I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No they won't. Parliament voted to leave without a deal as the legal default, and Parliament endorsed 31 October as the date for our exit to automatically occur and Parliament rejected the deal as an alternative. Proroguing Parliament won't change any laws it will just freeze in place the laws Parliament voted to pass already. No fiat.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
Or even these hundreds of thousands of jobs from January 2017:
The chief executive of the London Stock Exchange has warned the UK's vote to leave the EU poses a risk to the global financial system and could cost the City of London up to 230,000 jobs if the Government fails to provide a clear plan for post-Brexit operations.
Speaking to MPs on the Treasury Select Committee, Xavier Rolet said LSE customers simply “would not wait” for clarity over Britain’s divorce from the EU before moving.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Why have Parliament ever sitting again? Clearly all laws that have been passed should never be amended again.
There is nothing stopping MPs from taking back control. That they haven't done so is not the problem of leavers such as Mr Thompson.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
Whilst some heralded the BMG poll yesterday on the headline VIs the poll also showed 53/47 remain leave and most voters want to either scrap brexit or have a second referendum than no deal.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
You seek a return to the age of Charles I where the executive controlled when Parliament sat.
MPs expected with reason that they would get further opportunities to look at this. This is normal. Income tax is passed annually.
If Parliament can be prorogued because nutty zealots spuriously claiming to divine the will of the people are worried that they can't carry MPs, what's to stop the Prime Minister proroguing in advance of a vote of no confidence that he expects to lose?
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Why have Parliament ever sitting again? Clearly all laws that have been passed should never be amended again.
There is nothing stopping MPs from taking back control. That they haven't done so is not the problem of leavers such as Mr Thompson.
The only reason to prologue parliament is to avoid a VONC. It is the move of despots and tyrants.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
It would not be over, even @HYUFD recognises that trade talks would have to start immediately, and what is that if not the WA vs BINO vs WTO discussion continued.
I think that you considerably underestimate the constitutional crisis involved in proroguing Parliament.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (andso it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
Most people in the country actually want a Canada style FTA with the EU, not BINO. That is supported by +20% with ICM compared to just 7% for Norway style EEA
66% take BINO as their first or second option.
More people support a Canada style FTA than support BINO overall, +20% for Canada style FTA to +7% for Norway EEA
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Why have Parliament ever sitting again? Clearly all laws that have been passed should never be amended again.
There is nothing stopping MPs from taking back control. That they haven't done so is not the problem of leavers such as Mr Thompson.
The only reason to prologue parliament is to avoid a VONC. It is the move of despots and tyrants.
Parliament would have to be rerogued (?) at some point. There can't be no parliament for ever and at that point MPs will wreak their revenge. Or not.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Why have Parliament ever sitting again? Clearly all laws that have been passed should never be amended again.
Parliament has voted to change the law but it hasn't occured yet. Parliament has repeatedly rejected all alternatives even at the indicative votes everything was rejected.
So if Parliament is prorogued the laws Parliament has actually passed democratically can be implemented since Parliament failed to get any alternative already.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
Wrong again, it is unlikely there would be a GE as the responsible course of action would be to fix the mess (or perceived mess in petrified remainer eyes if you prefer).
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Perhaps you could give some data as to how many 'short term, minimum wage, zero hour jobs with no training' there are in the economy.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No they won't. Parliament voted to leave without a deal as the legal default, and Parliament endorsed 31 October as the date for our exit to automatically occur and Parliament rejected the deal as an alternative. Proroguing Parliament won't change any laws it will just freeze in place the laws Parliament voted to pass already. No fiat.
Governments do a lot more than just pass laws. There is no such thing as the divine right of Leavers.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No they won't. Parliament voted to leave without a deal as the legal default, and Parliament endorsed 31 October as the date for our exit to automatically occur and Parliament rejected the deal as an alternative. Proroguing Parliament won't change any laws it will just freeze in place the laws Parliament voted to pass already. No fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Perhaps you could give some data as to how many 'short term, minimum wage, zero hour jobs with no training' there are in the economy.
Or perhaps you could? Are you seriously suggesting the proportion of jobs that fit those characteristics has not changed dramatically in the last twenty years?
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Why have Parliament ever sitting again? Clearly all laws that have been passed should never be amended again.
There is nothing stopping MPs from taking back control. That they haven't done so is not the problem of leavers such as Mr Thompson.
The only reason to prologue parliament is to avoid a VONC. It is the move of despots and tyrants.
Parliament would have to be rerogued (?) at some point. There can't be no parliament for ever and at that point MPs will wreak their revenge. Or not.
The other question is whether Parliament permits itself to be prorogued. Usually prorogation is by consent, for recess or an election, but this would be unprecedented in modern times.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
And you are a Remainer not a Leaver. As such you who are in the wrong party.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Manufacturing employment has increased for the last 3 quarters. Despite the reckless incompetence of our politicians in maximising Brexit uncertainty there is nothing other than anecdotes to support your hypothesis.
That said we should of course go for a deal and a harmonious relationship with the EU going forward. May's deal is the only one on the table and MPs should have accepted it months ago. There are risks with no deal and it is not sensible to run them unnecessarily. But the hyperbole of the assertions of those determined not to leave undermines their case, just as it did in 2016.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
You seek a return to the age of Charles I where the executive controlled when Parliament sat.
MPs expected with reason that they would get further opportunities to look at this. This is normal. Income tax is passed annually.
If Parliament can be prorogued because nutty zealots spuriously claiming to divine the will of the people are worried that they can't carry MPs, what's to stop the Prime Minister proroguing in advance of a vote of no confidence that he expects to lose?
The executive has prorogued Parliament for political purposes previously. So not Charles I.
In your scenario if that happens the executive would remain incapable of changing any laws until proroguation was lifted.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Why have Parliament ever sitting again? Clearly all laws that have been passed should never be amended again.
There is nothing stopping MPs from taking back control. That they haven't done so is not the problem of leavers such as Mr Thompson.
The only reason to prologue parliament is to avoid a VONC. It is the move of despots and tyrants.
Parliament would have to be rerogued (?) at some point. There can't be no parliament for ever and at that point MPs will wreak their revenge. Or not.
The other question is whether Parliament permits itself to be prorogued. Usually prorogation is by consent, for recess or an election, but this would be unprecedented in modern times.
I mean you can't say politics is boring at the moment.
Plus there's Rory setting up shop in Starbucks across the way with his parliament.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
Just stop attacking fellow conservatives. Your intolerance is unacceptable.
Many of us in the party will fight against extreme dogma and economic armageddon
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No they won't. Parliament voted to leave without a deal as the legal default, and Parliament endorsed 31 October as the date for our exit to automatically occur and Parliament rejected the deal as an alternative. Proroguing Parliament won't change any laws it will just freeze in place the laws Parliament voted to pass already. No fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
The Tories and DUP won a majority of seats across the UK committed to Brexit, Deal or No Deal. Even May said 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'.
That followed 52% of UK voters voting for Brexit at the 2016 referendum
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
HUYFD would be advocating invading Europe if he'd seen a poll that showed it increased the Tory vote share by a couple of points
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Manufacturing employment has increased for the last 3 quarters. Despite the reckless incompetence of our politicians in maximising Brexit uncertainty there is nothing other than anecdotes to support your hypothesis.
That said we should of course go for a deal and a harmonious relationship with the EU going forward. May's deal is the only one on the table and MPs should have accepted it months ago. There are risks with no deal and it is not sensible to run them unnecessarily. But the hyperbole of the assertions of those determined not to leave undermines their case, just as it did in 2016.
I am not determined not to leave. Starting from here the best course of action is to implement the WA. I am very opposed to no deal, even more so if delivered by a coup.
If leavers want to leave, then reach out more to people like me who will accept leave with a deal but are against no deal rather than assuming we are all against everything.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No they won't. Parliament voted to leave without a deal as the legal default, and Parliament endorsed 31 October as the date for our exit to automatically occur and Parliament rejected the deal as an alternative. Proroguing Parliament won't change any laws it will just freeze in place the laws Parliament voted to pass already. No fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
Parties that opposed everything got the most votes. What is opposed is irrelevant what is passed is what matters.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Indeed. This is the position of fanatics. The thin edge of the wedge to despotism. Anyone with even a vague understanding of history can see it.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
HUYFD would be advocating invading Europe if he'd seen a poll that showed it increased the Tory vote share by a couple of points
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
By your definition. Can you point me to the Conservative party rule which makes support of Brexit mandatory for members ?
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Indeed. This is the position of fanatics. The thin edge of the wedge to despotism. Anyone with even a vague understanding of history can see it.
"If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. ..."
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Indeed. This is the position of fanatics. The thin edge of the wedge to despotism. Anyone with even a vague understanding of history can see it.
"If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. ..."
Happens every single year. We are talking a short not permanent proroguation.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 ded.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
And you are a Remainer not a Leaver. As such you who are in the wrong party.
No, I now respect the will of the people and back Brexit Deal or No Deal and ideally a Canada style FTA ultimately
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No they won't. Parliament voted to leave without a deal as the legal default, and Parliament endorsed 31 October as the date for our exit to automatically occur and Parliament rejected the deal as an alternative. Proroguing Parliament won't change any laws it will just freeze in place the laws Parliament voted to pass already. No fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
Parties that opposed everything got the most votes. What is opposed is irrelevant what is passed is what matters.
What was supported was leave with a deal. Not no deal or remain so they should be taking off the table. The only leading politician pushing that was Rory Stewart.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There Remainers.
OK delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If tNot The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No they won't. Parliament voted to leave without a deal as the legal default, and Parliament endorsed 31 October as the date for our exit to automatically occur and Parliament rejected the deal as an alternative. Proroguing Parliament won't change any laws it will just freeze in place the laws Parliament voted to pass already. No fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
Parties that opposed everything got the most votes. What is opposed is irrelevant what is passed is what matters.
Indeed - and what closing down Parliament does is prevents a democratically elected House of Commons passing things. Your commitment to democracy is, at best, tenuous.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult ed.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
Just stop attacking fellow conservatives. Your intolerance is unacceptable.
Many of us in the party will fight against extreme dogma and economic armageddon
If stopping Brexit is the be all and end all for you you know longer are connected to the majoroty of Tory members and voters so you are better off in the LDs
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Indeed. This is the position of fanatics. The thin edge of the wedge to despotism. Anyone with even a vague understanding of history can see it.
"If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. ..."
Happens every single year. We are talking a short not permanent proroguation.
For political reasons.
You are everything that Britons have been rightly proud to stand against throughout recent history.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
I fear HY is a fair weather remainer.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Manufacturing employment has increased for the last 3 quarters. Despite the reckless incompetence of our politicians in maximising Brexit uncertainty there is nothing other than anecdotes to support your hypothesis.
That said we should of course go for a deal and a harmonious relationship with the EU going forward. May's deal is the only one on the table and MPs should have accepted it months ago. There are risks with no deal and it is not sensible to run them unnecessarily. But the hyperbole of the assertions of those determined not to leave undermines their case, just as it did in 2016.
I am not determined not to leave. Starting from here the best course of action is to implement the WA. I am very opposed to no deal, even more so if delivered by a coup.
If leavers want to leave, then reach out more to people like me who will accept leave with a deal but are against no deal rather than assuming we are all against everything.
May tried that. Parliament voted three times to reject a BINO transition and to keep No Deal as the law instead.
No, I now respect the will of the people and back Brexit Deal or No Deal and ideally a Canada style FTA ultimately
You are not a leaver. It is you who are in the wrong party. In the only formal expression of the issue you backed remain. You should look around for a party which reflects your views. I believe atm that would be the LibDems.
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Manufacturing employment has increased for the last 3 quarters. Despite the reckless incompetence of our politicians in maximising Brexit uncertainty there is nothing other than anecdotes to support your hypothesis.
That said we should of course go for a deal and a harmonious relationship with the EU going forward. May's deal is the only one on the table and MPs should have accepted it months ago. There are risks with no deal and it is not sensible to run them unnecessarily. But the hyperbole of the assertions of those determined not to leave undermines their case, just as it did in 2016.
I am not determined not to leave. Starting from here the best course of action is to implement the WA. I am very opposed to no deal, even more so if delivered by a coup.
If leavers want to leave, then reach out more to people like me who will accept leave with a deal but are against no deal rather than assuming we are all against everything.
Fair enough. We agree. I also want the WA. I also do not want no deal. I also think proroguing Parliament is undemocratic and just plain stupid.
What we are seeing, I hope, is a negotiation by which those of a mind similar to yours in Parliament are pushed into supporting the WA because no deal under Boris is a real possibility. May tried taking no deal off the table and remainers then blocked her deal too. Its a high risk game and I understand why people are upset that we are running it at all but May tried all of the alternatives to no avail.
The executive has prorogued Parliament for political purposes previously. So not Charles I.
In your scenario if that happens the executive would remain incapable of changing any laws until proroguation was lifted.
In case you hadn't noticed, that's exactly how Charles I proceeded for 11 years.
We aren't talking an 11 year proroguation, we are talking one of a few weeks like happens almost every summer.
No, not like happens almost every summer. Governments do not seek to frustrate the will of Parliament to impose an irrevocable decision on the country. It would be a serious degradation of democracy.
And an awful precedent for others to abuse in future.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No tNo fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
The Tories and DUP won a majority of seats across the UK committed to Brexit, Deal or No Deal. Even May said 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'.
That followed 52% of UK voters voting for Brexit at the 2016 referendum
A majority of the seats is not the same as a majority of the votes. The will of the people is Brexit, but no No Deal. There is a WDA that can get through the Commons, but you and your party will not support it because it means the party will split. Party before country. You support a football team.
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
BINO isn't a compromise it's a fraud.
The WDA is a massive compromise.
Agreed, Remainers could have backed the WDA, most refused so if it is No Deal so be it
You guys are going to be politically obliterated... It is stark staring madness.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Indeed. This is the position of fanatics. The thin edge of the wedge to despotism. Anyone with even a vague understanding of history can see it.
"If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. ..."
Happens every single year. We are talking a short not permanent proroguation.
For political reasons.
You are everything that Britons have been rightly proud to stand against throughout recent history.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
It would not be over, even @HYUFD recognises that trade talks would have to start immediately, and what is that if not the WA vs BINO vs WTO discussion continued.
I think that you considerably underestimate the constitutional crisis involved in proroguing Parliament.
Has Parliament been prorogued against the will of the Commons since Charles I?
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
That said we should of course go for a deal and a harmonious relationship with the EU going forward. May's deal is the only one on the table and MPs should have accepted it months ago. There are risks with no deal and it is not sensible to run them unnecessarily. But the hyperbole of the assertions of those determined not to leave undermines their case, just as it did in 2016.
I am not determined not to leave. Starting from here the best course of action is to implement the WA. I am very opposed to no deal, even more so if delivered by a coup.
If leavers want to leave, then reach out more to people like me who will accept leave with a deal but are against no deal rather than assuming we are all against everything.
May tried that. Parliament voted three times to reject a BINO transition and to keep No Deal as the law instead.
She belatedly tried when she had already announced her resignation. Before that I was apparently a citizen of nowhere and an enemy of the people.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult ed.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
Just stop attacking fellow conservatives. Your intolerance is unacceptable.
Many of us in the party will fight against extreme dogma and economic armageddon
If stopping Brexit is the be all and end all for you you know longer are connected to the majoroty of Tory members and voters so you are better off in the LDs
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
It is about quality jobs. There is a huge difference between working for 10 years plus at somewhere like Nissan, Airbus, Dyson, Honda and flitting from job to job on short term, minimum wage, zero hours jobs with no training. The latter are plentiful and will probably stay so after Brexit.
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
Perhaps you could give some data as to how many 'short term, minimum wage, zero hour jobs with no training' there are in the economy.
Or perhaps you could? Are you seriously suggesting the proportion of jobs that fit those characteristics has not changed dramatically in the last twenty years?
For a start the number of temporary employees has fallen significantly:
Twenty years ago 7.2% of employees were temps and 34.6 of those were because they couldn't find a full time job.
While currently only 5.2% of employees are temps with 25.2% of those because they cannot find a full time job.
In absolute numbers the number of involuntary temporary workers has fallen from 588 thousand twenty years ago to 375 thousand now.
Here's the ONS data if you want to look for yourself.
Despite the changes in the labour market and workforce over the last twenty years its not all doom and gloom, there have been advantages and new opportunities together with negative aspects.
And despite all the media hype the likes of zero hour jobs really do make up a small proportion of employment.
The executive has prorogued Parliament for political purposes previously. So not Charles I.
In your scenario if that happens the executive would remain incapable of changing any laws until proroguation was lifted.
In case you hadn't noticed, that's exactly how Charles I proceeded for 11 years.
We aren't talking an 11 year proroguation, we are talking one of a few weeks like happens almost every summer.
No, not like happens almost every summer. Governments do not seek to frustrate the will of Parliament to impose an irrevocable decision on the country. It would be a serious degradation of democracy.
And an awful precedent for others to abuse in future.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and d for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the my in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
I fear HY is a fair weather remainer.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
Prorugue Parliament in October to enforce Brexit by October 31st as I have said then hold an election in November once Brexit is delivered as I said earlier if there is no election before October
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
No, I now respect the will of the people and back Brexit Deal or No Deal and ideally a Canada style FTA ultimately
You are not a leaver. It is you who are in the wrong party. In the only formal expression of the issue you backed remain. You should look around for a party which reflects your views. I believe atm that would be the LibDems.
I back Brexit Deal or No Deal as 52% of voters voted for and I back the Tories not the LDs, I respect democracy (and even in 2016 I was almost 50 50 and would have voted Leave had membership of the Euro been on the cards)
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No tNo fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
The Tories and DUP won a majority of seats across the UK committed to Brexit, Deal or No Deal. Even May said 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'.
That followed 52% of UK voters voting for Brexit at the 2016 referendum
A majority of the seats is not the same as a majority of the votes. The will of the people is Brexit, but no No Deal. There is a WDA that can get through the Commons, but you and your party will not support it because it means the party will split. Party before country. You support a football team.
The will of the people is Brexit with a FTA only ideally, not BINO
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
BINO isn't a compromise it's a fraud.
The WDA is a massive compromise.
Agreed, Remainers could have backed the WDA, most refused so if it is No Deal so be it
You guys are going to be politically obliterated... It is stark staring madness.
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
BINO isn't a compromise it's a fraud.
The WDA is a massive compromise.
Agreed, Remainers could have backed the WDA, most refused so if it is No Deal so be it
You guys are going to be politically obliterated... It is stark staring madness.
To those seeking it there is no downside apparently And if there is well that’s what you voted for.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No tNo fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
The Tories and DUP won a majority of seats across the UK committed to Brexit, Deal or No Deal. Even May said 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'.
That followed 52% of UK voters voting for Brexit at the 2016 referendum
A majority of the seats is not the same as a majority of the votes. The will of the people is Brexit, but no No Deal. There is a WDA that can get through the Commons, but you and your party will not support it because it means the party will split. Party before country. You support a football team.
The will of the people is Brexit with a FTA only ideally, not BINO
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There Remainers.
OK delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
No tNo fiat.
In other words, closing down Parliament will prevent elected MPs from extending the deadline, despite parties that opposed No Deal getting most votes in the last GE.
The Tories and DUP won a majority of seats across the UK committed to Brexit, Deal or No Deal. Even May said 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'.
That followed 52% of UK voters voting for Brexit at the 2016 referendum
A majority of the seats is not the same as a majority of the votes. The will of the people is Brexit, but no No Deal. There is a WDA that can get through the Commons, but you and your party will not support it because it means the party will split. Party before country. You support a football team.
The will of the people is Brexit with a FTA only ideally, not BINO
The will of the people is measured in public votes. These tell us that the people want Brexit but do not want it without a deal. That is all we know. The rest is opinion polls - and these tell us very different things depending on the timing and the question.
The way to take no deal off the table forever is to pass a deal. If Parliament can't be arsed to.do that it shouldn't complain if the legal default it bas voted to pass as law occurs instead.
Perhaps you could give some data as to how many 'short term, minimum wage, zero hour jobs with no training' there are in the economy.
Or perhaps you could? Are you seriously suggesting the proportion of jobs that fit those characteristics has not changed dramatically in the last twenty years?
For a start the number of temporary employees has fallen significantly:
Twenty years ago 7.2% of employees were temps and 34.6 of those were because they couldn't find a full time job.
While currently only 5.2% of employees are temps with 25.2% of those because they cannot find a full time job.
In absolute numbers the number of involuntary temporary workers has fallen from 588 thousand twenty years ago to 375 thousand now.
Here's the ONS data if you want to look for yourself.
Despite the changes in the labour market and workforce over the last twenty years its not all doom and gloom, there have been advantages and new opportunities together with negative aspects.
And despite all the media hype the likes of zero hour jobs really do make up a small proportion of employment.
What is genuinely interesting and concerning is why this increase in full time, permanent employment is not being reflected in the productivity figures. My hypothesis is that cheap and plentiful labour has discouraged capital investment. If that is right then rising real wages should drive productivity.
Does 'to beat off the Brexit party' refer to upcoming PM Boris's attempts to woo Farage and co in aid of his very shoogly house of cards? (apols if anyone has already made this puerile crack)
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rothe appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Boris will deliver Brexit, you are now committed to stop Brexit, by definition you are now a LD not a Tory
By your definition. Can you point me to the Conservative party rule which makes support of Brexit mandatory for members ?
He would like it to be so. Many of these entryist fanatics and Boris wet-dreamers have absolutely no understanding of the history of the Conservative Party and the history of their own country. They are not really Conservatives. Many are English nationalists, many are, like him, weirdly fixated with Boris Johnson, the most unqualified fool to have been leader of the Party in its history (barring IDS).
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and d for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the my in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
I fear HY is a fair weather remainer.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
Prorugue Parliament in October to enforce Brexit by October 31st as I have said then hold an election in November once Brexit is delivered as I said earlier if there is no election before October
When was parliament last prorogued against the will of the Commons?
The executive has prorogued Parliament for political purposes previously. So not Charles I.
In your scenario if that happens the executive would remain incapable of changing any laws until proroguation was lifted.
In case you hadn't noticed, that's exactly how Charles I proceeded for 11 years.
We aren't talking an 11 year proroguation, we are talking one of a few weeks like happens almost every summer.
No, not like happens almost every summer. Governments do not seek to frustrate the will of Parliament to impose an irrevocable decision on the country. It would be a serious degradation of democracy.
And an awful precedent for others to abuse in future.
Indeed. It is a disgrace that any MP could be advocating such a step. And they talk about "democracy" FFS
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and d for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the my in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
I fear HY is a fair weather remainer.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
Prorugue Parliament in October to enforce Brexit by October 31st as I have said then hold an election in November once Brexit is delivered as I said earlier if there is no election before October
When was parliament last prorogued against the will of the Commons?
The executive has prorogued Parliament for political purposes previously. So not Charles I.
In your scenario if that happens the executive would remain incapable of changing any laws until proroguation was lifted.
In case you hadn't noticed, that's exactly how Charles I proceeded for 11 years.
We aren't talking an 11 year proroguation, we are talking one of a few weeks like happens almost every summer.
No, not like happens almost every summer. Governments do not seek to frustrate the will of Parliament to impose an irrevocable decision on the country. It would be a serious degradation of democracy.
And an awful precedent for others to abuse in future.
I completely agree. This is madness.
Indeed. Close your eyes and imagine Chris Williamson, as leader of the commons, being able to use this new neat trick to stop MPs having any control of the executive.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Indeed. This is the position of fanatics. The thin edge of the wedge to despotism. Anyone with even a vague understanding of history can see it.
"If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. ..."
Happens every single year. We are talking a short not permanent proroguation.
For political reasons.
You are everything that Britons have been rightly proud to stand against throughout recent history.
But there is no way out of this mess that doesn't go through Brexit, and increasingly it looks like no deal.
There is a large enough group of people, apparently including the bulk of the conservative party that have come to view Brexit as an article of faith. Until it's delivered in some form, they will never move on, any step back will be viewed as a stab in the back.
Brexit may be a disaster in economic terms, but that argument is of the past, getting back to normal politics is now more important.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and d for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Deasy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the my in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
I fear HY is a fair weather remainer.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
Prorugue Parliament in October to enforce Brexit by October 31st as I have said then hold an election in November once Brexit is delivered as I said earlier if there is no election before October
When was parliament last prorogued against the will of the Commons?
Charles I?
Cromwell chucked them all out several times. Not sure it was a prorogration tho
Andrew Bridget is a thick twat still selling crap like GATT 24 and all the other fairy tales they have spun, Even claims the tariffs can just be used to pay back the increased costs.
Perhaps you could give some data as to how many 'short term, minimum wage, zero hour jobs with no training' there are in the economy.
Or perhaps you could? Are you seriously suggesting the proportion of jobs that fit those characteristics has not changed dramatically in the last twenty years?
For a start the number of temporary employees has fallen significantly:
Twenty years ago 7.2% of employees were temps and 34.6 of those were because they couldn't find a full time job.
While currently only 5.2% of employees are temps with 25.2% of those because they cannot find a full time job.
In absolute numbers the number of involuntary temporary workers has fallen from 588 thousand twenty years ago to 375 thousand now.
Here's the ONS data if you want to look for yourself.
Despite the changes in the labour market and workforce over the last twenty years its not all doom and gloom, there have been advantages and new opportunities together with negative aspects.
And despite all the media hype the likes of zero hour jobs really do make up a small proportion of employment.
What is genuinely interesting and concerning is why this increase in full time, permanent employment is not being reflected in the productivity figures. My hypothesis is that cheap and plentiful labour has discouraged capital investment. If that is right then rising real wages should drive productivity.
My view as well. A key driver of the Industrial Revolution was the relatively expensive wages and scarcity of artisans
But there is no way out of this mess that doesn't go through Brexit, and increasingly it looks like no deal.
There is a large enough group of people, apparently including the bulk of the conservative party that have come to view Brexit as an article of faith. Until it's delivered in some form, they will never move on, any step back will be viewed as a stab in the back.
Brexit may be a disaster in economic terms, but that argument is of the past, getting back to normal politics is now more important.
But there is no way out of this mess that doesn't go through Brexit, and increasingly it looks like no deal.
There is a large enough group of people, apparently including the bulk of the conservative party that have come to view Brexit as an article of faith. Until it's delivered in some form, they will never move on, any step back will be viewed as a stab in the back.
Brexit may be a disaster in economic terms, but that argument is of the past, getting back to normal politics is now more important.
A No Deal Brexit will not return us to normal politics. If that is really what Tories believe they are in for a very rude awakening.
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the my in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
I fear HY is a fair weather remainer.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
Prorugue Parliament in October to enforce Brexit by October 31st as I have said then hold an election in November once Brexit is delivered as I said earlier if there is no election before October
When was parliament last prorogued against the will of the Commons?
Charles I?
Cromwell chucked them all out several times. Not sure it was a prorogration tho
Close enough for government work. Much more recent then.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Deasy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the my in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
They respect democracy also. It's quite a simple point - they are standing for election on a manifesto. If enough people vote for them they will implement that manifesto. I don't think you could get a purer form of democracy than that. Can they count on your vote?
I fear HY is a fair weather remainer.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
Prorugue Parliament in October to enforce Brexit by October 31st as I have said then hold an election in November once Brexit is delivered as I said earlier if there is no election before October
When was parliament last prorogued against the will of the Commons?
Charles I?
Cromwell chucked them all out several times. Not sure it was a prorogration tho
Mr B2: Cromwell was a despot, but I suspect he has more leadership ability in his left earlobe than Boris Johnson has in his whole lardy body.
Jennie Formby is attacking Tom Watson for his criticism of her following the Panorama programme as she is undergoing chemotheraphy.
Really sad that she is using personal health to deflect from addressing the serious issues labour are facing
Note that she uses her health to try and deflect criticism but shows no interest in or concern for the health of those junior staff working for the party. Nor does she criticise those who have attacked those staff suffering mental health problems as a result of the culture she presided over.
No, I now respect the will of the people and back Brexit Deal or No Deal and ideally a Canada style FTA ultimately
You are not a leaver. It is you who are in the wrong party. In the only formal expression of the issue you backed remain. You should look around for a party which reflects your views. I believe atm that would be the LibDems.
I back Brexit Deal or No Deal as 52% of voters voted for and I back the Tories not the LDs, I respect democracy (and even in 2016 I was almost 50 50 and would have voted Leave had membership of the Euro been on the cards)
woulda shoulda coulda. In the only formal register of votes you voted Remain. Get thee to the LDs.
Jennie Formby is attacking Tom Watson for his criticism of her following the Panorama programme as she is undergoing chemotheraphy.
Really sad that she is using personal health to deflect from addressing the serious issues labour are facing
Note that she uses her health to try and deflect criticism but shows no interest in or concern for the health of those junior staff working for the party. Nor does she criticise those who have attacked those staff suffering mental health problems as a result of the culture she presided over.
"As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD."
it was the Tory party which took us into the EEC which became the EU. Half the Labour party was opposed to membership, along with I think ~5-10% of Tories. The Liberals were always strongly in favour of membership but were not at all the same party.
Heath or Macmillan never proposed a Con-Lib merger with Thorpe or Grimond. It would have been ridiculous. Both parties had their own coherent policies.
The wing of the 'Tory' party which now opposes EU membership and advocates a flat tax/small state future should advocate PR and form a different political party, in order to stop breaching consumer legislation on misrepresentation.
That's just partisan rubbish. The WA does keep us in the SM and Customs Union for the transitional period. Those are some of its attractions. It also sets the context in which the future relationship will be negotiated. I suspect that there will be a lot of pressure to agree to stay in alignment with the regulation of the SM for untrammeled access, for example.
Close enough for government work. Much more recent then.
So we can conclude that those who advocate pushing through no deal by prorogation are advocating a course of action which has not been used since the 17th century and when it was last used it led to a civil war.
Jennie Formby is attacking Tom Watson for his criticism of her following the Panorama programme as she is undergoing chemotheraphy.
Really sad that she is using personal health to deflect from addressing the serious issues labour are facing
Note that she uses her health to try and deflect criticism but shows no interest in or concern for the health of those junior staff working for the party. Nor does she criticise those who have attacked those staff suffering mental health problems as a result of the culture she presided over.
Jennie Formby is attacking Tom Watson for his criticism of her following the Panorama programme as she is undergoing chemotheraphy.
Really sad that she is using personal health to deflect from addressing the serious issues labour are facing
Note that she uses her health to try and deflect criticism but shows no interest in or concern for the health of those junior staff working for the party. Nor does she criticise those who have attacked those staff suffering mental health problems as a result of the culture she presided over.
Comments
I am talking about long term quality jobs that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives (and they tend to be swing voters!).
The chief executive of the London Stock Exchange has warned the UK's vote to leave the EU poses a risk to the global financial system and could cost the City of London up to 230,000 jobs if the Government fails to provide a clear plan for post-Brexit operations.
Speaking to MPs on the Treasury Select Committee, Xavier Rolet said LSE customers simply “would not wait” for clarity over Britain’s divorce from the EU before moving.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-london-city-jobs-losses-lse-boss-warning-uk-eu-a7519396.html
MPs expected with reason that they would get further opportunities to look at this. This is normal. Income tax is passed annually.
If Parliament can be prorogued because nutty zealots spuriously claiming to divine the will of the people are worried that they can't carry MPs, what's to stop the Prime Minister proroguing in advance of a vote of no confidence that he expects to lose?
I think that you considerably underestimate the constitutional crisis involved in proroguing Parliament.
So if Parliament is prorogued the laws Parliament has actually passed democratically can be implemented since Parliament failed to get any alternative already.
Manufacturing employment has increased for the last 3 quarters. Despite the reckless incompetence of our politicians in maximising Brexit uncertainty there is nothing other than anecdotes to support your hypothesis.
That said we should of course go for a deal and a harmonious relationship with the EU going forward. May's deal is the only one on the table and MPs should have accepted it months ago. There are risks with no deal and it is not sensible to run them unnecessarily. But the hyperbole of the assertions of those determined not to leave undermines their case, just as it did in 2016.
#RuthForFM
In your scenario if that happens the executive would remain incapable of changing any laws until proroguation was lifted.
Plus there's Rory setting up shop in Starbucks across the way with his parliament.
Many of us in the party will fight against extreme dogma and economic armageddon
That followed 52% of UK voters voting for Brexit at the 2016 referendum
If leavers want to leave, then reach out more to people like me who will accept leave with a deal but are against no deal rather than assuming we are all against everything.
Can you point me to the Conservative party rule which makes support of Brexit mandatory for members ?
You are everything that Britons have been rightly proud to stand against throughout recent history.
But what will the great Bozo do now that Portillo says the Tories don't want HY's early election?
What we are seeing, I hope, is a negotiation by which those of a mind similar to yours in Parliament are pushed into supporting the WA because no deal under Boris is a real possibility. May tried taking no deal off the table and remainers then blocked her deal too. Its a high risk game and I understand why people are upset that we are running it at all but May tried all of the alternatives to no avail.
And an awful precedent for others to abuse in future.
Twenty years ago 7.2% of employees were temps and 34.6 of those were because they couldn't find a full time job.
While currently only 5.2% of employees are temps with 25.2% of those because they cannot find a full time job.
In absolute numbers the number of involuntary temporary workers has fallen from 588 thousand twenty years ago to 375 thousand now.
Here's the ONS data if you want to look for yourself.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/summaryoflabourmarketstatistics
Despite the changes in the labour market and workforce over the last twenty years its not all doom and gloom, there have been advantages and new opportunities together with negative aspects.
And despite all the media hype the likes of zero hour jobs really do make up a small proportion of employment.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/04/21/is-it-bye-bye-to-by-elections/
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/04/27/bye-bye-by-elections-part-2-mps-who-resigned-their-seats-and-stood-in-the-ensuing-by-election/
(apols if anyone has already made this puerile crack)
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1102750703771152384
March 1629. Didn't end well as I recall.
There is a large enough group of people, apparently including the bulk of the conservative party that have come to view Brexit as an article of faith. Until it's delivered in some form, they will never move on, any step back will be viewed as a stab in the back.
Brexit may be a disaster in economic terms, but that argument is of the past, getting back to normal politics is now more important.
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1149600489358520321
https://tinyurl.com/yxqjnxto
Just look at how many jobs are going. That said, I am told that those who put the road cars together don't get paid a particularly good wage.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/legal-system-robust-enough-to-handle-pressure-of-alex-salmond-case-1-4862851
https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1149609599231676421
Good morrow, fair Corbynista. How's it hanging?
"As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD."
it was the Tory party which took us into the EEC which became the EU. Half the Labour party was opposed to membership, along with I think ~5-10% of Tories. The Liberals were always strongly in favour of membership but were not at all the same party.
Heath or Macmillan never proposed a Con-Lib merger with Thorpe or Grimond. It would have been ridiculous. Both parties had their own coherent policies.
The wing of the 'Tory' party which now opposes EU membership and advocates a flat tax/small state future should advocate PR and form a different political party, in order to stop breaching consumer legislation on misrepresentation.