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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    In which seats would the Tories stand down in favour of the Brexit Party?

    Knowsley, East Ham, Liverpool Walton...
    Not seats the Brexit Party has any chance of winning.
    My gods, that had never occurred to me, I just picked three of the very safest Labour seats in the country by pure chance.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    In which seats would the Tories stand down in favour of the Brexit Party?

    Knowsley, East Ham, Liverpool Walton...
    Walthamstow, Islington North, Islington South, Camberwell & Peckham.
    Mornington Crescent.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    In which seats would the Tories stand down in favour of the Brexit Party?

    Knowsley, East Ham, Liverpool Walton...
    Not seats the Brexit Party has any chance of winning.
    I think that was his point!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    You really are funny.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    The inverse is also the case - people more than happy to see Scotland leave the UK, but horrified at the thought of the UK leaving the EU.
    This one makes more sense: some people believe in Scottish independence because they don't feel the values of Scotland are reflected in the governments elected to Westminster. The (perceived) gap in values is, for some, reflected by a similar gap between England and Europe. Put simply, some see England as being out of step with Scotland and Europe, and therefore something to separate from. You can see the coherence of that without agreeing with all or any of the premises.
    Or perhaps they are ignorant of the damage the SNP is doing to Scotland and they have it down as some leftie utopia - rather than a nation on the decline as education standards fall fast.
    I dunno, the SNP seems remarkably popular still after how many years in government? I respect that your opinion is yours, but in saying "they are ignorant" you seem to be saying the voters are wrong.
    I think the people who actually live in Scotland are well capable of making choices that are right for them.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    This isn't remotely true. The SNP is a centrist party with a mix of socialist and conservative appeal. It's better to describe it as a big tent party. There would be no consensus for a radical change to the economy. Those folks are more attracted to the Greens.
    Taxes are higher, they wanted a named person scheme to snoop on every household - they have apartheid schools - education standards are plummeting, they waste money on silly Gaelic signs. Their leader was a sex pest. Their system runs on cronyism and patronage and pandering to sections of society and preferred communities. It’s a banana republic without the weather to grow bananas.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    In which seats would the Tories stand down in favour of the Brexit Party?

    Knowsley, East Ham, Liverpool Walton...
    Walthamstow, Islington North, Islington South, Camberwell & Peckham.
    Mornington Crescent.
    😌
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    edited September 2019

    TGOHF said:

    Fairly weak, thin stuff, at least at this stage.
    It's also seemingly based on a misperception:

    "There are many who believe that if Vote Leave and Leave.EU worked together during the referendum campaign then the Leave vote would have been even higher."

    There is actually loads of evidence to suggest the reverse - that Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigning separately was a big benefit to the Leave cause.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    In which seats would the Tories stand down in favour of the Brexit Party?

    Knowsley, East Ham, Liverpool Walton...
    Not seats the Brexit Party has any chance of winning.
    My gods, that had never occurred to me, I just picked three of the very safest Labour seats in the country by pure chance.
    😂
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Feels like this is the most changey Change election there’s been in a long time to me.

    Is Corbyn a change or is he now old hat?

    Boris is more of the same. But is No Deal itself the Change?

    Or is it instead 2x% each for Swinson and Farage?

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited September 2019
    moonshine said:

    Feels like this is the most changey Change election there’s been in a long time to me.

    Is Corbyn a change or is he now old hat?

    Boris is more of the same. But is No Deal itself the Change?

    Or is it instead 2x% each for Swinson and Farage?

    There could be some enormous swings this time

    It's a shame Dimbleby has retired I've got his voice in my head saying 'we were expecting Sunderland South and houghton to be first to declare but we are hearing theres a recount, that can't be right can it?'
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    edited September 2019
    TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    This isn't remotely true. The SNP is a centrist party with a mix of socialist and conservative appeal. It's better to describe it as a big tent party. There would be no consensus for a radical change to the economy. Those folks are more attracted to the Greens.
    Taxes are higher, they wanted a named person scheme to snoop on every household - they have apartheid schools - education standards are plummeting, they waste money on silly Gaelic signs. Their leader was a sex pest. Their system runs on cronyism and patronage and pandering to sections of society and preferred communities. It’s a banana republic without the weather to grow bananas.
    It's time this kind of mindset is given its chance to govern.

    https://twitter.com/TyBracey/status/1168938463774855168?s=20
  • dixiedean said:

    Scott_P said:
    First? FPT and re the "hostage" stuff.

    I've been wondering if there's a possibility for the opposition (or at least, a segment of the opposition necessary to reach the 2/3 threshold) to demand something else in return for granting Johnson's preferred timing (and hence avoid looking like election-ducking cowards).

    Perhaps something really humiliating to absolutely underline the narrative that Boris is weak and doesn't/can't keep his promises.

    Perhaps a favourable change to the electoral laws. Don't think you could do anything super-radical here - implementing the boundary review would actually likely favour the Tories, wouldn't it? And not much else is easily ready to roll out. AV is off the menu after its referendum failure. PR or multi-member STV would be too drastic to push through (though I'm sure there's some ancient STV legislation that could be given a dusting-off...). But how about:

    "This is a generational-defining election, and the voting age must accordingly fall to 16 - just as it is already in the more progressive parts of the UK."

    Is that a go-er? My first thought was that the logistics would be tricky in terms of registration, but in principle there'd be time for the eager ones to register during the campaign and the less-than-eager probably wouldn't vote anyway.

    There's got to be something tempting about trying to lock in a permanent electoral advantage in return for a one-off concession over timing, particularly if the timing issue is a double-edged takeaway-flavoured sword for them...
    ab195 said:

    Honestly, the likely reaction of posh snobs is now a good enough reason to want to see Boris win.

    You want to see JRM happy? Edit. Gallowgate got in first.
    I saw this and was hoping the Brains Trust on here might have an answer to my question :-(
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    TGOHF said:
    The LDs couldn't stomach a bit of Tory scum in their ranks? Who'd a thunk it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    This isn't remotely true. The SNP is a centrist party with a mix of socialist and conservative appeal. It's better to describe it as a big tent party. There would be no consensus for a radical change to the economy. Those folks are more attracted to the Greens.
    Taxes are higher, they wanted a named person scheme to snoop on every household - they have apartheid schools - education standards are plummeting, they waste money on silly Gaelic signs. Their leader was a sex pest. Their system runs on cronyism and patronage and pandering to sections of society and preferred communities. It’s a banana republic without the weather to grow bananas.
    It's time this kind of mindset is given its chance to govern.

    https://twitter.com/TyBracey/status/1168938463774855168?s=20
    Still a bit raw from the footie and the special brew Union ?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226

    moonshine said:

    Feels like this is the most changey Change election there’s been in a long time to me.

    Is Corbyn a change or is he now old hat?

    Boris is more of the same. But is No Deal itself the Change?

    Or is it instead 2x% each for Swinson and Farage?

    There could be some enormous swings this time

    It's a shame Dimbleby has retired I've got his voice in my head saying 'we were expecting Sunderland South and houghton to be first to declare but we are hearing theres a recount, that can't be right can it?'
    I think that would rather depend on The Pact. Which is either the third to last chapter in Tim Shipman’s next book or a pipe dream.

    Even in 2015, Con + UKIP was 40%.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    TGOHF said:



    Taxes are higher, they wanted a named person scheme to snoop on every household - they have apartheid schools - education standards are plummeting, they waste money on silly Gaelic signs. Their leader was a sex pest. Their system runs on cronyism and patronage and pandering to sections of society and preferred communities. It’s a banana republic without the weather to grow bananas.

    Income taxes are slightly higher, I believe because a Conservative tax cut was not followed... it's pretty marginal to be honest, hardly the stuff of socialism (and even if it were, that would mean the Conservatives were before that tax cut too!).
    The named person scheme is not "snooping on every household", it's a safeguarding measure to combat some horrifying situations in the UK in previous years. Feel free to make a liberal case against it, but it was widely supported by children's charities.
    Show me evidence of education standards falling -- I don't know much about this, but your views seem to be tribally driven so I won't just take your word for it.
    Gaelic is a native language of these islands... I don't know why you would want to suppress it.
    The allegations against Salmond are very worrying, but it's not my place to defend him. I don't like him, and I've condemned other actions of his (his stupid dalliance with RT). But even if he's guilty, the SNP are hardly the only party to have such a person in their midst.
    Cronyism / patronage... evidence please, don't know what you're on about.
    Banana republic: Scotland is a monarchy, not a republic. But you are right about the weather, so I guess I'll give you that one point.

    Seriously though, your criticisms don't seem well balanced. If all what you were saying ware true, they'd have been shoved out of office long ago. I know feelings are high about independence, but I for whatever reason I don't think you're able to set those feelings aside and make a sensible assessment of the SNP. They have been the electorally success story of the bast fifteen years in this country. This brand of furious and outright denunciation that you're typifying hasn't worked to stop that.. .have you asked yourself why?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Feels like this is the most changey Change election there’s been in a long time to me.

    Is Corbyn a change or is he now old hat?

    Boris is more of the same. But is No Deal itself the Change?

    Or is it instead 2x% each for Swinson and Farage?

    There could be some enormous swings this time

    It's a shame Dimbleby has retired I've got his voice in my head saying 'we were expecting Sunderland South and houghton to be first to declare but we are hearing theres a recount, that can't be right can it?'
    I think that would rather depend on The Pact. Which is either the third to last chapter in Tim Shipman’s next book or a pipe dream.

    Even in 2015, Con + UKIP was 40%.
    Were you up for all the north and Midlands
  • TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    HYUFD said:

    +3% to the Brexit party when they've hardly been in the media, except a brief interview with Farage on one of the news stations being questioned on a 'pact', and Tice on Question Time.

    Could just be margin of error stuff.

    They are the BREXIT Party: they are *always* in the media. Day in, day out, week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out. Soon decade in, decade out.

    The Brexit Party is there to stay in England, because Brexit is there to stay. You lot will be banging on about it in fifty years time. That’s why we’re offski.

    Given latest indy poll in Scotland is 51% No 49% Remain would not be so sure about that
    On a poll like that, it's too close to call, but FWIW I think Stuart is right. For good or for ill, Scotland's going.
    If Brexit happens it probably makes Scottish independence even more unlikely. Would Scotland really vote to be outside the UK single market when it is already outside the EU's? Hmm, would be a bold step.
    It would probably be enthusiastically welcomed back into the EU in that scenario.
    Not much change for the Scots - just swap being a net recipient of cash from one richer union from another.
    Actually I thought Scotland would be a net contributor if it joined the EU. I saw the numbers somewhere but can’t remember where. Moving the UK out substantially changes the financial dynamics of the EU. If anybody can point to the relevant figures I would be grateful.
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    This isn't remotely true. The SNP is a centrist party with a mix of socialist and conservative appeal. It's better to describe it as a big tent party. There would be no consensus for a radical change to the economy. Those folks are more attracted to the Greens.
    Taxes are higher, they wanted a named person scheme to snoop on every household - they have apartheid schools - education standards are plummeting, they waste money on silly Gaelic signs. Their leader was a sex pest. Their system runs on cronyism and patronage and pandering to sections of society and preferred communities. It’s a banana republic without the weather to grow bananas.
    It's time this kind of mindset is given its chance to govern.

    https://twitter.com/TyBracey/status/1168938463774855168?s=20
    Still a bit raw from the footie and the special brew Union ?
    Not as raw as you, sport.
    Difficult to work out whether The People are more boorish when they're losing or winning, though analysis of the latter has to be applied to oldco RFC for anything of note.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2019
    The Conservatives could lose Beaconsfield and gain Scunthorpe. Labour might gain Chipping Barnet and lose Dudley North.
  • One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.


    Of all the pro-leave people I know, the only one who is against Scotland leaving the UK if it’s people choose to do so, is a Scot himself.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    It must be late I'm chuckling to myself on the sofa dreaming up the most offensive things Boris could say in the extension request letter. I can be really offensive when I try, I'm quite proud of myself
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    AndyJS said:

    The Conservatives could lose Beaconsfield and gain Scunthorpe. Labour might gain Chipping Barnet and lose Dudley North.

    Seems pointless speculating when the Opposition refuses to allow an election and there's seemingly no prospect of them ever allowing voters to vote again (in the next few month anyway)
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    GIN1138 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The Conservatives could lose Beaconsfield and gain Scunthorpe. Labour might gain Chipping Barnet and lose Dudley North.

    Seems pointless speculating when the Opposition refuses to allow an election and there's seemingly no prospect of them ever allowing voters to vote again (in the next few month anyway)
    Nevertheless, you'll be back tomorrow to do just that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Feels like this is the most changey Change election there’s been in a long time to me.

    Is Corbyn a change or is he now old hat?

    Boris is more of the same. But is No Deal itself the Change?

    Or is it instead 2x% each for Swinson and Farage?

    There could be some enormous swings this time

    It's a shame Dimbleby has retired I've got his voice in my head saying 'we were expecting Sunderland South and houghton to be first to declare but we are hearing theres a recount, that can't be right can it?'
    I think that would rather depend on The Pact. Which is either the third to last chapter in Tim Shipman’s next book or a pipe dream.

    Even in 2015, Con + UKIP was 40%.
    No it was 50%
  • Boris banged up in Strangeways would be a rather interesting ending to all this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/06/boris-johnson-set-defy-law-rather-ask-brexit-delay/

    e Netflix series story arc would demand that he be in Wormwood Scrubs.

    On another note, Simon Callow has offered this evening to play Bercow in any forthcoming drama.
    Perfect casting. Both self satisfied egotists.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    That's ingenious - in principle enables SF to engineer some anti-Tory MPs without having to go there themselves. But would anyone have a pact with them?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    This isn't remotely true. The SNP is a centrist party with a mix of socialist and conservative appeal. It's better to describe it as a big tent party. There would be no consensus for a radical change to the economy. Those folks are more attracted to the Greens.
    Taxes are higher, they wanted a named person scheme to snoop on every household - they have apartheid schools - education standards are plummeting, they waste money on silly Gaelic signs. Their leader was a sex pest. Their system runs on cronyism and patronage and pandering to sections of society and preferred communities. It’s a banana republic without the weather to grow bananas.
    It's time this kind of mindset is given its chance to govern.

    https://twitter.com/TyBracey/status/1168938463774855168?s=20
    Still a bit raw from the footie and the special brew Union ?
    I thought you were Scottish?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited September 2019

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    I've always been completely relaxed about Scotland leaving the Union if they wish.

    In the 2014 refernedum I basically didn't pick a side on here because I felt it wasn't for me to comment.

    If Scotland wishes to leave then that's a matter for them - I would prefer them to stay because I feel close friendship and kinship to Scotland and Scots but if they choose a different path I will wish them farewell and say good luck to them. :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dadge said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't usually agree with williamglenn, but how can Boris be losing ground to the Brexit Party? He has fought as hard as he can to try to get no deal for them, but I guess they cannot abide weakness. It will do them no favours though - he's the only potential PM they have to root for who will seek no deal, will they truly abandon him and ensure it does not happen?

    Almost by accident Labour are stumbling into a winning strategy, even though their own polling is still crap. Winning being in the sense they can cripple the tories by preventing no deal.

    The game playing at Werstminster could end up leading to a mass switch of Con (and some Lab) to Brexit...

    Remainers are playing with fire and should be careful what they wish for...
    Even if the Brexit Party is on 20%+ of the vote they won't win many seats as the don't have the ground campaign and resources to do so .
    In the May era there was clearly a ro Farage is exactly what Corbyn and Swinson need to do.
    While encouraging Labour voters to switch to Swinson (up to a point) is exactly what Boris and Farage need to do
    Tactical voting is the key!

    Labour where there is a sound sitting MP, Lib Dem elsewhere. It was a key part of the 97 landslide, and may be re-emerging.
    Not if last night's council by elections are anything to go by, big swing from Labour to LDs and Tories won 2 out of 3 seats with a voteshare barely up at all
    Oi! You said that Tory candidates' pledges should be written in blood. Whose blood?
    Their own
    Would you extend that to Tory council candidates?
    No, as Tory councillors have no control over Brexit unlike Tory MPs, if they stood for Parliament then obviously it would apply
    So you are saying that Tory council candidates don't have the same commitment as Tory PPCs?
    Tory council candidates have control over council tax, planning, highways, libraries, social services, culture etc they have no control over Brexit which only Westminster has power on.

    So it is irrelevant what Tory council candidates think on Brexit unlike Tory parliamentary candidates
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    That's ingenious - in principle enables SF to engineer some anti-Tory MPs without having to go there themselves. But would anyone have a pact with them?
    Only realistic targets lagan valley and 2 of the belfast seats, only one of those has SF not the main challenge, that's the SDLP. So maybe one anti Tory MP
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    edited September 2019
    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    GIN1138 said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    I've always been completely relaxed about Scotland leaving the Union if they wish.

    In the 2014 refernedum I basically didn't pick a side on here because I felt it wasn't for me to comment.

    If Scotland wishes to leave then that's a matter for them - I would wish them to stay because I feel close friendship and kinship to Scotland and Scots but if they choose a different path I with wish farewell and say good luck to them. :)
    Refreshing words from you there.
    Just remember that even if Scotland does become a separate country, we can still feel friendship and kinship with them.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    GIN1138 said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    I've always been completely relaxed about Scotland leaving the Union if they wish.

    In the 2014 refernedum I basically didn't pick a side on here because I felt it wasn't for me to comment.

    If Scotland wishes to leave then that's a matter for them - I would prefer them to stay because I feel close friendship and kinship to Scotland and Scots but if they choose a different path I will wish them farewell and say good luck to them. :)
    Most of us feel that way in England don’t we? I think the Cameron mob came over as almost possessive in 2014. Perhaps they feel that way? I don’t know.

    I don’t think anyone English should interfere and if there’s a nationalist majority that wants it, they should have a vote once per Scots Parliament. Why ever would anyone want to feel another country was being forced to stay in their union?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    GIN1138 said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    I've always been completely relaxed about Scotland leaving the Union if they wish.

    In the 2014 refernedum I basically didn't pick a side on here because I felt it wasn't for me to comment.

    If Scotland wishes to leave then that's a matter for them - I would prefer them to stay because I feel close friendship and kinship to Scotland and Scots but if they choose a different path I will wish them farewell and say good luck to them. :)
    Fair play.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    That probably a fair description of where I'm at right now. Corbyn's gone up in my estimation in recent days, and my assumption I'd be voting Lib Dem next election wavered earlier this week. I still think I'll vote Lib Dem, but I'm not as sure as I was. Depends on what happens between now and then. Might not have to decide for another 2.5 years..
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    GIN1138 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The Conservatives could lose Beaconsfield and gain Scunthorpe. Labour might gain Chipping Barnet and lose Dudley North.

    Seems pointless speculating when the Opposition refuses to allow an election and there's seemingly no prospect of them ever allowing voters to vote again (in the next few month anyway)
    I don't think they'll be able to hold off an election for more than a few weeks.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    Noo said:

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    That probably a fair description of where I'm at right now. Corbyn's gone up in my estimation in recent days, and my assumption I'd be voting Lib Dem next election wavered earlier this week. I still think I'll vote Lib Dem, but I'm not as sure as I was. Depends on what happens between now and then. Might not have to decide for another 2.5 years..
    I’d now vote tactically for the person best placed to defeat the europhobic government, be that Lab, Lib or Tory Rebel.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:
    All hail Boris mayor of London
    All hail Boris securer of Brexit
    All hail Boris thou shalt be king hereafter!

    Where shall we three meet again? In Chelmsford, Brighton or in Staines?
  • That's ingenious - in principle enables SF to engineer some anti-Tory MPs without having to go there themselves. But would anyone have a pact with them?
    Only realistic targets lagan valley and 2 of the belfast seats, only one of those has SF not the main challenge, that's the SDLP. So maybe one anti Tory MP
    AFAIK SF has never had an electoral pact with any other part in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland. However there may be other ways to influence Brexit...https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-can-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-here-s-how-1.3972121
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    GIN1138 said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    I've always been completely relaxed about Scotland leaving the Union if they wish.

    In the 2014 refernedum I basically didn't pick a side on here because I felt it wasn't for me to comment.

    If Scotland wishes to leave then that's a matter for them - I would prefer them to stay because I feel close friendship and kinship to Scotland and Scots but if they choose a different path I will wish them farewell and say good luck to them. :)
    Well said.
  • OK!! We get it ! You dont like Johnson!!
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    OK!! We get it ! You dont like Johnson!!

    OK!! We get it ! You dont like this website!!
  • TSE is a bore and this site is in danger of becoming of unreadable
    .
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2019
    Don't UK laws only apply in the UK usually? If the law is asking Boris to do something in another country, such as signing a document, technically it wouldn't apply.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Noo said:

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    That probably a fair description of where I'm at right now. Corbyn's gone up in my estimation in recent days, and my assumption I'd be voting Lib Dem next election wavered earlier this week. I still think I'll vote Lib Dem, but I'm not as sure as I was. Depends on what happens between now and then. Might not have to decide for another 2.5 years..
    I’d now vote tactically for the person best placed to defeat the europhobic government, be that Lab, Lib or Tory Rebel.
    I'm going for person best placed to oust Clive Lewis
  • Noo said:

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    That probably a fair description of where I'm at right now. Corbyn's gone up in my estimation in recent days, and my assumption I'd be voting Lib Dem next election wavered earlier this week. I still think I'll vote Lib Dem, but I'm not as sure as I was. Depends on what happens between now and then. Might not have to decide for another 2.5 years..
    I’d now vote tactically for the person best placed to defeat the europhobic government, be that Lab, Lib or Tory Rebel.
    Do you mind me asking if you live in a (for want of a more elegant phrase) Johnsonite Conservative constituency?

    I get the impression that the electors of all hues are more than willing to vote tactically but their parties will refuse. One more reason for abolition of FPTP I suppose.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    TSE is a bore and this site is in danger of becoming of unreadable
    .

    evening plank
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    (for want of a more elegant phrase) Johnsonite

    Borish is better than Johnsonite, shurely?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    AndyJS said:

    Don't UK laws only apply in the UK usually? If the law is asking Boris to do something in another country, such as signing a document, technically it wouldn't apply.

    Pedant corner: there are no such things as UK laws.

    There are the laws of England & Wales, and there are foreign laws.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    Boris' best PM rating is 17% above the Tory share, Corbyn's best PM rating is only 2% above the Labour share
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Noo said:

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    That probably a fair description of where I'm at right now. Corbyn's gone up in my estimation in recent days, and my assumption I'd be voting Lib Dem next election wavered earlier this week. I still think I'll vote Lib Dem, but I'm not as sure as I was. Depends on what happens between now and then. Might not have to decide for another 2.5 years..
    I’d now vote tactically for the person best placed to defeat the europhobic government, be that Lab, Lib or Tory Rebel.
    Do you mind me asking if you live in a (for want of a more elegant phrase) Johnsonite Conservative constituency?

    I get the impression that the electors of all hues are more than willing to vote tactically but their parties will refuse. One more reason for abolition of FPTP I suppose.
    Yes, a Tory (Labour) marginal. It would be wise for the Libs to stand down here, but they won’t!
  • Noo said:

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    That probably a fair description of where I'm at right now. Corbyn's gone up in my estimation in recent days, and my assumption I'd be voting Lib Dem next election wavered earlier this week. I still think I'll vote Lib Dem, but I'm not as sure as I was. Depends on what happens between now and then. Might not have to decide for another 2.5 years..
    I’d now vote tactically for the person best placed to defeat the europhobic government, be that Lab, Lib or Tory Rebel.
    Do you mind me asking if you live in a (for want of a more elegant phrase) Johnsonite Conservative constituency?

    I get the impression that the electors of all hues are more than willing to vote tactically but their parties will refuse. One more reason for abolition of FPTP I suppose.
    Yes, a Tory (Labour) marginal. It would be wise for the Libs to stand down here, but they won’t!
    Thank you.

    I think that also goes along with my suspicions about GNU PM. None of the party leaders will allow another to steal a march on them.

  • Noo said:

    (for want of a more elegant phrase) Johnsonite

    Borish is better than Johnsonite, shurely?

    :D
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234
    AndyJS said:

    Don't UK laws only apply in the UK usually? If the law is asking Boris to do something in another country, such as signing a document, technically it wouldn't apply.

    No. Definitely not, in fact. Think about it, how would sanctions ever be able to be applied? If a paedophile is known to have had sex with underage children in another country, then that man is arrested in the UK, despite the crime taking place outside UK jurisdiction. Jihadists fighting in Syria are arrested in the UK, despite the crime taking place outside UK jurisdiction.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234

    AndyJS said:

    Don't UK laws only apply in the UK usually? If the law is asking Boris to do something in another country, such as signing a document, technically it wouldn't apply.

    Pedant corner: there are no such things as UK laws.

    There are the laws of England & Wales, and there are foreign laws.
    Ouch, you caught it and I didn't. Separate jurisdictions, yes. Did I mention I've been to Belfast this week? I might not have mentioned it. A plane was involved... :)
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    HYUFD said:
    That is pretty damning. I was in the belief that Boris was the out of order one, but going behind the back of Her Majesty's government to hold the PM hostage is bad.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Big news:

    "Maine Poised To Be First State To Use Ranked Choice Voting In A Presidential Election
    The process, which allows voters to rank multiple candidates, will be in effect for the 2020 general election, but not the primary."

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/maine-ranked-choice-voting-2020_n_5d72ca74e4b06451356df0f3
  • Will Johnson sell out NI to get across the line on Oct 31?

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1169958761542406144?s=20
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,722
    Brexit is really making us respected abroad
    https://twitter.com/adamlangleben/status/1170063887745671169?s=20
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    AndyJS said:

    Big news:

    "Maine Poised To Be First State To Use Ranked Choice Voting In A Presidential Election
    The process, which allows voters to rank multiple candidates, will be in effect for the 2020 general election, but not the primary."

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/maine-ranked-choice-voting-2020_n_5d72ca74e4b06451356df0f3

    We're having a referendum in November on whether to adopt it in New York State but it’ll only be for primaries and special (i.e. by-) elections initially. It’s expected to pass.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    edited September 2019
    CatMan said:
    Why would you care what any other country thinks? F%%% ‘em.

    When pushed my (and many others’) view will always be “very well then, alone”.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    That might have a bit more bite if it wasn't coming out of a country that elected an orange reality tv clown as President.

    CatMan said:
  • Andrew said:

    That might have a bit more bite if it wasn't coming out of a country that elected an orange reality tv clown as President.



    CatMan said:
    You can’t help but feel the cousins are engaging in displacement activity.....while their President has been caught tampering with weather charts...a criminal offence.....How is Johnson going to top that?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Noo said:

    On topic, it looks as though a bit of the Bored of Brexit vote is drifting from Tories to BXP, with Boris's personal ratings massively down. In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved.

    It's the first time for a while that Corbyn's best PM rating has been higher than the Labour share - some feeling he'd be better than Boris but voting LibDem.

    That probably a fair description of where I'm at right now. Corbyn's gone up in my estimation in recent days, and my assumption I'd be voting Lib Dem next election wavered earlier this week. I still think I'll vote Lib Dem, but I'm not as sure as I was. Depends on what happens between now and then. Might not have to decide for another 2.5 years..
    I’d now vote tactically for the person best placed to defeat the europhobic government, be that Lab, Lib or Tory Rebel.
    I'm going for person best placed to oust Clive Lewis
    That's either LD or Green
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Noo said:

    +3% to the Brexit party when they've hardly been in the media, except a brief interview with Farage on one of the news stations being questioned on a 'pact', and Tice on Question Time.

    Could just be margin of error stuff.

    They are the BREXIT Party: they are *always* in the media. Day in, day out, week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out. Soon decade in, decade out.

    The Brexit Party is there to stay in England, because Brexit is there to stay. You lot will be banging on about it in fifty years time. That’s why we’re offski.

    38% of votes in Scotland in the EU ref went to Leave, despite a more or less non-existent Leave campaign there.

    The Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the recent EU elections, admittedly a distant second but still creditable.

    Scotland is hardly a Leaver-free zone, however much Sturgeon likes to portray it.
    The Remain campaign was also non-existent in Scotland. There had just been a Holyrood election, and everybody's activists were knackered. Furthermore, everybody knew the result in Scotland would be a comfortable Remain.
    It's a referendum though, extending a 10000 vote lead in an area to 12000 is as important as turning a -1000 to a 1000 in another
  • In the Survation fine print, most people don't want an election until Brexit is resolved

    That settles it, Norway+referendum, what are they waiting for?

  • Andrew said:

    That might have a bit more bite if it wasn't coming out of a country that elected an orange reality tv clown as President.



    CatMan said:
    Whereas our own dear Boris made his name clowning on HIGNFY.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rpjs said:

    AndyJS said:

    Big news:

    "Maine Poised To Be First State To Use Ranked Choice Voting In A Presidential Election
    The process, which allows voters to rank multiple candidates, will be in effect for the 2020 general election, but not the primary."

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/maine-ranked-choice-voting-2020_n_5d72ca74e4b06451356df0f3

    We're having a referendum in November on whether to adopt it in New York State but it’ll only be for primaries and special (i.e. by-) elections initially. It’s expected to pass.
    Maybe they'll extend it to the general election eventually.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    Whereas our own dear Boris made his name clowning on HIGNFY.

    Well, yes, but also editor of the Spectator, twice Mayor of London, and Foreign Sec. Whatever you think of him, and I'm not a fan myself, he has some relevant experience. Trump has none.
  • zzzzzz.....echo chamber in full flow again I see.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    The opposition should have agreed an election. Whether it was Johnson’s plan or not, the people should have been given the chance to express their view. I think this makes no deal more likely now - and if you thought it would have been bad on Oct 31st, god knows how bad it will be on Jan 31st.

    And what happens if the EU refuse the extension of 3 months in favour of a different time frame? They might ask why they should grant such a short extension, and Johnson will be well within his rights to fail to give a reason. He could even now justify ruling out a General Election in the intervening period (“if the Opposition won’t have an election on my terms, i’m damned if i’m going to agree to one on there’s”)
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Andrew said:


    Whereas our own dear Boris made his name clowning on HIGNFY.

    Well, yes, but also editor of the Spectator, twice Mayor of London, and Foreign Sec. Whatever you think of him, and I'm not a fan myself, he has some relevant experience. Trump has none.
    Why is “editor of the Spectator” considered “relevant experience”?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited September 2019
    Edit above: although I suppose the election can happen via a VoNC so scrap that. But I don’t think it is acceptable to legislatively force the PM into a course of action without allowing an election as an alternative. However much he may want it.
  • Noo said:

    At least SLab are beating TBP in that Yougov SCon constituency only poll. They'll probably take that in the current climate.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1170086850700161025?s=20

    SLab down 10 is entirely consistent with recent results in by elections.

    Ian Murray stands alone on the barricades of Morningside.
    Murray, like Swinson, is entirely dependent on mass SCon tactical voting. In the current harsh split within Unionism, I cannot see that pattern holding.
    Morningside is safe territory for Murray. It's Remain central, Murray is well known and liked as a constituency MP, and they know him to be hostile to the excesses of Corbynism. Any rotting of Labour from the head down will reach Morningside last of all. There will not be a change of MP unless Murray stands down or the boundaries change.
    I didn’t say Murray would lose. I said that I cannot see the 2017 pattern of mass SCon tactical voting holding, due to the current harsh split within Unionism.*

    Murray ought to hold on in Edinburgh South, on a much reduced majority. As should Christine Jardine in Edinburgh West.

    But Jo Swinson and Jamie Stone are *much* more vulnerable to Unionist unwind. Swinson’s new profile as party leader ought to help her, but Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross is anyone’s guess. Depends a lot on the calibre of the SNP candidate. Weirdly, the Brexit Party have already selected a PPC for that seat (Sandra Skinner).

    (* For the avoidance of doubt, the current harsh split within Unionism = Brexit)
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    You really are funny.
    This quality of Unionist debate is bog standard in Scotland. They have zero policy platform to promote, so they just hurl preposterous abuse. Before Venezuela they were banging on about the Yugoslav war. Cuba is a perennial favourite.

    They think they’re being clever, but what they are really doing is betraying their profound hatred (often self-hatred). They really do think that Scotland is a basket case and that Scots are complete morons. And then they wonder why they’ve been out of power in Edinburgh for 12 years, with no end in sight.

    They are very comfortable with a high tax, high spend, puritanical, meddling and authoritarian Conservative government in London, but the prospect of vibrant, open, innovative, multi-party democracy in Edinburgh horrifies them.
  • NEW THREAD

  • Good morning, everyone.

    F1 qualifying later today. Currently looks like it might be a Leclerc/Hamilton battle. If the Mercedes engine holds up...
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    NEW THREAD
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    HYUFD said:

    +3% to the Brexit party when they've hardly been in the media, except a brief interview with Farage on one of the news stations being questioned on a 'pact', and Tice on Question Time.

    Could just be margin of error stuff.

    They are the BREXIT Party: they are *always* in the media. Day in, day out, week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out. Soon decade in, decade out.

    The Brexit Party is there to stay in England, because Brexit is there to stay. You lot will be banging on about it in fifty years time. That’s why we’re offski.

    Given latest indy poll in Scotland is 51% No 49% Remain would not be so sure about that
    On a poll like that, it's too close to call, but FWIW I think Stuart is right. For good or for ill, Scotland's going.
    If Brexit happens it probably makes Scottish independence even more unlikely. Would Scotland really vote to be outside the UK single market when it is already outside the EU's? Hmm, would be a bold step.
    It would probably be enthusiastically welcomed back into the EU in that scenario.
    Not much change for the Scots - just swap being a net recipient of cash from one richer union from another.
    Actually I thought Scotland would be a net contributor if it joined the EU. I saw the numbers somewhere but can’t remember where. Moving the UK out substantially changes the financial dynamics of the EU. If anybody can point to the relevant figures I would be grateful.
    Schrodinger's paradox where Scotland is a bankrupt penniless poverty stricken state and also so rich it is a net contributor to the EU.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Can somebody point out what the penalty in law would be for Boris ignoring the stop no deal bill? Is that set out in the legislation?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    +3% to the Brexit party when they've hardly been in the media, except a brief interview with Farage on one of the news stations being questioned on a 'pact', and Tice on Question Time.

    Could just be margin of error stuff.

    They are the BREXIT Party: they are *always* in the media. Day in, day out, week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out. Soon decade in, decade out.

    The Brexit Party is there to stay in England, because Brexit is there to stay. You lot will be banging on about it in fifty years time. That’s why we’re offski.

    Given latest indy poll in Scotland is 51% No 49% Remain would not be so sure about that
    We started IndyRef1 on 28% and ended up on 45%. We’re absolutely fine about starting IndyRef2 on 50%.
    When’s it coming - 2031 ?
    Silly Boy
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    +3% to the Brexit party when they've hardly been in the media, except a brief interview with Farage on one of the news stations being questioned on a 'pact', and Tice on Question Time.

    Could just be margin of error stuff.

    They are the BREXIT Party: they are *always* in the media. Day in, day out, week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out. Soon decade in, decade out.

    The Brexit Party is there to stay in England, because Brexit is there to stay. You lot will be banging on about it in fifty years time. That’s why we’re offski.

    38% of votes in Scotland in the EU ref went to Leave, despite a more or less non-existent Leave campaign there.

    The Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the recent EU elections, admittedly a distant second but still creditable.

    Scotland is hardly a Leaver-free zone, however much Sturgeon likes to portray it.
    I love how the 38% must be respected, but the 62%, and the 45%, must be crushed.
    A false dichotomy - have I said the 62% or the 45% (?) should be crushed? No. BuT I am arguing that it needs to be recognised that Leave did receive votes in Scotland, granted not as many a percentage as in England, but still 2 in 5 Scottish voters.
    Some tactical though , just to help Brexit along and speed up Indyref2
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    Noo said:

    HYUFD said:

    +3% to the Brexit party when they've hardly been in the media, except a brief interview with Farage on one of the news stations being questioned on a 'pact', and Tice on Question Time.

    Could just be margin of error stuff.

    They are the BREXIT Party: they are *always* in the media. Day in, day out, week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out. Soon decade in, decade out.

    The Brexit Party is there to stay in England, because Brexit is there to stay. You lot will be banging on about it in fifty years time. That’s why we’re offski.

    Given latest indy poll in Scotland is 51% No 49% Remain would not be so sure about that
    On a poll like that, it's too close to call, but FWIW I think Stuart is right. For good or for ill, Scotland's going.
    If Brexit happens it probably makes Scottish independence even more unlikely. Would Scotland really vote to be outside the UK single market when it is already outside the EU's? Hmm, would be a bold step.
    Bold nothing , would be only logical thing to do. People here want to be in EU and lots don't want the union, it is the perfect match
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    Noo said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    This isn't remotely true. The SNP is a centrist party with a mix of socialist and conservative appeal. It's better to describe it as a big tent party. There would be no consensus for a radical change to the economy. Those folks are more attracted to the Greens.
    Harry is just a bitter and twisted emigrant, he just hates Scotland.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    TGOHF said:

    Noo said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    The inverse is also the case - people more than happy to see Scotland leave the UK, but horrified at the thought of the UK leaving the EU.
    This one makes more sense: some people believe in Scottish independence because they don't feel the values of Scotland are reflected in the governments elected to Westminster. The (perceived) gap in values is, for some, reflected by a similar gap between England and Europe. Put simply, some see England as being out of step with Scotland and Europe, and therefore something to separate from. You can see the coherence of that without agreeing with all or any of the premises.
    Or perhaps they are ignorant of the damage the SNP is doing to Scotland and they have it down as some leftie utopia - rather than a nation on the decline as education standards fall fast.
    LOL
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    One thing I have never grasped is why the hardest europhobes seem to also be the hardest anti Scots independence. Richard Tyndall is the honourable exception.

    Nats and the EU are high tax, high spend , puritanical, meddling, authoritarian- and socialist.
    You wouldn’t be happy to see Scotland follow an Estonian economic model?
    Under the SNP - no chance . Venezuela is their closest model. Or Cuba.
    You really are funny.
    He really is not, just a sad bitter and twisted Scot exiled in England
This discussion has been closed.