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    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,961

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    St Vincent has a land registry, so this shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    speedy2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:


    Well, maybe he'll learn from the experience. He's got a bit of time, and he seems a quick study. But really this is madness: Klobuchar with Pete as VP is (to me at least) obviously the best ticket out there by miles.

    And Pete's young enough that after 8 years of Amy he could even take a few terms off and then have a crack at the top job, if he wanted.

    Yup, I wouldn't like to put him up against Trump but he'd be great at debating Mike Pence.
    Actually, I think Trump vs Buttigieg would be a lot more interesting debate than Trump vs Klobucher.

    They are polar opposites: young vs old; military service vs none; thoughtful vs blunt; religious vs irreligious.

    I'd love to see it.

    Baemy vs Trump in a debate - frankly - would be boring. And I'm long Baemy.
    Buttigieg had a desk job as an intelligence analyst, not actual military service, you can see it in his complete lack of physical training.

    And listeling to his speeches they are just a jumble of words that start with the same letter " we believe not in conflict but compassion, not confrontation but cooperation, not chaos but corsets".

    Also they are both atheists pretending to be religious.

    But he is definitely 35 years younger than Trump.
    The Republicans prepared their talking points already ?
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
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    Nigelb said:

    speedy2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:


    Well, maybe he'll learn from the experience. He's got a bit of time, and he seems a quick study. But really this is madness: Klobuchar with Pete as VP is (to me at least) obviously the best ticket out there by miles.

    And Pete's young enough that after 8 years of Amy he could even take a few terms off and then have a crack at the top job, if he wanted.

    Yup, I wouldn't like to put him up against Trump but he'd be great at debating Mike Pence.
    Actually, I think Trump vs Buttigieg would be a lot more interesting debate than Trump vs Klobucher.

    They are polar opposites: young vs old; military service vs none; thoughtful vs blunt; religious vs irreligious.

    I'd love to see it.

    Baemy vs Trump in a debate - frankly - would be boring. And I'm long Baemy.
    Buttigieg had a desk job as an intelligence analyst, not actual military service, you can see it in his complete lack of physical training.

    And listeling to his speeches they are just a jumble of words that start with the same letter " we believe not in conflict but compassion, not confrontation but cooperation, not chaos but corsets".

    Also they are both atheists pretending to be religious.

    But he is definitely 35 years younger than Trump.
    The Republicans prepared their talking points already ?
    Pete as spy not soldier looks like he is being set up for swift-boating à la John Kerry (or whatever it was called when Trump attacked John McCain's military record).
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Endillion said:

    Nigelb said:
    She sounds like she'd do an excellent job of debating against Donald Trump. She exploited a rookie mistake by her opponent mercilessly, in a way that tied into existing preconceived notions about where his weakness might lie. Excellent politics. The Dems should totally pick her.
    Agreed. On the list of vital character traits facing Trump, the Democrats shouldn't feel they have to bother with delicate scrupulousness. I'm not in favour of the dark arts of misquoting and unfair personal attacks in general, but Trump needs to be taken on with ruthless cunning.
    Dishonesty and injustice are sometimes ok?

    Ok.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    No need for an inquiry. Seems pretty standard. Late cancellation so he got a free 15k villa. That's how it works for everyone else right?
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,359
    edited February 2020
    moved
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977
    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    Because lying is what he does?
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    Because lying is what he does?
    He lies not because it is in his interest but because it is in his nature. -- Jim Hacker.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    Nigelb said:
    She sounds like she'd do an excellent job of debating against Donald Trump. She exploited a rookie mistake by her opponent mercilessly, in a way that tied into existing preconceived notions about where his weakness might lie. Excellent politics. The Dems should totally pick her.
    Agreed. On the list of vital character traits facing Trump, the Democrats shouldn't feel they have to bother with delicate scrupulousness. I'm not in favour of the dark arts of misquoting and unfair personal attacks in general, but Trump needs to be taken on with ruthless cunning.
    Dishonesty and injustice are sometimes ok?

    Ok.
    That would be “fair” personal attack so any accusation of malleable morality would be wholly unfair. Or something.
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    That Amy Klobuchar can channel Cruella de Vil is not news. It’s one of her plus points, I’d have thought.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    matt said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    Nigelb said:
    She sounds like she'd do an excellent job of debating against Donald Trump. She exploited a rookie mistake by her opponent mercilessly, in a way that tied into existing preconceived notions about where his weakness might lie. Excellent politics. The Dems should totally pick her.
    Agreed. On the list of vital character traits facing Trump, the Democrats shouldn't feel they have to bother with delicate scrupulousness. I'm not in favour of the dark arts of misquoting and unfair personal attacks in general, but Trump needs to be taken on with ruthless cunning.
    Dishonesty and injustice are sometimes ok?

    Ok.
    That would be “fair” personal attack so any accusation of malleable morality would be wholly unfair. Or something.
    I can't think when I have been so disappointed by a PB post. Surely telling the truth in all circumstances is the most basic rule there is?
  • Options

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    Because lying is what he does?
    He lies not because it is in his interest but because it is in his nature. -- Jim Hacker.
    Google suggests Hacker was quoting an aide describing Henry Kissinger.
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Secretary_Sideshow.html
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    rcs1000 said:

    speedy2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:


    Well, maybe he'll learn from the experience. He's got a bit of time, and he seems a quick study. But really this is madness: Klobuchar with Pete as VP is (to me at least) obviously the best ticket out there by miles.

    And Pete's young enough that after 8 years of Amy he could even take a few terms off and then have a crack at the top job, if he wanted.

    Yup, I wouldn't like to put him up against Trump but he'd be great at debating Mike Pence.
    Actually, I think Trump vs Buttigieg would be a lot more interesting debate than Trump vs Klobucher.

    They are polar opposites: young vs old; military service vs none; thoughtful vs blunt; religious vs irreligious.

    I'd love to see it.

    Baemy vs Trump in a debate - frankly - would be boring. And I'm long Baemy.
    Buttigieg had a desk job as an intelligence analyst, not actual military service, you can see it in his complete lack of physical training.

    And listeling to his speeches they are just a jumble of words that start with the same letter " we believe not in conflict but compassion, not confrontation but cooperation, not chaos but corsets".

    Also they are both atheists pretending to be religious.

    But he is definitely 35 years younger than Trump.
    He served in Afghanistan. 80% of the Army in Afghanistan is in non-combat roles.

    And as an atheist, I sincerely doubt he's one. For a start, he's been playing an incredibly long game.
    Anyone interested in being involved in US politics would know that they had to,
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,201

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    Because lying is what he does?
    He lies not because it is in his interest but because it is in his nature. -- Jim Hacker.
    Google suggests Hacker was quoting an aide describing Henry Kissinger.
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Secretary_Sideshow.html
    Henry Kissinger would be mortified to hear that.

    ‘I am entirely frank about myself in this book. I tell of my first mistake on page 850.’

    (Introduction to his memoirs.)
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:


    What's your view, Green Machine? Are you from the north or the republic, and do you have an allegiance?
    I'm in the North @Cookie.

    I don't really have an allegiance as such. There are good and bad in every party. I'm pretty open minded. I guess that maybe makes me pretty central.

    The problem I feel is, down south there are no centre alternatives.
    I've always found ROI politics fascinating, in that it eschews the left-right pattern of almost every other democracy. I always perceived FG as infitessimally more economically right that FF, but as FG always govern in coalition with Labour this distinction is almost meaningless. Even the names are more impenetrable than those of most European democacies.
    I'd always seen FF as the centre party, if such a thing exists, but perhaps this is not so?
    I'd say F.F are slightly​ right of F.G, not by much though.
    FF are in the ALDE whereas FG is EPP. Surely that tells us what we need to know?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,415
    Looks like Boris will get in a bit of bovver over his holiday.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,592
    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,201
    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    Maybe we should ask Extinction Rebellion to stage another protest?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    rcs1000 said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    fpt for mexicanpete

    Effect of this (photos of Carrie on financially questionable holiday) on Bojo's reputation? Zero. Maybe less than zero,

    It's all priced in. We know he is a chancer. We know he is a liar. We know he is a terrible womanizer. In the era of multi-gender school toilets and post Iraq war Trumpistic disaster-ology, no one gives a fuck.

    Bojo's job is to Get Brexit Done, & make us forget about politics, & just Be There doing his silly posh shtick, and blah blah meh. Indeed the fact Boris has a hot young partner who entertains him on exotic holidays might even be to his advantage, cf Charles the Second after the Reformation (the Merrie Monarch). No one worried about Nell Gwyn, the gossip possibly cheered them up.

    Boris is likely going to enjoy a very extended honeymoon, simply because we are all bored of civil war. As Labour becomes ever more earnest under Starmer, that honeymoon might prolong further.

    My tongue was firmly in cheek in a pre-me-too kind of way.

    Johnson, if he has lied (again) has serious questions to answer, he will undoubtedly get away with something that for any other politician might be career ending.

    As for your Starmer assertion, I believe anyone but Long-Bailey will give Johnson a run for his money through this parliament. Whether Johnson is returned in 2024 very much depends on how Brexit post December 31, 2020 works out.
    Mad prediction:

    The Tories will suffer the usual midterm blues but they will be assisted by a Labour party led by the congenitally wooden Starmer. Scotland will remain a battleground, and bad for Labour, as the SNP modestly recede (yet still ride rather high due to a lack of rivals)

    Result? Boris, having delivered a flawed but non-dystopic Brexit, will be re-elected in 2024 with a smaller majority. He will go down in history as one of the more successful Tory PMs. Not quite Thatcher, perhaps a more libidinous Macmillan, with a dash of Oliver Cromwell.

    The UK will survive intact, but will continue relative decline vis a vis Asia, as is inevitable for all western nations. We will continuously argue about Masterchef v Bake Off.

    After that, all is lost in the estuarine mists of futurology, and we shall possibly become cyborgs commuting the airways as jars of brain plasma in automated Uberdrones.

    Nighty night.

    That's a pretty uncontroversial forecast.
    From Sean it’s positively boring.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,921
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    fpt for mexicanpete

    Effect of this (photos of Carrie on financially questionable holiday) on Bojo's reputation? Zero. Maybe less than zero,

    It's all priced in. We know he is a chancer. We know he is a liar. We know he is a terrible womanizer. In the era of multi-gender school toilets and post Iraq war Trumpistic disaster-ology, no one gives a fuck.

    Bojo's job is to Get Brexit Done, & make us forget about politics, & just Be There doing his silly posh shtick, and blah blah meh. Indeed the fact Boris has a hot young partner who entertains him on exotic holidays might even be to his advantage, cf Charles the Second after the Reformation (the Merrie Monarch). No one worried about Nell Gwyn, the gossip possibly cheered them up.

    Boris is likely going to enjoy a very extended honeymoon, simply because we are all bored of civil war. As Labour becomes ever more earnest under Starmer, that honeymoon might prolong further.

    My tongue was firmly in cheek in a pre-me-too kind of way.

    Johnson, if he has lied (again) has serious questions to answer, he will undoubtedly get away with something that for any other politician might be career ending.

    As for your Starmer assertion, I believe anyone but Long-Bailey will give Johnson a run for his money through this parliament. Whether Johnson is returned in 2024 very much depends on how Brexit post December 31, 2020 works out.
    Mad prediction:

    The Tories will suffer the usual midterm blues but they will be assisted by a Labour party led by the congenitally wooden Starmer. Scotland will remain a battleground, and bad for Labour, as the SNP modestly recede (yet still ride rather high due to a lack of rivals)

    Result? Boris, having delivered a flawed but non-dystopic Brexit, will be re-elected in 2024 with a smaller majority. He will go down in history as one of the more successful Tory PMs. Not quite Thatcher, perhaps a more libidinous Macmillan, with a dash of Oliver Cromwell.

    The UK will survive intact, but will continue relative decline vis a vis Asia, as is inevitable for all western nations. We will continuously argue about Masterchef v Bake Off.

    After that, all is lost in the estuarine mists of futurology, and we shall possibly become cyborgs commuting the airways as jars of brain plasma in automated Uberdrones.

    Nighty night.







    Mad and deluded is correct , UK is bust and the fat buffoon will be remembered for being the creep he is.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,592
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:
    I'm assuming something in Eastern Europe is missing...
    Cyprus?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,921
    rcs1000 said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    St Vincent has a land registry, so this shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
    Just more Tory graft, BAU.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Might be of passing interest:

    Get past the death of all living species and there’s a few interesting observations on auto aerodynamics.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/12/car-splatometer-tests-reveal-huge-decline-number-insects

    The research adds to growing evidence of what some scientists have called an “insect apocalypse”, which is threatening a collapse in the natural world that sustains humans and all life on Earth.
  • Options

    We were talking the other day about how the Guardian love to omit crucial details when it comes to these deportation stories.

    Which is completely unsurprising. There is a small, but influential, body of opinion (amongst certain Marxist academics, human rights lawyers, left-wing journalists and other "campaigners", mainly resident in the leafier districts of North London - essentially the core of the modern Labour Party) that contends that every human being on Earth has an absolute right to go where they want and live there for as long as they please. This is because they regard both nationality and state borders as discriminatory concepts, which must therefore be swept away.

    Of course, they presently lack the political power to enact a policy of completely open borders with the whole world, so they do the next best thing which is to try to frustrate any and all attempts to deport anyone from Britain. Hence the argument that we can never stick a foreign national on a plane and throw them out of the country because, variously...

    * The individual in question is black so deporting them would be racist (because, of course, black murderers are inherently more virtuous and worthy of sympathy than white ones)
    * The crimes they committed were petty (in the opinion of the person writing the sob story, who has conveniently omitted most of the details as per those dodgy Guardian reports)
    * They might not be safe where they're going, which would constitute an outrageous violation of their human rights (not that they cared about the human rights of the people that they violated)
    * They managed to impregnate one or more women whilst they were here, so their kiddies' human rights are being outrageously violated (the human rights of the kiddies that they got hooked on heroin, or whose families they stole from, or whose mother they raped, or whose father they stabbed to death, being an irrelevance)
    * They've already done time in prison so should not be punished again with deportation (because tolerating the recidivist tendencies of our own prisoners is insufficient - we should also shoulder the risk of everybody else's)

    Meanwhile, the 99.9999% of the population that isn't holding a placard waving protest or a candlelit vigil outside the Heathrow deportation facility or the Home Office thinks "good riddance to bad rubbish."
    Excellent post.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    That's a huge blow to expats in Asia. Looks like they're cancelling the HK Sevens.
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    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    edited February 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Boris bike? Do they go out that far?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,201

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    https://youtu.be/vC4rg1Em8mo
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Boris bike? Do they go out that far?
    Brompton.
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Latex gloves.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:
    I'm assuming something in Eastern Europe is missing...
    Cyprus?
    Yes. It’s not so much missing as off the edge
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,893
    TOPPING said:

    That's a huge blow to expats in Asia. Looks like they're cancelling the HK Sevens.

    That’s a great event - at least I think it was a great event last time I was there, the memory is a little hazy... Dubai 7s is a good one too, people from every country there and a somewhat more relaxed attitude than you’d expect.

    Fair enough though, just about every sporting event in Asia has now been cancelled for the next few months. Vietnam Grand Prix on 5th April is still on at the moment, but will probably also get binned at some point soon.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Suddenly my decrepit northern provincial bus doesn’t seem so bad.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,201
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    That's a huge blow to expats in Asia. Looks like they're cancelling the HK Sevens.

    That’s a great event - at least I think it was a great event last time I was there, the memory is a little hazy... Dubai 7s is a good one too, people from every country there and a somewhat more relaxed attitude than you’d expect.

    Fair enough though, just about every sporting event in Asia has now been cancelled for the next few months. Vietnam Grand Prix on 5th April is still on at the moment, but will probably also get binned at some point soon.
    Morris Dancer will be Hanoi’d.

    I’ll get my coat.

    Have a good morning.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,893
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    That's a huge blow to expats in Asia. Looks like they're cancelling the HK Sevens.

    That’s a great event - at least I think it was a great event last time I was there, the memory is a little hazy... Dubai 7s is a good one too, people from every country there and a somewhat more relaxed attitude than you’d expect.

    Fair enough though, just about every sporting event in Asia has now been cancelled for the next few months. Vietnam Grand Prix on 5th April is still on at the moment, but will probably also get binned at some point soon.
    Morris Dancer will be Hanoi’d.

    I’ll get my coat.

    Have a good morning.
    Very good.

    Actually, he’ll be quite happy, as he’s got a bet on the number of times Lewis Hamilton finishes a race this year. Having two fewer races than expected makes it a certain winner.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    Because lying is what he does?
    He lies not because it is in his interest but because it is in his nature. -- Jim Hacker.
    Google suggests Hacker was quoting an aide describing Henry Kissinger.
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Secretary_Sideshow.html
    Henry Kissinger would be mortified to hear that.

    ‘I am entirely frank about myself in this book. I tell of my first mistake on page 850.’

    (Introduction to his memoirs.)
    I don’t think mortification is a state of mind Kissinger has ever experienced.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Latex gloves.
    Any gloves really.
  • Options
    GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Yes it's a worry. I imagine millions of journeys will be replaced by people walking, biking, scooting. Surely, anything but going on the tube. There will be a lot more working from home. For those left dependent on the tube, there will be a sense of extreme fear and panic. People will get very angry with anyone coughing or behaving oddly. There will most likely be some extreme flashes of violence with some low grade racism chucked in.

  • Options
    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    FPT

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Finland and the Baltic states are one hour ahead of Central European Time and Portugal one hour behind (like UK).

    That's a difference of East/West. Daylight savings is a matter of North/South more than East/West.
    I know, but you said "A proper European identity would transcend things like timezone differences."
    Indeed but in harmonising daylight savings the EU is doing that which Australia, America etc don't which is to harmonise across timezones daylight savings rules. Politicians from the South of Europe should not be voting on whether or not the North of Europe has daylight savings and vice-versa.
    Why not? They've done that for 20 years, because the benefits of co-ordination are so high compared to the benefits of deviation.
    The benefits of co-ordination are not high which is why even real countries spanning comparable distances don't harmonise north and south to be the same. It should be up to each nation to determine if it wishes to harmonise or not.
    The EU already harmonises north and south to be the same. The USA example shows that the north-south business is just an excuse for a failure to efficiently co-ordinate. How will the UK prosper after Brexit if the response to new ideas to improve society is total rejection on the basis that it's a change?
    The very fact that we're discussing this demonstrates how harmonisation has failed already. Daylight savings worked for Northern countries, its been harmonised so Southern countries had to do it despite having no geographic reason to do so.

    Now, primarily from Southern politicians, Daylight savings is being abolished and this is being pushed on Northern countries that have concerns over this. If harmonisation had worked in the first place we'd not be changing anything. The fact that its being changed back and forth is because people aren't happy with this.

    The UK will prosper after Brexit by doing what works for our country not the harmonised fudge that suits some of an entire continent but doesn't suit other parts.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577

    Suddenly my decrepit northern provincial bus doesn’t seem so bad.

    Indeed.
    Even without coronavirus, the air quality on the tube (particularly the deeper lines) is downright hazardous to health.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Latex gloves.
    Any gloves really.
    Don’t kink-shame.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,114
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    That's a huge blow to expats in Asia. Looks like they're cancelling the HK Sevens.

    That’s a great event - at least I think it was a great event last time I was there, the memory is a little hazy... Dubai 7s is a good one too, people from every country there and a somewhat more relaxed attitude than you’d expect.

    Fair enough though, just about every sporting event in Asia has now been cancelled for the next few months. Vietnam Grand Prix on 5th April is still on at the moment, but will probably also get binned at some point soon.
    Morris Dancer will be Hanoi’d.

    I’ll get my coat.

    Have a good morning.
    One of the more surreal moments of my life was me dancing to the B52's in Hanoi.....

    I mean - me, dancing?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    That's a huge blow to expats in Asia. Looks like they're cancelling the HK Sevens.

    That’s a great event - at least I think it was a great event last time I was there, the memory is a little hazy... Dubai 7s is a good one too, people from every country there and a somewhat more relaxed attitude than you’d expect.

    Fair enough though, just about every sporting event in Asia has now been cancelled for the next few months. Vietnam Grand Prix on 5th April is still on at the moment, but will probably also get binned at some point soon.
    Morris Dancer will be Hanoi’d.

    I’ll get my coat.

    Have a good morning.
    One of the more surreal moments of my life was me dancing to the B52's in Hanoi.....

    I mean - me, dancing?
    Even Tories throw shapes.
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Latex gloves.
    I don't get on with latex.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,893
    edited February 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    That's a huge blow to expats in Asia. Looks like they're cancelling the HK Sevens.

    That’s a great event - at least I think it was a great event last time I was there, the memory is a little hazy... Dubai 7s is a good one too, people from every country there and a somewhat more relaxed attitude than you’d expect.

    Fair enough though, just about every sporting event in Asia has now been cancelled for the next few months. Vietnam Grand Prix on 5th April is still on at the moment, but will probably also get binned at some point soon.
    Morris Dancer will be Hanoi’d.

    I’ll get my coat.

    Have a good morning.
    One of the more surreal moments of my life was me dancing to the B52's in Hanoi.....

    I mean - me, dancing?
    You mean you didn’t want to tell the wife you were in the Hanoi Love Shack?
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.
    If anyone knows how I can get a rich businessman to arrange an all expenses paid holiday to the Carribbean with a nubile young lady thrown in, please VM me.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Latex gloves.
    Any gloves really.
    I'll wear the white sparkly Michael Jackson cha'mone glove on one hand.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    The figures coming our of a China are, as I thought, entirely unreliable:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/13/coronavirus-china-purges-regional-leaders-hours-after-spike-in-deaths-and-new-cases
    “The adjustment of the data today proved without doubt that they have had two sets of numbers for confirmed infected all along,” he said. “If that were not the case, the government could not have added so many new cases in one day.”

    “A very disturbing aspect of today’s new numbers is that the vast majority of new cases accrued to Wuhan, but what if the rest of Hubei province still did not adjust their reporting methods?”

    Vaguely worded direction from central health authorities about how to deal with asymptomatic patients has caused more uncertainty. Earlier this week, health authorities in China’s northern province of Heilongjiang reduced the number of confirmed cases by 14, 13 of which were patients who were not showing symptoms of the virus.

    The move appeared to come after advice from China’s national health commission last week, which said asymptomatic patients who had tested positive would no longer be counted. Instead, they would be included in another category of asymptomatic infections...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274

    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    FPT

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Finland and the Baltic states are one hour ahead of Central European Time and Portugal one hour behind (like UK).

    That's a difference of East/West. Daylight savings is a matter of North/South more than East/West.
    I know, but you said "A proper European identity would transcend things like timezone differences."
    Indeed but in harmonising daylight savings the EU is doing that which Australia, America etc don't which is to harmonise across timezones daylight savings rules. Politicians from the South of Europe should not be voting on whether or not the North of Europe has daylight savings and vice-versa.
    Why not? They've done that for 20 years, because the benefits of co-ordination are so high compared to the benefits of deviation.
    The benefits of co-ordination are not high which is why even real countries spanning comparable distances don't harmonise north and south to be the same. It should be up to each nation to determine if it wishes to harmonise or not.
    The EU already harmonises north and south to be the same. The USA example shows that the north-south business is just an excuse for a failure to efficiently co-ordinate. How will the UK prosper after Brexit if the response to new ideas to improve society is total rejection on the basis that it's a change?
    The very fact that we're discussing this demonstrates how harmonisation has failed already. Daylight savings worked for Northern countries, its been harmonised so Southern countries had to do it despite having no geographic reason to do so.

    Now, primarily from Southern politicians, Daylight savings is being abolished and this is being pushed on Northern countries that have concerns over this. If harmonisation had worked in the first place we'd not be changing anything. The fact that its being changed back and forth is because people aren't happy with this.

    The UK will prosper after Brexit by doing what works for our country not the harmonised fudge that suits some of an entire continent but doesn't suit other parts.
    Since most of the opposition seems to come from Scotland we already have the same issue within the UK.
  • Options
    In reality, I'd probably do the riverbus.

    It's slow and not dirt cheap but it's pleasant, rarely crowded and has a bar/cafe.

    It's a delightful way to travel around London.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.
    I'm guessing you're probably joking but isn't that a good thing?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Nigelb said:

    Suddenly my decrepit northern provincial bus doesn’t seem so bad.

    Indeed.
    Even without coronavirus, the air quality on the tube (particularly the deeper lines) is downright hazardous to health.

    Experts now predict it will peak in the UK mid summer
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    FPT

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Finland and the Baltic states are one hour ahead of Central European Time and Portugal one hour behind (like UK).

    That's a difference of East/West. Daylight savings is a matter of North/South more than East/West.
    I know, but you said "A proper European identity would transcend things like timezone differences."
    Indeed but in harmonising daylight savings the EU is doing that which Australia, America etc don't which is to harmonise across timezones daylight savings rules. Politicians from the South of Europe should not be voting on whether or not the North of Europe has daylight savings and vice-versa.
    Why not? They've done that for 20 years, because the benefits of co-ordination are so high compared to the benefits of deviation.
    The benefits of co-ordination are not high which is why even real countries spanning comparable distances don't harmonise north and south to be the same. It should be up to each nation to determine if it wishes to harmonise or not.
    The EU already harmonises north and south to be the same. The USA example shows that the north-south business is just an excuse for a failure to efficiently co-ordinate. How will the UK prosper after Brexit if the response to new ideas to improve society is total rejection on the basis that it's a change?
    The very fact that we're discussing this demonstrates how harmonisation has failed already. Daylight savings worked for Northern countries, its been harmonised so Southern countries had to do it despite having no geographic reason to do so.

    Now, primarily from Southern politicians, Daylight savings is being abolished and this is being pushed on Northern countries that have concerns over this. If harmonisation had worked in the first place we'd not be changing anything. The fact that its being changed back and forth is because people aren't happy with this.

    The UK will prosper after Brexit by doing what works for our country not the harmonised fudge that suits some of an entire continent but doesn't suit other parts.
    Since most of the opposition seems to come from Scotland we already have the same issue within the UK.
    Precisely! And for the same reason and same logic.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "London Underground could be a hotbed for coronavirus, doctors say

    A total of nine people in the UK are now being treated for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-doctors-fear-tube-could-spread-covid-19-as-london-gets-first-case-11932794

    It absolutely could.

    You have to hang on if you're not seated (most people aren't seated) and will be touching bars and handles others have all day. Also, forget being at least a metre away: at rush hour you're lucky if you get more than a few centimetres away from someone's face. And you'll often be down there for 15 mins or more, which is plenty of time to catch it.

    Now, how do I commute from Waterloo to Stratford efficiently without touching the tube once..
    Latex gloves.
    Any gloves really.
    Don’t kink-shame.
    I always choo-choose not to do that.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,893
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.
    A good journalist would have found out who actually signed off the complimentary house rental - but it’s probably just the marketing manager at the rental company, who got a late cancellation who had paid up front, and the publicity of having the PM visit was worth the cost of the cleaner. They probably rented somewhere else to his police escorts and aides too.
  • Options
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: more markets up on Ladbrokes. The season race wins returns but with China specifically excluded, which I suspect will be a common theme.

    Nothing leaps out.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,592
    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,333
    edited February 2020

    [snip for length]Hence the argument that we can never stick a foreign national on a plane and throw them out of the country because, variously...

    * The individual in question is black so deporting them would be racist (because, of course, black murderers are inherently more virtuous and worthy of sympathy than white ones)
    * The crimes they committed were petty (in the opinion of the person writing the sob story, who has conveniently omitted most of the details as per those dodgy Guardian reports)
    * They might not be safe where they're going, which would constitute an outrageous violation of their human rights (not that they cared about the human rights of the people that they violated)
    * They managed to impregnate one or more women whilst they were here, so their kiddies' human rights are being outrageously violated (the human rights of the kiddies that they got hooked on heroin, or whose families they stole from, or whose mother they raped, or whose father they stabbed to death, being an irrelevance)
    * They've already done time in prison so should not be punished again with deportation (because tolerating the recidivist tendencies of our own prisoners is insufficient - we should also shoulder the risk of everybody else's)

    Meanwhile, the 99.9999% of the population that isn't holding a placard waving protest or a candlelit vigil outside the Heathrow deportation facility or the Home Office thinks "good riddance to bad rubbish."

    I'm not sure it's worth engaging on this as our views are so far apart, but briefly:

    * You don't have to be left-wing to recognise that it's an accident of fate that we're born in a generally pleasant, prosperous country, and to acknowledge that it's reasonable for people to want to be here
    * If they've largely grown up here, the default assumption should be that they should stay, even if they break the law. We don't expel people for committing offences as a rule, and there is no real difference to whether we were born here or came here aged 5. This is not the same as believing that the entire population of Zambia should move to Britain, or that an adult who arrived recently should be given the same consideration.
    * There is a tendency, actively encouraged by the Government and sections of the press, to lump everyone in a group together instead of treating them as individuals, so that someone who was talked into minor drug offences as a teenager is lumped with murderers and rapists. Treating people as individuals is fundamental to a decent outlook, including, if I may say so, a traditional Conservative outlook. It's the hardline Marxists who are accused of treating everyone as being defined by being part of a group.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.
    I'm guessing you're probably joking but isn't that a good thing?
    It was a half joke, because he claims he thought person x paid for it when they didn't, so at best he was stupid and careless, and he might have been intending to play the tune if someone he thought paid him even though they didnt. And what if someone truly reprehensible had in fact paid for it, hed have had no idea apparently.

    Politicians only use the 'I'm stupid' defence when they have no other option because it looks pretty bad, like Corbyn and his mural defence.
  • Options

    We were talking the other day about how the Guardian love to omit crucial details when it comes to these deportation stories.

    Which is completely unsurprising. There is a small, but influential, body of opinion (amongst certain Marxist academics, human rights lawyers, left-wing journalists and other "campaigners", mainly resident in the leafier districts of North London - essentially the core of the modern Labour Party) that contends that every human being on Earth has an absolute right to go where they want and live there for as long as they please. This is because they regard deport anyone from Britain. Hence the argument that we can never stick a foreign national on a plane and throw them out of the country because, variously...

    * The individual in question is black so deporting them would be racist (because, of course, black murderers are inherently more virtuous and worthy of sympathy than white ones)
    * The crimes they committed were petty (in the opinion of the person writing the sob story, who has conveniently omitted most of the details as per those dodgy Guardian reports)
    * They might not be safe where they're going, which would constitute an outrageous violation of their human rights (not that they cared about the human rights of the people that they violated)
    * They managed to impregnate one or more women whilst they were here, so their kiddies' human rights are being outrageously violated (the human rights of the kiddies that they got hooked on heroin, or whose families they stole from, or whose mother they raped, or whose father they stabbed to death, being an irrelevance)
    * They've already done time in prison so should not be punished again with deportation (because tolerating the recidivist tendencies of our own prisoners is insufficient - we should also shoulder the risk of everybody else's)

    Meanwhile, the 99.9999% of the population that isn't holding a placard waving protest or a candlelit vigil outside the Heathrow deportation facility or the Home Office thinks "good riddance to bad rubbish."
    This this this... I think times have changed though. Too many people know what the game is, and they know that these are in most cases significant undesirables. They also know when the wool is being pulled over their eyes. Like the child refugees from France been presented as mostly seven year old boys and girls reuniting with their parents when it was almost universally 16yr old plus young men, vast numbers which would have lied about their age and destroyed any forms of identification.

    The sadness too though, it will be that amongst those rounded up there will be some genuine cases of people in which it would be unjust to send them back, who have turned their lives around etc. And a bit of compassion wouldn’t go amiss.

    If you leave blanks in the story social media will fill the gaps.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    All the resources of the NHS are being directed at nine people. And those who caught it have been international travellers who are younger and fitter than the sort of cases that are likely to turn fatal.
  • Options
    GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    edited February 2020
    Nigelb said:

    The figures coming our of a China are, as I thought, entirely unreliable:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/13/coronavirus-china-purges-regional-leaders-hours-after-spike-in-deaths-and-new-cases
    “The adjustment of the data today proved without doubt that they have had two sets of numbers for confirmed infected all along,” he said. “If that were not the case, the government could not have added so many new cases in one day.”

    “A very disturbing aspect of today’s new numbers is that the vast majority of new cases accrued to Wuhan, but what if the rest of Hubei province still did not adjust their reporting methods?”

    Vaguely worded direction from central health authorities about how to deal with asymptomatic patients has caused more uncertainty. Earlier this week, health authorities in China’s northern province of Heilongjiang reduced the number of confirmed cases by 14, 13 of which were patients who were not showing symptoms of the virus.

    The move appeared to come after advice from China’s national health commission last week, which said asymptomatic patients who had tested positive would no longer be counted. Instead, they would be included in another category of asymptomatic infections...

    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    We need more data.

    The dataset from China is vast compared to the RoW.

    (That doesn't mean I'm asking for or want more infections by the way, just that it's too early to draw conclusions)
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    It's quite odd, isn't it?
  • Options
    GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123

    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    It's quite odd, isn't it?
    The care given to one soldier shot during a battle is likely to be far superior to the care given when half the army has been shot.

    It's not really that odd at all.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    It's quite odd, isn't it?
    The care given to one soldier shot during a battle is likely to be far superior to the care given when half the army has been shot.

    It's not really that odd at all.
    Nah, it’s clearly a bioweapon that has been designed to target people of Chinese ethnic origin by the Lizard people. Wake up sheeple.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.

    I'm guessing you're probably joking but isn't that a good thing?
    It was a half joke, because he claims he thought person x paid for it when they didn't, so at best he was stupid and careless, and he might have been intending to play the tune if someone he thought paid him even though they didnt. And what if someone truly reprehensible had in fact paid for it, hed have had no idea apparently.

    Politicians only use the 'I'm stupid' defence when they have no other option because it looks pretty bad, like Corbyn and his mural defence.
    Politicians who expect to "pay the piper" (or those paying who expect to call a tune) will make sure they know who paid for it. Politicians who don't, or donors who don't want anything in return, may not dig in beyond what is required to fulfil their duties to report x which is what he did.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577



    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.

    I didn't mention conspiracies.
    It is simply that there is no consistent basis on which figures are being reported (note the continued uncertainty about whether the new standard has been generally adopted).
    Couple that with an overwhelmed health system, a state organisation completely opposed to openness, and the likelihood that large numbers of infections (particularly asymptomatic) remain undiagnosed, and you can see that it is impossible to draw any reliable conclusions from the data reported.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,114
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Holidaygate: who paid for Boris's Caribbean jaunt?

    David Ross, co-founder of the Carphone Warehouse and a Tory donor, said the Mustique villa the PM and partner Carrie Symonds stayed at for a week is not owned by him.

    And he is adamant he didn't pay the £15,000 for the trip, as claimed by Mr Johnson in the latest Commons register of interests, published on Wednesday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tycoon-denies-paying-boris-johnson-21487615

    So who did pay for it and why did Johnson feel compelled to lie about it?
    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.
    A good journalist would have found out who actually signed off the complimentary house rental - but it’s probably just the marketing manager at the rental company, who got a late cancellation who had paid up front, and the publicity of having the PM visit was worth the cost of the cleaner. They probably rented somewhere else to his police escorts and aides too.
    Boris has declared the value of the trip correctly. A party donor said he would organise a place. Turns out the donor found a late cancellation, persuaded whoever's place it was that having the PM stay would be well worth £15k of waived rental. PM happy, donor has saved £15k himself, so donor happy, owner of place happy.

    Sorry, but where in this arrangement should UK taxpayer be unhappy?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    Probably the best place to watch is Singapore. They have a good quality health system, and a significant outbreak. No deaths so far but 8 in intensive care.

    https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1227582378564083714?s=19
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577

    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).
    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    It's quite odd, isn't it?
    Yes, but remember it seems as though deaths can occur quite some time after initial infection (perhaps three weeks), and the number of reported cases outside of China is not yet very large (around 400), and most of those quite recently.
    And the outbreak in China began in November.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,266
    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    The lack of any figures from Indonesia is odd. I fear that it could become a base for this virus much less amenable to control than China.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    We are still running ahead of that coronavirus forecast that was posted on Twitter
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.

    I'm guessing you're probably joking but isn't that a good thing?
    It was a half joke, because he claims he thought person x paid for it when they didn't, so at best he was stupid and careless, and he might have been intending to play the tune if someone he thought paid him even though they didnt. And what if someone truly reprehensible had in fact paid for it, hed have had no idea apparently.

    Politicians only use the 'I'm stupid' defence when they have no other option because it looks pretty bad, like Corbyn and his mural defence.
    Politicians who expect to "pay the piper" (or those paying who expect to call a tune) will make sure they know who paid for it. Politicians who don't, or donors who don't want anything in return, may not dig in beyond what is required to fulfil their duties to report x which is what he did.
    Ergo he is very stupid abd lazy because he has made false claims in error, not malevolence.

    Yes that usually better than being in someone's pocket but it doesnt instill confidence. It's not hard to not falsely claim someone paid when they didnt, he could have spared 5 minutes to get it right and avoided further criticism.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Nigelb said:



    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.

    I didn't mention conspiracies.
    It is simply that there is no consistent basis on which figures are being reported (note the continued uncertainty about whether the new standard has been generally adopted).
    Couple that with an overwhelmed health system, a state organisation completely opposed to openness, and the likelihood that large numbers of infections (particularly asymptomatic) remain undiagnosed, and you can see that it is impossible to draw any reliable conclusions from the data reported.
    The only interesting thing I can see so far is why the Tory donor who owns the properties and who had been quite happy to shower Tories with all sorts of gifts and cash has been so quick and apparently keen to deny being the one who paid.
  • Options
    GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Nigelb said:



    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.

    I didn't mention conspiracies.
    It is simply that there is no consistent basis on which figures are being reported (note the continued uncertainty about whether the new standard has been generally adopted).
    Couple that with an overwhelmed health system, a state organisation completely opposed to openness, and the likelihood that large numbers of infections (particularly asymptomatic) remain undiagnosed, and you can see that it is impossible to draw any reliable conclusions from the data reported.
    I think we can draw the reasonable conclusion that the numbers that have been released up to now are likely to be the absolute best-case (most favourable) scenario of what is going on. What the worse-case estimate is, who knows.

    If the government were taking this seriously they would have done far more by now, instead Boris is too busy playing with his train sets and thinking about bridges. It's absolutely laughable.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    We are still running ahead of that coronavirus forecast that was posted on Twitter

    There are good possible reasons why that might be the case and it still not be a pandemic, perhaps the simplest of which is that at the time it was put together there were quite possibly a lot more cases than had been reported. But it's not encouraging.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577

    [snip for length]Hence the argument that we can never stick a foreign national on a plane and throw them out of the country because, variously...



    Meanwhile, the 99.9999% of the population that isn't holding a placard waving protest or a candlelit vigil outside the Heathrow deportation facility or the Home Office thinks "good riddance to bad rubbish."

    I'm not sure it's worth engaging on this as our views are so far apart, but briefly:

    * You don't have to be left-wing to recognise that it's an accident of fate that we're born in a generally pleasant, prosperous country, and to acknowledge that it's reasonable for people to want to be here
    * If they've largely grown up here, the default assumption should be that they should stay, even if they break the law. We don't expel people for committing offences as a rule, and there is no real difference to whether we were born here or came here aged 5. This is not the same as believing that the entire population of Zambia should move to Britain, or that an adult who arrived recently should be given the same consideration.
    * There is a tendency, actively encouraged by the Government and sections of the press, to lump everyone in a group together instead of treating them as individuals, so that someone who was talked into minor drug offences as a teenager is lumped with murderers and rapists. Treating people as individuals is fundamental to a decent outlook, including, if I may say so, a traditional Conservative outlook. It's the hardline Marxists who are accused of treating everyone as being defined by being part of a group.
    Though my politics are miles apart from yours, Nick, I agree with all those points.

    The last one, in particular, is essential to any system of justice, and I thought the way ministers adopted that kind of rhetoric in the Commons deeply regrettable.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    Nigelb said:

    The figures coming our of a China are, as I thought, entirely unreliable:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/13/coronavirus-china-purges-regional-leaders-hours-after-spike-in-deaths-and-new-cases
    “The adjustment of the data today proved without doubt that they have had two sets of numbers for confirmed infected all along,” he said. “If that were not the case, the government could not have added so many new cases in one day.”

    “A very disturbing aspect of today’s new numbers is that the vast majority of new cases accrued to Wuhan, but what if the rest of Hubei province still did not adjust their reporting methods?”

    Vaguely worded direction from central health authorities about how to deal with asymptomatic patients has caused more uncertainty. Earlier this week, health authorities in China’s northern province of Heilongjiang reduced the number of confirmed cases by 14, 13 of which were patients who were not showing symptoms of the virus.

    The move appeared to come after advice from China’s national health commission last week, which said asymptomatic patients who had tested positive would no longer be counted. Instead, they would be included in another category of asymptomatic infections...

    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.
    The Molecular test also seems quite slow to become positive, even when the clinical diagnosis is clear. Dr Wenliang had several negative tests before becoming positive. We may be seeing a similar issue on the cruise line, though that could also be to do with quarantine procedures. One of those cases is a Japanese Quarantine official, who one would have thought had all the correct protection.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:



    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.

    I didn't mention conspiracies.
    It is simply that there is no consistent basis on which figures are being reported (note the continued uncertainty about whether the new standard has been generally adopted).
    Couple that with an overwhelmed health system, a state organisation completely opposed to openness, and the likelihood that large numbers of infections (particularly asymptomatic) remain undiagnosed, and you can see that it is impossible to draw any reliable conclusions from the data reported.
    The only interesting thing I can see so far is why the Tory donor who owns the properties and who had been quite happy to shower Tories with all sorts of gifts and cash has been so quick and apparently keen to deny being the one who paid.
    Not quite sure what that has to do with the reporting of coronavirus numbers in China....
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    A good journalist would have found out who actually signed off the complimentary house rental - but it’s probably just the marketing manager at the rental company, who got a late cancellation who had paid up front, and the publicity of having the PM visit was worth the cost of the cleaner. They probably rented somewhere else to his police escorts and aides too.

    Boris has declared the value of the trip correctly. A party donor said he would organise a place. Turns out the donor found a late cancellation, persuaded whoever's place it was that having the PM stay would be well worth £15k of waived rental. PM happy, donor has saved £15k himself, so donor happy, owner of place happy.

    Sorry, but where in this arrangement should UK taxpayer be unhappy?
    And the donor who organised it was reported properly too. The fact the donor had a convoluted way of paying for it wasn't the PM's responsibility.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    According to the Mail, it could be more cock-up than conspiracy, as Ross arranged it but did not pay for it. Whether this goes anywhere might depend on who did pay; otherwise it can be written off as understandable confusion.

    A spokesman for the businessman said: ‘Boris Johnson did not stay in David Ross’s house.

    ‘Boris wanted some help to find somewhere in Mustique, David called the company who run all the villas and somebody had dropped out.

    'So Boris got the use of a villa that was worth £15,000, but David Ross did not pay any monies whatsoever for this.’

    Asked about Mr Johnson’s declaration, the spokesman said: ‘I believe it is a mistake.’

    He added that Mr Ross had ‘not put his hand in his pocket whatsoever and can obviously prove that – [he] most definitely did not pay anything and it was not his house.

    ‘It was a house that was rented but the people could not turn up, so Boris Johnson got the use of it.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7997379/Prime-Minister-declares-millionaire-donor-New-Year-break-tycoon-says-Oh-no-wasnt.html

    Perhaps Boris can set up another inquiry whose results are never published, like those into Islamophobia, Russian interference, and Arcuri.
    What kind of idiot politician cant even figure out who is paying for their holiday? He can hardly play the right tune if he doesnt know who is paying the piper.
    A good journalist would have found out who actually signed off the complimentary house rental - but it’s probably just the marketing manager at the rental company, who got a late cancellation who had paid up front, and the publicity of having the PM visit was worth the cost of the cleaner. They probably rented somewhere else to his police escorts and aides too.
    Boris has declared the value of the trip correctly. A party donor said he would organise a place. Turns out the donor found a late cancellation, persuaded whoever's place it was that having the PM stay would be well worth £15k of waived rental. PM happy, donor has saved £15k himself, so donor happy, owner of place happy.

    Sorry, but where in this arrangement should UK taxpayer be unhappy?
    If that is true, then no issue - possibly. But you are making an assumption that the cost was waived rather than paid by someone other than David Ross.

    It should not be hard to disclose whether (a) the cost was paid by someone else; (b) who that person was.

    Currently neither of those facts have been put on the Register and what has been put on is incorrect. So a correction is needed.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    edited February 2020
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    The figures coming our of a China are, as I thought, entirely unreliable:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/13/coronavirus-china-purges-regional-leaders-hours-after-spike-in-deaths-and-new-cases
    “The adjustment of the data today proved without doubt that they have had two sets of numbers for confirmed infected all along,” he said. “If that were not the case, the government could not have added so many new cases in one day.”

    “A very disturbing aspect of today’s new numbers is that the vast majority of new cases accrued to Wuhan, but what if the rest of Hubei province still did not adjust their reporting methods?”

    Vaguely worded direction from central health authorities about how to deal with asymptomatic patients has caused more uncertainty. Earlier this week, health authorities in China’s northern province of Heilongjiang reduced the number of confirmed cases by 14, 13 of which were patients who were not showing symptoms of the virus.

    The move appeared to come after advice from China’s national health commission last week, which said asymptomatic patients who had tested positive would no longer be counted. Instead, they would be included in another category of asymptomatic infections...

    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.
    The Molecular test also seems quite slow to become positive, even when the clinical diagnosis is clear. Dr Wenliang had several negative tests before becoming positive. We may be seeing a similar issue on the cruise line, though that could also be to do with quarantine procedures. One of those cases is a Japanese Quarantine official, who one would have thought had all the correct protection.
    Also they have tested only a limited number of passengers.
    The Japanese have not dealt well with this situation.

    would have thought had all the correct protection
    Gloves and mask only, apparently.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,893

    We were talking the other day about how the Guardian love to omit crucial details when it comes to these deportation stories.

    ...)

    Meanwhile, the 99.9999% of the population that isn't holding a placard waving protest or a candlelit vigil outside the Heathrow deportation facility or the Home Office thinks "good riddance to bad rubbish."
    This this this... I think times have changed though. Too many people know what the game is, and they know that these are in most cases significant undesirables. They also know when the wool is being pulled over their eyes. Like the child refugees from France been presented as mostly seven year old boys and girls reuniting with their parents when it was almost universally 16yr old plus young men, vast numbers which would have lied about their age and destroyed any forms of identification.

    The sadness too though, it will be that amongst those rounded up there will be some genuine cases of people in which it would be unjust to send them back, who have turned their lives around etc. And a bit of compassion wouldn’t go amiss.

    If you leave blanks in the story social media will fill the gaps.
    It would be interesting to know what percentage of foreign nationals sent to prison get deported. I imagine it’s actually a very small proportion, and we don’t hear about the rest because they simply leave prison and go back to their previous lives.

    Those reporting on these stories also have a bad habit of leaving things out which materially affect the decision - the ‘boy who got groomed by a gang’ often turns out to be a major player in one of the gangs, with a record as long as his arm and the police are desperate to get rid of him to show the gangs who’s in charge.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203

    Sandpit said:

    A good journalist would have found out who actually signed off the complimentary house rental - but it’s probably just the marketing manager at the rental company, who got a late cancellation who had paid up front, and the publicity of having the PM visit was worth the cost of the cleaner. They probably rented somewhere else to his police escorts and aides too.

    Boris has declared the value of the trip correctly. A party donor said he would organise a place. Turns out the donor found a late cancellation, persuaded whoever's place it was that having the PM stay would be well worth £15k of waived rental. PM happy, donor has saved £15k himself, so donor happy, owner of place happy.

    Sorry, but where in this arrangement should UK taxpayer be unhappy?
    And the donor who organised it was reported properly too. The fact the donor had a convoluted way of paying for it wasn't the PM's responsibility.
    David Ross was not the donor. Not his villa and he did not pay for it.

    The Register records who pays the MP not who arranges the visit. So a correction of some kind is needed. This may well be no more than cock up rather than anything more sinister but still important to get the precise details right.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,893
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's notable that only one person outside China has died from the coronavirus, and none outside east Asia. (The one case was in the Philippines).

    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

    Probably the best place to watch is Singapore. They have a good quality health system, and a significant outbreak. No deaths so far but 8 in intensive care.

    https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1227582378564083714?s=19
    That’s very good, especially showing the relationships between people and places affected
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,114
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:



    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.

    I didn't mention conspiracies.
    It is simply that there is no consistent basis on which figures are being reported (note the continued uncertainty about whether the new standard has been generally adopted).
    Couple that with an overwhelmed health system, a state organisation completely opposed to openness, and the likelihood that large numbers of infections (particularly asymptomatic) remain undiagnosed, and you can see that it is impossible to draw any reliable conclusions from the data reported.
    The only interesting thing I can see so far is why the Tory donor who owns the properties and who had been quite happy to shower Tories with all sorts of gifts and cash has been so quick and apparently keen to deny being the one who paid.
    Not quite sure what that has to do with the reporting of coronavirus numbers in China....
    Kicking the PM is a much jollier sport.....
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710



    Boris has declared the value of the trip correctly. A party donor said he would organise a place. Turns out the donor found a late cancellation, persuaded whoever's place it was that having the PM stay would be well worth £15k of waived rental. PM happy, donor has saved £15k himself, so donor happy, owner of place happy.

    Sorry, but where in this arrangement should UK taxpayer be unhappy?

    Basic ABC is where.

    (Anti bribery and corruption)
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203

    Alistair said:

    We are still running ahead of that coronavirus forecast that was posted on Twitter

    There are good possible reasons why that might be the case and it still not be a pandemic, perhaps the simplest of which is that at the time it was put together there were quite possibly a lot more cases than had been reported. But it's not encouraging.
    The woman who arrived here from China and now has the virus is the most troubling. She will have been in a queue at Heathrow. How can the authorities possibly trace all the people who stood in the queue with her or the taxi driver or those on the train or tube?

    I am jolly glad that after a few days in London, including a visit to a party in Worthing, I shall be back up to an obscure part of the Lakes from Saturday.

    My lungs are so compromised already that I really don’t want to take any more risks.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    Foxy said:



    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.

    The Molecular test also seems quite slow to become positive, even when the clinical diagnosis is clear. Dr Wenliang had several negative tests before becoming positive. We may be seeing a similar issue on the cruise line...
    That seems to be the case:
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/12/national/science-health/japan-covid-19-test-kit-shortage-cruise-ship/
    Health minister Katsunobu Kato said Wednesday his ministry will seek measures to screen everyone aboard the ship but Japan apparently has had its hands tied, as the number of test kits to diagnose the new coronavirus has been limited, in addition to logistics difficulties.

    “We would be overrun,” Kato said during a news conference Monday when commenting on the stock of the kits.

    A health ministry official confirmed Wednesday that only 492 samples have been collected so far, noting that the figure includes specimens collected from the same people multiple times...

  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    We were talking the other day about how the Guardian love to omit crucial details when it comes to these deportation stories.

    ...)

    Meanwhile, the 99.9999% of the population that isn't holding a placard waving protest or a candlelit vigil outside the Heathrow deportation facility or the Home Office thinks "good riddance to bad rubbish."
    This this this... I think times have changed though. Too many people know what the game is, and they know that these are in most cases significant undesirables. They also know when the wool is being pulled over their eyes. Like the child refugees from France been presented as mostly seven year old boys and girls reuniting with their parents when it was almost universally 16yr old plus young men, vast numbers which would have lied about their age and destroyed any forms of identification.

    The sadness too though, it will be that amongst those rounded up there will be some genuine cases of people in which it would be unjust to send them back, who have turned their lives around etc. And a bit of compassion wouldn’t go amiss.

    If you leave blanks in the story social media will fill the gaps.
    It would be interesting to know what percentage of foreign nationals sent to prison get deported. I imagine it’s actually a very small proportion, and we don’t hear about the rest because they simply leave prison and go back to their previous lives.

    Those reporting on these stories also have a bad habit of leaving things out which materially affect the decision - the ‘boy who got groomed by a gang’ often turns out to be a major player in one of the gangs, with a record as long as his arm and the police are desperate to get rid of him to show the gangs who’s in charge.
    “He was a bit of a lad” and then Facebook photos appear of him holding a gun...
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    If the bloke in charge of the country can't even tell who spaffed 15 grand (1,827 hours of a minimum wage workers time) on him then I worry a bit about his eye for detail in, say, commissioning a big fuck off bridge.
  • Options

    Nigelb said:



    So it sounds like they have been counting as Coronavirus deaths/cases only those diagnosed with a molecular diagnostic test. That test has capacity limits to how many can be done per day and so those who were suffering without the test were previously not being counted.

    Now they are also classifying those where it is pretty obviously Coronavirus, a clinical diagnosis, but where there is no confirmatory test. So overnight the numbers dying per day has doubled.

    Changing the diagnosis method is not necessarily a conspiracy but I would also not be surprised if separate bureaucracies are manipulating their figures.

    But bottom line, it's worse than we thought it was just yesterday.

    I didn't mention conspiracies.
    It is simply that there is no consistent basis on which figures are being reported (note the continued uncertainty about whether the new standard has been generally adopted).
    Couple that with an overwhelmed health system, a state organisation completely opposed to openness, and the likelihood that large numbers of infections (particularly asymptomatic) remain undiagnosed, and you can see that it is impossible to draw any reliable conclusions from the data reported.
    I think we can draw the reasonable conclusion that the numbers that have been released up to now are likely to be the absolute best-case (most favourable) scenario of what is going on. What the worse-case estimate is, who knows.

    If the government were taking this seriously they would have done far more by now, instead Boris is too busy playing with his train sets and thinking about bridges. It's absolutely laughable.
    Our Government is doing everything it can in my view.

    What more would you have them do?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,333



    Boris has declared the value of the trip correctly. A party donor said he would organise a place. Turns out the donor found a late cancellation, persuaded whoever's place it was that having the PM stay would be well worth £15k of waived rental. PM happy, donor has saved £15k himself, so donor happy, owner of place happy.

    Sorry, but where in this arrangement should UK taxpayer be unhappy?

    I shouldn't think most taxpayers care. But Parliamentary rules require that you state who has given you non-trivial gifts, including gifts in kind, so that people can assess whether this might have affected your judgment about an issue. We should not establish the principle that gifts in kind don't matter. Nor the principle that Prime Ministers don't need to follow the rules.

    This is not to suggest that Johnson has deliberately done anything wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if he's never got round to reading the rules exactly, so he thought it was correct to put down the chap who arranged the stay. But the mistake should be corrected and (assuming the actual donor is not someone dodgy) we should then move on.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    This is a very interesting graphic (though I've no idea how accurate the data might be):

    https://twitter.com/lbronner/status/1227460399416606720
This discussion has been closed.