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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB GE2019 Analysis: Corbyn’s Satisfaction Ratings at elections

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited December 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB GE2019 Analysis: Corbyn’s Satisfaction Ratings at elections

I’ve written before about Jeremy Corbyn’s personal ratings difficulties, and they did not improve in the following months.

Read the full story here


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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    First!
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    Second! Like Corbyn!
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Second! Like Corbyn!

    I'm guessing the wild weather woke you up too?
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    FPT:
    Henrietta said:

    Byronic said:

    As an actual Remain result recedes into the distance, Remainers will be thinking: who will best defend my interests.

    Given that - as we are so often told! - Remainers tend to be richer and better educated, most of them will be thinking: "Shit, Boris Johnson is the better bet, he won't turn the UK into Venezuela."

    We may be witnessing the birth of the Shy Remainer Borisite

    Hardly anyone with a "Remainer" identity will vote Tory.
    Voting intention among EU Ref Remain voters (latest Survation):

    Con: 16
    Lab: 46
    LibD: 22
    BXP: -
    Green: 4
    SNP: 5
    PC: 2

    So, more Remain voters plan to vote Conservative than plan to vote Green, SNP and PC combined.

    As for Venezuela, why did its economic decline predate sanctions?
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2019
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited December 2019
    Foul weather ahead this week. Wednesday blowing a hoolie with some hill snow in Wales and the north.

    After a bright morning in the east, Election Day will be foul with a band of persistent heavy, driving, rain followed by more hill snow in Wales and the north in the late afternoon & evening and sleet falling to lower levels even in the south. The gales will persist so where snow does fall late in the day, it will be whiteout conditions. Generally though, the afternoon & evening are going to see miserable conditions.

    'Flat Cap Fred' may be put off voting in the evening.

    But at least the students won't be going home early as was my fear last week when the northerlies were showing up on the model runs.

    No idea who or how this weather will help. But I refuse to believe it's going to prompt a high turnout.

    65% or below looks a very good bet to me.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339
    Holy Moly.. just seen the figures for Survation 14% lead.. that's major landslide territory. I have been saying that Corbyn is not just disliked , he is actively loathed out there.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339
    edited December 2019
    pS, I want this result, I want Corbyn to be destroyed politically. The sensible left of centre need to regain control of the Labour Party,.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339

    Foul weather ahead this week. Wednesday blowing a hoolie with some hill snow in Wales and the north.

    After a bright morning in the east, Election Day will be foul with a band of persistent heavy, driving, rain followed by more hill snow in Wales and the north in the late afternoon & evening and sleet falling to lower levels even in the south. The gales will persist so where snow does fall late in the day, it will be whiteout conditions. Generally though, the afternoon & evening are going to see miserable conditions.

    'Flat Cap Fred' may be put off voting in the evening.

    But at least the students won't be going home early as was my fear last week when the northerlies were showing up on the model runs.

    No idea who or how this weather will help. But I refuse to believe it's going to prompt a high turnout.

    65% or below looks a very good bet to me.

    So what happened to the hung Parliament. Do you think all the polls are wrong?
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited December 2019
    Squareroot your two posts reveal the problem. What you want (destruction of Corbyn) is what you see (landslide).

    Yes, one poll shows a 14% lead. It may be the correct outcome. Equally, it may not.

    And, for the record, Johnson is loathed too. I would like to see him beaten (destroyed is far too emotive and violent a word to use) and for the Conservative party to be returned to the sensible centre right ground. It will happen, eventually.

    This election remains on a knife-edge, like it or not.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    FPT:

    Tom Newton Dunn

    Tory campaign chiefs to finally let Boris Johnson loose on high street walkabouts in a last 3 day bid to win over ‘red wall’ Labour heartlands #GE2019
    https://t.co/UzmMWLt2I7

    Tory leader finally brave enough to walk down the street shocker.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339

    Squareroot your two posts reveal the problem. What you want (destruction of Corbyn) is what you see (landslide).

    Yes, one poll shows a 14% lead. It may be the correct outcome. Equally, it may not.

    And, for the record, Johnson is loathed too. I would like to see him beaten (destroyed is far too emotive and violent a word to use) and for the Conservative party to be returned to the sensible centre right ground. It will happen, eventually.

    This election remains on a knife-edge, like it or not.

    No it isn't, destroyed politically means exactly what it says on the tin. Corbyn's type of lunatic policies have no place in Britain. A political destruction needs to happen so that right thinking Labour folk can emerge from the ruins and reestablish Labour as a centre left party. The country needs a good opposition, it hasn't had one since Corbyn took over.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339
    edited December 2019

    Squareroot your two posts reveal the problem. What you want (destruction of Corbyn) is what you see (landslide).

    Yes, one poll shows a 14% lead. It may be the correct outcome. Equally, it may not.

    And, for the record, Johnson is loathed too. I would like to see him beaten (destroyed is far too emotive and violent a word to use) and for the Conservative party to be returned to the sensible centre right ground. It will happen, eventually.

    This election remains on a knife-edge, like it or not.

    No it isn't, destroyed politically means exactly what it says on the tin. Corbyn's type of lunatic policies have no place in Britain. A political destruction needs to happen so that right thinking Labour folk can emerge from the ruins and reestablish Labour as a centre left party. The country needs a good opposition, it hasn't had one since Corbyn took over.
    Either that or the other possibility , that Labour goes further left (if that's possible), and the Lib Dems come thro the middle.
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    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    Tom Newton Dunn

    Tory campaign chiefs to finally let Boris Johnson loose on high street walkabouts in a last 3 day bid to win over ‘red wall’ Labour heartlands #GE2019
    https://t.co/UzmMWLt2I7

    Tory leader finally brave enough to walk down the street shocker.
    Police have beefed up his security to deal with Labour's momentum Brown shirt thugs more like.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,951
    I think (and have thought throughout the campaign) that the Conservatives would get a majority of 100+. I still think that likely, and I think it is far from impossible that they beat Mrs Thatcher's 1983 majority of 144 seats.

    But I also think much of this achievement will be because Jeremy Corbyn is Johnson's opponent.

    The question for Labour will be, after a schallacking at the polls, what next? They'll still have 150 or more MPs, and there must be some talent in there.

    The question the LibDems will have is, given how piss poor Corbyn is and how personally unpopular Johnson is, why didn't they do better? Sure, they'll increase their number of seats and their vote share (and one shouldn't forget how low they were laid in 2015). But they should have done better, and there's little doubt that Mrs Swinson is going to need to improve, if the LDs are to go much further.

    I suspect that the 2019-2024 parliament will not be without its challenges for Boris Johnson. Once Brexit is (symbolically) done in seven weeks or so, then the UK has to make some awkward choices: how to manage immigration in a post transition period; how much to diverge from the EU; is the price of a US FTA worth paying; how not to disappoint voters who were promised the fruits of the magic money tree.

    Johnson is lucky with his opponents this time. That may not happen again.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    400 seats isn't out of the question for the Tories if the polls are slightly overestimating Labour.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,951
    Andy_JS said:

    400 seats isn't out of the question for the Tories if the polls are slightly overestimating Labour.

    I don't even think they need to overstate Labour much, they just need Labour's vote to be inefficiently distributed: big majorities piling up in cities, while dropping in Brexit-y seats in the North of England.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887
    alex_ said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?

    On the other side, private companies will do absoutely anything they want, provided it's not illegal and makes a profit.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,951
    As an aside, I just watched 63 Up. (That series is extraordinary.)

    Neil Hughes - as in formerly homeless and struggling with mental illness Neil Hughes - is the LibDem candidate in Workington.

    For the record, I think it is unlikely he will win this time around. But if anyone wants to bet on him, I'm prepared to give a good price.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I just watched 63 Up. (That series is extraordinary.)

    Neil Hughes - as in formerly homeless and struggling with mental illness Neil Hughes - is the LibDem candidate in Workington.

    For the record, I think it is unlikely he will win this time around. But if anyone wants to bet on him, I'm prepared to give a good price.

    I remember seeing him on some of the other Up programmes. He was a councillor in Hackney at one time IIRC. Maybe there'll be a vacancy for the LD candidacy in Westmorland before long.
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    HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    alex_ said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?

    Bloody hell. Labour keep pointing to European countries owning utilities etc but how many are run like that? They are usually arms length companies, not committee run at local level.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Interesting analysis. Does seem to support the theory that during election time the broadcast rules mean that Corbyn gets a fairer hearing and is able to put his points across better.
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    edited December 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    I think (and have thought throughout the campaign) that the Conservatives would get a majority of 100+. I still think that likely, and I think it is far from impossible that they beat Mrs Thatcher's 1983 majority of 144 seats.

    But I also think much of this achievement will be because Jeremy Corbyn is Johnson's opponent.

    The question for Labour will be, after a schallacking at the polls, what next? They'll still have 150 or more MPs, and there must be some talent in there.

    The question the LibDems will have is, given how piss poor Corbyn is and how personally unpopular Johnson is, why didn't they do better? Sure, they'll increase their number of seats and their vote share (and one shouldn't forget how low they were laid in 2015). But they should have done better, and there's little doubt that Mrs Swinson is going to need to improve, if the LDs are to go much further.

    I suspect that the 2019-2024 parliament will not be without its challenges for Boris Johnson. Once Brexit is (symbolically) done in seven weeks or so, then the UK has to make some awkward choices: how to manage immigration in a post transition period; how much to diverge from the EU; is the price of a US FTA worth paying; how not to disappoint voters who were promised the fruits of the magic money tree.

    Johnson is lucky with his opponents this time. That may not happen again.

    The Johnson pitch reminds me a bit of Blair in 1997. Wrap yourself in the Union Jack, talk tough on crime, promise no tax rises combined with realistic fiscal sobriety and targeted spending increases, radiate optimism and a better future...

    I too am expecting a shellicking for Labour this week. The interesting bit will be what happens next. Blair ran in many ways one of the most competent of all post-war administrations in 97-01 but it all went wrong soon thereafter. If Boris wants to be remembered for anything other than Brexit, he's going to need to stay more focused than he's yet proven he's capable of (which I say even as a fairly firm supporter). And then there's Events.

    In Boris's favour, if he does win a landslide, never before will a new prime minister have taken the reins with such low public expectations. It may be the case that he's able to outperform these fairly comfortably and retain a +40% voting coalition with ease.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    Certainly wild out there this morning....
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    I wonder whether Corbyn would ever have been elected leader without social media and the echo chambers that go with it.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    rcs1000 said:

    The question the LibDems will have is, given how piss poor Corbyn is and how personally unpopular Johnson is, why didn't they do better? Sure, they'll increase their number of seats and their vote share (and one shouldn't forget how low they were laid in 2015). But they should have done better, and there's little doubt that Mrs Swinson is going to need to improve, if the LDs are to go much further.

    In "Prime Minister" Jo Swinson, the LibDems seem to have found the only person more piss poor than Corbyn and more personally unpopular than Johnson. Allied to Revoke, the singular most unpopular policy of the election.

    Some of us did say it was going to be this way. Mirror Labour's Brexit policy without any of Labour's bat-shit crazy spending plans and aim to get out the other side of Brexit without being the party of Rejoin - then they could have had something to rebuild for. But after this election they will need to go away and work out who they are for, every bit as much as Labour.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    edited December 2019

    Squareroot your two posts reveal the problem. What you want (destruction of Corbyn) is what you see (landslide).

    Yes, one poll shows a 14% lead. It may be the correct outcome. Equally, it may not.

    And, for the record, Johnson is loathed too. I would like to see him beaten (destroyed is far too emotive and violent a word to use) and for the Conservative party to be returned to the sensible centre right ground. It will happen, eventually.

    This election remains on a knife-edge, like it or not.

    No it isn't, destroyed politically means exactly what it says on the tin. Corbyn's type of lunatic policies have no place in Britain. A political destruction needs to happen so that right thinking Labour folk can emerge from the ruins and reestablish Labour as a centre left party. The country needs a good opposition, it hasn't had one since Corbyn took over.
    Even if Corbyn stands down after a hefty defeat, I don't think Labour are going to go back to promising to match Tory welfare cuts to look responsible. Ideas like nationalizing trains and utilities are here to stay I think.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,951
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think (and have thought throughout the campaign) that the Conservatives would get a majority of 100+. I still think that likely, and I think it is far from impossible that they beat Mrs Thatcher's 1983 majority of 144 seats.

    But I also think much of this achievement will be because Jeremy Corbyn is Johnson's opponent.

    The question for Labour will be, after a schallacking at the polls, what next? They'll still have 150 or more MPs, and there must be some talent in there.

    The question the LibDems will have is, given how piss poor Corbyn is and how personally unpopular Johnson is, why didn't they do better? Sure, they'll increase their number of seats and their vote share (and one shouldn't forget how low they were laid in 2015). But they should have done better, and there's little doubt that Mrs Swinson is going to need to improve, if the LDs are to go much further.

    I suspect that the 2019-2024 parliament will not be without its challenges for Boris Johnson. Once Brexit is (symbolically) done in seven weeks or so, then the UK has to make some awkward choices: how to manage immigration in a post transition period; how much to diverge from the EU; is the price of a US FTA worth paying; how not to disappoint voters who were promised the fruits of the magic money tree.

    Johnson is lucky with his opponents this time. That may not happen again.

    The Johnson pitch reminds me a bit of Blair in 1997. Wrap yourself in the Union Jack, talk tough on crime, promise no tax rises combined with realistic fiscal sobriety and targeted spending increases, radiate optimism and a better future...

    I too am expecting a shellicking for Labour this week. The interesting bit will be what happens next. Blair ran in many ways one of the most competent of all post-war administrations in 97-01 but it all went wrong soon thereafter. If Boris wants to be remembered for anything other than Brexit, he's going to need to stay more focused than he's yet proven he's capable of (which I say even as a fairly firm supporter). And then there's Events.

    In Boris's favour, if he does win a landslide, never before will a new prime minister have taken the reins with such low public expectations. It may be the case that he's able to outperform these fairly comfortably and retain a +40% voting coalition with ease.
    Blair inherited a golden legacy, though. The UK was running a Government surplus, and had only a narrow trade deficit.

    During the Blair and Brown years the UK's foreign savings went negative.

    Johnson has a narrower window of opportunity.

    But he is bright and tough and determined. I wish him the best of luck, but I fear the next five years will be a struggle.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    Will Johnson fight another election after this one? Probably not IMO.
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think (and have thought throughout the campaign) that the Conservatives would get a majority of 100+. I still think that likely, and I think it is far from impossible that they beat Mrs Thatcher's 1983 majority of 144 seats.

    .

    The Johnson pitch reminds me a bit of Blair in 1997. Wrap yourself in the Union Jack, talk tough on crime, promise no tax rises combined with realistic fiscal sobriety and targeted spending increases, radiate optimism and a better future...

    I too am expecting a shellicking for Labour this week. The interesting bit will be what happens next. Blair ran in many ways one of the most competent of all post-war administrations in 97-01 but it all went wrong soon thereafter. If Boris wants to be remembered for anything other than Brexit, he's going to need to stay more focused than he's yet proven he's capable of (which I say even as a fairly firm supporter). And then there's Events.

    In Boris's favour, if he does win a landslide, never before will a new prime minister have taken the reins with such low public expectations. It may be the case that he's able to outperform these fairly comfortably and retain a +40% voting coalition with ease.
    Blair inherited a golden legacy, though. The UK was running a Government surplus, and had only a narrow trade deficit.

    During the Blair and Brown years the UK's foreign savings went negative.

    Johnson has a narrower window of opportunity.

    But he is bright and tough and determined. I wish him the best of luck, but I fear the next five years will be a struggle.
    All true. How transitory it will prove to be but BJ enters at at time of negative real gilt yields and a massive backlog of government capital projects (and housing shortage). He'll need to be bold but the further he can advance the planning of every new road/rail/hospital/bridge in the first 2-years the better, as the need for a counter recessionary fiscal splurge will be inevitable before the term is out.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited December 2019
    alex_ said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?

    It means the sort of people who are willing to sit in dusty halls every evening discussing obscure divisions in revolutionary Marxism will be in charge.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,475
    Thanks for the podcast yesterday. Very good.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,475
    edited December 2019

    shellicking

    Of all the typos in the world, this is now one of my favourite.

    Revenge by labrador.
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    MattW said:

    shellicking

    Of all the typos in the world, this is now one of my favourite.

    Revenge by labrador.

    I'm not sure I know enough about labradors to get this but happy to have amused you on a Monday!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    HaroldO said:

    alex_ said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?

    Bloody hell. Labour keep pointing to European countries owning utilities etc but how many are run like that? They are usually arms length companies, not committee run at local level.
    Why did the IFS describe the Tory spending plans as "Not credible". It was preposterous to use the same language as for Labour looking at the bottom chart ?!?
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Andy_JS said:

    Will Johnson fight another election after this one? Probably not IMO.

    Anything less than a majority of 25 and I reckon he is facing a Tory leadership vote next year...the grandees have still not forgiven him for the stabbing of TM
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,475
    edited December 2019
    moonshine said:

    MattW said:

    shellicking
    Of all the typos in the world, this is now one of my favourite.

    Revenge by labrador.
    I'm not sure I know enough about labradors to get this but happy to have amused you on a Monday!

    Cheers.

    I was shellicked a couple of months after recovering our small shop to sell from a long term tenant (hairdresser) when they moved. Turned out that one of their promotional measures was to give dog biscuits to regular dog walkers' dogs so they were gossiped about locally.

    Dog appears at door, and on opening door Matt W gets nearly licked to death in expectation of the regular dog biscuit.

    A pack of Boneos have been supplied to the next door shop, and a sign with an arrow affixed to the door.

    The texture of life :-).
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    Andy_JS said:

    Will Johnson fight another election after this one? Probably not IMO.

    Anything less than a majority of 25 and I reckon he is facing a Tory leadership vote next year...the grandees have still not forgiven him for the stabbing of TM
    Nah. Johnson always had more of a base in the party than May. More opponents too, but if he wins a majority he’s safe til at least 2022 IMHO.
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    eristdoof said:

    alex_ said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?

    On the other side, private companies will do absoutely anything they want, provided it's not illegal and makes a profit.
    ...and often park themselves off-shore to avoid taxes wherever possible, thus denying the very state they profit from much needed revenue
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    Andy_JS said:

    Will Johnson fight another election after this one? Probably not IMO.

    I don’t think he will unless he looks like he will win it. Assuming he wins a majority on Thursday If he stands down before the vote he’ll be able to say he won two London mayorals and a GE and wasn’t defeated.
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    Tories using Facebook to wipe out Lib Dems
    (a round-up of all parties' digital campaigns)
    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/conservatives-lib-dems-facebook-general-election
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    HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    Pulpstar said:

    HaroldO said:

    alex_ said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?

    Bloody hell. Labour keep pointing to European countries owning utilities etc but how many are run like that? They are usually arms length companies, not committee run at local level.
    Why did the IFS describe the Tory spending plans as "Not credible". It was preposterous to use the same language as for Labour looking at the bottom chart ?!?
    Evil centre rightest though I am I can understand nationalisation even though I dont agree with it. But this is more like quasi collectivisation and really puts us on the road to stagnation. Local councils barely understand taking the bins out let alone huge infrastructure investment. Plus how would large schemes work if it's all locally devolved?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting analysis. Does seem to support the theory that during election time the broadcast rules mean that Corbyn gets a fairer hearing and is able to put his points across better.

    That may be a part of it but surely a far bigger part is that Corbyn is truly pathetic in the House of Commons and looks much better when he doesn't need to go near the place. He is relatively unusual in modern (possibly because he isn't) politicians in that he seems to actively like campaigning and meeting people. He comes across as a lot more normal when he does.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    Jo Swinson on Today: we won't put Corbyn into Downing Street.
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    edited December 2019

    Tories using Facebook to wipe out Lib Dems
    (a round-up of all parties' digital campaigns)
    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/conservatives-lib-dems-facebook-general-election

    Targeting: The Conservatives are also actively targeting 13 of the 22 seats the Lib Dems are trying to take, but not advertising in the remaining nine: Eddisbury, Harrogate & Knaresborough, North East Somerset, Richmond Park, St Ives, Totnes & South Devon, Wantage, Wokingham and York Outer.

    So Zac has been hung out to dry. Why no resources for Redwood's seat in Wokingham? Easy hold or already gone?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,854

    Squareroot your two posts reveal the problem. What you want (destruction of Corbyn) is what you see (landslide).

    Yes, one poll shows a 14% lead. It may be the correct outcome. Equally, it may not.

    And, for the record, Johnson is loathed too. I would like to see him beaten (destroyed is far too emotive and violent a word to use) and for the Conservative party to be returned to the sensible centre right ground. It will happen, eventually.

    This election remains on a knife-edge, like it or not.

    No it isn't, destroyed politically means exactly what it says on the tin. Corbyn's type of lunatic policies have no place in Britain. A political destruction needs to happen so that right thinking Labour folk can emerge from the ruins and reestablish Labour as a centre left party. The country needs a good opposition, it hasn't had one since Corbyn took over.
    Either that or the other possibility , that Labour goes further left (if that's possible), and the Lib Dems come thro the middle.
    Lib Dems are crap and will remain so for the forseeable.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    malcolmg said:

    Squareroot your two posts reveal the problem. What you want (destruction of Corbyn) is what you see (landslide).

    Yes, one poll shows a 14% lead. It may be the correct outcome. Equally, it may not.

    And, for the record, Johnson is loathed too. I would like to see him beaten (destroyed is far too emotive and violent a word to use) and for the Conservative party to be returned to the sensible centre right ground. It will happen, eventually.

    This election remains on a knife-edge, like it or not.

    No it isn't, destroyed politically means exactly what it says on the tin. Corbyn's type of lunatic policies have no place in Britain. A political destruction needs to happen so that right thinking Labour folk can emerge from the ruins and reestablish Labour as a centre left party. The country needs a good opposition, it hasn't had one since Corbyn took over.
    Either that or the other possibility , that Labour goes further left (if that's possible), and the Lib Dems come thro the middle.
    Lib Dems are crap and will remain so for the forseeable.
    Coming from you, describing them as merely “crap” could be regarded as praise.
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    KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    moonshine said:

    Tories using Facebook to wipe out Lib Dems
    (a round-up of all parties' digital campaigns)
    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/conservatives-lib-dems-facebook-general-election

    Targeting: The Conservatives are also actively targeting 13 of the 22 seats the Lib Dems are trying to take, but not advertising in the remaining nine: Eddisbury, Harrogate & Knaresborough, North East Somerset, Richmond Park, St Ives, Totnes & South Devon, Wantage, Wokingham and York Outer.

    So Zac has been hung out to dry. Why no resources for Redwood's seat in Wokingham? Easy hold or already gone?
    Those listed are probably deemed already decided holds (Wokingham) or losses (Richmond Park).
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    Boris Johnson will be at the Port of Tyne today apparently. Probably to wang on about “free ports” or something.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Andy_JS said:

    Jo Swinson on Today: we won't put Corbyn into Downing Street.

    The problem is unless Sturgeon rules it out it remains a possibility.
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    Thanks for this analysis. Worth adding perhaps that Johnson's ratings are also pretty negative. Using Mori's data back to 1979 to estimate the relationship between satisfaction and GB vote share difference, the difference in net satisfaction this time around predicts a Tory lead of about 9pp. Using the difference in positive satisfaction alone (a better predictor, notably in 2005 when using net satisfaction predicts a Tory win) gives a vote share differential of 6-7pp.
    If the real result is 14-15pp the error from this latter model would be 3 standard deviations or double the previous biggest error. So either leader satisfaction has broken down as an indicator this time around (Brexit?), or some previously gold standard polling firms will have egg on their face. We'll know by Thursday night.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    Brom said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jo Swinson on Today: we won't put Corbyn into Downing Street.

    The problem is unless Sturgeon rules it out it remains a possibility.
    Hysterical
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    edited December 2019
    moonshine said:

    Tories using Facebook to wipe out Lib Dems
    (a round-up of all parties' digital campaigns)
    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/conservatives-lib-dems-facebook-general-election

    Targeting: The Conservatives are also actively targeting 13 of the 22 seats the Lib Dems are trying to take, but not advertising in the remaining nine: Eddisbury, Harrogate & Knaresborough, North East Somerset, Richmond Park, St Ives, Totnes & South Devon, Wantage, Wokingham and York Outer.

    So Zac has been hung out to dry. Why no resources for Redwood's seat in Wokingham? Easy hold or already gone?
    Easy hold, it looked comfortable-ish in the first constituency poll and since then the Libs and Tories have moved in opposite directions. There’s nothing to be done with Richmond, they have had the taste of voting yellow and Zac is pro Brexit, he did well to sneak it back in 17’. No idea who threw 10k on Zac on Betfair but I guess people have money to burn round there
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    rcs1000 said:

    I think (and have thought throughout the campaign) that the Conservatives would get a majority of 100+. I still think that likely, and I think it is far from impossible that they beat Mrs Thatcher's 1983 majority of 144 seats.

    But I also think much of this achievement will be because Jeremy Corbyn is Johnson's opponent.

    The question for Labour will be, after a schallacking at the polls, what next? They'll still have 150 or more MPs, and there must be some talent in there.

    The question the LibDems will have is, given how piss poor Corbyn is and how personally unpopular Johnson is, why didn't they do better? Sure, they'll increase their number of seats and their vote share (and one shouldn't forget how low they were laid in 2015). But they should have done better, and there's little doubt that Mrs Swinson is going to need to improve, if the LDs are to go much further.

    I suspect that the 2019-2024 parliament will not be without its challenges for Boris Johnson. Once Brexit is (symbolically) done in seven weeks or so, then the UK has to make some awkward choices: how to manage immigration in a post transition period; how much to diverge from the EU; is the price of a US FTA worth paying; how not to disappoint voters who were promised the fruits of the magic money tree.

    Johnson is lucky with his opponents this time. That may not happen again.

    I would be surprised if the Tory majority exceeds 1983, 1987 is realistic, but far from certain. 1983 does provide my greatest worry, the fact is the Tory party has never exceeded 43% of the vote since the month I was born, October 1959.

    If Labour really do that badly then so to a lesser extent will the LDs and SNP as they all all fish from the same pond.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jo Swinson on Today: we won't put Corbyn into Downing Street.

    The problem is unless Sturgeon rules it out it remains a possibility.
    Hysterical
    In 2017 if 10 more seats move from Con to Lab then Lab+SNP = Tory seats. Not hysterical, it could have happened with a few more days campaigning. Cannot afford to come close to that risk again because Corbyn would cling to number 10 like a limpet
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    Andy_JS said:

    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.

    That’s one way to motivate people to vote Tory. Why is a Lib Dem saying it? One of their core policies is electoral reform, preferable PR. That would lead to hung parliaments and the need for coalitions as a matter of course. She should surely be welcoming the chance to show how well they can work.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    edited December 2019

    rcs1000 said:

    I think (and have thought throughout the campaign) that the Conservatives would get a majority of 100+. I still think that likely, and I think it is far from impossible that they beat Mrs Thatcher's 1983 majority of 144 seats.

    But I also think much of this achievement will be because Jeremy Corbyn is Johnson's opponent.

    The question for Labour will be, after a schallacking at the polls, what next? They'll still have 150 or more MPs, and there must be some talent in there.

    The question the LibDems will have is, given how piss poor Corbyn is and how personally unpopular Johnson is, why didn't they do better? Sure, they'll increase their number of seats and their vote share (and one shouldn't forget how low they were laid in 2015). But they should have done better, and there's little doubt that Mrs Swinson is going to need to improve, if the LDs are to go much further.

    I suspect that the 2019-2024 parliament will not be without its challenges for Boris Johnson. Once Brexit is (symbolically) done in seven weeks or so, then the UK has to make some awkward choices: how to manage immigration in a post transition period; how much to diverge from the EU; is the price of a US FTA worth paying; how not to disappoint voters who were promised the fruits of the magic money tree.

    Johnson is lucky with his opponents this time. That may not happen again.

    I would be surprised if the Tory majority exceeds 1983, 1987 is realistic, but far from certain. 1983 does provide my greatest worry, the fact is the Tory party has never exceeded 43% of the vote since the month I was born, October 1959.

    If Labour really do that badly then so to a lesser extent will the LDs and SNP as they all all fish from the same pond.
    Didn't they get 46% in 1970 with Edward Heath?
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    Andy_JS said:

    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.

    That’s one way to motivate people to vote Tory. Why is a Lib Dem saying it? One of their core policies is electoral reform, preferable PR. That would lead to hung parliaments and the need for coalitions as a matter of course. She should surely be welcoming the chance to show how well they can work.
    We already have coalitions. They are just dishonest and deceptive. The labour party is a coalition. The conservative party is a coalition. The snp is a coalition.
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    melcfmelcf Posts: 166
    Weather forecast for much of the UK, on the 12th,is heavy rain.
    This and an impression that the election results are a forgone conclusion would take the voting percentage below 67%??? Worth a punt?
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    eekeek Posts: 24,955
    edited December 2019
    Brom said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jo Swinson on Today: we won't put Corbyn into Downing Street.

    The problem is unless Sturgeon rules it out it remains a possibility.
    Sturgeon isn't going to rule it out as she has the removal of Trident and a second indy ref as reasons to allow Corbyn in.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    edited December 2019
    melcf said:

    Weather forecast for much of the UK, on the 12th,is heavy rain.
    This and an impression that the election results are a forgone conclusion would take the voting percentage below 67%??? Worth a punt?

    I think turnout will hit 70% for the first time at a GE since 1997.

    Temperatures are going to be above average for the time of year. I think very cold weather might have impacted turnout a bit, but not rain.
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    Andy_JS said:

    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.

    That’s one way to motivate people to vote Tory. Why is a Lib Dem saying it? One of their core policies is electoral reform, preferable PR. That would lead to hung parliaments and the need for coalitions as a matter of course. She should surely be welcoming the chance to show how well they can work.
    We already have coalitions. They are just dishonest and deceptive. The labour party is a coalition. The conservative party is a coalition. The snp is a coalition.
    Actually that’s the one real argument for FPTP I think. We know going in what the coalitions are and which ever gets the most vote wins (most of the time). In PR we have more control over who is elected but less (or at least no more than currently) over who actually ends up in government as that is decided post election by the party leaders.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Boris on Sunderland today :)
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,801
    Survation!!!!!!!!!! :open_mouth:
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    moonshine said:

    Tories using Facebook to wipe out Lib Dems
    (a round-up of all parties' digital campaigns)
    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/conservatives-lib-dems-facebook-general-election

    Targeting: The Conservatives are also actively targeting 13 of the 22 seats the Lib Dems are trying to take, but not advertising in the remaining nine: Eddisbury, Harrogate & Knaresborough, North East Somerset, Richmond Park, St Ives, Totnes & South Devon, Wantage, Wokingham and York Outer.

    So Zac has been hung out to dry. Why no resources for Redwood's seat in Wokingham? Easy hold or already gone?
    Wokingham should be an easy hold. He's got a 40% majority, it was only somewhat close when BXP was standing and the libdems were higher in the polls. They've got pretty much no chance of taking it at this point.

    I'm more surprised by St Ives being part of this list, given that the majority is only 0.6% there. I've always expected the tories to win it with an increased majority given that it voted leave, but still expect it to be close, like 5%. Maybe their polling is showing they're performing better than expected against the libdems in leave seats.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    Andy_JS said:

    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.

    That’s one way to motivate people to vote Tory. Why is a Lib Dem saying it? One of their core policies is electoral reform, preferable PR. That would lead to hung parliaments and the need for coalitions as a matter of course. She should surely be welcoming the chance to show how well they can work.
    We already have coalitions. They are just dishonest and deceptive. The labour party is a coalition. The conservative party is a coalition. The snp is a coalition.
    Actually that’s the one real argument for FPTP I think. We know going in what the coalitions are and which ever gets the most vote wins (most of the time). In PR we have more control over who is elected but less (or at least no more than currently) over who actually ends up in government as that is decided post election by the party leaders.
    I disagree. Under PR voters can determine the strength of each ‘fraction’. Under FPTP it is simply a tiny amount of weirdo party members.
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    eek said:

    Brom said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jo Swinson on Today: we won't put Corbyn into Downing Street.

    The problem is unless Sturgeon rules it out it remains a possibility.
    Sturgeon isn't going to rule it out as she has the removal of Trident and a second indy ref as reasons to allow Corbyn in.
    Both of which I think Corbyn is instinctively in favour of. Would he be able to make those choices, or would it be the NEC?
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    Good morning all. The Survation poll caps a good weekend of polls for the Tories with solid leads and perhaps surprisingly the trend towards them.

    It's not over yet though and the Tories need to ensure there is no complacency and they get every vote out on the day. Extraordinary to see Boris going into the Labour heartlands in the last few days of the campaign. It's almost unbelievable.
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    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting analysis. Does seem to support the theory that during election time the broadcast rules mean that Corbyn gets a fairer hearing and is able to put his points across better.

    That may be a part of it but surely a far bigger part is that Corbyn is truly pathetic in the House of Commons and looks much better when he doesn't need to go near the place. He is relatively unusual in modern (possibly because he isn't) politicians in that he seems to actively like campaigning and meeting people. He comes across as a lot more normal when he does.
    The broadcasting rules are grossly unfair to the parties of the right. Each of the so called debates have consisted of the pack of wolves trying to bring down the Tory stag. And as Heseltine observed in 1997, they always must. Brave of Boris to refuse entirely to co-operate. The point is, and perhaps Andrew Neil sees it that in future elections Tories will need precedents for refusing to co-operate at all.

    If there is a large majority then the rules will be able to be put on a statutory footing which makes the shitty stunts we have seen from the hard left at C4 consigned to history. If a party refuses to take part, then it should have the right to the same amount of air time. If the party puts someone up then either they take part or the event does not proceed.
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    Andy_JS said:

    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.

    That’s one way to motivate people to vote Tory. Why is a Lib Dem saying it? One of their core policies is electoral reform, preferable PR. That would lead to hung parliaments and the need for coalitions as a matter of course. She should surely be welcoming the chance to show how well they can work.
    We already have coalitions. They are just dishonest and deceptive. The labour party is a coalition. The conservative party is a coalition. The snp is a coalition.
    Actually that’s the one real argument for FPTP I think. We know going in what the coalitions are and which ever gets the most vote wins (most of the time). In PR we have more control over who is elected but less (or at least no more than currently) over who actually ends up in government as that is decided post election by the party leaders.
    I disagree. Under PR voters can determine the strength of each ‘fraction’. Under FPTP it is simply a tiny amount of weirdo party members.
    I didn’t say it was a good argument, just that it was makeable. I’m agnostic on the whole subject as I expect it would make far less difference than its supporters hope for.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256

    Andy_JS said:

    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.

    That’s one way to motivate people to vote Tory. Why is a Lib Dem saying it? One of their core policies is electoral reform, preferable PR. That would lead to hung parliaments and the need for coalitions as a matter of course. She should surely be welcoming the chance to show how well they can work.
    We already have coalitions. They are just dishonest and deceptive. The labour party is a coalition. The conservative party is a coalition. The snp is a coalition.
    Actually that’s the one real argument for FPTP I think. We know going in what the coalitions are and which ever gets the most vote wins (most of the time). In PR we have more control over who is elected but less (or at least no more than currently) over who actually ends up in government as that is decided post election by the party leaders.
    We don’t, really, though, do we? The system forces us towards the same two parties, and even if the LibDems might have happened to break through and win the most votes, every model suggests they would still be in third place in terms of seats. The system is designed to supress the representation of ideas and parties with geographically dispersed support.
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    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    I thought I saw mentions of a Wales poll coming out. did we get one or is one expected?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100

    I thought I saw mentions of a Wales poll coming out. did we get one or is one expected?

    Think the last one came out 5pm?
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    felix said:

    Boris on Sunderland today :)

    Con Gain Sunderland Central
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    melcfmelcf Posts: 166
    Thanks Andy,
    Why do you think it would cross 70%. Most people I speak to seem less enthusiastic about this election and think Boris is going to win anyway.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    I wonder if after the euphoria of the final weekend polls PB Tories are finally ready to believe and get triumphant, or if they are nervously awaiting the MRP even now.
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    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I just watched 63 Up. (That series is extraordinary.)

    Neil Hughes - as in formerly homeless and struggling with mental illness Neil Hughes - is the LibDem candidate in Workington.

    For the record, I think it is unlikely he will win this time around. But if anyone wants to bet on him, I'm prepared to give a good price.

    I remember seeing him on some of the other Up programmes. He was a councillor in Hackney at one time IIRC. Maybe there'll be a vacancy for the LD candidacy in Westmorland before long.
    It won't be Neil Hughes - much more likely to be Suzie Pye who happens to be Peter Thornton's daughter. ( PT is leader of the LDs on Cumbria and was the 2010 candidate in P & B )
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    melcf said:

    Thanks Andy,
    Why do you think it would cross 70%. Most people I speak to seem less enthusiastic about this election and think Boris is going to win anyway.

    It's been rising at every election since 2001 and I think that might be a trend of more voter engagement with politics. Also Brexit has energised the electorate on both sides. Turnout was 68.8% last time so it wouldn't have to increase much since 2017.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    edited December 2019
    nunu2 said:

    felix said:

    Boris on Sunderland today :)

    Con Gain Sunderland Central
    He is in South Shields too but there will be no Tory victory there.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    IanB2 said:


    We don’t, really, though, do we? The system forces us towards the same two parties, and even if the LibDems might have happened to break through and win the most votes, every model suggests they would still be in third place in terms of seats. The system is designed to supress the representation of ideas and parties with geographically dispersed support.

    Why do we want that?

    We want a system in which geographically concentrated minorities (e.g., Welsh speakers, or NI Catholics) are protected.

    Just as in the US Presidential elections, it is perfectly reasonable to have a system in which the rights of small states or small groups are protected.

    It is a feature, not a bug.

    It is perfectly possible for centrist parties to win power under FPTP (e.g. Canada), The UK Liberals are just incompetent.

    In fact, our Liberal friend Justin has lost his taste for PR -- after all, he would have lost power in the last Canadian election, if he had actually implemented it.
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    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting analysis. Does seem to support the theory that during election time the broadcast rules mean that Corbyn gets a fairer hearing and is able to put his points across better.

    That may be a part of it but surely a far bigger part is that Corbyn is truly pathetic in the House of Commons and looks much better when he doesn't need to go near the place. He is relatively unusual in modern (possibly because he isn't) politicians in that he seems to actively like campaigning and meeting people. He comes across as a lot more normal when he does.
    The broadcasting rules are grossly unfair to the parties of the right. Each of the so called debates have consisted of the pack of wolves trying to bring down the Tory stag. And as Heseltine observed in 1997, they always must. Brave of Boris to refuse entirely to co-operate. The point is, and perhaps Andrew Neil sees it that in future elections Tories will need precedents for refusing to co-operate at all.

    If there is a large majority then the rules will be able to be put on a statutory footing which makes the shitty stunts we have seen from the hard left at C4 consigned to history. If a party refuses to take part, then it should have the right to the same amount of air time. If the party puts someone up then either they take part or the event does not proceed.
    Think what your opponents might do with those rules!
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    Certainly wild out there this morning....

    And on here. Hope the mood is the same on Friday !
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    melcf said:

    Thanks Andy,
    Why do you think it would cross 70%. Most people I speak to seem less enthusiastic about this election and think Boris is going to win anyway.

    I think you are right but despite the corbynista revival last time I never really felt that much enthusiasm yet turnout was good. So I'd expect similar, although Andy's 70% prediction looks too high.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    Tom Newton Dunn

    Tory campaign chiefs to finally let Boris Johnson loose on high street walkabouts in a last 3 day bid to win over ‘red wall’ Labour heartlands #GE2019
    https://t.co/UzmMWLt2I7

    Current polling suggests their cautious approach so far has worked - why change that?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Swinson: another election may be needed in the event of a hung parliament.

    That’s one way to motivate people to vote Tory. Why is a Lib Dem saying it? One of their core policies is electoral reform, preferable PR. That would lead to hung parliaments and the need for coalitions as a matter of course. She should surely be welcoming the chance to show how well they can work.
    We already have coalitions. They are just dishonest and deceptive. The labour party is a coalition. The conservative party is a coalition. The snp is a coalition.
    Actually that’s the one real argument for FPTP I think. We know going in what the coalitions are and which ever gets the most vote wins (most of the time). In PR we have more control over who is elected but less (or at least no more than currently) over who actually ends up in government as that is decided post election by the party leaders.
    We don’t, really, though, do we? The system forces us towards the same two parties, and even if the LibDems might have happened to break through and win the most votes, every model suggests they would still be in third place in terms of seats. The system is designed to supress the representation of ideas and parties with geographically dispersed support.
    Quite.
    Which also, of course, makes an utter nonsense of the claim that the Lib Dem revoke policy is ‘undemocratic’. For them to be in a position to put it into action would require a supermajority of the national vote.
    Swinson’s failure was the inability to articulate this from the outset.
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    If these figures are right and Tories take 76% of the Leave vote, then the breakthrough for them in Greater Manchester will be a sight to behold!
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,547
    kle4 said:

    melcf said:

    Thanks Andy,
    Why do you think it would cross 70%. Most people I speak to seem less enthusiastic about this election and think Boris is going to win anyway.

    I think you are right but despite the corbynista revival last time I never really felt that much enthusiasm yet turnout was good. So I'd expect similar, although Andy's 70% prediction looks too high.
    It was 68.8% last time. Not far off 70%.
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    rkrkrk said:

    Squareroot your two posts reveal the problem. What you want (destruction of Corbyn) is what you see (landslide).

    Yes, one poll shows a 14% lead. It may be the correct outcome. Equally, it may not.

    And, for the record, Johnson is loathed too. I would like to see him beaten (destroyed is far too emotive and violent a word to use) and for the Conservative party to be returned to the sensible centre right ground. It will happen, eventually.

    This election remains on a knife-edge, like it or not.

    No it isn't, destroyed politically means exactly what it says on the tin. Corbyn's type of lunatic policies have no place in Britain. A political destruction needs to happen so that right thinking Labour folk can emerge from the ruins and reestablish Labour as a centre left party. The country needs a good opposition, it hasn't had one since Corbyn took over.
    Even if Corbyn stands down after a hefty defeat, I don't think Labour are going to go back to promising to match Tory welfare cuts to look responsible. Ideas like nationalizing trains and utilities are here to stay I think.
    Here to stay until the 2024 defeat - that is when reality will kick in
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    Without, even now, writing Corbyn off, DavidL makes a good point about how much better he seems when away from the Commons, away from day to day politics.

    Perhaps he is good at constituency work, but he really seems like he is in the wrong job - hes a man designed to lobby mps, not be an mp.
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    nunu2 said:

    felix said:

    Boris on Sunderland today :)

    Con Gain Sunderland Central
    He is in South Shields too but there will be no Tory victory there.
    Prehaps not. But *if* the tories get ~75% of the Leave vote some if these Labour leave seats with humongous majorities will fall.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting analysis. Does seem to support the theory that during election time the broadcast rules mean that Corbyn gets a fairer hearing and is able to put his points across better.

    That may be a part of it but surely a far bigger part is that Corbyn is truly pathetic in the House of Commons and looks much better when he doesn't need to go near the place. He is relatively unusual in modern (possibly because he isn't) politicians in that he seems to actively like campaigning and meeting people. He comes across as a lot more normal when he does.
    The broadcasting rules are grossly unfair to the parties of the right. Each of the so called debates have consisted of the pack of wolves trying to bring down the Tory stag. And as Heseltine observed in 1997, they always must. Brave of Boris to refuse entirely to co-operate. The point is, and perhaps Andrew Neil sees it that in future elections Tories will need precedents for refusing to co-operate at all.

    If there is a large majority then the rules will be able to be put on a statutory footing which makes the shitty stunts we have seen from the hard left at C4 consigned to history. If a party refuses to take part, then it should have the right to the same amount of air time. If the party puts someone up then either they take part or the event does not proceed.
    I thought ch.4's stunt was ruled ok in part because the Tory view did get airtime on the network.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    IanB2 said:


    We don’t, really, though, do we? The system forces us towards the same two parties, and even if the LibDems might have happened to break through and win the most votes, every model suggests they would still be in third place in terms of seats. The system is designed to supress the representation of ideas and parties with geographically dispersed support.

    Why do we want that?

    We want a system in which geographically concentrated minorities (e.g., Welsh speakers, or NI Catholics) are protected.

    Just as in the US Presidential elections, it is perfectly reasonable to have a system in which the rights of small states or small groups are protected.

    It is a feature, not a bug.

    It is perfectly possible for centrist parties to win power under FPTP (e.g. Canada), The UK Liberals are just incompetent.

    In fact, our Liberal friend Justin has lost his taste for PR -- after all, he would have lost power in the last Canadian election, if he had actually implemented it.
    Plaid Cymru and Irish catholics would still return members under PR systems such as STV. Shows that you clearly do not understand proportional representation.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100

    moonshine said:

    Tories using Facebook to wipe out Lib Dems
    (a round-up of all parties' digital campaigns)
    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/conservatives-lib-dems-facebook-general-election

    Targeting: The Conservatives are also actively targeting 13 of the 22 seats the Lib Dems are trying to take, but not advertising in the remaining nine: Eddisbury, Harrogate & Knaresborough, North East Somerset, Richmond Park, St Ives, Totnes & South Devon, Wantage, Wokingham and York Outer.

    So Zac has been hung out to dry. Why no resources for Redwood's seat in Wokingham? Easy hold or already gone?
    Those listed are probably deemed already decided holds (Wokingham) or losses (Richmond Park).
    Agree. Totnes looks solid for the blues now. Helped by the tactical voting sites not sure whether to back Wollaston for the LibDems or Labour, who got twice the vote of the LibDems last time. Met a number of tactical voters unsure which way to go to side with the challenger of the Tories.

    Still a sizeable Labour vote in Totnes itself, and they seem to have hoovered up the Greens, who were expected to have gone for Wollaston when they stood down their candidate. Trouble for the LibDems is that whilst some ahve high regard for her as a constituency MP, for others Wollaston = Tory = Austerity. Brexit is all they have in common - and it is not enough.
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    Andy_JS said:

    Will Johnson fight another election after this one? Probably not IMO.

    If he wins he will have to and he isn't that old. In that scenario his successor will be newly elected on Thursday.
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    Brom said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jo Swinson on Today: we won't put Corbyn into Downing Street.

    The problem is unless Sturgeon rules it out it remains a possibility.
    I remain to be convinced by what JS means by “not putting Corbyn (or Johnson) in Downing Street. Firstly, such pre-election campaigns tend to dissolve like candy floss in a puddle. Secondly, what’s the alternative for a small party? You either (at least) acquiesce in the formation of a government or you go straight back to the polls - and in this case, presumably a no deal Brexit on Jan 31 as a result.

    I guess the reality is that we’re heading for a Boris win (though I don’t buy the larger predictions of his majority). If not, it’ll be a fascinating/troubled time. For starters, where does Boris go for extra votes if he’s short? DUP and bin his deal or LDs and have a referendum? Either of those and he’s toast. I’m not even sure he’d get any Lab leavers through the lobby so immediately after an election.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    melcf said:

    Thanks Andy,
    Why do you think it would cross 70%. Most people I speak to seem less enthusiastic about this election and think Boris is going to win anyway.

    I think you are right but despite the corbynista revival last time I never really felt that much enthusiasm yet turnout was good. So I'd expect similar, although Andy's 70% prediction looks too high.
    It was 68.8% last time. Not far off 70%.
    Indeed, its not a preposterous prediction. I'm just expecting similar slightly below not similar above.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    edited December 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think (and have thought throughout the campaign) that the Conservatives would get a majority of 100+. I still think that likely, and I think it . That may not happen again.

    The Johnson pitch reminds me a bit of Blair in 1997. Wrap yourself in the Union Jack, talk tough on crime, promise no tax rises combined with realistic fiscal sobriety and targeted spending increases, radiate optimism and a better future...

    I too am expecting a shellicking for Labour this week. The interesting bit will be what happens next. Blair ran in many ways one of the most competent of all post-war administrations in 97-01 but it all went wrong soon thereafter. If Boris wants to be remembered for anything other than Brexit, he's going to need to stay more focused than he's yet proven he's capable of (which I say even as a fairly firm supporter). And then there's Events.

    In Boris's favour, if he does win a landslide, never before will a new prime minister have taken the reins with such low public expectations. It may be the case that he's able to outperform these fairly comfortably and retain a +40% voting coalition with ease.
    Blair inherited a golden legacy, though. The UK was running a Government surplus, and had only a narrow trade deficit.

    During the Blair and Brown years the UK's foreign savings went negative.

    Johnson has a narrower window of opportunity.

    But he is bright and tough and determined. I wish him the best of luck, but I fear the next five years will be a struggle.
    He may be bright, and affable, but I don’t see much evidence of being tough and determined. Like Trump he is actually emotionally fragile. He hasn’t demonstrated prime ministerial maturity in dealing with those who challenge him, whether the grandees within his own party or Channel 4.

    He uses bluster and humour to wriggle out of ever being pinned down, and is an unprincipled opportunist of the first order. He is also lazy. And in less than a couple of months’ time pretty much the only principal and objective that he has championed will be ticked off, leaving him without an agenda and a mandate for nothing. Apart from being not Corbyn.

    None of these skills lend themselves to resolving the challenges that lie ahead. Almost the only skill he has that might suit him for high office is picking good people and his willingness to trust them to get on with things. But it’s a huge ask to get British government to work that way, and letting your colleagues get on with things in politics carries risk as well as reward.

    He is already the most unpopular new PM in polling history, and after Survation may be about to become the least popular election winner ever. I fear we are in for years of turmoil.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    I'm now not seeing Corbynista relatives until Friday PM. It should prove a very interesting experience no matter the outcome.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    edited December 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    HaroldO said:

    alex_ said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50704546

    Sounds like Labour think there needs to be a committee meeting prior to anybody having a new phone line being put in. When they talk about “(local) democratic oversight of essential utilities” do they stop to think what most people actually think of their local council?

    Bloody hell. Labour keep pointing to European countries owning utilities etc but how many are run like that? They are usually arms length companies, not committee run at local level.
    Why did the IFS describe the Tory spending plans as "Not credible". It was preposterous to use the same language as for Labour looking at the bottom chart ?!?
    The IFS were criticised by some economists for over reach with their criticism of Lab. They are a micro economic think tank and were making big macro calls on Lab's manifesto.

    Perhaps spooked by that, since then they have been an equal opportunity criticiser.
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