternative idea - either TM to stay or a GNU. I prefer the second.
    Won’t happen the Tory party would implode , the activist base would defect to bxp. Half the tory MPs would defect bxp. It would be seen as a last ditch attempt of parliament to block brexit . The voters would be very unforgiving , Nigel Farage would become PM
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159

    Can anyone explain why Grove is 200/1 to be next leader but every other beaten candidate is 1000?

    Do some BF punters think the 1922 would put Grove as leader if both Bozza and Hunt dropped out?

    I think the idea is that if Boris drops out, Michael Gove will be substituted in as Jeremy Hunt’s opponent.
    Can they legally do that? Last time May was coronated when Leadsom dropped.
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,437
    A pre-recess VONC also presupposes that there would be immediate numbers to pass as soon as Johnson/Hunt gets their foot in Number 10. Although both Johnson and Hunt have dangled the concept of no deal, both profess to wanting to go back to the EU to ask for a renegotiation. Whether they'll get it or not is highly debatable, but its likely the EU will make vague noises about working together to find a solution, enough that it would look a bit premature to bring down the government to 'avoid no deal' if the PM is going to spend summer trying to get a deal to avoid it. I can't see an immediate VONC succeeding. Now, if it gets to Autumn and we're no further on and no deal is starting to become a high possibility, then I think we might see numbers shift, but it will depend on a lot of factors.
  • Options
    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Re the LBJ quote.

    I found no evidence of him ever saying the first rule of politics is being able to count, and every source that mentions the quote seems to be British.

    The last time I investigated this I came away with the suspicion it's a misquote/misattribution, potentially mentioned in the context of George Osborne who is a well know LBJ fan, which British political journalists have found very handy in the context of tight parliamentary arithmetic and therefore have kept recirculating.

    It is a great "rule" and it would be good if someone could figure out where it originated so that its creator can receive appropriate credit in future! But I really don't think it is LBJ.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    Labour utterly split. Let's hope a manifesto doesn't need to be written in next couple of months...

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1143234837697839104
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,632

    nichomar said:

    Foxy said:

    Not heard this boring technical detail before:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1143220789237489665

    25 July clashes with the Royal Welsh Show. The council may prefer the following week.
    Fair enough
    When most everyone is away on holiday apart from the elderly
    A slight exaggeration. Poor people will not be on holiday, they may not be able to afford one.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251

    A pre-recess VONC also presupposes that there would be immediate numbers to pass as soon as Johnson/Hunt gets their foot in Number 10. Although both Johnson and Hunt have dangled the concept of no deal, both profess to wanting to go back to the EU to ask for a renegotiation. Whether they'll get it or not is highly debatable, but its likely the EU will make vague noises about working together to find a solution, enough that it would look a bit premature to bring down the government to 'avoid no deal' if the PM is going to spend summer trying to get a deal to avoid it. I can't see an immediate VONC succeeding. Now, if it gets to Autumn and we're no further on and no deal is starting to become a high possibility, then I think we might see numbers shift, but it will depend on a lot of factors.

    That is my take as well
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
    Good point.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited June 2019

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    Have you tried to book a holiday in late June or July. They are priced as peak and most everyone we know with school children are going away from early July to mid August

    Also mps will have committed thousands to their summer holidays and it is lost money if they do not go as it is not covered by insurance
    Presume summer election is better for Brexiters since they are more likely to be holidaying in Mablethorpe or whatever.
    From what I’ve seen and heard they all go to benidorm, gob off in a bar and complain the barman doesn’t speak the queens English
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,057

    Labour utterly split. Let's hope a manifesto doesn't need to be written in next couple of months...

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1143234837697839104

    McCluskey really is a revolting man! Absolutely vile, and stupid too!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,632

    Can anyone explain why Grove is 200/1 to be next leader but every other beaten candidate is 1000?

    Do some BF punters think the 1922 would put Grove as leader if both Bozza and Hunt dropped out?

    I think the idea is that if Boris drops out, Michael Gove will be substituted in as Jeremy Hunt’s opponent.
    Can they legally do that? Last time May was coronated when Leadsom dropped.
    Depends on what the rules of the contest are, which we know they changed from last time. And there are apparently arguments Gove should have been substituted in last time when Leadsom dropped out in any case.

    I don't know what they would do in that situation, but that it was not what happened last time is neither here nor there it appears.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159

    Re the LBJ quote.

    I found no evidence of him ever saying the first rule of politics is being able to count, and every source that mentions the quote seems to be British.

    The last time I investigated this I came away with the suspicion it's a misquote/misattribution, potentially mentioned in the context of George Osborne who is a well know LBJ fan, which British political journalists have found very handy in the context of tight parliamentary arithmetic and therefore have kept recirculating.

    It is a great "rule" and it would be good if someone could figure out where it originated so that its creator can receive appropriate credit in future! But I really don't think it is LBJ.

    If you have time you can check to see in the Robert Caro biog of LBJ. Only 3,000 pages so far and we are barely on presidency.
  • Options
    Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 438
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
    Presumably a reciprocal stand down in a PC Westminster target seat.
    Presumably, but that may not be quite so easy to arrange at short notice.

    Adam Price clearly says he wants something in return.

    (I am not entirely sure that the Plaid Cymru and LibDems voters are quite so willing to be parcelled up as gifts by their leaders).
    Oh, I agree that there is always some shrinkage when people cannot vote for their preferred party. Voters cannot be shifted about without consequence.
    Not all members can be parcelled either. If I lived in a constituency where there wasn't a Lib Dem candidate, due to a pact, I'd not vote. I didn't join the Lib Dems to help other parties with which I have very little common ground. I'm happy to work with others after an election but I standing aside for another party takes choice away from voters.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,632
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    E

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    I think the argument falls down on "apart from MPs themselves"....
    I know, most people have had to alter holiday plans due to professional or family circumstances, the rather strange thing is we apparently have until 31 October to solve our brexit position but we have wasted June July on a leadership election, we can’t cancel our holidays so that’s August gone and we can’t cancel the party annual binge (sorry conference) and then we are going to have a GE in October does anybody wonder why we are regarded as a joke?
    I don't wonder about it, I just don't think it matters in the long term. Ultimately a decision will have to be made, and whatever the relationship we end up having with the EU the realities of politics will dictate how things then progress - that our politicians have wasted and will continue to waste the extension time that was offered will be neither here nor there.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Foxy said:



    Oh, I agree that there is always some shrinkage when people cannot vote for their preferred party. Voters cannot be shifted about without consequence.

    Plaid Cymru has inherited most of the old Welsh Chapel vote that was the bedrock of the old Welsh Liberals (people like Emlyn Hooson). The present Welsh LibDem party membership is very Anglo-centric.

    So, the voter base of the two parties are very different. I think the efficiency of any vote transfer will be low (under 20 per cent).

    I don't see much in it for either party, tbh.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,292
    edited June 2019

    Re the LBJ quote.

    I found no evidence of him ever saying the first rule of politics is being able to count, and every source that mentions the quote seems to be British.

    The last time I investigated this I came away with the suspicion it's a misquote/misattribution, potentially mentioned in the context of George Osborne who is a well know LBJ fan, which British political journalists have found very handy in the context of tight parliamentary arithmetic and therefore have kept recirculating.

    It is a great "rule" and it would be good if someone could figure out where it originated so that its creator can receive appropriate credit in future! But I really don't think it is LBJ.

    It was from Robert Caro who wrote the series of books on LBJ.

    IIRC the quote was made said by LBJ when he was Senate majority leader.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,292

    Re the LBJ quote.

    I found no evidence of him ever saying the first rule of politics is being able to count, and every source that mentions the quote seems to be British.

    The last time I investigated this I came away with the suspicion it's a misquote/misattribution, potentially mentioned in the context of George Osborne who is a well know LBJ fan, which British political journalists have found very handy in the context of tight parliamentary arithmetic and therefore have kept recirculating.

    It is a great "rule" and it would be good if someone could figure out where it originated so that its creator can receive appropriate credit in future! But I really don't think it is LBJ.

    If you have time you can check to see in the Robert Caro biog of LBJ. Only 3,000 pages so far and we are barely on presidency.
    Volume V is going to be out soon, and won't even cover Vietnam, that's for Vol VI.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
    Presumably a reciprocal stand down in a PC Westminster target seat.
    Presumably, but that may not be quite so easy to arrange at short notice.

    Adam Price clearly says he wants something in return.

    (I am not entirely sure that the Plaid Cymru and LibDems voters are quite so willing to be parcelled up as gifts by their leaders).
    Oh, I agree that there is always some shrinkage when people cannot vote for their preferred party. Voters cannot be shifted about without consequence.
    Not all members can be parcelled either. If I lived in a constituency where there wasn't a Lib Dem candidate, due to a pact, I'd not vote. I didn't join the Lib Dems to help other parties with which I have very little common ground. I'm happy to work with others after an election but I standing aside for another party takes choice away from voters.
    Absolutely.

    I regularly vote Plaid Cymru, and nothing would make me vote for Jane Dodds in B&R.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited June 2019

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    Have you tried to book a holiday in late June or July. They are priced as peak and most everyone we know with school children are going away from early July to mid August

    Also mps will have committed thousands to their summer holidays and it is lost money if they do not go as it is not covered by insurance
    Even if Boris does lose a VONC I think the likeliest date for a general election is early September not July or August.

    Plus of course we now have postal and proxy votes so even if it is in August and people are on holiday they can still vote
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,057
    edited June 2019

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Plaid pulling out of Brecon presumably ups the odds on the Lib Dems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48742981

    Except, it doesn't say that.

    It says Plaid Cymru are in talks to field a joint Remain candidate, and they want something in return.

    (I suspect the LibDems think they have no need to grant anything in return, so it will come to nothing).
    Presumably a reciprocal stand down in a PC Westminster target seat.
    Presumably, but that may not be quite so easy to arrange at short notice.

    Adam Price clearly says he wants something in return.

    (I am not entirely sure that the Plaid Cymru and LibDems voters are quite so willing to be parcelled up as gifts by their leaders).
    Oh, I agree that there is always some shrinkage when people cannot vote for their preferred party. Voters cannot be shifted about without consequence.
    Not all members can be parcelled either. If I lived in a constituency where there wasn't a Lib Dem candidate, due to a pact, I'd not vote. I didn't join the Lib Dems to help other parties with which I have very little common ground. I'm happy to work with others after an election but I standing aside for another party takes choice away from voters.
    Absolutely.

    I regularly vote Plaid Cymru, and nothing would make me vote for Jane Dodds in B&R.
    What is wrong with Jane Dodds? The political gene pool in Wales is currently pretty shallow and she strikes me as being no more useless than the rest of them.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    Any Tory MP who votes against the democratically elected leader straight away is surely ending their political career. Boles, Phillip Lee and Grieve are all under pressure from local members but would probably be kept on if the next election was imminent.

    Do Boles, Lee, and Grieve (not to mention Sandbach and others) *want* to stay around with the fruitcake party?

    It’s not like a backbencher earns huge amounts of money.
    It means ending friendships as well as one's career. That's a tall order.
    But surely very firm friendships exist across the House! We hear that Thatcher was close to Frank Field and Eric Heffer from the Labour benches.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    Have you tried to book a holiday in late June or July. They are priced as peak and most everyone we know with school children are going away from early July to mid August

    Also mps will have committed thousands to their summer holidays and it is lost money if they do not go as it is not covered by insurance
    Even if Boris does lose a VONC I think the likeliest date for a general election is early September not July or August.

    Plus of course we now have postal and proxy votes so even if it is in August and people are on holiday they can still vote

    Campaigning in August would be a nonsense
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,245
    OK if Hunt wins does that also mean a GE?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Excellent analysis as always. Boris faces these obstacles in order: he may bottle out before the contest with Hunt is complete; he may lose to Hunt; he may by the time he is leader have so many Tories indicating they would not support him that TM could not constitutionally request HM the Queen to ask him to form a government; he may lose support of DUP; he may only survive days before losing a VONC; he may call a quick election and lose.

    My best guess is that if he becomes PM his only recourse is to call a Brexit election asap and take his chance before a VONC is called on him. Thus he keeps such initiative as is possible - which is not much.

    Hope, if Boris wins, TM advises HM that Kenneth Clarke and a GNU is the country's only hope of a stable government. She owes Boris few favours, but we may think she owes the country a few.

    As for Boris' private life, I agree that everyone is entitled not to answer questions about these things. However it is not consequence free. People are still entitled to draw their own conclusions from the evidence about his character, and to draw conclusions from his refusal to answer questions.

    One other point. An immediate vonc in late July would lead to the cancellation of the summer holidays as mps deal with the crisis and even a GE fought through the summer holidays

    Seems unlikely but who knows
    The debate about August GE being unacceptable as it’s the holiday season is outdated.
    Many pensioners go to warmer climes for the winter.
    Most people without children will go June July September October because it’s cheaper.
    Half term is holiday season as can be seen by price hikes
    People go away at Easter
    So there really is apart from MPs themselves not that many who are rigidly tied into August. It’s not as if it’s frequently too hot to campaign, the Spanish had a GE a week before Christmas so time to ditch this fallacy that August is a no no.
    Have you tried to book a holiday in late June or July. They are priced as peak and most everyone we know with school children are going away from early July to mid August

    Also mps will have committed thousands to their summer holidays and it is lost money if they do not go as it is not covered by insurance
    Even if Boris does lose a VONC I think the likeliest date for a general election is early September not July or August.

    Plus of course we now have postal and proxy votes so even if it is in August and people are on holiday they can still vote

    Campaigning in August would be a nonsense
    I think Boris will be PM, I cannot see a VONC the next day myself.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    What do the Conservative party stand for?
    What values underpin their policies?
    To what extent does brexit support those values?
    I’m actually interested because many years ago I believed in equality of opportunity, free enterprise and separation of the courts from the legislature. I see very little of any of that these days
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,530
    TOPPING said:

    OK if Hunt wins does that also mean a GE?

    No, but the drinks are on me at the next PB do. I am on at 100/1 :)

    As an LD Remainer I would rather Boris, as best placed to destroy Brexit, but a book is a book!
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,057
    TOPPING said:

    OK if Hunt wins does that also mean a GE?

    He is more likely to get a working majority on a sensible softish leave platform than Johnson's unicorn exit proposals, unless of course Bannon can mediate an electoral pact between Boris snd Nigey
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