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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservatives’ election chances. Ten Seats To Watch

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservatives’ election chances. Ten Seats To Watch

And they’re off.  The Conservatives have raced into an early lead in the polls and will be looking to secure an overall majority. Will they do it? Here are ten seats that will be illustrative of how they will do.  

Read the full story here


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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    FPT, Charles reminds me of one of those old style BBC interviewers who politely asks the PM if he has anything he would like to share with the British public at this time...
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    StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    edited November 2019
    FPT

    Streeter said:

    Charles said:

    Streeter said:

    Charles said:

    The old “guilty until proven innocent” line i see
    What has he got to hide?
    Moving on to smears.

    So uplifting
    I didn’t smear him. I simply asked what he has to hide. If the answer is ‘nothing’ he has the power to release the report.

    If he chooses not to it doesn’t take Coleen Rooney’s powers to deduce his motive.
    Nor yours.
    Nor, indeed, yours or more to the point, Johnson’s.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,081
    edited November 2019
    Still mildly shocking to see the extent to which SLab has withered in those 2 Scottish constituencies.

    Naturally the Union & Brexit will be factors in East Ren, but in 2017 the SLab candidate (ex head of Better Together, anti Jezza and centrist Unionist SLab to the core) got humped. It'll be an interesting bellwether for the two competing priorities.
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    Nigelb said:

    FPT, Charles reminds me of one of those old style BBC interviewers who politely asks the PM if he has anything he would like to share with the British public at this time...

    Charles is on the telly? Good lord, whatever next?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    Nigelb said:

    FPT, Charles reminds me of one of those old style BBC interviewers who politely asks the PM if he has anything he would like to share with the British public at this time...

    Charles is on the telly? Good lord, whatever next?
    Sadly, I don't think so.
    It was more his 1950s habit of deference to authority.
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    Nigelb said:

    FPT, Charles reminds me of one of those old style BBC interviewers who politely asks the PM if he has anything he would like to share with the British public at this time...

    He didn't get where he is today by not deferring to the hierarchical structures of this country (or more precisely several centuries of ancestors deferring to the hierarchical structures of this country).
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    Cracking article, Alistair.

    I note that the only one of the above likely to report fairly early on is Wrexham... the two Scottish constituencies maybe an hour or so later, and most of the rest around 4am.
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    Nigelb said:

    FPT, Charles reminds me of one of those old style BBC interviewers who politely asks the PM if he has anything he would like to share with the British public at this time...

    He didn't get where he is today by not deferring to the hierarchical structures of this country (or more precisely several centuries of ancestors deferring to the hierarchical structures of this country).
    Was Charles at school with Boris? Everyone else seems to have been.
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    GIN1138 said:
    As Matt Chorley's graph shows, Labour added about 12 points between this point in the campaign last time and the final result (or about 10 up to YouGov's final poll). It's a repeat of that rise - or lack of it - which will be the deciding factor
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited November 2019
    Great Grimsby is also a seat to watch. On the Saxon Shore, it's been pretty close between Labour and Conservative in 2010 (maj: 2.2%) and 2017 (7.2%), but UKIP took 25% of the vote in 2015 helping Labour to a 13.5% majority (or else they were big fans of Ed Miliband!)

    It will be a good test of the extent to which the Brexit Party will take votes that might deprive the Conservatives of seats.

    Edit: The BestForBritain MRP has the Brexit Party on nearly 25% of the vote in this seat, but Labour/Tory still very close.
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    In London I think somewhere like Wimbledon is more of an indicator than seats where the result will be heavily affected by high profile defectors (City, Kensington, Finchley) or where the LDs should win anyway (Richmond). Wimbledon is an excellent test of the ability of the LDs to 'borrow' Labour votes in a seat with Remain leanings.
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    camelcamel Posts: 815
    Don Valley. A semi-rural constituency dotted with old-style socialist pit villages. There's something for everyone from the furthest left of the labour movement to the far right. (except the LibDems - this is possibly t least LibDemmy constituency in the UK),

    I think conservative progress there will be rolled back by the BXP if they stand and campaign hard. Add in Flint's brexity charm and name recognition and she's surely home and dry with an increased majority, UNS notwithstanding.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Nigelb said:

    Cracking article, Alistair.

    I note that the only one of the above likely to report fairly early on is Wrexham... the two Scottish constituencies maybe an hour or so later, and most of the rest around 4am.

    Wrexham is a good bellwether, as it is in cluster of 4 similar tight NE Wales marginals (Clwyd S, Alyn & Deeside, Delyn are the others). Wrexham is the easiest to take. All the Welsh seats report early on, because they are small.

    If the Tories don't take Wrexham, they have not got a majority. If they take all 4 of these seats, they have a largish majority.

    (Incidentally, the seat is quite like Workington, in the sense that the principal largely Labour town after which the constituency is named is surrounded by a rural or semi-rural hinterland. The nature of the constituency has changed through boundary conditions over the years, which have made it more & more favourable for the Tories).
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Nigelb said:

    FPT, Charles reminds me of one of those old style BBC interviewers who politely asks the PM if he has anything he would like to share with the British public at this time...

    Re the report (in response to @Charles (fpt):-

    “Maxwellisation” is not relevant here. The report is in final form ready to be published. The only reason it is coming up as an issue during an election period is because of the delay imposed by No 10. Had normal process been followed, it would have been published already while Parliament was sitting.

    No 10 is delaying for no good reason and then using the delay they have imposed to justify not publishing because there’s an election. It is a pretty transparent abuse of process.

    The integrity of our electoral process is critical. A report on possible interference by foreign hostile states into that process is important and should be made transparent, especially before an election.

    Incidentally, I don’t expect the report to point fingers at particular individuals or to allege loads of crimes. Rather, I would expect it to look at the sorts of techniques which non-British actors use, the weaknesses in our systems, the “red flags” to look out for, what steps could be taken to strengthen our systems etc. So more boring than a “Gotcha!” report but very important nonetheless.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    Nigelb said:

    Cracking article, Alistair.

    I note that the only one of the above likely to report fairly early on is Wrexham... the two Scottish constituencies maybe an hour or so later, and most of the rest around 4am.

    Wrexham is a good bellwether, as it is in cluster of 4 similar tight NE Wales marginals (Clwyd S, Alyn & Deeside, Delyn are the others). Wrexham is the easiest to take. All the Welsh seats report early on, because they are small.

    If the Tories don't take Wrexham, they have not got a majority. If they take all 4 of these seats, they have a largish majority.

    (Incidentally, the seat is quite like Workington, in the sense that the principal largely Labour town after which the constituency is named is surrounded by a rural or semi-rural hinterland. The nature of the constituency has changed through boundary conditions over the years, which have made it more & more favourable for the Tories).
    Battersea reports very early, and might be interesting ?
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    I know this is being used as a political attack line but both of those statements seem eminently sensible to me.

    The Inquiry itself said exactly the same thing as far as the first point is concerned. Many of the victims would have survived if they had ignored the official advise.

    And yes to my mind common sense means I would hope I would ignore the official advise and trust my own instincts.

    This was exactly the same as with Piper Alpha where those who broke the rules had a chance at survival and all those who followed the rules died waiting in an accommodation block for rescue that was never going to come.

    We are now taught this as part of our survival courses every 4 years. Although it is only semi official as telling people to ignore the rules is frowned upon.
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    camelcamel Posts: 815
    Cities of London and Westminster . If Chuka is confused as to which party he is standing for this week (and moreso the electors), Dirk Heck, candidate for the Liberal party, is not going to help matters.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    One would have hoped that Rees-Mogg would spend the election cooped up in Somerset NE, trying to retain his seat against the yellow bar charts. Alas no.

    What has happened to Unity Rees-Mogg ?
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    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    Not without his nanny accompanying him certainly.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    One would have hoped that Rees-Mogg would spend the election cooped up in Somerset NE, trying to retain his seat against the yellow bar charts. Alas no.

    What has happened to Unity Rees-Mogg ?
    Aha, wiki reports that she is pregnant with a third child.

    There is no shortage of Rees-Moggs for the future. We are going to be overrun with them.
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    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    My predictions:
    Cheltenham - Lib dem GAIN
    Southport - Con Hold, Lib dems second
    Cities of Westminster Con Hold, Lab second
    East Ren- Con Hold
    Norwich North- Con Hold
    Kensington-really tough but I think Labour Hold
    Ipswich- Labour Hold
    Lanark and Hamilton East- SNP Hold, Tories second
    Wrexham-Con Gain
    Don Valley- Lab Hold.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    GIN1138 said:
    Are YouGov promoting for BXP now?
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    Cheltenham LD gain; Cities of L&W Lab gain; Southport LD gain; E Renfrew SNP gain; Norwich N Con hold; Kensington Lab hold; Ipswich Con gain; Lanark & HE SNP hold; Wrexham Con gain; Don Valley (& Bolsover, Workington, Newcastle UL) Con gain.
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    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    If Jacob Rees-Mogg had common sense he would a) use contraception occasionally , b) vote for Remain, c) keep his mouth shut on matters that he clearly cannot relate to at any kind of level.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    For anyone who has watched The Secret History of the Troubles it is worth listening to Diarmuid Ferriter’s 4-part radio history on BBC Sounds “The Anglo-Irish Century. Gives a good historical overview with some interesting interviews.

    The BBC documentary “Border Country” is also worth watching.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).

    Reminds me a little bit of President Donald Trump's pronouncement after the school shooting a while back that unlike the security guard at the scene who held off waiting for backup he - Donald - in such a situation would have "gone in both barrels blazing" (or some such). It really helped the victims, knowing this.
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    I know this is being used as a political attack line but both of those statements seem eminently sensible to me.

    The Inquiry itself said exactly the same thing as far as the first point is concerned. Many of the victims would have survived if they had ignored the official advise.

    And yes to my mind common sense means I would hope I would ignore the official advise and trust my own instincts.

    This was exactly the same as with Piper Alpha where those who broke the rules had a chance at survival and all those who followed the rules died waiting in an accommodation block for rescue that was never going to come.

    We are now taught this as part of our survival courses every 4 years. Although it is only semi official as telling people to ignore the rules is frowned upon.
    And the last is surely the point ?
    In any other context, Rees Mogg would probably deprecate any suggestion that official rules be ignored. (And there is no provision of survival courses for flat dwellers, I think.)

    I don't think this ought to be much of a political attack line, as even Rees Mogg is entitled to the benefit gof the doubt once in a while, but it is surely fair to point out that inconsistency ?
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    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
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    IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Are YouGov promoting for BXP now?
    Not sure, however +4 follows -5 or -6 last poll
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    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    If Jacob Rees-Mogg had common sense he would a) use contraception occasionally , b) vote for Remain, c) keep his mouth shut on matters that he clearly cannot relate to at any kind of level.
    And here is a perfect example of what I just posted.
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    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT, Charles reminds me of one of those old style BBC interviewers who politely asks the PM if he has anything he would like to share with the British public at this time...

    Charles is on the telly? Good lord, whatever next?
    Sadly, I don't think so.
    It was more his 1950s habit of deference to authority.
    Well,.... these "Old Families". :D:D
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Are YouGov promoting for BXP now?
    Not sure, however +4 follows -5 or -6 last poll
    The Farage trampoline.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    Cheltenham LD gain; Cities of L&W Lab gain; Southport LD gain; E Renfrew SNP gain; Norwich N Con hold; Kensington Lab hold; Ipswich Con gain; Lanark & HE SNP hold; Wrexham Con gain; Don Valley (& Bolsover, Workington, Newcastle UL) Con gain.

    Don Valley goes blue ?? !!
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    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    One would have hoped that Rees-Mogg would spend the election cooped up in Somerset NE, trying to retain his seat against the yellow bar charts. Alas no.

    What has happened to Unity Rees-Mogg ?
    Aha, wiki reports that she is pregnant with a third child.

    There is no shortage of Rees-Moggs for the future. We are going to be overrun with them.
    In the past month or two, I've read biographies of several Cabinet ministers (Gove, Cameron, JRM and Boris) and one can't help noticing that Cameron and Rees-Mogg in particular seem not to have appreciated how charmed their lives have been. It is not just the money but the opened doors and smoothed paths even more.
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    kinabalu said:

    Cheltenham LD gain; Cities of L&W Lab gain; Southport LD gain; E Renfrew SNP gain; Norwich N Con hold; Kensington Lab hold; Ipswich Con gain; Lanark & HE SNP hold; Wrexham Con gain; Don Valley (& Bolsover, Workington, Newcastle UL) Con gain.

    Don Valley goes blue ?? !!
    It's very close but according to my model, yes.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,314
    edited November 2019
    kinabalu said:

    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).

    Reminds me a little bit of President Donald Trump's pronouncement after the school shooting a while back that unlike the security guard at the scene who held off waiting for backup he - Donald - in such a situation would have "gone in both barrels blazing" (or some such). It really helped the victims, knowing this.
    It always amazes me that the Draft Dodger In Chief has not had his military record more closely scrutinised. I seem to recall John Kerry suffering greatly over a relatively minor matter. How does Trump get away with it? Don't Veterans have votes?
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    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    Pontificating from the safety of an armchair is very different to how you would react in life-threatening conditions. It is easy to be a smart-ass from the comfort of your armchair.
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    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    They would be insensitive comments if said by someone who was not Rees-Mogg. As they ARE said by Rees-Mogg they are the height of political stupidity. As I am someone who does not want this government rewarded with a majority, I hope they have JRM on regularly, though not regularly enough to achieve a Corbyn majority. The man is a complete fool.
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,217
    edited November 2019
    I think Stockton South could be interesting. Tories are 888 behind, and have their usual oodles of cash. Which combined with Labour's collapse on Teesside in May could make things right.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    It's very close but according to my model, yes.

    Wow. That would be some result. Flint is a popular figure.

    What BXP assumption do you have AAMOI?
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    What a surprise. Corbyn is with Pidcock for his launch in a few minutes.

    Looks like the Cult are being shown how to vote in January.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2019

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Stupid thing to say at the start of an election campaign, and has a whiff of out-of-touch condescension.

    You might think they're sensible, but they are easily weaponised by opponents and play straight into the 'clueless Eton elites' theme, and are thus a political fuck-up of the first order.
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    camelcamel Posts: 815
    Jo Swinson launching the LIbDems campaign. She has my vote, though I do think of the coalition gang, Ed Davy would have been a better choice, and of the others, Layla Moran is more credible. Jo has too much arm movement. It's distracting.
    No more than Chuka's seat warmer.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
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    camel said:

    Jo Swinson launching the LIbDems campaign. She has my vote, though I do think of the coalition gang, Ed Davy would have been a better choice, and of the others, Layla Moran is more credible. Jo has too much arm movement. It's distracting.
    No more than Chuka's seat warmer.

    Depends on the result. A good slew of LD seats will secure her for the full term.
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    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    One would have hoped that Rees-Mogg would spend the election cooped up in Somerset NE, trying to retain his seat against the yellow bar charts. Alas no.

    What has happened to Unity Rees-Mogg ?
    Aha, wiki reports that she is pregnant with a third child.

    There is no shortage of Rees-Moggs for the future. We are going to be overrun with them.
    In the past month or two, I've read biographies of several Cabinet ministers (Gove, Cameron, JRM and Boris) and one can't help noticing that Cameron and Rees-Mogg in particular seem not to have appreciated how charmed their lives have been. It is not just the money but the opened doors and smoothed paths even more.
    What do you think of the Cameron autobio? I'm ploughing through it at the moment.

    I was quite enjoying it until I got to the Levenson chapter. My problem then was that I actually knew a fair bit about the topic and one or two of the characters involved (Brooks, Wade and Coulson.) The extent to which he was glossing over things was plain, and it made me rather more sceptical about the rest of the book.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    One would have hoped that Rees-Mogg would spend the election cooped up in Somerset NE, trying to retain his seat against the yellow bar charts. Alas no.

    What has happened to Unity Rees-Mogg ?
    Aha, wiki reports that she is pregnant with a third child.

    There is no shortage of Rees-Moggs for the future. We are going to be overrun with them.
    In the past month or two, I've read biographies of several Cabinet ministers (Gove, Cameron, JRM and Boris) and one can't help noticing that Cameron and Rees-Mogg in particular seem not to have appreciated how charmed their lives have been. It is not just the money but the opened doors and smoothed paths even more.
    People are very good at assuming that what they have is down solely to their own talent rather than a large dose of good luck.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    I think Stockton South could be interesting. Tories are 888 behind, and have their usual oodles of cash. Which combined with Labour's collapse on Teesside in May could make things right.

    Stockton South should be an easy Tory gain.
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    kinabalu said:

    It's very close but according to my model, yes.

    Wow. That would be some result. Flint is a popular figure.

    What BXP assumption do you have AAMOI?
    I assume they stand and my model awards them 11% of the vote. I don't have any MP specific factors in the model - if she has even a 1 or 2% personal premium it would be enough for her to win it. Similarly if the polls shift towards Labour just a bit the model will award it to her. There are a lot of seats where a small shift in vote shares move them from the Lab to Con column or vice versa. This election is going to be very hard to call if you ask me.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    Nigelb said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
    Surely most those of those poor souls who died were high up in the building, knew the electricity, and hence the lighting, had failed and needed help to get out. It may also have seemed safer to keep the doors closed against the smoke, since stories of death by smoke inhalation are relatively common.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    At least Boris doesn’t have one of these.

    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1191495086581792768?s=21
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150

    What a surprise. Corbyn is with Pidcock for his launch in a few minutes.

    Looks like the Cult are being shown how to vote in January.

    Very good, they'll miss the election then.
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    Swinson speech. Job done. Pretty run of the mill. She wont be setting the campaign on fire at this rate.
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    I think Stockton South could be interesting. Tories are 888 behind, and have their usual oodles of cash. Which combined with Labour's collapse on Teesside in May could make things right.

    Stockton South should be an easy Tory gain.
    Agree with you (for once).
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    geoffw said:

    What a surprise. Corbyn is with Pidcock for his launch in a few minutes.

    Looks like the Cult are being shown how to vote in January.

    Very good, they'll miss the election then.
    ...how to vote in January during the leadership election.
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    At least Boris doesn’t have one of these.

    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1191495086581792768?s=21

    For some reason, he does not strike me as the epitome of Christian values. Am I being unfair?
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    Swinson answering journos questions as if she is continuing her speech, i.e. declaiming to the audience.

    Doesn't work for me.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    At least Boris doesn’t have one of these.

    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1191495086581792768?s=21

    Trump has faith?!

    Is this some new religion he’s just invented?
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    I know this is being used as a political attack line but both of those statements seem eminently sensible to me.

    The Inquiry itself said exactly the same thing as far as the first point is concerned. Many of the victims would have survived if they had ignored the official advise.

    And yes to my mind common sense means I would hope I would ignore the official advise and trust my own instincts.

    This was exactly the same as with Piper Alpha where those who broke the rules had a chance at survival and all those who followed the rules died waiting in an accommodation block for rescue that was never going to come.

    We are now taught this as part of our survival courses every 4 years. Although it is only semi official as telling people to ignore the rules is frowned upon.
    I remember being told by a senior fire service officer that there is a rule of thumb for major incidents. About 10% of people will sort themselves out, and get out on their own and evacuate early, often before being given orders to do so. Another 10% will literally go and locate the seat of the fire and often get themselves killed or seriously injured whilst doing so. The other 80% of people wait for instruction, either from alarms, marshalls, or emergency services. When it works that's fine, when it doesn't work you end up with people waiting until the flames are almost on top of them.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    edited November 2019
    Anorak said:
    ...for the 18th century? It's taken a while.
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    On topic, great tips.

    I actually put a tenner on the Tories in Lanark & Hamilton East at the weekend.
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    Nigelb said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
    The logical conclusion of that being we should not learn from mistakes. We seem these days to be far too concerned about protecting people from hurt feelings even at the cost of allowing the same mistakes to be made again and again.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    nunu2 said:

    My predictions:
    Cheltenham - Lib dem GAIN
    Southport - Con Hold, Lib dems second
    Cities of Westminster Con Hold, Lab second
    East Ren- Con Hold
    Norwich North- Con Hold
    Kensington-really tough but I think Labour Hold
    Ipswich- Labour Hold
    Lanark and Hamilton East- SNP Hold, Tories second
    Wrexham-Con Gain
    Don Valley- Lab Hold.

    My estimates:

    Cheltenham C/LD 35/65 (probability of winning)
    London and Westminster C/L/LD 80/10/10
    Southport C/LD 50/50
    Norwich N C/L/LD 90/10/0
    Kensington C/L/LD 60/20/20
    Ipswich C/L 80/20
    Don Valley C/L 50/50
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    eekeek Posts: 24,979

    I think Stockton South could be interesting. Tories are 888 behind, and have their usual oodles of cash. Which combined with Labour's collapse on Teesside in May could make things right.

    Stockton South should be an easy Tory gain.
    Agree with you (for once).
    It was a strange lose in 2017..
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    Cyclefree said:

    At least Boris doesn’t have one of these.

    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1191495086581792768?s=21

    Trump has faith?!

    Is this some new religion he’s just invented?
    Mammon.
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    I think Stockton South could be interesting. Tories are 888 behind, and have their usual oodles of cash. Which combined with Labour's collapse on Teesside in May could make things right.

    Stockton South should be an easy Tory gain.
    Agree with you (for once).
    Should be. It's a race to the bottom for both Labour and Tory vote tallies - the party who loses the fewest votes wins the seat. Brexit Party will take thousands of votes from both. Although I'm a LibDem now I'm not predicting big things here (not a target seat) but I anticipate thousands of "can't vote for Corbyn" voters up for grabs who aren't Brexit chanters either.
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    Nigelb said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
    The logical conclusion of that being we should not learn from mistakes. We seem these days to be far too concerned about protecting people from hurt feelings even at the cost of allowing the same mistakes to be made again and again.
    The person who needs to learn from that mistake is LFB, not the public
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    Anorak said:
    Christ, he didn't even let the deflectors and equivocators get into their stride. Where's the sport in that?
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995
    edited November 2019
    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    He might take that weird kid of his that he enjoys exposing to the lower orders.
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    Anorak said:
    Christ, he didn't even let the deflectors and equivocators get into their stride. Where's the sport in that?
    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1191662991852417024
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    Nigelb said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
    The logical conclusion of that being we should not learn from mistakes. We seem these days to be far too concerned about protecting people from hurt feelings even at the cost of allowing the same mistakes to be made again and again.
    Now you have abandoned logic completely.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Mogg's told the truth here, but he's done it in a terribly cack handed manner - correct he has apologised and fast.
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    Nigelb said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
    The logical conclusion of that being we should not learn from mistakes. We seem these days to be far too concerned about protecting people from hurt feelings even at the cost of allowing the same mistakes to be made again and again.
    The person who needs to learn from that mistake is LFB, not the public
    And neither seem to be doing so.
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    I included Don Valley for a specific reason (and it is a counterpart to Cheltenham). In both seats, the MP finds their party's views going against the grain of the local electorate as a whole. In both cases, the MP has sought to appease the local electorate. But in both cases, they may be falling victim to the ecological fallacy: the majority of their own voters almost certainly in both cases align with their party line. It is as likely that Caroline Flint finds herself punished by angry Labour Remainers voting Lib Dem, Green or abstaining as rewarded by floating Leavers.
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    Swinson: "Luciana didn't want to leave Labour she was driven"

    I see what she wants to say here, but is it wise to say some of your candidates are only here for negative reasons.
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    Cyclefree said:

    At least Boris doesn’t have one of these.

    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1191495086581792768?s=21

    Trump has faith?!

    Is this some new religion he’s just invented?
    Mammon.
    Is she insane? God is wherever she walks? She's downloading Heaven???

    In an earlier age she would be burnt for heresy.
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    Cyclefree said:

    nichomar said:

    I can’t imagine he has ever been in a council run tower block in his life.
    One would have hoped that Rees-Mogg would spend the election cooped up in Somerset NE, trying to retain his seat against the yellow bar charts. Alas no.

    What has happened to Unity Rees-Mogg ?
    Aha, wiki reports that she is pregnant with a third child.

    There is no shortage of Rees-Moggs for the future. We are going to be overrun with them.
    In the past month or two, I've read biographies of several Cabinet ministers (Gove, Cameron, JRM and Boris) and one can't help noticing that Cameron and Rees-Mogg in particular seem not to have appreciated how charmed their lives have been. It is not just the money but the opened doors and smoothed paths even more.
    People are very good at assuming that what they have is down solely to their own talent rather than a large dose of good luck.
    Come now, we know JRM could save a family and entourage of 83 from a burning tower block. That's not just down to luck.
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    Nigelb said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
    The logical conclusion of that being we should not learn from mistakes. We seem these days to be far too concerned about protecting people from hurt feelings even at the cost of allowing the same mistakes to be made again and again.
    It was the LFB wot told them to stay put.
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    Anorak said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Stupid thing to say at the start of an election campaign, and has a whiff of out-of-touch condescension.

    You might think they're sensible, but they are easily weaponised by opponents and play straight into the 'clueless Eton elites' theme, and are thus a political fuck-up of the first order.
    In terms of lack of common sense it is similar to May deciding that advocating a new vote on fox hunting was a vote winner.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    It always amazes me that the Draft Dodger In Chief has not had his military record more closely scrutinised. I seem to recall John Kerry suffering greatly over a relatively minor matter. How does Trump get away with it? Don't Veterans have votes?

    I don't know how he gets away with any of it, tbh. I find it quite bizarre that he is polling above 10%. On the military he seems to be of that type of individual who is fascinated and impressed by such matters whilst at the same time being extremely naive about them. For example, why ramp up spending on the military when his policy is to disengage overseas and therefore have less use for them? Is it simply because he likes the idea of being the commander-in-chief of lots and lots of soldiers and tanks and missiles?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    I included Don Valley for a specific reason (and it is a counterpart to Cheltenham). In both seats, the MP finds their party's views going against the grain of the local electorate as a whole. In both cases, the MP has sought to appease the local electorate. But in both cases, they may be falling victim to the ecological fallacy: the majority of their own voters almost certainly in both cases align with their party line. It is as likely that Caroline Flint finds herself punished by angry Labour Remainers voting Lib Dem, Green or abstaining as rewarded by floating Leavers.

    Call me naive but I don't think Flint has taken her position to "appease the electorate" in Don Valley, probably because she sincerely believes that having voted to leave we must now leave.
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    I included Don Valley for a specific reason (and it is a counterpart to Cheltenham). In both seats, the MP finds their party's views going against the grain of the local electorate as a whole. In both cases, the MP has sought to appease the local electorate. But in both cases, they may be falling victim to the ecological fallacy: the majority of their own voters almost certainly in both cases align with their party line. It is as likely that Caroline Flint finds herself punished by angry Labour Remainers voting Lib Dem, Green or abstaining as rewarded by floating Leavers.

    @AlastairMeeks - Have you allowed for the fact that the percentages from 2016 are now regarded as unreliable due to shifts in the demographics of the country? Less Leavers and more Remainers on the electoral rolls?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    Swinson: "Luciana didn't want to leave Labour she was driven"

    I see what she wants to say here, but is it wise to say some of your candidates are only here for negative reasons.

    Or you might be saying that you are offering a broad church party of the centre, which can accommodate both Conservative and Labour members who have been driven out by the lurch of their own parties away from the centre ground.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,979
    edited November 2019

    I think Stockton South could be interesting. Tories are 888 behind, and have their usual oodles of cash. Which combined with Labour's collapse on Teesside in May could make things right.

    Stockton South should be an easy Tory gain.
    Agree with you (for once).
    Should be. It's a race to the bottom for both Labour and Tory vote tallies - the party who loses the fewest votes wins the seat. Brexit Party will take thousands of votes from both. Although I'm a LibDem now I'm not predicting big things here (not a target seat) but I anticipate thousands of "can't vote for Corbyn" voters up for grabs who aren't Brexit chanters either.
    Logically (and emotionally) a voter should vote for the least worst party able to win the seat - it's why I will hold my nose of vote Labour as it's a 2 horse race in our seat and the Tory candidate is awful in a lot of ways.

    It will be interesting to see where Corbyn campaigns as I suspect a lot of candidates will not want him anywhere near their seat as they campaign on a yes I'm the Labour candidate but I'm not a Corbynite platform.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    alb1on said:

    Anorak said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Stupid thing to say at the start of an election campaign, and has a whiff of out-of-touch condescension.

    You might think they're sensible, but they are easily weaponised by opponents and play straight into the 'clueless Eton elites' theme, and are thus a political fuck-up of the first order.
    In terms of lack of common sense it is similar to May deciding that advocating a new vote on fox hunting was a vote winner.
    On the other hand, it's distracted from the Labour and Lib Dem events this morning. Classic Dom :smiley:
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    Nigelb said:

    Swinson: "Luciana didn't want to leave Labour she was driven"

    I see what she wants to say here, but is it wise to say some of your candidates are only here for negative reasons.

    Or you might be saying that you are offering a broad church party of the centre, which can accommodate both Conservative and Labour members who have been driven out by the lurch of their own parties away from the centre ground.
    Indeed. So say that. Keep saying it. There are millions of voters without a home now the two main parties have gone totally nuts.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Sensible for Mogg to apologise. Even if he thinks that and he is indeed correct in this case it is not wise contradict emergency service advise.

    He is lucky this story has little exposure and will probably only be seen by a small minority of the public thanks to his swift apology.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Swinson: "Luciana didn't want to leave Labour she was driven"

    I see what she wants to say here, but is it wise to say some of your candidates are only here for negative reasons.

    Specifically, she was forced out for gross disloyalty to her elected party leader.

    Best of luck, Jo...
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    Anorak said:

    alb1on said:

    Anorak said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Stupid thing to say at the start of an election campaign, and has a whiff of out-of-touch condescension.

    You might think they're sensible, but they are easily weaponised by opponents and play straight into the 'clueless Eton elites' theme, and are thus a political fuck-up of the first order.
    In terms of lack of common sense it is similar to May deciding that advocating a new vote on fox hunting was a vote winner.
    On the other hand, it's distracted from the Labour and Lib Dem events this morning. Classic Dom :smiley:
    Too high a price. This will be rolled out in campaign literature for the next 5 weeks. May's gaffe took a moment to drop and lasted for the duration.
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    Nigelb said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Imagine you had a relative who had died in the fire, and listening to Rees Mogg saying they'd have survived if they'd been a bit smarter.

    The comments might have an arguable logic about them, but to call them sensible (in both senses of the word) is a stretch.
    The logical conclusion of that being we should not learn from mistakes. We seem these days to be far too concerned about protecting people from hurt feelings even at the cost of allowing the same mistakes to be made again and again.
    It was the LFB wot told them to stay put.
    And on Piper Alpha it was the safety rules, in place for years and drummed into everyone through drills and exercises, that told over 100 men to go and die in the accommodation block. In both cases the official instructions were ill considered and caused many more deaths than was necessary.

    People who broke the rules in both cases survived.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    alb1on said:

    Anorak said:

    alb1on said:

    Anorak said:

    philiph said:

    As the report is critical of the advice that was given, instructing residents to stay, it seems like a logical extension of that fact that survival numbers would have increased if people had left the building.
    "What I woulda done' is different from 'What shoulda happened' (and pretty prickish in the context).
    The pricks are those trying to make political capital out of perfectly sensible comments.
    Stupid thing to say at the start of an election campaign, and has a whiff of out-of-touch condescension.

    You might think they're sensible, but they are easily weaponised by opponents and play straight into the 'clueless Eton elites' theme, and are thus a political fuck-up of the first order.
    In terms of lack of common sense it is similar to May deciding that advocating a new vote on fox hunting was a vote winner.
    On the other hand, it's distracted from the Labour and Lib Dem events this morning. Classic Dom :smiley:
    Too high a price. This will be rolled out in campaign literature for the next 5 weeks. May's gaffe took a moment to drop and lasted for the duration.
    I was kidding. It's a copper-bottomed clusterfuck of a comment, hence the speed of arrival of the grovelling apology.
This discussion has been closed.