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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Darroch shows he’s a true diplomat and resigns

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Scott_P said:

    Big shout out to Matt Hancock

    The only politicians who has managed to come out of this latest fiasco looking worse than BoZo.

    Awesome job

    What's he done?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Scott_P said:

    Today is a good day to watch the episode of The Hollowmen where the need to appoint a Foreign ambassador is discussed

    A great show and sadly not that well known.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Scott_P said:

    Would it cheer up all the PB'ers throwing their toys out the pram this afternoon? :D
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    If anything were to make me a Corbynista, it would be the embarrassing and pitiful grovelling and arse-licking towards the US which the British politicians, particularly in the Tory party, indulge in.

    I have a lot of time for the US. But they are not always right or sensible or wise. And they act in their own interests, not our. Always have done. Always will. Long past the time for us to realise this and to stop this childish desire to be the the US’s best friend in a way which demeans us. The way we behave is little better than bending over and holding our ankles.

    It is both pathetic and humiliating.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Duncan was once overheard discussing both May and Johnson. On May he expounded at length on her strengths and some weaknesses. When asked about Johnson he had a one word answer “C*nt”.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    So much for take back control , it looks like the UK has decided to become a colony of the USA. Perhaps Bozo could get advice from Trump when he picks his cabinet as to whose acceptable to the man child .

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    What's he done?

    Prostrated himself at the feet of BoZo.

    Arselicking the Leader of the Free World is bad, but arselicking the guy who wants to be that guy is just pitiful.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Cyclefree said:

    If anything were to make me a Corbynista, it would be the embarrassing and pitiful grovelling and arse-licking towards the US which the British politicians, particularly in the Tory party, indulge in.

    I have a lot of time for the US. But they are not always right or sensible or wise. And they act in their own interests, not our. Always have done. Always will. Long past the time for us to realise this and to stop this childish desire to be the the US’s best friend in a way which demeans us. The way we behave is little better than bending over and holding our ankles.

    It is both pathetic and humiliating.

    A pro-Trump Johnson could well revive the 2017 Labour coalition.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    kinabalu said:

    This really has the potential to damage Boris further among the public. Being seen as Bush's poodle was hugely damaging to Blair's reputation, and the image is now set that Boris will be Trump's bichon frise. Trump is only getting more unpopular among the public, particularly with his attacks on May (a lot of people see it as OK for us to criticise her but not foreign leaders).

    Emily Thronberry's comments are exactly the kind of response needed by Labour, got to tackle Boris hard. A few more scare stories about Boris selling the NHS to Trump and how our food supply will be poisoned by chlorinated chicken, and Boris will be in real trouble in an election even without factoring in the state of Brexit.

    Yes this plays well for Labour. They should disparage Trump at every opportunity. The contrast with the inevitable grovelling to him by a Johnson government and by the Brexit Party will be a net vote winner.

    I strongly suspect that is right.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Scott_P said:

    Big shout out to Matt Hancock

    The only politicians who has managed to come out of this latest fiasco looking worse than BoZo.

    Awesome job

    What's he done?
    Car crash interview on GM where even Piers Morgan was unimpressed.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    kinabalu said:

    This really has the potential to damage Boris further among the public. Being seen as Bush's poodle was hugely damaging to Blair's reputation, and the image is now set that Boris will be Trump's bichon frise. Trump is only getting more unpopular among the public, particularly with his attacks on May (a lot of people see it as OK for us to criticise her but not foreign leaders).

    Emily Thronberry's comments are exactly the kind of response needed by Labour, got to tackle Boris hard. A few more scare stories about Boris selling the NHS to Trump and how our food supply will be poisoned by chlorinated chicken, and Boris will be in real trouble in an election even without factoring in the state of Brexit.

    Yes this plays well for Labour. They should disparage Trump at every opportunity. The contrast with the inevitable grovelling to him by a Johnson government and by the Brexit Party will be a net vote winner.
    In many ways I think Labour may find Boris an easier target than Hunt.
    Hunt managed to resist a lot of criticism at health, despite being given a pretty dreadful hand to play by Lansley/Osborne.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Scott_P said:
    How long before #IStandWithKim is trending? :D
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    kinabalu said:

    This really has the potential to damage Boris further among the public. Being seen as Bush's poodle was hugely damaging to Blair's reputation, and the image is now set that Boris will be Trump's bichon frise. Trump is only getting more unpopular among the public, particularly with his attacks on May (a lot of people see it as OK for us to criticise her but not foreign leaders).

    Emily Thronberry's comments are exactly the kind of response needed by Labour, got to tackle Boris hard. A few more scare stories about Boris selling the NHS to Trump and how our food supply will be poisoned by chlorinated chicken, and Boris will be in real trouble in an election even without factoring in the state of Brexit.

    Yes this plays well for Labour. They should disparage Trump at every opportunity. The contrast with the inevitable grovelling to him by a Johnson government and by the Brexit Party will be a net vote winner.

    I strongly suspect that is right.

    True . The fact that Corbyn won’t arse lick Trump and will stay closer to Europe is a big plus .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Cyclefree said:

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Well said.

    Tory members voting for this man should be ashamed of themselves.
    I voted neither - pleased with my decision

    Boris will have lost a lot today no matter what his supporters say
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    nico67 said:

    kinabalu said:

    This really has the potential to damage Boris further among the public. Being seen as Bush's poodle was hugely damaging to Blair's reputation, and the image is now set that Boris will be Trump's bichon frise. Trump is only getting more unpopular among the public, particularly with his attacks on May (a lot of people see it as OK for us to criticise her but not foreign leaders).

    Emily Thronberry's comments are exactly the kind of response needed by Labour, got to tackle Boris hard. A few more scare stories about Boris selling the NHS to Trump and how our food supply will be poisoned by chlorinated chicken, and Boris will be in real trouble in an election even without factoring in the state of Brexit.

    Yes this plays well for Labour. They should disparage Trump at every opportunity. The contrast with the inevitable grovelling to him by a Johnson government and by the Brexit Party will be a net vote winner.

    I strongly suspect that is right.

    True . The fact that Corbyn won’t arse lick Trump and will stay closer to Europe is a big plus .
    Given the people Corbyn has arse licked in his time I really don't think you want to go there... ;)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    One of those cases where one hopes both sides will lose, which since it's a defamation case is near-certain.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited July 2019

    Cyclefree said:

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Well said.

    Tory members voting for this man should be ashamed of themselves.
    I voted neither - pleased with my decision

    Boris will have lost a lot today no matter what his supporters say
    Unless Boris (or friends of Boris) turns out to be the leaker I'm still unsure why Boris is getting the blame for Kim resinging?

    Kim was done for the moment the leak happened. If anything Boris was the only one facing up to the reality of the situation and even then he didn't actually call on him to resign.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Cyclefree said:

    If anything were to make me a Corbynista, it would be the embarrassing and pitiful grovelling and arse-licking towards the US which the British politicians, particularly in the Tory party, indulge in.

    I have a lot of time for the US. But they are not always right or sensible or wise. And they act in their own interests, not our. Always have done. Always will. Long past the time for us to realise this and to stop this childish desire to be the the US’s best friend in a way which demeans us. The way we behave is little better than bending over and holding our ankles.

    It is both pathetic and humiliating.

    And ultimately self-defeating.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    One of those cases where one hopes both sides will lose, which since it's a defamation case is near-certain.
    This looks like one of those remarkable cases where someone was shooting fish in a barrel, and missed.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,086
    Has she any good character left to malign?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rkrkrk said:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2019/07/daniel-hannan-for-brexit-to-work-power-must-be-stripped-from-the-quangorats-and-returned-to-people-we-elect.html

    "The Electoral Commission and the Information Commissioner’s Office have harassed Vote Leave campaigners. Eurosceptic donors even appear to have been targeted by the tax authorities. At the same time, senior civil servants have taken full advantage of Theresa May’s disastrous readiness to be ruled by official advice."

    Hannan quite openly stating his aim of tearing apart British institutions in his latest piece.

    Like how Thatcher tore apart systems when she reformed the economy. Reformists generally do believe in actual reform shockingly enough and not just assuming existing systems are fit for purpose.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Scott_P said:

    What's he done?

    Prostrated himself at the feet of BoZo.

    Arselicking the Leader of the Free World is bad, but arselicking the guy who wants to be that guy is just pitiful.
    Scott_P said:

    What's he done?

    Prostrated himself at the feet of BoZo.

    Arselicking the Leader of the Free World is bad, but arselicking the guy who wants to be that guy is just pitiful.
    But what on earth could they have in common ?

    ....

    A civil servant later described him as “devoid of principle, transparently ambitious and pleased with himself beyond measure”
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/07/matt-hancock-isn-t-funny-nerd-he-s-shameless-operator-who-happens-have-app

    And apparently he refers to himself as “Matty Moo Moos”.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    kinabalu said:

    This really has the potential to damage Boris further among the public. Being seen as Bush's poodle was hugely damaging to Blair's reputation, and the image is now set that Boris will be Trump's bichon frise. Trump is only getting more unpopular among the public, particularly with his attacks on May (a lot of people see it as OK for us to criticise her but not foreign leaders).

    Emily Thronberry's comments are exactly the kind of response needed by Labour, got to tackle Boris hard. A few more scare stories about Boris selling the NHS to Trump and how our food supply will be poisoned by chlorinated chicken, and Boris will be in real trouble in an election even without factoring in the state of Brexit.

    Yes this plays well for Labour. They should disparage Trump at every opportunity. The contrast with the inevitable grovelling to him by a Johnson government and by the Brexit Party will be a net vote winner.
    It also plays very well for remain. Brexit Britain = licking Trump's hindquarters.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    Duncan was once overheard discussing both May and Johnson. On May he expounded at length on her strengths and some weaknesses. When asked about Johnson he had a one word answer “C*nt”.
    It does underline how difficult Boris will find to fill his ministerial jobs and even the cabinet. Virtually every Tory MP who can tolerate him will need to be given a job!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Jeez, what is it with remainers and arse licking today? :D
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    One of those cases where one hopes both sides will lose, which since it's a defamation case is near-certain.
    Carter Fuck, Mish mash con ray or someone else in the magic circle should do well out of it.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Duncan was once overheard discussing both May and Johnson. On May he expounded at length on her strengths and some weaknesses. When asked about Johnson he had a one word answer “C*nt”.
    It does underline how difficult Boris will find to fill his ministerial jobs and even the cabinet. Virtually every Tory MP who can tolerate him will need to be given a job!
    ... a bit like Corbyn, then.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    Duncan was once overheard discussing both May and Johnson. On May he expounded at length on her strengths and some weaknesses. When asked about Johnson he had a one word answer “C*nt”.
    It does underline how difficult Boris will find to fill his ministerial jobs and even the cabinet. Virtually every Tory MP who can tolerate him will need to be given a job!
    ... a bit like Corbyn, then.
    Indeed, we are unlikely to get good government in the next decade, the best we can realistically get is a coalition, but even that has been made toxic to the public.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    RobD said:

    Jeez, what is it with remainers and arse licking today? :D

    They are offended by public displays of it by their politicians ?
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
    If that one had been investigated it might have prevented this one.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
    If that one had been investigated it might have prevented this one.
    Have past leak enquiries prevented leaks?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    rkrkrk said:

    In many ways I think Labour may find Boris an easier target than Hunt.
    Hunt managed to resist a lot of criticism at health, despite being given a pretty dreadful hand to play by Lansley/Osborne.

    Yes, perhaps. I hope so anyway.

    Johnson appeals to many but he also repels many.

    He's enormously appealing and repulsive.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    An interesting article from a US perspective:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/message-trump-sent-forcing-out-kim-darroch/593617/
    ...The administration’s brazen hypocrisy on what is expected of ambassadors is unsurprising but still shocking. Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, has been scathing in his criticism of Brussels, calling the European Commission “out of touch with reality” and “off in the clouds.” In a New Year’s Eve interview on BBC Radio 4, Woody Johnson, the U.S. ambassador to the U.K., said he had traveled throughout the United Kingdom and found the people desperate for new leadership. Richard Grenell, the U.S. ambassador to Germany, began his term by calling for the United States to shame Germany on defense spending, and said he wanted to empower Trumpian conservatives in Europe. And this is what they have said on the record. One can only imagine their private briefings to the president....

    ....There are important lessons to be learned. For the United Kingdom’s next prime minister, it is obvious that flattery and sycophancy are not enough when dealing with Trump. In one cable, Darroch noted that Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron were busy distancing themselves from Trump but warned London: “I don’t think we should follow them.” He was wrong. The United Kingdom needs to fight its own corner. Trump respects only power and leverage.


    I don’t disagree with the comments of France’s ambassador - however unfairly, Darroch was essentially doomed by the leak of the communications.
    However, to force his public sacrifice in so precipitate and publicly craven a manner means that those who abandoned him will see little benefit from it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    In many ways I think Labour may find Boris an easier target than Hunt.
    Hunt managed to resist a lot of criticism at health, despite being given a pretty dreadful hand to play by Lansley/Osborne.

    Yes, perhaps. I hope so anyway.

    Johnson appeals to many but he also repels many.

    He's enormously appealing and repulsive.
    For all the Back Boris bluster and noise, he is actually going to be the weakest PM we have seen in a long time.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Been too busy to follow politics but how can anyone think Darroch's position is/was tenable?! He had to walk. You can't get busted badmouthing the president of the country you are serving in and expect to keep the chief diplomatic role.

    Resign was the only practical thing he could do.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
    If that one had been investigated it might have prevented this one.
    Have past leak enquiries prevented leaks?
    An exemplary punishment in this case might do something to discourage similar ones.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    In many ways I think Labour may find Boris an easier target than Hunt.
    Hunt managed to resist a lot of criticism at health, despite being given a pretty dreadful hand to play by Lansley/Osborne.

    Yes, perhaps. I hope so anyway.

    Johnson appeals to many but he also repels many.

    He's enormously appealing and repulsive.
    Like a Coypu?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
    If that one had been investigated it might have prevented this one.
    Have past leak enquiries prevented leaks?
    An exemplary punishment in this case might do something to discourage similar ones.
    Life in the Tower?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    GIN1138 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Well said.

    Tory members voting for this man should be ashamed of themselves.
    I voted neither - pleased with my decision

    Boris will have lost a lot today no matter what his supporters say
    Unless Boris (or friends of Boris) turns out to be the leaker I'm still unsure why Boris is getting the blame for Kim resinging?

    Kim was done for the moment the leak happened. If anything Boris was the only one facing up to the reality of the situation and even then he didn't actually call on him to resign.
    He was unclear last night when Hunt and near everybody else gave the Ambassador their support.

    Boris demonstrated exactly why he is unsuitable to be PM and handed a big story to his opponents
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It's probably fair to say that Sir Kim's position had become untenable even without Boris and others failing to give him the support he deserves and should have expected. However, I'm sure it's also the case that the timing - which makes it look as though a couple of tweets from Trump are enough to cause the UK to jump to attention and do whatever he says - is the fault of Boris Johnson.

    This affair, the brain-dead commitment to October 31st, and the quite extraordinary refusal to rule out treating parliament in the manner of Charles 1st, should be enough to dash any lingering hopes that Boris might not be quite as unsuitable to be PM as he seemed. Looks like he'll be even worse than one would have feared.

    Well as you will be voting LD if Boris wins anyway will he really be that bothered if you think his premiership is awful?

    Richard is a patriot. You support a football team.

    Richard is now a LD whose main priority is refusing to implement the Brexit vote the majority voted for.

    Stop this BS @HYUFD

    A prospective candidate should not be spending their time trying to chase voters away from the party
    Richard Navabi has already said he will vote LD if Boris does No Deal as a last resort to.implement Brexit, I did not open the way to leaving the party, he did
    But you are

    Don’t be part of that mistake
    From 1965 to 1975 Heathites lost 3 out of 4 general elections, it took Thatcher to win the next 3 on the trot.

    Given the majority of the country's voters and the vast majority of Tories voted Leave it is failing to respect that decision and implement it Deal or No Deal that will really cost the Tories
    So they were in power for 40% of that time?

    And from 1951-1964. Shall we agree that 17/24 years is not that bad a result?

    Thatcher was a Radical, not an Ultra. The support of the likes of Whitelaw and Hailsham was a key part of her coalition.
    Salisbury was an ultra and won more elections than Heath, even Stanley won most seats in 1847 and 1852.

    The 2 worst defeats for the Tories since the 1832 Great Reform Act came in 1906 under Balfour and 1997 under Major came under non ultra leaders
    “Better than Balfour”

    Such a ringing endorsement of your cause

    Salisbury, of course, had the support of the Cavendish family and those that came with him
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
    If that one had been investigated it might have prevented this one.
    Have past leak enquiries prevented leaks?
    I don't know. The government (usually) doesn't comment on leaked documents; from the Independent report on the 2016 leak, "Downing Street said it did not comment on leaked documents."

    Surely the interest level of the content is less of a factor in the seriousness of the leak than the security classification. Why would that secret telegram leaked to Tim Shipman have a lower classification?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Scott_P said:
    Someone is going to be eating a lot of porridge.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
    If that one had been investigated it might have prevented this one.
    Have past leak enquiries prevented leaks?
    I don't know. The government (usually) doesn't comment on leaked documents; from the Independent report on the 2016 leak, "Downing Street said it did not comment on leaked documents."

    Surely the interest level of the content is less of a factor in the seriousness of the leak than the security classification. Why would that secret telegram leaked to Tim Shipman have a lower classification?
    I'm sure that telegrams have a range of classification depending on how sensitive they are. The 2016 memo seems benign.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    GIN1138 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Well said.

    Tory members voting for this man should be ashamed of themselves.
    I voted neither - pleased with my decision

    Boris will have lost a lot today no matter what his supporters say
    Unless Boris (or friends of Boris) turns out to be the leaker I'm still unsure why Boris is getting the blame for Kim resinging?

    Kim was done for the moment the leak happened. If anything Boris was the only one facing up to the reality of the situation and even then he didn't actually call on him to resign.
    So, if you were prospective PM, would you have argued that staying in the role was the best thing for US/UK diplomacy?

    He had to go. He's been busted by a leak. Unfortunate, but life ain't fair.

    He was unclear last night when Hunt and near everybody else gave the Ambassador their support.

    Boris demonstrated exactly why he is unsuitable to be PM and handed a big story to his opponents
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    How could the Guardian possibly defend that?

    They're supposed to be woke and they are suggesting the only way a female journo could get a decent story is by sleeping with older men??????
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    GIN1138 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Darroch is a man of honour and integrity.

    Boris Johnson is neither of those things.

    Well said.

    Tory members voting for this man should be ashamed of themselves.
    I voted neither - pleased with my decision

    Boris will have lost a lot today no matter what his supporters say
    Unless Boris (or friends of Boris) turns out to be the leaker I'm still unsure why Boris is getting the blame for Kim resinging?

    Kim was done for the moment the leak happened. If anything Boris was the only one facing up to the reality of the situation and even then he didn't actually call on him to resign.
    He was unclear last night when Hunt and near everybody else gave the Ambassador their support.

    Boris demonstrated exactly why he is unsuitable to be PM and handed a big story to his opponents
    Kim was finished on Sunday morning. Hunt "and everybody else" were in denial about the situation.

    The leak did the ambassador in not Boris.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    How could the Guardian possibly defend that?

    They're supposed to be woke and they are suggesting the only way a female journo could get a decent story is by sleeping with older men??????

    Fair game if they are right wing scum.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Charles said:

    The idea being propagated by Remainers especially that Trump or an ally of Trump was behind the leak is utterly absurd. The leak was extremely embarrassing for Trump which is why he was so furious.

    Cui bono in your view?
    That's a question people don't seem to be asking often enough.

    I would say Hunt. That doesn't mean I think he is behind it but I suspect someone who wants Hunt to be PM probably is.

    Besides Darroch himself the 2 people most hurt by this leak are Trump (who has been embarrassed having this said by one of his closest allies) and Boris. Boris has been running a leadership campaign best described as 'don't scare the horses' and this leak has been like a detonation of TNT by the pasture.

    The timing is awfully suspicious for this not to be related to the leadership race and I think it is designed to help the underdog.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    IanB2 said:

    Latest yougov if BJ is PM:

    Con 23%
    LibDem 23%
    BXP 21%
    Lab 17%

    Calling - or rather trying to engineer - a general election on polling figures like those would require nerves of steel.

    Do people think Boris Johnson has nerves of steel?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    Scott_P said:
    Someone is going to be eating a lot of porridge.
    Not if it was Villainous Vlad. ;)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_P said:
    Great fun watching the Remainer Establishment rallying around the loser Darroch. Imagine if they had put this much effort into winning the Referendum.....
    Darroch isn’t a loser. He did his job and was screwed by someone who leaked confidential reports.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    Charles said:

    The idea being propagated by Remainers especially that Trump or an ally of Trump was behind the leak is utterly absurd. The leak was extremely embarrassing for Trump which is why he was so furious.

    Cui bono in your view?
    That's a question people don't seem to be asking often enough.

    I would say Hunt. That doesn't mean I think he is behind it but I suspect someone who wants Hunt to be PM probably is.

    Besides Darroch himself the 2 people most hurt by this leak are Trump (who has been embarrassed having this said by one of his closest allies) and Boris. Boris has been running a leadership campaign best described as 'don't scare the horses' and this leak has been like a detonation of TNT by the pasture.

    The timing is awfully suspicious for this not to be related to the leadership race and I think it is designed to help the underdog.
    How Machiavellian of Jeremy Hunt.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Someone is going to be eating a lot of porridge.
    Not if it was Villainous Vlad. ;)
    How do those bloody Russians find time to do all this stuff?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    Charles said:

    The idea being propagated by Remainers especially that Trump or an ally of Trump was behind the leak is utterly absurd. The leak was extremely embarrassing for Trump which is why he was so furious.

    Cui bono in your view?
    That's a question people don't seem to be asking often enough.

    I would say Hunt. That doesn't mean I think he is behind it but I suspect someone who wants Hunt to be PM probably is.

    Besides Darroch himself the 2 people most hurt by this leak are Trump (who has been embarrassed having this said by one of his closest allies) and Boris. Boris has been running a leadership campaign best described as 'don't scare the horses' and this leak has been like a detonation of TNT by the pasture.

    The timing is awfully suspicious for this not to be related to the leadership race and I think it is designed to help the underdog.
    Motive and Opportunity does point in one direction... ;)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I would also say that whoever leaked this probably agreed with the Ambassadors assessment of Trump and was happy to see it more widely publicised.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    Scott_P said:
    Someone is going to be eating a lot of porridge.
    Not if Boris is PM.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Why wasn't Darroch's 2016 leaked memo about Trump investigated with the same zeal this one is?

    Because it wasn't that interesting?

    All it said was --

    The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: “The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

    “Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this.”
    It was surely still supposed to be confidential, and so the leaker should have faced whatever is coming to this one.

    And surely Darroch should have learnt that his confidential memos weren't in fact confidential?
    Not all leaks are equal. This one has resulted in the resignation of an Ambassador, for doing nothing more than his job.
    If that one had been investigated it might have prevented this one.
    Have past leak enquiries prevented leaks?
    I don't know. The government (usually) doesn't comment on leaked documents; from the Independent report on the 2016 leak, "Downing Street said it did not comment on leaked documents."

    Surely the interest level of the content is less of a factor in the seriousness of the leak than the security classification. Why would that secret telegram leaked to Tim Shipman have a lower classification?
    I'm sure that telegrams have a range of classification depending on how sensitive they are. The 2016 memo seems benign.
    None of us have seen the documents so can't say what the classification of these were, but all of the ones I've seen on wikileaks from US Ambassadors in London - even fairly trivial ones - have been classified under 1.4 (b) foreign government information; and/or 1.4 (d) foreign relations or foreign activities of the United States, including confidential sources.

    Including this one about Louis Susman's meeting with Nick Clegg in January 2010. https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10LONDON86_a.html
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    GIN1138 said:

    Charles said:

    The idea being propagated by Remainers especially that Trump or an ally of Trump was behind the leak is utterly absurd. The leak was extremely embarrassing for Trump which is why he was so furious.

    Cui bono in your view?
    That's a question people don't seem to be asking often enough.

    I would say Hunt. That doesn't mean I think he is behind it but I suspect someone who wants Hunt to be PM probably is.

    Besides Darroch himself the 2 people most hurt by this leak are Trump (who has been embarrassed having this said by one of his closest allies) and Boris. Boris has been running a leadership campaign best described as 'don't scare the horses' and this leak has been like a detonation of TNT by the pasture.

    The timing is awfully suspicious for this not to be related to the leadership race and I think it is designed to help the underdog.
    Motive and Opportunity does point in one direction... ;)
    Well indeed. Who currently has clearance? Who does this benefit?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Chris said:

    IanB2 said:

    Latest yougov if BJ is PM:

    Con 23%
    LibDem 23%
    BXP 21%
    Lab 17%

    Calling - or rather trying to engineer - a general election on polling figures like those would require nerves of steel.

    Do people think Boris Johnson has nerves of steel?
    Boris Johnson may find himself in the driving seat, but will the pedals and steering wheel work? He might not have much control over the direction things take.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Scott_P said:
    Someone is going to be eating a lot of porridge.
    Not if Boris is PM.
    Yes, he is the type to interfere in the crime and justice systems.....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Chris said:

    Charles said:

    The idea being propagated by Remainers especially that Trump or an ally of Trump was behind the leak is utterly absurd. The leak was extremely embarrassing for Trump which is why he was so furious.

    Cui bono in your view?
    That's a question people don't seem to be asking often enough.

    I would say Hunt. That doesn't mean I think he is behind it but I suspect someone who wants Hunt to be PM probably is.

    Besides Darroch himself the 2 people most hurt by this leak are Trump (who has been embarrassed having this said by one of his closest allies) and Boris. Boris has been running a leadership campaign best described as 'don't scare the horses' and this leak has been like a detonation of TNT by the pasture.

    The timing is awfully suspicious for this not to be related to the leadership race and I think it is designed to help the underdog.
    How Machiavellian of Jeremy Hunt.
    I dont think Hunt ordered someone to do this or even had advance knowledge it was going to happen. I do think it was done by someone on their own initiative trying to help their boss
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Boris Johnson may find himself in the driving seat, but will the pedals and steering wheel work? He might not have much control over the direction things take.

    https://twitter.com/fatshez/status/1148977408676155392
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Scott_P said:

    Boris Johnson may find himself in the driving seat, but will the pedals and steering wheel work? He might not have much control over the direction things take.

    https://twitter.com/fatshez/status/1148977408676155392
    "We must face the nation with the country behind us!"
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Roger said:

    Like a Coypu?

    Had to look that up - yes sort of!

    But for me the most striking resemblance when it comes to Boris Johnson - and I don't mean this in a gross or obscene way - is with Jimmy Savile.

    I can explain why if there is an appetite.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    He’s such a wet mop.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    edited July 2019
    Remember a 40% vote share for the Liberal Democrats achieves the following:

    1) The end of Boris Johnson as Conservative leader.
    2) The end of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader.
    3) Making Nigel Farage an irrelevance.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Chris said:

    Charles said:

    The idea being propagated by Remainers especially that Trump or an ally of Trump was behind the leak is utterly absurd. The leak was extremely embarrassing for Trump which is why he was so furious.

    Cui bono in your view?
    That's a question people don't seem to be asking often enough.

    I would say Hunt. That doesn't mean I think he is behind it but I suspect someone who wants Hunt to be PM probably is.

    Besides Darroch himself the 2 people most hurt by this leak are Trump (who has been embarrassed having this said by one of his closest allies) and Boris. Boris has been running a leadership campaign best described as 'don't scare the horses' and this leak has been like a detonation of TNT by the pasture.

    The timing is awfully suspicious for this not to be related to the leadership race and I think it is designed to help the underdog.
    How Machiavellian of Jeremy Hunt.
    I dont think Hunt ordered someone to do this or even had advance knowledge it was going to happen. I do think it was done by someone on their own initiative trying to help their boss
    Surely this leak was aimed at undermining the Foreign Secretary (Hunt) and so Boris is the cui who bonos.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Am I the only one to think that now that the entire diplomatic corps and probably most of the civil service is out to get Boris from day one, that his premiership is going to end even more badly than we thought?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    It is probably is too late though isn't it?

    https://twitter.com/PCollinsTimes/status/1148918079293927424
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    stodge said:

    Remember a 40% vote share for the Liberal Democrats achieves the following:

    1) The end of Boris Johnson as Conservative leader.
    2) The end of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader.
    3) Making Nigel Farage an irrelevance.

    We can dream.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    stodge said:

    Remember a 40% vote share for the Liberal Democrats achieves the following:

    1) The end of Boris Johnson as Conservative leader.
    2) The end of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader.
    3) Making Nigel Farage an irrelevance.

    Not necessarily. It could be like NI where the UUP and SDLP were replaced with DUP and Sinn Fein.

    We could see PM Swinson and LOTO Farage.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    Chris said:

    Charles said:

    The idea being propagated by Remainers especially that Trump or an ally of Trump was behind the leak is utterly absurd. The leak was extremely embarrassing for Trump which is why he was so furious.

    Cui bono in your view?
    That's a question people don't seem to be asking often enough.

    I would say Hunt. That doesn't mean I think he is behind it but I suspect someone who wants Hunt to be PM probably is.

    Besides Darroch himself the 2 people most hurt by this leak are Trump (who has been embarrassed having this said by one of his closest allies) and Boris. Boris has been running a leadership campaign best described as 'don't scare the horses' and this leak has been like a detonation of TNT by the pasture.

    The timing is awfully suspicious for this not to be related to the leadership race and I think it is designed to help the underdog.
    How Machiavellian of Jeremy Hunt.
    I dont think Hunt ordered someone to do this or even had advance knowledge it was going to happen. I do think it was done by someone on their own initiative trying to help their boss
    Surely this leak was aimed at undermining the Foreign Secretary (Hunt) and so Boris is the cui who bonos.
    Undermine Hunt by manufacturing a row between him and Trump, in the knowledge that Trump is popular with the Tory membership?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    He’s such a wet mop.
    Blimey. That is one the biggest interview car crashes of all time.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Charles said:

    Darroch isn’t a loser. He did his job and was screwed by someone who leaked confidential reports.

    I would go further - he emerges as the winner in this.

    Close to retirement in any case he goes out in a blaze of glory - revealed to the world by his reports on the Trump administration to be a person of intelligence and sound judgement.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    Fenster said:

    Been too busy to follow politics but how can anyone think Darroch's position is/was tenable?! He had to walk. You can't get busted badmouthing the president of the country you are serving in and expect to keep the chief diplomatic role.

    Resign was the only practical thing he could do.

    Do you really think the purpose of Ambassadors is to report back rose-tinted platitudes about their host government? Every ambassador in the US from all countries (save perhaps Russia) will have been sending similar thoughts to their home governments.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Fenster said:

    Been too busy to follow politics but how can anyone think Darroch's position is/was tenable?! He had to walk. You can't get busted badmouthing the president of the country you are serving in and expect to keep the chief diplomatic role.

    Resign was the only practical thing he could do.

    Do you really think the purpose of Ambassadors is to report back rose-tinted platitudes about their host government? Every ambassador in the US from all countries (save perhaps Russia) will have been sending similar thoughts to their home governments.
    Russian ambassador just reports that their asset is still in place.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    stodge said:

    Remember a 40% vote share for the Liberal Democrats achieves the following:

    1) The end of Boris Johnson as Conservative leader.
    2) The end of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader.
    3) Making Nigel Farage an irrelevance.

    I'd strongly disagree on 3, 1 and 2 highly likely mind.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340

    blueblue said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Latest yougov if BJ is PM:

    Con 23%
    LibDem 23%
    BXP 21%
    Lab 17%

    Poor Labour. :p
    I'll take it!

    IanB2 said:

    Latest yougov if BJ is PM:

    Con 23%
    LibDem 23%
    BXP 21%
    Lab 17%

    That doesn't look like the landslide HYUFD has promised us.
    As long as Labour comes last in a field of four, that's a huge win in my book!
    HYUFD says things with such confidence that they must be true. All is certain in the limited imagination of the BoZo fanatic.
    The shares above add up to 84%, which implies the Greens must be pushing 10% as well. So fifth place is not out of the question!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    I would also say that whoever leaked this probably agreed with the Ambassadors assessment of Trump and was happy to see it more widely publicised.

    Unlikely . The leak was designed to get rid of the ambassador as they knew it would cause a massive problem for the government. What was said in the leak was hardly a shock , most sane people would agree .


This discussion has been closed.