I am saying appeasement did not work then and will not work now
If anyone has been appeasing it was the EU. The deal they offered May was very generous and respected all of her red lines, but the ERG were too stupid to accept it.
All her red lines?
So we had full control over our laws. So we left the ECJ's jurisdiction? So we left the customs union?
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Don't know if anyone cares but the £ just went below 1.20 against the $
Booking hotel for trade show in San Francisco. £400 a night for basic 3 star hotel
SF is ludicrous
I’m going out there in Jan and even with a bulk discount the cheapest hotel we can get (the Hyatt) is over $700 a night
All my friends who’ve been there recently say it is also quite horrible. The only people who can afford to live there are stupidly wealthy but boring techies - and the homeless. The streets are full of bums and crackheads and the overpriced coffee shops are full of nerds with nothing to say.
It is a horrible place. The number of homeless, and their absolute destitution, is like nothing else I have seen anywhere outside of India.
America, full stop, is a pretty horrible place right now. Horrific inequalities, homelessness, drug problems, crime. It's Dystopia Now.
The compensation are some rather wonderful people.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
I have a very very similar problem. I think both the Labour and Conservative parties have gone off the deep end. I’m tempted to vote LD but I’m not sure given the Tories came second in my seat last time.
Who should I vote for?
I live in Bootle.
Without looking at the figures, can I suggest that you look at the candidates? Both Tory and Labour parties currently have their policies very strongly influenced by the views of individual MPs. If Johnson wins, he will be constrained by what's left of the non-Kipper wing. If Corbyn wins, he'll be constrained by the majority of centre-left Labour MPs. As a Corbynista myself, I actually think Corbyn is less likely to be able to do what he wants than Johnson, because he'll also be constrained by LibDems.
And although we tend to sneer at voters who just vote a party line, most people do, and it's demoralising for the candidates. Many MPs are currently showing their mettle as individuals. Why not encourage that by supporting the most convincing candidate who can win, and telling them that's why you're doing it?
I am saying appeasement did not work then and will not work now
If anyone has been appeasing it was the EU. The deal they offered May was very generous and respected all of her red lines, but the ERG were too stupid to accept it.
All her red lines?
So we had full control over our laws. So we left the ECJ's jurisdiction? So we left the customs union?
Or are you just bullshitting?
Yes as far as was ever going to be realistic. Even under No Deal there will be examples of the above being broken in practice.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Vote LD. The more the better for the future.
I was fully intending to vote LD having said I would never vote Labour with Corbyn as leader. However if Cummings makes this a No Deal election I am wavering and will probably vote for our current Labour MP who is a decent guy and a remainer. It is a marginal and I believe the Tories are about to elect a real Brexit headbanger. No Deal probably overrides my dislike of Corbyn on this occasion.
With Greening going this morning the Tory party is in the process of losing all its moderate MPs and members. I wonder how this is going to play out once we move on to things other than Brexit. The nature of the party is changing fundamentally.
I had thought of Johnson as fairly liberal on most issues but he's going to have problems with the socially conservative UKIP hordes that are going to now dominate the party.
If Labour chose a leader like Benn or Cooper when Corbyn goes I think they should stroll the election after this one.
Is there a way of viewing this site without seeing the repetitive and very dull Twitter scraping? The value here should be in posters’ considered views and taking the temperature of people risking their own money - not excitable posting of every thought (without any value add) from every Twitter user, regardless of merit?
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
Gymiah very impressive today. He’s had his weetabix this morning. Has given Labour cover to not vote for election on timing point.
Clever.
Gyimah first up for deselection, he even refused to vote for May's Withdrawal Agreement let alone No Deal, chuck him out of the Tory Party tomorrow along with Grieve
You must be desolate that the solid Conservative Party of you and Sam Gyimah has been taken over by extremists who you voted against.
Are you going to head over to the LDs? Or maybe stay as an Independent?
I am having a dilemma about my vote at a GE. I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Vote Tory but write a letter to the party chairman and the local association chairman states by clearly that it is an anti-Corbyn vote and they can’t rely on your vote in future
Pretty desperate advice there, Mr Charles. Why would anybody want to waste his vote on the Tories? There are at least three varieties of Tory Party currently on display, and there is no knowing which one you would end up with. Probably the most shambolic, or the most unscrupulous.
Is there a way of viewing this site without seeing the repetitive and very dull Twitter scraping? The value here should be in posters’ considered views and taking the temperature of people risking their own money - not excitable posting of every thought (without any value add) from every Twitter user, regardless of merit?
A few pertinent ones could/would be very useful but we do indeed get far too much drivel from twitter nowadays
Gymiah very impressive today. He’s had his weetabix this morning. Has given Labour cover to not vote for election on timing point.
Clever.
Gyimah first up for deselection, he even refused to vote for May's Withdrawal Agreement let alone No Deal, chuck him out of the Tory Party tomorrow along with Grieve
On deselection I agree with Grieve, Sam and Bebb but the rest of the mps is an act of utter stupidity and so crass stupid, it is hard to believe
Stupidity?
So do you think it is stupidity to make Brexit an issue of confidence?
Or do you think it is stupidity to have consequences for voting against on confidence matters.
Boris is following the same precedent of Major on Maastricht. If May had made the deal a confidence matter we may have left with a deal by now. Stupidity was not doing so.
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Calm down HYUFD, it is only early morning and you are in your 'war' mood
If it does happen over two years then the country will have moved on leaving a few dissidents while everyone else gets on with their lives
This is all unravelling for Johnson-Cummings at the moment, isn't it?
Oh dear. Most of us on here thought it was only a matter of time but I didn't expect it to be quite so spectacular.
If this continues through to losing the vote and then not getting his election he's going to look not only deceitful, duplicitous, mendacious, megalomaniacal, manic but also incompetent. A Prime Minister full of vile rhetoric and bilious, volcanic, hatred who has done everything possible to lose his party in parliament.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Vote Tory but write a letter to the party chairman and the local association chairman states by clearly that it is an anti-Corbyn vote and they can’t rely on your vote in future
Says a Tory.
Vote Labour but write a letter to the CLP party chairman which states clearly that you are anti-Corbyn vote and are only voting Labour to get the Conservatives out of office.
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
I started posting this morning because when I logged on there were no comments about the most astonishing political interview in years
Johnson lying to the British people, surely not!. He lies as easily as he breathes. How any BXP party support is going to believe that Johnson will stick to his word once an election is out of the way and not do a May-lite deal is beyond me.
Is there a way of viewing this site without seeing the repetitive and very dull Twitter scraping? The value here should be in posters’ considered views and taking the temperature of people risking their own money - not excitable posting of every thought (without any value add) from every Twitter user, regardless of merit?
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
Certainly they're far more useful than the endless repetitious nonsense churned out by a few crazies.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Vote LD. The more the better for the future.
I was fully intending to vote LD having said I would never vote Labour with Corbyn as leader. However if Cummings makes this a No Deal election I am wavering and will probably vote for our current Labour MP who is a decent guy and a remainer. It is a marginal and I believe the Tories are about to elect a real Brexit headbanger. No Deal probably overrides my dislike of Corbyn on this occasion.
With Greening going this morning the Tory party is in the process of losing all its moderate MPs and members. I wonder how this is going to play out once we move on to things other than Brexit. The nature of the party is changing fundamentally.
I had thought of Johnson as fairly liberal on most issues but he's going to have problems with the socially conservative UKIP hordes that are going to now dominate the party.
If Labour chose a leader like Benn or Cooper when Corbyn goes I think they should stroll the election after this one.
Indeed. The govt have overplayed their hand with their reckless behaviour contemptuous of protocol and anyone in the party with a different viewpoint.
It has made it very easy for people who dislike Corbyn and may have switched from Lab to LD/Green (or always supported them) to vote anti Tory in Lab-Tory marginals.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Vote LD. The more the better for the future.
I was fully intending to vote LD having said I would never vote Labour with Corbyn as leader. However if Cummings makes this a No Deal election I am wavering and will probably vote for our current Labour MP who is a decent guy and a remainer. It is a marginal and I believe the Tories are about to elect a real Brexit headbanger. No Deal probably overrides my dislike of Corbyn on this occasion.
With Greening going this morning the Tory party is in the process of losing all its moderate MPs and members. I wonder how this is going to play out once we move on to things other than Brexit. The nature of the party is changing fundamentally.
I had thought of Johnson as fairly liberal on most issues but he's going to have problems with the socially conservative UKIP hordes that are going to now dominate the party.
If Labour chose a leader like Benn or Cooper when Corbyn goes I think they should stroll the election after this one.
Agreed on 90% of that, but labour won't choose a moderate either.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Nah. This is a country whose national motto was judged to be "musn't grumble". The shenanigans will take place in Westminster and we will all get on with our lives, some richer, some poorer.
But not all. Not you. You must face the fact that the party you previously supported is now promoting a policy, their flagship policy that you vehemently disagree with. Time for some thinking from you, young man.
If the Government is defeated today and then put forward a motion proposing an election, seeking a 2/3 majority under the FTPA, is it amendable? Can Parliament, for example, say yes, but only if an extension is requested first?
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
We appear to be heading towards a General Election where a united Labour party faces an utterly riven Conservative party, one where the Chancellor until a few weeks ago is threatening the leadership with legal action.
That will not go well for the Conservatives.
A Labour Party just 2% ahead of the LDs,Possibly coming third on votes, which has seen most of its MPs vote against its leader, has seen the likes of Chuka defect to the LDs or CUK and which forced Hoey, Austin and Field from the party while the Tories now have around a 20% lead.
I have been busy but all the polls coalescing around a 20% Tory lead is something I have missed. I thought it was around 10 to 12?
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Come on, it is obvious he chose an election weeks ago. Why the half hearted prorogation if not to provoke Tory rebels? Why not prorogue unnannouced in mid October thru mid November if he was refusing to budge?
Gymiah very impressive today. He’s had his weetabix this morning. Has given Labour cover to not vote for election on timing point.
Clever.
Gyimah first up for deselection, he even refused to vote for May's Withdrawal Agreement let alone No Deal, chuck him out of the Tory Party tomorrow along with Grieve
On deselection I agree with Grieve, Sam and Bebb but the rest of the mps is an act of utter stupidity and so crass stupid, it is hard to believe
Stupidity?
So do you think it is stupidity to make Brexit an issue of confidence?
Or do you think it is stupidity to have consequences for voting against on confidence matters.
Boris is following the same precedent of Major on Maastricht. If May had made the deal a confidence matter we may have left with a deal by now. Stupidity was not doing so.
It is stupidity and shows lack of thinking. Someday the party will become a one nation party again and many of those voting against are good conservative mps who voted for brexit 3 times when the ERG voted against. The hypocrisy is breathtaking
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
I started posting this morning because when I logged on there were no comments about the most astonishing political interview in years
Is there a way of viewing this site without seeing the repetitive and very dull Twitter scraping? The value here should be in posters’ considered views and taking the temperature of people risking their own money - not excitable posting of every thought (without any value add) from every Twitter user, regardless of merit?
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
Yeah I quite like it, I'm not on twitter any more, it just wasted too much time.
She always seemed way too same and nice to be a Tory MP. The Conservatives seem to be becoming a very narrow church.
It’s funny that we only see that sort of remark from resolute opponents of the Conservatives
Come on, look at who has left, is leaving or is about to be kicked out. Did you really imagine a couple of months ago that the likes of Hammond and Rory Stewart would be kicked out of the party?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Yes it's an interesting one. For many, perhaps most Tories, as @HYUFD correctly points out, the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in charge dispels any worries about voting for the Tories, whatever the hell they are doing under BoJo or anyone else.
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
Is there a way of viewing this site without seeing the repetitive and very dull Twitter scraping? The value here should be in posters’ considered views and taking the temperature of people risking their own money - not excitable posting of every thought (without any value add) from every Twitter user, regardless of merit?
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
Certainly they're far more useful than the endless repetitious nonsense churned out by a few crazies.
Greening is right that an election based on the choice between No Deal and Corbyn is a lose/lose election for a very large slice of the electorate - which obviously includes her.
Don't know if anyone cares but the £ just went below 1.20 against the $
Booking hotel for trade show in San Francisco. £400 a night for basic 3 star hotel
SF is ludicrous
I’m going out there in Jan and even with a bulk discount the cheapest hotel we can get (the Hyatt) is over $700 a night
All my friends who’ve been there recently say it is also quite horrible. The only people who can afford to live there are stupidly wealthy but boring techies - and the homeless. The streets are full of bums and crackheads and the overpriced coffee shops are full of nerds with nothing to say.
In my recent experiences, the whole of the west coast has become like that. Portland used to be a nice small city to visit, now it has huge problems with homeless drug addicts and last time i was in seattle the whole area down by the piers was overrun by aggressive whacked zombies.
Yep. Venice Beach LA was the same when I went there in April. Terrifying mad homeless people spazzing our on the streets. At ten in the morning. Hollywood and Vegas weren’t much better.
The opioid crisis is something else.
I don’t know what American can do. The decline is vivid and palpable.
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
We appear to be heading towards a General Election where a united Labour party faces an utterly riven Conservative party, one where the Chancellor until a few weeks ago is threatening the leadership with legal action. That will not go well for the Conservatives.
A Labour Party just 2% ahead of the LDs,Possibly coming third on votes, which has seen most of its MPs vote against its leader, has seen the likes of Chuka defect to the LDs or CUK and which forced Hoey, Austin and Field from the party while the Tories now have around a 20% lead.
I have been busy but all the polls coalescing around a 20% Tory lead is something I have missed. I thought it was around 10 to 12?
You have to remember to count all the UKIP and Brexit Ltd voters in as Tories. That is the only way dear old HY can get to sleep at nights.
I've just listened to the Hammond interview on Today. He gave a very clear and consistent message, which coming from the Conservative Chancellor until a couple of months ago, must carry a lot of weight with in the Conservative Party and with Conservative Followers.
One of the most interesting apsects was his clear determnation to fight the Johnson Regime from within the Conservative Party, rather than split and fight from outside.
Is there a way of viewing this site without seeing the repetitive and very dull Twitter scraping? The value here should be in posters’ considered views and taking the temperature of people risking their own money - not excitable posting of every thought (without any value add) from every Twitter user, regardless of merit?
There is a very easy way to deal with posts you don't wish to read - scroll past them. if you are unable to cope with minor irritations, this is probably not a site for you.
We appear to be heading towards a General Election where a united Labour party faces an utterly riven Conservative party, one where the Chancellor until a few weeks ago is threatening the leadership with legal action. That will not go well for the Conservatives.
A Labour Party just 2% ahead of the LDs,Possibly coming third on votes, which has seen most of its MPs vote against its leader, has seen the likes of Chuka defect to the LDs or CUK and which forced Hoey, Austin and Field from the party while the Tories now have around a 20% lead.
I have been busy but all the polls coalescing around a 20% Tory lead is something I have missed. I thought it was around 10 to 12?
You have to remember to count all the UKIP and Brexit Ltd voters in as Tories. That is the only way dear old HY can get to sleep at nights.
We appear to be heading towards a General Election where a united Labour party faces an utterly riven Conservative party, one where the Chancellor until a few weeks ago is threatening the leadership with legal action. That will not go well for the Conservatives.
A Labour Party just 2% ahead of the LDs,Possibly coming third on votes, which has seen most of its MPs vote against its leader, has seen the likes of Chuka defect to the LDs or CUK and which forced Hoey, Austin and Field from the party while the Tories now have around a 20% lead.
I have been busy but all the polls coalescing around a 20% Tory lead is something I have missed. I thought it was around 10 to 12?
You have to remember to count all the UKIP and Brexit Ltd voters in as Tories. That is the only way dear old HY can get to sleep at nights.
You are also allowed to chose the outlier poll that is strongest for your political bias.
She always seemed way too same and nice to be a Tory MP. The Conservatives seem to be becoming a very narrow church.
It’s funny that we only see that sort of remark from resolute opponents of the Conservatives
Come on, look at who has left, is leaving or is about to be kicked out. Did you really imagine a couple of months ago that the likes of Hammond and Rory Stewart would be kicked out of the party?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
It's so absurd to see Stewart portrayed as some kind of arch-Remainer, when in fact he was absurdly loyal to Theresa May in her efforts to leave with a sane deal.
Gymiah very impressive today. He’s had his weetabix this morning. Has given Labour cover to not vote for election on timing point.
Clever.
Gyimah first up for deselection, he even refused to vote for May's Withdrawal Agreement let alone No Deal, chuck him out of the Tory Party tomorrow along with Grieve
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Civil War! Picturing septuagenerians in their range rovers driving to the cities to take on the urban youth. Calm down!
We will stay in a state of paralysis where all sides are equally unhappy as there is no majority for anything Brexit related for years to come. Meanwhile Germany, France et al will gradually pick off our better companies and jobs, get a higher percentage of the better start ups, gain more influence with the rest of the world.
Johnson lying to the British people, surely not!. He lies as easily as he breathes. How any BXP party support is going to believe that Johnson will stick to his word once an election is out of the way and not do a May-lite deal is beyond me.
I really don't see why anyone is getting worked up about Johnson telling lies.
If it is as prevalent as we are led to believe he only has to lie twice on a subject and he is back in the position he started at. More like a gyroscope spinning in an uncontrolled way (if that is possible) than utterances of untruths.
I expect it is a ploy he picked up from the LibDems who were always all things to all men and women, when the thing they were was the thing the recipient wanted to hear.
I think it is a realistic scenario to believe, in a snap GE before Brexit, that: Tories would get 30 - 35%, Lab 25 - 28%, LD 18 - 20%, BXP 10 - 15% and then odds and sods to Greens, PC, SNP etc.
This looks like another hung parliament, but Tories still likely the largest party. What Tories cannot do in another hung parliament scenario, though, is govern. Labour / SNP / LD probably could govern, and indeed even those who dislike LDs because they are remainers and the Nats because, well, they're Nats, would admit that they would be a moderating force on any Corbyn government.
To me, a Lab / LD / SNP gov looks the most stable and likely popular position. Indeed, whilst many don't like Corbyn now, I think if he had to govern in coalition with LDs and made some populist demsoc reforms, reformed voting etc. he would become quite popular quite quickly. The main issues would be getting Brexit and IndyRef 2 out the way, but I think IndyRef 2 under a Labour government makes it much more likely they remain in the union, and Brexit negotiations with Lab leading, and LDs wanting to remain make a soft / no Brexit more likely (which will really annoy about a third to two-fifths of the country, but will actually unify and mollify the rest)
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Civil War! Picturing septuagenerians in their range rovers driving to the cities to take on the urban youth. Calm down!
We will stay in a state of paralysis where all sides are equally unhappy as there is no majority for anything Brexit related for years to come. Meanwhile Germany, France et al will gradually pick off our better companies and jobs, get a higher percentage of the better start ups, gain more influence with the rest of the world.
She always seemed way too same and nice to be a Tory MP. The Conservatives seem to be becoming a very narrow church.
It’s funny that we only see that sort of remark from resolute opponents of the Conservatives
Come on, look at who has left, is leaving or is about to be kicked out. Did you really imagine a couple of months ago that the likes of Hammond and Rory Stewart would be kicked out of the party?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
It's so absurd to see Stewart portrayed as some kind of arch-Remainer, when in fact he was absurdly loyal to Theresa May in her efforts to leave with a sane deal.
His plan specifically ruled out remain or 2nd referendums, yet to no dealers he is a diehard Remainer! No dealers have their own language, sadly it doesn't conform to reality, so needs translation.
Diehard remainer = Someone who votes to Brexit and specifically rules out remain
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Civil War! Picturing septuagenerians in their range rovers driving to the cities to take on the urban youth. Calm down!
We will stay in a state of paralysis where all sides are equally unhappy as there is no majority for anything Brexit related for years to come. Meanwhile Germany, France et al will gradually pick off our better companies and jobs, get a higher percentage of the better start ups, gain more influence with the rest of the world.
Surely HYUFD is a parody account?!
I have started to wonder that. I love the religious certainty of his predictions. It is like watching a comedian you don't like. Irritating but funny at the same time.
Just as Labour will return to Blairite centrism once Corbyn burns out so the Tories will return to stasis once the tedium of Brexit has passed.
Politics is febrile at the moment and, understandably for a website dedicated to the subject, it would seem there are huge and permanent shifts happening.
In reality there are a handful of MPs, who the vast majority of the public couldn't identify, who are standing down/being invited to stand down because they do not agree with the policies of the party.
It really isn't a huge event in the mindset of 99% of the population...PB'ers just fall for availability heuristics (among other biases) which lead to a little bit of giddiness.
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
I started posting this morning because when I logged on there were no comments about the most astonishing political interview in years
what interview was that
Hammond one on R4 I assume.
Kuenssberg: The former chancellor has certainly had his Shreddies this morning.
Is there ever a more useless politician than Dominic Raab
Totally silent on Hong Kong.
What do you want him to say? It's not in the interests of the new Global Britain to raise the ire of China. Shutting the fuck up is probably the only, and coincidentally the best, thing he can do about it.
@ydoethur (and others), a historical question. I’m aware that royal assent was last used by Queen Anne and refusal was last considered by George V in relation to the Government of Ireland Act. Are there any 18th or 19th century examples of threats to withhold royal assent? I seem to recall there are but my memory is not obliging me on this occasion.
It’s an interesting distinction between representative government and responsible government
I suppose you could argue (this is meant to be theoretical)
1. In calling a referendum, parliament handed over its responsibility as “representative” to the principals on this issue 2. In rejecting every option they have demonstrated they are not capable of fulfilling the role of “responsible” government - in any event this should be the role of the executive as the academic literature is clear 3. Therefore the executive needs to act responsibly 4. The executives determination (you may agree or not) that the responsible decision is to reach a conclusion: we’ve had 3 years to debate the issue, we are no closer to resolution so it is not possible to build consensus and an answer must be given
Given 2 and 3, perhaps the Executive should ask the principals if they still wish to proceed?
No because the only people who haven't done their job is the legislature.
They tried to take over the role of the Executive and completely failed to deliver
(You may not have liked May's deal, but she delivered a deal. When Parliament rejected the deal they fundamentally said that No deal was better than a bad deal. The only way out of that is to ignore the instructions of the principals)
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Yes it's an interesting one. For many, perhaps most Tories, as @HYUFD correctly points out, the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in charge dispels any worries about voting for the Tories, whatever the hell they are doing under BoJo or anyone else.
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
The big difference is Corbyn has close to zero chance of winning a majority. If Labour join a new govt it will very likely be a coalition reigned in by LD and SNP, possibly with an alternative PM to Corbyn.
The Tories have a small but realistic chance of a majority, and will be very different Tory party to before.
I think the question is, would you be happy to give UKIP a majority? If not vote Labour or an any other party.
I do agree with Nick Palmer, that the individual candidates should make a big difference in these scenarios, that is a very good point.
Yes, I'm not a bad guide to these things, and as I said recently I think the number of Labour rebels will again be <5. It's all been made much easier by the No Deal push.
Constituent: "I voted Leave! Why aren't you representing me?" Rebel MP: "I voted for the Withdrawal Agreement too. But almost none of us voted for chaos 1 without a deal, did we?"
She always seemed way too same and nice to be a Tory MP. The Conservatives seem to be becoming a very narrow church.
It’s funny that we only see that sort of remark from resolute opponents of the Conservatives
Come on, look at who has left, is leaving or is about to be kicked out. Did you really imagine a couple of months ago that the likes of Hammond and Rory Stewart would be kicked out of the party?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
It's so absurd to see Stewart portrayed as some kind of arch-Remainer, when in fact he was absurdly loyal to Theresa May in her efforts to leave with a sane deal.
His plan specifically ruled out remain or 2nd referendums, yet to no dealers he is a diehard Remainer! No dealers have their own language, sadly it doesn't conform to reality, so needs translation.
Diehard remainer = Someone who votes to Brexit and specifically rules out remain
Very weird.
May's deal was an inferior version of remain. Remain in the jurisdiction of the ECJ, remain subject to EU laws, remain in the customs union. We just lose the right to vote on the EU laws while still being subject to them.
Johnson lying to the British people, surely not!. He lies as easily as he breathes. How any BXP party support is going to believe that Johnson will stick to his word once an election is out of the way and not do a May-lite deal is beyond me.
I really don't see why anyone is getting worked up about Johnson telling lies.
If it is as prevalent as we are led to believe he only has to lie twice on a subject and he is back in the position he started at. More like a gyroscope spinning in an uncontrolled way (if that is possible) than utterances of untruths.
I expect it is a ploy he picked up from the LibDems who were always all things to all men and women, when the thing they were was the thing the recipient wanted to hear.
Sorry all politicians lie but Johnson is in the Trump leave when it comes to lying and has been right through his career.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Yes it's an interesting one. For many, perhaps most Tories, as @HYUFD correctly points out, the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in charge dispels any worries about voting for the Tories, whatever the hell they are doing under BoJo or anyone else.
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
I think if you're a moderate Tory willing to vote LD, but live in a Tory/Lab marginal, a vote for Labour shouldn't be too hard to rationalise.
Sure, Corbyn is too left wing. But, with the SNP, it is practically impossible for him to get a majority alone. If you trust LDs, they will moderate Labour to a point.
Corbynism would not have free reign and would also be dependent on the will of the HoC. Corbyn is also significantly more likely to do things people want and the country might benefit from (voting reform, soft brexit, win an indyref for the union) than Johnson, and the HoC would easily block any "marxist" stuff.
Johnson is proving right now that he will, at every turn, attempt to ignore the will of the House. That is more dangerous, IMHO.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Nah. This is a country whose national motto was judged to be "musn't grumble". The shenanigans will take place in Westminster and we will all get on with our lives, some richer, some poorer.
But not all. Not you. You must face the fact that the party you previously supported is now promoting a policy, their flagship policy that you vehemently disagree with. Time for some thinking from you, young man.
He doesn't do thinking. He is a religious zealot. A convert to an idiotic, ultimately pointless and destructive cause that he cannot stand back from and look at in a logical way. Takes all sorts I guess. Let us hope that he does not hope for civil war. A lot of Leavers do seem to be obsessed with wars. Too many war comics when children I guess.
She always seemed way too same and nice to be a Tory MP. The Conservatives seem to be becoming a very narrow church.
It’s funny that we only see that sort of remark from resolute opponents of the Conservatives
Come on, look at who has left, is leaving or is about to be kicked out. Did you really imagine a couple of months ago that the likes of Hammond and Rory Stewart would be kicked out of the party?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
It's so absurd to see Stewart portrayed as some kind of arch-Remainer, when in fact he was absurdly loyal to Theresa May in her efforts to leave with a sane deal.
His plan specifically ruled out remain or 2nd referendums, yet to no dealers he is a diehard Remainer! No dealers have their own language, sadly it doesn't conform to reality, so needs translation.
Diehard remainer = Someone who votes to Brexit and specifically rules out remain
Very weird.
May's deal was an inferior version of remain. Remain in the jurisdiction of the ECJ, remain subject to EU laws, remain in the customs union. We just lose the right to vote on the EU laws while still being subject to them.
I have no issue with no dealers disliking Stewart or thinking his plans are not great. I disagree with that but of course everyone should have their own opinions.
But calling him a diehard remainer or arch remainer when he voted for Brexit and rules out remain whereas plenty of no dealers voted against Brexit is both ridiculous and an abuse of language.
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Calm down HYUFD, it is only early morning and you are in your 'war' mood
If it does happen over two years then the country will have moved on leaving a few dissidents while everyone else gets on with their lives
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Yes it's an interesting one. For many, perhaps most Tories, as @HYUFD correctly points out, the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in charge dispels any worries about voting for the Tories, whatever the hell they are doing under BoJo or anyone else.
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
I think if you're a moderate Tory willing to vote LD, but live in a Tory/Lab marginal, a vote for Labour shouldn't be too hard to rationalise.
Sure, Corbyn is too left wing. But, with the SNP, it is practically impossible for him to get a majority alone. If you trust LDs, they will moderate Labour to a point....
I'm not sure that in the current febrile times one can safely make such an assumption. Indeed some of us have already taken a punt on the very long odds which have been available on a Labour outright majority...
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Who holds the seat at the moment?
The Tories.
I vote in Ben Bradshaw's seat (Lab - Exeter), which is also a Lab-Con seat. It's not a key marginal but if votes flood from the Labour Party to the LDs then the Cons would win not the LDs. Because Mr Bradshaw has been a stong critic of Corbyn and a proud Remainer, and because I would hate it if Mr Johnson were to increase the number of Con MPs, I will vote for him again.
He also gets some Kudos from me because he gives interviews on German radio seaking fluent German.
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
I started posting this morning because when I logged on there were no comments about the most astonishing political interview in years
what interview was that
Hammond one on R4 I assume.
Kuenssberg: The former chancellor has certainly had his Shreddies this morning.
Thanks TUD, I was being sarcastic, yet another pipsqueak has popped up to whine and Scott reckoned it was momentous. Both Labour and Tories are full of these useless nonentities who are supposed to be big beasts and yet they are totally useless , self seeking wan***s. Hammond is just miffed he was dumped by a clown.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Yes it's an interesting one. For many, perhaps most Tories, as @HYUFD correctly points out, the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in charge dispels any worries about voting for the Tories, whatever the hell they are doing under BoJo or anyone else.
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
I think if you're a moderate Tory willing to vote LD, but live in a Tory/Lab marginal, a vote for Labour shouldn't be too hard to rationalise.
Sure, Corbyn is too left wing. But, with the SNP, it is practically impossible for him to get a majority alone. If you trust LDs, they will moderate Labour to a point.
Corbynism would not have free reign and would also be dependent on the will of the HoC. Corbyn is also significantly more likely to do things people want and the country might benefit from (voting reform, soft brexit, win an indyref for the union) than Johnson, and the HoC would easily block any "marxist" stuff.
Johnson is proving right now that he will, at every turn, attempt to ignore the will of the House. That is more dangerous, IMHO.
Yes it's a fair point but as we have seen with the LDs and t**t**n f**s sometimes the junior partner gets rolled over, even if for entirely understandable reasons.
There are no good options, and I suppose it is a case, as it always is, of finding the least bad alternative in such situations.
I am saying appeasement did not work then and will not work now
If anyone has been appeasing it was the EU. The deal they offered May was very generous and respected all of her red lines, but the ERG were too stupid to accept it.
All her red lines?
So we had full control over our laws. So we left the ECJ's jurisdiction? So we left the customs union?
Or are you just bullshitting?
It was an exceptionally good deal for Mrs May and a pretty good one for the country. The only people who should be unhappy with it are hardline remainers. It isn't a great position from which to argue to rejoin as it gives us a lot of the sellable benefits of membership.
Is there ever a more useless politician than Dominic Raab
Totally silent on Hong Kong.
What do you want him to say? It's not in the interests of the new Global Britain to raise the ire of China. Shutting the fuck up is probably the only, and coincidentally the best, thing he can do about it.
Better to shut up rather than prove he is an ineffectual fool and as you say, what could they do to China in any event. Time to sort this out was when they were giving Hong Kong away.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Yes it's an interesting one. For many, perhaps most Tories, as @HYUFD correctly points out, the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in charge dispels any worries about voting for the Tories, whatever the hell they are doing under BoJo or anyone else.
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
I think if you're a moderate Tory willing to vote LD, but live in a Tory/Lab marginal, a vote for Labour shouldn't be too hard to rationalise.
Sure, Corbyn is too left wing. But, with the SNP, it is practically impossible for him to get a majority alone. If you trust LDs, they will moderate Labour to a point....
I'm not sure that in the current febrile times one can safely make such an assumption. Indeed some of us have already taken a punt on the very long odds which have been available on a Labour outright majority...
Well, taking a punt on those long odds may be profitable for betting, but I think politically unlikely. The SNP will clean up Scotland leaving maybe half a dozen seats left between LDs and Lab (I think Tories lose all their Scottish MPs). LDs look to be making gains in the South East, Hertfordshire and other bits of moderate suburbia. Tories prob hold around the 300 mark, but can't get that majority. Labour will be around 250. They will almost certainly need 80 - 100 non Lab MPs to support their cause. They will get moderated.
Brexit is going to be cancelled. Without an election there is no other way out. The EU will offer a two year extension which we will have to take. As per the H Benn Surrender Treaty, which instructs Boris to do this.
WIthin those two years Brexit will be euthanised.
I think this is it.
Then we head for civil war.
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
Calm down HYUFD, it is only early morning and you are in your 'war' mood
If it does happen over two years then the country will have moved on leaving a few dissidents while everyone else gets on with their lives
I’m with Cromwell.
Which side, I wonder, would Cromwell have been on? the EEC's founding document was, after all, the Treaty Of Rome. And in 1975 some of our traditional NonConformist Liberals were unhappy with campaigning FOR because of that.
Is there ever a more useless politician than Dominic Raab
Totally silent on Hong Kong.
What do you want him to say? It's not in the interests of the new Global Britain to raise the ire of China. Shutting the fuck up is probably the only, and coincidentally the best, thing he can do about it.
Better to shut up rather than prove he is an ineffectual fool and as you say, what could they do to China in any event. Time to sort this out was when they were giving Hong Kong away.
Return it as per terms of the lease, you mean Malc.
She always seemed way too same and nice to be a Tory MP. The Conservatives seem to be becoming a very narrow church.
It’s funny that we only see that sort of remark from resolute opponents of the Conservatives
Come on, look at who has left, is leaving or is about to be kicked out. Did you really imagine a couple of months ago that the likes of Hammond and Rory Stewart would be kicked out of the party?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
It's so absurd to see Stewart portrayed as some kind of arch-Remainer, when in fact he was absurdly loyal to Theresa May in her efforts to leave with a sane deal.
His plan specifically ruled out remain or 2nd referendums, yet to no dealers he is a diehard Remainer! No dealers have their own language, sadly it doesn't conform to reality, so needs translation.
Diehard remainer = Someone who votes to Brexit and specifically rules out remain
Very weird.
May's deal was an inferior version of remain. Remain in the jurisdiction of the ECJ, remain subject to EU laws, remain in the customs union. We just lose the right to vote on the EU laws while still being subject to them.
I have no issue with no dealers disliking Stewart or thinking his plans are not great. I disagree with that but of course everyone should have their own opinions.
But calling him a diehard remainer or arch remainer when he voted for Brexit and rules out remain whereas plenty of no dealers voted against Brexit is both ridiculous and an abuse of language.
He voted to delay Brexit. I don't know any no dealers who did that.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Yes it's an interesting one. For many, perhaps most Tories, as @HYUFD correctly points out, the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in charge dispels any worries about voting for the Tories, whatever the hell they are doing under BoJo or anyone else.
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
I think if you're a moderate Tory willing to vote LD, but live in a Tory/Lab marginal, a vote for Labour shouldn't be too hard to rationalise.
Sure, Corbyn is too left wing. But, with the SNP, it is practically impossible for him to get a majority alone. If you trust LDs, they will moderate Labour to a point....
I'm not sure that in the current febrile times one can safely make such an assumption. Indeed some of us have already taken a punt on the very long odds which have been available on a Labour outright majority...
Well, taking a punt on those long odds may be profitable for betting, but I think politically unlikely. The SNP will clean up Scotland leaving maybe half a dozen seats left between LDs and Lab (I think Tories lose all their Scottish MPs). LDs look to be making gains in the South East, Hertfordshire and other bits of moderate suburbia. Tories prob hold around the 300 mark, but can't get that majority. Labour will be around 250. They will almost certainly need 80 - 100 non Lab MPs to support their cause. They will get moderated.
Johnson lying to the British people, surely not!. He lies as easily as he breathes. How any BXP party support is going to believe that Johnson will stick to his word once an election is out of the way and not do a May-lite deal is beyond me.
I really don't see why anyone is getting worked up about Johnson telling lies.
If it is as prevalent as we are led to believe he only has to lie twice on a subject and he is back in the position he started at. More like a gyroscope spinning in an uncontrolled way (if that is possible) than utterances of untruths.
I expect it is a ploy he picked up from the LibDems who were always all things to all men and women, when the thing they were was the thing the recipient wanted to hear.
Sorry all politicians lie but Johnson is in the Trump leave when it comes to lying and has been right through his career.
Not a lot to disagree about there.
Labour are masters, although in some respects the exceptions are Shadow Chancellor, who is happy to put forward radical ideas and some violent suggestions. LibDems have a history of institutional dishonesty with the promotion of different agendas to different constituencies as appropriate. The Iraq War is a very honourable exception as is the clear remain in the EU strategy. Tories are equally guilty as the other two parties. While the public dislike a split party I find the willingness of Tories to vote against the party line (which Lab (except VONC in Corbyn) and LibDems seem very reluctant to do) refreshing and that maybe an expression of honesty from some segments of the party, (or stupidity if they are ERG). Don't start me on SNP, who have a totally immoral conception of a generation.
Amber Rudd has sold her soul, which is a shame, as she seems otherwise decent. I think she will lose her seat at any future GE as she will have pissed off remainers and anti-no dealers and she will never get leavers to vote for her. Come to think of it she is toast. I hope she has an alternative career planned.
She always seemed way too same and nice to be a Tory MP. The Conservatives seem to be becoming a very narrow church.
It’s funny that we only see that sort of remark from resolute opponents of the Conservatives
Come on, look at who has left, is leaving or is about to be kicked out. Did you really imagine a couple of months ago that the likes of Hammond and Rory Stewart would be kicked out of the party?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
It's so absurd to see Stewart portrayed as some kind of arch-Remainer, when in fact he was absurdly loyal to Theresa May in her efforts to leave with a sane deal.
His plan specifically ruled out remain or 2nd referendums, yet to no dealers he is a diehard Remainer! No dealers have their own language, sadly it doesn't conform to reality, so needs translation.
Diehard remainer = Someone who votes to Brexit and specifically rules out remain
Very weird.
May's deal was an inferior version of remain. Remain in the jurisdiction of the ECJ, remain subject to EU laws, remain in the customs union. We just lose the right to vote on the EU laws while still being subject to them.
I have no issue with no dealers disliking Stewart or thinking his plans are not great. I disagree with that but of course everyone should have their own opinions.
But calling him a diehard remainer or arch remainer when he voted for Brexit and rules out remain whereas plenty of no dealers voted against Brexit is both ridiculous and an abuse of language.
I live in a Labour-Tory marginal. My instinctive vote is for the LDs, but I don’t believe they can “win here”. I want to avoid a Comrade Corbyn government as much as possible, but I find myself despairing at the thought of voting Tory. What do I do?
Who holds the seat at the moment?
The Tories.
I vote in Ben Bradshaw's seat (Lab - Exeter), which is also a Lab-Con seat. It's not a key marginal but if votes flood from the Labour Party to the LDs then the Cons would win not the LDs. Because Mr Bradshaw has been a stong critic of Corbyn and a proud Remainer, and because I would hate it if Mr Johnson were to increase the number of Con MPs, I will vote for him again.
He also gets some Kudos from me because he gives interviews on German radio seaking fluent German.
I don't think Exeter is winnable for the Tories anymore, even with a big Lab to LD swing. At every election since 1997 it has moved to Labour relative to the national result.
Is there ever a more useless politician than Dominic Raab
Totally silent on Hong Kong.
What do you want him to say? It's not in the interests of the new Global Britain to raise the ire of China. Shutting the fuck up is probably the only, and coincidentally the best, thing he can do about it.
I want him to speak out about the human rights abuses in Hong Kong.
I don't believe in cowardly kowtowing to China out of fear, nor selling our principles in the desperate belief we might derive some marginal economic gain from it - we won't.
Comments
So we had full control over our laws.
So we left the ECJ's jurisdiction?
So we left the customs union?
Or are you just bullshitting?
The far right will surge, there will be an anger in this country we have not seen for decades if not centuries at the betrayal of the Leave vote by MPs, Tommy Robinson led riots in the North and Midlands, Farage could well win the next general election as a result (he already leads Corbyn as best PM).
However to avoid that Boris will rightly refuse to budge
The compensation are some rather wonderful people.
And although we tend to sneer at voters who just vote a party line, most people do, and it's demoralising for the candidates. Many MPs are currently showing their mettle as individuals. Why not encourage that by supporting the most convincing candidate who can win, and telling them that's why you're doing it?
With Greening going this morning the Tory party is in the process of losing all its moderate MPs and members. I wonder how this is going to play out once we move on to things other than Brexit. The nature of the party is changing fundamentally.
I had thought of Johnson as fairly liberal on most issues but he's going to have problems with the socially conservative UKIP hordes that are going to now dominate the party.
If Labour chose a leader like Benn or Cooper when Corbyn goes I think they should stroll the election after this one.
“I’ve decided not to stand for @Conservatives at the next election”
I don't agree. I find them really useful. It's like having your own twitter filter: a handpicked selection of politically pertinent posts that save me hours of twittersphere trawling.
Are you going to head over to the LDs? Or maybe stay as an Independent?
So do you think it is stupidity to make Brexit an issue of confidence?
Or do you think it is stupidity to have consequences for voting against on confidence matters.
Boris is following the same precedent of Major on Maastricht. If May had made the deal a confidence matter we may have left with a deal by now. Stupidity was not doing so.
If it does happen over two years then the country will have moved on leaving a few dissidents while everyone else gets on with their lives
Oh dear. Most of us on here thought it was only a matter of time but I didn't expect it to be quite so spectacular.
If this continues through to losing the vote and then not getting his election he's going to look not only deceitful, duplicitous, mendacious, megalomaniacal, manic but also incompetent. A Prime Minister full of vile rhetoric and bilious, volcanic, hatred who has done everything possible to lose his party in parliament.
Vote Labour but write a letter to the CLP party chairman which states clearly that you are anti-Corbyn vote and are only voting Labour to get the Conservatives out of office.
It has made it very easy for people who dislike Corbyn and may have switched from Lab to LD/Green (or always supported them) to vote anti Tory in Lab-Tory marginals.
But not all. Not you. You must face the fact that the party you previously supported is now promoting a policy, their flagship policy that you vehemently disagree with. Time for some thinking from you, young man.
If the Government is defeated today and then put forward a motion proposing an election, seeking a 2/3 majority under the FTPA, is it amendable? Can Parliament, for example, say yes, but only if an extension is requested first?
The Tories are becoming UKIP Mark 2, people like Richard Nabavi and David Herdson can see it, you and HYUFD can't (or perhaps don't mind)
The question for you is whether you are willing to overlook Jezza and his anti-semitism, not to say socialist agenda. If you can live with both (something @kinabalu is easily able to do for example), then vote Labour. If not, Cons.
The opioid crisis is something else.
I don’t know what American can do. The decline is vivid and palpable.
One of the most interesting apsects was his clear determnation to fight the Johnson Regime from within the Conservative Party, rather than split and fight from outside.
if you are unable to cope with minor irritations, this is probably not a site for you.
We will stay in a state of paralysis where all sides are equally unhappy as there is no majority for anything Brexit related for years to come. Meanwhile Germany, France et al will gradually pick off our better companies and jobs, get a higher percentage of the better start ups, gain more influence with the rest of the world.
If it is as prevalent as we are led to believe he only has to lie twice on a subject and he is back in the position he started at. More like a gyroscope spinning in an uncontrolled way (if that is possible) than utterances of untruths.
I expect it is a ploy he picked up from the LibDems who were always all things to all men and women, when the thing they were was the thing the recipient wanted to hear.
This looks like another hung parliament, but Tories still likely the largest party. What Tories cannot do in another hung parliament scenario, though, is govern. Labour / SNP / LD probably could govern, and indeed even those who dislike LDs because they are remainers and the Nats because, well, they're Nats, would admit that they would be a moderating force on any Corbyn government.
To me, a Lab / LD / SNP gov looks the most stable and likely popular position. Indeed, whilst many don't like Corbyn now, I think if he had to govern in coalition with LDs and made some populist demsoc reforms, reformed voting etc. he would become quite popular quite quickly. The main issues would be getting Brexit and IndyRef 2 out the way, but I think IndyRef 2 under a Labour government makes it much more likely they remain in the union, and Brexit negotiations with Lab leading, and LDs wanting to remain make a soft / no Brexit more likely (which will really annoy about a third to two-fifths of the country, but will actually unify and mollify the rest)
Diehard remainer = Someone who votes to Brexit and specifically rules out remain
Very weird.
Politics is febrile at the moment and, understandably for a website dedicated to the subject, it would seem there are huge and permanent shifts happening.
In reality there are a handful of MPs, who the vast majority of the public couldn't identify, who are standing down/being invited to stand down because they do not agree with the policies of the party.
It really isn't a huge event in the mindset of 99% of the population...PB'ers just fall for availability heuristics (among other biases) which lead to a little bit of giddiness.
All good fun though.
Kuenssberg: The former chancellor has certainly had his Shreddies this morning.
They tried to take over the role of the Executive and completely failed to deliver
(You may not have liked May's deal, but she delivered a deal. When Parliament rejected the deal they fundamentally said that No deal was better than a bad deal. The only way out of that is to ignore the instructions of the principals)
The Tories have a small but realistic chance of a majority, and will be very different Tory party to before.
I think the question is, would you be happy to give UKIP a majority? If not vote Labour or an any other party.
I do agree with Nick Palmer, that the individual candidates should make a big difference in these scenarios, that is a very good point.
Constituent: "I voted Leave! Why aren't you representing me?"
Rebel MP: "I voted for the Withdrawal Agreement too. But almost none of us voted for chaos 1 without a deal, did we?"
Sure, Corbyn is too left wing. But, with the SNP, it is practically impossible for him to get a majority alone. If you trust LDs, they will moderate Labour to a point.
Corbynism would not have free reign and would also be dependent on the will of the HoC. Corbyn is also significantly more likely to do things people want and the country might benefit from (voting reform, soft brexit, win an indyref for the union) than Johnson, and the HoC would easily block any "marxist" stuff.
Johnson is proving right now that he will, at every turn, attempt to ignore the will of the House. That is more dangerous, IMHO.
Even apparatchiks like Damian Green are publicly making just that point now.
But calling him a diehard remainer or arch remainer when he voted for Brexit and rules out remain whereas plenty of no dealers voted against Brexit is both ridiculous and an abuse of language.
Indeed some of us have already taken a punt on the very long odds which have been available on a Labour outright majority...
He also gets some Kudos from me because he gives interviews on German radio seaking fluent German.
There are no good options, and I suppose it is a case, as it always is, of finding the least bad alternative in such situations.
And in 1975 some of our traditional NonConformist Liberals were unhappy with campaigning FOR because of that.
Labour are masters, although in some respects the exceptions are Shadow Chancellor, who is happy to put forward radical ideas and some violent suggestions.
LibDems have a history of institutional dishonesty with the promotion of different agendas to different constituencies as appropriate. The Iraq War is a very honourable exception as is the clear remain in the EU strategy.
Tories are equally guilty as the other two parties. While the public dislike a split party I find the willingness of Tories to vote against the party line (which Lab (except VONC in Corbyn) and LibDems seem very reluctant to do) refreshing and that maybe an expression of honesty from some segments of the party, (or stupidity if they are ERG).
Don't start me on SNP, who have a totally immoral conception of a generation.
I don't believe in cowardly kowtowing to China out of fear, nor selling our principles in the desperate belief we might derive some marginal economic gain from it - we won't.