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  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    edited January 2020
    Byronic said:

    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.

    Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.

    What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
    Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.

    Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
    It's not hard to understand the nuance

    Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.

    HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again

    It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
    Mind boggling. I have no problem with your 3rd and 4th paragraph (although I disagree with them) in isolation, but this was in response to Stark Dawning's post to which you started with 'I agree'!

    And you can't see an issue with that? It is not a nuance and it wasn't just pointed out by me.

    You agreed with SD and then immediately did 180 degree turn.

    You also can't see that other people may hold similar but completely opposite views to you and accept that. I hold equally as strong opposite views to you. Although I think your views are barking mad I respect your right to hold barking mad views even though yours are obviously wrong :)
  • Alistair said:

    Jess Phillips's "Ultra-Yoon trashing the Smith Commission" stance is perfect for the job at hand, winning the votes of Labour member.

    Labour members in England don't care.
    Labour members in Scotland are now ultra-yoons who would outlaw the SNP if they had the chance.

    Jess will clean up in Scotland.

    Nandy wants some of that action.

    https://twitter.com/TeamNandy/status/1216733417368358912?s=20
    An international commission - just for Scots???
    Fucked if I know what she's talking about, though I'd bet odds on that she'd want Gordon Brown to lead said pie-in-the-sky international commission.

    The fact that Nandy's spouting this in Dagenham suggests that she really hasn't though it through.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    malcolmg said:

    Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.

    The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18157697.jess-phillips-become-labour-leader-party-will-100-per-cent-committed-union/

    LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon.
    PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
    I think Jess is unwise to go down the hardcore unionist route. I think a lot of Labour people have come to accept the arguments for Scottish independence.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,151
    Alistair said:

    Jess Phillips's "Ultra-Yoon trashing the Smith Commission" stance is perfect for the job at hand, winning the votes of Labour member.

    Labour members in England don't care.
    Labour members in Scotland are now ultra-yoons who would outlaw the SNP if they had the chance.

    Jess will clean up in Scotland.

    Wonder if her plan is to get a lot of the required CLP nominations via Scottish CLPs. That actually isn't a bad plan.
    Of course, in terms of winning the actual ballot itself, winning over most SLAB members doesn't count for that much, as Owen Smith found out.
  • malcolmg said:

    Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.

    The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18157697.jess-phillips-become-labour-leader-party-will-100-per-cent-committed-union/

    LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon.
    PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
    I think Jess is unwise to go down the hardcore unionist route. I think a lot of Labour people have come to accept the arguments for Scottish independence.
    So, despite the bleating, it's actually Labour that are the party of English Nationalism
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    edited January 2020
    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.

    Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.

    What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
    Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.

    Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
    It's not hard to understand the nuance

    Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.

    HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again

    It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
    Mind boggling. I have no problem with your 3rd and 4th paragraph (although I disagree with them) in isolation, but this was in response to Stark Dawning's post to which you started with 'I agree'!

    And you can't see an issue with that? It is not a nuance and it wasn't just pointed out by me.

    You agreed with SD and then immediately did 180 degree turn.

    You also can't see that other people may hold similar but completely opposite views to you and accept that. I hold equally as strong opposite views to you. Although I think your views are barking mad I respect your right to hold barking mad views even though yours are obviously wrong :)
    Sorry I have just got it. When you say 'I kind of agree' you really mean 'I kind of don't agree' or more subtly 'I agree sometimes, but not in this case' and then go for it big time.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Barnesian said:

    Mr. Barnesian, the 'hatchet job' was Corbyn's own words being quoted at him.

    Nobody made him call Hezbollah and Hamas his friends, or attend events commemorating the rise of the Ayatollah in Iran.

    It's over. You're fighting the last war.
    Indeed. I suspect many of the PB Tories are deeply saddened to see their bogeyman go. They will learn to accept it, in time.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    Rather like Star Trek in reverse?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited January 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    As with apartheid I just do not get this habit of the left of obsessing over perceived injustice in arbitrarily selected far away countries of which we know little. What have the Palestinians got that the uighur and rohingya haven't, and anyway surely it is a betrayal of all the uk victims of the evil Tories for the uk left to spend most of their time worrying about countries which are not the uk? Can these people not be anti Semites in their spare time?

    I think internationalist is better than insular so I don't share the general sentiment. But I do agree with the point about selectivity and bias. For example, take a Brit who lives in North London and has no particular personal connection to the Israel Palestine conflict. Now let's say this person has 100 units of emotional and intellectual energy to devote to the issue of people being oppressed in far off lands. If they choose to use up, say, 80 of those 100 units on the Palestinians, leaving just 20 for all others, I would suggest that this constitutes a piece of evidence - although far from proof - that they are unlikely to be free of antisemitism.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    TOPPING said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    I'm large green on La Thornberry much of it at 130s. Was thinking of laying off some of that at 70s but I think she will tighten further. There are two grown ups in the race and she is one of them.
    She has no chance of winning.

    You need to sell before that becomes obvious to everyone
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:
    Considering Bloomberg is supposed to be targeting California he looks like a big sell nationally at 9-1.
    already laid as much as I can afford to lose!!

    truly the David Miliband of our time
    Under statement, lol.
    If he reaches 3/1 we can promote him to the Marco Rubio of our time?
    New trousers all round for PBers if he hits that.
    Never mind Bloomberg. Some of us are going to be burnt by Bernie at this rate. And then have to try and survive four more years of Trump.

    Had a conference call with our fund managers this morning. Apparently the City are at least 85% confident that Trump is going to be re-elected. I was surprised but the expectation is that the US economy will get pumped up this year (as usually happens in election years to be fair) and will see the Donald home. Apart from that most of the news was good.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert demoeven just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.

    What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
    Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.

    Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
    It's not hard to understand the nuance

    Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.

    HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again

    It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
    Mind boggling. I have no problem with your 3rd and 4th paragraph (although I disagree with them) in isolation, but this was in response to Stark Dawning's post to which you started with 'I agree'!

    And you can't see an issue with that? It is not a nuance and it wasn't just pointed out by me.

    You agreed with SD and then immediately did 180 degree turn.

    You also can't see that other people may hold similar but completely opposite views to you and accept that. I hold equally as strong opposite views to you. Although I think your views are barking mad I respect your right to hold barking mad views even though yours are obviously wrong :)
    You forget that while eloquent, @Byronic is not the sharpest tool in the box.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Sensible? Not something you could normally attribute to Mason, but in this case yes.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    To press home the Brexiteer victory, I wonder which remainer stronghold Byronic would settle for the burning of, a la Atlanta in the American civil war....

    Richmond? (upon Thames, not Virginia).
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    I'm large green on La Thornberry much of it at 130s. Was thinking of laying off some of that at 70s but I think she will tighten further. There are two grown ups in the race and she is one of them.
    Jess Philips should probably be longer than Thornberry.
    They might both challenge L4%K
  • Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:
    Considering Bloomberg is supposed to be targeting California he looks like a big sell nationally at 9-1.
    already laid as much as I can afford to lose!!

    truly the David Miliband of our time
    Under statement, lol.
    If he reaches 3/1 we can promote him to the Marco Rubio of our time?
    Rubio went odds on!
    I was so thankful for that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Byronic said:

    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.

    Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.

    What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
    Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.

    Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
    It's not hard to understand the nuance

    Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.

    HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again

    It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
    The behaviour of the last Parliament and many outside it was profoundly undemocratic and damaging but many of those responsible have paid the price and now I just want to get on.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    I'm large green on La Thornberry much of it at 130s. Was thinking of laying off some of that at 70s but I think she will tighten further. There are two grown ups in the race and she is one of them.
    She has no chance of winning.

    You need to sell before that becomes obvious to everyone
    I don't think she will win although I as a Tory fear her most as LOTO. So yes I will think about laying off some risk.
  • kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    As with apartheid I just do not get this habit of the left of obsessing over perceived injustice in arbitrarily selected far away countries of which we know little. What have the Palestinians got that the uighur and rohingya haven't, and anyway surely it is a betrayal of all the uk victims of the evil Tories for the uk left to spend most of their time worrying about countries which are not the uk? Can these people not be anti Semites in their spare time?

    I think internationalist is better than insular so I don't share the general sentiment. But I do agree with the point about selectivity and bias. For example, take a Brit who lives in North London and has no particular personal connection to the Israel Palestine conflict. Now let's say this person has 100 units of emotional and intellectual energy to devote to the issue of people being oppressed in far off lands. If they choose to use up, say, 80 of those 100 units on the Palestinians, leaving just 20 for all others, I would suggest that this constitutes a piece of evidence - although far from proof - that they are unlikely to be free of antisemitism.
    I remember when people used to make a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. It wasn't even that long ago.

    It's no surprise the Jewish position has evolved.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Barnesian said:

    I think the key factor was not policy, people or the campaigns. It was Labour and LDs agreeing to a General Election at that time.

    LDs agreed for party reasons based on the Euro results (as did the SNP). I think Labour were chickened into it plus hubris from Corbyn who thought he could pull the 2017 trick again. Johnson couldn't believe his luck. From then on it was nailed on (except for my model, sorry about that!).

    Yes. Given that Johnson timed and framed the GE perfectly, it follows that the Opposition were suckers to play ball with it. If only we could turn the clock back.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Sensible? Not something you could normally attribute to Mason, but in this case yes.
    SKS is ultra boring.

    SKS is ultra Remain

    SKS is ultra London Bubble

    Lab will never win under SKS the Ultra Boring Ultra Remain Ultra London Bubble Candidate
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    Byronic said:

    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.

    Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.

    What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
    Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.

    Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
    It's not hard to understand the nuance

    Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.

    HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again

    It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
    The behaviour of the last Parliament and many outside it was profoundly undemocratic and damaging but many of those responsible have paid the price and now I just want to get on.
    I trust you're referring to the Prime Minister's attempt to suspend Parliamentary democracy. The price continues to be paid and the rot is firmly set in.

    At some point enough Leavers will realise what a shitshow they have been advocating. Until then, the country is going to continue to spiral downwards.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    malcolmg said:

    More lies, there were no personal promises, what a jerk.
    You sound surprised.
    So now what for Indy? Illegal referendum?
    The Yestapo have to suck it up for another 5 years.
    Not necessarily. If Brexit causes a big recession and the polls swing wildly to Yes I can see the SNP doing a Catalonia.

    Events dear boy...

    Notwithstanding @HYUFD ’s tank brigade up the A1.
    And the Catalans held an unofficial independence referendum which the Spanish and international community ignored
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    What I heard from the voters I talked to was mounting angst and indecision. That Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are too far to the left. That Biden is too old. That Pete Buttigieg is too young. That Tom Steyer has too much money. I heard them yearn for a candidate who was just right, squarely in the middle, in the middle of the age range, and of the political spectrum, and of the country itself

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/01/14/amy-klobuchar-2020-campaign-profile-democrats-iowa-098476
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    The question is, just how left wing is Starmer? Is he going to be Corbyn but without the IRA/antisemitism stuff?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Byronic said:

    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.

    Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.

    What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
    Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.

    Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
    It's not hard to understand the nuance

    Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.

    HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again

    It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
    That sounds like some particularly antidemocratic and absurd crap in of itself.
    Which was presumably your intention ?
  • DavidL said:

    Byronic said:

    kjh said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.

    Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.

    What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
    Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.

    Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
    It's not hard to understand the nuance

    Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.

    HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again

    It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
    The behaviour of the last Parliament and many outside it was profoundly undemocratic and damaging but many of those responsible have paid the price and now I just want to get on.
    I trust you're referring to the Prime Minister's attempt to suspend Parliamentary democracy. The price continues to be paid and the rot is firmly set in.

    At some point enough Leavers will realise what a shitshow they have been advocating. Until then, the country is going to continue to spiral downwards.
    The shitshow will be nothing compared to those citizens of South Sudan Mk 2 will have to endure. Just be thankful you're not a Scot.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    :lol: Perhaps you haven't seen/heard some of the others.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    tlg86 said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    The question is, just how left wing is Starmer? Is he going to be Corbyn but without the IRA/antisemitism stuff?
    More Ed Miliband without the bacon sandwich
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:
    Considering Bloomberg is supposed to be targeting California he looks like a big sell nationally at 9-1.
    already laid as much as I can afford to lose!!

    truly the David Miliband of our time
    Under statement, lol.
    If he reaches 3/1 we can promote him to the Marco Rubio of our time?
    New trousers all round for PBers if he hits that.
    Three Quarter Lengths.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:
    Considering Bloomberg is supposed to be targeting California he looks like a big sell nationally at 9-1.
    already laid as much as I can afford to lose!!

    truly the David Miliband of our time
    Under statement, lol.
    If he reaches 3/1 we can promote him to the Marco Rubio of our time?
    New trousers all round for PBers if he hits that.
    Never mind Bloomberg. Some of us are going to be burnt by Bernie at this rate. And then have to try and survive four more years of Trump.

    As long as we make money, it's all good.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Dem primary voters: here is a taste of what is to come if you put Bernie against Trump:

    "The most substantively outrageous presidential campaign in American history has some ­serious chance of success.

    Bernie Sanders is leading or near the top of most polls in the first two Democratic nominating states of Iowa and New Hampshire. He could plausibly win both, which would instantly transform the race into an ugly, desperate effort to Stop Bernie."

    https://nypost.com/2020/01/13/bernie-sanders-wild-radicalism-has-serious-chance-of-taking-over-dem-party/

    Yes the race would move from Stop Trump to Stop Sanders with many swing voters
  • Off Topic

    ***** Betting Post *****

    For those who fancy a modest winning single bet on this year's Oscars next month, instead of the usual ritual of losing money by attempting to cover every category, PBers could do worse than to back Sam Mendes' 1917 available at best odds of 11/4 (3.75), where yesterday's Times states "Bar a campaigning disaster between now and early February ... the award is almost guaranteed."
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    Barnesian said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Two variables were different in 2019 from 2017 -

    Labours Brexit policy
    Boris was Tory leader

    And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!

    I doubt that Labour would have done better if they had stuck to their original policy of Soft Brexit, no Ref2. Risked a great deal worse if anything. Mass Remainer defection to the LDs. It was a forced change in stance. It was unsatisfactory but the best of the bad options available.

    So IMO the key factor was not Labour's Brexit policy. The main difference on Brexit compared to 2017 was that by Dec 2019 people were truly sick and tired of the impasse. They wanted it "done" and Johnson successfully positioned a Con majority as the way to ensure that. He framed and timed the GE perfectly. It was top top politics.
    I think the key factor was not policy, people or the campaigns. It was Labour and LDs agreeing to a General Election at that time.

    LDs agreed for party reasons based on the Euro results (as did the SNP). I think Labour were chickened into it plus hubris from Corbyn who thought he could pull the 2017 trick again. Johnson couldn't believe his luck. From then on it was nailed on (except for my model, sorry about that!).
    Agree 100% with that.

    Was about to rabbit on about where it then went wrong for the LDs, but then realised I was boring myself let alone anyone on here.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    :lol: Perhaps you haven't seen/heard some of the others.
    There are degrees of barking.. he is at the completely bonkers end. Tim. Late of this parish used to defend his Newsnight era and say that he was a moderate. He will not be saying that now....
  • Off Topic

    ***** Betting Post *****

    For those who fancy a modest winning single bet on this year's Oscars next month, instead of the usual ritual of losing money by attempting to cover every category, PBers could do worse than to back Sam Mendes' 1917 available at best odds of 11/4 (3.75), where yesterday's Times states "Bar a campaigning disaster between now and early February ... the award is almost guaranteed."

    Which category?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    TOPPING said:

    Yeah. It's all shoulda, woulda, coulda.

    (I am right, though.)

    I really do judge it unlikely that the LDs would have gone for Revoke if Labour had not pivoted from Leave to Ref2. They would surely have grabbed the opportunity to be the only main party offering a "People's Vote".

    No doubt the Swinson memoirs will illuminate.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Two variables were different in 2019 from 2017 -

    Labours Brexit policy
    Boris was Tory leader

    And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!

    I doubt that Labour would have done better if they had stuck to their original policy of Soft Brexit, no Ref2. Risked a great deal worse if anything. Mass Remainer defection to the LDs. It was a forced change in stance. It was unsatisfactory but the best of the bad options available.

    So IMO the key factor was not Labour's Brexit policy. The main difference on Brexit compared to 2017 was that by Dec 2019 people were truly sick and tired of the impasse. They wanted it "done" and Johnson successfully positioned a Con majority as the way to ensure that. He framed and timed the GE perfectly. It was top top politics.
    I think the key factor was not policy, people or the campaigns. It was Labour and LDs agreeing to a General Election at that time.

    LDs agreed for party reasons based on the Euro results (as did the SNP). I think Labour were chickened into it plus hubris from Corbyn who thought he could pull the 2017 trick again. Johnson couldn't believe his luck. From then on it was nailed on (except for my model, sorry about that!).
    Agree 100% with that.

    Was about to rabbit on about where it then went wrong for the LDs, but then realised I was boring myself let alone anyone on here.
    I absolutely agree. Their decisions to agree to an early election were both nuts.


  • What do you think PBers?

    Bailey fair price?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited January 2020

    Off Topic

    ***** Betting Post *****

    For those who fancy a modest winning single bet on this year's Oscars next month, instead of the usual ritual of losing money by attempting to cover every category, PBers could do worse than to back Sam Mendes' 1917 available at best odds of 11/4 (3.75), where yesterday's Times states "Bar a campaigning disaster between now and early February ... the award is almost guaranteed."

    Which category?
    Best Movie. It's almost written to tick every box that award requires.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    You're having a bad day today. Lab wouldn't have lost remainers to the LDs because the LDs were advocating revoke and we saw how popular that was. Remainers would have been happy to have a soft Brexit option given that the other two extremes (revoke and potentially diamond-hard) were and are hugely problematic.

    Remainers are generally intelligent beings who realise that the EURef result needs to be honoured but we don't need to shoot our feet off to show that we can manage without shoes.

    You may be right - and we will never know - but I prefer my analysis. If Labour had gone into the GE as an unambiguously Leave party, I think the LDs would have stuck with Ref2 as their policy. This juxtaposition would have constituted an enormous risk for Labour. There was a non-trivial possibility of the LDs sweeping up Remainer votes in those circumstances and perhaps even starting to threaten Labour's position as the biggest non-Tory force in the country. That risk could not be run, hence Labour's pivot to Ref2.
    I agree with kinbalu here. I don't see any strategic position Labour ciuld have taken to Brexit which would have been better than the one they settled on.
    Mire broadly, it will remain an issue. How does the party keep on board both the cities and universities where its core vote is and the WWC seats it needs to win back? Putting Brexit in the past won't necessarily bring about a rapprochement between the two.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Endillion said:

    Just to clarify, are you disputing the existence of "Israeli-funded smears", or simply saying they were ineffective?

    I do not know. I haven't done the necessary legwork. Do you have any quality info on the matter?
  • "I don't see any strategic position Labour ciuld have taken to Brexit which would have been better than the one they settled on."

    Accepting the result of the 2016 referendum might have been a good start. Worked wonders for Boris
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184
    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    The question is, just how left wing is Starmer? Is he going to be Corbyn but without the IRA/antisemitism stuff?
    More Ed Miliband without the bacon sandwich
    Ed Miliband without the bacin sandwich is a winning formula, though. The bacon sandwich wasn't an issue in itself, but it encapsulated the issue of 'this dorky looking beta male doesn't look like a PM'. This doesn't apply to Starmer.

    There was alsi the shafting-his-brother issue, which did him no favours.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    What I heard from the voters I talked to was mounting angst and indecision. That Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are too far to the left. That Biden is too old. That Pete Buttigieg is too young. That Tom Steyer has too much money. I heard them yearn for a candidate who was just right, squarely in the middle, in the middle of the age range, and of the political spectrum, and of the country itself

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/01/14/amy-klobuchar-2020-campaign-profile-democrats-iowa-098476

    Indeed.
    "A woman can’t win? Alleged comment reopens feminist grievances against Bernie Sanders"
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/01/14/sanders-warren-debate/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    My current thinking on how I'll cast my ballot:

    1. #Sandy4Nandy
    2. Starmer
    3. Phillips
    4. RLB
    5. Thornberry
  • Test
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Two variables were different in 2019 from 2017 -

    Labours Brexit policy
    Boris was Tory leader

    And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!

    I doubt that Labour would have done better if they had stuck to their original policy of Soft Brexit, no Ref2. Risked a great deal worse if anything. Mass Remainer defection to the LDs. It was a forced change in stance. It was unsatisfactory but the best of the bad options available.

    So IMO the key factor was not Labour's Brexit policy. The main difference on Brexit compared to 2017 was that by Dec 2019 people were truly sick and tired of the impasse. They wanted it "done" and Johnson successfully positioned a Con majority as the way to ensure that. He framed and timed the GE perfectly. It was top top politics.
    I think the key factor was not policy, people or the campaigns. It was Labour and LDs agreeing to a General Election at that time.

    LDs agreed for party reasons based on the Euro results (as did the SNP). I think Labour were chickened into it plus hubris from Corbyn who thought he could pull the 2017 trick again. Johnson couldn't believe his luck. From then on it was nailed on (except for my model, sorry about that!).
    Agree 100% with that.

    Was about to rabbit on about where it then went wrong for the LDs, but then realised I was boring myself let alone anyone on here.
    I absolutely agree. Their decisions to agree to an early election were both nuts.
    It's a rare politician - or party - that doesn't hold an inflated view of their own popularity though.


  • What do you think PBers?

    Bailey fair price?

    I stared and stared at this one (and combi winner/second) a few days ago and I still don't know.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
  • More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    An insult to the people of Barking!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited January 2020
    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
    Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account is suspended so god knows where that quote has come from.
  • My current thinking on how I'll cast my ballot:

    1. #Sandy4Nandy
    2. Starmer
    3. Phillips
    4. RLB
    5. Thornberry

    The only one that has any cred as a PM is Starmer. Tories will be hoping for anyone but Starmer. They will be quite happy with Nandy, they would be delighted with RLB.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    I remember when people used to make a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. It wasn't even that long ago.

    I think whether there is a meaningful distinction depends to a large extent on how you define Zionism. Does it simply refer to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish haven state? Or does it mean its right to occupy all of the territory which it deems to be Jewish regardless of the rights of others?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    HYUFD said:

    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
    Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account is suspended so god knows where that quote has come from.
    It’s almost certainly fake news as Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account has been suspended for a month. It certainly is not a reaction to today’s events.
  • More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Sensible? Not something you could normally attribute to Mason, but in this case yes.
    SKS is ultra boring.

    SKS is ultra Remain

    SKS is ultra London Bubble

    Lab will never win under SKS the Ultra Boring Ultra Remain Ultra London Bubble Candidate
    Boring and sensible will look very appealing after a couple of years having a lying clown as PM. Starmer is the only one with the credibility to be PM. I hope he is successful. It is the only chance for UK politics to return to sanity.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:
    Good to see the Conservatives shitting all over the Smith Commission they signed off on.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    HYUFD said:

    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
    Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account is suspended so god knows where that quote has come from.
    It’s almost certainly fake news as Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account has been suspended for a month. It certainly is not a reaction to today’s events.
    Wings has been running an anti Sturgeon campaign for a while now. That tweet is almost certainly genuine but from a while ago.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    HYUFD said:

    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
    Wings over Scotland are so lucky to live in a country where 'Sturgeon must go' can be peacefully put into effect by simple votes.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    "I don't see any strategic position Labour ciuld have taken to Brexit which would have been better than the one they settled on."

    Accepting the result of the 2016 referendum might have been a good start. Worked wonders for Boris

    Yes but Boris wasn't targeting the Remainer vote. As Kinbalu says, that position would have lost votes to the Lib Dems. As was discussed before the election, far more identify with Remain or Leave than with the partys themselves. Labour were riding two horses into the election; they were always going to lose votes. Losing leave votes to the Brexit party was bad; losing remain votes to the Lib Dems could have been existential.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    Good to see the Conservatives shitting all over the Smith Commission they signed off on.
    The Scotland Bill 2016 gave Holyrood more powers as per Smith
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2020
    I see James O'Brien hasn't taken the GE result very well, stoking fears of mass public disorder to come on LBC today.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    My current thinking on how I'll cast my ballot:

    1. #Sandy4Nandy
    2. Starmer
    3. Phillips
    4. RLB
    5. Thornberry

    The only one that has any cred as a PM is Starmer. Tories will be hoping for anyone but Starmer. They will be quite happy with Nandy, they would be delighted with RLB.
    As a Tory 2019 voter Starmer is more credible than RLB. I certainly would be more likely to vote Labour under Nandy and couldnt see myself doing so under a dinner party London socialist like Starmer. I think Nandy is the only one that gets it with regards electoral defeat and unlike Starmer, Thornberry and RLB she did not play a significant part in the last couple of years of Labour being awful. That said I don't think Boris will be quaking in his boots about any of them and rightly so given his majority.

    The truth is there is such limited talent in Labour that even the best leadership candidate would struggle to put together a credible front bench that can reach beyond the Metropolitan areas and win back the voters they've lost since the Blair years.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    Sensible? Not something you could normally attribute to Mason, but in this case yes.

    Looking beyond the slightly naff persona - leather jacketed chick magnet on the streets of Paris in 68 - I find Mason to be eminently sensible on most things. I quite like him, actually, although I prefer Owen Jones.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
    Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account is suspended so god knows where that quote has come from.
    It’s almost certainly fake news as Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account has been suspended for a month. It certainly is not a reaction to today’s events.
    Far from it, Wings thinks Sturgeon's response today is useless, check their website

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/there-is-no-plan/
  • kinabalu said:

    I remember when people used to make a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. It wasn't even that long ago.

    I think whether there is a meaningful distinction depends to a large extent on how you define Zionism. Does it simply refer to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish haven state? Or does it mean its right to occupy all of the territory which it deems to be Jewish regardless of the rights of others?
    Meaningless semantics. Anti-Zionism means you don't want the state of Israel to exist (safe haven or otherwise).

    Also known as the Pro-Palestine position. Perfectly rational. It's only really right-wing nutjobs in America (all about the benjamins) who like Israel.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sanders is just a terrible candidate.

    In 2016 he did a sit down interview with a Spanish language American TV channel. He was a sled a basic question on South American politics and his obvious complete lack of knowledge was jaw dropping.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
    Wings over Scotland are so lucky to live in a country where 'Sturgeon must go' can be peacefully put into effect by simple votes.

    Unlike Zac Goldsmith must go
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Instead of rubbing Remainers noses in it why doesn’t this rancid government try and do something positive like throw a few crumbs to half the population to at least show the UK isn’t going to turn into an isolated rock .

    What we’ve seen so far seems to be a case of the UK shredding every connection with the EU . The despicable voting down of the amendment to continue with the Erasmus programme.

    Bozo and the rest of the excrement now inhabiting the cabinet seem intent on doing zip to heal the divisions.

  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Off Topic

    ***** Betting Post *****

    For those who fancy a modest winning single bet on this year's Oscars next month, instead of the usual ritual of losing money by attempting to cover every category, PBers could do worse than to back Sam Mendes' 1917 available at best odds of 11/4 (3.75), where yesterday's Times states "Bar a campaigning disaster between now and early February ... the award is almost guaranteed."

    Which category?
    Best picture. I tipped it this morning. It has a lot of fundamentals going for it and is a true cinematic experience rather than just an excellent film.
  • eek said:

    Off Topic

    ***** Betting Post *****

    For those who fancy a modest winning single bet on this year's Oscars next month, instead of the usual ritual of losing money by attempting to cover every category, PBers could do worse than to back Sam Mendes' 1917 available at best odds of 11/4 (3.75), where yesterday's Times states "Bar a campaigning disaster between now and early February ... the award is almost guaranteed."

    Which category?
    Best Movie. It's almost written to tick every box that award requires.
    I've have £20 on it for an interest.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    kinabalu said:

    I remember when people used to make a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. It wasn't even that long ago.

    I think whether there is a meaningful distinction depends to a large extent on how you define Zionism. Does it simply refer to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish haven state? Or does it mean its right to occupy all of the territory which it deems to be Jewish regardless of the rights of others?
    Meaningless semantics. Anti-Zionism means you don't want the state of Israel to exist (safe haven or otherwise).

    Also known as the Pro-Palestine position. Perfectly rational. It's only really right-wing nutjobs in America (all about the benjamins) who like Israel.
    No, anti-Zionism means you don't want Israel to claim all the lands as laid out in the biblical texts as Israel. Not that you don't want the current state of Israel to exist.

    You can be pro-Israel while being and anti-Zionist.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2020
    nico67 said:

    Instead of rubbing Remainers noses in it why doesn’t this rancid government try and do something positive like throw a few crumbs to half the population to at least show the UK isn’t going to turn into an isolated rock .

    What we’ve seen so far seems to be a case of the UK shredding every connection with the EU . The despicable voting down of the amendment to continue with the Erasmus programme.

    Bozo and the rest of the excrement now inhabiting the cabinet seem intent on doing zip to heal the divisions.

    You obviously missed all the cooperation over positioning on how to respond to Iranian crisis.
  • Off Topic

    ***** Betting Post *****

    For those who fancy a modest winning single bet on this year's Oscars next month, instead of the usual ritual of losing money by attempting to cover every category, PBers could do worse than to back Sam Mendes' 1917 available at best odds of 11/4 (3.75), where yesterday's Times states "Bar a campaigning disaster between now and early February ... the award is almost guaranteed."

    Which category?
    Sorry ... that's for Best Picture.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Sensible? Not something you could normally attribute to Mason, but in this case yes.
    SKS is ultra boring.

    SKS is ultra Remain

    SKS is ultra London Bubble

    Lab will never win under SKS the Ultra Boring Ultra Remain Ultra London Bubble Candidate
    Boring and sensible will look very appealing after a couple of years having a lying clown as PM. Starmer is the only one with the credibility to be PM. I hope he is successful. It is the only chance for UK politics to return to sanity.
    A “lying clown” who has outsmarted you at every turn. What does that say about you?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    edited January 2020

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    This tells me that Keir isnt actually that sensible if hes attracting Paul Mason. Just Corbyn lite with less charisma but more intelligence.
  • Alistair said:

    kinabalu said:

    I remember when people used to make a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. It wasn't even that long ago.

    I think whether there is a meaningful distinction depends to a large extent on how you define Zionism. Does it simply refer to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish haven state? Or does it mean its right to occupy all of the territory which it deems to be Jewish regardless of the rights of others?
    Meaningless semantics. Anti-Zionism means you don't want the state of Israel to exist (safe haven or otherwise).

    Also known as the Pro-Palestine position. Perfectly rational. It's only really right-wing nutjobs in America (all about the benjamins) who like Israel.
    No, anti-Zionism means you don't want Israel to claim all the lands as laid out in the biblical texts as Israel. Not that you don't want the current state of Israel to exist.

    You can be pro-Israel while being and anti-Zionist.
    You're playing semantics with the word Zionism.

    Be soft on Israel all you want - but it's only right-wing nutjobs in America that are actually that keen on them
  • Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    The question is, just how left wing is Starmer? Is he going to be Corbyn but without the IRA/antisemitism stuff?
    More Ed Miliband without the bacon sandwich
    Ed Miliband without the bacin sandwich is a winning formula, though. The bacon sandwich wasn't an issue in itself, but it encapsulated the issue of 'this dorky looking beta male doesn't look like a PM'. This doesn't apply to Starmer.

    There was alsi the shafting-his-brother issue, which did him no favours.
    Ed Miliband shafted his brother. Another example of CCHQ's campaigning ruthlessness compared with Labour who, sfaict, made no mischief with Jo Johnson being torn between family loyalty and the national interest.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    Instead of rubbing Remainers noses in it why doesn’t this rancid government try and do something positive like throw a few crumbs to half the population to at least show the UK isn’t going to turn into an isolated rock .

    What we’ve seen so far seems to be a case of the UK shredding every connection with the EU . The despicable voting down of the amendment to continue with the Erasmus programme.

    Bozo and the rest of the excrement now inhabiting the cabinet seem intent on doing zip to heal the divisions.

    You obviously missed all the cooperation over positioning on how to respond to Iranian crisis.
    You mean like Bozo now arse licking Trump. So much for taking back control. The UK is just going to follow the lunatic in the WH in its desperation to get a trade deal .
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Alistair said:

    Sanders is just a terrible candidate.

    In 2016 he did a sit down interview with a Spanish language American TV channel. He was a sled a basic question on South American politics and his obvious complete lack of knowledge was jaw dropping.

    But will surely beat the supernaturally ignorant Trump in that department?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2020
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Instead of rubbing Remainers noses in it why doesn’t this rancid government try and do something positive like throw a few crumbs to half the population to at least show the UK isn’t going to turn into an isolated rock .

    What we’ve seen so far seems to be a case of the UK shredding every connection with the EU . The despicable voting down of the amendment to continue with the Erasmus programme.

    Bozo and the rest of the excrement now inhabiting the cabinet seem intent on doing zip to heal the divisions.

    You obviously missed all the cooperation over positioning on how to respond to Iranian crisis.
    You mean like Bozo now arse licking Trump. So much for taking back control. The UK is just going to follow the lunatic in the WH in its desperation to get a trade deal .
    What are you prattling on about. The UK, France and Germany came up with a joint coordinated position which told Donald and Iran to calm it down, to deescalate the situation. If they actually took any notice is a different matter, but the UK and its European partners definitely worked together to come up with a consistent response.

    Now they are doing the same over the future of the nuclear deal.

    e.g France, Germany and U.K. Serve Notice on Iran Under Nuclear Deal

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/world/europe/iran-nuclear-deal.html
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    If Paul Mason is a "more sensible lefty", Labour is in big trouble.

    Pause

    More than it is already, that is... :(
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    The question is, just how left wing is Starmer? Is he going to be Corbyn but without the IRA/antisemitism stuff?
    More Ed Miliband without the bacon sandwich
    Ed Miliband without the bacin sandwich is a winning formula, though. The bacon sandwich wasn't an issue in itself, but it encapsulated the issue of 'this dorky looking beta male doesn't look like a PM'. This doesn't apply to Starmer.

    There was alsi the shafting-his-brother issue, which did him no favours.
    Starmer looks like a PM but in common with Ed Miliband he doesn't sound much like one. John Major didnt sound like a PM either but then Neil Kinnock did even less so. I wonder if Starmer can get some vocal lessons like Thatcher did.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    Meaningless semantics. Anti-Zionism means you don't want the state of Israel to exist (safe haven or otherwise).

    Also known as the Pro-Palestine position. Perfectly rational. It's only really right-wing nutjobs in America (all about the benjamins) who like Israel.

    So, are you anti-Zionist even on that very narrow definition? You don't think Israel has the right to exist at all out there?
  • kinabalu said:

    Meaningless semantics. Anti-Zionism means you don't want the state of Israel to exist (safe haven or otherwise).

    Also known as the Pro-Palestine position. Perfectly rational. It's only really right-wing nutjobs in America (all about the benjamins) who like Israel.

    So, are you anti-Zionist even on that very narrow definition? You don't think Israel has the right to exist at all out there?
    Correct - I am Pro-Palestine
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    nico67 said:

    Instead of rubbing Remainers noses in it why doesn’t this rancid government try and do something positive like throw a few crumbs to half the population to at least show the UK isn’t going to turn into an isolated rock .
    What we’ve seen so far seems to be a case of the UK shredding every connection with the EU. The despicable voting down of the amendment to continue with the Erasmus programme.

    Bozo and the rest of the excrement now inhabiting the cabinet seem intent on doing zip to heal the divisions.

    Jesus, the voting down of the Erasmus amendment was so that the UK Government wouldn't have been compelled to make it a priority in negotiations, not banning us from being in it. Your lack of knowledge in this area reflects poorly on your other (already pretty poor) points.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Are rightwingers now being triggered by Star Trek?

    FFS. Don’t watch it if you don’t like it.

    I love star trek, and it can preach if it wants- they just dont need to spoil in advance what they will preach about!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    They dont hang about in campaigning, which is good. Counting votes though ..
  • Brom said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    The question is, just how left wing is Starmer? Is he going to be Corbyn but without the IRA/antisemitism stuff?
    More Ed Miliband without the bacon sandwich
    Ed Miliband without the bacin sandwich is a winning formula, though. The bacon sandwich wasn't an issue in itself, but it encapsulated the issue of 'this dorky looking beta male doesn't look like a PM'. This doesn't apply to Starmer.

    There was alsi the shafting-his-brother issue, which did him no favours.
    Starmer looks like a PM but in common with Ed Miliband he doesn't sound much like one. John Major didnt sound like a PM either but then Neil Kinnock did even less so. I wonder if Starmer can get some vocal lessons like Thatcher did.
    My theory of Kinnock's downfall (where is Roger when we need him?) is it is the way he was filmed. Kinnock did a lot of public speaking and would move his head around a lot. Unfortunately when filmed in tight close-up, it made him look like a madman as his head bobbed around voters' tellies.

    Trivia quiz: who was the 1980s American politician whose run for presidency imploded when he was shown to be plagiarising Neil Kinnock?
  • Off Topic

    ***** Betting Post *****

    For those who fancy a modest winning single bet on this year's Oscars next month, instead of the usual ritual of losing money by attempting to cover every category, PBers could do worse than to back Sam Mendes' 1917 available at best odds of 11/4 (3.75), where yesterday's Times states "Bar a campaigning disaster between now and early February ... the award is almost guaranteed."

    Which category?
    Sorry ... that's for Best Picture.
    Yes, I don't think there is a best film category.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited January 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is pro independence blog Wings Over Scotland calling for Sturgeon to go that is significant not the retweeter, signs the nationalist side is heading for civil war on how to respond to Boris while he calmly moves on and leaves them to it having rejected indyref2
    Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account is suspended so god knows where that quote has come from.
    It’s almost certainly fake news as Wings Over Scotland’s Twitter account has been suspended for a month. It certainly is not a reaction to today’s events.
    Far from it, Wings thinks Sturgeon's response today is useless, check their website

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/there-is-no-plan/
    Can you put up a link to Wings over Scotland's twitter account just so I can be sure that you haven't descended to posting fake tweets?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    edited January 2020
    matt said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Sensible? Not something you could normally attribute to Mason, but in this case yes.
    SKS is ultra boring.

    SKS is ultra Remain

    SKS is ultra London Bubble

    Lab will never win under SKS the Ultra Boring Ultra Remain Ultra London Bubble Candidate
    Boring and sensible will look very appealing after a couple of years having a lying clown as PM. Starmer is the only one with the credibility to be PM. I hope he is successful. It is the only chance for UK politics to return to sanity.
    A “lying clown” who has outsmarted you at every turn. What does that say about you?
    Do you mean Nigel or Starmer. Bit rough on Nigel if you mean him. I suspect there was not a lot Nigel could have done about Boris, much as he may have wanted to.

    If he is a lying clown (Boris not Nigel/Starmer, and I am not saying he is one way or another!) it is also not them that are being outsmarted really, it is the gullible who voted for him. But clearly this works as I give you Trump the master of the lying clown profession.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Cookie said:

    I agree with kinbalu here. I don't see any strategic position Labour ciuld have taken to Brexit which would have been better than the one they settled on.
    Mire broadly, it will remain an issue. How does the party keep on board both the cities and universities where its core vote is and the WWC seats it needs to win back? Putting Brexit in the past won't necessarily bring about a rapprochement between the two.

    Yes - how to win back the defecting WWC voters in the old heartlands without alienating the new London and Metropolitan base? I'm sure it's possible but I'm glad the task is falling to Starmer or Nandy rather than me. My sense FWIW is that it would be a mistake to chase the Boris/Brexit defectors too hard.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    Byronic said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
    It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.

    It is clearly quite effective
    The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
    I seem to be banging on about this today because it's cropped up more than once, so I'll be brief. Politics is not just about the greater good or making people happier or richer, it's about making sure the right people get hurt. For some Leavers (not all, and not even most) the point is not to win, it's to enable the hurting of the right people. The same can be said of some Remainers.

    So don't expect much in the way of behaviour changes. Bad people remain (pun!) bad people and do bad things. It's a people thing, not a Brexit thing. This is why I like things like small government.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    More sensible Labour lefties seem to be coming around to Keir.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857

    Paul Mason sensible??? He is absolutely barking.
    The question is, just how left wing is Starmer? Is he going to be Corbyn but without the IRA/antisemitism stuff?
    More Ed Miliband without the bacon sandwich
    Ed Miliband without the bacin sandwich is a winning formula, though. The bacon sandwich wasn't an issue in itself, but it encapsulated the issue of 'this dorky looking beta male doesn't look like a PM'. This doesn't apply to Starmer.

    There was alsi the shafting-his-brother issue, which did him no favours.
    Ed Miliband shafted his brother. Another example of CCHQ's campaigning ruthlessness compared with Labour who, sfaict, made no mischief with Jo Johnson being torn between family loyalty and the national interest.
    No, EdM shafting his brother was high profile and obvious long before CCHQ did anything with it. Many people were incredulous at the time - to people with siblings*, tge idea you could decide to stand against your brother for a job was inceedible.

    *No personal experience of this being an only child - but my wife found it absolutely unforgiveable.
This discussion has been closed.