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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » 2020 now edging toward the favourite slot in Next General Elec

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » 2020 now edging toward the favourite slot in Next General Election year betting

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,212
    edited July 2019
    This is Alastair’s doing.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2019
    Second, like Better Together II
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    I think 2021 is an underestimated runner in this market.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    tlg86 said:

    I think 2021 is an underestimated runner in this market.

    It's probably a good trading bet, at least.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Personally 2022 should in my view be favourite. To get an election early there has to be a majority of MPs voting to have one. It's not particularly easy to see when it's going to be in the interests of a majority of the current batch of MPs to have an election.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,888
    Laying a 2019 GE for small-medium stakes makes sense - the opportunities an GE betting wise would offer should be able to cover any loss.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,128

    Personally 2022 should in my view be favourite. To get an election early there has to be a majority of MPs voting to have one. It's not particularly easy to see when it's going to be in the interests of a majority of the current batch of MPs to have an election.

    After next by-election in Wales, it is very likely government will have a working majority of 1. Not sustainable for any length of time.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,666
    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Personally 2022 should in my view be favourite. To get an election early there has to be a majority of MPs voting to have one. It's not particularly easy to see when it's going to be in the interests of a majority of the current batch of MPs to have an election.

    After next by-election in Wales, it is very likely government will have a working majority of 1. Not sustainable for any length of time.
    The fact that the government doesn't have a working majority does not mean that the majority of Parliament will want a general election. In fact, it's fairly unlikely as things stand at present.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024
    For all the bollox spouted about 'austerity' and claims that imported goods are 30% more expensive retail sales set another new record high:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/bulletins/retailsales/june2019

    With retail sales having increased by 10% since the Referendum we should be grateful that there's also been a big increase in exports otherwise the trade deficit would be at very high levels.

    And while internet retailing is showing the biggest gains store retailing, with the exception of department stores, is also doing well.

    Despite the doom and gloom about high streets and high profile retail redundancies there are clearly lots of retail businesses who are doing very nicely.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,924
    edited July 2019

    For all the bollox spouted about 'austerity' and claims that imported goods are 30% more expensive retail sales set another new record high:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/bulletins/retailsales/june2019

    With retail sales having increased by 10% since the Referendum we should be grateful that there's also been a big increase in exports otherwise the trade deficit would be at very high levels.

    And while internet retailing is showing the biggest gains store retailing, with the exception of department stores, is also doing well.

    Despite the doom and gloom about high streets and high profile retail redundancies there are clearly lots of retail businesses who are doing very nicely.

    Sales figures can hide a lot - for instance increased costs of sales...

    If not all the 30% increase in import prices is passed on to the consumer (say the market can only cope with a 20% increase in retail price) then there is a margin hit and reduced profitability.

    And if sales are up 10% but prices up 20% then the actual amount of physical goods sold is down 9% or so.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Does anyone remember what stage the boundary review is at?

    Has it been formally killed off again, or is it still pending a vote in the Commons?

    If my memory is right we're still using the 2010 boundaries, that themselves were implemented late, rather than in 2005 as they should have been, and so are based on the 2001 electoral register. Is this a dubious record in the period of universal suffrage?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024

    Personally 2022 should in my view be favourite. To get an election early there has to be a majority of MPs voting to have one. It's not particularly easy to see when it's going to be in the interests of a majority of the current batch of MPs to have an election.

    If you're right that means three years of non-governing government.

    Do you think that is possible given the challenges which will arise, including very likely a recession ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Scott_P said:
    About as surprising he picked this as Jezza meeting with an extremist.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,606
    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    I can believe that. What percentage of green voters and potential voters might be in be favour. I think that might be 2/3 in favour for recent voters and 3/4 in favour for potential voters.

    As with all the political parties voters views seem to be ignored at the expense of members. For me that is a very bad thing but guess the activists across the parties feel differently.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,924

    Does anyone remember what stage the boundary review is at?

    Has it been formally killed off again, or is it still pending a vote in the Commons?

    If my memory is right we're still using the 2010 boundaries, that themselves were implemented late, rather than in 2005 as they should have been, and so are based on the 2001 electoral register. Is this a dubious record in the period of universal suffrage?

    From https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/2018-review/
    website said:


    Our final recommendations were presented to Government on 5 September 2018. You can view the reports here. It is the responsibility of the Government to make those recommendations into draft legislation to be debated by Parliament.

  • eekeek Posts: 24,924
    edited July 2019
    eek said:

    Does anyone remember what stage the boundary review is at?

    Has it been formally killed off again, or is it still pending a vote in the Commons?

    If my memory is right we're still using the 2010 boundaries, that themselves were implemented late, rather than in 2005 as they should have been, and so are based on the 2001 electoral register. Is this a dubious record in the period of universal suffrage?

    From https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/2018-review/
    website said:


    Our final recommendations were presented to Government on 5 September 2018. You can view the reports here. It is the responsibility of the Government to make those recommendations into draft legislation to be debated by Parliament.

    and https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/boundaries-in-limbo/ says it's in limbo which makes sense as we've heard nothing since September and something else is consuming most of Parliament's (and this site's) time
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Personally 2022 should in my view be favourite. To get an election early there has to be a majority of MPs voting to have one. It's not particularly easy to see when it's going to be in the interests of a majority of the current batch of MPs to have an election.

    If you're right that means three years of non-governing government.

    Do you think that is possible given the challenges which will arise, including very likely a recession ?
    Possible? Yes, very.

    Desirable? Different question.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024
    eek said:

    For all the bollox spouted about 'austerity' and claims that imported goods are 30% more expensive retail sales set another new record high:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/bulletins/retailsales/june2019

    With retail sales having increased by 10% since the Referendum we should be grateful that there's also been a big increase in exports otherwise the trade deficit would be at very high levels.

    And while internet retailing is showing the biggest gains store retailing, with the exception of department stores, is also doing well.

    Despite the doom and gloom about high streets and high profile retail redundancies there are clearly lots of retail businesses who are doing very nicely.

    Sales figures can hide a lot - for instance increased costs of sales...

    If not all the 30% increase in import prices is passed on to the consumer (say the market can only cope with a 20% increase in retail price) then there is a margin hit and reduced profitability.

    And if sales are up 10% but prices up 20% then the actual amount of physical goods sold is down 9% or so.
    Sales VOLUMES are up 10%.

    Believe it or not but the amount of items which are being bought continues to increase.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,180
    eek said:

    For all the bollox spouted about 'austerity' and claims that imported goods are 30% more expensive retail sales set another new record high:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/bulletins/retailsales/june2019

    With retail sales having increased by 10% since the Referendum we should be grateful that there's also been a big increase in exports otherwise the trade deficit would be at very high levels.

    And while internet retailing is showing the biggest gains store retailing, with the exception of department stores, is also doing well.

    Despite the doom and gloom about high streets and high profile retail redundancies there are clearly lots of retail businesses who are doing very nicely.

    Sales figures can hide a lot - for instance increased costs of sales...

    If not all the 30% increase in import prices is passed on to the consumer (say the market can only cope with a 20% increase in retail price) then there is a margin hit and reduced profitability.

    And if sales are up 10% but prices up 20% then the actual amount of physical goods sold is down 9% or so.
    From the data at first glance it looks as though it is not the retailers but is the manufacturers who are taking the hit.

    https://ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/bulletins/profitabilityofukcompanies/januarytomarch2019#toc
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:
    What is this concept of a hard three line whip? How does this differ from a three line whip?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,128
    Call me old fashioned, but that is ridiculous.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Scott_P said:
    What is this concept of a hard three line whip? How does this differ from a three line whip?
    No difference , a 3 line whip is a 3 line whip .
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,212
    Nice of Citeh to honour and celebrate Diwali.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565
    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    While you are obviously close to this and I am not, I am aware of several occasions where this happened
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    “On Panorama tonight, Gavin Barwell admits that Theresa May decided against a no deal Brexit in February after being convinced it would lead to a united Ireland and independent Scotland.”

    Oh. That is a must-watch.

    For a long while it was unclear why she was backtracking on her Lancaster House speech. Now we know: wee Ruthie had got hold of her ear.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Nice of Citeh to honour and celebrate Diwali.
    It look like the players have gone on one of those "paint runs" inspired by Holi.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The OBR forecasts are for the least worst version of no deal .

    They’ve not taken the worst case scenario .
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    Suspect Plaid Cymru have similar doubts.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,698
    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    The Green Party and the LibDems seem to agree on a lot of environmental policies - a lot more than with any of the other parties anyway. Also on Brexit and proportional representation.
    It makes sense for the two parties to co-operate to get as much of that agenda as possible. A large block of LibDem, Green, SNP MPs may be able to extract some of what they want from Labour (if they're the largest party). If PR can be achieved then there's no more need to co-operate.
    If you really don't want to co-operate then be prepared for a Tory/Brexit government where you get nothing.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Philip_Thompson thinks it's rubbish. So the official report by the independent body trusted with making this assessment can safely be disregarded.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,284

    Call me old fashioned, but that is ridiculous.
    They should be deducted three points.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    So a deal that could give the Greens 6+ seats does not appeal? Clearly there are policy differences but all we are talking about are arrangements in maybe 30-50 seats.

    Don't game FPTP and stay pure seems to be your approach.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,212

    Nice of Citeh to honour and celebrate Diwali.
    It look like the players have gone on one of those "paint runs" inspired by Holi.
    Yeah I meant holi.

    You’d think I’d know all the Indian sub continent stuff.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,960
    I suspect Manchester City are going to regret hiring Mr. Eagles as a fashion consultant.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,931
    At the moment if we get a 2019 general election it will be because the government loses a VONC most likely.

    At the moment given Boris' commitment to Leave on October 31st Deal or No Deal, including proroguing Parliament at the end of October for a November Queen's Speech to ensure Brexit on October 31st it is hard to see that not leading to a VONC beforehand with Grieve, Lee etc joining the opposition beforehand to back a VONC vote and likely forcing a general election or else a general election in November.

    The only way we get a 2020 general election is likely if the Withdrawal Agreement has passed by October 31st with enough Labour MPs voting for it to outweigh the ERG and thus we then enter the transition period. However hard to see that happening or Boris even putting forward the Withdrawal Agreement to the Commons again at the moment given his opposition to the backstop as stands and his desire to replace it with a technical solution
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:
    Anyone going to the golf in Portrush who is staying in Portstewart (much nicer), Roughans is much better ice cream than the much better known Morelli's. Thank me later.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,832

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    The Green Party and the LibDems seem to agree on a lot of environmental policies - a lot more than with any of the other parties anyway. Also on Brexit and proportional representation.
    It makes sense for the two parties to co-operate to get as much of that agenda as possible. A large block of LibDem, Green, SNP MPs may be able to extract some of what they want from Labour (if they're the largest party). If PR can be achieved then there's no more need to co-operate.
    If you really don't want to co-operate then be prepared for a Tory/Brexit government where you get nothing.
    If the Greens want to remain unsullied by alliances and compromise, then they will have to remain content with marginalisation.

    Working with the LDs gives them a shot at PR, which would entrench them forever. Surely worth a mass?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,128

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    So a deal that could give the Greens 6+ seats does not appeal? Clearly there are policy differences but all we are talking about are arrangements in maybe 30-50 seats.

    Don't game FPTP and stay pure seems to be your approach.
    Greens need to put any past infringements behind them. A deal worked for Caroline Lucas. This could be done in a number of seats as Mike says. Even a 2nd seat would be a massive boost as easier to get stuff done in Parliament.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    I suspect Manchester City are going to regret hiring Mr. Eagles as a fashion consultant.

    Its nailed on he has a pair of shoes that will go with that outfit...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,128

    @Philip_Thompson thinks it's rubbish. So the official report by the independent body trusted with making this assessment can safely be disregarded.
    If I have understood it, the numbers are based on the IMF's view of No Deal and not Treasury civil servants (who as we know are traitors and non-believers etc etc).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,128
    If house prices really do drop 8% next year and 5 year after then the Tories are finished. It is 1990s negative equity redux.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,212

    I suspect Manchester City are going to regret hiring Mr. Eagles as a fashion consultant.

    Its nailed on he has a pair of shoes that will go with that outfit...
    I do.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,180

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    So a deal that could give the Greens 6+ seats does not appeal? Clearly there are policy differences but all we are talking about are arrangements in maybe 30-50 seats.

    Don't game FPTP and stay pure seems to be your approach.
    Don't forget that a good proportion of the voting public have never forgiven the LDs for fulfilling their democratic mandate and accepting power where they had a chance to change things. Nor did they understand that as junior partner in a coalition, there were policy goals they wouldn't be able to achieve and some they would have to give up.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Unless Scotland (or NI or Wales??) go for UDI, that seems unlikely. That is, of course, unless Brown expects Boris to be PM for a considerable amount of time.
    Why is Scottish independence contingent upon PM Johnson being in office for a considerable amount of time?

    In what way is the Union safer under PM Corbyn, PM Farage, PM McDonnell or PM Other?
    Someone should offer Sturgeon the job. It would solve a lot of issues ;)
    PM Sturgeon’s Queen’s speech: the Act of Dissolution 2020.

    England gets to have William and Scotland gets King Harry, who will become the northern monarch before his southern big brother (hopefully).
    That we can do without. Lizzie maybe but we don't need the freeloaders.
    It was the Norwegian settlement, after their successful independence referendum in 1905. They took the younger of the Danish princes as their monarch. His big brother only became monarch in Copenhagen long after his wee brother had been installed on the new throne in Oslo.

    Harry strikes me as being more suited to the Scots than the über-English William.
    As every English rugby supporter will tell you Prince William is not über-English. This is him celebrating Wales beating England in the World Cup.


    Prince William is the next Prince of Wales and knows he will be King of Scotland, Canada and Australia and New Zealand too as it stands not just King of England.

    He therefore can afford to let Harry favour England, while he is more flexible in his support
    “while he is more flexible in his support”: exactly what I just said! William is über-English. ”Fexibility” of loyalty is the English to a tee.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    I suspect Manchester City are going to regret hiring Mr. Eagles as a fashion consultant.

    Its nailed on he has a pair of shoes that will go with that outfit...
    I do.
    I hope you don't where those around Manchester, will attract the scallies like a magpie is attracted to shiny things.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,666

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    The Green Party and the LibDems seem to agree on a lot of environmental policies - a lot more than with any of the other parties anyway. Also on Brexit and proportional representation.
    It makes sense for the two parties to co-operate to get as much of that agenda as possible. A large block of LibDem, Green, SNP MPs may be able to extract some of what they want from Labour (if they're the largest party). If PR can be achieved then there's no more need to co-operate.
    If you really don't want to co-operate then be prepared for a Tory/Brexit government where you get nothing.
    If the Greens want to remain unsullied by alliances and compromise, then they will have to remain content with marginalisation.

    Working with the LDs gives them a shot at PR, which would entrench them forever. Surely worth a mass?
    So conference passed a motion giving powers to the leaders to discuss potential deals with other parties in return for PR, but that is it. Because this is surrounding Brexit, the party has no conference accepted policy for alliances on that issue. GPEW policy is democratically decided at votes at our Spring and Autumn conferences, so we aren't the most... agile party...

    As for the LDs, I don't think many of our members want to do that deal. I don't doubt many of our voters do (when I canvass I notice the Venn Diagram of potential LDs or Greens is practically a circle), but our voters aren't all our members, and our members are more ideological. I voted LD at the last GE coz it was the only way of shifting the Tory, but our local party voted 66/33 to stand a candidate despite knowing we'd lose our deposit.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    @Philip_Thompson thinks it's rubbish. So the official report by the independent body trusted with making this assessment can safely be disregarded.
    Well it depends upon what assumptions went into their model to derive these outputs. Same with any and all modelling - garbage in, garbage out.

    Considering the IMF and Treasury forecasts of what would happen in the period between a Brexit vote and actual exit turned out not to be just rubbish but complete and utter codswallop, OBR forecasts based on that modelling would have been equally codswallop.

    Remember by now we were supposed to have had 500k of job losses and a recession, when instead we have the highest employment ever recorded in our entire history and wages outstripping inflation. In every single year since the referendum the OBR forecasts have been wrong and the deficit has come in below OBR forecasts despite the government then increasing spending on pet projects more than forecast.

    Its almost as if economic modelling is based on assumptions that can be wrong and not an actual hard science that is perfectly accurate at all times.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    So a deal that could give the Greens 6+ seats does not appeal? Clearly there are policy differences but all we are talking about are arrangements in maybe 30-50 seats.

    Don't game FPTP and stay pure seems to be your approach.
    Bought and sold for Lib Dem gold? No thanks.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,810
    FPT:
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    » show previous quotes
    As would I - but lets see the bigger picture. The number of chronic alcoholics in Scotland must surely outnumber the number of hard drug users by a factor of 50 or more.

    you mentally challenged
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,666

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    So a deal that could give the Greens 6+ seats does not appeal? Clearly there are policy differences but all we are talking about are arrangements in maybe 30-50 seats.

    Don't game FPTP and stay pure seems to be your approach.
    I agree with you; the rest of the membership not so much. I think it is because we have lots of anti austerity ex Lab and ex LD voters who just do not trust the LD party on anything, either because of past relationships with the LD party turning sour or because they do not trust the word of LDHQ.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    If house prices really do drop 8% next year and 5 year after then the Tories are finished. It is 1990s negative equity redux.

    Didn't stop them winning in 1992.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    @Philip_Thompson thinks it's rubbish. So the official report by the independent body trusted with making this assessment can safely be disregarded.
    Well it depends upon what assumptions went into their model to derive these outputs. Same with any and all modelling - garbage in, garbage out.

    Considering the IMF and Treasury forecasts of what would happen in the period between a Brexit vote and actual exit turned out not to be just rubbish but complete and utter codswallop, OBR forecasts based on that modelling would have been equally codswallop.

    Remember by now we were supposed to have had 500k of job losses and a recession, when instead we have the highest employment ever recorded in our entire history and wages outstripping inflation. In every single year since the referendum the OBR forecasts have been wrong and the deficit has come in below OBR forecasts despite the government then increasing spending on pet projects more than forecast.

    Its almost as if economic modelling is based on assumptions that can be wrong and not an actual hard science that is perfectly accurate at all times.
    That's ok then. I'll blindly trust the hopes of a crazed zealot over the impartial body whose responsibility it is to draw up the forecasts.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,043
    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,134
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    For all the bollox spouted about 'austerity' and claims that imported goods are 30% more expensive retail sales set another new record high:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/bulletins/retailsales/june2019

    With retail sales having increased by 10% since the Referendum we should be grateful that there's also been a big increase in exports otherwise the trade deficit would be at very high levels.

    And while internet retailing is showing the biggest gains store retailing, with the exception of department stores, is also doing well.

    Despite the doom and gloom about high streets and high profile retail redundancies there are clearly lots of retail businesses who are doing very nicely.

    Sales figures can hide a lot - for instance increased costs of sales...

    If not all the 30% increase in import prices is passed on to the consumer (say the market can only cope with a 20% increase in retail price) then there is a margin hit and reduced profitability.

    And if sales are up 10% but prices up 20% then the actual amount of physical goods sold is down 9% or so.
    From the data at first glance it looks as though it is not the retailers but is the manufacturers who are taking the hit.

    https://ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/bulletins/profitabilityofukcompanies/januarytomarch2019#toc
    This would be born out by my current perception of vastly increased demand for production optimisation solutions.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited July 2019
    Hell's bells
    No Deal will = Recession

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889

    The OBR report makes for really grim reading
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    Laying a 2019 GE for small-medium stakes makes sense - the opportunities an GE betting wise would offer should be able to cover any loss.

    Heh, I like that. "I'm so good at punting General Elections that I insure against the possibility of having to wait too long for one."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,180
    HYUFD said:

    At the moment if we get a 2019 general election it will be because the government loses a VONC most likely.

    At the moment given Boris' commitment to Leave on October 31st Deal or No Deal, including proroguing Parliament at the end of October for a November Queen's Speech to ensure Brexit on October 31st it is hard to see that not leading to a VONC beforehand with Grieve, Lee etc joining the opposition beforehand to back a VONC vote and likely forcing a general election or else a general election in November.

    The only way we get a 2020 general election is likely if the Withdrawal Agreement has passed by October 31st with enough Labour MPs voting for it to outweigh the ERG and thus we then enter the transition period. However hard to see that happening or Boris even putting forward the Withdrawal Agreement to the Commons again at the moment given his opposition to the backstop as stands and his desire to replace it with a technical solution

    I think if the withdrawal agreement passes the new PM will bank that and move on and I don't see anything then changing until 2022 although with a (post B&R) majority of one or two that will be challenging. That said, WA passing = leaving the EU so a triumphant we've left/soft brexit line, depending on the audience, while keep Jeremy C out in all cases might be compelling.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    For all the bollox spouted about 'austerity' and claims that imported goods are 30% more expensive retail sales set another new record high:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/bulletins/retailsales/june2019

    With retail sales having increased by 10% since the Referendum we should be grateful that there's also been a big increase in exports otherwise the trade deficit would be at very high levels.

    And while internet retailing is showing the biggest gains store retailing, with the exception of department stores, is also doing well.

    Despite the doom and gloom about high streets and high profile retail redundancies there are clearly lots of retail businesses who are doing very nicely.

    Sales figures can hide a lot - for instance increased costs of sales...

    If not all the 30% increase in import prices is passed on to the consumer (say the market can only cope with a 20% increase in retail price) then there is a margin hit and reduced profitability.

    And if sales are up 10% but prices up 20% then the actual amount of physical goods sold is down 9% or so.
    From the data at first glance it looks as though it is not the retailers but is the manufacturers who are taking the hit.

    https://ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/bulletins/profitabilityofukcompanies/januarytomarch2019#toc
    I am one of the decision makers regarding this. Whilst, the tariff increases will hit us, it will be part of the overall cost of inputs [ which of course, includes direct labour ]. The overall increase in CoS will be lower unless the importer just buys and sells.
    Personally, the depreciation of sterling will be the whammy which will hit the most. If there is a "hard Brexit" at end-October , I am working on the assumption of GBP = EUR. That will be about GBP = USD 1.12. Good for exporters, if you can get the paperwork regarding origin and standards sorted out.
    It is Agriculture exporters who will take the biggest hit.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,666
    kjh said:

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    While you are obviously close to this and I am not, I am aware of several occasions where this happened
    At a local level, yes (I am in the process of getting our local party to arrange such a deal). At a national level, less likely. Greens and LDs give lots of power to local parties, and the Green HQ at least has no power to force us to stand down a candidate. That makes it really difficult if local politics mean bad blood between LDs and Greens, because the local parties will want to stand against the local LDs they dislike. The flip side is when local parties unilaterally stand down, without consulting Green HQ, and therefore get nothing for the benefit. This has soured lots of our members on working with LDs. I think more would be willing to work with Lab, if I'm quite honest, but then Lab will refuse that.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    edited July 2019

    Personally 2022 should in my view be favourite. To get an election early there has to be a majority of MPs voting to have one. It's not particularly easy to see when it's going to be in the interests of a majority of the current batch of MPs to have an election.

    After next by-election in Wales, it is very likely government will have a working majority of 1. Not sustainable for any length of time.
    IIRC a minority government was in office 1976-79 and didn't the Tories lose their majority some years before 1997?

    But this would all change if the DUP end the C&S agreement, a possibility which has been little discussed but is not impossible.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    @Philip_Thompson thinks it's rubbish. So the official report by the independent body trusted with making this assessment can safely be disregarded.
    Well it depends upon what assumptions went into their model to derive these outputs. Same with any and all modelling - garbage in, garbage out.

    Considering the IMF and Treasury forecasts of what would happen in the period between a Brexit vote and actual exit turned out not to be just rubbish but complete and utter codswallop, OBR forecasts based on that modelling would have been equally codswallop.

    Remember by now we were supposed to have had 500k of job losses and a recession, when instead we have the highest employment ever recorded in our entire history and wages outstripping inflation. In every single year since the referendum the OBR forecasts have been wrong and the deficit has come in below OBR forecasts despite the government then increasing spending on pet projects more than forecast.

    Its almost as if economic modelling is based on assumptions that can be wrong and not an actual hard science that is perfectly accurate at all times.
    That's ok then. I'll blindly trust the hopes of a crazed zealot over the impartial body whose responsibility it is to draw up the forecasts.
    That's fine, you put your faith in those experts saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.

    The last few years have demonstrated in a very real way how the British public can be right and the so-called experts can be wrong.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    malcolmg said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Unless Scotland (or NI or Wales??) go for UDI, that seems unlikely. That is, of course, unless Brown expects Boris to be PM for a considerable amount of time.
    Why is Scottish independence contingent upon PM Johnson being in office for a considerable amount of time?

    In what way is the Union safer under PM Corbyn, PM Farage, PM McDonnell or PM Other?
    Someone should offer Sturgeon the job. It would solve a lot of issues ;)
    PM Sturgeon’s Queen’s speech: the Act of Dissolution 2020.

    England gets to have William and Scotland gets King Harry, who will become the northern monarch before his southern big brother (hopefully).
    That we can do without. Lizzie maybe but we don't need the freeloaders.
    It was the Norwegian settlement, after their successful independence referendum in 1905. They took the younger of the Danish princes as their monarch. His big brother only became monarch in Copenhagen long after his wee brother had been installed on the new throne in Oslo.

    Harry strikes me as being more suited to the Scots than the über-English William.
    Peter Phillips played for the Scotland Schools rugby team.
    Cheers Alan. Didn’t know that. Who’s Peter Phillips?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    tlg86 said:

    If house prices really do drop 8% next year and 5 year after then the Tories are finished. It is 1990s negative equity redux.

    Didn't stop them winning in 1992.
    And to add to this, you need to consider regional variations. If a national 8% fall in house prices is driven primarily by falls in London, I don't see how that damages the Tories all that much.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    HYUFD said:

    At the moment if we get a 2019 general election it will be because the government loses a VONC most likely.

    At the moment given Boris' commitment to Leave on October 31st Deal or No Deal, including proroguing Parliament at the end of October for a November Queen's Speech to ensure Brexit on October 31st it is hard to see that not leading to a VONC beforehand with Grieve, Lee etc joining the opposition beforehand to back a VONC vote and likely forcing a general election or else a general election in November.

    The only way we get a 2020 general election is likely if the Withdrawal Agreement has passed by October 31st with enough Labour MPs voting for it to outweigh the ERG and thus we then enter the transition period. However hard to see that happening or Boris even putting forward the Withdrawal Agreement to the Commons again at the moment given his opposition to the backstop as stands and his desire to replace it with a technical solution

    Just picking myself up off the floor. I think it's the first time I've agreed with you on anything.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    Already done. Its based on assumptions that have been demonstrated to be patently wrong once already but nevermind, sure it might be right next time?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,888
    edited July 2019
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    If house prices really do drop 8% next year and 5 year after then the Tories are finished. It is 1990s negative equity redux.

    Didn't stop them winning in 1992.
    And to add to this, you need to consider regional variations. If a national 8% fall in house prices is driven primarily by falls in London, I don't see how that damages the Tories all that much.
    Is this one of those cases where the median house price could remain nominally flat but the "average" drops 8% as superheated London falls away ?
    I think divergence to that scale would be... unlikely but could be something like that. (-1% change outwith London -2% mean /-4% London for instance)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    Jacob Rees-Mogg says the money will come rolling in.

    Philip Hammond's negative view of no-deal Brexit is pure silliness: it could boost our economy by £80bn
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/16/philip-hammonds-negative-view-no-deal-brexit-pure-silliness/
  • eekeek Posts: 24,924

    Personally 2022 should in my view be favourite. To get an election early there has to be a majority of MPs voting to have one. It's not particularly easy to see when it's going to be in the interests of a majority of the current batch of MPs to have an election.

    After next by-election in Wales, it is very likely government will have a working majority of 1. Not sustainable for any length of time.
    IIRC a minority government was in office 1976-79 and didn't the Tories lose their majority some years before 1997?
    We are already deep into 1976-9 terrority as the Tories already don't have a majority. It only exists with support of the DUP which is why the NI bill today is so important. With same sex marriage and abortion attached to the bill Sinn Fein have zero incentive returning to Stormont until those items are passed.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    JackW said:



    The latest YouGov poll for The Times shows we are still very much in four-way split territory.

    As ever, look at the trend not the snapshot: The Tories are back up to 25 per cent, the highest since mid-May, while the Brexit Party are down to 19 per cent, the lowest since mid-May, leaving the Lib Dems and Labour to battle it out for second, a fight which the latter is currently winning. The Greens are back down to 8 per cent - which is where they were in, you guessed it, mid-May.

    It suggests that some of the dramatic changes seen since the European elections at the end of May, particularly on the right, may have been reversed. Although the chart above shows how volatile things can be.

    This is all MoE territory. The big four, think about that for a start looking back just six months, all hovering about 22% give or take a few points and largely seen through the BREXIT prism.

    The fluidity of our politics is a sight not seen since the early 1920's and frankly it's the most volatile I've ever known.

    On B&R by-election I was chatting with a well placed Tory yesterday evening and they've already written off the seat completely and are preparing their excuses for the inevitable bad headlines of Boris enjoying the shortest political honeymoon ever.

    All will be blamed on continuing BREXIT uncertainty that Boris hasn't had time to fix, typical mid term blues and understandable misgivings over the candidate.
    “On B&R by-election I was chatting with a well placed Tory yesterday evening and they've already written off the seat completely.”

    Hmmm... so Shadsy’s 1/6 on LD victory at B&R is money in the bank?
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    Already done. Its based on assumptions that have been demonstrated to be patently wrong once already but nevermind, sure it might be right next time?
    We haven’t left yet.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    I suspect Manchester City are going to regret hiring Mr. Eagles as a fashion consultant.

    Have you seen the htfc new kit
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    @Philip_Thompson thinks it's rubbish. So the official report by the independent body trusted with making this assessment can safely be disregarded.
    Well it depends upon what assumptions went into their model to derive these outputs. Same with any and all modelling - garbage in, garbage out.

    Considering the IMF and Treasury forecasts of what would happen in the period between a Brexit vote and actual exit turned out not to be just rubbish but complete and utter codswallop, OBR forecasts based on that modelling would have been equally codswallop.

    Remember by now we were supposed to have had 500k of job losses and a recession, when instead we have the highest employment ever recorded in our entire history and wages outstripping inflation. In every single year since the referendum the OBR forecasts have been wrong and the deficit has come in below OBR forecasts despite the government then increasing spending on pet projects more than forecast.

    Its almost as if economic modelling is based on assumptions that can be wrong and not an actual hard science that is perfectly accurate at all times.
    That's ok then. I'll blindly trust the hopes of a crazed zealot over the impartial body whose responsibility it is to draw up the forecasts.
    That's fine, you put your faith in those experts saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.

    The last few years have demonstrated in a very real way how the British public can be right and the so-called experts can be wrong.
    Have they? About what?
  • 148grss said:

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    So a deal that could give the Greens 6+ seats does not appeal? Clearly there are policy differences but all we are talking about are arrangements in maybe 30-50 seats.

    Don't game FPTP and stay pure seems to be your approach.
    I agree with you; the rest of the membership not so much. I think it is because we have lots of anti austerity ex Lab and ex LD voters who just do not trust the LD party on anything, either because of past relationships with the LD party turning sour or because they do not trust the word of LDHQ.
    The problem for the Greens is that on 8% they will struggle to win extra seats under FPTP even if the LDs stand down. For example, the Greens got 17% of the vote in Isle of Wight. If you add the LDs 4% then that still only takes you to 21%, around 3k votes behind Labour and 24k behind the Tories.

    Realistically the Greens best shot of picking up extra seats would be to take on Lab in Bristol W and Norwich S but the LDs would presumably also see these as targets. It shows that while there is a certain level of cooperation, the Greens and LDs are also competitors fishing in the same pool of voters.

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,776

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Unless Scotland (or NI or Wales??) go for UDI, that seems unlikely. That is, of course, unless Brown expects Boris to be PM for a considerable amount of time.
    Why is Scottish independence contingent upon PM Johnson being in office for a considerable amount of time?

    In what way is the Union safer under PM Corbyn, PM Farage, PM McDonnell or PM Other?
    Someone should offer Sturgeon the job. It would solve a lot of issues ;)
    PM Sturgeon’s Queen’s speech: the Act of Dissolution 2020.

    England gets to have William and Scotland gets King Harry, who will become the northern monarch before his southern big brother (hopefully).
    That we can do without. Lizzie maybe but we don't need the freeloaders.
    It was the Norwegian settlement, after their successful independence referendum in 1905. They took the younger of the Danish princes as their monarch. His big brother only became monarch in Copenhagen long after his wee brother had been installed on the new throne in Oslo.

    Harry strikes me as being more suited to the Scots than the über-English William.
    As every English rugby supporter will tell you Prince William is not über-English. This is him celebrating Wales beating England in the World Cup.


    Prince William is the next Prince of Wales and knows he will be King of Scotland, Canada and Australia and New Zealand too as it stands not just King of England.

    He therefore can afford to let Harry favour England, while he is more flexible in his support
    “while he is more flexible in his support”: exactly what I just said! William is über-English. ”Fexibility” of loyalty is the English to a tee.
    Nice bit of racial stereotyping from a nationalist here! And they claim Scottish Nationalism is not racist. Oh, hang on being racist against the English is OK, like it is for the Left to be racist against Jews.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,776
    Oh dear! This is where populism/nationalism leads. Disgraceful
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Of course we should take the OBR scenario forecasts with a pinch of salt. @Philip_Thompson is right that a lot depends on the assumptions you input and that there is a lot of uncertainty about them, especially since nothing like a no-deal Brexit has ever been tried in an advanced Western economy in peacetime.

    The only things is, if you need to apply a pinch of salt to the OBR forecasts, how many buckets of salt do you need to apply to forecasts based on airy hand-waving which assure us that it will all be fine? Do these Leavers ever even countenance the possibility that they might be wrong and the experts might be at least roughly right? And what happens if the experts are roughly right?
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    So a deal that could give the Greens 6+ seats does not appeal? Clearly there are policy differences but all we are talking about are arrangements in maybe 30-50 seats.

    Don't game FPTP and stay pure seems to be your approach.
    Bought and sold for Lib Dem gold? No thanks.
    Mere vote-swapping arrangements between seats might be workable, e.g. involving Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Norwich, Cheltenham, etc. A few people become 'paper candidates'.

    The price of PR is gaming FPTP, unfortunately. 150 years of talk haven't changed the electoral system, despite hung parliaments in years like 1974 & 2010.

    Lab won't offer it, or else it will offer it and later withdraw it; see Blair 1997-2001. Con won't even offer it; see Cameron 2010-15.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Oh dear! This is where populism/nationalism leads. Disgraceful
    It's more than disgraceful, it is absolutely vile. And dangerous.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    alex. said:

    On “negotiation” - wouldn’t surprise me if Johnson hasn’t read the WA, let alone understood it. Then rocks up in Brussels with a list of “demands” only to have it patiently pointed out to him how each and every one is satisfied by the existing agreement.

    I seem to remember that he has said quite a number of odd things that indicate that he has not actually read the WA, nor other important documents (GATT etc).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,043

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    Already done. Its based on assumptions that have been demonstrated to be patently wrong once already but nevermind, sure it might be right next time?
    The assumptions are listed on pp256-60 of the report. None of them have been 'demonstrated to be patently wrong' but I'd be interested to hear which ones you think are unrealistic.

    There are a few points I would make more broadly:

    These estimates are produced by independent forecasters not the Treasury and have no relationship to the infamous 'project fear' documents.

    The UK economy has clearly under performed since the Brexit referendum. Both GDP growth and business investment have fallen from among the strongest in the G7 to among the weakest.

    GDP is now much closer to the BOE's much weaker post Brexit vote forecast than the pre vote forecast, even if it did initially perform better than the BoE expected post Brexit, largely in my view thanks to the quick negotiation of a transition arrangement in the WA - which of course is lost in a no deal Brexit.

    Of course this is a forecast and it will be wrong with 100% certainty. But I see no reason to believe that it is a biased forecast. I think there are about equal chances of the outturn being worse than this or better - in fact I think risks are skewed to the downside because the global outlook will probably be worse than they forecast.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,234

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    The only way such figures will be believed by Leavers is if they actually experience them - and no doubt in that event there will be other factors found to blame.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,776

    Of course we should take the OBR scenario forecasts with a pinch of salt. @Philip_Thompson is right that a lot depends on the assumptions you input and that there is a lot of uncertainty about them, especially since nothing like a no-deal Brexit has ever been tried in an advanced Western economy in peacetime.

    The only things is, if you need to apply a pinch of salt to the OBR forecasts, how many buckets of salt do you need to apply to forecasts based on airy hand-waving which assure us that it will all be fine? Do these Leavers ever even countenance the possibility that they might be wrong and the experts might be at least roughly right? And what happens if the experts are roughly right?

    Indeed. the balance of probability needs to be applied to important decisions. Unless of course you are a True Believer (aka a thick gullible twat)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Nigelb said:

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    The only way such figures will be believed by Leavers is if they actually experience them - and no doubt in that event there will be other factors found to blame.
    Yes, it will be the wrong kind of no-deal Brexit, sabotaged by the civil service and other Quislings.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565
    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    148grss said:

    As a Green who has engaged with the internal conversation about potential deal with the LDs; it isn't going to happen. We don't trust them on policy, nor politics. It has happened in the past that we made agreements with them not to stand and they agreed, we stood down, and they stood anyway. Whilst Sian and Jonathan seem to be in favour, I would say 2/3rds of the membership are against.

    While you are obviously close to this and I am not, I am aware of several occasions where this happened
    At a local level, yes (I am in the process of getting our local party to arrange such a deal). At a national level, less likely. Greens and LDs give lots of power to local parties, and the Green HQ at least has no power to force us to stand down a candidate. That makes it really difficult if local politics mean bad blood between LDs and Greens, because the local parties will want to stand against the local LDs they dislike. The flip side is when local parties unilaterally stand down, without consulting Green HQ, and therefore get nothing for the benefit. This has soured lots of our members on working with LDs. I think more would be willing to work with Lab, if I'm quite honest, but then Lab will refuse that.
    Cheers for that. All makes sense.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Oh dear! This is where populism/nationalism leads. Disgraceful
    It's more than disgraceful, it is absolutely vile. And dangerous.
    Trump is stoking civil war. He is no better than the Klan.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087

    Hell's bells
    No Deal will = Recession

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889

    The OBR report makes for really grim reading

    ...for the EU too.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Of course we should take the OBR scenario forecasts with a pinch of salt. @Philip_Thompson is right that a lot depends on the assumptions you input and that there is a lot of uncertainty about them, especially since nothing like a no-deal Brexit has ever been tried in an advanced Western economy in peacetime.

    The only things is, if you need to apply a pinch of salt to the OBR forecasts, how many buckets of salt do you need to apply to forecasts based on airy hand-waving which assure us that it will all be fine? Do these Leavers ever even countenance the possibility that they might be wrong and the experts might be at least roughly right? And what happens if the experts are roughly right?

    Yes. It is possible. And if that happens it will be a shame.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,284

    Nigelb said:

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    The only way such figures will be believed by Leavers is if they actually experience them - and no doubt in that event there will be other factors found to blame.
    Yes, it will be the wrong kind of no-deal Brexit, sabotaged by the civil service and other Quislings.
    It will be 'the wrong sort of Communism' argument. There has already been evidence of that here on PB.

    Expect a lot more.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I think that's fabulous. Reminiscent of a lurid sunset.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,212

    Oh dear! This is where populism/nationalism leads. Disgraceful
    I cannot imagine why Nigel Farage likes and admire Donald Trump.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Streeter said:

    Sobering reading from the OBR (Chapter 10 on the economic impact of a no deal Brexit).

    https://obr.uk/download/fiscal-risks-report-july-2019/

    No doubt the usual economic geniuses on the Leave side will be dismissing this serious and credible forecast as "project fear". Just looking at the forecast impact on the government finances, the cost of a hard Brexit is around £30bn a year, or about £550-600mn a week. Put that on your fucking bus.

    Already done. Its based on assumptions that have been demonstrated to be patently wrong once already but nevermind, sure it might be right next time?
    We haven’t left yet.
    Prior IMF and Treasury forecasts (and the OBR report is acting as if the former is accurate) were based on after we vote to Leave and before we actually do Leave. So we can compare their accuracy to what actually happened.

    Spoiler alert: They were as accurate as Rory McIlroy on the first hole today.
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