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  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Byronic said:

    The unanswered question by all those who are going to ensure on Monday that Boris doesn't get his General Election remains what if he tells the HoC to feck itself and even with the Surrender Bill he isn't going to seek an extension. On 14th October they would have to move for a VONC and he then gets a fortnight to form his government again and then another VONC and is the HoC really going to put Corbyn in?

    If Boris does not request an extension he will be breaking the new law. I know he’s got cojones but I can’t see him seeking arrest. He therefore has to resign. Which means Corbyn PM, or a different caretaker.
    Out of interest, if there was no sanction laid down in the new law, on what grounds would he be arrested?

    Genuine question. It occurs to me that it's not actually been made a crime for Johnson to disobey Parliament's instruction as far as I know. Therefore presumably a complete ignoral of same would have to be JR'ed?
    Contempt of Parliament / Contempt of Court was the consensus here the other day.
    The power of arrest is heavily circumscribed.No-one has a general power of arrest (including police officers). It has to be for lawful reasons. If government or any public body is allegedly in breach of its own rules the remedy is civil action through the courts and both sides can argue their case. There are hundreds of such cases every year. I predict this won't be one of them.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited September 2019

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
  • TGOHF said:
    Er...I think we are already in political disarray, or did I miss something? Maybe this is a Brexiteers idea of perfect discipline and order?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    edited September 2019
    Bizarrely prorogation may now work in Boris's favour as it looks as if it's blocking a GE in the period of his maximum embarrassment (if he extends) - ie early to mid Nov.

    A good option for opposition might therefore be to allow GE to be called on Monday for late Oct (post 19 Oct).

    But Boris would presumably then campaign on basis that he would immediately reverse the extension if he wins the GE.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:


    Scott_P said:
    I think Cummings is trying to play a kind of Jedi mind trick here: make the masses think they really, really want a general election even though they hitherto didn't. It might work. Remember, absolutely no one wanted a No Deal Brexit until a handful of politicians designated it the one true creed, and it spiralled from there.
    The JFC logo and cartoon reminds me of indie band t-shirts from the 90s
    Issue might be the posh remainers in Islington might not have heard of KFC - they need a Fortnam and Mason equivalent.
    I take it you have never been to Islington? It is in the top 10 across the country for fast food outlets per head of population and KFC would be above average quality.
    TGOKFC is just trolling in a way s/he suspects of being clever and wittily dry.
    His/her suspicions are incorrect.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Chris_A said:

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    But not if Parliament is immediately prorogued.....
    The 14 day period continues whether Parliament stands prorogued or not.
    But parliament cannot pass an act expressing confidence in someone when its prorogued. Hence no new PM possible
  • I think the route has to be
    The VONC approach - state parliament must Express whether it has confidence in the government given the impasse and if they vote confidence in him.....
    Resign and tell HM to summon Corbyn and watch the opposition vote him down in panic

    There doesn’t have to be a vote of confidence in the new Prime Minister as far as I’m aware.

    Jeremy can simply prorogue Parliament to prevent a VONC. :)
    Lol, hes not going to prorogue having said its undemocratic and a coup.
    And Boris calls the VONC in him which takes precedence over all other business
    By the way.. could a VONC take precedence over the Queen's speech?

    And if successful, presumably JC can put himself forward for the consequent VOC the following day if he thinks he's the man?

    These would cut out quite a lot of the delay in Alistair's scenarios.
    The EU Council meeting starts the following day so utter chaos and who is going to submit the extension request on the 19th
    If Rebel HQ could agree during the prorogation on a c100% turnout for (a) motion to take control, (b) VONC, (c) who takes over and under what mandate, (d) a VOC for that, then I can see it happening.

    It's a big ask, but if they're faced with Boris folding his arms and promising an arms race of constitutional chicanery, I suspect they'll raise their game accordingly.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Is this "code" for "Corbyn is wetting himself for the chance to fight an election"?


    How can you take No Deal off the table if a party goes into an October election saying it would still impement it in the absence of a new deal with the EU, and the voters back that position with a majority?
    Exactly.

    The mps are unfit for purpose. Clear them all out now
    I'm coming round to the view that anybody who wants to be an MP, that should be grounds for excluding them.

    We should have members of the public, dobbed in for a two year term - and then they can never sit again. Same kinda thing as Jury Service....
    There's a great deal of merit in this idea.
    Citizen's assemblies have been used successfully in Ireland. We should do the same.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Chris_A said:

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    But not if Parliament is immediately prorogued.....
    The 14 day period continues whether Parliament stands prorogued or not.
    Possibly not. It's an obvious flaw in the FTPA. A court could sensibly say it means 14 sitting days because otherwise the provision makes no sense in the light of what the measure is trying to achieve.

  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Is this "code" for "Corbyn is wetting himself for the chance to fight an election"?


    How can you take No Deal off the table if a party goes into an October election saying it would still impement it in the absence of a new deal with the EU, and the voters back that position with a majority?
    Exactly.

    The mps are unfit for purpose. Clear them all out now
    I'm coming round to the view that anybody who wants to be an MP, that should be grounds for excluding them.

    We should have members of the public, dobbed in for a two year term - and then they can never sit again. Same kinda thing as Jury Service....
    My daughter tells me the ancient Greeks used this system. And there was some sort of mechanism to punish them for things they may have decided that weren't up to snuff.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:


    Scott_P said:
    I think Cummings is trying to play a kind of Jedi mind trick here: make the masses think they really, really want a general election even though they hitherto didn't. It might work. Remember, absolutely no one wanted a No Deal Brexit until a handful of politicians designated it the one true creed, and it spiralled from there.
    The JFC logo and cartoon reminds me of indie band t-shirts from the 90s
    Issue might be the posh remainers in Islington might not have heard of KFC - they need a Fortnam and Mason equivalent.
    I take it you have never been to Islington? It is in the top 10 across the country for fast food outlets per head of population and KFC would be above average quality.
    TGOKFC is just trolling in a way s/he suspects of being clever and wittily dry.
    His/her suspicions are incorrect.
    That usually goes without saying
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    The rebel alliance is running a risk that the EU will say 'you are a joke' and refuse to offer anything
  • Scott_P said:
    @HYUFD has assured us that Boris will refuse to give it Royal Assent remember.
    LOL

    If HM Queen gives her assent, will HYUFD accuse her of being a traitor perhaps?
  • TGOHF said:
    There was no article 50 before Lisbon. Any EU exit had to be by separate treaty, negotiated without time limits. Article 50 was designed to make it more difficult to leave - the 2-year time limit skews the process heavily in favour of the EU, as we have learned over the past 3 years. They hold all the cards.
  • I think the route has to be
    The VONC approach - state parliament must Express whether it has confidence in the government given the impasse and if they vote confidence in him.....
    Resign and tell HM to summon Corbyn and watch the opposition vote him down in panic

    There doesn’t have to be a vote of confidence in the new Prime Minister as far as I’m aware.

    Jeremy can simply prorogue Parliament to prevent a VONC. :)
    Lol, hes not going to prorogue having said its undemocratic and a coup.
    And Boris calls the VONC in him which takes precedence over all other business
    By the way.. could a VONC take precedence over the Queen's speech?

    And if successful, presumably JC can put himself forward for the consequent VOC the following day if he thinks he's the man?

    These would cut out quite a lot of the delay in Alistair's scenarios.
    The EU Council meeting starts the following day so utter chaos and who is going to submit the extension request on the 19th
    If Rebel HQ could agree during the prorogation on a c100% turnout for (a) motion to take control, (b) VONC, (c) who takes over and under what mandate, (d) a VOC for that, then I can see it happening.

    It's a big ask, but if they're faced with Boris folding his arms and promising an arms race of constitutional chicanery, I suspect they'll raise their game accordingly.
    Unless they repeal the FPTA, which is impossible in the time, a vonc gives Boris 14 days to form government
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    edited September 2019
    The Lords filibuster seems to be yet another case of Brexiters here raising their hopes over something really stupid, then having them dashed. Any chance you'll learn from it or are we just going to move straight on to the next bit of fanfiction about how Boris is going to trick EU leaders into visiting the UK then lock them in the Tower until they agree to remove the backstop, or something?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    TGOHF said:
    Checks news:
    1. Done (well, not yet spread to rest of Europe, I guess)
    2. I thought Europe (meaning EU?) was already horribly undemocratic which was why we had to get out?
    3. Meaning no other country will be as stupid? Or that the countries of Europe will vote to remove article 50 (unlikely, but it's a relatively recent addition anyway and no-one believed it was impossible to leave before article 50, did they?)
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    I think the route has to be
    The VONC approach - state parliament must Express whether it has confidence in the government given the impasse and if they vote confidence in him.....
    Resign and tell HM to summon Corbyn and watch the opposition vote him down in panic

    There doesn’t have to be a vote of confidence in the new Prime Minister as far as I’m aware.

    Jeremy can simply prorogue Parliament to prevent a VONC. :)
    Lol, hes not going to prorogue having said its undemocratic and a coup.
    And Boris calls the VONC in him which takes precedence over all other business
    By the way.. could a VONC take precedence over the Queen's speech?

    And if successful, presumably JC can put himself forward for the consequent VOC the following day if he thinks he's the man?

    These would cut out quite a lot of the delay in Alistair's scenarios.
    The EU Council meeting starts the following day so utter chaos and who is going to submit the extension request on the 19th
    If Rebel HQ could agree during the prorogation on a c100% turnout for (a) motion to take control, (b) VONC, (c) who takes over and under what mandate, (d) a VOC for that, then I can see it happening.

    It's a big ask, but if they're faced with Boris folding his arms and promising an arms race of constitutional chicanery, I suspect they'll raise their game accordingly.
    Sounds like a coup d'etat!
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    Are we talking about on Monday? My guess is that *within a business day* with Bercow effectively on-side, members may be able to keep things on the road long enough for a new VOC straight afterwards if they have their ducks in a row. I agree if they just kick him out and leave it for Tue or Wed, they've had it.
  • TGOHF said:

    But Jezza is chicken.

    So is BoZo because he is chicken of a new referendum. Constantly refused because he duped them last time and knows he can't do it a second
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited September 2019

    TGOHF said:

    But Jezza is chicken.

    So is BoZo because he is chicken of a new referendum. Constantly refused because he duped them last time and knows he can't do it a second
    +1

    A lame duck and a chicken!

    And a liar of course!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    tpfkar said:

    Funny how the country is both willing and ready to go through a no deal Brexit, but unable to get to the polling stations after the clocks go back.

    Our last winter GE was Feb 74 and had a 78.4% turnout.

    The October GE in the same year was 72.4%.

    Perhaps winters were more boring back then...

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Selebian said:

    TGOHF said:
    Checks news:
    1. Done (well, not yet spread to rest of Europe, I guess)
    2. I thought Europe (meaning EU?) was already horribly undemocratic which was why we had to get out?
    3. Meaning no other country will be as stupid? Or that the countries of Europe will vote to remove article 50 (unlikely, but it's a relatively recent addition anyway and no-one believed it was impossible to leave before article 50, did they?)
    Article 50 removal would require the unanimous agreement of all 27 (28 if we are still in), it would be effectively creating a superstate and would be legally questionable - you can't prevent a signatory to a treaty exiting that treaty unless you change the group to a unified nation. Good luck getting that through all 27 parliaments!
  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    I think we are getting to the nub of Number 10's scheming.....

  • I think the route has to be
    The VONC approach - state parliament must Express whether it has confidence in the government given the impasse and if they vote confidence in him.....
    Resign and tell HM to summon Corbyn and watch the opposition vote him down in panic

    There doesn’t have to be a vote of confidence in the new Prime Minister as far as I’m aware.

    Jeremy can simply prorogue Parliament to prevent a VONC. :)
    Lol, hes not going to prorogue having said its undemocratic and a coup.
    And Boris calls the VONC in him which takes precedence over all other business
    By the way.. could a VONC take precedence over the Queen's speech?

    And if successful, presumably JC can put himself forward for the consequent VOC the following day if he thinks he's the man?

    These would cut out quite a lot of the delay in Alistair's scenarios.
    The EU Council meeting starts the following day so utter chaos and who is going to submit the extension request on the 19th
    If Rebel HQ could agree during the prorogation on a c100% turnout for (a) motion to take control, (b) VONC, (c) who takes over and under what mandate, (d) a VOC for that, then I can see it happening.

    It's a big ask, but if they're faced with Boris folding his arms and promising an arms race of constitutional chicanery, I suspect they'll raise their game accordingly.
    Sounds like a coup d'etat!
    Sounds like the exact principle of the FTPA to me.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    I keep reading the minimum 25 days requirement after election is called. Does that also apply to the one line "Notwithstanding FTPA...." election as well ?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    Are we talking about on Monday? My guess is that *within a business day* with Bercow effectively on-side, members may be able to keep things on the road long enough for a new VOC straight afterwards if they have their ducks in a row. I agree if they just kick him out and leave it for Tue or Wed, they've had it.
    They'd need to get control of the house again, they dont have time. If VONC monday, prorogue Monday night
  • Noo said:

    Is this "code" for "Corbyn is wetting himself for the chance to fight an election"?


    How can you take No Deal off the table if a party goes into an October election saying it would still impement it in the absence of a new deal with the EU, and the voters back that position with a majority?
    Exactly.

    The mps are unfit for purpose. Clear them all out now
    I'm coming round to the view that anybody who wants to be an MP, that should be grounds for excluding them.

    We should have members of the public, dobbed in for a two year term - and then they can never sit again. Same kinda thing as Jury Service....
    There's a great deal of merit in this idea.
    Citizen's assemblies have been used successfully in Ireland. We should do the same.
    Slight flaw (and strength) is that they would be completely unaccountable for their tenure. MPs that are in marginal seats do at least try and please their constituents. Those in safe seats try to please their local associations
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
    Its Gordon's handwriting/May's treatment in Europe rewrit
  • I think Boris was silly to use the Officers but they were in a training centre, not from the streets or on official duty
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    edited September 2019
    murali_s said:

    TGOHF said:

    But Jezza is chicken.

    So is BoZo because he is chicken of a new referendum. Constantly refused because he duped them last time and knows he can't do it a second
    +1

    A lame duck and a chicken!

    And a liar of course!
    -1 for missing an easy "lyre bird" gag
    EDIT: perhaps this is what you were aiming at and I'm the one that missed it? -1 to me if so.
  • I think the route has to be
    The VONC approach - state parliament must Express whether it has confidence in the government given the impasse and if they vote confidence in him.....
    Resign and tell HM to summon Corbyn and watch the opposition vote him down in panic

    There doesn’t have to be a vote of confidence in the new Prime Minister as far as I’m aware.

    Jeremy can simply prorogue Parliament to prevent a VONC. :)
    Lol, hes not going to prorogue having said its undemocratic and a coup.
    And Boris calls the VONC in him which takes precedence over all other business
    By the way.. could a VONC take precedence over the Queen's speech?

    And if successful, presumably JC can put himself forward for the consequent VOC the following day if he thinks he's the man?

    These would cut out quite a lot of the delay in Alistair's scenarios.
    The EU Council meeting starts the following day so utter chaos and who is going to submit the extension request on the 19th
    If Rebel HQ could agree during the prorogation on a c100% turnout for (a) motion to take control, (b) VONC, (c) who takes over and under what mandate, (d) a VOC for that, then I can see it happening.

    It's a big ask, but if they're faced with Boris folding his arms and promising an arms race of constitutional chicanery, I suspect they'll raise their game accordingly.
    Unless they repeal the FPTA, which is impossible in the time, a vonc gives Boris 14 days to form government
    My reading of it is that a (ie any) government has *a maximum* of 14 days to secure a VOC in order to avoid an election.

    ie if Corbyn walks up to Bercow five mins after the VONC in Boris and says he'd like to have a pop at a VOC, I think he gets it (maybe subject to tabling the motion for the next day)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/section/2/enacted
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Byronic said:

    The unanswered question by all those who are going to ensure on Monday that Boris doesn't get his General Election remains what if he tells the HoC to feck itself and even with the Surrender Bill he isn't going to seek an extension. On 14th October they would have to move for a VONC and he then gets a fortnight to form his government again and then another VONC and is the HoC really going to put Corbyn in?

    If Boris does not request an extension he will be breaking the new law. I know he’s got cojones but I can’t see him seeking arrest. He therefore has to resign. Which means Corbyn PM, or a different caretaker.
    This is why the smart move is that Boris calls a confidence motion in himself on Monday (only needs simple majority to pass, which I think he would just squeak). Start the ball rolling on the 14 days, might get Corbs or another caretaker but the extension is then on them, not Boris. Put the impetus back on the opposition who a week or so ago couldn’t agree a suitable alternative PM candidate.
    Or most simply just resign as PM and await consequences.

    Wouldn’t the Queen refuse his resignation unless he recommended a successor and then they would legally have to ask for an extension?

    No VOC required.
    There is never a vacancy in the office of PM - if Johnson resigns and refuses to stay on as caretaker pending a successor being found HM would have to send for someone else - Corbyn presumably - who would be appointed and remain in office until brought down by a VONC. He would have full authority to write the extension letter since it will be mandated by an act of parliament.
    I don't think that's true. There are some things only the PM can do (launch the nukes, attend EUCO, etc) but otherwise govt ticks nicely on without one. You can survive not having a PM for quite some time.
    Without a PM there is no government. So no...it wouldn't.
    No. The Government survives the PM. The PM's successor appoints the new government, but the old one remains in existence until he replaces it. What do you think happens if a PM dies?
    Yes - motions of no Confidence are in the government not the PM - when Corby tried to VONC May he got nowhere.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
    Its Gordon's handwriting/May's treatment in Europe rewrit
    I don't buy it, and I don't think the electorate will, except the 33% self-harmists. Most people know Bozo's a liar and is trying to game the system.

  • And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    Yup, definitely. This is why I think the opposition needs to put up a PM and deliver Brexit (referendum-permitting).

    Realistically they can't do it until parliament returns though, and if they produce results later the game-playing now won't matter, it'll all blend into a blur of Tory chaos.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    I can picture her being all angry and bossy about this in committee. Ed will get the rough end of it tonight
  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    I’ve seen a few comments along the lines of “if parliament tell him to lick the EU’s boots he should tell them to get stuffed”. He’ll pay a price for extending, even if he’s forced into it.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    I think we are getting to the nub of Number 10's scheming.....

    If a VONC passes Monday it is checkmate
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Scott_P said:
    @HYUFD has assured us that Boris will refuse to give it Royal Assent remember.
    LOL

    If HM Queen gives her assent, will HYUFD accuse her of being a traitor perhaps?
    No doubt.
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    Are we talking about on Monday? My guess is that *within a business day* with Bercow effectively on-side, members may be able to keep things on the road long enough for a new VOC straight afterwards if they have their ducks in a row. I agree if they just kick him out and leave it for Tue or Wed, they've had it.
    They'd need to get control of the house again, they dont have time. If VONC monday, prorogue Monday night
    Yeah, I get that. The whole tabling motions/order paper for the following day thing hasn't really kept up with the pace of modern technology and news cycles :)
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    Are we talking about on Monday? My guess is that *within a business day* with Bercow effectively on-side, members may be able to keep things on the road long enough for a new VOC straight afterwards if they have their ducks in a row. I agree if they just kick him out and leave it for Tue or Wed, they've had it.
    They cannot just kick him out much as many want to. He is protected by the FTPA giving him 14 days to form a government

    It is the FTPA that is stupid but the same ones angered at Boris ignoring the law seem to be wanting it ignored here

  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    I can picture her being all angry and bossy about this in committee. Ed will get the rough end of it tonight

    Are those many double entendres deliberate?

    Take a cold shower.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    I think Boris was silly to use the Officers but they were in a training centre, not from the streets or on official duty
    Marginally better, but still looked weird.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
    If MPs want any reminder of what the voters do to those members who try and get too clever by half, they might care to look at the Winchester by-election in 1997.

    May -

    Mark Oaten majority 2

    November (after a court challenge by the losing Tory) -

    Mark Oaten majority 21,556
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    I think we are getting to the nub of Number 10's scheming.....

    If a VONC passes Monday it is checkmate
    For who?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
    Its Gordon's handwriting/May's treatment in Europe rewrit
    I don't buy it, and I don't think the electorate will, except the 33% self-harmists. Most people know Bozo's a liar and is trying to game the system.
    Most people knew Brown was a total arse and May hopeless but those events did swing some 'leave it out' support behind them even if temporarily
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    Foxy said:

    tpfkar said:

    Funny how the country is both willing and ready to go through a no deal Brexit, but unable to get to the polling stations after the clocks go back.

    Our last winter GE was Feb 74 and had a 78.4% turnout.

    The October GE in the same year was 72.4%.

    Perhaps winters were more boring back then...

    More daylight in Feb than in Dec!
  • The Lords filibuster seems to be yet another case of Brexiters here raising their hopes over something really stupid, then having them dashed. Any chance you'll learn from it or are we just going to move straight on to the next bit of fanfiction about how Boris is going to trick EU leaders into visiting the UK then lock them in the Tower until they agree to remove the backstop, or something?

    Boris is a genius, and can do no wrong. Well according to HYUFD anyway
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    I read somewhere that apparently the government VoNCing themselves won't work. I cannot remember why.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    TGOHF said:
    There was no article 50 before Lisbon. Any EU exit had to be by separate treaty, negotiated without time limits. Article 50 was designed to make it more difficult to leave - the 2-year time limit skews the process heavily in favour of the EU, as we have learned over the past 3 years. They hold all the cards.
    One of many issues from earlier which will become relevant when we have an 'Iraq' style enquiry into all this. Why no proper public debate and referendum on the Lisbon Treaty when we had been clearly warned by the defeat of the EU constitution in referendums elsewhere that it was significant?

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    No risk If he prorogued. FTPA expressly states parliament must pass an act of confidence in someone, it can't if prorogued
    I think we are getting to the nub of Number 10's scheming.....

    If a VONC passes Monday it is checkmate
    For who?
    The rebels. It guarantees an election in October. On the 29th in fact or dramatically set for Brexit day
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    I think Boris was silly to use the Officers but they were in a training centre, not from the streets or on official duty

    A cringeworthy moronic move from a cringeworthy moron of a prime minister.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469


    Just got this from Boris...something is going to have to give..
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    I can picture her being all angry and bossy about this in committee. Ed will get the rough end of it tonight
    Ed playing the Chuck Rhodes role
  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
    Its Gordon's handwriting/May's treatment in Europe rewrit
    I don't buy it, and I don't think the electorate will, except the 33% self-harmists. Most people know Bozo's a liar and is trying to game the system.
    Most people knew Brown was a total arse and May hopeless but those events did swing some 'leave it out' support behind them even if temporarily
    Well, who knows. It certainly isn't convincing me to back him and I've been a Tory for most of my adult life. I cannot imagine any circumstances where I would give Boris Johnson the benefit of the doubt. May and Brown were both awful, but at least they were fundamentally honest.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
    If MPs want any reminder of what the voters do to those members who try and get too clever by half, they might care to look at the Winchester by-election in 1997.

    May -

    Mark Oaten majority 2

    November (after a court challenge by the losing Tory) -

    Mark Oaten majority 21,556
    Who does the public think is playing games? The consensus on this board seems to be that Dom and Dommer are playing chess with parliament, poker with the constitution, chicken with the EU, and top Trumps with our future trade prospects.

  • I’ve seen a few comments along the lines of “if parliament tell him to lick the EU’s boots he should tell them to get stuffed”. He’ll pay a price for extending, even if he’s forced into it.

    I guess the flip side of all the "he'll refuse royal assent" etc fan fiction is that the enthusiasts believe there are lots of feasible options open to him, and they'll be disappointed when he doesn't take them.

    But even if that creates a chink in the armour, ultimately the question is whether Farage *chooses* to stick the knife in it.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    I can picture her being all angry and bossy about this in committee. Ed will get the rough end of it tonight

    Are those many double entendres deliberate?

    Take a cold shower.
    Cold bath. Part of a good hygiene regime is sitting in a puddle of your own filth
  • FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.

    Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?

    It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/section/2/enacted

    As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
  • Curveball and improper suggestion that I am not seriously proposing but ...

    Given extending costs us £1 billion per month ...

    What would happen if Boris flew to say Hungary and pledged a billion of international aid for Hungary ...

    While at the same time Victor Orban said that he appreciated that Brexit has taken long enough and he will not support any further extension of Article 50?
  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
    Plenty of anger in town this morning.

    I cannot recall a time when you hear politics in the street being talked about and with such dismay and distrust

  • I’ve seen a few comments along the lines of “if parliament tell him to lick the EU’s boots he should tell them to get stuffed”. He’ll pay a price for extending, even if he’s forced into it.

    I guess the flip side of all the "he'll refuse royal assent" etc fan fiction is that the enthusiasts believe there are lots of feasible options open to him, and they'll be disappointed when he doesn't take them.

    But even if that creates a chink in the armour, ultimately the question is whether Farage *chooses* to stick the knife in it.
    (NB that quote from me above, isn't from me - another dodgy blockquote edit!)
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    I read somewhere that apparently the government VoNCing themselves won't work. I cannot remember why.
    They don’t VONC themselves - they have a vote of confidence- so all the opposition have to do is abstain and the government passes its own vote of confidence in itself. Otherwise the government would have to vote that they DIDNT have confidence in themselves- great ammunition for the opposition!
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    I think Boris was silly to use the Officers but they were in a training centre, not from the streets or on official duty

    A cringeworthy moronic move from a cringeworthy moron of a prime minister.
    If he comes back in a few weeks they will be able to get some practice by arresting him.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Curveball and improper suggestion that I am not seriously proposing but ...

    Given extending costs us £1 billion per month ...

    What would happen if Boris flew to say Hungary and pledged a billion of international aid for Hungary ...

    While at the same time Victor Orban said that he appreciated that Brexit has taken long enough and he will not support any further extension of Article 50?

    and for that £1 billion we receive a whole raft of benefits such as frictionless trade and freedom of movement.
  • timmo said:



    Just got this from Boris...something is going to have to give..

    One other benefit of no longer being a member. I don't get those sort of moronic missives.
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    I read somewhere that apparently the government VoNCing themselves won't work. I cannot remember why.
    What? *Apart* from looking like massive bell-ends? I think that ship may have sailed :)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
    Plenty of anger in town this morning.

    I cannot recall a time when you hear politics in the street being talked about and with such dismay and distrust
    You should blame Boris and Farage for rabble-rousing.
  • Noo said:


    Who does the public think is playing games? The consensus on this board seems to be that Dom and Dommer are playing chess with parliament, poker with the constitution, chicken with the EU, and top Trumps with our future trade prospects.

    I would say *most* brexit-minded people think brexit is being held up by remainers in parliament playing games, and Boris has made all the right moves to show that he's doing whatever he can to get around their roadblocks.

    However there will also be some people in the middle who blame Boris for the chaos, and others who are sick of the whole useless lot of them, and we really need some polling to find out how big these various groups are.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.

    Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?

    It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/section/2/enacted

    As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.

    Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    I read somewhere that apparently the government VoNCing themselves won't work. I cannot remember why.
    They don’t VONC themselves - they have a vote of confidence- so all the opposition have to do is abstain and the government passes its own vote of confidence in itself. Otherwise the government would have to vote that they DIDNT have confidence in themselves- great ammunition for the opposition!
    I believe, however nuts, that that's what's being proposed.. in order to get to a 50% vote for an election rather than a 66% one.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Curveball and improper suggestion that I am not seriously proposing but ...

    Given extending costs us £1 billion per month ...

    What would happen if Boris flew to say Hungary and pledged a billion of international aid for Hungary ...

    While at the same time Victor Orban said that he appreciated that Brexit has taken long enough and he will not support any further extension of Article 50?

    Then the chances of revoke would go up
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Curveball and improper suggestion that I am not seriously proposing but ...

    Given extending costs us £1 billion per month ...

    What would happen if Boris flew to say Hungary and pledged a billion of international aid for Hungary ...

    While at the same time Victor Orban said that he appreciated that Brexit has taken long enough and he will not support any further extension of Article 50?

    A certain poster would have to consider selling his property in Hungary in protest!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Genuine question. Can anyone remind me this - it's all so long ago? Why is the backstop objectionable if it is the case that those who are against it all say it is unnecessary because a solution will be found?

  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
    Plenty of anger in town this morning.

    I cannot recall a time when you hear politics in the street being talked about and with such dismay and distrust
    You should blame Boris and Farage for rabble-rousing.
    Well it is not me involved.

    It is the public and they certainly were not blaming Boris or Farage.

    Their anger was directed at those trying to frustrate the process and Corbyn was getting a real bad time of it
  • Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
    Plenty of anger in town this morning.

    I cannot recall a time when you hear politics in the street being talked about and with such dismay and distrust
    You should blame Boris and Farage for rabble-rousing.
    Indeed. It is where it all started. Boris and his silly polemics, and Farage because he was rejected by the Conservative Party for being a fascist
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Obviously anecdotal, but I never see much anger at the prospect of an election, just resignation, all 'Oh gawds, well I guess we have to put up with this'. But then its not as though anyone was genuinely angry at politicians for dragging their heels anyway, so the public reaction is pretty moot.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
    Plenty of anger in town this morning.

    I cannot recall a time when you hear politics in the street being talked about and with such dismay and distrust
    You should blame Boris and Farage for rabble-rousing.
    I know I do. The garbage people coming out with on here about civil war is direct from the mouth of Farage without even passing through their own brains. He has a lot to answer for.

  • (NB that quote from me above, isn't from me - another dodgy blockquote edit!)

    Apologies, probably my fat-fingered phone editing, unfortunately I'm too late to edit...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Off topic but has anyone seen ‘American Factory’ on Netflix? It’s a documentary about a Chinese glass company investing in America, turning an old GM car factory in Ohio into a glass factory.

    It’s pretty depressing to be honest. The chinese workers have almost no holidays and quite hypocritically are more anti-union than the Republicans. It’s capitalism on steroids.

    Is this the future?
  • eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    I read somewhere that apparently the government VoNCing themselves won't work. I cannot remember why.
    They don’t VONC themselves - they have a vote of confidence- so all the opposition have to do is abstain and the government passes its own vote of confidence in itself. Otherwise the government would have to vote that they DIDNT have confidence in themselves- great ammunition for the opposition!
    Why would it be ammunition? The public would know its simply a vote to trigger an election.

    In some continental countries the only way to have an early election is by a VONC so its not unusual for the government to VONC itself in order to trigger that.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited September 2019
    algarkirk said:

    Byronic said:

    The unanswered question by all those who are going to ensure on Monday that Boris doesn't get his General Election remains what if he tells the HoC to feck itself and even with the Surrender Bill he isn't going to seek an extension. On 14th October they would have to move for a VONC and he then gets a fortnight to form his government again and then another VONC and is the HoC really going to put Corbyn in?

    If Boris does not request an extension he will be breaking the new law. I know he’s got cojones but I can’t see him seeking arrest. He therefore has to resign. Which means Corbyn PM, or a different caretaker.
    Out of interest, if there was no sanction laid down in the new law, on what grounds would he be arrested?

    Genuine question. It occurs to me that it's not actually been made a crime for Johnson to disobey Parliament's instruction as far as I know. Therefore presumably a complete ignoral of same would have to be JR'ed?
    Contempt of Parliament / Contempt of Court was the consensus here the other day.
    The power of arrest is heavily circumscribed.No-one has a general power of arrest (including police officers). It has to be for lawful reasons. If government or any public body is allegedly in breach of its own rules the remedy is civil action through the courts and both sides can argue their case. There are hundreds of such cases every year. I predict this won't be one of them.

    A further fun thought about contempt: he won't actually be provably not complying with the Act until 23:59:59 31/10/2019 by which time it is too late to ask the Court to order him to comply with it. I believe there are some circumstances where you can get an injunction on quia timet grounds (that the Defendant hasn't yet done something but you have every reason to suppose he will) but it isn't easy, so that adds a whole new layer of iffiness to the situation.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
    Plenty of anger in town this morning.

    I cannot recall a time when you hear politics in the street being talked about and with such dismay and distrust
    You should blame Boris and Farage for rabble-rousing.
    Indeed. It is where it all started. Boris and his silly polemics, and Farage because he was rejected by the Conservative Party for being a fascist
    The peasants getting a bit uppity for you again ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence

    I suspect that bafflement rather than anger is the most common reaction to recent events.
    Plenty of anger in town this morning.

    I cannot recall a time when you hear politics in the street being talked about and with such dismay and distrust
    You should blame Boris and Farage for rabble-rousing.
    Well it is not me involved.

    It is the public and they certainly were not blaming Boris or Farage.

    Their anger was directed at those trying to frustrate the process and Corbyn was getting a real bad time of it
    People are angry on both sides. That's the point. Boris does something and pisses X off, Corbyn does something and upsets Y. There is nothing more to read into that other than politics is polarised.

    The question you might ask is who upped the ante recently, shutting Parliament was definitely a provocative move.



  • Noo said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The people mocking Johnson on twitter all seem to be FBPE - anyone with a "I voted Brexit" picture is backing him... at the moment.

    And that is the big danger. There is plenty of evidence of voter anger over this and this game playing will play out very badly for those engaged in it and, perversely, could give Boris a majority against all the odds and his obvious blustering incompetence
    If MPs want any reminder of what the voters do to those members who try and get too clever by half, they might care to look at the Winchester by-election in 1997.

    May -

    Mark Oaten majority 2

    November (after a court challenge by the losing Tory) -

    Mark Oaten majority 21,556
    Who does the public think is playing games? The consensus on this board seems to be that Dom and Dommer are playing chess with parliament, poker with the constitution, chicken with the EU, and top Trumps with our future trade prospects.
    I suspect, in truth, that No Dealers see Parliament as playing games, Remainers see the Government as playing games, and the (pretty large numbers) who want some form of compromise see everyone as playing games.

    So everyone emerges with reputations diminished. But one side will emerge diminished AND look weak, and that appears to be the Government just now.

    In other words, try to avoid childish and demeaning willy-waving contests, as you won't come out of it looking good but, if you must have such a contest, at least make sure yours is in fact bigger.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Ishmael_Z said:

    algarkirk said:

    Byronic said:

    The unanswered question by all those who are going to ensure on Monday that Boris doesn't get his General Election remains what if he tells the HoC to feck itself and even with the Surrender Bill he isn't going to seek an extension. On 14th October they would have to move for a VONC and he then gets a fortnight to form his government again and then another VONC and is the HoC really going to put Corbyn in?

    If Boris does not request an extension he will be breaking the new law. I know he’s got cojones but I can’t see him seeking arrest. He therefore has to resign. Which means Corbyn PM, or a different caretaker.
    Out of interest, if there was no sanction laid down in the new law, on what grounds would he be arrested?

    Genuine question. It occurs to me that it's not actually been made a crime for Johnson to disobey Parliament's instruction as far as I know. Therefore presumably a complete ignoral of same would have to be JR'ed?
    Contempt of Parliament / Contempt of Court was the consensus here the other day.
    The power of arrest is heavily circumscribed.No-one has a general power of arrest (including police officers). It has to be for lawful reasons. If government or any public body is allegedly in breach of its own rules the remedy is civil action through the courts and both sides can argue their case. There are hundreds of such cases every year. I predict this won't be one of them.

    A further fun thought about contempt: he won't actually be provably not complying with the until 23:59:59 31/10/2019 by which time it is too late to ask the Court to order him to comply with it. I believe there are some circumstances where you can get an injunction on quia timet grounds (that the Defendant hasn't yet done something but you have every reason to suppose he will) but it isn't easy, so that adds a whole new layer of iffiness to the situation.
    He could just tell the court "I have written two letters...."

    He has form!!
  • kle4 said:

    Obviously anecdotal, but I never see much anger at the prospect of an election, just resignation, all 'Oh gawds, well I guess we have to put up with this'. But then its not as though anyone was genuinely angry at politicians for dragging their heels anyway, so the public reaction is pretty moot.

    Indeed, all this faux concern from Brexiteers that people will be building barricades with their bathchairs. They seem to forget, there are 48% of people who are pretty angry about having our kids future opportunities removed by a bunch of pensioners, but we aren't exactly storming the Houses of Parliament. Beyond a very small noisy minority nobody cares. You could stop Brexit tomorrow (not advocating that) and most people would be more interested in who was on Love Island 5 minutes later
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    algarkirk said:

    Genuine question. Can anyone remind me this - it's all so long ago? Why is the backstop objectionable if it is the case that those who are against it all say it is unnecessary because a solution will be found?

    There's a range of opinion on that, especially since some of those who call it the anti-democratic backstop nevertheless considered it acceptable vs no Brexit at all, such as the PM himself. Philip Thompson can more exhaustively summarise the view for whom the mere risk of it is unacceptable on any grounds because they will be subject to laws with on representation or some such, but as to the point about why anyone should care when everyone seems to think a solution will be found, neither side seems to actually believe that it will be found no matter what is said, so the assumption is we will face the backstop (some say the EU will not want us to use it, others believe they will not agree anything else because they want us to use it) at some point.

    But as far as I can see it is not a real issue in any case, on either side, given we end up with the situation the backstop is supposed to prevent by including it/not time limiting it, and given the aforementioned Borisites might not like it but demonstrably are prepared to accept it, making their rhetoric against it false.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    eek said:



    It would be close - but I think Boris gets No confidenced - and the process starts for the election.

    Not quite - there is 14 days in which another Government could be created.
    Which is a risk for BoJo if some clever chaps back his ruse to no-confidence himself.. then switch sides and back a Corbyn/Harman/Clarke/Jo Johnson/Kermit the Frog interim.

    (Though this suggests a level of opposition co-ordination which I'm not convinced is present)
    I read somewhere that apparently the government VoNCing themselves won't work. I cannot remember why.
    They don’t VONC themselves - they have a vote of confidence- so all the opposition have to do is abstain and the government passes its own vote of confidence in itself. Otherwise the government would have to vote that they DIDNT have confidence in themselves- great ammunition for the opposition!
    Why would it be ammunition? The public would know its simply a vote to trigger an election.

    In some continental countries the only way to have an early election is by a VONC so its not unusual for the government to VONC itself in order to trigger that.
    You’re right. Nobody will care if Boris if VONCs himself and nobody will care if JC votes to give confidence in Boris.

    Everyone knows the game going on here.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Ok let me give you a personal anecdote FWIW. Lunch with parents today and was round Wednesday too, politics discussed. Mum a tory voter, much more enthusiastically than she let's on dad doesn't vote often, occasionally Tory, last voted labour under Wilson whom he thinks was the absolute bomb. Both voted to leave.
    Dad - hates Boris, hates the opposition, despises Farage. Will not vote, thinks Boris is a fraud and a chancer. Would now support revoke article 50 to sort out what we do over the next couple of years

    Mum - very protective of poor Boris as she was of poor TM and the nasty Corbyn ruining things, wants to let him get on with it but appears genuinely uncertain she can vote this time, feels all MPs have let us down but she, like me, wants Clive Lewis kicked out of our seat

    Boris is definitely provoking feelings about politics
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    algarkirk said:

    Genuine question. Can anyone remind me this - it's all so long ago? Why is the backstop objectionable if it is the case that those who are against it all say it is unnecessary because a solution will be found?

    Because anyone who has looked into it knows that a solution cannot be implemented in the time available so its a problem.
  • Ok let me give you a personal anecdote FWIW. Lunch with parents today and was round Wednesday too, politics discussed. Mum a tory voter, much more enthusiastically than she let's on dad doesn't vote often, occasionally Tory, last voted labour under Wilson whom he thinks was the absolute bomb. Both voted to leave.
    Dad - hates Boris, hates the opposition, despises Farage. Will not vote, thinks Boris is a fraud and a chancer. Would now support revoke article 50 to sort out what we do over the next couple of years

    Mum - very protective of poor Boris as she was of poor TM and the nasty Corbyn ruining things, wants to let him get on with it but appears genuinely uncertain she can vote this time, feels all MPs have let us down but she, like me, wants Clive Lewis kicked out of our seat

    Boris is definitely provoking feelings about politics

    Of that there is little doubt
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