Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I disagree. "That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
The problem is that Brexit was sold on a false prospectus. You can’t make a false prospectus true.
Maybe but the famous "ballot paper question" made no mention of any prospectus. It just said stay or go.
If people voted go on this basis then they were either informed and understood that no deal was a real possibility and believed that that was better than staying in; or they were thick as pigshit and are genuinely surprised and distressed that we are very likely about to leave with no deal; or they paid insufficient attention to the possibility that we could leave with no deal and don't care one way or another.
The ballot paper has to be understood in the context of the way it was argued for. To say otherwise is as literalistic as to say that the referendum was an advisory vote.
Yes and it was argued for by both sides as meaning leaving the Single Market. Explicitly by both Leave and Remain.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I disagree. "That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.
After Leave won, our PM agreed a deal with the EU that a majority of MPs voted against three times. That is the disgrace
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on on here are prepared to acknowledge.
They are racists. ALL of them.
Everyone who wrote approvingly of the Merkel poster certainly are. But some who just lined up behind Farage and his racist posters are just thick as planks
Who has written approvingly of the Merkel poster?!
It's obviously crude, offensive, and unfunny.
But the only people who are posting it are angry Remainers, thereby disseminating it around the Twitter-world, and doing exactly what Leave.EU want. Ironic.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Maybe, maybe not. Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Maybe, maybe not. Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.
So there are two questions.
What will it take for the "We have forebodings but Boris must be given a chance to get a deal" wing to act?
If Boris no-deals, he'll be popular until it goes wrong. What does he do then?
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.
It's worse than that. Yes they're not denying the "broad thrust", but they're not even denying the particular language quoted - "we don't recognise these words" etc etc.
One can only conclude Merkel said it, and meant it.
Meanwhile the £ is now more than a cent down on the day, and still falling.
Thanks Richard. Two quotes though, I think you will agree, is hardly a deluge of material, and even then this is pretty ambiguous stuff. No one fought for Leave with an unambiguous message that we might, or even should, leave without a deal. "Norway" as a model was often discussed.
No but they were the two immediate that I had seen before. There is also a Guardian news item where he was attacked by Soubry for saying we would leave the Customs Union and Single Market.
It was more people like me and Dan Hannan who confuaed the picture by claiming - as I still do - that the very best end point would be in the EEA as part of the SM. But the Norway option was comprehensively trashed as a suggsstion by both sides during the campaign.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I disagree. "That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.
After Leave won, our PM agreed a deal with the EU that a majority of MPs voted against three times. That is the disgrace
At this point the most sensible, humble, uniting and courageous thing to do would be to put TM's deal to parliament again and all parties vote for it in huge numbers.
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.
I sense that the EU don't want to have anything to do with Johnson. They know even better than the British what type of person they're dealing with. They are at a point where they just want him to disappear. If the UK puts up someone else they'll maybe talk again otherwise they just want him to fuck off. I've worked with the Germans many times. They are serious people. Fly by night opportunists are a breed they won't touch with a barge pole
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
I think it's unfair to tar all "Brexiteers" with behaviour and attitude of Leave.EU. After all, even Farage found Aaron Banks too unpleasant to work with long term.
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on on here are prepared to acknowledge.
They are racists. ALL of them.
Everyone who wrote approvingly of the Merkel poster certainly are. But some who just lined up behind Farage and his racist posters are just thick as planks
Who has written approvingly of the Merkel poster?!
It's obviously crude, offensive, and unfunny.
But the only people who are posting it are angry Remainers, thereby disseminating it around the Twitter-world, and doing exactly what Leave.EU want. Ironic.
Leave.EU have 271,000 twitter followers. It was widely seen by the Brexit xenophobes long before the Remainers got hold of it.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I disagree. "That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.
After Leave won, our PM agreed a deal with the EU that a majority of MPs voted against three times. That is the disgrace
At this point the most sensible, humble, uniting and courageous thing to do would be to put TM's deal to parliament again and all parties vote for it in huge numbers.
Merkel has made that impossible with her quotes. No MP could sign up for the WA, now, because they fear that the EU could very easily trap us in the backstop.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.
"To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately'," the memo reads."
Has a sort of synchronisity to it, doesn't it? To marginalise UKIP in 2015, Dave offered the referendum.
To marginalise the Brexit Party in 2019/20 Boris is prepared to crash the country out of the EU without a deal.
From start to finish, the whole thing has been about what is likely to keep the Tories in power, never mind if the country has to go down the pan to ensure it.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The Leave campaign explicitly and angrily disavowed the idea of a no deal Brexit. The chaos and disruption that would cause has no mandate.
What was on the ballot paper?
Then you must accept that the referendum was an advisory vote.
No it was an in principle decision, and an instruction to the government to sort out the details.
"To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately'," the memo reads."
Has a sort of synchronisity to it, doesn't it? To marginalise UKIP in 2015, Dave offered the referendum.
To marginalise the Brexit Party in 2019/20 Boris is prepared to crash the country out of the EU without a deal.
From start to finish, the whole thing has been about what is likely to keep the Tories in power, never mind if the country has to go down the pan to ensure it.
Isn’t Cummings more interested in getting Brexit done?
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Maybe, maybe not. Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
The third meaningful vote was lost by 58. So if the 28 Spartan pro-Brexit MPs and the 10 DUP Pro-Brexit MPs who voted against it had voted for it, then it would have passed with a majority of 18.
Pro-Brexit MPs prevented Brexit by voting against Brexit.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
A major issue that the UK faces is that so much of its business is highly leveraged and owned abroad. The UK continually depends on new investment from foreigners. All it takes for them to sit ion their hands and the economy starts to fold. Note that as with Thomas Cook this business is owned by the Chinese.
Whatever the outcome of Brexit BJ's reputation is already shot internationally. The country will sit around waiting for a decent leader while it slowly bleeds jobs and wealth. Neither a general election or leaving the EU will solve anything. I guess we are in for a tough few months maybe years.
"To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately'," the memo reads."
Has a sort of synchronisity to it, doesn't it? To marginalise UKIP in 2015, Dave offered the referendum.
To marginalise the Brexit Party in 2019/20 Boris is prepared to crash the country out of the EU without a deal.
From start to finish, the whole thing has been about what is likely to keep the Tories in power, never mind if the country has to go down the pan to ensure it.
And they still don't get the point that it's the Tory party that is going down the pan.
No but they were the two immediate that I had seen before. There is also a Guardian news item where he was attacked by Soubry for saying we would leave the Customs Union and Single Market.
It was more people like me and Dan Hannan who confuaed the picture by claiming - as I still do - that the very best end point would be in the EEA as part of the SM. But the Norway option was comprehensively trashed as a suggsstion by both sides during the campaign.
To be honest, the silencing of moderation has been the biggest single tragedy. Back in early 2016 I wanted us to rejoin EFTA after we had left the EU and revitalise that organisation as a free trading counterweight to the EU. I think you pretty much agreed.
There were and have been any number of possible alternatives which "could" have been sold to the electorate as a viable compromise but the siren voices on both sides have propelled us toward more extreme outcomes.
As an example, I'm not huge on revoking A50 (I would if we immediately re-applied and started a fresh negotiation) but I see no merit in economic self-harm for a romanticised illusion of independence and "control". Leaving with No Deal will do nothing in and of itself to mitigate the factors which led to the 2016 result - the failure of Governments over 40 years to tackle the underlying societal issues which have brought us to this point means there's huge amounts of blame to throw around but we need to move past it and start looking for solutions and I'm afraid neither Johnson nor Corbyn have anything to offer in that regard.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Looks about right to me.
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity. Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favour
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.
Slicking through perhaps the only live example of a remain voting Labour MP that went (More or less) along with May's Brexit plans, Caroline Flint seems to have much more heat from #FBPE people in her timeline than Brexiteers.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favour
Not before the vast majority of Conservative Leaver MPs had lined up to trash it.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Looks about right to me.
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity. Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.
Brexit was a stupid idea, done stupidly. It's now a corpse. We can cling to the corpse or we can bury it.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
Both sides benefit because no.10 gets to play tough by spinning the wording and the EU get to sigh magisterially and talk about how not playing the blame game (whilst playing it) by protesting the tone of no.10 even as the point - that talks are going nowhere - is precisely what we've heard before.
It suits both sides to get on their high horse and posture.
I find a deep contradiction in the remainer position.
If they do eventually succeed in overturning the referendum result before it is implemented they must know that the UK will be an awful and uncooperative member of the EU forever on the periphery. There would be no political gain for any PM to be anything else.
And I assume their deeper wish would be for the UK to be in the centre of the project without the opt-outs, with the Euro etc etc. The only way that will ever happen is if the UK comes out without a deal and their predictions are proved correct. The UK would readily vote to rejoin in those circumstances.
Which leads me to the conclusion that remainers are actually terrified of the UK making a success of leaving, without the sky falling in as predicted and consequently never rejoining.
Get a fantastic deal and leave (perhaps tweaked EEA/EFTA?) Get a shit deal and leave 2nd ref and Remain Bubonic Plague No Deal Bubonic Plague and Alien Attack Revoke
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favour
Not before the vast majority of Conservative Leaver MPs had lined up to trash it.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
I agree. It shames Britain.
Aaron Banks does not represent Britain.
There are shameful people in any country
But it is what many foreigners will see of Britain. And they also see a British PM who appears to be dancing to the tune being played by Arron Banks and Nigel Farage.
So, yes, it shames Britain in the same way that thuggish violent English football fans shamed English football in the 1980's.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Looks about right to me.
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity. Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.
It's not impossible that a future government, free of the all-consuming crisis of Brexit, will do various things to solve the housing crisis, bring jobs to those areas left behind and distribute free apple pie. It might not happen, granted, but I think it's marginally more likely if we revoke then if we crash the economy with a no deal exit and still have to sort out our trading relationship with the EU.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Looks about right to me.
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity. Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.
Brexit was a stupid idea, done stupidly. It's now a corpse. We can cling to the corpse or we can bury it.
So it has something in common with revoke, which is also a stupid idea.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.
I wasnt suggesting it was or was not a correct view. That doesn't matter in respect of if it is the only form, even if only because of our red lines which got harder when Boris became PM, then talking achieved nothing and they knew that. Why play this game?
Blame game, that's why. Boris and co are still worse, but the sanctimony from the EU is unwarranted.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Looks about right to me.
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity. Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.
Brexit was a stupid idea, done stupidly. It's now a corpse. We can cling to the corpse or we can bury it.
I find a deep contradiction in the remainer position.
If they do eventually succeed in overturning the referendum result before it is implemented they must know that the UK will be an awful and uncooperative member of the EU forever on the periphery. There would be no political gain for any PM to be anything else.
And I assume their deeper wish would be for the UK to be in the centre of the project without the opt-outs, with the Euro etc etc. The only way that will ever happen is if the UK comes out without a deal and their predictions are proved correct. The UK would readily vote to rejoin in those circumstances.
Which leads me to the conclusion that remainers are actually terrified of the UK making a success of leaving, without the sky falling in as predicted and consequently never rejoining.
This is obviously true. Remainers need us to Remain before we ever Leave. The same goes for Federalists in the EU. Their best outcome is for Britain to recant and return, without ever quitting.
Because, if we quit, there is a likelihood in the medium/long term that we will prosper. And that puts a bomb under The Project.
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
I agree. It shames Britain.
Aaron Banks does not represent Britain.
There are shameful people in any country
But it is what many foreigners will see of Britain. And they also see a British PM who appears to be dancing to the tune being played by Arron Banks and Nigel Farage.
So, yes, it shames Britain in the same way that thuggish violent English football fans shamed English football in the 1980's.
Neither shame me - every country in the world has a collection of bampots and morons.
Get a fantastic deal and leave (perhaps tweaked EEA/EFTA?) JEZZA Get a shit deal and leave JESTER 2nd ref and Remain JEZZA Bubonic Plague TORY SWINSON/JESTER No Deal TORY SWINSON/JESTER Bubonic Plague and Alien Attack AS NO DEAL Revoke TORY SWINSON
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Maybe, maybe not. Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
The third meaningful vote was lost by 58. So if the 28 Spartan pro-Brexit MPs and the 10 DUP Pro-Brexit MPs who voted against it had voted for it, then it would have passed with a majority of 18.
Pro-Brexit MPs prevented Brexit by voting against Brexit.
No, we only had a third vote because the first two didn’t pass you see
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.
It's worse than that. Yes they're not denying the "broad thrust", but they're not even denying the particular language quoted - "we don't recognise these words" etc etc.
One can only conclude Merkel said it, and meant it.
Meanwhile the £ is now more than a cent down on the day, and still falling.
Why bother seeking to convince people who will never be convinced? Merkel's electorate is in Germany, not the UK.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.
They are NOT the UK's red lines. They are May's red lines.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
There has never been a group of so rampantly deluded people in the history of this country. A few days ago they were crawling out of their skin in delight that the EU was about to back Boris's "deal" leaving Remainers high and dry. They were whooping with delight at something they had basically convinced themselves about. It went on for a few hours. It's actually pretty fascinating to watch the mass delusion mushroom, spread, wither and rot. Brexit will forever be a case study of speedy credulity, rank gullibility, and idiotic stridency. The bulletproof self confidence of those who keep getting it wrong over and over again is like the herald of a new kind of art entirely: an epic public show of self-gaslighting idiocy. It needs a better name than Brexit. I'll open the bidding at "Manifest Density"
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?
Talk me through that one again?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favour
Not before the vast majority of Conservative Leaver MPs had lined up to trash it.
The defence of the MPs elected on a pledge to deliver Brexit voting three times against an agreement between our PM and the EU ‘because the nasty people weren’t voting for it’ is beyond absurd.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.
They are NOT the UK's red lines. They are May's red lines.
They remain the current government's. Hence they are the UK's.
I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
I agree. It shames Britain.
Aaron Banks does not represent Britain.
There are shameful people in any country
But it is what many foreigners will see of Britain. And they also see a British PM who appears to be dancing to the tune being played by Arron Banks and Nigel Farage.
So, yes, it shames Britain in the same way that thuggish violent English football fans shamed English football in the 1980's.
Neither shame me - every country in the world has a collection of bampots and morons.
But in most countries they are to be found on the political fringes - in the UK they are to be found in the Cabinet.
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!
Just ignore the referendum result.
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.
So there are two questions.
What will it take for the "We have forebodings but Boris must be given a chance to get a deal" wing to act?
If Boris no-deals, he'll be popular until it goes wrong. What does he do then?
We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
No. Ireland being divided isn't a problem, Parliament being divided is.
If Boris comes back with a thumping majority the quislings sabotaging the UKs negotiations become impotent. He can and should then say to Varadkar and von der Leyden (sp?) it is time for the EU and UK to speak as equals or where shall the customs border posts be built on the Irish border?
Revoke: democratically disastrous Rereferend: highly divisive and a recognition of failure by the political class Leave with a deal: discredited Leave without a deal: highly disruptive, chaotic and highly divisive.
I find a deep contradiction in the remainer position.
If they do eventually succeed in overturning the referendum result before it is implemented they must know that the UK will be an awful and uncooperative member of the EU forever on the periphery. There would be no political gain for any PM to be anything else.
And I assume their deeper wish would be for the UK to be in the centre of the project without the opt-outs, with the Euro etc etc. The only way that will ever happen is if the UK comes out without a deal and their predictions are proved correct. The UK would readily vote to rejoin in those circumstances.
Which leads me to the conclusion that remainers are actually terrified of the UK making a success of leaving, without the sky falling in as predicted and consequently never rejoining.
This is obviously true. Remainers need us to Remain before we ever Leave. The same goes for Federalists in the EU. Their best outcome is for Britain to recant and return, without ever quitting.
Because, if we quit, there is a likelihood in the medium/long term that we will prosper. And that puts a bomb under The Project.
Of course it could be true that the remainers do not want the country to suffer the damage that they believe the country will suffer from Brexit and therefore while a chaotic Brexit might be best for their long term aims they think the costs of Brexit are too high to justify that long term gain. Or to put it another way, it might not be a good idea for all leavers to assume that the remainers are as unconcerned about the damage being done to the UK as they are.
We are seeing what happens when the establishment won’t implement the result of a democratic vote.
In the case of that ghastly Merkel poster I would say we are seeing what happens when racists are encouraged to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.
Revoke: democratically disastrous Rereferend: highly divisive and a recognition of failure by the political class Leave with a deal: discredited Leave without a deal: highly disruptive, chaotic and highly divisive.
Pick your preferred disaster.
Leave with a deal would get the whole thing over with, and the fact it is currently unfashionable would be completely forgotten very quickly if it were done.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
There has never been a group of so rampantly deluded people in the history of this country. A few days ago they were crawling out of their skin in delight that the EU was about to back Boris's "deal" leaving Remainers high and dry. They were whooping with delight at something they had basically convinced themselves about. It went on for a few hours. It's actually pretty fascinating to watch the mass delusion mushroom, spread, wither and rot. Brexit will forever be a case study of speedy credulity, rank gullibility, and idiotic stridency. The bulletproof self confidence of those who keep getting it wrong over and over again is like the herald of a new kind of art entirely: an epic public show of self-gaslighting idiocy. It needs a better name than Brexit. I'll open the bidding at "Manifest Density"
Where do you place the voters who fell for the vast number of GE 2017 candidates - subsequently MPs - saying they would implement Brexit? Was that rank gullibility on their part?
We are seeing what happens when the establishment won’t implement the result of a democratic vote.
In the case of that ghastly Merkel poster I would say we are seeing what happens when racists are encouraged to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.
Synthesis: We are seeing what happens when the establishment encourages racists to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.
We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
No. Ireland being divided isn't a problem, Parliament being divided is.
If Boris comes back with a thumping majority the quislings sabotaging the UKs negotiations become impotent. He can and should then say to Varadkar and von der Leyden (sp?) it is time for the EU and UK to speak as equals or where shall the customs border posts be built on the Irish border?
Is Brexit really worth the reurn of the Troubles for the next thirty years. Bombs in London, Birmingham etc.
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Maybe, maybe not. Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
The third meaningful vote was lost by 58. So if the 28 Spartan pro-Brexit MPs and the 10 DUP Pro-Brexit MPs who voted against it had voted for it, then it would have passed with a majority of 18.
Pro-Brexit MPs prevented Brexit by voting against Brexit.
No, we only had a third vote because the first two didn’t pass you see
We are seeing what happens when the establishment won’t implement the result of a democratic vote.
In the case of that ghastly Merkel poster I would say we are seeing what happens when racists are encouraged to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.
People are doubling down because the result has not been implemented
Comments
"That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.
"The Old Vic’s gender-neutral toilets leaves women worse off
Sarah Ditum"
(£)
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/the-old-vics-gender-neutral-toilets-leaves-women-worse-off/
It's obviously crude, offensive, and unfunny.
But the only people who are posting it are angry Remainers, thereby disseminating it around the Twitter-world, and doing exactly what Leave.EU want. Ironic.
Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
What will it take for the "We have forebodings but Boris must be given a chance to get a deal" wing to act?
If Boris no-deals, he'll be popular until it goes wrong. What does he do then?
One can only conclude Merkel said it, and meant it.
Meanwhile the £ is now more than a cent down on the day, and still falling.
It was more people like me and Dan Hannan who confuaed the picture by claiming - as I still do - that the very best end point would be in the EEA as part of the SM. But the Norway option was comprehensively trashed as a suggsstion by both sides during the campaign.
All trust has gone.
Something scary this way comes.
"To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately'," the memo reads."
Has a sort of synchronisity to it, doesn't it? To marginalise UKIP in 2015, Dave offered the referendum.
To marginalise the Brexit Party in 2019/20 Boris is prepared to crash the country out of the EU without a deal.
From start to finish, the whole thing has been about what is likely to keep the Tories in power, never mind if the country has to go down the pan to ensure it.
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1180143800997597185
In order of preference this is how I see the options
Best
Fully in with Euro Schengen etc
Out with no deal and reset our relationships
Out with a deal
Revoke
Worst
How do others position the options?
(A question which could and should have been asked throughout this debacle, from day one)
Pro-Brexit MPs prevented Brexit by voting against Brexit.
Best
EFTA/EEA
Leave with a deal
Leave with No Deal
Revoke
Worst
There are shameful people in any country
A major issue that the UK faces is that so much of its business is highly leveraged and owned abroad. The UK continually depends on new investment from foreigners. All it takes for them to sit ion their hands and the economy starts to fold. Note that as with Thomas Cook this business is owned by the Chinese.
Whatever the outcome of Brexit BJ's reputation is already shot internationally. The country will sit around waiting for a decent leader while it slowly bleeds jobs and wealth. Neither a general election or leaving the EU will solve anything. I guess we are in for a tough few months maybe years.
There were and have been any number of possible alternatives which "could" have been sold to the electorate as a viable compromise but the siren voices on both sides have propelled us toward more extreme outcomes.
As an example, I'm not huge on revoking A50 (I would if we immediately re-applied and started a fresh negotiation) but I see no merit in economic self-harm for a romanticised illusion of independence and "control". Leaving with No Deal will do nothing in and of itself to mitigate the factors which led to the 2016 result - the failure of Governments over 40 years to tackle the underlying societal issues which have brought us to this point means there's huge amounts of blame to throw around but we need to move past it and start looking for solutions and I'm afraid neither Johnson nor Corbyn have anything to offer in that regard.
Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.
Revoke
Revoke
Revoke
.
.
.
Referendum
.
Soft Brexit
.
.
May's deal
.
.
.
.
.
Nuclear annihilation
No Deal
>>Worst<<
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
It suits both sides to get on their high horse and posture.
If they do eventually succeed in overturning the referendum result before it is implemented they must know that the UK will be an awful and uncooperative member of the EU forever on the periphery. There would be no political gain for any PM to be anything else.
And I assume their deeper wish would be for the UK to be in the centre of the project without the opt-outs, with the Euro etc etc. The only way that will ever happen is if the UK comes out without a deal and their predictions are proved correct. The UK would readily vote to rejoin in those circumstances.
Which leads me to the conclusion that remainers are actually terrified of the UK making a success of leaving, without the sky falling in as predicted and consequently never rejoining.
BEST
Get a fantastic deal and leave (perhaps tweaked EEA/EFTA?)
Get a shit deal and leave
2nd ref and Remain
Bubonic Plague
No Deal
Bubonic Plague and Alien Attack
Revoke
WORST
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49971853
So, yes, it shames Britain in the same way that thuggish violent English football fans shamed English football in the 1980's.
Aiiiii. And now it's fucking raining again.
To work. To lose myself.
Cameron fucked it, Leave fucked it, the ERG fucked it, May really fucked it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the above is what Johnson/Cummings have in mind, albeit needing a majority to deliver.
However our leaders keep opening the Pandora Box marked “xenophobic populism”, thereby tarnishing the whole endeavour.
I can’t be arsed supporting race-baiters and economic dunces. I’ll never figure out why some on here do.
Blame game, that's why. Boris and co are still worse, but the sanctimony from the EU is unwarranted.
Because, if we quit, there is a likelihood in the medium/long term that we will prosper. And that puts a bomb under The Project.
Replace with Promoted
It does not, however, represent everyone who voted to Leave. Any more than Swinson's revocation policy is what the whole Remain electorate supports.
Brexit will forever be a case study of speedy credulity, rank gullibility, and idiotic stridency. The bulletproof self confidence of those who keep getting it wrong over and over again is like the herald of a new kind of art entirely: an epic public show of self-gaslighting idiocy. It needs a better name than Brexit. I'll open the bidding at "Manifest Density"
It was Gove's job for it not to go wrong.
If Boris comes back with a thumping majority the quislings sabotaging the UKs negotiations become impotent. He can and should then say to Varadkar and von der Leyden (sp?) it is time for the EU and UK to speak as equals or where shall the customs border posts be built on the Irish border?
Revoke: democratically disastrous
Rereferend: highly divisive and a recognition of failure by the political class
Leave with a deal: discredited
Leave without a deal: highly disruptive, chaotic and highly divisive.
Pick your preferred disaster.
Lol. Labour are going down
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-7531373/Ben-Stokes-crowns-incredible-summer-PCA-Players-Player-Year-award.html
We are seeing what happens when the establishment encourages racists to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0009696/bbc-news-at-one-08102019
(listen after about 9 mins though all of it's interesting)
Specialist Subject: 'the bleeding obvious'
Don't tell me, leavers don't understand the tinderbox waiting to ignite at the sight of even a single customs officer.
It is complete horlicks and just the Brexit equivalent of shroud waving.