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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the New Year begins Stodge asks “Is Britain Now a One-Party

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited January 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the New Year begins Stodge asks “Is Britain Now a One-Party State?”

After the 1992 General Election, the fourth consecutive Conservative victory, the Times, in its wonderful statistical summary, described the Conservatives as “the natural Party of Government” and Labour as “the natural Party of Opposition”. Despite a poor economic outlook and 13 years of Government, John Major surprised the polls and most pundits by coming home victorious.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    edited January 2020
    What the opposition does in the British system is pick someone they voters don't fear, and preferably like, and wait for the government to bollocks things up. But before they do that the members often like to entertain themselves in a gentleman's manner for a while.

    Unfortunately Labour didn't have anybody the voters liked in the first term, then they went into furious self-indulgence mode and accidentally lost less badly than expected and failed to learn the lessons, so they lost an extra election cycle, but luckily it was a short one.

    If the members work it out they'll probably get back in next time or the time after. If they don't they won't.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    OT interesting bet, Caplan was wildly right and Steyn was totally wrong, but Caplan offered generous terms and only won his bet by the skin of his teeth:

    https://twitter.com/bryan_caplan/status/1212239747395080192
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    Happy New Year everyone. Sorry to hear Malc and Gallowgate but starting the year at the best hopefully things will improve.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    Johnson says broadly what I would expect him to say. He attracts the usual hate that Twitter deals out to anyone of prominence. The remarkable thing is the number of true believers Who know absolutely that Johnson will transform Britain into a wonderful place. Someone even hails the "Dear Leader" without irony. These people literally believe in miracles. No other prime minister has ever been accorded such faith, but Johnson is, on his record, surely the one you should put the least faith in. Weird.

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1212141380425916416?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    Good article to start the year! The power of optimism is very, very important - I know quite left-wing people who like Boris and liked Reagan for their cheery personalities. I personally prefer dour nuance and complexity (I like Gordon Brown and Jeremy Corbyn more than Tony Blair, though I do respect Tony's insights), but most voters like sunny uplands and simplicity, and we need to choose leaders who are able to project that (ideally with a more solid underlying foundation).
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    A very Happy New year to all Pb-ers. Listening to Johnson one would think his was a completely new Government, replacing that of a worn out out Party that had been in Government too long.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    Good article to start the year! The power of optimism is very, very important - I know quite left-wing people who like Boris and liked Reagan for their cheery personalities. I personally prefer dour nuance and complexity (I like Gordon Brown and Jeremy Corbyn more than Tony Blair, though I do respect Tony's insights), but most voters like sunny uplands and simplicity, and we need to choose leaders who are able to project that (ideally with a more solid underlying foundation).

    HNY to all.

    At least the “simplicity” won’t be a problem, given the field?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    Yesterday I posted that I would like to see a better account of the relationship of Britain and the EU in respect of the fishing industry. Later that day I read what appeared to be one in the Guardian; the editorial: 'The Guardian view on Brexit’s fishy tale: we will need friends at sea' and wondered. If the position IS as discussed there it's going to be quite a circle to square to keep all our fishermen happy and meet our international obligations.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited January 2020

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
  • Options
    Happy New Year to one and all. And never, ever give up. Ever. Drive forward, let setbacks make you stronger and be sure to savour the good times, for they are something special. Let’s smash the 2020s!!
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
    Do you think he is? I reckon he had that style way before Corbyn was Labour leader, for both London Mayoral elections for a start.

    Unless he was copying Corbyn while JC was a backbencher?!
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Really? Dear me.




  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
    Do you think he is? I reckon he had that style way before Corbyn was Labour leader, for both London Mayoral elections for a start.

    Unless he was copying Corbyn while JC was a backbencher?!
    Well, I did think that myself actually, after I had posted my comment. But I do think he’s going much more OTT on the personality stuff thing than before.

    It may however just be because he’s getting more expos...airtime than before so it’s more noticeable.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    OT interesting bet, Caplan was wildly right and Steyn was totally wrong, but Caplan offered generous terms and only won his bet by the skin of his teeth:

    https://twitter.com/bryan_caplan/status/1212239747395080192

    Whilst the EU* is clearly not on the verge of collapse, I don't think it's accurate to describe Caplan as "wildly right" given he offered such generous terms on the bet, presumably because he thought it impossible that a country could ever leave the EU.

    * Actually, the collapse of the Euro is a much more realistic (if unlikely) proposition, which would likely lead to the collapse of the EU.
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    Happy new year and good health to all.

    Dogsitting 11 dogs plus 8 puppies overnight so no drinks for me. Still didnt appreciate them waking me up at 5.30 this morning. But if that's the worst thing about 2020 it will be a good year.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
    Do you think he is? I reckon he had that style way before Corbyn was Labour leader, for both London Mayoral elections for a start.

    Unless he was copying Corbyn while JC was a backbencher?!
    Well, I did think that myself actually, after I had posted my comment. But I do think he’s going much more OTT on the personality stuff thing than before.

    It may however just be because he’s getting more expos...airtime than before so it’s more noticeable.
    I think he has been a 'personality' for a lot longer than you think.. I wonder when he started being referred to as 'Boris' in the media.

    Occurs to me that calling him 'Boris' is the equivalent of 'Julia did it' from 1984 for his detractors!
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    If Britain has been held back and Johnson will release its potential to be a wonderful place, people might reasonably wonder what the Conservative Party has been doing for the past ten years. So I don't think the personality cult is a tacky one. It's about building Johnson up to be a supreme leader that isn't bound by party or any other strictures
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141

    I personally prefer dour nuance and complexity

    Me too - I like worried-looking politicians like Lionel Jospin, and people who act like think they know what they're doing scare me, since nobody does. It's worse in Britain because objectively, most of the country's problems - especially in business - can be traced back to overly convincing bullshitters.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982
    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    ❄️
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
    Do you think he is? I reckon he had that style way before Corbyn was Labour leader, for both London Mayoral elections for a start.

    Unless he was copying Corbyn while JC was a backbencher?!
    Well, I did think that myself actually, after I had posted my comment. But I do think he’s going much more OTT on the personality stuff thing than before.

    It may however just be because he’s getting more expos...airtime than before so it’s more noticeable.
    I think he has been a 'personality' for a lot longer than you think.. I wonder when he started being referred to as 'Boris' in the media.

    Occurs to me that calling him 'Boris' is the equivalent of 'Julia did it' from 1984 for his detractors!
    I can remember him being interviewed on the BBC News in the days after the 2001 General Election. I can remember him saying something like "the whips have told me to behave."
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited January 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    ❄️
    Ooh tough guy! You really don't play by 'the rules' do you? #maverick

    Ridden a tricycle at 8mph recently?

  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331

    Good article to start the year! The power of optimism is very, very important - I know quite left-wing people who like Boris and liked Reagan for their cheery personalities. I personally prefer dour nuance and complexity (I like Gordon Brown and Jeremy Corbyn more than Tony Blair, though I do respect Tony's insights), but most voters like sunny uplands and simplicity, and we need to choose leaders who are able to project that (ideally with a more solid underlying foundation).

    Well if that's what you prefer, why did you choose Corbyn, when the end result would certainly have been disaster. Why can/could you not see that?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    I personally prefer dour nuance and complexity

    Me too - I like worried-looking politicians like Lionel Jospin, and people who act like think they know what they're doing scare me, since nobody does. It's worse in Britain because objectively, most of the country's problems - especially in business - can be traced back to overly convincing bullshitters.
    Johnson is Berlusconi, not Trump. Like Berlusconi, Johnson tells people what they want to hear. Italy went to the dogs under Berlusconi. His effect was worse than useless: Italy did better in the brief interludes when he wasn't PM
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    His persona already off puts plenty of people, so I dont think theres much danger of that - after all, even lots who voted for him believe him to be pretty untrustworthy. And if things go badly you can only bluster so much before it becomes ineffective.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    isam said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    ❄️
    Ooh tough guy! You really don't play by 'the rules' do you? #maverick

    Ridden a tricycle at 8mph recently?

    A dangerous, cool rebel indeed
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited January 2020
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
    Do you think he is? I reckon he had that style way before Corbyn was Labour leader, for both London Mayoral elections for a start.

    Unless he was copying Corbyn while JC was a backbencher?!
    Well, I did think that myself actually, after I had posted my comment. But I do think he’s going much more OTT on the personality stuff thing than before.

    It may however just be because he’s getting more expos...airtime than before so it’s more noticeable.
    I think he has been a 'personality' for a lot longer than you think.. I wonder when he started being referred to as 'Boris' in the media.

    Occurs to me that calling him 'Boris' is the equivalent of 'Julia did it' from 1984 for his detractors!
    He first came to popular consciousness with his appearances on Have I Got News For You. His bumbling appearances, such as when he got his name wrong in a mock Mastermind round, made him an instant hit, confirmed by his astoundingly incompetent first performance as host. They refer to their panellists by their first names, so ‘Boris’ is what stuck.

    I’ve never doubted his ‘personality’ label, but he always had some substance behind it. Early in his political career, his genius was putting policies across in a way people found easy to understand without talking down to them, or sending himself up while doing so so that they were enjoying talking to him. But recently, he seems to have more or less ditched the policy and concentrated on the persona.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    There's a real sickness there when you literally wish death on your opponents. Shameful.
  • Options
    Happy New Year to everyone!

    On topic, the PM’s election approach of posing as a new government was made more plausible by the composition and actions of Parliament, particularly since he became Prime Minister. He did not have the automatic ability to put through his own bills un-amended, and he could not prevent Parliament from putting through bills that he objected to.
    I also think that his election victory was far from inevitable as it relied on the deal with the EU for the WA and the agreement of opposing MPs to allow the election in the first place.
    Once the election was called then victory relied on not repeating the mistakes of 2017, but in hindsight the overall effect of the campaign seems to have been minimal (except perhaps for the Lib Dems).
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    and a happy New Year from me too, looking forward to years of spaffing in the face of national pessimism (© Byronic)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    Good article to start the year! The power of optimism is very, very important - I know quite left-wing people who like Boris and liked Reagan for their cheery personalities. I personally prefer dour nuance and complexity (I like Gordon Brown and Jeremy Corbyn more than Tony Blair, though I do respect Tony's insights), but most voters like sunny uplands and simplicity, and we need to choose leaders who are able to project that (ideally with a more solid underlying foundation).

    I think that's right, and that its possible to believe and point out bad things that need fixing without giving the impression that everything is bloody awful.

    One thing I've mentioned before that always struck me was Cameron in a 2010 leader debate making as one of his very first points that not everything labour did was bad, and he would keep the good stuff.

    Now, that was probably just a bland promise designed to assure people he was not a rabid right winger, but I think it says something it was among the first points he made - it meant that however much he might say Labour were awful and needed replacing after 13 years, people could know he was suggesting everything had gotten worse, that the country was a pile of crap. It wasnt cheery like Boris, but it wasn't miserablist.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    Happy New Year to everyone!

    On topic, the PM’s election approach of posing as a new government was made more plausible by the composition and actions of Parliament, particularly since he became Prime Minister. He did not have the automatic ability to put through his own bills un-amended, and he could not prevent Parliament from putting through bills that he objected to.
    I also think that his election victory was far from inevitable as it relied on the deal with the EU for the WA and the agreement of opposing MPs to allow the election in the first place.
    Once the election was called then victory relied on not repeating the mistakes of 2017, but in hindsight the overall effect of the campaign seems to have been minimal (except perhaps for the Lib Dems).

    His opponents really got wrong footed by him getting a deal. While I still worry about the risk at the end of the transition period, their attempts to reframe the term no deal to mean that and not getting a WA I dont think worked with the public.

    It showed he could get a win others said he could not, that those who said he wanted immediate no deal (like me) were wrong, and although more voted for it the impression that parliament would continue to seek to stop it altogether (even though it might have passed after more scrutiny).

    Bluntly, it undermined the Boris fear factor.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Good article to start the year! The power of optimism is very, very important - I know quite left-wing people who like Boris and liked Reagan for their cheery personalities. I personally prefer dour nuance and complexity (I like Gordon Brown and Jeremy Corbyn more than Tony Blair, though I do respect Tony's insights), but most voters like sunny uplands and simplicity, and we need to choose leaders who are able to project that (ideally with a more solid underlying foundation).

    I think that's right, and that its possible to believe and point out bad things that need fixing without giving the impression that everything is bloody awful.

    One thing I've mentioned before that always struck me was Cameron in a 2010 leader debate making as one of his very first points that not everything labour did was bad, and he would keep the good stuff.

    Now, that was probably just a bland promise designed to assure people he was not a rabid right winger, but I think it says something it was among the first points he made - it meant that however much he might say Labour were awful and needed replacing after 13 years, people could know he was suggesting everything had gotten worse, that the country was a pile of crap. It wasnt cheery like Boris, but it wasn't miserablist.
    On a related note, I don’t remember the Tory campaign spending much time attacking individual Labour manifesto commitments. Does that leave room for them to adopt any that they think are workable?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    That is really, and totally unnecessarily, nasty. As well as very unseasonable!
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Happy New Year to everyone!

    On topic, the PM’s election approach of posing as a new government was made more plausible by the composition and actions of Parliament, particularly since he became Prime Minister. He did not have the automatic ability to put through his own bills un-amended, and he could not prevent Parliament from putting through bills that he objected to.
    I also think that his election victory was far from inevitable as it relied on the deal with the EU for the WA and the agreement of opposing MPs to allow the election in the first place.
    Once the election was called then victory relied on not repeating the mistakes of 2017, but in hindsight the overall effect of the campaign seems to have been minimal (except perhaps for the Lib Dems).

    His opponents really got wrong footed by him getting a deal. While I still worry about the risk at the end of the transition period, their attempts to reframe the term no deal to mean that and not getting a WA I dont think worked with the public.

    It showed he could get a win others said he could not, that those who said he wanted immediate no deal (like me) were wrong, and although more voted for it the impression that parliament would continue to seek to stop it altogether (even though it might have passed after more scrutiny).

    Bluntly, it undermined the Boris fear factor.
    In hindsight the 17th of October may be the day that he won the election.
  • Options
    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    I cannot believe any poster would make such a comment, especially on NewYears Day of all days

    Totally unacceptable
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    That is really, and totally unnecessarily, nasty. As well as very unseasonable!
    Hes just being provocative because he thinks its edgy. It's like the difference between someone who often swears, and someone who peppers their speech with expletives as part of a 'cool' persona in a way that is unnatural (going by his quotes Cummings is the latter).
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    That is really, and totally unnecessarily, nasty. As well as very unseasonable!
    It is good though that our extreme left winger has admitted Johnson has a heart.

    They seem to have spent most of the last year doubting it.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    That is really, and totally unnecessarily, nasty. As well as very unseasonable!
    Utterly predictable though. It’s Wildean wit for clever 3 year olds.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
    Do you think he is? I reckon he had that style way before Corbyn was Labour leader, for both London Mayoral elections for a start.

    Unless he was copying Corbyn while JC was a backbencher?!
    Well, I did think that myself actually, after I had posted my comment. But I do think he’s going much more OTT on the personality stuff thing than before.

    It may however just be because he’s getting more expos...airtime than before so it’s more noticeable.
    I think he has been a 'personality' for a lot longer than you think.. I wonder when he started being referred to as 'Boris' in the media.

    Occurs to me that calling him 'Boris' is the equivalent of 'Julia did it' from 1984 for his detractors!
    He first came to popular consciousness with his appearances on Have I Got News For You. His bumbling appearances, such as when he got his name wrong in a mock Mastermind round, made him an instant hit, confirmed by his astoundingly incompetent first performance as host. They refer to their panellists by their first names, so ‘Boris’ is what stuck.

    I’ve never doubted his ‘personality’ label, but he always had some substance behind it. Early in his political career, his genius was putting policies across in a way people found easy to understand without talking down to them, or sending himself up while doing so so that they were enjoying talking to him. But recently, he seems to have more or less ditched the policy and concentrated on the persona.

    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    That is really, and totally unnecessarily, nasty. As well as very unseasonable!
    He's a Leeds United fan. Enough said...

    One of the blights of 2020 will be their return to the Premiership. Maybe we can find grounds to deduct them fifty points.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Mark, Leeds United made history last year by becoming the first team ever to be topping the table at this point yet fail to get promoted.

    You may be underestimating their ability to screw things up.

    [I don't have a huge interest, not into football, but would prefer to see them promoted].
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to change his ways so he can help people when he is clearly much happier talking about helping people. I cannot escape the conclusion he is one of the most arrogant men in parliament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he could do more good if he had stayed a backbencher or even if he was not an mp - he doesnt seem built to be a legislator. He wants to be a resistance, he could do that better out of parliament.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Happy new year and good health to all.

    Dogsitting 11 dogs plus 8 puppies overnight so no drinks for me. Still didnt appreciate them waking me up at 5.30 this morning. But if that's the worst thing about 2020 it will be a good year.

    Woken up by a vomiting dog. Hopefully not an omen.....
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982



    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's not how politics works now. Whatever happens we'll be told, through a barrage of shitposts, that he never made the promise or that it doesn't matter or have a look at this meme instead.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited January 2020
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to change his ways so he can help people when he is clearly much happier talking about helping people. I cannot escape the conclusion he is one of the most arrogant men in parliament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he could do more good if he had stayed a backbencher or even if he was not an mp - he doesnt seem built to be a legislator. He wants to be a resistance, he could do that better out of parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331

    Mr. Mark, Leeds United made history last year by becoming the first team ever to be topping the table at this point yet fail to get promoted.

    You may be underestimating their ability to screw things up.

    [I don't have a huge interest, not into football, but would prefer to see them promoted].

    The expression "Dirty Leeds" , from the Bremner Hunter era has not gone away..
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Happy New Year to everyone!

    On topic, the PM’s election approach of posing as a new government was made more plausible by the composition and actions of Parliament, particularly since he became Prime Minister. He did not have the automatic ability to put through his own bills un-amended, and he could not prevent Parliament from putting through bills that he objected to.
    I also think that his election victory was far from inevitable as it relied on the deal with the EU for the WA and the agreement of opposing MPs to allow the election in the first place.
    Once the election was called then victory relied on not repeating the mistakes of 2017, but in hindsight the overall effect of the campaign seems to have been minimal (except perhaps for the Lib Dems).

    His opponents really got wrong footed by him getting a deal. While I still worry about the risk at the end of the transition period, their attempts to reframe the term no deal to mean that and not getting a WA I dont think worked with the public.

    It showed he could get a win others said he could not, that those who said he wanted immediate no deal (like me) were wrong, and although more voted for it the impression that parliament would continue to seek to stop it altogether (even though it might have passed after more scrutiny).

    Bluntly, it undermined the Boris fear factor.

    Johnson’s willingness to fold to the EU and betray the DUP is a very hopeful indicator for the coming negotiations - as was his ability to paint it as a triumph. And the stronger the personality cult that builds up around him the harder it will be for the ERG loons to stop him doing it again. The one difficulty I see, though, is the fetishisation of a US trade deal. Prioritising that over one with the EU is the biggest Brexit banana skin out there.

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    FF43 said:

    Johnson says broadly what I would expect him to say. He attracts the usual hate that Twitter deals out to anyone of prominence. The remarkable thing is the number of true believers Who know absolutely that Johnson will transform Britain into a wonderful place. Someone even hails the "Dear Leader" without irony. These people literally believe in miracles. No other prime minister has ever been accorded such faith, but Johnson is, on his record, surely the one you should put the least faith in. Weird.

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1212141380425916416?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

    NHS cash ingestion - appropriate slip, it does always feel like it's swallowing money.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, good header.

    I do hope we don't see a tacky cult of personality building around "cheery chappy" Johnson.

    Too late. It's another way he's copying Corbyn's style.
    Do you think he is? I reckon he had that style way before Corbyn was Labour leader, for both London Mayoral elections for a start.

    Unless he was copying Corbyn while JC was a backbencher?!
    Well, I did think that myself actually, after I had posted my comment. But I do think he’s going much more OTT on the personality stuff thing than before.

    It may however just be because he’s getting more expos...airtime than before so it’s more noticeable.
    I think he has been a 'personality' for a lot longer than you think.. I wonder when he started being referred to as 'Boris' in the media.

    Occurs to me that calling him 'Boris' is the equivalent of 'Julia did it' from 1984 for his detractors!
    He first came to popular consciousness with his appearances on Have I Got News For You. His bumbling appearances, such as when he got his name wrong in a mock Mastermind round, made him an instant hit, confirmed by his astoundingly incompetent first performance as host. They refer to their panellists by their first names, so ‘Boris’ is what stuck.

    I’ve never doubted his ‘personality’ label, but he always had some substance behind it. Early in his political career, his genius was putting policies across in a way people found easy to understand without talking down to them, or sending himself up while doing so so that they were enjoying talking to him. But recently, he seems to have more or less ditched the policy and concentrated on the persona.

    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's the key thing. If he and his team can square the circle and deliver a recognisably cake and eat it Brexit, he will deservedly be PM as long as he wants.

    If he fails (and everything about his personality, approach so far and the logic of the situation makes me think he will) then is persona will go stale pretty quickly and terminally.
  • Options
    Dura_Ace said:



    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's not how politics works now. Whatever happens we'll be told, through a barrage of shitposts, that he never made the promise or that it doesn't matter or have a look at this meme instead.

    I am not so sure. People are not mugs. They’ll judge Johnson on whether he has made things better or worse for them and their families. He owns it all now. He has to deliver.

  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to change his ways so he can help people when he is clearly much happier talking about helping people. I cannot escape the conclusion he is one of the most arrogant men in parliament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he could do more good if he had stayed a backbencher or even if he was not an mp - he doesnt seem built to be a legislator. He wants to be a resistance, he could do that better out of parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
    Lifting out of poverty is a cynical exercise in spreadsheet manipulation with an arbitrary poverty line. The less we hear of that the better. Meanwhile poverty is something that needs to be addressed seriously.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    FF43 said:

    Happy New Year everyone. Sorry to hear Malc and Gallowgate but starting the year at the best hopefully things will improve.

    Happy New Year, wife is being pumped full of antibiotics, oxygen , etc so hopefully will start to pick up. Seemingly a nasty infection.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    Happy new year and good health to all.

    Dogsitting 11 dogs plus 8 puppies overnight so no drinks for me. Still didnt appreciate them waking me up at 5.30 this morning. But if that's the worst thing about 2020 it will be a good year.

    Woken up by a vomiting dog. Hopefully not an omen.....
    Not pleasant
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135

    Mr. Mark, Leeds United made history last year by becoming the first team ever to be topping the table at this point yet fail to get promoted.

    You may be underestimating their ability to screw things up.

    [I don't have a huge interest, not into football, but would prefer to see them promoted].

    The expression "Dirty Leeds" , from the Bremner Hunter era has not gone away..
    Nobby Stiles too.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited January 2020
    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    Happy New Year everyone. Sorry to hear Malc and Gallowgate but starting the year at the best hopefully things will improve.

    Happy New Year, wife is being pumped full of antibiotics, oxygen , etc so hopefully will start to pick up. Seemingly a nasty infection.
    Morning Malc, good to hear Mrs G is getting the treatment needed. Fingers crossed it works so she can go home soon.

    Hope you are feeling a bit better as well, although I imagine that’s a bit optimistic under the circumstances.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to change his ways so he can help people when he is clearly much happier talking about helping people. I cannot escape the conclusion he is one of the most arrogant men in parliament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he could do more good if he had stayed a backbencher or even if he was not an mp - he doesnt seem built to be a legislator. He wants to be a resistance, he could do that better out of parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
    There will never be a situation of zero poverty, the line just gets redrawn if a portion of society does better. ..having a washing machine, spin drier tumble drier ipad, 50 inch tele, you will probably be somewhere in the poverty area.
    It also depends on what the ACTUAL current description of poverty is, I for one have no idea.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to chament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he could do more good if he had stayed a backbencher or even if he was not an mp - he doesnt seem built to be a legislator. He wants to be a resistance, he could do that better out of parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
    There will never be a situation of zero poverty, the line just gets redrawn if a portion of society does better. ..having a washing machine, spin drier tumble drier ipad, 50 inch tele, you will probably be somewhere in the poverty area.
    It also depends on what the ACTUAL current description of poverty is, I for one have no idea.
    I don’t have a tumble dryer, nor a 50” TV. Does that make me poor?
  • Options

    isam said:

    Really? Dear me.




    That is really, and totally unnecessarily, nasty. As well as very unseasonable!
    He's a Leeds United fan. Enough said...

    One of the blights of 2020 will be their return to the Premiership. Maybe we can find grounds to deduct them fifty points.
    Hopefully they follow up their return with a doomed relegation scrap. I wouldn't mind seeing them relegated again, I certainly doubt they'll return to challenging for Champions League spots any time soon.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to chament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he couldof parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
    There will never be a situation of zero poverty, the line just gets redrawn if a portion of society does better. ..having a washing machine, spin drier tumble drier ipad, 50 inch tele, you will probably be somewhere in the poverty area.
    It also depends on what the ACTUAL current description of poverty is, I for one have no idea.
    I don’t have a tumble dryer, nor a 50” TV. Does that make me poor?

    No, you’re poor if you’re having to make choices around things like feeding and clothing your family, paying the rent and heating your home.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's critical Labour elect someone fairly competent as their leader (and not insane, of course). We require a decent Leader of the Opposition to hold the PM to account, and to be a viable alternative come the next General Election.

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    SNIP
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to chament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he could do more good if he had stayed a backbencher or even if he was not an mp - he doesnt seem built to be a legislator. He wants to be a resistance, he could do that better out of parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
    There will never be a situation of zero poverty, the line just gets redrawn if a portion of society does better. ..having a washing machine, spin drier tumble drier ipad, 50 inch tele, you will probably be somewhere in the poverty area.
    It also depends on what the ACTUAL current description of poverty is, I for one have no idea.
    I don’t have a tumble dryer, nor a 50” TV. Does that make me poor?
    Brassic, hope you have an erse in your troosers
  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    kle4 said:

    Happy New Year to everyone!

    On topic, the PM’s election approach of posing as a new government was made more plausible by the composition and actions of Parliament, particularly since he became Prime Minister. He did not have the automatic ability to put through his own bills un-amended, and he could not prevent Parliament from putting through bills that he objected to.
    I also think that his election victory was far from inevitable as it relied on the deal with the EU for the WA and the agreement of opposing MPs to allow the election in the first place.
    Once the election was called then victory relied on not repeating the mistakes of 2017, but in hindsight the overall effect of the campaign seems to have been minimal (except perhaps for the Lib Dems).

    His opponents really got wrong footed by him getting a deal. While I still worry about the risk at the end of the transition period, their attempts to reframe the term no deal to mean that and not getting a WA I dont think worked with the public.

    It showed he could get a win others said he could not, that those who said he wanted immediate no deal (like me) were wrong, and although more voted for it the impression that parliament would continue to seek to stop it altogether (even though it might have passed after more scrutiny).

    Bluntly, it undermined the Boris fear factor.

    Johnson’s willingness to fold to the EU and betray the DUP is a very hopeful indicator for the coming negotiations - as was his ability to paint it as a triumph. And the stronger the personality cult that builds up around him the harder it will be for the ERG loons to stop him doing it again. The one difficulty I see, though, is the fetishisation of a US trade deal. Prioritising that over one with the EU is the biggest Brexit banana skin out there.

    The Govt may well be massaging the Man Childs ego. All he wants to talk about is trade and if a County does not engage then he throws a strop on Twitter, i.e The EU. It is also politically savvy as it puts a bit of pressure on the EU.

    Do I think we will do a deal with the USA, no, unless Trump thinks it will help his election prospects and caves in big time.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    Dura_Ace said:



    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's not how politics works now. Whatever happens we'll be told, through a barrage of shitposts, that he never made the promise or that it doesn't matter or have a look at this meme instead.
    Yes, but will that be effective is the question.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I

    Labour MPs should remember what happened the last time they didn't act as gatekeepers (their new duty under the Miliband leadership rules) and 'broadened the debate' by putting a far left fruitcake on the shortlist.

    That ship has unfortunately sailed now. In 2015 there was a 15% rule. 35 MPs and MEPs were needed to be nominated, and there were only about 25 hard left members to nominate them.

    Now Labour have fewer MPs, a lower threshold of 10%, and this month we leave the EU and will no longer have any MEPs.

    So in February 2020, 21 MPs will be needed and there are around 40 hard left members to do the nominating. Plus the membership is much more left wing now.

    So if the hard left stand again, they win again.
    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.
    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to chament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he couldof parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
    There will never be a situation of zero poverty, the line just gets redrawn if a portion of society does better. ..having a washing machine, spin drier tumble drier ipad, 50 inch tele, you will probably be somewhere in the poverty area.
    It also depends on what the ACTUAL current description of poverty is, I for one have no idea.
    I don’t have a tumble dryer, nor a 50” TV. Does that make me poor?

    No, you’re poor if you’re having to make choices around things like feeding and clothing your family, paying the rent and heating your home.

    Sounds like a much better definition to me.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    Happy new year and good health to all.

    Dogsitting 11 dogs plus 8 puppies overnight so no drinks for me. Still didnt appreciate them waking me up at 5.30 this morning. But if that's the worst thing about 2020 it will be a good year.

    Woken up by a vomiting dog. Hopefully not an omen.....
    That depends if it vomited on you, or just nearby. One is good luck, in a way.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331

    Dura_Ace said:



    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's not how politics works now. Whatever happens we'll be told, through a barrage of shitposts, that he never made the promise or that it doesn't matter or have a look at this meme instead.

    I am not so sure. People are not mugs. They’ll judge Johnson on whether he has made things better or worse for them and their families. He owns it all now. He has to deliver.


    You were not saying that about Blair in 97' I'll be bound. Exultant more like. You are just trying to pin everything on Boris because Labour are so shite and Boris is the only avenue you have open to vent your frustration. Boris many end up being shite but don't try and pretend he is Atlas, because he isn't.
  • Options
    @malcolmg
    Hope you and your wife are feeling better. I was in hospital with antibiotics and oxygen myself a couple of months ago and I know how stressful it can be.
    Hope the rest of the year is better!
  • Options

    Dura_Ace said:



    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's not how politics works now. Whatever happens we'll be told, through a barrage of shitposts, that he never made the promise or that it doesn't matter or have a look at this meme instead.

    I am not so sure. People are not mugs. They’ll judge Johnson on whether he has made things better or worse for them and their families. He owns it all now. He has to deliver.


    You were not saying that about Blair in 97' I'll be bound. Exultant more like. You are just trying to pin everything on Boris because Labour are so shite and Boris is the only avenue you have open to vent your frustration. Boris many end up being shite but don't try and pretend he is Atlas, because he isn't.

    I am not pretending Johnson is Atlas. But he is the man in charge. The buck stops with him. As it does with all Prime Ministers.

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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    edited January 2020
    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    Happy New Year everyone. Sorry to hear Malc and Gallowgate but starting the year at the best hopefully things will improve.

    Happy New Year, wife is being pumped full of antibiotics, oxygen , etc so hopefully will start to pick up. Seemingly a nasty infection.
    So sorry to hear that - hope for an astonishingly fast recovery for her.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,936

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:



    That's the argument Corbyn meant he had won, the important one in the party. With the public? Well who cares about suffering people? Not him.

    A man who supported terrorists, donated money to Holocaust deniers and helped cover up the depredations of Islington’s paedophiles doesn’t care about the suffering of the vulnerable?

    I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you,
    In all seriousness I am sure he cares about these things a lot more than me even with those negatives. But not enough to chament.

    And if he does or did a lot of great things for people as a backbench mp and as a campaigner, then perhaps he couldof parliament.
    How many people did Blair and Brown lift out of poverty? Many fewer than they claimed, but it was still a significant number.

    How many has Corbyn lifted out of poverty? Well, precisely fuck all. He even voted against most of Brown’s programme.

    So I sort of agree, but I’m doubting if he actually does care. He may think he cares, which is not quite the same thing.
    There will never be a situation of zero poverty, the line just gets redrawn if a portion of society does better. ..having a washing machine, spin drier tumble drier ipad, 50 inch tele, you will probably be somewhere in the poverty area.
    It also depends on what the ACTUAL current description of poverty is, I for one have no idea.
    I don’t have a tumble dryer, nor a 50” TV. Does that make me poor?

    No, you’re poor if you’re having to make choices around things like feeding and clothing your family, paying the rent and heating your home.

    The very simple test I use is that if you have to add up the cost of all the items in your shopping trolley as you go while food shopping, you're poor. If you just throw whatever takes your fancy in, you're doing OK for yourself.
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    kle4 said:

    Happy New Year to everyone!

    On topic, the PM’s election approach of posing as a new government was made more plausible by the composition and actions of Parliament, particularly since he became Prime Minister. He did not have the automatic ability to put through his own bills un-amended, and he could not prevent Parliament from putting through bills that he objected to.
    I also think that his election victory was far from inevitable as it relied on the deal with the EU for the WA and the agreement of opposing MPs to allow the election in the first place.
    Once the election was called then victory relied on not repeating the mistakes of 2017, but in hindsight the overall effect of the campaign seems to have been minimal (except perhaps for the Lib Dems).

    His opponents really got wrong footed by him getting a deal. While I still worry about the risk at the end of the transition period, their attempts to reframe the term no deal to mean that and not getting a WA I dont think worked with the public.

    It showed he could get a win others said he could not, that those who said he wanted immediate no deal (like me) were wrong, and although more voted for it the impression that parliament would continue to seek to stop it altogether (even though it might have passed after more scrutiny).

    Bluntly, it undermined the Boris fear factor.

    Johnson’s willingness to fold to the EU and betray the DUP is a very hopeful indicator for the coming negotiations - as was his ability to paint it as a triumph. And the stronger the personality cult that builds up around him the harder it will be for the ERG loons to stop him doing it again. The one difficulty I see, though, is the fetishisation of a US trade deal. Prioritising that over one with the EU is the biggest Brexit banana skin out there.

    The Govt may well be massaging the Man Childs ego. All he wants to talk about is trade and if a County does not engage then he throws a strop on Twitter, i.e The EU. It is also politically savvy as it puts a bit of pressure on the EU.

    Do I think we will do a deal with the USA, no, unless Trump thinks it will help his election prospects and caves in big time.

    All logic suggests a US trade deal at the expense of one with the EU would be a huge mistake. It would have the most negative effects in the places that the Tories have just won. You’d have thought that would carry a lot of weight. Here’s hoping.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited January 2020
    @SouthamObserver

    That is old school, and probably correct, but politicians use relative poverty now don't they?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    edited January 2020
    Mr. G, get well soon.

    Edited extra bit: sorry, misread the post. I hope your wife gets well soon.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Oh glory. This article is so full of glorious unintended ironies it is actually quite funny.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ian-lavery-communities-represented-labour-21192144

    He claims ‘the architects of Labour’s defeat’ were its Blairite backbenchers.

    Then he claims the election was lost because of Brexit.

    Then he says the party needs to listen to Labour voters.

    And he apparently does not realise those three positions are totally contradictory.

    If Ian Lavery becomes leader, deputy leader, party chairman or anything other than the janitor at Wansbeck Working Men’s club, Labour are utterly, totally screwed. We will be seriously talking about Tory gain Bootle.
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    One simple truth it would be wise not to lose sight of is that ‪what the successful Labour leadership candidate says before the election matters far less that what they do after it.‬
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    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    Happy New Year everyone. Sorry to hear Malc and Gallowgate but starting the year at the best hopefully things will improve.

    Happy New Year, wife is being pumped full of antibiotics, oxygen , etc so hopefully will start to pick up. Seemingly a nasty infection.
    Good to hear that Malc. All the best
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    Dura_Ace said:



    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's not how politics works now. Whatever happens we'll be told, through a barrage of shitposts, that he never made the promise or that it doesn't matter or have a look at this meme instead.

    I am not so sure. People are not mugs. They’ll judge Johnson on whether he has made things better or worse for them and their families. He owns it all now. He has to deliver.


    You were not saying that about Blair in 97' I'll be bound. Exultant more like. You are just trying to pin everything on Boris because Labour are so shite and Boris is the only avenue you have open to vent your frustration. Boris many end up being shite but don't try and pretend he is Atlas, because he isn't.

    I am not pretending Johnson is Atlas. But he is the man in charge. The buck stops with him. As it does with all Prime Ministers.

    Atlas Mugged.
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    Happy New Year everyone.

    And congratulations to @williamglenn who has clearly officially won his bet now which seemed outlandish when he did it. Even if its only won by the skin of the teeth, its not a photo finish and a win is a win so well done!
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    One simple truth it would be wise not to lose sight of is that ‪what the successful Labour leadership candidate says before the election matters far less that what they do after it.‬

    Given how many of Corbyn’s previous statements have been used against him, I’m not sure that is always the case.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited January 2020

    Dura_Ace said:



    Now it’s delivery time. He cannot keep all the promises he has made. His fate will rest on the ones he decides to break. And how he responds to events beyond his control.

    That's not how politics works now. Whatever happens we'll be told, through a barrage of shitposts, that he never made the promise or that it doesn't matter or have a look at this meme instead.

    I am not so sure. People are not mugs. They’ll judge Johnson on whether he has made things better or worse for them and their families. He owns it all now. He has to deliver.


    You were not saying that about Blair in 97' I'll be bound. Exultant more like. You are just trying to pin everything on Boris because Labour are so shite and Boris is the only avenue you have open to vent your frustration. Boris many end up being shite but don't try and pretend he is Atlas, because he isn't.

    I am not pretending Johnson is Atlas. But he is the man in charge. The buck stops with him. As it does with all Prime Ministers.

    A northern male rabbit is having his holiday at No10!
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    One simple truth it would be wise not to lose sight of is that ‪what the successful Labour leadership candidate says before the election matters far less that what they do after it.‬

    Given how many of Corbyn’s previous statements have been used against him, I’m not sure that is always the case.

    That’s a fair point, but what I meant was more about what they say during the election campaign. However, Corbyn did reinforce what he had previously said because of what he did as Labour leader. So his actions mattered a lot.

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    One simple truth it would be wise not to lose sight of is that ‪what the successful Labour leadership candidate says before the election matters far less that what they do after it.‬

    Given how many of Corbyn’s previous statements have been used against him, I’m not sure that is always the case.

    That’s a fair point, but what I meant was more about what they say during the election campaign. However, Corbyn did reinforce what he had previously said because of what he did as Labour leader. So his actions mattered a lot.

    I agree about the unimportance of statements made during the campaign.
    It might be an idea though for someone to check that there isn’t anything too bad in their earlier published works.
    Having said that, Johnson seems to have largely got away with it so far.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited January 2020
    The link doesnt work, but it seems this was a tweet by The Independent...

    https://twitter.com/independent/status/682144117732683776?s=21
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Still should not be importing electricity when we have the massive tidal ranges we are blessed with..... Importing tidal power from France - their cheapest to produce - would be the real bloody irony.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    edited January 2020

    kle4 said:


    His opponents really got wrong footed by him getting a deal. While I still worry about the risk at the end of the transition period, their attempts to reframe the term no deal to mean that and not getting a WA I dont think worked with the public.

    It showed he could get a win others said he could not, that those who said he wanted immediate no deal (like me) were wrong, and although more voted for it the impression that parliament would continue to seek to stop it altogether (even though it might have passed after more scrutiny).

    Bluntly, it undermined the Boris fear factor.

    Johnson’s willingness to fold to the EU and betray the DUP is a very hopeful indicator for the coming negotiations - as was his ability to paint it as a triumph. And the stronger the personality cult that builds up around him the harder it will be for the ERG loons to stop him doing it again. The one difficulty I see, though, is the fetishisation of a US trade deal. Prioritising that over one with the EU is the biggest Brexit banana skin out there.

    That's a very optimistic take. I see the lack of accountability as a cover for some very poor decision-making.

    The Northern Ireland protocol was made without any consultation with those that are affected by it. (The thought apparently never entered Johnson's consideration). No-one in Northern Ireland wants it. It is markedly worse for Northern Ireland than May's Deal, as it imposes unaffordable costs on an already fragile Northern Ireland economy. It drives a coach and horses through the identity issue. The DUP might be an unattractive bunch but they represent a legitimate and large interest in Northern Ireland. The deal is probably unworkable and Johnson is lying about its treaty obligations.

    Johnson went ahead with it precisely because he agreed with the ERG loons and their interest is more important to him than the Union or the interests of one of its constituent nations.
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    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:


    His opponents really got wrong footed by him getting a deal. While I still worry about the risk at the end of the transition period, their attempts to reframe the term no deal to mean that and not getting a WA I dont think worked with the public.

    It showed he could get a win others said he could not, that those who said he wanted immediate no deal (like me) were wrong, and although more voted for it the impression that parliament would continue to seek to stop it altogether (even though it might have passed after more scrutiny).

    Bluntly, it undermined the Boris fear factor.

    Johnson’s willingness to fold to the EU and betray the DUP is a very hopeful indicator for the coming negotiations - as was his ability to paint it as a triumph. And the stronger the personality cult that builds up around him the harder it will be for the ERG loons to stop him doing it again. The one difficulty I see, though, is the fetishisation of a US trade deal. Prioritising that over one with the EU is the biggest Brexit banana skin out there.

    That's a very optimistic take. I see the lack of accountability as a cover for some very poor decision-making.

    The Northern Ireland protocol was made without any consultation with those that are affected by it. (The thought apparently never entered Johnson's consideration). No-one in Northern Ireland wants it. It is markedly worse for Northern Ireland than May's Deal, as it imposes unaffordable costs on an already fragile Northern Ireland economy. It drives a coach and horses through the identity issue. The DUP might be an unattractive bunch but they represent a legitimate and large interest in Northern Ireland.

    Johnson went ahead with it precisely because he agreed with the ERG loons and their interest is more important to him than the Union or the interests of one of its constituent nations.

    Yep, all fair. My view is entirely Anglo-centric as my assumption is the UK is done and dusted. It’s merely a matter of how long the decoupling takes. Clearly, a PM who truly valued the Union would not have done as Johnson did.

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    One simple truth it would be wise not to lose sight of is that ‪what the successful Labour leadership candidate says before the election matters far less that what they do after it.‬

    Given how many of Corbyn’s previous statements have been used against him, I’m not sure that is always the case.

    That’s a fair point, but what I meant was more about what they say during the election campaign. However, Corbyn did reinforce what he had previously said because of what he did as Labour leader. So his actions mattered a lot.

    Agreed 100%. In 2017 the Tories tried to use his historical words against him but voters largely dismissed it. His actions in the years afterwards made his words bite him because they reinforced the narrative of his leadership itself.

    Tony Blair was previously a Marxist and joined Labour on the Bennite left of the party, like Corbyn. That wasn't held against him as leader because his actions as leader weren't like that.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    isam said:

    The link doesnt work, but it seems this was a tweet by The Independent...

    https://twitter.com/independent/status/682144117732683776?s=21

    Given she ended up being taken from behind and completely buggered, I have to say she seems to have been right to be afraid of it.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    It's incredible to think the reason we have so much gas capacity right now is because just eight years ago nobody thought non-carbon non-nuclear energy would be an economic proposition for another 30 years.

    The progress since then is just astonishing.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    @malcolmg , all the best to both of you.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,001
    Boris positivity theory is overplayed. He won campaigning against the EU and against Corbyn, but not for anything in the strict sense.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    The link doesnt work, but it seems this was a tweet by The Independent...

    https://twitter.com/independent/status/682144117732683776?s=21

    Given she ended up being taken from behind and completely buggered, I have to say she seems to have been right to be afraid of it.
    And she did have Alan Clark in the government.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    edited January 2020
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    The link doesnt work, but it seems this was a tweet by The Independent...

    https://twitter.com/independent/status/682144117732683776?s=21

    Given she ended up being taken from behind and completely buggered, I have to say she seems to have been right to be afraid of it.
    Given this was from the 1985 30 year paper release and HIV and AIDS was appearing at the time it's not actually that surprising.
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    ydoethur said:

    It's incredible to think the reason we have so much gas capacity right now is because just eight years ago nobody thought non-carbon non-nuclear energy would be an economic proposition for another 30 years.

    The progress since then is just astonishing.
    At least while we transition to non-carbon we aren't burning coal anymore. People talk about the eyesore of windmills but I think that's ludicrous, I used to live near Fiddlers Ferry Power station (coal) which is due to be decommissioned this year. I still drive past it regularly to visit family. The area around Fiddlers Ferry has been transformed in recent years with a lot of new business and residential developments but also a large windfarm in the area - compared to Fiddlers Ferry the windmills are elegant and much better to look at. Far better than the puffs of smoke that Fiddlers Ferry used to be permanently emitting.

    The transformation over the last decade is remarkable. I see no reason at this rate why we can't end this decade generating at least 75-80% if not more of our electricity from zero carbon sources.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    ydoethur said:

    It's incredible to think the reason we have so much gas capacity right now is because just eight years ago nobody thought non-carbon non-nuclear energy would be an economic proposition for another 30 years.

    The progress since then is just astonishing.
    At least while we transition to non-carbon we aren't burning coal anymore. People talk about the eyesore of windmills but I think that's ludicrous, I used to live near Fiddlers Ferry Power station (coal) which is due to be decommissioned this year. I still drive past it regularly to visit family. The area around Fiddlers Ferry has been transformed in recent years with a lot of new business and residential developments but also a large windfarm in the area - compared to Fiddlers Ferry the windmills are elegant and much better to look at. Far better than the puffs of smoke that Fiddlers Ferry used to be permanently emitting.

    The transformation over the last decade is remarkable. I see no reason at this rate why we can't end this decade generating at least 75-80% if not more of our electricity from zero carbon sources.
    Energy density, baseload and power storage are the three major challenges facing renewables. Hopefully the 2020s sees the same huge advancements for these as we had for generating renewables in the 2010s.
This discussion has been closed.