And the crocodile tears of the rightwing press on anti-semitism are truly a thing to behold. The Daily Mail, let's not forget, ran what was essentially an anti-semitic dog-whistle campaign against Ed Miliband's father, the Sun ran an anti-semitic bacon sandwich campaign on the eve of the election, and the Telegraph bringing up the rear with its tawdry dog-whistle campaign against Soros, on its front page, no less.
What's your cynical gloss on the views of Tom Watson, Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge, the Jewish Chronicle, and something like 90+% of the Jewish population?
According to my wife it's nothing like 90% of the Jewish population ; I defer to her judgement on the question.
Oh dear. More important than the Chief Rabbi is the fact that Johnson CANT get Brexit done by January 1st either this year or next according to Ivar Rogers. It's another Johnson lie. Newsnight tonight.
It is a bit more nuanced than that and he attacks Corbyn and the EU itself
But you have to be biased in your post. A little bit of information is dangerous
I wondered when this account would come up. Do a bit of research on who this account is and the people they hang out with
Smearing Jews who volunteer their time to do something the Labour Party should be doing itself - identifying and casting out racists - is not a good look.
I'm not smearing anyone, this account just has "interesting" views on racism, if you care to a bit of research
No, they don't. They've faced down a smear campaign from Antisemites which you have apparently fallen for hook line and sinker.
In 2015 I had a spreadsheet which listed the Twitter feeds of candidates. I've been put out of business on that score since then, lol. I think I was the only person doing it at that election.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Is this the same Ivan Rogers who thought Boris couldn't get a deal? He knows zilch.
He was right. Boris didn't 'get a deal', he caved in and went back to the original one which the EU had proposed.
He took the original deal which was a better deal and improved it.
The deal he got was not the original one. Unless in the original one NI could de jure leave the Customs Union, de facto take advantage of UK trade deals, had no backstop and had a unilateral exit that could be democratically triggered. Was all that true with the original deal?
Its bizarre that people like you seem to think May taking the NI backstop and extending it to the whole of the UK was progress. Going back to the NI backstop and then ensuring NI consent and an NI exit mechanism was real progress.
And the crocodile tears of the rightwing press on anti-semitism are truly a thing to behold. The Daily Mail, let's not forget, ran what was essentially an anti-semitic dog-whistle campaign against Ed Miliband's father, the Sun ran an anti-semitic bacon sandwich campaign on the eve of the election, and the Telegraph bringing up the rear with its tawdry dog-whistle campaign against Soros, on its front page, no less.
What's your cynical gloss on the views of Tom Watson, Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge, the Jewish Chronicle, and something like 90+% of the Jewish population?
According to my wife it's nothing like 90% of the Jewish population ; I defer to her judgement on the question.
My apologies, she's right, the latest poll had the figure at only 87%:
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Is this the same Ivan Rogers who thought Boris couldn't get a deal? He knows zilch.
He was right. Boris didn't 'get a deal', he caved in and went back to the original one which the EU had proposed.
He took the original deal which was a better deal and improved it.
The deal he got was not the original one. Unless in the original one NI could de jure leave the Customs Union, de facto take advantage of UK trade deals, had no backstop and had a unilateral exit that could be democratically triggered. Was all that true with the original deal?
Its bizarre that people like you seem to think May taking the NI backstop and extending it to the whole of the UK was progress. Going back to the NI backstop and then ensuring NI consent and an NI exit mechanism was real progress.
It wasn't progress, it was a different set of priorities by Boris: on the downside, stuffing the union, and making it harder to get a good trade deal; on the upside (from a cynical Boris-career point of view) buying enough time from the ERG nutjobs to win the election.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Is this the same Ivan Rogers who thought Boris couldn't get a deal? He knows zilch.
He was right. Boris didn't 'get a deal', he caved in and went back to the original one which the EU had proposed.
He took the original deal which was a better deal and improved it.
The deal he got was not the original one. Unless in the original one NI could de jure leave the Customs Union, de facto take advantage of UK trade deals, had no backstop and had a unilateral exit that could be democratically triggered. Was all that true with the original deal?
Its bizarre that people like you seem to think May taking the NI backstop and extending it to the whole of the UK was progress. Going back to the NI backstop and then ensuring NI consent and an NI exit mechanism was real progress.
It wasn't progress, it was a different set of priorities by Boris: on the downside, stuffing the union, and making it harder to get a good trade deal; on the upside (from a cynical Boris-career point of view) buying enough time from the ERG nutjobs to win the election.
Yes it was a different set of priorities. So don't claim that its the same deal, it categorically wasn't. You may consider the backstop makes it easier to get a good trade deal - nobody on our side of the debate believes you. What about democratic consent - are you opposed to that?
And the crocodile tears of the rightwing press on anti-semitism are truly a thing to behold. The Daily Mail, let's not forget, ran what was essentially an anti-semitic dog-whistle campaign against Ed Miliband's father, the Sun ran an anti-semitic bacon sandwich campaign on the eve of the election, and the Telegraph bringing up the rear with its tawdry dog-whistle campaign against Soros, on its front page, no less.
What's your cynical gloss on the views of Tom Watson, Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge, the Jewish Chronicle, and something like 90+% of the Jewish population?
According to my wife it's nothing like 90% of the Jewish population ; I defer to her judgement on the question.
My apologies, she's right, the latest poll had the figure at only 87%:
The problem with people outside the jewish community casting this in very simple terms is that there are people inside the jewish community who feel very differently about it, such as my wife , or Bercow, or Chomsky, or the "Jewish Voice for Labour" crowd, who according to my wife, differ totally on it. That's the beginning and end of my claim of knowledge on it.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
It's a sobering thought that the ICM poll from the corresponding part of the 2017 campaign showed a 19-point lead for Theresa May.
I wouldn't compare polls from this year with 2017. 2017 was the year when a large number of Remainers voted Labour because they didn't realise Jeremy Corbyn is a life-long Eurosceptic, who even today says he would remain neutral on a second referendum.
Yes it was a different set of priorities. So don't claim that its the same deal, it categorically wasn't. You may consider the backstop makes it easier to get a good trade deal - nobody on our side of the debate believes you. What about democratic consent - are you opposed to that?
It was a different set of priorities from Theresa May's, because she (despite her many faults) was trying to get the best arrangement for the country, not for her career.
As for democratic consent, I'm all in favour of the EU providing a meaningless concession to placate the nutjobs. In fact, before Boris caved in to Varadkar at the Liverpool meeting, I suggested exactly what the negotiators came up with: a theoretical get-out clause which gave Boris a pretext to claim there was an exit clause, but one which could never actually be triggered in practice.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
The Tories are clearly terrified it is going wrong
Woah, they're going to sacrifice Corbyn??? Excellent! I'll get the sharp quartz knife and the onyx altar. Now, where did I put the Book of the Rite of Sutekh?...
Sutekh is Supreme.
Bless you. I didn't know if anybody would get the reference.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
Two in one day? That’s a bit strange. Presumably just coincidence given they are in different parts of the country, but not a pleasant one.
The woman who was attacked was called a Marxist. Perhaps people shouldn't be throwing these kind of terms around and constantly raising the temperature.
If they are a Marxist of course they should be called out for it. No one is responsible for that person’s violence except the person carrying out the violence. My words are not your excuses.
If someone is left of centre in your opinion do you always call them a Marxist? Or can you actually explain yourself? Do you think this Labour leadership and manifesto are Marxist? Marxists believe in a class war to achieve a more equal society, suspicious of who appoints judiciary and military leaders, and don’t believe anyone should have a cut of profit even if they invested in the venture, can you clearly point to all that in labour leaderships dialogue and in their liberal democratic Keynesian manifesto? In reality labour has always been liberal Democratic Party as defined by its economic centre of gravity. If public ownership was left wing and Marxist rather than the result of nationalism then only extreme left wing governments would be the ones doing it?
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Is this the same Ivan Rogers who thought Boris couldn't get a deal? He knows zilch.
He was right. Boris didn't 'get a deal', he caved in and went back to the original one which the EU had proposed.
He took the original deal which was a better deal and improved it.
The deal he got was not the original one. Unless in the original one NI could de jure leave the Customs Union, de facto take advantage of UK trade deals, had no backstop and had a unilateral exit that could be democratically triggered. Was all that true with the original deal?
Its bizarre that people like you seem to think May taking the NI backstop and extending it to the whole of the UK was progress. Going back to the NI backstop and then ensuring NI consent and an NI exit mechanism was real progress.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
The only difference between the original deal - that was vetoed by the DUP - and Boris's deal is the element of consent.
The original deal that Mrs May proposed had Northern Ireland half in, half out - i.e it was in the EU Customs Union, but was also part of the UK and benefited from deals that the UK might (in theory) sign. The DUP hated it, because it put up an administrative border in the North Sea, and so Mrs May proposed keeping the whole of the UK in the Customs Union.
Now, I agree that the this deal is better than Mrs May's because it includes consent.
But I also believe that consent has always been the UK's to give. Simply, we are bound by the treaties establishing the United Nations to allow the people of Northern Ireland the right to self determination. Failing to allow them the choice of whether to stay in a customs union with the EU would of meant us being in breach of our treaty obligations. All the EU has done is make crystal clear what was always the case.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
The fact is large parts of the Jewish community are terrified of a Corbyn Government .Blair or Brown would not have allowed this to happen and it is utterly shameful that Corbyn has.
BoZo has said he will not extend, for what his promises are worth.
That gives 5 months to agree a deal. It's clearly impossible, and everyone knows it, or should do. Even if that weren't a problem, industry and the civil service need something like six months to set up practical arrangements once they know what the future relationship is going to be. You can't leave it until December to agree the future relationship and expect it all to be implemented in a couple of weeks over Christmas.
The Tories are clearly terrified it is going wrong
Woah, they're going to sacrifice Corbyn??? Excellent! I'll get the sharp quartz knife and the onyx altar. Now, where did I put the Book of the Rite of Sutekh?...
Sutekh is Supreme.
Bless you. I didn't know if anybody would get the reference.
Dress him up as a sheep and have him roam the new forest?
BoZo has said he will not extend, for what his promises are worth.
If Boris asked for an extension on 20 December 2020, they would be able to push through a codicil to the treaty allowing for an extension to be requested at a later date. It would be trivial.
Yes it was a different set of priorities. So don't claim that its the same deal, it categorically wasn't. You may consider the backstop makes it easier to get a good trade deal - nobody on our side of the debate believes you. What about democratic consent - are you opposed to that?
It was a different set of priorities from Theresa May's, because she (despite her many faults) was trying to get the best arrangement for the country, not for her career.
As for democratic consent, I'm all in favour of the EU providing a meaningless concession to placate the nutjobs. In fact, before Boris caved in to Varadkar at the Liverpool meeting, I suggested exactly what the negotiators came up with: a theoretical get-out clause which gave Boris a pretext to claim there was an exit clause, but one which could never actually be triggered in practice.
I think you'll find her career was dependent upon not pissing off the DUP. You can't separate the two.
It can be triggered, if a majority of NI voters vote for parties wanting to trigger it. If a majority of NI voters don't want to vote to trigger it then that is democracy in action.
And if its so easy, why didn't May go for this solution? Reality is this was a better, more democratic solution and Boris went for it and May did not. Just because May failed to go for this but could have doesn't change that.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
It's not the same, because many jews are secular, as an ethnicity as well as a religion, and the more secular, reportedly the less keen to be surveyed as jews.
Hence - reporting on from my wife again, which I know is getting a bit tiresome as a proviso - surveys of jewish opinion tend to be skewed to the right, and jewish community leaders, rather than public intellectuals, tend to be skewed to the religious right.
Two in one day? That’s a bit strange. Presumably just coincidence given they are in different parts of the country, but not a pleasant one.
The woman who was attacked was called a Marxist. Perhaps people shouldn't be throwing these kind of terms around and constantly raising the temperature.
If they are a Marxist of course they should be called out for it. No one is responsible for that person’s violence except the person carrying out the violence. My words are not your excuses.
If someone is left of centre in your opinion do you always call them a Marxist? Or can you actually explain yourself? Do you think this Labour leadership and manifesto are Marxist? Marxists believe in a class war to achieve a more equal society, suspicious of who appoints judiciary and military leaders, and don’t believe anyone should have a cut of profit even if they invested in the venture, can you clearly point to all that in labour leaderships dialogue and in their liberal democratic Keynesian manifesto? In reality labour has always been liberal Democratic Party as defined by its economic centre of gravity. If public ownership was left wing and Marxist rather than the result of nationalism then only extreme left wing governments would be the ones doing it?
Yes that does sum up this Labour Party.
And there is nothing Keynesian about Labour. Keynesian economics proposes reducing debt in times of growth not increasing it - where in Labour's policies is the proposal to reduce debt?
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
It's not the same, because many jews are secular, as an ethnicity as well as a religion, and the more secular, reportedly the less keen to be surveyed as jews.
Hence - reporting on from my wife again, which I know is getting a bit tiresome as a proviso - surveys of jewish opinion tend to be skewed to the right, and jewish community leaders, rather than public intellectuals, tend to be skewed to the religious right.
None of which excludes the fa t he is intervening as 'primate' of the faith in this country to express the fear in his community. It is a disgrace and a shameful thing and Corbyn is up to his neck in the garbage and cancer in labour that push this evil.
On a more important topic: can we please undo the latest 'upgrade' from Vanilla? How hard can it possibly be for them to produce software which doesn't keep screwing up the formatting of plain text which worked perfectly well yesterday?
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
What plausible alternative do you propose?
EEA/EFTA for 5 years, with a vote at that point to either rejoin or to diverge further.
I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening.
The whole of Brexit has become a religious affair, and can only be resolved by the extinction of one or other side.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
The fact is large parts of the Jewish community are terrified of a Corbyn Government .Blair or Brown would not have allowed this to happen and it is utterly shameful that Corbyn has.
Watched NSturgeon vs ANeil. I thought she coped very well to begin with, it wasn't a walkover. Crashed and burned by the end. If he goes that hard on Corbyn (and to be honest, Boris), the results will be *interesting*.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
It's not the same, because many jews are secular, as an ethnicity as well as a religion, and the more secular, reportedly the less keen to be surveyed as jews.
Hence - reporting on from my wife again, which I know is getting a bit tiresome as a proviso - surveys of jewish opinion tend to be skewed to the right, and jewish community leaders, rather than public intellectuals, tend to be skewed to the religious right.
Indeed, and one characteristic of rabbinical culture has been furious disagreement and argument. The idea that one rabbi speaks for the community is inherently un-Jewish.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
The sort of a la mode defeatist, Millenarian bullshit that is so so tiresome I could eat my own face. Why is Brexit a "hole we cannot escape"? Don't conflate the notion with the failings of those tasked with carrying it out. If Boris wins a majority in a fortnight and subsequently passes the Withdrawal Agreement, the first stage of the two-part Brexit process is over and both parties can then crack on with the trade deal. Bloody misery guys on here!
BoZo has said he will not extend, for what his promises are worth.
That gives 5 months to agree a deal. It's clearly impossible, and everyone knows it, or should do. Even if that weren't a problem, industry and the civil service need something like six months to set up practical arrangements once they know what the future relationship is going to be. You can't leave it until December to agree the future relationship and expect it all to be implemented in a couple of weeks over Christmas.
Its not impossible. Once we have agreed a proposal it can be repaidly transitioned into from the transition even before formal ratification is complete.
Indeed Boris's prior proposal of the GATT option as an alternative to the Withdrawal Agreement comes into play once we are in the Withdrawal Agreement is in place and we have an outline of an FTA in place. Remember that only takes the EU to agree to it and while the EU wouldn't agree to it before because they wanted locking down a solution for Ireland, citizen's rights and money . . . now they have that and they want a trade deal, they're no longer looking for a withdrawal agreement.
If in six months the UK and EU have agreed the outline of a deal and agree to implement that GATT provision then six months later we can go into that.
Watched NSturgeon vs ANeil. I thought she coped very well to begin with, it wasn't a walkover. Crashed and burned by the end. If he goes that hard on Corbyn (and to be honest, Boris), the results will be *interesting*.
I’ve only seen snippets but I’ve never seen Sturgeon look so panicked.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
He is the chief Rabbi ffs. What a sad and tragically laughable character you have become.
Watched NSturgeon vs ANeil. I thought she coped very well to begin with, it wasn't a walkover. Crashed and burned by the end. If he goes that hard on Corbyn (and to be honest, Boris), the results will be *interesting*.
I’ve only seen snippets but I’ve never seen Sturgeon look so panicked.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
What plausible alternative do you propose?
EEA/EFTA for 5 years, with a vote at that point to either rejoin or to diverge further.
I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening.
The whole of Brexit has become a religious affair, and can only be resolved by the extinction of one or other side.
That’s precisely what I’d want (provided it was just that and no silly CU) absent the potential vote for rejoining. But I could live with that.
The thing is, it was such an obvious compromise in 2016 and moderate leavers and remainers should have Come together and made it happen. I blame Theresa May for killing it with her obsession over freedom of movement.
Edit - what the fuck has happened to paragraph spacing? Together with the quotes it’s making this unreadable.
Labour's handling of anti-Semitism crisis comes blasting back into the campaign - chief Rabbi demands 'every person vote with their conscience' and suggests Corbyn not fit for office
Unprecedented for the leader of a major religious group in UK to make this kind of statement in a General Election campaign - and to feel the need to do so - Labour says they have worked extremely hard to combat the problem and Corbyn has fought racism all his life
If the media pick up this story and run with it tomorrow it could have some legs
It would have more legs if they could name some more names who have said something anti Semite or defended someone who was. It’s just a general partisan smear otherwise, amongst all the other ones. It always stops short of saying $ is anti Semite because. Corbyn? McDonnell? Wrong Bailey? Poppycock or whatever her name is? Starmer? Red Len? You must mean Red Jon leader of momentum, but hang on, he’s a Jew. Is it helping Tory’s have the big solid poll lead that ain’t closing, or without those scandalous specifics and more detail, is it actually barely playing? There is a Palestinian v Israel bias, and chief Rabbi and Labour seem to be on opposite sides of that bias. And it is sad, for those of us who think having such a bias is a blocker on actually hearing about what will sort the conflict out. Can Labour with that bias actually be in position to mediate and make the worst of the situation over there better if they get in? Not in my opinion.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
We should ask the British people, which community would they prefer to just leave the country.
So bloody proud of this, Lady Hale is going to stand up to the Chinese Government like she did with ours. Hurrah for our brilliant judiciary. Baroness Hale of Richmond, the president of the Supreme Court, will sit for a month in Hong Kong’s highest court as the former colony’s judiciary attempts to demonstrate its independence from Beijing.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
Oh it's play the man not the ball time again is it? Disgraceful.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
Now Jews are being told who speaks for us and who doesn't. The reality is 80% of British Jews feel Corbyn is anti-Semitic and 50% are considering emigrating over it. So this "he doesn't represent the belief of British Jews" line is bullshit.
He took the original deal which was a better deal and improved it.
The deal he got was not the original one. Unless in the original one NI could de jure leave the Customs Union, de facto take advantage of UK trade deals, had no backstop and had a unilateral exit that could be democratically triggered. Was all that true with the original deal?
Its bizarre that people like you seem to think May taking the NI backstop and extending it to the whole of the UK was progress. Going back to the NI backstop and then ensuring NI consent and an NI exit mechanism was real progress.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
The only difference between the original deal - that was vetoed by the DUP - and Boris's deal is the element of consent.
The original deal that Mrs May proposed had Northern Ireland half in, half out - i.e it was in the EU Customs Union, but was also part of the UK and benefited from deals that the UK might (in theory) sign. The DUP hated it, because it put up an administrative border in the North Sea, and so Mrs May proposed keeping the whole of the UK in the Customs Union.
Now, I agree that the this deal is better than Mrs May's because it includes consent.
But I also believe that consent has always been the UK's to give. Simply, we are bound by the treaties establishing the United Nations to allow the people of Northern Ireland the right to self determination. Failing to allow them the choice of whether to stay in a customs union with the EU would of meant us being in breach of our treaty obligations. All the EU has done is make crystal clear what was always the case.
I'm sorry but you are wrong. Consent matters and while we could have abrogated from the Withdrawal Agreement claiming self-determination that would have meant burning our bridges immediately with the EU. Like immediately leaping into a No Deal scenario.
The EU did not always accept the case that NI had self-determination on this. Quite the opposite, the mantra repeated constantly was that a backstop with a unilateral exit was no backstop. Getting this agreed was major progress - now if NI votes to trigger the end of the agreement we won't be burning our bridges with the EU anymore, they've already accepted that.
Yes the DUP hated having NI half-in, half-out. So frigging what!? The whole basis of the Good Friday Agreement was that NI was half-in, half-out all along and the DUP hated that too. I hate to make appeals to authority but even David Trimble opposed May's deal but has backed Boris's. That's because the changes do matter.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
Now Jews are being told who speaks for us and who doesn't. The reality is 80% of British Jews feel Corbyn is anti-Semitic and 50% are considering emigrating over it. So this "he doesn't represent the belief of British Jews" line is bullshit.
But here again is an internal conflict. Both you and Roger have described yourselves as Jewish posters. Jon Lansman of Momentum and Corbyn-tolerant Ed Miliband are as Jewish as Ephraim Murvis and Maureen Lipman.
There is something insufficient in the over-simplified public depiction of this issue.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
Now Jews are being told who speaks for us and who doesn't. The reality is 80% of British Jews feel Corbyn is anti-Semitic and 50% are considering emigrating over it. So this "he doesn't represent the belief of British Jews" line is bullshit.
You're no more Jewish than I am. If you think 50% of Jews are thinking of emigrating I don't believe you're Jewish at all because a simpe conversation with friends and family would confirm what a ridiculous claim it is.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
What plausible alternative do you propose?
EEA/EFTA for 5 years, with a vote at that point to either rejoin or to diverge further.
I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening.
The whole of Brexit has become a religious affair, and can only be resolved by the extinction of one or other side.
Agreed. It really is the Reformation
I also agree on EEA/EFTA. The obvious compromise position. And the Brits used to be good at that. What has become of us?
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
It's not the same, because many jews are secular, as an ethnicity as well as a religion, and the more secular, reportedly the less keen to be surveyed as jews.
Hence - reporting on from my wife again, which I know is getting a bit tiresome as a proviso - surveys of jewish opinion tend to be skewed to the right, and jewish community leaders, rather than public intellectuals, tend to be skewed to the religious right.
Indeed, and one characteristic of rabbinical culture has been furious disagreement and argument. The idea that one rabbi speaks for the community is inherently un-Jewish.
There is nearly four thousand years' tradition of a single Jewish leader for political matters, stemming back to Moses.
You're no more Jewish than I am. If you think 50% of Jews are thinking of emigrating I don't believe you're Jewish at all because a simpe conversation with friends and family would confirm what a ridiculous claim it is.
Ahem, nothing to see here, obv:
Shockingly, nearly half (47 percent) said they would “seriously consider” emigrating if Corbyn won. When it comes to perceptions about party leaders, 87 percent deemed the Labour leader to be antisemitic, 32 percent believe Nigel Farage to be antisemitic, with five percent saying the same of both Boris Johnson and Jo Swinson.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
What plausible alternative do you propose?
EEA/EFTA for 5 years, with a vote at that point to either rejoin or to diverge further.
I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening.
The whole of Brexit has become a religious affair, and can only be resolved by the extinction of one or other side.
Agreed. It really is the Reformation
I also agree on EEA/EFTA. The obvious compromise position. And the Brits used to be good at that. What has become of us?
Social media in general and twatter in particular is the destroyer of compromise.
There appears to be some confusion. The chief rabbinate does not represent "British Jews" as an entire group. It is a fact that the chief rabbinate is an Orthodox institution and it is almost certain that is represents most, though not a large majority, of Britain's Orthodox Jews. It is therefore a little more representative of British Jews than a cardinal would be of British Christians - i.e., possibly most.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
Oh it's play the man not the ball time again is it? Disgraceful.
He's claiming to speak for 250,000 people. I think anyone has the right to question where that authority comes from without being accused of playing the man and not the ball.
From the little polling we’ve seen since Corbyns neutral EU ref stance was confirmed it clearly hasn’t hurt him . Although the waters have been muddled somewhat due to the Waspi announcement .
The effect of the Waspi announcement will be very hard to quantify unless pollsters ask specific questions about it . You have the 3.8 million women effected , their partners/husbands .
On the face of it the policy looks very cynical , although the pledge to help was in the manifesto . There was no mention of any costing.
It wasn’t till Johnson ruled out any help that Labour decided to go with this policy .
I think Labour might get away with this because it’s not the same as suddenly declaring a tax cut pledge or other big offer . The moral duty to help and right an injustice makes it difficult for the Tories to attack , because by extension they are then attacking those women .
Whether one believes there has been injustice doesn’t really matter to observers it’s what the women feel that’s important .
Tomorrow Labour are launching their 7 point pledge for over 65s . From what I’ve seen of this it looks good .
The Tories huge lead in the over 65 vote , and big lead in the 50 to 64 is really their firewall . If that holds then they should get a decent majority .
However if the Waspi policy proves popular and they can eat into that big lead the Tories have with over 65s then the polls might tighten more widely .
As a Labour supporter I very much hope that will happen but until we see more than just the ICM poll then there’s a danger of reading too much into that .
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
We should ask the British people, which community would they prefer to just leave the country.
Muslims or Jews?
The results might be diverting.
That would be an interesting question. The answer would probably split on geographical lines.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
What plausible alternative do you propose?
EEA/EFTA for 5 years, with a vote at that point to either rejoin or to diverge further.
I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening.
The whole of Brexit has become a religious affair, and can only be resolved by the extinction of one or other side.
Agreed. It really is the Reformation
I also agree on EEA/EFTA. The obvious compromise position. And the Brits used to be good at that. What has become of us?
Social media in general and twatter in particular is the destroyer of compromise.
Of course the Reformation saw a century or so of warfare as both Protestants and Catholics tried to win comprehensively, and ultimately both had to accept a compromise in the end, meaning all that death and slaughter was pointless.
Watched NSturgeon vs ANeil. I thought she coped very well to begin with, it wasn't a walkover. Crashed and burned by the end. If he goes that hard on Corbyn (and to be honest, Boris), the results will be *interesting*.
I’ve only seen snippets but I’ve never seen Sturgeon look so panicked.
Which issues discombobulated her?
No confirmatory referendum on the independence deal with RUK was pretty bad. 80,000 job losses predicted from Brexit but none from indy was pretty bad. NHS was the coup de gras. She did pretty well when not defending the utterly indefensible. She put up a good fight, but won't be booking another one soon.
Fact. He spent his time until the collapse of apartheid in South Africa then he moved to Israel. He is flying the flag for Israel no more no less. Corbyn as is widely know is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and was virulently anti apartheid. They were never going to be political soul mates.
Fact, he is speaking out on behalf of all Jewish people in the UK the way the Arch of Cant would be for all anglicans if he spoke out on an issue. This is in his capacity as shepherd of his flock not a personal opinion of his. Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
He has no authority to speak on behalf of all British Jews because he wasn't voted into his position and he isn't British. I'd be surprised if one in ten Jews have even heard of him.
Oh it's play the man not the ball time again is it? Disgraceful.
He's claiming to speak for 250,000 people. I think anyone has the right to question where that authority comes from without being accused of playing the man and not the ball.
I suggest you ask yourself this question instead of hiding behind a false paper shield.Assuming the Chief Rabbi is representative of Jews in this country what does that say to me about Corbyn and Labour?
There appears to be some confusion. The chief rabbinate does not represent "British Jews" as an entire group. It is a fact that the chief rabbinate is an Orthodox institution and it is almost certain that is represents most, though not a large majority, of Britain's Orthodox Jews. It is therefore a little more representative of British Jews than a cardinal would be of British Christians - i.e., possibly most.
+1
I think it's worth adding that he represents the majority of those affiliated to an Orthodox institution. It is, necessarily, quite hard to find a way of representing those who are not affiliated.
It's also clearly the case that the affiliated have far more to fear than the unaffiliated from a Corbyn government - eg those concerned about greater tolerance for public displays of anti-Semitism targeted at people who are identifiable as Jewish. I suspect this goes some way to explaining the Jon Lansman/Ed Miliband vs Maureen Lipman debate below.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
That is an excellent post. You've hit the nail on the head and answered a question that's been bugging me. What is it that doesn't work in a line that should be catchy? It's not positive. All call to arms lines are upbeat but this one isn't. It's flat and getting flatter. By now I'm almost allergic to it.
From the little polling we’ve seen since Corbyns neutral EU ref stance was confirmed it clearly hasn’t hurt him . Although the waters have been muddled somewhat due to the Waspi announcement .
The effect of the Waspi announcement will be very hard to quantify unless pollsters ask specific questions about it . You have the 3.8 million women effected , their partners/husbands .
On the face of it the policy looks very cynical , although the pledge to help was in the manifesto . There was no mention of any costing.
It wasn’t till Johnson ruled out any help that Labour decided to go with this policy .
I think Labour might get away with this because it’s not the same as suddenly declaring a tax cut pledge or other big offer . The moral duty to help and right an injustice makes it difficult for the Tories to attack , because by extension they are then attacking those women .
Whether one believes there has been injustice doesn’t really matter to observers it’s what the women feel that’s important .
Tomorrow Labour are launching their 7 point pledge for over 65s . From what I’ve seen of this it looks good .
The Tories huge lead in the over 65 vote , and big lead in the 50 to 64 is really their firewall . If that holds then they should get a decent majority .
However if the Waspi policy proves popular and they can eat into that big lead the Tories have with over 65s then the polls might tighten more widely .
As a Labour supporter I very much hope that will happen but until we see more than just the ICM poll then there’s a danger of reading too much into that .
It’s incredibly easy to take apart the WASPI thing with detailed questioning. What is the basis for saying somebody born in 1959 suffered an “injustice” but somebody in 1960 didn’t? (and note they are not using the 2011 change as the basis for the £58 billion pledge - it is the full 1995 figure) If 25 years warning of the change wasn’t sufficient what time period would have been? What basis have you got for overruling the High Court? Have other “injustices” are out there that you are prepared to fund out of “contingencies” (as if this, nonsensically, has no consequence for funding of other priorities).
Unfortunately our political system these days allows very little time for detailed questioning.
It’s incredible to think that ED Miliband’s financial plans were considered irresponsible and unaffordable in 2015. Labour’s declared plans probably dwarf those 100 fold.
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
Not for the first time, Brexit reminds me of Dunkirk.
There appears to be some confusion. The chief rabbinate does not represent "British Jews" as an entire group. It is a fact that the chief rabbinate is an Orthodox institution and it is almost certain that is represents most, though not a large majority, of Britain's Orthodox Jews. It is therefore a little more representative of British Jews than a cardinal would be of British Christians - i.e., possibly most.
+1
I think it's worth adding that he represents the majority of those affiliated to an Orthodox institution. It is, necessarily, quite hard to find a way of representing those who are not affiliated.
It's also clearly the case that the affiliated have far more to fear than the unaffiliated from a Corbyn government - eg those concerned about greater tolerance for public displays of anti-Semitism targeted at people who are identifiable as Jewish. I suspect this goes some way to explaining the Jon Lansman/Ed Miliband vs Maureen Lipman debate below.
Yeah. There are a lot of complexities not worth going into for a general audience. I would agree that the middle conclusion is fairly evident. I would only add further that religious affiliation nowadays seems partly caused by conscience and political beliefs - which I suppose is also true in the Catholic church - complicating that latter question because we can't just say politician X's religious stance informed their political stance.
There appears to be some confusion. The chief rabbinate does not represent "British Jews" as an entire group. It is a fact that the chief rabbinate is an Orthodox institution and it is almost certain that is represents most, though not a large majority, of Britain's Orthodox Jews. It is therefore a little more representative of British Jews than a cardinal would be of British Christians - i.e., possibly most.
+1
I think it's worth adding that he represents the majority of those affiliated to an Orthodox institution. It is, necessarily, quite hard to find a way of representing those who are not affiliated.
It's also clearly the case that the affiliated have far more to fear than the unaffiliated from a Corbyn government - eg those concerned about greater tolerance for public displays of anti-Semitism targeted at people who are identifiable as Jewish. I suspect this goes some way to explaining the Jon Lansman/Ed Miliband vs Maureen Lipman debate below.
What exactly should we be fearing? Would we have to wear yellow stars or would it be more subtle? Maybe there will be a Jewish tax. One which only applies to Jews? Perhaps Jews could only live in certain aeas? Apparently 50% of Jews are so fearful of 'something' that they are planning on leaving their homeland and going to live we know not where. So could someone with the ear of the chief rabbi please let us know.
Watched NSturgeon vs ANeil. I thought she coped very well to begin with, it wasn't a walkover. Crashed and burned by the end. If he goes that hard on Corbyn (and to be honest, Boris), the results will be *interesting*.
Neil is a class act- he eviscerated her and no doubt will do the others too
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
What plausible alternative do you propose?
EEA/EFTA for 5 years, with a vote at that point to either rejoin or to diverge further.
I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening.
The whole of Brexit has become a religious affair, and can only be resolved by the extinction of one or other side.
Agreed. It really is the Reformation
I also agree on EEA/EFTA. The obvious compromise position. And the Brits used to be good at that. What has become of us?
It's one of the potential solutions I've been suggesting for a while (with a whatever-it-takes commitment for Northern Ireland). I think that a clear 10-year commitment to EFTA would be better: let a whole political cycle pass without Brexit being an issue in play.
We could convene Citizens Assemblies in the interim to discuss what the true meaning of the referendum was, and what the best course of action at the end of the 10 years would be (rejoin / diverge / remain in Norway status).
The hardest part to solve is the culture war that manifests itself through the Leave/Remain divide: we already have entrenched positions. Perhaps 10 years of relative calm (yes, I know there's a global recession coming), and demographics, might take the sting out of it.
Sadly the UK is way too politically unsophisticated for any of this to happen. We must have our elective dictatorships, and our adversarial politics, and our culture war.
It gets to the point though where we know full well what people actually want to happen - and that's Corbyn standing down.
Nothing he does will ever be good enough, the media have spent the last three years using racism as a means to score cheap political points and we know this because every time an Islamophobia issue appears it gets ignored. Boris Johnson is allowed to ignore the issue and put off an investigation and lie about it - yet Corbyn takes action and apologises and is villified.
We get some random Twitter user claiming there are "130" cases outstanding, despite not being on the NEC and not having the ability to get what is confidential information that he wouldn't have.
And yet Boris Johnson says he's afraid of a group of black people and gets away with it, again.
If you hate racism like I do, you'll know full well something stinks here.
Yes, something does stink here.
Yes, Jeremy Corbyn and his defenders who don't care about racism as long as it is card carrying socialists doing it.
No but there are many varieties of racism around. Corbyn has spent all his life fighting against it. Unlike Johnson.
The 'Jewish Community' would do far better to put a sock in it. They're going to get the rest pretty peed off if they keep up this hysteria.
I’ve asked several times but never had an answer. What is the evidence of Corbyn fighting all his life against racism? What has he done? What campaigns has he led? What achievements in the field of anti-racism can he (or his supporters) tell us about. What legislation has he introduced via a Private Members’ Bill, for instance?
Note the comments on the EU's position, on Corbyn, and on those who think we can simply unwind Brexit.
Yes, utterly withering. It's fair to say that the government's entire Brexit strategy centred on providing Boris with some general-election slogans. Nothing else. The next couple of years are going to be politically horrific, and it will interesting to see if Boris even survives.
Yes but it's not just Boris. Labour, the LibDems, and the EU are all fantasising.
Yep, Brexit is that hole that we cannot escape, and keep furiously digging deeper.
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
Not for the first time, Brexit reminds me of Dunkirk.
Running away from a European foe who inexplicably left our forces largely intact, while signifcant quantities of materiel was left on the continent?
There appears to be some confusion. The chief rabbinate does not represent "British Jews" as an entire group. It is a fact that the chief rabbinate is an Orthodox institution and it is almost certain that is represents most, though not a large majority, of Britain's Orthodox Jews. It is therefore a little more representative of British Jews than a cardinal would be of British Christians - i.e., possibly most.
+1
I think it's worth adding that he represents the majority of those affiliated to an Orthodox institution. It is, necessarily, quite hard to find a way of representing those who are not affiliated.
It's also clearly the case that the affiliated have far more to fear than the unaffiliated from a Corbyn government - eg those concerned about greater tolerance for public displays of anti-Semitism targeted at people who are identifiable as Jewish. I suspect this goes some way to explaining the Jon Lansman/Ed Miliband vs Maureen Lipman debate below.
What exactly should we be fearing? Would we have to wear yellow stars or would it be more subtle? Maybe there will be a Jewish tax. One which only applies to Jews? Perhaps Jews could only live in certain aeas? Apparently 50% of Jews are so fearful of 'something' that they are planning on leaving their homeland and going to live we know not where. So could someone with the ear of the chief rabbi please let us know.
As I already said, greater societal tolerance for public displays of anti-Semitism towards people identifiable as Jewish. Which is already manifesting in increased reporting of anti-Semitic incidents in recent years. The fear is that election of a Prime Minister who is, at best, ambivalent towards such acts when masked by pretence that it is somehow related to Israel/Palestine would exacerbate this trend.
Tonight has been one of the most unappetising discussions for a while with such open hate and nastiness on display
It saddens me greatly and to that end I am going to have a cuppa and go aloft
I have no idea how this pans out and I fear it is not going to improve quickly
Maybe tomorrow we could all have a bit more respect to each other but who knows
Good night folks
The sad thing is the hypocrisy from Labour supporters. We all do the same and excuse those we support more than those we don’t. But anti Semitism within Labour is a different order event
- Labour are supposed to be against racism - This racism in Labour runs through the heart of the left of the Labour Party. FFS their own MPs who have remained in the party are targeted. Many Jewish MPs have left the party. One called on voters to vote Tory such is the shame. - The people involved are the leadership, or are supported by the leadership. The leadership has been shown to try and influence disciplinary proceedings in the area. - the EHRC are investigating individual and institutional Antisemitism in the Labour Party - The long established Jewish labour movement are refusing to support the party for the first time in this election
That is quite a charge sheet. For the labour supporters on here who would normally jump to defend the party just think how you would feel if above instead of Labour it said conservative. Would you be reaching for the dictionary to redefine what has been said? Would you be questioning the accusers motives? Would you be giving the benefit of the doubt?
And before the infantile finger pointing at other parties starts again (seriously it’s like listening to my primary school aged children) of course there is isolated racism in other parties. Boris uses clumsy characterisation in all areas so obviously he has strayed into casual racism. There are Tory anti Muslim activists and councillors around the country. The party I support had David Ward pandering to anti Semitism in Bradford to get elected before being rightly kicked out. These are isolated incidents.
Look at the make up of those serving in Government - two of the great offices of state are filled by British Asians. Is that the way of a racist party? Where are the Jews willing to serve under Corbyn?
Shame on the Labour Party most of all because when we have a clown prime minister the LOTO we are offered not only doesn’t have a view on Brexit, but doesn’t have the backbone to stand up to the Anti semites close to him, seems to lack the intelligence to distinguish between legitimate criticism of the state of Israel and Antisemitism (British Jews are lesser because they can’t understand British irony), and cannot lead the party to deal with it administratively within the party structures.
Back in 1942 a British civil servant wrote, about the reports the British government was receiving about German persecution of Jews, that nothing of the kind was happening; this was all “hysteria” by “wailing Jews”. To read some of the posts tonight, some by posters who don’t even live here, is to read a repeat of that civil servant’s mindset. Any concerns by Jews are apparently unreal, hysterical, not put in context or no worse than what others suffer. Or worse they lead to some rethinking their views about Jews and their “agenda”; complaints by Jews are the reason why some people are anti-Jewish - if only they would be quiet no-one would hate them. The idea that the fears might be real, that some understanding of why they exist, some empathy with people who have good reason for feeling concerned when a long-standing prejudice is revived might be worthwhile seems wholly foreign to these posters. It is a dismal sight, to say the least. Some people really do need take a good long hard look at themselves.
Back in 1942 a British civil servant wrote, about the reports the British government was receiving about German persecution of Jews, that nothing of the kind was happening; this was all “hysteria” by “wailing Jews”. To read some of the posts tonight, some by posters who don’t even live here, is to read a repeat of that civil servant’s mindset. Any concerns by Jews are apparently unreal, hysterical, not put in context or no worse than what others suffer. Or worse they lead to some rethinking their views about Jews and their “agenda”; complaints by Jews are the reason why some people are anti-Jewish - if only they would be quiet no-one would hate them. The idea that the fears might be real, that some understanding of why they exist, some empathy with people who have good reason for feeling concerned when a long-standing prejudice is revived might be worthwhile seems wholly foreign to these posters. It is a dismal sight, to say the least. Some people really do need take a good long hard look at themselves.
This week has seen a Jewish family harangued on a train and Jewish children attacked on a bus so perhaps then, there is increased antisemitism, or maybe (we can hope) these were isolated incidents. Whether there is any connection to the Labour Party is not obvious. I am not convinced the Chief Rabbi has found the right target.
It gets to the point though where we know full well what people actually want to happen - and that's Corbyn standing down.
Nothing he does will ever be good enough, the media have spent the last three years using racism as a means to score cheap political points and we know this because every time an Islamophobia issue appears it gets ignored. Boris Johnson is allowed to ignore the issue and put off an investigation and lie about it - yet Corbyn takes action and apologises and is villified.
We get some random Twitter user claiming there are "130" cases outstanding, despite not being on the NEC and not having the ability to get what is confidential information that he wouldn't have.
And yet Boris Johnson says he's afraid of a group of black people and gets away with it, again.
If you hate racism like I do, you'll know full well something stinks here.
Yes, something does stink here.
Yes, Jeremy Corbyn and his defenders who don't care about racism as long as it is card carrying socialists doing it.
No but there are many varieties of racism around. Corbyn has spent all his life fighting against it. Unlike Johnson.
The 'Jewish Community' would do far better to put a sock in it. They're going to get the rest pretty peed off if they keep up this hysteria.
I’ve asked several times but never had an answer. What is the evidence of Corbyn fighting all his life against racism? What has he done? What campaigns has he led? What achievements in the field of anti-racism can he (or his supporters) tell us about. What legislation has he introduced via a Private Members’ Bill, for instance?
Etc etc.....
There is certainly a well-known photograph of Jeremy Corbyn being arrested at an anti-apartheid demonstration. Whether he has led any campaigns, I do not know; perhaps if he had we'd have been told.
Back in 1942 a British civil servant wrote, about the reports the British government was receiving about German persecution of Jews, that nothing of the kind was happening; this was all “hysteria” by “wailing Jews”. To read some of the posts tonight, some by posters who don’t even live here, is to read a repeat of that civil servant’s mindset. Any concerns by Jews are apparently unreal, hysterical, not put in context or no worse than what others suffer. Or worse they lead to some rethinking their views about Jews and their “agenda”; complaints by Jews are the reason why some people are anti-Jewish - if only they would be quiet no-one would hate them. The idea that the fears might be real, that some understanding of why they exist, some empathy with people who have good reason for feeling concerned when a long-standing prejudice is revived might be worthwhile seems wholly foreign to these posters. It is a dismal sight, to say the least. Some people really do need take a good long hard look at themselves.
This week has seen a Jewish family harangued on a train and Jewish children attacked on a bus so perhaps then, there is increased antisemitism, or maybe (we can hope) these were isolated incidents. Whether there is any connection to the Labour Party is not obvious. I am not convinced the Chief Rabbi has found the right target.
Why then do you think the EHRC is investigating the Labour Party? Why have so many Labour members and MPs complained about their party’s failures and inadequacies in this regard? Are they making it up? Or is it possible that there is some very real basis for their concerns? (And to be clear I am well aware that anti-semitism comes from the right too and is equally to be condemned when it does do.)
There are a lot of LD gains in there that I think are pretty unlikely, particualarly in the South West of England. A more likely scenario is that a few of the London and the SE seats come in from the Conservatives, while the LDs regain a few of the Labour Remain seats.
I suspect that the LDs will get a load of good second places, which will come in handly in the inevitable 2021 General Election.
It gets to the point though where we know full well what people actually want to happen - and that's Corbyn standing down.
Nothing he does will ever be good enough, the media have spent the last three years using racism as a means to score cheap political points and we know this because every time an Islamophobia issue appears it gets ignored. Boris Johnson is allowed to ignore the issue and put off an investigation and lie about it - yet Corbyn takes action and apologises and is villified.
We get some random Twitter user claiming there are "130" cases outstanding, despite not being on the NEC and not having the ability to get what is confidential information that he wouldn't have.
And yet Boris Johnson says he's afraid of a group of black people and gets away with it, again.
If you hate racism like I do, you'll know full well something stinks here.
Yes, something does stink here.
Yes, Jeremy Corbyn and his defenders who don't care about racism as long as it is card carrying socialists doing it.
No but there are many varieties of racism around. Corbyn has spent all his life fighting against it. Unlike Johnson.
The 'Jewish Community' would do far better to put a sock in it. They're going to get the rest pretty peed off if they keep up this hysteria.
I’ve asked several times but never had an answer. What is the evidence of Corbyn fighting all his life against racism? What has he done? What campaigns has he led? What achievements in the field of anti-racism can he (or his supporters) tell us about. What legislation has he introduced via a Private Members’ Bill, for instance?
Etc etc.....
There is certainly a well-known photograph of Jeremy Corbyn being arrested at an anti-apartheid demonstration. Whether he has led any campaigns, I do not know; perhaps if he had we'd have been told.
Nelson Mandela rejected the help of Corbyn in the anti-apartheid battle. So, I repeat my question. What evidence is there? Do you know, I am beginning to wonder whether there is any actual evidence for his claims. I am beginning to think that the mere assertion of moral virtue is all the evidence needed. If Corbyn says he has fought racism all his life it is spectacularly impolite to ask him for proof of the actions he has taken which demonstrate this. Facts are simply too vulgar for such people.
I’ve asked several times but never had an answer. What is the evidence of Corbyn fighting all his life against racism? What has he done? What campaigns has he led? What achievements in the field of anti-racism can he (or his supporters) tell us about. What legislation has he introduced via a Private Members’ Bill, for instance?
Etc etc.....
There is certainly a well-known photograph of Jeremy Corbyn being arrested at an anti-apartheid demonstration. Whether he has led any campaigns, I do not know; perhaps if he had we'd have been told.
Nelson Mandela rejected the help of Corbyn in the anti-apartheid battle. So, I repeat my question. What evidence is there? Do you know, I am beginning to wonder whether there is any actual evidence for his claims. I am beginning to think that the mere assertion of moral virtue is all the evidence needed. If Corbyn says he has fought racism all his life it is spectacularly impolite to ask him for proof of the actions he has taken which demonstrate this. Facts are simply too vulgar for such people.
As I have just said, Corbyn was photographed demonstrating against apartheid. That is evidence. Corbyn is also known to have demonstrated against the National Front. That is also evidence. Now, whether that makes Corbyn an effective campaigner rather than someone who'd join any passing demo for a fashionable cause can be questioned, but surely the answer to the original question is yes, there is evidence.
Back in 1942 a British civil servant wrote, about the reports the British government was receiving about German persecution of Jews, that nothing of the kind was happening; this was all “hysteria” by “wailing Jews”. To read some of the posts tonight, some by posters who don’t even live here, is to read a repeat of that civil servant’s mindset. Any concerns by Jews are apparently unreal, hysterical, not put in context or no worse than what others suffer. Or worse they lead to some rethinking their views about Jews and their “agenda”; complaints by Jews are the reason why some people are anti-Jewish - if only they would be quiet no-one would hate them. The idea that the fears might be real, that some understanding of why they exist, some empathy with people who have good reason for feeling concerned when a long-standing prejudice is revived might be worthwhile seems wholly foreign to these posters. It is a dismal sight, to say the least. Some people really do need take a good long hard look at themselves.
Totally agree. Annoyingly we are at the stage of an election where any criticism of any politician leads to a pile on from their support. Things which need addressing get demonised (dementia tax), things which in retrospect may have been good get sloganned out of existence (coalition of chaos), things of inconsequence get magnified (pothole fund) and we get bribed with our own money (entire labour manifesto), fantasy becomes reality (billionaires will pay their taxes here rather than buggering off, companies will absorb tax hikes without job losses) and reality becomes a catchphrase (get Brexit done, Brexit means Brexit, for the many not the few). You have to love elections!
Btw, there's an official in the Palace of Westminster I know (ish) who is widely respected who thinks we'll be having general elections like this every 18-24 months for the next decade.
Which I thought sounded like fun.
Anyway, that's enough bedwetting for one evening. Supper beckons.
The Chartists get 100% in the end...
Not quite, they wanted annual parliaments.
Personally I would have 20% of seats contested every May over a 5 year cycle.
NOOOOOOO !
Elections by thirds paralyse District Councils from December to June. always marching and never fighting - continuous elections like the US Congress
Comments
But you have to be biased in your post. A little bit of information is dangerous
Ivan Rogers has been speaking again.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1199096356083769346?s=19
The deal he got was not the original one. Unless in the original one NI could de jure leave the Customs Union, de facto take advantage of UK trade deals, had no backstop and had a unilateral exit that could be democratically triggered. Was all that true with the original deal?
Its bizarre that people like you seem to think May taking the NI backstop and extending it to the whole of the UK was progress. Going back to the NI backstop and then ensuring NI consent and an NI exit mechanism was real progress.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/09/jews-brexit-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn
Presumably to avoid last minute cliff edges like we've been experiencing.
2017 was the year when a large number of Remainers voted Labour because they didn't realise Jeremy Corbyn is a life-long Eurosceptic, who even today says he would remain neutral on a second referendum.
As for democratic consent, I'm all in favour of the EU providing a meaningless concession to placate the nutjobs. In fact, before Boris caved in to Varadkar at the Liverpool meeting, I suggested exactly what the negotiators came up with: a theoretical get-out clause which gave Boris a pretext to claim there was an exit clause, but one which could never actually be triggered in practice.
https://fullfact.org/europe/no-deal-brexit-2020-end-transition/
BoZo has said he will not extend, for what his promises are worth.
Trying to smear him just confirms what many of us feel about left leaners and their unsavoury views
It saddens me greatly and to that end I am going to have a cuppa and go aloft
I have no idea how this pans out and I fear it is not going to improve quickly
Maybe tomorrow we could all have a bit more respect to each other but who knows
Good night folks
Get Brexit Done is a slogan of resignation, of defeat, not of enthusiasm.
The ICM 19 point lead was over a month before the election.
Do you think this Labour leadership and manifesto are Marxist? Marxists believe in a class war to achieve a more equal society, suspicious of who appoints judiciary and military leaders, and don’t believe anyone should have a cut of profit even if they invested in the venture, can you clearly point to all that in labour leaderships dialogue and in their liberal democratic Keynesian manifesto?
In reality labour has always been liberal Democratic Party as defined by its economic centre of gravity. If public ownership was left wing and Marxist rather than the result of nationalism then only extreme left wing governments would be the ones doing it?
The only difference between the original deal - that was vetoed by the DUP - and Boris's deal is the element of consent.
The original deal that Mrs May proposed had Northern Ireland half in, half out - i.e it was in the EU Customs Union, but was also part of the UK and benefited from deals that the UK might (in theory) sign. The DUP hated it, because it put up an administrative border in the North Sea, and so Mrs May proposed keeping the whole of the UK in the Customs Union.
Now, I agree that the this deal is better than Mrs May's because it includes consent.
But I also believe that consent has always been the UK's to give. Simply, we are bound by the treaties establishing the United Nations to allow the people of Northern Ireland the right to self determination. Failing to allow them the choice of whether to stay in a customs union with the EU would of meant us being in breach of our treaty obligations. All the EU has done is make crystal clear what was always the case.
Even if that weren't a problem, industry and the civil service need something like six months to set up practical arrangements once they know what the future relationship is going to be. You can't leave it until December to agree the future relationship and expect it all to be implemented in a couple of weeks over Christmas.
It can be triggered, if a majority of NI voters vote for parties wanting to trigger it. If a majority of NI voters don't want to vote to trigger it then that is democracy in action.
And if its so easy, why didn't May go for this solution? Reality is this was a better, more democratic solution and Boris went for it and May did not. Just because May failed to go for this but could have doesn't change that.
Hence - reporting on from my wife again, which I know is getting a bit tiresome as a proviso - surveys of jewish opinion tend to be skewed to the right, and jewish community leaders, rather than public intellectuals, tend to be skewed to the religious right.
And there is nothing Keynesian about Labour. Keynesian economics proposes reducing debt in times of growth not increasing it - where in Labour's policies is the proposal to reduce debt?
I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening.
The whole of Brexit has become a religious affair, and can only be resolved by the extinction of one or other side.
Indeed Boris's prior proposal of the GATT option as an alternative to the Withdrawal Agreement comes into play once we are in the Withdrawal Agreement is in place and we have an outline of an FTA in place. Remember that only takes the EU to agree to it and while the EU wouldn't agree to it before because they wanted locking down a solution for Ireland, citizen's rights and money . . . now they have that and they want a trade deal, they're no longer looking for a withdrawal agreement.
If in six months the UK and EU have agreed the outline of a deal and agree to implement that GATT provision then six months later we can go into that.
The thing is, it was such an obvious compromise in 2016 and moderate leavers and remainers should have Come together and made it happen. I blame Theresa May for killing it with her obsession over freedom of movement.
Edit - what the fuck has happened to paragraph spacing? Together with the quotes it’s making this unreadable.
Is it helping Tory’s have the big solid poll lead that ain’t closing, or without those scandalous specifics and more detail, is it actually barely playing?
There is a Palestinian v Israel bias, and chief Rabbi and Labour seem to be on opposite sides of that bias. And it is sad, for those of us who think having such a bias is a blocker on actually hearing about what will sort the conflict out. Can Labour with that bias actually be in position to mediate and make the worst of the situation over there better if they get in? Not in my opinion.
Muslims or Jews?
The results might be diverting.
The EU did not always accept the case that NI had self-determination on this. Quite the opposite, the mantra repeated constantly was that a backstop with a unilateral exit was no backstop. Getting this agreed was major progress - now if NI votes to trigger the end of the agreement we won't be burning our bridges with the EU anymore, they've already accepted that.
Yes the DUP hated having NI half-in, half-out. So frigging what!? The whole basis of the Good Friday Agreement was that NI was half-in, half-out all along and the DUP hated that too. I hate to make appeals to authority but even David Trimble opposed May's deal but has backed Boris's. That's because the changes do matter.
There is something insufficient in the over-simplified public depiction of this issue.
I also agree on EEA/EFTA. The obvious compromise position. And the Brits used to be good at that. What has become of us?
Shockingly, nearly half (47 percent) said they would “seriously consider” emigrating if Corbyn won. When it comes to perceptions about party leaders, 87 percent deemed the Labour leader to be antisemitic, 32 percent believe Nigel Farage to be antisemitic, with five percent saying the same of both Boris Johnson and Jo Swinson.
From a Survation poll.
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-2019-survation-jn/
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1199087702920044544?s=20
The effect of the Waspi announcement will be very hard to quantify unless pollsters ask specific questions about it . You have the 3.8 million women effected , their partners/husbands .
On the face of it the policy looks very cynical , although the pledge to help was in the manifesto . There was no mention of any costing.
It wasn’t till Johnson ruled out any help that Labour decided to go with this policy .
I think Labour might get away with this because it’s not the same as suddenly declaring a tax cut pledge or other big offer . The moral duty to help and right an injustice makes it difficult for the Tories to attack , because by extension they are then attacking those women .
Whether one believes there has been injustice doesn’t really matter to observers it’s what the women feel that’s important .
Tomorrow Labour are launching their 7 point pledge for over 65s . From what I’ve seen of this it looks good .
The Tories huge lead in the over 65 vote , and big lead in the 50 to 64 is really their firewall . If that holds then they should get a decent majority .
However if the Waspi policy proves popular and they can eat into that big lead the Tories have with over 65s then the polls might tighten more widely .
As a Labour supporter I very much hope that will happen but until we see more than just the ICM poll then there’s a danger of reading too much into that .
I think it's worth adding that he represents the majority of those affiliated to an Orthodox institution. It is, necessarily, quite hard to find a way of representing those who are not affiliated.
It's also clearly the case that the affiliated have far more to fear than the unaffiliated from a Corbyn government - eg those concerned about greater tolerance for public displays of anti-Semitism targeted at people who are identifiable as Jewish. I suspect this goes some way to explaining the Jon Lansman/Ed Miliband vs Maureen Lipman debate below.
Con majority 34
https://ukelect.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/swing-seats.xls
It’s like a tooth extraction . It’s no longer sunny uplands but something to be endured .
I think Bozos beginning to look like a one trick pony .
Unfortunately our political system these days allows very little time for detailed questioning.
It’s incredible to think that ED Miliband’s financial plans were considered irresponsible and unaffordable in 2015. Labour’s declared plans probably dwarf those 100 fold.
It's one of the potential solutions I've been suggesting for a while (with a whatever-it-takes commitment for Northern Ireland). I think that a clear 10-year commitment to EFTA would be better: let a whole political cycle pass without Brexit being an issue in play.
We could convene Citizens Assemblies in the interim to discuss what the true meaning of the referendum was, and what the best course of action at the end of the 10 years would be (rejoin / diverge / remain in Norway status).
The hardest part to solve is the culture war that manifests itself through the Leave/Remain divide: we already have entrenched positions. Perhaps 10 years of relative calm (yes, I know there's a global recession coming), and demographics, might take the sting out of it.
Sadly the UK is way too politically unsophisticated for any of this to happen. We must have our elective dictatorships, and our adversarial politics, and our culture war.
Etc etc.....
- Labour are supposed to be against racism
- This racism in Labour runs through the heart of the left of the Labour Party. FFS their own MPs who have remained in the party are targeted. Many Jewish MPs have left the party. One called on voters to vote Tory such is the shame.
- The people involved are the leadership, or are supported by the leadership. The leadership has been shown to try and influence disciplinary proceedings in the area.
- the EHRC are investigating individual and institutional Antisemitism in the Labour Party
- The long established Jewish labour movement are refusing to support the party for the first time in this election
That is quite a charge sheet. For the labour supporters on here who would normally jump to defend the party just think how you would feel if above instead of Labour it said conservative. Would you be reaching for the dictionary to redefine what has been said? Would you be questioning the accusers motives? Would you be giving the benefit of the doubt?
And before the infantile finger pointing at other parties starts again (seriously it’s like listening to my primary school aged children) of course there is isolated racism in other parties. Boris uses clumsy characterisation in all areas so obviously he has strayed into casual racism. There are Tory anti Muslim activists and councillors around the country. The party I support had David Ward pandering to anti Semitism in Bradford to get elected before being rightly kicked out. These are isolated incidents.
Look at the make up of those serving in Government - two of the great offices of state are filled by British Asians. Is that the way of a racist party? Where are the Jews willing to serve under Corbyn?
Shame on the Labour Party most of all because when we have a clown prime minister the LOTO we are offered not only doesn’t have a view on Brexit, but doesn’t have the backbone to stand up to the Anti semites close to him, seems to lack the intelligence to distinguish between legitimate criticism of the state of Israel and Antisemitism (British Jews are lesser because they can’t understand British irony), and cannot lead the party to deal with it administratively within the party structures.
Con majority 34
Corrected file: https://ukelect.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/swing-seats-5.xls
To read some of the posts tonight, some by posters who don’t even live here, is to read a repeat of that civil servant’s mindset. Any concerns by Jews are apparently unreal, hysterical, not put in context or no worse than what others suffer. Or worse they lead to some rethinking their views about Jews and their “agenda”; complaints by Jews are the reason why some people are anti-Jewish - if only they would be quiet no-one would hate them.
The idea that the fears might be real, that some understanding of why they exist, some empathy with people who have good reason for feeling concerned when a long-standing prejudice is revived might be worthwhile seems wholly foreign to these posters.
It is a dismal sight, to say the least. Some people really do need take a good long hard look at themselves.
Are they making it up? Or is it possible that there is some very real basis for their concerns?
(And to be clear I am well aware that anti-semitism comes from the right too and is equally to be condemned when it does do.)
I suspect that the LDs will get a load of good second places, which will come in handly in the inevitable 2021 General Election.
So, I repeat my question. What evidence is there? Do you know, I am beginning to wonder whether there is any actual evidence for his claims. I am beginning to think that the mere assertion of moral virtue is all the evidence needed. If Corbyn says he has fought racism all his life it is spectacularly impolite to ask him for proof of the actions he has taken which demonstrate this. Facts are simply too vulgar for such people.
Elections by thirds paralyse District Councils from December to June. always marching and never fighting - continuous elections like the US Congress