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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest Ipsos MORI government satisfaction ratings are wors

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest Ipsos MORI government satisfaction ratings are worse for the incumbent than Major faced just before Blair’s GE1997 landslide

I was so taken by David Herdson’s observation in the previous thread header about how poor the current Ipsos MORI government satisfaction ratings that I thought I would dig into the pollster’s huge archive to see if there were historical precdents.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    First!
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    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,933

    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    People are generally unhappy with the way the country is being run, but are not yet ready to embrace Corbyn's radical form of venezuelan socialism as the cure. It isn't so much that they're afraid of him. More that they don't think his ideas will work.
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    2017?
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    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    Nothing out of line about it - Boris, whatever you may think of him, has a certain level of populist charisma and star power that most other politicians don't. And Corbyn, however much his fans adore him, is seen by non-fans as an extremist crank leading other extremist cranks.

    [p.s. I am obviously blueblue, having lost my years-old email account with no way to recover it!]
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Since the turn of the millennium politics has become considerably more partisan. If you didn't vote for a party you are far more likely to actively dislike it and its politicians than in the past. E.g. it used to be the case US presidents could command significant approval from across the political spectrum, It's far more adversarial now.

    That's why i'm not sure government satisfaction ratings are particularly instructive any more.
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    The dissatisfaction will be with May's government & the overall political class. This election is about Brexit and whether you like Boris or not. Different than a normal election.
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!
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    In advance of these constituency polls tonight (which have a huge MoE: remember Ashcroft GE2015) I've backed the Conservatives in a handful of Welsh seats at odds better than evens.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,435
    edited November 2019
    kyf_100 said:

    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    People are generally unhappy with the way the country is being run, but are not yet ready to embrace Corbyn's radical form of venezuelan socialism as the cure. It isn't so much that they're afraid of him. More that they don't think his ideas will work.
    Its interesting, isn't it, because Labour's policies are polling pretty well at the moment.

    I think some of it comes down to the fact that as standalone policies they sound pretty attractive. A polling question which essentially comes down to "would you like free broadband?" is probably going to elicit a similar response to saying "would you like a free puppy and a wallet with £1,000 in it?"

    Maybe the divide between the policies and the Labour rating is because, taken as a whole, there are questions of competence, leadership and deliverability when considered as a party voting intention as a whole. Certainly there are things Labour say that I would support - broadly speaking, I think that the current way of running the trains doesn't work and I'd support a return to public ownership, at least in the short to medium term. But I couldn't bring myself to vote for the Labour Party because I feel they'd trash the economy and I really don't like Corbyn.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Banterman said:

    The dissatisfaction will be with May's government & the overall political class. This election is about Brexit and whether you like Boris or not. Different than a normal election.

    We’re so screwed.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    It's not "this Government" people have had enough with - it is "Government" - the whole Westminster kit and caboodle.
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    Since the turn of the millennium politics has become considerably more partisan. If you didn't vote for a party you are far more likely to actively dislike it and its politicians than in the past. E.g. it used to be the case US presidents could command significant approval from across the political spectrum, It's far more adversarial now.

    That's why i'm not sure government satisfaction ratings are particularly instructive any more.

    Yes, it is very difficult to see a President winning the electoral college by the margins Reagan did in 1984 or Nixon did in 1972, for instance, nowadays.
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    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    I have no time for Johnson, but viewed objectively he's promised major changes of direction from the May government before and has delivered on one of those promises already, by reaching a new deal with the EU.

    The opinion polls suggested that the voters were willing to give Brown the benefit of the doubt in a similar way at first too, so it's not that unusual. It's a question of how long it lasts, as David Herdson asked earlier.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    Was the report of a BMG poll earlier genuine? It was a bit strange that it apparently had exactly the same figures as the previous BMG poll.
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    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.
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    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    It's not "this Government" people have had enough with - it is "Government" - the whole Westminster kit and caboodle.
    Yes, I think that's right.
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    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.

    I wimped out last year and checked on here before I turned on the TV. That was an interesting moment.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,288
    edited November 2019

    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    Well, to be fair to Corbyn (yeah, difficult I know but bear with me), he does get an unrelenting bad press. Johnson gets criticism too, it's true, but not quite in the same way.
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    Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited November 2019
    I wonder if these Gvt satisfaction numbers aren’t picking up some feeling about Parliament? Remember we’ve been through an odd period where a lot of notionally Gvt MPs have been acting as opposition.

    Hence Boris can be more popular and sort of run as the change candidate.
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    Ave_it said:

    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!

    That is one thing I will not be hoping for. Unlike the last two elections in my ultra marginal I will not be voting for a party tainted by anti semitism
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,913
    I expect a shed load of nonce sense
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    Whatever the polls show politics/general election will be taking a back seat for the rest of this weekend...
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!

    That is one thing I will not be hoping for. Unlike the last two elections in my ultra marginal I will not be voting for a party tainted by anti semitism
    Jolly good Mike. Please vote CON. Please.

    Ain't too proud to beg 😊
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899

    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.

    Remember to pack spare trousers !
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    I wonder if these Gvt satisfaction numbers aren’t picking up some feeling about Parliament? Remember we’ve been through an odd period where a lot of notionally Gvt MPs have been acting as opposition.

    Hence Boris can be more popular and sort of run as the change candidate.

    That's an excellent point - we would need some "Parliament Satisfaction" ratings to compare. I'm sure many Conservatives and Leavers have been tearing their hair out in anger at Parliament's antics in recent months but have only become more determined to vote for a majority Conservative Government...
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    NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    edited November 2019
    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!

    That is one thing I will not be hoping for. Unlike the last two elections in my ultra marginal I will not be voting for a party tainted by anti semitism
    Jolly good Mike. Please vote CON. Please.

    Ain't too proud to beg 😊
    The party tainted by islamophobia?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,841
    The interview goes out tonight or tomorrow night? I thought it was tomorrow night.
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    GIN1138 said:

    Whatever the polls show politics/general election will be taking a back seat for the rest of this weekend...
    Just as well he's now only eighth in line for the throne.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,933

    kyf_100 said:

    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    People are generally unhappy with the way the country is being run, but are not yet ready to embrace Corbyn's radical form of venezuelan socialism as the cure. It isn't so much that they're afraid of him. More that they don't think his ideas will work.
    Its interesting, isn't it, because Labour's policies are polling pretty well at the moment.

    I think some of it comes down to the fact that as standalone policies they sound pretty attractive. A polling question which essentially comes down to "would you like free broadband?" is probably going to elicit a similar response to saying "would you like a free puppy and a wallet with £1,000 in it?"

    Maybe the divide between the policies and the Labour rating is because, taken as a whole, there are questions of competence, leadership and deliverability when considered as a party voting intention as a whole. Certainly there are things Labour say that I would support - broadly speaking, I think that the current way of running the trains doesn't work and I'd support a return to public ownership, at least in the short to medium term. But I couldn't bring myself to vote for the Labour Party because I feel they'd trash the economy and I really don't like Corbyn.
    Yes. Individual Labour policies are popular. How could they not be... it's free stuff! Free stuff for everyone. But at a macro level Labour just aren't trusted to run the economy.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    Jonathan said:

    Banterman said:

    The dissatisfaction will be with May's government & the overall political class. This election is about Brexit and whether you like Boris or not. Different than a normal election.

    We’re so screwed.
    The operative "We" being Labour, then your damned right. With Corbyn as Leader, Labour are royally fecked.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    Wouldn't Andrew have MI5/MI6 monitoring what he is doing all the time? Seems odd that they/the government let this "friendship" between him and Epstein go on for a decade?
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    Noo said:

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!

    That is one thing I will not be hoping for. Unlike the last two elections in my ultra marginal I will not be voting for a party tainted by anti semitism
    Jolly good Mike. Please vote CON. Please.

    Ain't too proud to beg 😊
    The party tainted by islamophobia?
    I can understand not voting for Labour because of anti-Semitism, but to vote for a party that has its own racism problems and lead by a man who has said some literally racist things, I find bizarre.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    edited November 2019
    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't Andrew have MI5/MI6 monitoring what he is doing all the time? Seems odd that they/the government let this "friendship" between him and Epstein go on for a decade?

    Being friends with someone who turns out to be a criminal isn't a criminal offence as far as I'm aware. You'd think it was from some of the coverage.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,507

    How can it be a Government that is so widely despised, has a leader that is so much more popular than it?

    I get the fear of Corbyn is part of that - but it's so out of line, it's extraordinary.

    It's not "this Government" people have had enough with - it is "Government" - the whole Westminster kit and caboodle.
    Very complacent. Even Brexiteers do not like this government much, just consider it a means to an end. Whipping up "people vs Parliament" is a dangerous for those wanting votes.
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    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't Andrew have MI5/MI6 monitoring what he is doing all the time? Seems odd that they/the government let this "friendship" between him and Epstein go on for a decade?

    More Special Branch than the agencies, which makes me suspect he was never around actual illegality. They’d be with him and there’d be coppers in or near the house*.

    Doesn’t excuse he appalling judgement and taste in friends though. No more Gvt role for him and he should be off the civil list.

    *I might be wrong about that, Special Branch protection isn’t always as widespread as assumed.
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    On the topic of today's polls: if Labour doesn't get a big bump in a week dominated by flooding, NHS waiting times, and gigantic free broadband bribes, then I think they're screwed - it means that not enough of the public are falling for their schtick anymore.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.

    I wimped out last year and checked on here before I turned on the TV. That was an interesting moment.
    It's a great thread.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    Labour always has very soft green support it can faithfully rely on to come onboard once an election is called.
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    Longest suicide note in history ... or just the second-longest? :wink:
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,913
    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't Andrew have MI5/MI6 monitoring what he is doing all the time? Seems odd that they/the government let this "friendship" between him and Epstein go on for a decade?

    The royals arent well known for being ordered about by anyone.
    Besides, it's not like they arent all in on it. Epstein isn't just some random pedo, he was friends with people right through politics royalty and hollywood. Just look at his plane logs and who holidayed on his island. Just how deep and far abuse goes is the great untold secret of the rich and famous
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    Pulpstar said:

    Labour always has very soft green support it can faithfully rely on to come onboard once an election is called.
    Labour will squeeze them to around 1 or 2 percent I would think.

    Tory vote in 2010 was 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.

    Where have those Lib Dems gone?
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    edited November 2019
    Chris Williamson seems to have found some unusual helpers, including Jews for Jeremy.

    https://twitter.com/AlanOlive1/status/1195764809121370112

    Odd how Labour supporters are up in arms about Mike Gapes, and Chris Leslie using a similar house style for leaflets and cards.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    My repeated posts of OMFG are classic.
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    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't Andrew have MI5/MI6 monitoring what he is doing all the time? Seems odd that they/the government let this "friendship" between him and Epstein go on for a decade?

    They let Maggie get pals walsy with Savile for years, so...
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    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!

    That is one thing I will not be hoping for. Unlike the last two elections in my ultra marginal I will not be voting for a party tainted by anti semitism
    Jolly good Mike. Please vote CON. Please.

    Ain't too proud to beg 😊
    We are playing you next Saturday. Let's hope Watford's form continues
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    Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited November 2019
    Eh? Erm....

    Edit - Oh drops as in “removed”. Yes, getting rid of an impossible policy is sensible.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,507
    BluerBlue said:

    Longest suicide note in history ... or just the second-longest? :wink:
    Though parts much of that 1983 manifesto has been implemented by Tories.
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    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Unless they drop the plan to make Jeremy Corbyn PM and John McDonnell Chancellor that won’t help much.
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!

    That is one thing I will not be hoping for. Unlike the last two elections in my ultra marginal I will not be voting for a party tainted by anti semitism
    Jolly good Mike. Please vote CON. Please.

    Ain't too proud to beg 😊
    We are playing you next Saturday. Let's hope Watford's form continues
    Indeed last game: one game one win!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Eh? Erm....

    Edit - Oh drops as in “removed”. Yes, getting rid of an impossible policy is sensible.
    Not for Labour. If they got rid of all their impossible policies they wouldn’t have any left.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.

    I was wondering just before the last election if it's actually flat at all. It's possible that it's bi- or even multi-modal, with the modes reflecting different underlying "states" and the pollsters trying to guess which "state" we're in. For example, this election, a state in which previous Labour voters will ultimately hold their noses and vote for the party again is separate to one in which they will vote Lib Dem/Brexit en masse.

    Part of the reason the pollsters have been having trouble recently could be just that their key assumption of normally distributed error around a central observation simply isn't appropriate any more.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    That’s not quite true.

    ‘Not a moderate’ would cover it. Or ‘no moderates will survive his leadership.’ Or ‘moderates have given up on Corbyn.’
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    Foxy said:

    BluerBlue said:

    Longest suicide note in history ... or just the second-longest? :wink:
    Though parts much of that 1983 manifesto has been implemented by Tories.
    Like leaving the EU!
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    Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited November 2019

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,913
    Randy's body language already being pulled apart on twitter.
    Spoiler - hes lying
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    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Foxy said:

    BluerBlue said:

    Longest suicide note in history ... or just the second-longest? :wink:
    Though parts much of that 1983 manifesto has been implemented by Tories.
    Like leaving the EU!
    On a point of order:

    In 1983 there was no European Union. It was the European Communities that Labour proposed to leave.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    There's no detail in the article.
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    Endillion said:

    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.

    I was wondering just before the last election if it's actually flat at all. It's possible that it's bi- or even multi-modal, with the modes reflecting different underlying "states" and the pollsters trying to guess which "state" we're in. For example, this election, a state in which previous Labour voters will ultimately hold their noses and vote for the party again is separate to one in which they will vote Lib Dem/Brexit en masse.

    Part of the reason the pollsters have been having trouble recently could be just that their key assumption of normally distributed error around a central observation simply isn't appropriate any more.
    Also how they weight people who don't have a strong voting intention, those who say don't know, younger voters, etc.

    I believe a Kantar poll had Labour in the lead but the weighting made it a 10 point lead for the Tories.
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    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    Yes but what does that mean? Companies can reduce working hours now, and some do.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Randy's body language already being pulled apart on twitter.
    Spoiler - hes lying

    When you say ‘Randy,’ is this a reference to Corbyn or Johnson?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    So the proposal is exactly the same as it is now? There is no law compelling companies to employ staff for 40 hours a week.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    Sectoral collective bargaining isn't moderate.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    RobD said:

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    There's no detail in the article.
    Or the manifesto.....
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    Endillion said:

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    Sectoral collective bargaining isn't moderate.
    They do it in Germany
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    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.

    I wimped out last year and checked on here before I turned on the TV. That was an interesting moment.
    Alistair Meeks is responsible for me needing to permanently throw away a pair of trousers that night at about 2am.
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    RobD said:

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    So the proposal is exactly the same as it is now? There is no law compelling companies to employ staff for 40 hours a week.
    Pretty much, I think.
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    I ve got bad news for PB tories

    Bet365 have priced up Aberdeen north

    SNP 1/25
    Labour 8/1
    Con 40/1

    So looks like my anti-separatist vote is Team Commie. If Corbyn is PM cus of this I ll let him borrow my calculator.
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    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    Yes but what does that mean? Companies can reduce working hours now, and some do.
    It will be an ambition over a decade, basically it will be nothing in practice.
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    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    You'd better hope there is - otherwise Labour can go back to their constituencies and prepare for oblivion! :smile:
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,913
    ydoethur said:

    Randy's body language already being pulled apart on twitter.
    Spoiler - hes lying

    When you say ‘Randy,’ is this a reference to Corbyn or Johnson?
    Andrew
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    Endillion said:

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    Sectoral collective bargaining isn't moderate.
    They do it in Germany
    Perhaps we could send them Corbyn then?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    Yes but what does that mean? Companies can reduce working hours now, and some do.
    It will be an ambition over a decade, basically it will be nothing in practice.
    An ambition to keep the law exactly as it is now? Ambitious. :p
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    ELBOW tomorrow should be "interesting"...
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    Yes but what does that mean? Companies can reduce working hours now, and some do.
    It will be an ambition over a decade, basically it will be nothing in practice.
    So Labour are making promises they actually don’t intend to keep?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    Great to see PB attacting so many new posters! :wink:
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    Randy's body language already being pulled apart on twitter.
    Spoiler - hes lying

    When you say ‘Randy,’ is this a reference to Corbyn or Johnson?
    Andrew
    Ah. I did wonder. It could fit so many right now...
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,883
    Endillion said:

    FPT - one of the most insightful things @Richard_Nabavi said after the last election (and he says a lot of insightful things) is to bear in mind the very wide margins of error in predicting seat totals.

    Imagine how tense you'll be feeling at 10pm on Thursday 12th December, as we're poised on the edge of our seats waiting for the exit poll.. It wouldn't take a huge amount to go from:

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVES LARGEST PARTY... 305 seats.. to..

    *BONG* CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY... 365 seats.

    There could be an error of +/- 30 seats (or more) in either which way you predict it around your central forecast, and that is affecting my betting this year.

    It's much flatter than you think.

    I was wondering just before the last election if it's actually flat at all. It's possible that it's bi- or even multi-modal, with the modes reflecting different underlying "states" and the pollsters trying to guess which "state" we're in. For example, this election, a state in which previous Labour voters will ultimately hold their noses and vote for the party again is separate to one in which they will vote Lib Dem/Brexit en masse.

    Part of the reason the pollsters have been having trouble recently could be just that their key assumption of normally distributed error around a central observation simply isn't appropriate any more.
    There probably are these states as you are claiming such as labour voters in Lab/Con seats and Labour Voters in CON/LD seats, but in reality there will be quite a lot of states and different voters will belong to different states. The overall averaging out of many bimodal distributions gives something that is roughly normally distributed with heavier tails.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Great to see PB attacting so many new posters! :wink:

    I think there was a boo-boo with the password system. Managed to reset mine last night, but others may have fared less well.
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    RobD said:

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    The words "moderate" and "Corbyn" are never spoken in the same sentence,nor even written.
    I can’t read the FT article. What is meant by a “voluntary“ 32 hour week? I mean, I can ask to go part time now, and it will probably be accepted.
    I imagine it will be if companies wish to opt into it.

    Bearing in mind the media stories were about forcing it, making it voluntary is moderate. And within a decade even more so.

    The manifesto will be a lot more moderate than the Tories and others expect - and I think there will be a poll boost over the next two weeks.
    Yes but what does that mean? Companies can reduce working hours now, and some do.
    It will be an ambition over a decade, basically it will be nothing in practice.
    An ambition to keep the law exactly as it is now? Ambitious. :p
    It's a headline grabber I guess, or they found the policy wasn't very popular.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Great to see PB attacting so many new posters! :wink:

    None of them are stuck up though.

    @Richard_Tyndall will be handing me my coat again...
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    Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited November 2019
    Endillion said:

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    Sectoral collective bargaining isn't moderate.
    I don’t even know how you get there from the current status quo where many (most?) people are not in unions.

    I’m a union rep (though very definitely don’t fund Labour) and regularly see the benefits of collective bargaining in an employer; but there won’t be many sectors where unions can argue for the same “buy in” for the whole sector as with an employer in which they are recognised.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Endillion said:

    >Labour will also promise a revolution in the labour market by introducing sectoral collective bargaining, promising a 32-hour working week by 2030 — albeit voluntary — and banning zero-hours contracts.

    So actually quite moderate again. Interesting.

    Sectoral collective bargaining isn't moderate.
    I don’t even know how you get there from the current status quo where many (most?) people are not in unions.

    I’m a union rep (though very definitely don’t fund Labour) and regularly see the benefits of collective bargaining in an employer; but there won’t be many sectors where unions can argue for the same “buy in” for the whole sector as with an employer in which they are recognised.
    They can in the public sector.

    Which is the point, really. This policy and the working directive appears to be a function of Labour’s support being almost entirely public sector where such things as short working, working from home and sectoral bargaining are normal. In the private sector, where they have almost entirely disappeared after Wapping in 1986, they will simply be laughed at.
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    Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited November 2019
    Finally reversing some of the changes that red Tory, Attlee, made to ensure the NHS was affordable. Whatever happened to him? Was he asked to f%%# off and join the Tories?

    Edit - More seriously anyone proposing this has to explain why the £450m isn’t better spent on [insert popular NHS funding cause here].
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    It's always seemed strange that there is a charge for dentistry but not for other operations.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1195771706599727104
    Sigh.

    It’s not the checks that are the problem. Getting the teeth checked is cheap and quick. Getting the fecking treatment done is the expensive bit. And that’s speaking as somebody on a good salary who doesn’t eat many sugary foods.
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    Noo said:

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Mike still hoping for LAB landslide!

    That is one thing I will not be hoping for. Unlike the last two elections in my ultra marginal I will not be voting for a party tainted by anti semitism
    Jolly good Mike. Please vote CON. Please.

    Ain't too proud to beg 😊
    The party tainted by islamophobia?
    Good evening, eager young Islamist :)
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    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    dr_spyn said:

    Chris Williamson seems to have found some unusual helpers, including Jews for Jeremy.

    https://twitter.com/AlanOlive1/status/1195764809121370112

    Odd how Labour supporters are up in arms about Mike Gapes, and Chris Leslie using a similar house style for leaflets and cards.

    Of course they are Labour antisemites. And of course Corbyn and the leadership will look the other way.
This discussion has been closed.