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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Before you bet on the next Lib Dem leader market just remember

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited September 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Before you bet on the next Lib Dem leader market just remember the next leader might be in another party right now

Since @joswinson became leader, the Lib Dems have gained a new MP on average every nine days.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • layers market
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Yes, it’s not an interesting market for now, but the whither the Lib Dems is very interesting indeed.
  • Netanyahu’s Fate May Depend on Israeli Arab Voters. Will They Turn Out? https://nyti.ms/32BKejw
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Vance, an alarming, if not perhaps surprising, development.
  • Nigelb said:

    Yes, it’s not an interesting market for now, but the whither the Lib Dems is very interesting indeed.

    Yeah, fortunes will be made and lost on their seat spread market. I'm not brave enough to get involved though
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    There will be more than a little joy in the Middle East. Less so in Washington London and those who like cheap petrol
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.

    I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.

    Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.

  • This market is a bit of a mugs game.

    Some of the outsiders are silly (Lamb and Cable are retiring as MPs, for example).

    Those at short odds (Moran and Umunna) are plausible but, as the article says, if things go well for the Lib Dems they could well be joined by others... and, if they go badly, they may both be out of Parliament.

    Also ties money up - Swinson could also be leader for a significant time given she is the party's second youngest MP after Moran.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Roger said:

    There will be more than a little joy in the Middle East. Less so in Washington London and those who like cheap petrol
    Good news for Scottish independence ;)
  • The next Lib Dem leader may currently be in another party, but I do wonder if the next Lib Dem PM has even been born yet ...;)

    (This is a prediction that might very rapidly be overturned by events. Or not...)
  • Foxy said:

    there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.

    I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.

    Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.

    Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    There must be a more than negligible chance Jo will be the last LD leader. With Brexit changing everything and Labour pulling ever left, the Tories ever faragewards I can see the LDs rebranding as a new centrist alliance in order to try and win power.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.

    I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.

    Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.

    Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?

    locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.

    I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    One piece of good news after another for the Lib Dems. The vast middle ground who are looking for a home that neither takes us back to the 70's nor into the arms of the proto fascists might now have a viable home
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
  • Mr. Moonshine, the most interesting leadership move was the 1922 Committee chairman, whose name escapes me, standing down from that position to stand for leader, only to, er, not run after all. Apparently he's back to being the committee's chairman.
  • @AndyJS FPT
    '...We don't know in advance which pollster will be most accurate for the next election, so using averages is the best thing to do IMO.'

    An alternative would be to look at the Council Results over the past few months.

    Normally I wouldn't set too much store by them but in the current febrile atmosphere they do have the very big advantage that they are real votes in real elections. They have been remarkably consistent - Tories steady, Labour down, LDs up.

    That feels about right.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    Really?? Have you head of a chap called Boris Alexander Johnson?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Mr. Moonshine, the most interesting leadership move was the 1922 Committee chairman, whose name escapes me, standing down from that position to stand for leader, only to, er, not run after all. Apparently he's back to being the committee's chairman.

    Graham Brady. Who was Shadow Europe Minister in Cameron's first shadcab and was his first resignation over, I think, grammar schools
  • Mr. Moonshine, the most interesting leadership move was the 1922 Committee chairman, whose name escapes me, standing down from that position to stand for leader, only to, er, not run after all. Apparently he's back to being the committee's chairman.

    Isn't there an amendment named after him?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    @AndyJS FPT
    '...We don't know in advance which pollster will be most accurate for the next election, so using averages is the best thing to do IMO.'

    An alternative would be to look at the Council Results over the past few months.

    Normally I wouldn't set too much store by them but in the current febrile atmosphere they do have the very big advantage that they are real votes in real elections. They have been remarkably consistent - Tories steady, Labour down, LDs up.

    That feels about right.

    Yes something like the Tories and labour losing a few % each to Farage from 2017 and a straight lab to LD (and green) swing seems about the mark at the moment
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.

    I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.

    Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.

    Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?

    locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.

    I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
    They were also incredibly restrained.

    Perhaps we need a new political sub-category - The Well-Behaved, as opposed to The Left Behind.
  • I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.
  • I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
  • Mr. Nashe, ah, yes. You're right.
  • I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
  • Vaguely on topic, but to lower the tone a bit. I've been struck watching recent interviews with Layla Moran at just how hot she is! Up to now I've thought geeky sexy was a man thing, but she really epitomises it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    Really?? Have you head of a chap called Boris Alexander Johnson?
    No, because there's no such person.

    There is an Alexander Boris de Pfeiffel Johnson, but not a Boris Alexander.
  • I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    Relying on Johnson for your most important policy! And he got a First?
  • Vaguely on topic, but to lower the tone a bit. I've been struck watching recent interviews with Layla Moran at just how hot she is! Up to now I've thought geeky sexy was a man thing, but she really epitomises it.

    It's a lovely Sunday morning, the sun is out and it looks like England are going to win the cricket. Then you go and spoil it.

    I'm going to walk the dog. Get that off my mind, I hope.

    Cheerio.
  • I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    Exactly.

    Tony Blair's autobiography was pretty poor as well. Maybe there's a pattern here?
  • Vaguely on topic, but to lower the tone a bit. I've been struck watching recent interviews with Layla Moran at just how hot she is! Up to now I've thought geeky sexy was a man thing, but she really epitomises it.

    It's a lovely Sunday morning, the sun is out and it looks like England are going to win the cricket. Then you go and spoil it.

    I'm going to walk the dog. Get that off my mind, I hope.

    Cheerio.
    Yes, thought it might just be me!!
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    Exactly.

    Tony Blair's autobiography was pretty poor as well. Maybe there's a pattern here?
    The one that is worth reading, perhaps surprisingly, is John Major’s. And Jonathan Powell’s The New Machiavelli is also worth a read.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.

    I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.

    Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.

    Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?

    locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.

    I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
    They were also incredibly restrained.

    Perhaps we need a new political sub-category - The Well-Behaved, as opposed to The Left Behind.
    The Self-Regarding?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    Really?? Have you head of a chap called Boris Alexander Johnson?
    Mote. Eye. Beam.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.

    I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.

    Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.

    Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?

    locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.

    I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
    They were also incredibly restrained.

    Perhaps we need a new political sub-category - The Well-Behaved, as opposed to The Left Behind.
    Well-behaved women seldom make history.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.

    But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?

    It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    The Times paid how much to deliver us that revelation?

    Dave - it worked. You could have still been PM if you'd had the balls to tell the EU "give me a decent renegotiation - or I will support Leave". Boris had the balls; you didn't. Complaining about that marks you out as a mardy arse.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    Do what Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Clarke and others are doing. To refuse to not identify as a Conservative, sit as independent ones (for now) on the same Conservative benches and fight for the whip to be restored.

    And, for the record, I didn't agree with kicking them out the party and stripping them of the whip either.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    The LibDems are welcome to him.

    Watch your back, Jo Swinson. He's coming for your job.....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.

    I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.

    Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.

    Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?

    locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.

    I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
    They were also incredibly restrained.

    Perhaps we need a new political sub-category - The Well-Behaved, as opposed to The Left Behind.
    Well-behaved women seldom make history.
    Why do you assume they are women?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    The Times paid how much to deliver us that revelation?

    Dave - it worked. You could have still been PM if you'd had the balls to tell the EU "give me a decent renegotiation - or I will support Leave". Boris had the balls; you didn't. Complaining about that marks you out as a mardy arse.

    Boris hasn’t got any sort of renegotiation yet. So the jury’s out as to whether his threats will turn out to be anything more than childish piss and wind appealing only to those who think that basing your political strategy on a cartoon character is some sort of act of genius.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    Do what Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Clarke and others are doing. To refuse to not identify as a Conservative, sit as independent ones (for now) on the same Conservative benches and fight for the whip to be restored.

    And, for the record, I didn't agree with kicking them out the party and stripping them of the whip either.
    Ken Clarke has already said publicly that he may well vote Lib Dem at the next election.

    The current Conservative party has nothing to offer anyone who prioritises the country ahead of Brexit, and will not for many years to come. Sam Gyimah has had the wit to realise that quickly. Your frustration with him comes from that, not his decision.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    Do what Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Clarke and others are doing. To refuse to not identify as a Conservative, sit as independent ones (for now) on the same Conservative benches and fight for the whip to be restored.

    And, for the record, I didn't agree with kicking them out the party and stripping them of the whip either.
    Ken Clarke has already said publicly that he may well vote Lib Dem at the next election.

    The current Conservative party has nothing to offer anyone who prioritises the country ahead of Brexit, and will not for many years to come. Sam Gyimah has had the wit to realise that quickly. Your frustration with him comes from that, not his decision.
    No, it comes from his decision. Boris Johnson might very well not last very long as Tory leader and things could change very quickly. Voting temporarily for one party is a very different proposition to upping sticks wholesale and joining and advocating for a new one. That's why Ken Clarke and others have said they might stand as independent Conservatives at the next election in the worst case.

    Sam Gyimah has let his ego get the better of him.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Cyclefree said:

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    The Times paid how much to deliver us that revelation?

    Dave - it worked. You could have still been PM if you'd had the balls to tell the EU "give me a decent renegotiation - or I will support Leave". Boris had the balls; you didn't. Complaining about that marks you out as a mardy arse.

    Boris hasn’t got any sort of renegotiation yet. So the jury’s out as to whether his threats will turn out to be anything more than childish piss and wind appealing only to those who think that basing your political strategy on a cartoon character is some sort of act of genius.
    Do you accept that if Boris delivers Brexit, he will be the political titan of our age?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    Relying on Johnson for your most important policy! And he got a First?
    But we all agreed it was (a) at Oxford and (b) primarily in Politicis, so isn't worth much.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    Do what Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Clarke and others are doing. To refuse to not identify as a Conservative, sit as independent ones (for now) on the same Conservative benches and fight for the whip to be restored.

    And, for the record, I didn't agree with kicking them out the party and stripping them of the whip either.
    Ken Clarke has already said publicly that he may well vote Lib Dem at the next election.

    The current Conservative party has nothing to offer anyone who prioritises the country ahead of Brexit, and will not for many years to come. Sam Gyimah has had the wit to realise that quickly. Your frustration with him comes from that, not his decision.
    No, it comes from his decision. Boris Johnson might very well not last very long as Tory leader and things could change very quickly. Voting temporarily for one party is a very different proposition to upping sticks wholesale and joining and advocating for a new one. That's why Ken Clarke and others have said they might stand as independent Conservatives at the next election in the worst case.

    Sam Gyimah has let his ego get the better of him.
    If Boris Johnson goes, the next leader is still going to be in thrall to the death cult. No reason to wait and see. That would just be repeating the mistakes of the Labour right.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Cyclefree said:

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    The Times paid how much to deliver us that revelation?

    Dave - it worked. You could have still been PM if you'd had the balls to tell the EU "give me a decent renegotiation - or I will support Leave". Boris had the balls; you didn't. Complaining about that marks you out as a mardy arse.

    Boris hasn’t got any sort of renegotiation yet. So the jury’s out as to whether his threats will turn out to be anything more than childish piss and wind appealing only to those who think that basing your political strategy on a cartoon character is some sort of act of genius.
    Do you accept that if Boris delivers Brexit, he will be the political titan of our age?
    Depends what he delivers
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Like a certain Mt Johnson! As per upthread.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Tabman said:

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
    The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
  • Cyclefree said:

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.

    But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?

    It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
    I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.

    Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.

    He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Yes, in all parties. A careerist tries to prolong his or her career. I dont think you can argue that this move was anything other than that. Damascene conversions are rare. Theres nothing wrong with it, per se, but anyone pretending defections are anything but career moves are having a long necked African creature
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    Do what Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Clarke and others are doing. To refuse to not identify as a Conservative, sit as independent ones (for now) on the same Conservative benches and fight for the whip to be restored.

    And, for the record, I didn't agree with kicking them out the party and stripping them of the whip either.
    Ken Clarke has already said publicly that he may well vote Lib Dem at the next election.

    The current Conservative party has nothing to offer anyone who prioritises the country ahead of Brexit, and will not for many years to come. Sam Gyimah has had the wit to realise that quickly. Your frustration with him comes from that, not his decision.
    No, it comes from his decision. Boris Johnson might very well not last very long as Tory leader and things could change very quickly. Voting temporarily for one party is a very different proposition to upping sticks wholesale and joining and advocating for a new one. That's why Ken Clarke and others have said they might stand as independent Conservatives at the next election in the worst case.

    Sam Gyimah has let his ego get the better of him.
    Ken Clarke has not said he would stand as an independent Conservative. He's said he won't be standing at all.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    Even today, the three main UK parties are not really very far apart on most issues. Yes, there are 'extremists' in all of them - from the right-wing Brexit-loving hang-'em-and-flog-'em Conservatives, to the Stalin-loving, terrorist-friendly and hating-our-friends Labour figures.

    But take a look at the 2010 or 2015 GE. The manifestos were about relatively small differences between the three parties engendered in world views that were not a million miles apart, rather than fundamental differences.

    In such a world, it is easy for voters - or even MPs - to shift from Conservative to Lib Dem, or Lib Dem to Labour, and vice versa.

    I'm not quite sure what 'convictions' you think the likes of Gyimah is betraying by moving to the Lib Dems - especially when the Conservative Pary has moved itself.

    Perhaps his 'convictions' were more stressed by remaining in Johnson's Conservative Party?
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Yes, in all parties. A careerist tries to prolong his or her career. I dont think you can argue that this move was anything other than that. Damascene conversions are rare. Theres nothing wrong with it, per se, but anyone pretending defections are anything but career moves are having a long necked African creature
    He’s looking to make sure his own distinctive views contribute to public life for as long as possible. If he wanted to advance his career he would have done the contortions that Matt Hancock has done.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
    The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
    That was more a comment on Farron on my part 🙂
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    Do what Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Clarke and others are doing. To refuse to not identify as a Conservative, sit as independent ones (for now) on the same Conservative benches and fight for the whip to be restored.

    And, for the record, I didn't agree with kicking them out the party and stripping them of the whip either.
    Ken Clarke has already said publicly that he may well vote Lib Dem at the next election.

    The current Conservative party has nothing to offer anyone who prioritises the country ahead of Brexit, and will not for many years to come. Sam Gyimah has had the wit to realise that quickly. Your frustration with him comes from that, not his decision.
    No, it comes from his decision. Boris Johnson might very well not last very long as Tory leader and things could change very quickly. Voting temporarily for one party is a very different proposition to upping sticks wholesale and joining and advocating for a new one. That's why Ken Clarke and others have said they might stand as independent Conservatives at the next election in the worst case.

    Sam Gyimah has let his ego get the better of him.
    If Boris Johnson goes, the next leader is still going to be in thrall to the death cult. No reason to wait and see. That would just be repeating the mistakes of the Labour right.
    I'm very far from convinced that follows and it very much depends on what events happen with respect to Brexit over the next few months.

    And whoever is elected leader has choices as to how they reach out to all wings of the party. Boris rather petulantly made one of his very first acts to sack anyone who hadn't publicly backed him with zero effort made to reach out and bridge across the divides.

    It says a lot about him and his character.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    Tabman said:

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
    The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
    I keep expecting the OMRLP to announce its dissolution. With Labour and the Conservatives in the state they're in, there's just too much unofficial competition.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    The Times paid how much to deliver us that revelation?

    Dave - it worked. You could have still been PM if you'd had the balls to tell the EU "give me a decent renegotiation - or I will support Leave". Boris had the balls; you didn't. Complaining about that marks you out as a mardy arse.

    Boris hasn’t got any sort of renegotiation yet. So the jury’s out as to whether his threats will turn out to be anything more than childish piss and wind appealing only to those who think that basing your political strategy on a cartoon character is some sort of act of genius.
    Do you accept that if Boris delivers Brexit, he will be the political titan of our age?
    Depends what he delivers
    Pretty much any Brexit - after all the impediments of winning the Referendum then delivering the outcome of that Referendum. Just look back to say 2015, at eveything stacked up to prevent that happening. It looked to be an impossible task.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, Ds have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    Even today, the three main UK parties are not really very far apart on most issues. Yes, there are 'extremists' in all of them - from the right-wing Brexit-loving hang-'em-and-flog-'em Conservatives, to the Stalin-loving, terrorist-friendly and hating-our-friends Labour figures.

    But take a look at the 2010 or 2015 GE. The manifestos were about relatively small differences between the three parties engendered in world views that were not a million miles apart, rather than fundamental differences.

    In such a world, it is easy for voters - or even MPs - to shift from Conservative to Lib Dem, or Lib Dem to Labour, and vice versa.

    I'm not quite sure what 'convictions' you think the likes of Gyimah is betraying by moving to the Lib Dems - especially when the Conservative Pary has moved itself.

    Perhaps his 'convictions' were more stressed by remaining in Johnson's Conservative Party?
    That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne
  • It would make absolute sense for LDs and Greens to merge. The LD membership would embrace environmental policy and I think would drag in a fair % of Labour supporters. It would, in some ways be a new radical party.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    Even today, the three main UK parties are not really very far apart on most issues. Yes, there are 'extremists' in all of them - from the right-wing Brexit-loving hang-'em-and-flog-'em Conservatives, to the Stalin-loving, terrorist-friendly and hating-our-friends Labour figures.

    But take a look at the 2010 or 2015 GE. The manifestos were about relatively small differences between the three parties engendered in world views that were not a million miles apart, rather than fundamental differences.

    In such a world, it is easy for voters - or even MPs - to shift from Conservative to Lib Dem, or Lib Dem to Labour, and vice versa.

    I'm not quite sure what 'convictions' you think the likes of Gyimah is betraying by moving to the Lib Dems - especially when the Conservative Pary has moved itself.

    Perhaps his 'convictions' were more stressed by remaining in Johnson's Conservative Party?
    Given the entryist infiltration of the conservative membership, it makes you wonder what has been said to Gyimah behind the scenes. I suspect his move may be personal
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    ydoethur said:

    Tabman said:

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
    The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
    I keep expecting the OMRLP to announce its dissolution. With Labour and the Conservatives in the state they're in, there's just too much unofficial competition.
    True enough. They could run on an original and best ticket though!
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
    The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
    That was more a comment on Farron on my part 🙂
    He is a little bit yesterdays man ;)
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    It would make absolute sense for LDs and Greens to merge. The LD membership would embrace environmental policy and I think would drag in a fair % of Labour supporters. It would, in some ways be a new radical party.

    Too many watermelon cranks.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    I must say I was looking forward to reading the extracts of David Cameron's upcoming autobiography and wanted to like it. Both him and what he had to say.

    Unfortunately, what I've seen so far is rather bitter and doesn't paint him (yet) in the most flattering of lights, and is very defensive.

    I can only hope that this is simply trailing the most dramatic and headline-grabbing quotes to maximise sales on the recommendation of his publisher, who in turn may have encouraged him to dish the dirt, but if the rest of the book is like this it won't be worth buying.

    There'll be nothing new or interesting in it.

    I know. Gove and Johnson disloyal: who knew?
    And now we hear BJ supported Brexit only in order to advance his own career.

    Honestly, he'll be telling us bears shit in the woods next.
    The Times paid how much to deliver us that revelation?

    Dave - it worked. You could have still been PM if you'd had the balls to tell the EU "give me a decent renegotiation - or I will support Leave". Boris had the balls; you didn't. Complaining about that marks you out as a mardy arse.

    Boris hasn’t got any sort of renegotiation yet. So the jury’s out as to whether his threats will turn out to be anything more than childish piss and wind appealing only to those who think that basing your political strategy on a cartoon character is some sort of act of genius.
    Do you accept that if Boris delivers Brexit, he will be the political titan of our age?
    No. As I have repeatedly said leaving the EU is merely the start of a long process. So it depends on how we withdraw and, critically, what happens next: what sort of relationship we have with the EU, how we treat EU citizens who have made their home here, what sort of relationship with the US, with the rest of the world, what kind of country we become etc.

    I see no evidence of any sort of long-term strategy or thought about any of these issues but quite a lot of worrying signs.

    Any fool can destroy things. Creating something better is very much harder.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Yes, in all parties. A careerist tries to prolong his or her career. I dont think you can argue that this move was anything other than that. Damascene conversions are rare. Theres nothing wrong with it, per se, but anyone pretending defections are anything but career moves are having a long necked African creature
    He’s looking to make sure his own distinctive views contribute to public life for as long as possible. If he wanted to advance his career he would have done the contortions that Matt Hancock has done.
    Respectfully, I disagree.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
    The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
    That was more a comment on Farron on my part 🙂
    He is a little bit yesterdays man ;)
    A little bit?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?

    Who cares?
    The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
    That was more a comment on Farron on my part 🙂
    He is a little bit yesterdays man ;)
    A little bit?
    I'm being polite for once
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
    Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
    Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
    Such as?

  • That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne

    I'd argue that the changes in the Conservative and Labour parties mean that the people who care most about 'staying in the job' are those who remain in a party that is fundamentally diverging from their core beliefs.

    I cannot say if that's the case for Gyimah - but it wouldn't surprise me. As one example, remember that the Conservatives are now a screw-business party.
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    This should be a lesson to my party, Gyimahs local association never wanted him as their candidate and had never warmed to him as he was parachuted into a safe seat.. Most will be glad to see the back of him and its likely he will loose his seat at the next election even if chosen as the LD candidate. For me its good riddence.

    Ken Clarke on the other hand I am genuinely sorry to see out of the party, I am a committed brexiteer and certainly don't agree with him on Europe but he voted for the WA and for us to leave and has been a lifelong Tory and the party owes him a great deal of respect at least.

    Of the 21 who lost the whip all will are either standing down or will loose their seat at the next election... Unless anyone feels some may hang on as indy or LDs?
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    This should be a lesson to my party, Gyimahs local association never wanted him as their candidate and had never warmed to him as he was parachuted into a safe seat.. Most will be glad to see the back of him and its likely he will loose his seat at the next election even if chosen as the LD candidate. For me its good riddence.

    Ken Clarke on the other hand I am genuinely sorry to see out of the party, I am a committed brexiteer and certainly don't agree with him on Europe but he voted for the WA and for us to leave and has been a lifelong Tory and the party owes him a great deal of respect at least.

    Of the 21 who lost the whip all will are either standing down or will loose their seat at the next election... Unless anyone feels some may hang on as indy or LDs?
    It's "lose". "Loose" is the opposite of tight.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.

    But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?

    It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
    I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.

    Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.

    He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.

    I accept you haven’t.

    Others on this forum have. I know little about Gmiyah and care even less. But the Tories are making themselves distinctly unappealing to anyone who does not think that Farage is God’s gift to the world. To my mind - as an outsider - they look and feel and talk like the Brexit party. They may as well join them.

    I think it a great shame that they have done this and expelled people like Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart. It is doing themselves and the country a disservice. But there we are. I am only one voter. They don’t want my vote and they’re not going to get it.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Tabman said:

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
    Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
    Such as?
    Issuing random lists of names of people who's phone messages he wants a gander at
  • Mr. Gabs, whilst I'd like Corbyn's Labour to fall behind the Lib Dems, that's still a long way off from being likely.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Cyclefree said:

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
    To which I say, what an odd view. Would you rather a situation where no major political party made a serious attempt to enact the result of a referendum that won more votes than any electoral outcome in British history?

    Don’t you realise how dangerous it would be for politics overall, if the Tory party adopted a similar Brexit platform to either the Lib Dems (overturn the vote - aka Gyimah) or Labour (ignore it through never ending extension - aka Hunt)?

    Political moderates of all stripes should be hoping beyond hope that Boris gets his Brexit deal done and over the line, or failing that executes as orderly an exit along WTO terms as possible. Because the alternative is an even harder polarisation of the electorate to the fringes, with moves likely thereafter into far more controversial territory than EU membership.

    Right now it is the likes of Gyimah that I view as being the dangerous political extremists, for being so willing to dump on the democratic process because they were upset with the outcome. I hope this ex Goldman’s boy is happy with his likely short lived flirtation with the Liberal “Democrats”.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Gabs2 said:

    Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.

    She's busy recruiting Tory MPs. By the end of the week it's quite possible that a quarter of the Lib Dem parliamentary representation will be former Tories
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Gabs2 said:

    Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.

    Is that the aim of Jo?
    I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    This should be a lesson to my party, Gyimahs local association never wanted him as their candidate and had never warmed to him as he was parachuted into a safe seat.. Most will be glad to see the back of him and its likely he will loose his seat at the next election even if chosen as the LD candidate. For me its good riddence.

    Ken Clarke on the other hand I am genuinely sorry to see out of the party, I am a committed brexiteer and certainly don't agree with him on Europe but he voted for the WA and for us to leave and has been a lifelong Tory and the party owes him a great deal of respect at least.

    Of the 21 who lost the whip all will are either standing down or will loose their seat at the next election... Unless anyone feels some may hang on as indy or LDs?
    I don't see any hanging on. In a couple of places they might split the vote to let an opponent in, but even that is unlikely. Their opinion of themselves is far higher than that held of them by their voters....
  • moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    This should be a lesson to my party, Gyimahs local association never wanted him as their candidate and had never warmed to him as he was parachuted into a safe seat.. Most will be glad to see the back of him and its likely he will loose his seat at the next election even if chosen as the LD candidate. For me its good riddence.

    Ken Clarke on the other hand I am genuinely sorry to see out of the party, I am a committed brexiteer and certainly don't agree with him on Europe but he voted for the WA and for us to leave and has been a lifelong Tory and the party owes him a great deal of respect at least.

    Of the 21 who lost the whip all will are either standing down or will loose their seat at the next election... Unless anyone feels some may hang on as indy or LDs?
    Like Chuka they may be rewarded with winnable seats if they join the LDs. I don't know how you can change party over essentially one issue. If I was an LD id be wary of an influx of MPs who don't share their values on many issues.
  • PaulM said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.

    She's busy recruiting Tory MPs. By the end of the week it's quite possible that a quarter of the Lib Dem parliamentary representation will be former Tories
    If only some Labour MPs defected too ;-)
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    PaulM said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.

    She's busy recruiting Tory MPs. By the end of the week it's quite possible that a quarter of the Lib Dem parliamentary representation will be former Tories
    They have mainly been on the Tory left, and she has recruited Labour talents like Umunna and Berger. People that stick up for Labour values on internationalism, antiracism and opposition to terrorism far better than the Labour leadership.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Gabs2 said:

    Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.

    Occipital Loberal Democrats - responsible for vision?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    houndtang said:

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    This should be a lesson to my party, Gyimahs local association never wanted him as their candidate and had never warmed to him as he was parachuted into a safe seat.. Most will be glad to see the back of him and its likely he will loose his seat at the next election even if chosen as the LD candidate. For me its good riddence.

    Ken Clarke on the other hand I am genuinely sorry to see out of the party, I am a committed brexiteer and certainly don't agree with him on Europe but he voted for the WA and for us to leave and has been a lifelong Tory and the party owes him a great deal of respect at least.

    Of the 21 who lost the whip all will are either standing down or will loose their seat at the next election... Unless anyone feels some may hang on as indy or LDs?
    Like Chuka they may be rewarded with winnable seats if they join the LDs. I don't know how you can change party over essentially one issue. If I was an LD id be wary of an influx of MPs who don't share their values on many issues.
    Chuka I think will be disappointed by coming third in Westminster
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    moonshine said:

    Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade

    I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.

    He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
    What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
    They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
    And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
    Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions.
    I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps.
    And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
    A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
    Yes, in all parties. A careerist tries to prolong his or her career. I dont think you can argue that this move was anything other than that. Damascene conversions are rare. Theres nothing wrong with it, per se, but anyone pretending defections are anything but career moves are having a long necked African creature
    He’s looking to make sure his own distinctive views contribute to public life for as long as possible. If he wanted to advance his career he would have done the contortions that Matt Hancock has done.
    But it remains to be seen how long Matt Hancock's career will last!
This discussion has been closed.