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  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010

    I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill

    Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?

    Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
    Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
    This blog post by Robert Craig concludes that, unlike the Cooper-Letwin bill, the Benn bill does require Queen's Consent:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.

    He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.

    Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.

    I expect he'll take it in his stride. His sense of perspective is unrivalled.
    He was at his best tonight. Sober as well.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    For my entire life politics has been predictable within certain boundaries (e.g. we all made a few quid when the Cameron majority surprise turned up before the bookies could adapt, but a Milliband Gvt would have looked similar in many ways) but all that’s gone now. Who the f### knows what happens next?

    A decent Boris majority is possible (followed by swiftly becoming super unpopular, not that it matters with a big majority); a Corbyn led Remain coalition is possible (though you’d think it might fall apart over the impending recession); and frankly some bonkers stuff like a LibDem Gvt doesn’t feel impossible.

    Who the f%## knows?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Today is the first day since 18th June 1970 that Ken Clarke hasn't been a Conservative MP.
  • I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.

    He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.

    Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.

    It's a shame he didn't retire in 2017. He knew the Conservatives had left his Europhilia behind then, the party was a Leave party and he was not. Shame it has come to this - he is the ONLY MP in the 21 I respect unconditionally. He has his principles, he opposed Article 50, he is the only one to be consistent.

    Its a shame, but its come to it. Thank you for your service Ken.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,678
    Just heard Richard Burgon say on Newsnight that he'd never trust Boris Johnson. I feel sick again. I agree with Richard Burgon.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Burgon drowning on BBC - wants a deal so they can have a referendum to vote for Remain 😂😂

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Surely Rory would have won hos seat as an Indie Tory?

    If he was standing for Pb Central, yes he would he win as an Independent.

    Unfortunately, he is standing for Penrith and the Borders. He knows he'd lose ...

    ... and that is why he has gone.
  • Scott_P said:
    This is a truly terrible loss to politics in general and to the future of Cons, if and when they recover the idea of being a broad church.
    Rory is giving up?

    I thought he was determined to walk around and convince people one by one. I'm really disappointed by that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    OllyT said:

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    Good. If we are to have realignment, let’s get on with it. Enough faffing. WE DON’T HAVE ANY TIME LEFT
    Kaboom! Boris goes down in history as splitting the broad church conservatives.

    It will not end well in the long term.
    Kaboom! Boris unites the vast majority of Leave voters behind the Tories while the diehard Remainers are split down the middle.

    If a footie team finished bottom of the league the manager and bad players would be out on their ear.

    The Cons have changed their manager now the duff big time players have sold themselves to Rochdale.

    I really don'r think that that's how the average punter is going to see the likes of Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, Justine Greening and Philip Hammond being kicked out of the Conservative Party.
    Indeed Rory was very popular with the punters, just not with the Tory selectorate.
  • Chris said:

    I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill

    Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?

    Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
    Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
    This blog post by Robert Craig concludes that, unlike the Cooper-Letwin bill, the Benn bill does require Queen's Consent:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
    Its a moot point, if the PM refuses to get royal consent and the Queen allows this, parliament will install a new PM, who will do it.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.

    He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.

    Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.

    I understand your pain, TSE, and sympathise. But until you understand how Ken “I’ve not read the Maastricht Treaty” Clarke is one of the REASONS we are where we are, then you won’t understand Britain’s politics in a basic way. And your bewildered grief will continue.

    Arrogant, lazy, casual, frivolous, complacent europhiles like Clarke believed they were simply right about the EU, and that everyone else was wrong. What’s worse, they believed that anyone who queried them was a racist or an idiot, and should be ignored by polite folk. This bred a festering resentment, which, in the end, led to Brexit.

    Clarke is too old and vain to undertake the self examination needed to realise this. You are not.
  • DavidL said:

    More rebels will need to be deselected tomorrow, I reckon.

    (By 'rebels', I of course mean loyal Conservatives with many years of service to the party and country).

    Doesn't matter how many years of service to the party and country you have if you vote against on a confidence matter does it?
    Oh, quite. Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Boris and the rest of the nutjobs should have been sacked by Theresa May. Unfortunately she didn't have the numbers or support to do so, but nor does Boris.
    And yet he is doing it anyway and rightfully so. If only May had shown that sort of bottle we might not be in this mess.
    'Bottle' means recklessness. It might just work, for one election. The party will be even more wrecked by it than it currently is, though. Not to mention the country.
  • AndyJS said:

    Today is the first day since 18th June 1970 that Ken Clarke hasn't been a Conservative MP.

    A dozen years longer than I've been alive.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,286
    That's not a good look for Boris in tomorrow's Sun
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Foxy said:

    Drutt said:

    Yeah, just like every other political development for the last seven years.

    Listen, I hate to break it to you, but when it comes to matters of sovereignty the Scottish electorate are cuckolds. They voted for Union cuckoldry in 2014 and they voted for supranational cuckoldry in 2016. I can only think of a handful of countries that have eschewed independence when it's been offered at the ballot box, and north of the border you've done it twice in thirty months.

    What makes you think that there's any possibility of Scotland voting to leave the UK outside the EU?
    No, the UK is done. It is just a matter of timing now.

    Brexit has created such a schism between England and Scotland and England that the Union is over, even if we Remain.
    Yup
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Byronic said:

    The next UK opinion polls are going to be incredibly interesting - and maybe v v important. How will the voters react?

    So hard to call.

    I think the Tories will still be comfortably ahead, but also that tactical anti-Tory voting is now going to be commonplace. We've seen several examples here of posters who were never-Corbyn who are going to vote Labour tactically, and I know several Labour people who are going to vote LibDem, in some cases in a quiet agreement with someone in another seat going the other way. The Johnson/Cummings assault has pushed the opposition parties much closer together.
    Fair point.
  • Two consolations for the Tories:

    1. There would have been 22 rebels, but luckily one of their MPs crossed the floor before he could rebel.

    2. There will now be enough space on the Tory benches for more of their MPs to lounge in the Wooster-like manner of the Moggster.
  • OllyT said:

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    Good. If we are to have realignment, let’s get on with it. Enough faffing. WE DON’T HAVE ANY TIME LEFT
    Kaboom! Boris goes down in history as splitting the broad church conservatives.

    It will not end well in the long term.
    Kaboom! Boris unites the vast majority of Leave voters behind the Tories while the diehard Remainers are split down the middle.

    If a footie team finished bottom of the league the manager and bad players would be out on their ear.

    The Cons have changed their manager now the duff big time players have sold themselves to Rochdale.

    I really don'r think that that's how the average punter is going to see the likes of Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, Justine Greening and Philip Hammond being kicked out of the Conservative Party.
    It is not even about the average punter, 1 in 3 tory voters were remainers this morning. Their vote will be up for grabs in this campaign.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    He's united the Conservative Party.

    I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
    They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    That's not a good look for Boris in tomorrow's Sun
    It is the Scottish Sun!
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Byronic said:

    The next UK opinion polls are going to be incredibly interesting - and maybe v v important. How will the voters react?

    So hard to call.

    I think the Tories will still be comfortably ahead, but also that tactical anti-Tory voting is now going to be commonplace. We've seen several examples here of posters who were never-Corbyn who are going to vote Labour tactically, and I know several Labour people who are going to vote LibDem, in some cases in a quiet agreement with someone in another seat going the other way. The Johnson/Cummings assault has pushed the opposition parties much closer together.
    I will vote LD in K&S if someone votes Labour in a Tory-Labour marginal.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 337
    Richard Burgon making a tit of himself on BBC as usual.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Scott_P said:
    This is a truly terrible loss to politics in general and to the future of Cons, if and when they recover the idea of being a broad church.
    Rory is giving up?

    I thought he was determined to walk around and convince people one by one. I'm really disappointed by that.
    The notion of Rory as the future of the Con party was starkly highlighted by the level of his support in the leadership election.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:

    BoZo loses his first vote as PM

    He won't win tomorrow.

    the only vote he may win as PM is the one removing him from office.

    Quite an achievement

    Boris wanted a place (like Churchill) in the history books.

    After tonight he will definitely be in the history books
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    Scott_P said:
    This is a truly terrible loss to politics in general and to the future of Cons, if and when they recover the idea of being a broad church.
    Yes, I think it's quite sad. He wasn't well liked by the Conservatives: a thoughtful Tory is missing the point. But he was a grace to his party and is not easily replaced.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    DougSeal said:

    Tonight I have learned on PB -

    1) Tonight’s vote was a “confidence” motion, so the whip should be withdrawn from the rebels, unlike those who voted against the WA, but that the Prime Minister doesn’t have to resign having lost it

    2) The Conservative & Unionist Party is the “anti-establishment” party.

    Wow.

    You missed the best one of all...

    3). Jacob Rees-Mogg is a Northern working-class hero

    Only from the PB Tories.

    Only on PB.

    (Filling in for Tim at these critical moments)
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    What Labour really need to do is find a way to get the election called for post October 31st, meaning the extension legislation will have to be used, and the do or die deadline passes, and with it any credibility Boris has left. Could proroguing parliament actually help here? Just need to avoid having an election vote before next week, then can't have one until afterward in October.

    Yeah, it was being whispered on Twitter earlier that Labour would demand December for the election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,586

    I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.

    He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.

    Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.

    I expect he'll take it in his stride. His sense of perspective is unrivalled.
    I know but still feel incredibly sad.
    Indeed it is, and no way for a party to reward someone of his service.

    His parting shot on a Newsnight was to muse that he’d have to consider whether he could vote for a party led by Johnson in the coming election.

  • Remember comrades, if it wasn't for us Labour Leavers, the Tories wouldn't be in this mess.

    Please form an orderly queue to buy me and BJO a pint...

    Will sound very hubristic if they win a GE with the most right wing intake in living memory. That’s a risk.
    I'm living in the moment. Zen.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Scott_P said:
    Remember during the leadership campaign when some Boris backers were hinting he'd shift back towards a moderate position after tricking the ERG nutters into giving him their vote?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,715

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    No, at the end of June YouGov had it Tories 22%, Brexit Party 22%, Labour 20%, LDs 19%.

    Today YouGov has it Tories 35%, Labour 25%, LDs 16%, Brexit Party 11%.

    A swing of 4% from Labour to the Tories, 8% from the LDs to the Tories and 12% from the Brexit Party to the Tories in just over 2 months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Scott_P said:
    If Johnson keeps losing his MPs at this rate he wont even be leader of the oppoition.
  • That's not a good look for Boris in tomorrow's Sun
    That's the Scotch edition, the rUK one may be a bit 'different'.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Scott_P said:
    Paints Remainers as the winners and Boris as a loser to be honest.
  • Byronic said:

    I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.

    He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.

    Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.

    I understand your pain, TSE, and sympathise. But until you understand how Ken “I’ve not read the Maastricht Treaty” Clarke is one of the REASONS we are where we are, then you won’t understand Britain’s politics in a basic way. And your bewildered grief will continue.

    Arrogant, lazy, casual, frivolous, complacent europhiles like Clarke believed they were simply right about the EU, and that everyone else was wrong. What’s worse, they believed that anyone who queried them was a racist or an idiot, and should be ignored by polite folk. This bred a festering resentment, which, in the end, led to Brexit.

    Clarke is too old and vain to undertake the self examination needed to realise this. You are not.
    Ken Clarke's comment was in relation to the Scott Inquiry when Mrs Thatcher said she never read every single report she received, she didn't have the time, she only read the summaries in most instances.

    I'd remind you Ken Clarke voted three times to Leave the EU.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010

    Chris said:

    I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill

    Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?

    Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
    Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
    This blog post by Robert Craig concludes that, unlike the Cooper-Letwin bill, the Benn bill does require Queen's Consent:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
    Its a moot point, if the PM refuses to get royal consent and the Queen allows this, parliament will install a new PM, who will do it.
    Isn't that what we were all agreeing was so problematical, only a few days ago?
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    edited September 2019
    Excellent, all going perfectly to plan. The Sun saying Boris has been humiliated, with his head in his hands. Just what was needed to shore up victory. Cummings is five moves ahead of us every time.

    Edit: ah just seen the English Sun version - more like I was expecting!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,286

    That's not a good look for Boris in tomorrow's Sun
    It is the Scottish Sun!
    Good point - sorry, I missed that!
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093
    Foxy said:

    Drutt said:

    Yeah, just like every other political development for the last seven years.

    Listen, I hate to break it to you, but when it comes to matters of sovereignty the Scottish electorate are cuckolds. They voted for Union cuckoldry in 2014 and they voted for supranational cuckoldry in 2016. I can only think of a handful of countries that have eschewed independence when it's been offered at the ballot box, and north of the border you've done it twice in thirty months.

    What makes you think that there's any possibility of Scotland voting to leave the UK outside the EU?
    No, the UK is done. It is just a matter of timing now.

    Brexit has created such a schism between England and Scotland and England that the Union is over, even if we Remain.
    I'll donate £100 to a charity of your choice on the day Scotland leaves the UK, if you send a pound a month to a charity of my choice for every month Scotland is in the UK. Deal?
  • eek said:

    Is it time to open the book on the next Tory leader?

    Nigel Farage or Steve Baker?
    Too pro EU and lily livered.
  • https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1169007624521736192

    As SeanT might once have said, "fuck it, let's have a civil war" :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2019
    Chris said:

    I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill

    Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?

    Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
    Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
    This blog post by Robert Craig concludes that, unlike the Cooper-Letwin bill, the Benn bill does require Queen's Consent:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
    Does it matter? No one seems that concerned by rules or conventions anymore, unless they can weaponise them.
    HYUFD said:

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    No, at the end of June YouGov had it Tories 22%, Brexit Party 22%, Labour 20%, LDs 19%.

    Today YouGov has it Tories 35%, Labour 25%, LDs 16%, Brexit Party 11%.

    A swing of 4% from Labour to the Tories, 8% from the LDs to the Tories and 12% from the Brexit Party to the Tories in just over 2 months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
    And in March they had a 41:31 lead over Labour, what of it?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    HYUFD said:

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    No, at the end of June YouGov had it Tories 22%, Brexit Party 22%, Labour 20%, LDs 19%.

    Today YouGov has it Tories 35%, Labour 25%, LDs 16%, Brexit Party 11%.

    A swing of 4% from Labour to the Tories, 8% from the LDs to the Tories and 12% from the Brexit Party to the Tories in just over 2 months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
    That was before anyone saw his abject performance today.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited September 2019

    More rebels will need to be deselected tomorrow, I reckon.

    (By 'rebels', I of course mean loyal Conservatives with many years of service to the party and country).

    Doesn't matter how many years of service to the party and country you have if you vote against on a confidence matter does it?
    Oh, quite. Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Boris and the rest of the nutjobs should have been sacked by Theresa May. Unfortunately she didn't have the numbers or support to do so, but nor does Boris.
    Someone criticised me earlier for being too harsh on the FTPA but isn't this exactly one of the places where its presence got in the way?

    If May had made voting for her deal a matter of confidence (something not possible under the FTPA) she'd either have got it through* or would have fought a GE on it. There was a point at which voters had a degree of sympathy for her efforts to leave with a deal. I suspect in practice she'd have been eviscerated by virtue of her deal being torn apart by all sides - "too Tory" say Labour, "not a real Brexit" says Farage now possibly with some senior ex-Tories in tow, "we don't even want to Brexit!" say the Remain Alliance - but it would have been an extra tool in her arsenal for making a hung parliament functional, and not one that seems inherently undemocratic.

    * unlikely it would have got through bearing in mind that support from other parties was required, but perhaps the dynamics of the situation might have changed by virtue of May taking it so seriously. There were people who thought the deal was basically a good outcome, knew that voting for it would burn some bridges of their own, and realised that since there was no chance of the thing passing that it would be a pointless sacrifice. Potentially a few extra votes might have been in play if it did seem to have a chance.
  • So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    It is barely believable, but a Cons PM has removed the whip from Ken Clarke.

    Good grief. You would think such a day would tremble to begin . . .
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    That’s good. I like Rory. Ken Clarke should probably have retired years ago. Soames is a bloated twit.
  • HYUFD said:

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    No, at the end of June YouGov had it Tories 22%, Brexit Party 22%, Labour 20%, LDs 19%.

    Today YouGov has it Tories 35%, Labour 25%, LDs 16%, Brexit Party 11%.

    A swing of 4% from Labour to the Tories, 8% from the LDs to the Tories and 12% from the Brexit Party to the Tories in just over 2 months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Yep - of course, that proves it :-D

  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    No, at the end of June YouGov had it Tories 22%, Brexit Party 22%, Labour 20%, LDs 19%.

    Today YouGov has it Tories 35%, Labour 25%, LDs 16%, Brexit Party 11%.

    A swing of 4% from Labour to the Tories, 8% from the LDs to the Tories and 12% from the Brexit Party to the Tories in just over 2 months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
    While we’re channelling PB lefties favourite Scouse ex Pat

    “POLLING vs PB ANECDOTE”

    Except in his day, polling was the good thing
  • Surely Rory would have won hos seat as an Indie Tory?

    If he was standing for Pb Central, yes he would he win as an Independent.

    Unfortunately, he is standing for Penrith and the Borders. He knows he'd lose ...

    ... and that is why he has gone.
    Not sure he wouldn't win as an Indy in P&B. Very independent bunch up there and they do tend to vote for the person rather than the Party.
  • So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    Make way for Corbyn to become PM to deliver an extension.
  • kle4 said:

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    He's united the Conservative Party.

    I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
    They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
    That is my point.

    The party was not united before the vote. It is now.

    It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,777

    DavidL said:

    More rebels will need to be deselected tomorrow, I reckon.

    (By 'rebels', I of course mean loyal Conservatives with many years of service to the party and country).

    Doesn't matter how many years of service to the party and country you have if you vote against on a confidence matter does it?
    Oh, quite. Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Boris and the rest of the nutjobs should have been sacked by Theresa May. Unfortunately she didn't have the numbers or support to do so, but nor does Boris.
    And yet he is doing it anyway and rightfully so. If only May had shown that sort of bottle we might not be in this mess.
    'Bottle' means recklessness. It might just work, for one election. The party will be even more wrecked by it than it currently is, though. Not to mention the country.
    Everyone inside a political party has the right to argue their point of view but they should also respect the majority view when it has been reached, especially on a matter of confidence. If you don’t you give up your career in that party. The alternative is the chaos of the last 2 years. It does not provide stable or reliable government.
  • Chris said:

    Chris said:

    I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill

    Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?

    Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
    Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
    This blog post by Robert Craig concludes that, unlike the Cooper-Letwin bill, the Benn bill does require Queen's Consent:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
    Its a moot point, if the PM refuses to get royal consent and the Queen allows this, parliament will install a new PM, who will do it.
    Isn't that what we were all agreeing was so problematical, only a few days ago?
    The govt had a majority then. If the Tory rebels even abstain it is enough. Ken Clarke said he could vote for Corbyn as a last resort, Id imagine he has a lot of sway over 21 votes now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    That's not a good look for Boris in tomorrow's Sun
    Scottish Sun.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    TGOHF said:
    Is there anything worse than being expelled..from the whatsapp group?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    Make way for Corbyn to become PM to deliver an extension.
    Does Jez command a majority in the house? Would be tough.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    So where’s this Scottish poll?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,286

    So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    He will call a no-confidence vote in himself... which he will also probably lose.
  • Cons have thrown out one of Thatcher's longest serving ministers.

    Quite incredible.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited September 2019

    So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?


    Tell the EU and the voters he will never agree to an extension. Letter or not.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The Sun supports the winners.

    That's the SNP in Scotland, and the Tories in England and Wales.

    Perfectly consistent front pages.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    Guarantee that the election would be on 14th October.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is a reasonable point

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1169013835170230273

    Compared to May, Jezza looked like a crazed Zealot.

    Compared to BoZo and Darth Cummings, he looks like magic Grandpa again.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    Presumably, resign. They have "gamed" this over, thousands of time.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010
    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill

    Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?

    Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
    Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
    This blog post by Robert Craig concludes that, unlike the Cooper-Letwin bill, the Benn bill does require Queen's Consent:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
    Does it matter? No one seems that concerned by rules or conventions anymore, unless they can weaponise them.
    It matters in that looks like a legal avenue by which the bill can be blocked, if Johnson wishes to do so.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    kle4 said:

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    He's united the Conservative Party.

    I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
    They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
    That is my point.

    The party was not united before the vote. It is now.

    It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
    The thing is extremists play that game again and again, until the only person pure enough for their cult is themselves, and they are at war against the rest of the world.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,286
    Pulpstar said:

    That's not a good look for Boris in tomorrow's Sun
    Scottish Sun.
    Yeah as several others have pointed out. My bad.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The Sun supports the winners.

    That's the SNP in Scotland, and the Tories in England and Wales.

    Perfectly consistent front pages.

    Did that look like a win for Boris to you?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    edited September 2019
    So looks as if Corbyn isn't pushing it too far - wisely in my view.

    As soon as the Bill goes through, he'll agree to GE.

    GE on 15th Oct - Boris can still campaign on basis he won't extend before 31st Oct - and if he gets a majority he can repeal the Bill.

    Could in theory be blocked by Lords but in practice won't be - in any case that won't be an issue as far as the GE campaign goes - he'll just say he'll repeal it - and what the Lords may / may not do is too much of an anorak issue to get any traction with the public.
  • Xtrain said:

    Richard Burgon making a tit of himself on BBC as usual.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.
  • viewcode said:

    It is barely believable, but a Cons PM has removed the whip from Ken Clarke.

    Good grief. You would think such a day would tremble to begin . . .
    It is difficult to take in. He often says that he has stayed the same but his party has changed, but blimey, no longer a Tory?
  • Rory to lead a GONU (or whatever we want to call it)?

    Pile in, punters

    Night all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Drutt said:

    Foxy said:

    Drutt said:

    Yeah, just like every other political development for the last seven years.

    Listen, I hate to break it to you, but when it comes to matters of sovereignty the Scottish electorate are cuckolds. They voted for Union cuckoldry in 2014 and they voted for supranational cuckoldry in 2016. I can only think of a handful of countries that have eschewed independence when it's been offered at the ballot box, and north of the border you've done it twice in thirty months.

    What makes you think that there's any possibility of Scotland voting to leave the UK outside the EU?
    No, the UK is done. It is just a matter of timing now.

    Brexit has created such a schism between England and Scotland and England that the Union is over, even if we Remain.
    I'll donate £100 to a charity of your choice on the day Scotland leaves the UK, if you send a pound a month to a charity of my choice for every month Scotland is in the UK. Deal?
    Nah, not interested.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,586

    kle4 said:

    ‪Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement‬

    He's united the Conservative Party.

    I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
    They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
    That is my point.

    The party was not united before the vote. It is now.

    It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
    It is no longer the Conservative party.
    They might as well merge with Farage’s mob, if he’d have them.
  • So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    If he really is Trump then sack Cummings/Bannon.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    The Sun supports the winners.

    That's the SNP in Scotland, and the Tories in England and Wales.

    Perfectly consistent front pages.

    Did that look like a win for Boris to you?
    ~7 points ahead in the polls of Labour last time I checked.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    He will call a no-confidence vote in himself... which he will also probably lose.
    Now that will be funny.

    Momentarily at least. Part of the problem for a long time has been a government (or leaders) which does not have the confidence of the House(party) but the House refuses so far to actually officially say so, despite defeating it all the time.
    AndyJS said:

    So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    Guarantee that the election would be on 14th October.
    Aren't they now going for 15th October?

    Which is a pisser, I'm busy then.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Scott_P said:

    This is a reasonable point

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1169013835170230273

    Compared to May, Jezza looked like a crazed Zealot.

    Compared to BoZo and Darth Cummings, he looks like magic Grandpa again.

    Howd you bet Boris’ Tories vs Jezza’s Labour vote percentage at the next GE?
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    Byronic said:
    Shortly after this the whole of the shop spontaneously started to sing Ode to Joy and there we cries of “Juncker, please save us”.
  • So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?

    If he really is Trump then sack Cummings/Bannon.
    I was just thinking if Boris is looking at gaming the system in so many ways, then if Trump loses his 2020 election it will be very difficult to get him to actually leave!
This discussion has been closed.