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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Johnson/Cummings propose moving the House of Lords to York

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited January 19 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Johnson/Cummings propose moving the House of Lords to York

Johnson plans to move House of Lords to York – Sunday Times https://t.co/vJRqP277zU pic.twitter.com/JsIO78cNmE

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Comments

  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 225
    " it could work"

    So could a Garden Bridge, a Thames Estuary intercontinental airport or a bridge from Scotland to Ireland. So could Brexit, or a high speed railway from London to Scotland or yet another runway in the world's most absurdly (and dangerously) mislocated major-city airport.

    All, though, involve huge costs, dubious benefits and the diversion of central strategic thinking from what's necessary to a token gesture that won't show any payback for thirty years
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 943
    Perhaps we could move the Labour Party to Wales.. even that's a bit dodgy these days.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    I keep telling people Cummings is an arrogant dingbat with the intellect of a stuffed donkey who does not and never has had even a smidgeon of a clue.

    Given his increasingly peculiar will they finally now believe me?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    ‘The Anglican church has managed to operate with twin centres of governance for centuries so why who not the UK parliament.’

    The Anglican Church does not have twin centres of government. It has one province based in Canterbury (well, in practice London) and a separate province based in York.

    I would be fully in favour of the whole government moving to York. That would be a good idea. But this is just Cummings demonstrating as he has for ten years that he is more useless than Putin’s integrity meter.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 13,228
    Why York? It is a revealing choice of venue. York is a lovely historic University town with excellent road and rail links, but how would shifting the Lords or even the entirety of government there shift the mindset of its members?

    Shift it to Hartlepool, Stoke or Wrexham if you really want to discomfort the comfortable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    Foxy said:

    Why York? It is a revealing choice of venue. York is a lovely historic University town with excellent road and rail links, but how would shifting the Lords or even the entirety of government there shift the mindset of its members?

    Shift it to Hartlepool, Stoke or Wrexham if you really want to discomfort the comfortable.

    It is of course almost exactly halfway between London and Edinburgh.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    Excellent idea! And have Committees meet in Liverpool - then the noble Lords might enquire why it can take as long to get there by train as it can to Edinburgh - despite that latter being 60% further away....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    FPT on dissolution honours - Corbyn has a little list, with an alleged bully, a nonce-finder and a cover-upper of anti-semitism on it:

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470
    Sounds expensive.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 4,406
    Revise, reduce and relocate in that order anything else is gallery playing
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Why York? It is a revealing choice of venue. York is a lovely historic University town with excellent road and rail links, but how would shifting the Lords or even the entirety of government there shift the mindset of its members?

    Shift it to Hartlepool, Stoke or Wrexham if you really want to discomfort the comfortable.

    It is of course almost exactly halfway between London and Edinburgh.
    But it takes half an hour longer to get to Edinburgh.....despite it being a bit further away....but at least it should get them using the train....unless they want to trek to Leeds-Bradford....
  • Jonathan said:

    Sounds expensive.

    That depends whether this is a project for doing or for talking about.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 13,228
    This proposal is just Johnson and Cummings trying to distract and confuse one of the few remaining restraints on their autocratic executive power.

    Personally, I would get rid of the Lords itself and replace with a Constitutional Court.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 28,729
    I think we have better things to spend money on right now tbh but getting more government out of London and more of the government spend up north is clearly a good idea.

    Why is the Supreme Court in London, for example?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389

    Jonathan said:

    Sounds expensive.

    That depends whether this is a project for doing or for talking about.
    If Cummings has an idea, he tries to implement it. It doesn’t matter if it’s a stupid, expensive or plain wrong idea, or if his original intention is subverted by the very many cleverer things around him, including the moss in the gutter, he will try to do it. Then it will be a complete disaster and he will blame someone else, because in addition to being thick and a liar he’s also a coward.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Excellent idea. Do it. York is a good choice

    Incidentally, in the middle of the Brexit horror show, won't someone think of UK universities? They are doomed to decline as foreign students shun the hostile atmos...

    Oh.

    "Number of international students at UK universities jumps

    Chinese students help fuel surge in non-European foreigners starting courses"

    https://www.ft.com/content/8f025b0e-3872-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    DavidL said:

    I think we have better things to spend money on right now tbh but getting more government out of London and more of the government spend up north is clearly a good idea.

    Why is the Supreme Court in London, for example?

    Why is there a Supreme Court at all? Why was it separated from the House of Lords? It serves no useful or essential purpose.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 28,729
    Well, if anyone had any doubts about the wisdom of the idea that nails it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    Adonis, Long Bailey and Cummings are for it.

    What more evidence do we need this is a bad idea?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    edited January 19
    DavidL said:

    Well, if anyone had any doubts about the wisdom of the idea that nails it.
    Stopped clock.....(Adonis, not you!)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 28,729
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I think we have better things to spend money on right now tbh but getting more government out of London and more of the government spend up north is clearly a good idea.

    Why is the Supreme Court in London, for example?

    Why is there a Supreme Court at all? Why was it separated from the House of Lords? It serves no useful or essential purpose.
    I think separating it from the House of Lords was a good thing. I also think that it facilitated its evolution into a Constitutional Court which I also think is a good thing even although I have reservations about Judges playing politics. But once that link to the Lords was broken the need for it to be in London disappeared. As it happens the new President of the Court lives in Edinburgh.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470
    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 9,984
    York will be to London as Strasbourg is to Brussels? Tories kept telling us about the success of that arrangement.

    The House of Lords being identified for the move reflects, I suspect, Johnson's (or Cummings') level of respect for that institution.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    The other upside is the noble Lords would have to contend with journalists from the Yorkshire Post - who could teach some of their London colleagues a thing or two about holding politicians to account....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 28,729
    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    All politicians from all parties love to play constitutional games rather than getting on with the hard work. Scottish politicians have done nothing else for more than 30 years which explains some of the chronic problems in our public services.

    Brexit seems to be winding down as a diversion and some new games need to be found. Otherwise they would have nothing to do but the tedium of transport links, education and the health service which would be unspeakably boring.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 28,729

    DavidL said:

    Well, if anyone had any doubts about the wisdom of the idea that nails it.
    Stopped clock.....(Adonis, not you!)
    Adonis is, at best, a digital clock. Right only once a day.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    FF43 said:

    York will be to London as Strasbourg is to Brussels?

    No - that would be the HoC shuttling between London & York - this is sending the HoL permanently to York.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 52,498
    This is a pointless diversion.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,907
    edited January 19
    The great thing about this is that it would really piss off Leeds - the biggest city in Yorkshire which doesn't feel it gets the respect it deserves.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389

    FF43 said:

    York will be to London as Strasbourg is to Brussels?

    No - that would be the HoC shuttling between London & York - this is sending the HoL permanently to York.
    I’ve got it. I’ve found the perfect place for government. All of them. It’s in the north, it’s undeveloped, and it would mean they could just talk to each other and not have to bother with us, or bother us.

    We should move the Lords, the Commons and the Civil Service to Rockall.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    As the Queen has demonstrated today - with commendable ruthlessness.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389

    The great thing about this is that it would really piss off Leeds.

    But that’s hardly the Don thing.

    Couldn’t resist...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    Adonis 13 years ago on moving the HoL outside London - covers some of the "practicalities" (not big issues in terms of conducting business):

  • York is magnificent.

    It has an awesome hotel in shape of The Grand, had a few enjoyable weekend breaks there.

    That said the House of Lords in session on the same time as race day and York might get a little cramped.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 9,984
    edited January 19
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sounds expensive.

    That depends whether this is a project for doing or for talking about.
    If Cummings has an idea, he tries to implement it. It doesn’t matter if it’s a stupid, expensive or plain wrong idea, or if his original intention is subverted by the very many cleverer things around him, including the moss in the gutter, he will try to do it. Then it will be a complete disaster and he will blame someone else, because in addition to being thick and a liar he’s also a coward.
    I agree with most of this, but think Cummings is more malign and crafty, and less stupid than I believe you do. He gets most of what he wants.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470
    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    Expensive, pointless and irrelevant. Symbolism for the Boris administration?
  • The great thing about this is that it would really piss off Leeds - the biggest city in Yorkshire which doesn't feel it gets the respect it deserves.

    Please, it is Dirty Leeds, and I speak with the authority of someone who worked in Leeds for six years.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 1,262
    edited January 19
    OT has the physicist-obsessed Dominic Cummings taken a second job as Megxit editor of the Daily Telegraph which breathlessly reports that the Daily Mail's barrister has a degree in that subject?
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/19/meghan-faces-court-showdown-barrister-got-cambridge-first-theoretical/
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 7,861
    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    Yes, we're getting this and new 50p coins to distract from the 3% loss in GDP.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,358

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    As the Queen has demonstrated today - with commendable ruthlessness.
    Notable that Harry and Meghan aren't HRH any more, while Andrew is.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 9,760
    Nice idea. Don't fully see the point/benefit. You're gifting the recipient town a few jobs, some building work, restaurant business. All good but does York need that? Also seems like you're increasing costs more then just moving them - their Lordships already have offices and a chamber in the Palace of Westminster.

    It only makes sense to me if they have plans for the second chamber. For example, making the Commons into an English Parli and the Lords into the UK Parli. Which if that is planned, seems like that should be the thing that goes elsewhere. Perhaps that's it. Build it for the Lords, then use it for something else longer term.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,900
    edited January 19
    I wouldn't say York's transport links are good. Yes you have east coast mainline trains to London but it takes 30 minutes to hit a motorway A1(M) (on a single carriageway most of the way) and it doesn't have an airport.

    The next station up north has all 3 options (planes, trains and automobiles) and isn't in Yorkshire at all which will allow everyone to retain their chips on their shoulders
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Nice idea. Don't fully see the point/benefit. You're gifting the recipient town a few jobs, some building work, restaurant business. All good but does York need that? Also seems like you're increasing costs more then just moving them - their Lordships already have offices and a chamber in the Palace of Westminster.

    It only makes sense to me if they have plans for the second chamber. For example, making the Commons into an English Parli and the Lords into the UK Parli. Which if that is planned, seems like that should be the thing that goes elsewhere. Perhaps that's it. Build it for the Lords, then use it for something else longer term.

    According to the Times report, that is indeed the wider plan, or at least it is mooted.

    The new Yorkie Lords will become a Senate for the regions and nations
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    One infrastructure priority should be to complete electrification of the Midland Main Line - and preferably all other railways too.

    I can’t be bothered to explain why, but I think this video does it very eloquently:

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,358
    eek said:

    I wouldn't say York's transport links are good. Yes you have east coast mainline trains to London but it takes 30 minutes to hit a motorway A1(M) (on a single carriageway most of the way) and it doesn't have an airport.

    Not easy to get to Wales. Or N Ireland. Although from a UK perspective, the latter might not matter soon!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sounds expensive.

    That depends whether this is a project for doing or for talking about.
    If Cummings has an idea, he tries to implement it. It doesn’t matter if it’s a stupid, expensive or plain wrong idea, or if his original intention is subverted by the very many cleverer things around him, including the moss in the gutter, he will try to do it. Then it will be a complete disaster and he will blame someone else, because in addition to being thick and a liar he’s also a coward.
    I agree with most of this, but think Cummings is more malign and crafty, and less stupid than I believe you do. He gets most of what he wants.
    No he doesn’t. He just thinks he does.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    As the Queen has demonstrated today - with commendable ruthlessness.
    Notable that Harry and Meghan aren't HRH any more, while Andrew is.
    Technically they are still HRH, just they won't use the titles.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    eek said:

    I wouldn't say York's transport links are good. Yes you have east coast mainline trains to London but it takes 30 minutes to hit a motorway A1(M) (on a single carriageway most of the way) and it doesn't have an airport.

    Leeds airport is 30 miles and 45 minutes away from York. About the same as Gatwick/Luton to London, and nearer than Stansted,
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    eek said:

    I wouldn't say York's transport links are good. Yes you have east coast mainline trains to London but it takes 30 minutes to hit a motorway A1(M) (on a single carriageway most of the way) and it doesn't have an airport.

    Carbon footprint & "flygskam"......
  • ydoethur said:

    One infrastructure priority should be to complete electrification of the Midland Main Line - and preferably all other railways too.

    I can’t be bothered to explain why, but I think this video does it very eloquently:

    With electrification comes driver only control of trains. The unions have been successful in blocking this elsewhere.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 652

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    As the Queen has demonstrated today - with commendable ruthlessness.
    Depriving two irrelevant people of a three letter acronym looks to me like a paradigm case of pointlessness.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,900
    Byronic said:

    Excellent idea. Do it. York is a good choice

    Incidentally, in the middle of the Brexit horror show, won't someone think of UK universities? They are doomed to decline as foreign students shun the hostile atmos...

    Oh.

    "Number of international students at UK universities jumps

    Chinese students help fuel surge in non-European foreigners starting courses"

    https://www.ft.com/content/8f025b0e-3872-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4

    Universities had 3 years to prepare for something that only has a 12-18 month sales cycle (I did some pre-sales to universities over the past 18 months and the sales cycle is easy to work out. With UCAS forms for September 2020 admissions done things now turn to September 2021.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389

    ydoethur said:

    One infrastructure priority should be to complete electrification of the Midland Main Line - and preferably all other railways too.

    I can’t be bothered to explain why, but I think this video does it very eloquently:

    With electrification comes driver only control of trains. The unions have been successful in blocking this elsewhere.
    So it would also break the power of the railway unions.

    What’s not to like?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055
    edited January 19


    I thought this a silly idea before and still do. Speculation about future plans for an English parliament and so on might never happen. So It mostly seems like everyone is in a game of one upmanship proving how not London focused the are. The benefits just look pretty shaky to me.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 652

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    As the Queen has demonstrated today - with commendable ruthlessness.
    Notable that Harry and Meghan aren't HRH any more, while Andrew is.
    Technically they are still HRH, just they won't use the titles.
    Thank you for making my point for me.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 217
    If the land is where I think it is then it's a relatively run down part of York, next to quite a working class area (I used to live in a new development nearby). Nice people, could be a candidate for bishy Road style regeneration. Presumably that would happen if the parliament arrived but there are also options of access to the site - routes in and out could be chosen to point towards the city centre.

    Even more tourists for York if so, you already can't move in the summer!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 9,984
    edited January 19
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sounds expensive.

    That depends whether this is a project for doing or for talking about.
    If Cummings has an idea, he tries to implement it. It doesn’t matter if it’s a stupid, expensive or plain wrong idea, or if his original intention is subverted by the very many cleverer things around him, including the moss in the gutter, he will try to do it. Then it will be a complete disaster and he will blame someone else, because in addition to being thick and a liar he’s also a coward.
    I agree with most of this, but think Cummings is more malign and crafty, and less stupid than I believe you do. He gets most of what he wants.
    No he doesn’t. He just thinks he does.
    We think what Cummings does is stupid, expensive and plain wrong idea, but he doesn't. The key thing though once the bridges and boats are burnt there's no going back. Have Cummings' education "reforms" been reversed? His measure of success is in that.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,900
    edited January 19
    Byronic said:

    eek said:

    I wouldn't say York's transport links are good. Yes you have east coast mainline trains to London but it takes 30 minutes to hit a motorway A1(M) (on a single carriageway most of the way) and it doesn't have an airport.

    Leeds airport is 30 miles and 45 minutes away from York. About the same as Gatwick/Luton to London, and nearer than Stansted,
    10 minutes from my house and small enough currently that I can roll in 30 minutes before departure time and catch the flight. Granted I can only go to Schiphol but we discovered I could usually get to most places in Europe in less time than anyone else based in the UK.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,900

    eek said:

    I wouldn't say York's transport links are good. Yes you have east coast mainline trains to London but it takes 30 minutes to hit a motorway A1(M) (on a single carriageway most of the way) and it doesn't have an airport.

    Not easy to get to Wales. Or N Ireland. Although from a UK perspective, the latter might not matter soon!
    Yep South wales would be a problem, but that's equally true from anywhere North of Birmingham.

    Plus easy access to Wales = difficult access to Scotland, it's swings and roundabouts.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,907

    ydoethur said:

    One infrastructure priority should be to complete electrification of the Midland Main Line - and preferably all other railways too.

    I can’t be bothered to explain why, but I think this video does it very eloquently:

    With electrification comes driver only control of trains. The unions have been successful in blocking this elsewhere.
    Except on Thameslink which which has been driver only since 1987 without any negative consequences.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055
    edited January 19
    DavidL said:

    I think we have better things to spend money on right now tbh but getting more government out of London and more of the government spend up north is clearly a good idea.

    Why is the Supreme Court in London, for example?

    Why wouldnt it be? You say clearly moving things out is a good idea - why? It isn't clear to me at all.

    I must be the only non londoner who doesnt have a problem with major national institutions being centred in our capital and largest city.

    Government departments? Sure. But parliament? The supposed benefits look iffy, and definitely so if it's only half.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 652
    I assume this is going to require an Act of Parliament? Which would require stuffing the HoL with Yorkies, on the basis that turkeys don't vote for disruptive relocation at any time of the year?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 25,389
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sounds expensive.

    That depends whether this is a project for doing or for talking about.
    If Cummings has an idea, he tries to implement it. It doesn’t matter if it’s a stupid, expensive or plain wrong idea, or if his original intention is subverted by the very many cleverer things around him, including the moss in the gutter, he will try to do it. Then it will be a complete disaster and he will blame someone else, because in addition to being thick and a liar he’s also a coward.
    I agree with most of this, but think Cummings is more malign and crafty, and less stupid than I believe you do. He gets most of what he wants.
    No he doesn’t. He just thinks he does.
    We think what Cummings does is stupid, expensive and plain wrong idea, but he doesn't. The key thing though once the bridges and boats are burnt there's no going back. Have Cummings' education "reforms" been reversed? His measure of success is in that.
    But they aren’t ‘his’ reforms. What he intended and what has happened are very different. About the only thing that was genuinely his by the finish was the way he buggered up the marking criteria. Everything else was virtually a wish list of the DfE and OFQUAL.

    Have a good morning.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    As the Queen has demonstrated today - with commendable ruthlessness.
    Notable that Harry and Meghan aren't HRH any more, while Andrew is.
    They have asked to step away while he is being held back, that's the difference. They're not being punished they are getting what they want with some additional consequences on top. Hes not being punished either just keeping his head down, as hes not yet officially guilty of anything.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 9,984
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sounds expensive.

    That depends whether this is a project for doing or for talking about.
    If Cummings has an idea, he tries to implement it. It doesn’t matter if it’s a stupid, expensive or plain wrong idea, or if his original intention is subverted by the very many cleverer things around him, including the moss in the gutter, he will try to do it. Then it will be a complete disaster and he will blame someone else, because in addition to being thick and a liar he’s also a coward.
    I agree with most of this, but think Cummings is more malign and crafty, and less stupid than I believe you do. He gets most of what he wants.
    No he doesn’t. He just thinks he does.
    We think what Cummings does is stupid, expensive and plain wrong idea, but he doesn't. The key thing though once the bridges and boats are burnt there's no going back. Have Cummings' education "reforms" been reversed? His measure of success is in that.
    Thinking about it, the greatest example of a "stupid, expensive and plain wrong idea" that won't be reversed is Brexit. Maybe Cummings greatest "success" ?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited January 19
    eek said:

    Byronic said:

    Excellent idea. Do it. York is a good choice

    Incidentally, in the middle of the Brexit horror show, won't someone think of UK universities? They are doomed to decline as foreign students shun the hostile atmos...

    Oh.

    "Number of international students at UK universities jumps

    Chinese students help fuel surge in non-European foreigners starting courses"

    https://www.ft.com/content/8f025b0e-3872-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4

    Universities had 3 years to prepare for something that only has a 12-18 month sales cycle (I did some pre-sales to universities over the past 18 months and the sales cycle is easy to work out. With UCAS forms for September 2020 admissions done things now turn to September 2021.
    But... but.... but... we were explicitly told the racist and hostile attitude, expressed by Brexit, would put off all the foreign students?!

    "Brexit would put one in five international students off studying in UK, study finds"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-international-students-uk-universities-a8862081.html

    As it turns out, that was total bollocks. EU students will simply be replaced by non-EU students. China especially. And Chinese students work hard and have lots of money, and extend British soft power to China, the new global hegemon. So it's win-win.

    The same process will, I think, apply to many of the areas cited by Project Fear. eg. EU academic staff. Sure, some will go home, but others will come from further afield.

    Brexit is a pivot away from Europe, and out towards the wider world, just as Brexiteers predicted.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 652
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think we have better things to spend money on right now tbh but getting more government out of London and more of the government spend up north is clearly a good idea.

    Why is the Supreme Court in London, for example?

    Why wouldnt it be? You say clearly moving things out is a good idea - why? It isn't clear to me at all.

    I must be the only non londoner who doesnt have a problem with major national institutions being centred in our capital and largest city.

    Government departments? Sure. But parliament? The supposed benefits look iffy, and definitely so if it's only half.
    Quite so. Joined up government sounds better to me than wilfully disjointed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 31,883
    For balance, the second half of this story is that the House of Commons is moving to Lancaster......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055
    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Britain is disappearing up its own backside. The burning issue of the day is not the location of the Lords. Why does anyone want to waste time thinking about this? Some kind of displacement activity?

    What do you mean, ‘disappearing?’ This is a country that spent seven years discussing whether to ban fox hunting while the benefits system was completely buggered up and the PM invaded three foreign countries.
    The location of the Lords is a new low in pointlessness.
    Symbolism is not pointless. At all.
    No it isn't. But this attempt at it is pretty much is. I'm not at all convinced that the problem the move is supposed to fix is much helped by the move. It's a flashy distraction.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,004
    Why the north of England? Why not Scotland or Wales?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055
    edited January 19
    It sounds like an idea designed to be dropped so they can say to the lords they did them a favour.

    And what of the restoration of the palace? If they're not going to need the Lords what's the plan, turn the chamber into office space? It could be the PMs private meeting room. Leave the thrones in, he can sit there.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055

    Why the north of England? Why not Scotland or Wales?

    Whether or not Scotland is out of the UK by the time it would be built, the threat of it splitting off might be too high to put the UK chamber there.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470
    The state opening of parliament is going to be a nightmare for HM. I am not sure the Gold State Coach can stand up to the potholes on the A1. They will have to divert via the Starbucks drive thru at South Mimms.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 12,500
    Nadia Whittome doesn't say much for Labour's selection of candidates in safe seats.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 31,883
    Of course, with a much changed House of Lords aimed more at being a federal arm of government for the four countries of the UK, it makes more sense.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470

    For balance, the second half of this story is that the House of Commons is moving to Lancaster......

    The government benches are moving to Lancaster, the opposition benches to York.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 652

    Why the north of England? Why not Scotland or Wales?

    Might have to move again, at least from Scotland, probably after hearing quite a lot from malcolmg about white settlers.
  • Byronic said:

    eek said:

    Byronic said:

    Excellent idea. Do it. York is a good choice

    Incidentally, in the middle of the Brexit horror show, won't someone think of UK universities? They are doomed to decline as foreign students shun the hostile atmos...

    Oh.

    "Number of international students at UK universities jumps

    Chinese students help fuel surge in non-European foreigners starting courses"

    https://www.ft.com/content/8f025b0e-3872-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4

    Universities had 3 years to prepare for something that only has a 12-18 month sales cycle (I did some pre-sales to universities over the past 18 months and the sales cycle is easy to work out. With UCAS forms for September 2020 admissions done things now turn to September 2021.
    But... but.... but... we were explicitly told the racist and hostile attitude, expressed by Brexit, would put off all the foreign students?!

    "Brexit would put one in five international students off studying in UK, study finds"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-international-students-uk-universities-a8862081.html

    As it turns out, that was total bollocks. EU students will simply be replaced by non-EU students. China especially. And Chinese students work hard and have lots of money, and extend British soft power to China, the new global hegemon. So it's win-win.

    The same process will, I think, apply to many of the areas cited by Project Fear. eg. EU academic staff. Sure, some will go home, but others will come from further afield.

    Brexit is a pivot away from Europe, and out towards the wider world, just as Brexiteers predicted.
    Not to forget the fantasy that people who have left the uk following their studies pay back student loans. These Chinese students won’t be paying their fees from magic student loans company to never pay back, they’ll be up front.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470

    Of course, with a much changed House of Lords aimed more at being a federal arm of government for the four countries of the UK, it makes more sense.

    You sound like New Labour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055

    Of course, with a much changed House of Lords aimed more at being a federal arm of government for the four countries of the UK, it makes more sense.

    Wasnt a Senate of the regions Ed Ms plan?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055
    edited January 19
    Jonathan said:

    The state opening of parliament is going to be a nightmare for HM. I am not sure the Gold State Coach can stand up to the potholes on the A1. They will have to divert via the Starbucks drive thru at South Mimms.

    As amusing as that might be this sort of plan seems like it would go in tandem with elimination of pageantry and traditional procedures. No summoning commons to the lords, no speech from the throne possibly- probably get the pm to read out the speech theyve always written instead.

    If you're making a radical change like this youd have to make changes to presentation and procedure, and the British system is full of 'you wouldn't design it this way from scratch but leave it as it is as no harm to doing so' style situations, and lacking that you might as well change everything and do away with the flappery.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 9,984

    Why the north of England? Why not Scotland or Wales?

    Because the Tories won a number of seats in the North of England. They didn't show the slightest interest in the place before. If so, good for the North of England. Nowhere should be taken for granted.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    eek said:

    Byronic said:

    Excellent idea. Do it. York is a good choice

    Incidentally, in the middle of the Brexit horror show, won't someone think of UK universities? They are doomed to decline as foreign students shun the hostile atmos...

    Oh.

    "Number of international students at UK universities jumps

    Chinese students help fuel surge in non-European foreigners starting courses"

    https://www.ft.com/content/8f025b0e-3872-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4

    Universities had 3 years to prepare for something that only has a 12-18 month sales cycle (I did some pre-sales to universities over the past 18 months and the sales cycle is easy to work out. With UCAS forms for September 2020 admissions done things now turn to September 2021.
    But... but.... but... we were explicitly told the racist and hostile attitude, expressed by Brexit, would put off all the foreign students?!

    "Brexit would put one in five international students off studying in UK, study finds"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-international-students-uk-universities-a8862081.html

    As it turns out, that was total bollocks. EU students will simply be replaced by non-EU students. China especially. And Chinese students work hard and have lots of money, and extend British soft power to China, the new global hegemon. So it's win-win.

    The same process will, I think, apply to many of the areas cited by Project Fear. eg. EU academic staff. Sure, some will go home, but others will come from further afield.

    Brexit is a pivot away from Europe, and out towards the wider world, just as Brexiteers predicted.
    Not to forget the fantasy that people who have left the uk following their studies pay back student loans. These Chinese students won’t be paying their fees from magic student loans company to never pay back, they’ll be up front.
    Hadn't thought of that. But yes.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,004
    Byronic said:

    eek said:

    Byronic said:

    Excellent idea. Do it. York is a good choice

    Incidentally, in the middle of the Brexit horror show, won't someone think of UK universities? They are doomed to decline as foreign students shun the hostile atmos...

    Oh.

    "Number of international students at UK universities jumps

    Chinese students help fuel surge in non-European foreigners starting courses"

    https://www.ft.com/content/8f025b0e-3872-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4

    Universities had 3 years to prepare for something that only has a 12-18 month sales cycle (I did some pre-sales to universities over the past 18 months and the sales cycle is easy to work out. With UCAS forms for September 2020 admissions done things now turn to September 2021.
    But... but.... but... we were explicitly told the racist and hostile attitude, expressed by Brexit, would put off all the foreign students?!

    "Brexit would put one in five international students off studying in UK, study finds"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-international-students-uk-universities-a8862081.html

    As it turns out, that was total bollocks. EU students will simply be replaced by non-EU students. China especially. And Chinese students work hard and have lots of money, and extend British soft power to China, the new global hegemon. So it's win-win.

    The same process will, I think, apply to many of the areas cited by Project Fear. eg. EU academic staff. Sure, some will go home, but others will come from further afield.

    Brexit is a pivot away from Europe, and out towards the wider world, just as Brexiteers predicted.

    What makes our universities great is the R&D they do. It is vital this continues. We will always be able to find students to teach undergraduate engineering, computing and science courses to. The challenge will be attracting the post-graduates and absorbing them into the wider university hinterlands that currently exist. That will depend heavily on the immigration rules we put in place. Chinese students will go home.

  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 391
    Moving the Lords to York would save a fortune in attendance allowances.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055
    TGOHF666 said:

    Moving the Lords to York would save a fortune in attendance allowances.

    Itd happen at the same time as other plans, smaller lords but higher allowances or even just wages, I assume.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited January 19

    Byronic said:

    eek said:

    Byronic said:

    Excellent idea. Do it. York is a good choice

    Incidentally, in the middle of the Brexit horror show, won't someone think of UK universities? They are doomed to decline as foreign students shun the hostile atmos...

    Oh.

    "Number of international students at UK universities jumps

    Chinese students help fuel surge in non-European foreigners starting courses"

    https://www.ft.com/content/8f025b0e-3872-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4

    Universities had 3 years to prepare for something that only has a 12-18 month sales cycle (I did some pre-sales to universities over the past 18 months and the sales cycle is easy to work out. With UCAS forms for September 2020 admissions done things now turn to September 2021.
    But... but.... but... we were explicitly told the racist and hostile attitude, expressed by Brexit, would put off all the foreign students?!

    "Brexit would put one in five international students off studying in UK, study finds"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-international-students-uk-universities-a8862081.html

    As it turns out, that was total bollocks. EU students will simply be replaced by non-EU students. China especially. And Chinese students work hard and have lots of money, and extend British soft power to China, the new global hegemon. So it's win-win.

    The same process will, I think, apply to many of the areas cited by Project Fear. eg. EU academic staff. Sure, some will go home, but others will come from further afield.

    Brexit is a pivot away from Europe, and out towards the wider world, just as Brexiteers predicted.

    What makes our universities great is the R&D they do. It is vital this continues. We will always be able to find students to teach undergraduate engineering, computing and science courses to. The challenge will be attracting the post-graduates and absorbing them into the wider university hinterlands that currently exist. That will depend heavily on the immigration rules we put in place. Chinese students will go home.

    Boris is already relaxing immigration rules for students. He's not an idiot like TMay.

    "Immigration status: Ministers tear up May-era student visa rules"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49655719?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 37,530
    edited January 19


    Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s decision to refuse the Scottish Government the right to call another independence referendum starts to look a lot less like the outrage described by nationalists and more like an example of him defending the wishes of a majority of Scots.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,055
    tlg86 said:

    Nadia Whittome doesn't say much for Labour's selection of candidates in safe seats.

    Thats the one giving away most of her salary isn't it? What's she done?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 3,943

    Why the north of England? Why not Scotland or Wales?

    The only people in Wales interested in the House of Lords are dying or dead Llafur politicians. We don't want them. York is a good choice, IMO.

    The expulsion of these bodies from London is completely correct and long overdue. There is absolutely no need for these bodies to be headquartered in London. House of Lords, the BBC, the Universities, charity headquarters, cultural institutions --- they all need too be booted out of London.

    If you are charity partly relying on charitable donations, then it seems to me that shifting out of expensive London property is absolutely crucial. Why is Shelter England HQ-ed in London -- why not e.g., Newcastle or Birmingham?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,470
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    The state opening of parliament is going to be a nightmare for HM. I am not sure the Gold State Coach can stand up to the potholes on the A1. They will have to divert via the Starbucks drive thru at South Mimms.

    As amusing as that might be this sort of plan seems like it would go in tandem with elimination of pageantry and traditional procedures. No summoning commons to the lords, no speech from the throne possibly- probably get the pm to read out the speech theyve always written instead.

    If you're making a radical change like this youd have to make changes to presentation and procedure, and the British system is full of 'you wouldn't design it this way from scratch but leave it as it is as no harm to doing so' style situations, and lacking that you might as well change everything and do away with the flappery.

    Corbyn will have to work on his small talk with Boris if he is to walk down Westminster tube, change at Green Park, take Victoria line to Kings Cross and then pass the time through the inevitable delays at Pret A Manger, before the long journey to York.
This discussion has been closed.