Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Number 10’s power-grab is sowing the seeds of its own failure

24567

Comments

  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    Elegantly written, like all David's pieces. The trick of changing leaders and asking the electorate to give the new team a chance is well-tried (Johnson, May, Brown, Major) and mostly works quite well, so I can see the Tories turning on Boris in year 4, but probably not earlier.

    Cummings is interesting, as he seems to have set out to portray himself as the Rasputin character - ruthless, charismatic, a lightning rod for criticism, and loyal to the leader. But what's his actual agenda? He seems to be from the anti-conservative (small c) wing of the right, who think that disruption and aggression are signs of dynamism and change - the opposite extreme to, say, John Major. This kind of restless spirit guarantees frequent controversy, although he'll sometimes have a real success as he bulldozes one or another opposition. It's a style that makes enemies very quickly, though, and I think he'll be gone by 2022, as a sacrifical goat when things get tough.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Boris won't be replaced as he is by far the best vote winner the Tories have got.

    If they replaced him in 2022 or 2023 it would be an act of desperation with a Labour led Government almost certain based on the polling at the forthcoming general election anyway

    That’s when we get the promise of a referendum on reintroducing the death penalty.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    malcolmg said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    Count Scotland out, we will soon be gone
    Hardly, Boris has ruled out indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon's dithering in response makes May look decisive
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,111

    TGOHF666 said:
    That is not a flattering picture, her mouth/lipstick are sub optimal
    Unfortunately - and it shouldn’t matter, but if she becomes leader it will - there appears to be no way of taking a flattering photo of RLB. She always looks extremely sour and miserable. I think it’s something to do with the shape of her mouth.
  • Options

    Kier Starmer is Theresa May really isn't he. Lengthy career in a law-focused role, no achievements beyond survival, inoffensive to most, no charisma.

    Michael Howard, perhaps, rather than Theresa May. Barristers who were expected by their own side to hold the Prime Minister to account with their forensic questioning and expose him as a charlatan, fraud and buffoon; replacing IDS and JC who were seen to have failed at PMQs.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,532
    HYUFD said:

    Boris won't be replaced as he is by far the best vote winner the Tories have got.

    If they replaced him in 2022 or 2023 it would be an act of desperation with a Labour led Government almost certain based on the polling at the forthcoming general election anyway

    Johnson's strength is the Tories weakness. He has a personal popularity (albeit a very divisive one) that far exceeds his party, the opposite of Labour and Corbyn. The Tories cannot afford to be rid of him.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    The government has not decided that at all, it just got an agreement that avoided a hard border with the Republic of Ireland, while in Deceember the DUP still came first on votes and seats in Northern Ireland
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,111
    edited February 2020
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    Count Scotland out, we will soon be gone
    Hardly, Boris has ruled out indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon's dithering in response makes May look decisive
    In fairness, right now she has many other things to worry about.

    (Edit - although given the lack of attention to Jackson Carlaw’s election yesterday, her closest political rivals don’t appear to be one of them.)
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    edited February 2020
    If RLB doesn't want Starmer to win she should withdraw and endorse Nandy.

    I would love to see some head to head polling. I suspect that it would show Starmer v Nandy much closer than Starmer v RLB. And Nandy easily beating RLB.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    TGOHF666 said:
    That is not a flattering picture, her mouth/lipstick are sub optimal
    Blame Aardman Animation......
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    On that, this:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51512831
    Surely they could get it built by the end of the month?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,532

    If RLB doesn't want Starmer to win she should withdraw and endorse Nandy.

    I would love to see some head to head polling. I suspect that it would show Starmer v Nandy much closer than Starmer v RLB. And Nandy easily beating RLB.

    I cannot see it myself.

    Though RLB losing in a members poll is quite the litmus test of the end of Corbynism.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    HYUFD said:

    Boris won't be replaced as he is by far the best vote winner the Tories have got.

    If they replaced him in 2022 or 2023 it would be an act of desperation with a Labour led Government almost certain based on the polling at the forthcoming general election anyway

    That’s when we get the promise of a referendum on reintroducing the death penalty.

    Let's take all the money we spend on imprisoning people and give it to the NHS.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,111
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris won't be replaced as he is by far the best vote winner the Tories have got.

    If they replaced him in 2022 or 2023 it would be an act of desperation with a Labour led Government almost certain based on the polling at the forthcoming general election anyway

    That’s when we get the promise of a referendum on reintroducing the death penalty.

    Let's take all the money we spend on imprisoning people and give it to the NHS.
    Put that on the side of a bus, and use it to run over condemned prisoners. Serves a dual purpose.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2020
    FF43 said:

    Look to Berlusconi, not Trump, for Johnson's prototype. Berlusconi was a long drawn out disaster for Italy, but a very successful politician. Like Johnson, he was very good at telling the necessary people what they like to hear.

    As long as Brexit is merely crap (and Brexit is as much a metaphor as an actual process) and not obviously catastrophic. he will likely do all right.

    Steve Bannon, Trump's Dominic Cummings, saw Berlusconi as one of the greatest leaders of the last century and a model for Trump.

    Both Boris and Trump use the Berlusconi populist model and all 3 are similar in style, charismatic and despised by liberal elites.

    Berlusconi is still around but with his Forza Italia party now the junior partner in Salvini's right wing coalition which leads current Italian polls

    https://sputniknews.com/europe/201803041062211594-bannon-berlusconi-greatest-leader/
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,111
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    Look to Berlusconi, not Trump, for Johnson's prototype. Berlusconi was a long drawn out disaster for Italy, but a very successful politician. Like Johnson, he was very good at telling the necessary people what they like to hear.

    As long as Brexit is merely crap (and Brexit is as much a metaphor as an actual process) and not obviously catastrophic. he will likely do all right.

    Steve Bannon, Trump's Dominic Cummings, saw Berlusconi as one of the greatest leaders of the last century and a model for Trump.

    Both Boris and Trump use the Berlusconi populist model and all 3 are similar in style, charismatic and despised by liberal elites

    https://sputniknews.com/europe/201803041062211594-bannon-berlusconi-greatest-leader/
    So you’re expecting Johnson to face criminal prosecution at some point? That’s surprising.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    Elegantly written, like all David's pieces. The trick of changing leaders and asking the electorate to give the new team a chance is well-tried (Johnson, May, Brown, Major) and mostly works quite well, so I can see the Tories turning on Boris in year 4, but probably not earlier.

    Cummings is interesting, as he seems to have set out to portray himself as the Rasputin character - ruthless, charismatic, a lightning rod for criticism, and loyal to the leader. But what's his actual agenda? He seems to be from the anti-conservative (small c) wing of the right, who think that disruption and aggression are signs of dynamism and change - the opposite extreme to, say, John Major. This kind of restless spirit guarantees frequent controversy, although he'll sometimes have a real success as he bulldozes one or another opposition. It's a style that makes enemies very quickly, though, and I think he'll be gone by 2022, as a sacrifical goat when things get tough.

    I agree with this and his famous advert hinted he expected to be redundant within a year himself. I think he is just exasperated that so many things don't work, that the institutional resistance to change is so profound. He has no patience at all with our numerous checks and balances where everyone gets a say to the point all we do is talk.

    His attacks on that inertia and those vested interests will eventually be overwhelmed. It is inevitable. What we can hope for is some progress before he is.
  • Options
    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    Regarding Johnson's popularity, I know his net approvals are not good, but my feeling is that he is popular amongst the section of voters he needed for his landslide - WWC leavers up north.

    They like him. Or not so much him - they would probably hate him with a passion if they knew him - but "Boris". They have a soft spot for "Boris".
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    Perhaps if the Chinese build HS2, we can spy on their railway building techniques and get some tips.

    Certainly learn how to do infrastructure projects in time and on budget, unless they have to use the brown envelopes as well.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    Count Scotland out, we will soon be gone
    Hardly, Boris has ruled out indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon's dithering in response makes May look decisive
    YAWN
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2020
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris won't be replaced as he is by far the best vote winner the Tories have got.

    If they replaced him in 2022 or 2023 it would be an act of desperation with a Labour led Government almost certain based on the polling at the forthcoming general election anyway

    Johnson's strength is the Tories weakness. He has a personal popularity (albeit a very divisive one) that far exceeds his party, the opposite of Labour and Corbyn. The Tories cannot afford to be rid of him.
    Indeed and experience tells us when parties lose vote winning leaders e.g. Labour after Blair resigned or the Tories after Thatcher was toppled, they tend to go into opposition for a long time (even if the prospect of Kinnock as PM got Major 1 more term, once Labour got a more centrist leader the Tories were trounced in 1997)
  • Options
    It will be fun to watch people who have spent years making speeches about liberty, individual freedom and the wickedness of the state justify the expansion of the executive, the reduction of the ability to hold it to account and the diminution of the common law.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    Count Scotland out, we will soon be gone
    Hardly, Boris has ruled out indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon's dithering in response makes May look decisive
    In fairness, right now she has many other things to worry about.

    (Edit - although given the lack of attention to Jackson Carlaw’s election yesterday, her closest political rivals don’t appear to be one of them.)
    She would have had a good laugh yesterday at the state of the Tories, their 6000 branch office members voting in an absolute donkey. How many years till he comes up with a policy. The absolute balloon said he was going to be FM, delusion does not come into it.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    Look to Berlusconi, not Trump, for Johnson's prototype. Berlusconi was a long drawn out disaster for Italy, but a very successful politician. Like Johnson, he was very good at telling the necessary people what they like to hear.

    As long as Brexit is merely crap (and Brexit is as much a metaphor as an actual process) and not obviously catastrophic. he will likely do all right.

    Steve Bannon, Trump's Dominic Cummings, saw Berlusconi as one of the greatest leaders of the last century and a model for Trump.

    Both Boris and Trump use the Berlusconi populist model and all 3 are similar in style, charismatic and despised by liberal elites

    https://sputniknews.com/europe/201803041062211594-bannon-berlusconi-greatest-leader/
    So you’re expecting Johnson to face criminal prosecution at some point? That’s surprising.
    Trump was acquitted and Berlusconi remained PM despite numerous court cases against him
  • Options
    Mr. Observer, Britons will still be able to travel, work, and do business with the continent. It won't be the same as before, but if the political and media class had actually tried to take the country with them rather than press on with ever greater integration without asking the electorate (most notably with the reneged upon referendum on Lisbon) then we'd be in a much better state of affairs.

    The decision to leave the EU was taken democratically. The PM is a buffoon, but leaving the EU has a clear and valid mandate from the electorate.

    The seeds of our departure were sown by Blair and Brown over Lisbon, and perhaps by Major over Maastricht. And yet it still could've gone the other way if the EU had offered Cameron a scrap of red meat, or if the pro-EU campaign had managed something beyond a bus fixation and omens of apocalypse.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    Elegantly written, like all David's pieces. The trick of changing leaders and asking the electorate to give the new team a chance is well-tried (Johnson, May, Brown, Major) and mostly works quite well, so I can see the Tories turning on Boris in year 4, but probably not earlier.

    Cummings is interesting, as he seems to have set out to portray himself as the Rasputin character - ruthless, charismatic, a lightning rod for criticism, and loyal to the leader. But what's his actual agenda? He seems to be from the anti-conservative (small c) wing of the right, who think that disruption and aggression are signs of dynamism and change - the opposite extreme to, say, John Major. This kind of restless spirit guarantees frequent controversy, although he'll sometimes have a real success as he bulldozes one or another opposition. It's a style that makes enemies very quickly, though, and I think he'll be gone by 2022, as a sacrifical goat when things get tough.

    Look out for Rishi Sunak. Once Cummings is gone, which has a high probability because he has so many ways of being got rid off, Sunak will the one left standing. He will be in a very powerful position and Johnson will find it very difficult to dislodge him from it.
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    It will be fun to watch people who have spent years making speeches about liberty, individual freedom and the wickedness of the state justify the expansion of the executive, the reduction of the ability to hold it to account and the diminution of the common law.

    The left really need something better than “ooh you watch Boris will do something awful - just you wait and see. “

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:

    In short:

    Nothin' lasts forever
    And we both know hearts can change
    And it's hard to hold a candle
    In the cold November rain

    But, as St Augustine said, not yet. I think that Boris will survive longer than David does. I see him serving a full term and standing down in the next. The Conservative Party will be a very different beast by then.

    ? What's going to happen to David?
    Inevitably, as has happened with Brexit, some supporters of the party will think that this is no longer their party and they will be replaced by others enthusiastic about the new direction. All political parties that survive evolve continuously. Labour s in a very different place from the Ed Miliband years although it just might be heading back to where it was before.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,631
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Perhaps if the Chinese build HS2, we can spy on their railway building techniques and get some tips.

    We can steel their technology...
    We can let them iron out any problems.
    It will test our mettle.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,631
    TGOHF666 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I think a much more obvious explanation is that Cummings intends to renege on the WA. Braverman will sign the legal opinion put in front of her and the reining in of the courts will do the rest.

    Goodbye all those other trade deals then. No country is going to sign a deal with a country headed by a leader whose signature on an agreement is worthless.
    The remainery left have a poor prediction record when it comes to Boris and the EU.
    Ahem

    (looks at betting record)
  • Options
    geoffw said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

    No, it’s fact. This time next year UK citizens will no longer have the rights we have enjoyed as EU citizens. Beyond that, we’ll see what other rights we lose over the next few years.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,532
    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Perhaps if the Chinese build HS2, we can spy on their railway building techniques and get some tips.

    We can steel their technology...
    We can let them iron out any problems.
    It will test our mettle.
    Ore it could just be a sleeper project to railroad through Chinese influence.
  • Options

    Mr. Observer, Britons will still be able to travel, work, and do business with the continent. It won't be the same as before, but if the political and media class had actually tried to take the country with them rather than press on with ever greater integration without asking the electorate (most notably with the reneged upon referendum on Lisbon) then we'd be in a much better state of affairs.

    The decision to leave the EU was taken democratically. The PM is a buffoon, but leaving the EU has a clear and valid mandate from the electorate.

    The seeds of our departure were sown by Blair and Brown over Lisbon, and perhaps by Major over Maastricht. And yet it still could've gone the other way if the EU had offered Cameron a scrap of red meat, or if the pro-EU campaign had managed something beyond a bus fixation and omens of apocalypse.

    Yes, but we will - as a matter of fact - have fewer rights and less freedom of choice than we do now.

  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    On China it is troubling that the latest information suggests that over 1700 health staff have been infected with the virus and 6 have died. This raises real question marks to me about the efficacy of their steps to prevent spread of the disease and their quarantine arrangements.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    If RLB doesn't want Starmer to win she should withdraw and endorse Nandy.

    I would love to see some head to head polling. I suspect that it would show Starmer v Nandy much closer than Starmer v RLB. And Nandy easily beating RLB.

    Starmer's support is more Remain based, 49% of Labour members who were Remainers back him to only 40% who were Leavers.

    Nandy' s is more Leave based, 14% of Labour members who were Leavers back her to only 7% who were Remainers

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/01/18/keir-starmer-beats-rebecca-long-bailey-63-37-secon
  • Options
    TGOHF666 said:

    It will be fun to watch people who have spent years making speeches about liberty, individual freedom and the wickedness of the state justify the expansion of the executive, the reduction of the ability to hold it to account and the diminution of the common law.

    The left really need something better than “ooh you watch Boris will do something awful - just you wait and see. “

    I am merely observing that a lot of people are going to have very little problem with an all-powerful executive and a strong state as long as their side is in charge of it.

  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    Perhaps if the Chinese build HS2, we can spy on their railway building techniques and get some tips.

    Certainly learn how to do infrastructure projects in time and on budget, unless they have to use the brown envelopes as well.
    Streamlined planning and compulsory purchase orders must play a large part.

    In industry, much is made of China pinching IP but a significant factor often ignored is simply that American companies taught the Chinese how to set up and run factories and supply chains. Perhaps we can learn the railway equivalent from China.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,379
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Perhaps if the Chinese build HS2, we can spy on their railway building techniques and get some tips.

    We can steel their technology...
    We can let them iron out any problems.
    It will test our mettle.
    Ore it could just be a sleeper project to railroad through Chinese influence.
    All good points - but like Mill, we should take the utilitarian view.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2020
    I also see Ed Davey beats Layla Moran 66% to 34% in a leadership poll of LD members late last month from Yougov, not sure if it was in the media

    https://yougov.co.uk/(popup:search/Lib dem leadership)
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,532
    TGOHF666 said:

    It will be fun to watch people who have spent years making speeches about liberty, individual freedom and the wickedness of the state justify the expansion of the executive, the reduction of the ability to hold it to account and the diminution of the common law.

    The left really need something better than “ooh you watch Boris will do something awful - just you wait and see. “

    The Brexitisation of the Tories is complete, there is little anyone can do about them trampling over all the things that make Britain a pleasant place to live.

    As the Russian proverb goes: "my house is burning down, I may as well warm my hands"

  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    TGOHF666 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I think a much more obvious explanation is that Cummings intends to renege on the WA. Braverman will sign the legal opinion put in front of her and the reining in of the courts will do the rest.

    Goodbye all those other trade deals then. No country is going to sign a deal with a country headed by a leader whose signature on an agreement is worthless.
    The remainery left have a poor prediction record when it comes to Boris and the EU.
    Put my hand up. Can't cope with the madman theory. I assume prime ministers to want to be rational and develop workable solutions. I was blindsided by Johnson's NI protocol, when something at least workable was in place.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Perhaps if the Chinese build HS2, we can spy on their railway building techniques and get some tips.

    We can steel their technology...
    We can let them iron out any problems.
    It will test our mettle.
    Ore it could just be a sleeper project to railroad through Chinese influence.
    The Government ought to see the danger signals before giving this the green light.

    I would go so far as to No Platform anyone advocating this policy.

    Some might think it is just the ticket, but I can see lots of barriers.
  • Options

    Mr. Observer, Britons will still be able to travel, work, and do business with the continent. It won't be the same as before, but if the political and media class had actually tried to take the country with them rather than press on with ever greater integration without asking the electorate (most notably with the reneged upon referendum on Lisbon) then we'd be in a much better state of affairs.

    The decision to leave the EU was taken democratically. The PM is a buffoon, but leaving the EU has a clear and valid mandate from the electorate.

    The seeds of our departure were sown by Blair and Brown over Lisbon, and perhaps by Major over Maastricht. And yet it still could've gone the other way if the EU had offered Cameron a scrap of red meat, or if the pro-EU campaign had managed something beyond a bus fixation and omens of apocalypse.

    Lisbon was a sideshow. Look instead to the Single European Act which set in motion the deep integration of the EU.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,379

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Perhaps if the Chinese build HS2, we can spy on their railway building techniques and get some tips.

    We can steel their technology...
    We can let them iron out any problems.
    Let's nickel their ideas.....
    They are not all unalloyed successes.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,532
    DavidL said:

    On China it is troubling that the latest information suggests that over 1700 health staff have been infected with the virus and 6 have died. This raises real question marks to me about the efficacy of their steps to prevent spread of the disease and their quarantine arrangements.

    Yes, it certainly is something of concern.

    The overnight figures did show just 230 new cases outside Hubei.

    First death outside Asia reported, in France.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    BBC:

    "For many schools this is the beginning of the half term and disruption will be keenly felt by families setting off for skiing breaks, the Independent's travel editor Simon Calder points out."

    So Labour can say that the storm is affecting 'our people'.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.
  • Options
    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913

    And ... it's another moan

    Johnson is rock solid. He did what no Conservative leader has done since Margaret Thatcher 40 years ago: won a thumping majority.

    Of course it will ebb. But that's no more clever than saying we're all going to die. Eventually.

    I'm sorry my fellow liberals are showing themselves to be so curmudgeonly about it.

    The "Johnson is wildly popular" school of thought espoused by yourself Marquee Mark and Big G conveniently ignores the satisfaction ratings.

    +3 (47-44) is very poor satisfaction rating for someone who has just won a big majority and is still very much in his honeymoon period. It is nothing like the +65 (72-7) satisfaction rating Blair got at the same time after his 1997 victory.

    Johnson is "popular" only when compared to the other option of Corbyn. That should not be confused with genuine popularilty. Those satisfaction ratings will be in negative territory before long.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.

    You’re forgetting that reined in judiciary.

  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:



    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    I would say the effect of an unworkable policy on a fractured community are somewhat unpredictable. I could see NI de facto become part of Ireland without a border poll. The small but increasing non-aligned section seems to be breaking for Irish identity over British and the unionists may end up being demoralised by discovering the false Johnsonian unionists are actually just English nationalists.

    But other less benign outcomes are definitely possible.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
    Though Brown defended a majority of 66 in 2010 and lost it
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the person responsible for the former, Julian Smith, who in his short tenure as NI impressed politicians on both sides of the divide in NI and in the Republic (no mean feat), was sacked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.
    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:



    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    I would say the effect of an unworkable policy on a fractured community are somewhat unpredictable. I could see NI de facto become part of Ireland without a border poll. The small but increasing non-aligned section seems to be breaking for Irish identity over British and the unionists may end up being demoralised by discovering the false Johnsonian unionists are actually just English nationalists.

    But other less benign outcomes are definitely possible.
    Either you are technically in a country or not and while Boris is PM there will be no border poll, the Tory majority in the Commons will ensure that
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    The principle seems obvious. There is a big assumption there that Johnson will actually deliver on this stuff. Early signs are not particularly indicative of this. People might just vote on ideological grounds, just as they did two months ago.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
    Though Brown defended a majority of 66 in 2010 and lost it
    I should have clarified PMs who win big majorities...
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the perscked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.
    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    Currently, that decision could be subject to judicial review. Soon it won’t be.

  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:



    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    No, the Act provides that in certain circs he *shall* hold a poll, whether he likes it or not.

    What satisfaction do you derive from this oafish, ill-informed absolutism?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the perscked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First yway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.
    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    Currently, that decision could be subject to judicial review. Soon it won’t be.

    Correct, the Tory majority in the Commons will amend the NI Act 1998 to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final and not open to judicial review
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    It is not matter of fact yet, it is still speculation (albeit notwithout bassi). But it is a worry that should not be dismissed.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    https://tinyurl.com/s54nlvu

    Europe has its first coronavirus fatality as a Chinese tourist in France has died from the disease, the country’s health minister confirmed.

    The elderly Chinese national was among 11 confirmed coronavirus cases in France, with their death announced by the French health minister, Agnès Buzyn, on Saturday.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:



    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    No, the Act provides that in certain circs he *shall* hold a poll, whether he likes it or not.

    What satisfaction do you derive from this oafish, ill-informed absolutism?
    Only in the circumstances where it looks like there will be a vote to leave the UK and with more Unionist votes than Nationalist votes in NI at the general election currently that is not the case.

    The NI Act is also likely to be amended to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final whatever your distaste for your own country may say
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    TGOHF666 said:

    It will be fun to watch people who have spent years making speeches about liberty, individual freedom and the wickedness of the state justify the expansion of the executive, the reduction of the ability to hold it to account and the diminution of the common law.

    The left really need something better than “ooh you watch Boris will do something awful - just you wait and see. “

    I am merely observing that a lot of people are going to have very little problem with an all-powerful executive and a strong state as long as their side is in charge of it.

    Unfortunately so. Which wouldn't be so much of a problem if the principle of that power and strength had not been portrayed as a negative previously. Even someone like Guido occasionally consistent (oxymoron notwithstanding) in criticising Tories being about expanding executive (though less concerned about things like holding it to account).
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,573
    edited February 2020
    A very good article David, but is it inevitable that what you predict will occur. I'm sure it is BUT:

    There does seem to be a trend to remove balancing controls. Brexit removes the ECJ and some people on the right on here, whom one would not consider extremist, are relishing Boris limiting the powers of the courts and want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR.

    We are many rungs down from Trump who is a few down from Putin but one can see a trend that must be avoided as Putin is not many rungs down from the next stage of dictatorship.

    The courts provide a useful defence against an overbearing state whether of the right or left or just the incompetent.

    The ECJ has proved very useful in 2 areas I have been involved in where the UK has failed to act originally (although had no objection to the decisions made) and I am wondering what judgements the ECJ has made that those that object to it object to.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the perscked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First yway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.
    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    Currently, that decision could be subject to judicial review. Soon it won’t be.

    Correct, the Tory majority in the Commons will amend the NI Act 1998 to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final and not open to judicial review

    Exactly. And thus the people of Northern Ireland will become less free than they are today.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    OllyT said:

    Those satisfaction ratings will be in negative territory before long.

    The wish is father to the thought.

    At the moment, people who really hate Boris are trying to fit events to match the dire warnings before he was elected leader, then before he got an 80-seat majority. The PM of "bum boys" and "piccaninnies". It must be really annoying that he hasn't said a word out of place.

    Sure, there was a bit of manufactured outrage when he said that realistically the American wouldn't be returning to face death by dangerous driving charges. But then, unlike them, he would have been briefed that she was a CIA agent.

    Boris is determined to leave the UK a markedly better place than he inherited. There is every chance he will succeed in that.

  • Options
    OllyT said:

    And ... it's another moan

    Johnson is rock solid. He did what no Conservative leader has done since Margaret Thatcher 40 years ago: won a thumping majority.

    Of course it will ebb. But that's no more clever than saying we're all going to die. Eventually.

    I'm sorry my fellow liberals are showing themselves to be so curmudgeonly about it.

    The "Johnson is wildly popular" school of thought espoused by yourself Marquee Mark and Big G conveniently ignores the satisfaction ratings.

    +3 (47-44) is very poor satisfaction rating for someone who has just won a big majority and is still very much in his honeymoon period. It is nothing like the +65 (72-7) satisfaction rating Blair got at the same time after his 1997 victory.

    Johnson is "popular" only when compared to the other option of Corbyn. That should not be confused with genuine popularilty. Those satisfaction ratings will be in negative territory before long.
    Boris is at the height of his power and is able to take unpopular decisions and do as he wants.

    Your comment that his ratings will be negative before long depends on whether he succeeds in his policies especially on HS2 and infrastructure. The huge boost in well paid jobs and increased tax revenue from such enormous projects together with billions of private investment in Birmingham and other parts of the northern extensions to HS2 and a perceived investment in the buses will determine not only Boris's popularity but also his governments
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331
    HYUFD said:

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
    Though Brown defended a majority of 66 in 2010 and lost it
    Yes but Brown was a weirdo totally unsuited to being Prime Minister..
  • Options
    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    I don't understand why is Bernie proposing to ban people to buy private healthcare if they want it? Why?!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited February 2020

    OllyT said:

    And ... it's another moan

    Johnson is rock solid. He did what no Conservative leader has done since Margaret Thatcher 40 years ago: won a thumping majority.

    Of course it will ebb. But that's no more clever than saying we're all going to die. Eventually.

    I'm sorry my fellow liberals are showing themselves to be so curmudgeonly about it.

    The "Johnson is wildly popular" school of thought espoused by yourself Marquee Mark and Big G conveniently ignores the satisfaction ratings.

    +3 (47-44) is very poor satisfaction rating for someone who has just won a big majority and is still very much in his honeymoon period. It is nothing like the +65 (72-7) satisfaction rating Blair got at the same time after his 1997 victory.

    Johnson is "popular" only when compared to the other option of Corbyn. That should not be confused with genuine popularilty. Those satisfaction ratings will be in negative territory before long.
    Boris is at the height of his power and is able to take unpopular decisions and do as he wants.

    Your comment that his ratings will be negative before long depends on whether he succeeds in his policies especially on HS2 and infrastructure. The huge boost in well paid jobs and increased tax revenue from such enormous projects together with billions of private investment in Birmingham and other parts of the northern extensions to HS2 and a perceived investment in the buses will determine not only Boris's popularity but also his governments
    I also believe Boris is determined to own the green industrial revolution. Labour are going to be flailing in his wake on this. If he grasps it, then his record on the environment and climate change will open him up to additional support from a tranche of voters previously thought out of range.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    nunu2 said:

    I don't understand why is Bernie proposing to ban people to buy private healthcare if they want it? Why?!

    Because he has backed Trump to be re-elected?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924

    HYUFD said:

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
    Though Brown defended a majority of 66 in 2010 and lost it
    Yes but Brown was a weirdo totally unsuited to being Prime Minister..
    Brown was unlucky in that Blair held on too long. Blair should have gone over Iraq and Brown led Labour into the 2005 election.
  • Options

    geoffw said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

    No, it’s fact. This time next year UK citizens will no longer have the rights we have enjoyed as EU citizens. Beyond that, we’ll see what other rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the perscked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First yway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.
    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    Currently, that decision could be subject to judicial review. Soon it won’t be.

    Correct, the Tory majority in the Commons will amend the NI Act 1998 to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final and not open to judicial review

    Exactly. And thus the people of Northern Ireland will become less free than they are today.

    Nonsense.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,532

    OllyT said:

    And ... it's another moan

    Johnson is rock solid. He did what no Conservative leader has done since Margaret Thatcher 40 years ago: won a thumping majority.

    Of course it will ebb. But that's no more clever than saying we're all going to die. Eventually.

    I'm sorry my fellow liberals are showing themselves to be so curmudgeonly about it.

    The "Johnson is wildly popular" school of thought espoused by yourself Marquee Mark and Big G conveniently ignores the satisfaction ratings.

    +3 (47-44) is very poor satisfaction rating for someone who has just won a big majority and is still very much in his honeymoon period. It is nothing like the +65 (72-7) satisfaction rating Blair got at the same time after his 1997 victory.

    Johnson is "popular" only when compared to the other option of Corbyn. That should not be confused with genuine popularilty. Those satisfaction ratings will be in negative territory before long.
    Boris is at the height of his power and is able to take unpopular decisions and do as he wants.

    Your comment that his ratings will be negative before long depends on whether he succeeds in his policies especially on HS2 and infrastructure. The huge boost in well paid jobs and increased tax revenue from such enormous projects together with billions of private investment in Birmingham and other parts of the northern extensions to HS2 and a perceived investment in the buses will determine not only Boris's popularity but also his governments
    If spending like a drunken sailor guaranteed election success, Gordon Brown would be starting his third term.
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:



    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    I would say the effect of an unworkable policy on a fractured community are somewhat unpredictable. I could see NI de facto become part of Ireland without a border poll.
    Barking. Have a lie down.
  • Options

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.
  • Options

    geoffw said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

    No, it’s fact. This time next year UK citizens will no longer have the rights we have enjoyed as EU citizens. Beyond that, we’ll see what other rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
    Did you have a vote on becoming a UK citizen? The vast majority of us have citizenship forced on us at birth without a vote or choice.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    HYUFD said:

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
    Though Brown defended a majority of 66 in 2010 and lost it
    Yes but Brown was a weirdo totally unsuited to being Prime Minister..
    Brown was unlucky in that Blair held on too long. Blair should have gone over Iraq and Brown led Labour into the 2005 election.
    But the voters had already seen Brown was a weirdo totally unsuited to being Prime Minister.

    Equally, Michael Howard was felt a weirdo of the night, totally unsuited to being Prime Minister.

    2005 with Brown as PM could have been a great election for Charles Kennedy's LibDems. Minority govt. with the LibDems north of 100 seats anybody?
  • Options

    geoffw said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

    No, it’s fact. This time next year UK citizens will no longer have the rights we have enjoyed as EU citizens. Beyond that, we’ll see what other rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
    Did you have a vote on becoming a UK citizen? The vast majority of us have citizenship forced on us at birth without a vote or choice.
    That's an absolutely absurd argument.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2020
    nunu2 said:

    I don't understand why is Bernie proposing to ban people to buy private healthcare if they want it? Why?!

    He is a socialist
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913

    OllyT said:

    Those satisfaction ratings will be in negative territory before long.

    The wish is father to the thought.

    At the moment, people who really hate Boris are trying to fit events to match the dire warnings before he was elected leader, then before he got an 80-seat majority. The PM of "bum boys" and "piccaninnies". It must be really annoying that he hasn't said a word out of place.

    Sure, there was a bit of manufactured outrage when he said that realistically the American wouldn't be returning to face death by dangerous driving charges. But then, unlike them, he would have been briefed that she was a CIA agent.

    Boris is determined to leave the UK a markedly better place than he inherited. There is every chance he will succeed in that.

    Still ignoring the satisfaction ratings I see. Would you care to have a side bet as to whether Johnson's satisfaction ratings are negative by the end of this year?

    How else do you propose to measure whether he leaves the country in a markedly better place than by his satisfaction ratings?

    At the height of his success he's not even in the same league as Blair was after his big win.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:



    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    No, the Act provides that in certain circs he *shall* hold a poll, whether he likes it or not.

    What satisfaction do you derive from this oafish, ill-informed absolutism?
    Only in the circumstances where it looks like there will be a vote to leave the UK and with more Unionist votes than Nationalist votes in NI at the general election currently that is not the case.

    The NI Act is also likely to be amended to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final whatever your distaste for your own country may say
    You don't know what my own country is, nor my feelings about it.

    Do you not think your proposed amendment would be an abrogation of the GFA? What do you think the consequences of that might be?

    Don't tell me, let me guess: you think Boris Johnson will legislate that it has no consequences, with his greatbig majority.
  • Options

    geoffw said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

    No, it’s fact. This time next year UK citizens will no longer have the rights we have enjoyed as EU citizens. Beyond that, we’ll see what other rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
    Did you have a vote on becoming a UK citizen? The vast majority of us have citizenship forced on us at birth without a vote or choice.
    That's an absolutely absurd argument.
    Its not an argument, its a fact.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    David’s outline is possible. It looks more likely to me, however, that Britain is in for years of poor government caused by bad decision-making through over-centralisation, with the failures being blamed on outside forces. Because loyalty is prized more than competence and any signs that a minister is building an independent power base or understands his subject will be summarily dealt with, Boris Johnson will retain effective power even as the country weakens.

    The government has achieved two things so far: the resumption of power-sharing at Stormont and the WA. The fact that the perscked tells other Ministers that if they are too successful or stand up for their briefs they are for the chop.

    This is not the way to get good governance. Or, indeed, long-term loyalty.

    Still, Julian is best out of it. Imagine having to be in charge when Boris’s lies about the border hit reality.
    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements t could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First yway
    An NI border poll is not something that the Government is free to grant or withhold. The circumstances under which one should be held are set out in the Good Friday Agreement.
    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    Currently, that decision could be subject to judicial review. Soon it won’t be.

    Correct, the Tory majority in the Commons will amend the NI Act 1998 to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final and not open to judicial review

    Exactly. And thus the people of Northern Ireland will become less free than they are today.

    No, still free just Nat bullying ignored
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
    Though Brown defended a majority of 66 in 2010 and lost it
    Yes but Brown was a weirdo totally unsuited to being Prime Minister..
    Even Blair might have lost his majority to Cameron in 2010 but been more likely to do a deal with Clegg to retain power
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    edited February 2020
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:



    A rational, and just about thinkable, conclusion from the Irish border stuff, and the apparent impossibility of squaring the circle of agreements and rhetoric, is that the government has quietly decided that the price of a practicable Brexit is Irish reunification. Personally I think that would be an excellent outcome, as a union of E, W and S makes much more sense than the current UK configuration. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong!?!........

    I doubt the NI Protocol is workable, even if you accept ECJ oversight etc. Which, I suspect, is why the EU previously accepted May's UK customs area plan. I don't think Irish Unification was part of Boris' plan but it may happen anyway, in the absence of anything better. NI leaving the Union will definitely play into the Scotland independence question.
    It won't, for starters Northern Ireland has a Unionist First Minister unlike Scotland, second Northern Ireland is staying in a customs union and most of the single market so is little affected by Brexit and third Brandon Lewis will follow Boris' bidding and ignore Sinn Fein demands for a border poll and 4th it looks like Sinn Fein will be excluded from Government in the Republic of Ireland by FF and FG and SF anyway
    I would say the effect of an unworkable policy on a fractured community are somewhat unpredictable. I could see NI de facto become part of Ireland without a border poll. The small but increasing non-aligned section seems to be breaking for Irish identity over British and the unionists may end up being demoralised by discovering the false Johnsonian unionists are actually just English nationalists.

    But other less benign outcomes are definitely possible.
    Either you are technically in a country or not and while Boris is PM there will be no border poll, the Tory majority in the Commons will ensure that
    What I mean is that if the NI economy becomes integrated into the Republic because that border effectively doesn't exist while the one with the rUK is a hard one and at the same time most people in Northern Ireland see themselves as Irish before British, and in fact are almost all Irish passport holders, then the British part of their existence comes down in practice to tedious border checks as they cross the sea and maybe some continuance of subsidies.

    You don't need a Border poll to achieve that, while Johnson's NI protocol encourages it.
  • Options
    In amongst the plethora of also-rans, Labourites and bitter europhiles getting their digs in on here this morning David's central conclusion is a fascinating one: Boris gone by 2022 or 2023.

    This is very possible. His central asset to the Tory party is as a vote winner, and the Tory party now has its solid majority.

    Once he becomes an electoral liability and his governance starts to be ineffective (remembering the most controversial sting of the permanent UK-EU FTA will probably be out the way by then) then it's very tempting and easy for another Tory to depose him.

    They'd get an oven-ready majority Government and 2-2.5 years to make their mark before the next General Election.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581

    geoffw said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

    No, it’s fact. This time next year UK citizens will no longer have the rights we have enjoyed as EU citizens. Beyond that, we’ll see what other rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
    Did you have a vote on becoming a UK citizen? The vast majority of us have citizenship forced on us at birth without a vote or choice.
    Time for a 3,000 word essay on social contract theory?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    nunu2 said:

    I don't understand why is Bernie proposing to ban people to buy private healthcare if they want it? Why?!

    I agree - it seems the obvious attack point. It's a bit like proposing the abolition of BUPA so we all focus on the NHS - a bad hill to die on. Much better to make the public health provision so good that people don't bother with private insurance. It was IIRC starting to wither before 2010 in Britain for that very reason as NHS waiting lists (probably the main driver of private insurance) were getting acceptably short.

    Casino Royale giving the impression of "I'll fight every man in the house" this morning!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:



    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    No, the Act provides that in certain circs he *shall* hold a poll, whether he likes it or not.

    What satisfaction do you derive from this oafish, ill-informed absolutism?
    Only in the circumstances where it looks like there will be a vote to leave the UK and with more Unionist votes than Nationalist votes in NI at the general election currently that is not the case.

    The NI Act is also likely to be amended to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final whatever your distaste for your own country may say
    You don't know what my own country is, nor my feelings about it.

    Do you not think your proposed amendment would be an abrogation of the GFA? What do you think the consequences of that might be?

    Don't tell me, let me guess: you think Boris Johnson will legislate that it has no consequences, with his greatbig majority.
    Westminster is sovereign and can do what it likes once one party has a majority, the GFA is supposed to represent Unionists not just Nats anyway
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913

    OllyT said:

    And ... it's another moan

    Johnson is rock solid. He did what no Conservative leader has done since Margaret Thatcher 40 years ago: won a thumping majority.

    Of course it will ebb. But that's no more clever than saying we're all going to die. Eventually.

    I'm sorry my fellow liberals are showing themselves to be so curmudgeonly about it.

    The "Johnson is wildly popular" school of thought espoused by yourself Marquee Mark and Big G conveniently ignores the satisfaction ratings.

    +3 (47-44) is very poor satisfaction rating for someone who has just won a big majority and is still very much in his honeymoon period. It is nothing like the +65 (72-7) satisfaction rating Blair got at the same time after his 1997 victory.

    Johnson is "popular" only when compared to the other option of Corbyn. That should not be confused with genuine popularilty. Those satisfaction ratings will be in negative territory before long.
    Boris is at the height of his power and is able to take unpopular decisions and do as he wants.

    Your comment that his ratings will be negative before long depends on whether he succeeds in his policies especially on HS2 and infrastructure. The huge boost in well paid jobs and increased tax revenue from such enormous projects together with billions of private investment in Birmingham and other parts of the northern extensions to HS2 and a perceived investment in the buses will determine not only Boris's popularity but also his governments
    I am simply saying that people such as your good self are equating winning a big parliamentary majority with him being hugely popular.

    I am pointing out that he isn't and the satisfaction ratings support that. He polled only a couple of points more than May and our electoral system did the rest.

    44% are already dissatisfied with him, only 7% were dissatisfied with Blair at the same point.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,111

    HYUFD said:

    Banterman said:

    All that really matters are the outcomes Boris delivers. That's all the general public care about. Outside of the bubble, the public have no idea of how government or the legal system work.

    All they really want is better healthcare, schools, roads, trains, less taxes and more money in their pockets. Boris delivers, he wins.

    This is a good point, most people are very confused if told that secretaries are more important in govt than ministers.

    PMs with big majorities very rarely get kicked out within 2/3 years. I could easily see Cummings being kicked out in 2022/2023 and Johnson re-inventing himself again as something shiny and new, but would be very surprised if he is not PM going into the next election.
    Though Brown defended a majority of 66 in 2010 and lost it
    Yes but Brown was a weirdo totally unsuited to being Prime Minister..
    Well, thank goodness that charge could not possibly be levelled at the current encumbrance, er, incumbent of No. 10.

    Just been out to do my shopping. So far, weather is not as bad as last Sunday. Still not brilliant. Very windy.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901

    geoffw said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    You mean it is a matter of (your) conjecture ...

    No, it’s fact. This time next year UK citizens will no longer have the rights we have enjoyed as EU citizens. Beyond that, we’ll see what other rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
    My word, it’s like listening to someone, who got knocked back by a girl he fancied, standing outside the church, telling anyone who will listen that the bride and groom are less free than they were yesterday, as she celebrates the happiest day of her life
  • Options
    Mr. T, slightly unfair comparison as Blair came in after 18 years of Conservative government, whereas Johnson's election victory followed 9 (or 4) years of his own party being in office.
This discussion has been closed.