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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2020: Governor Cuomo of New York being talked up for the nom

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited March 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2020: Governor Cuomo of New York being talked up for the nomination even at this late stage?

Within the last hour I got an email from someone whose judgement on US politics that I trust raising the possibility of Andrew Cuomo, Governor of New York, being the Democratic nominee. He wrote:

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985
    I don't want to do a Rogerdamus...

    But no.
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    No chance. If Biden stands aside it will be for his VP. In all likelihood that is Harris.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,138
    I see Hillary has moved back into second place for Dem nominee on Betfair. Is there some sort of glitch in the website?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    DougSeal said:

    I see Hillary has moved back into second place for Dem nominee on Betfair. Is there some sort of glitch in the website?

    No, she'll be there till the end of time I think.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited March 2020
    So while scores of people die every day in the state over the next few months the governor of New York is going to gallivant off on a presidential campaign?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    Pulpstar said:

    DougSeal said:

    I see Hillary has moved back into second place for Dem nominee on Betfair. Is there some sort of glitch in the website?

    No, she'll be there till the end of time ....
    Well 2024, in all likelihood....
  • Options
    James_MJames_M Posts: 48
    Just wishing my best to @GideonWise and his family.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,945
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't want to do a Rogerdamus...

    But no.

    Has anyone heard from Roger lately?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,057
    Trump just launched into his "I didn't have to run for President" routine while talking about the businesses that are in trouble at the moment.
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,452
    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    The election will almost certainly happen. The US constitution makes it incredibly difficult to change the date. Indeed, elections carried on throughout WII and the civil war, both of which were greater national crises. Of course it is possible (in the sense that a constitutional amendment could, in theory, be rushed through) but I think it very unlikely, for two reasons. The first is logistics. The second is pure partisan considerations - the Democrats want Trump out and they won’t want to give him a longer term of office.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't want to do a Rogerdamus...

    But no.

    Has anyone heard from Roger lately?
    I had exactly the same thought. He's been a lot quieter during the Corbyn years - maybe he'll emerge again when Starmer takes over
  • Options
    ABZABZ Posts: 441
    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    There's no evidence, at present, that the second wave will be worse - at least we should be better prepared / equipped (more ventilators / tests / treatments etc.)

    Nevertheless, sadly the situation in America likely will be worse than any other country. The lack of preparation is truly staggering. In particular, the continuation of domestic travel in the US is going to amplify the situation tremendously unfortunately.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited March 2020
    Has anybody actually watched Cuomo, he is very Trumpian....just a bit brighter.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    It has to be in doubt. Not sure what the constitution allows, delay or purely the electoral college?
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,373
    Biden does not seem to be generating much enthusiasm, even now he is ahead in the final furlong. Cuomo might be risky as a late replacement as he already has a Corona-related day job, and it would be a single issue campaign where Trump can change the rules by tweeting a new policy.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2020
    Surreal, unsettling times, even for those of us fortunate enough to be able to sit it out in beautiful countryside and with plenty of space, unlike many people stuck in flats or small urban houses, especially with children. Even worse for elderly people on their own.

    New York's Metropolitan Opera is making one performance per day from its archive available online for free, each one from 7.30pm New York time for 23 hours, i.e from 11.30pm to 10.30pm the next day UK time. Tonight we watched the 2009 Lucia di Lammermoor, which was absolutely superb, a stunning production. A very welcome respite from the gloom.
  • Options
    Nandos is down, I repeat Nandos is down. Not even delivering.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    It’s part of being a New Yorker to hate on Cuomo, even among us Democrats, but wow, has he stepped up to the plate on this. He makes Trump look like the dithering blowhard he is.

    Cuomo might be a mendacious, vindictive asshole, but he’s the mendacious, vindictive asshole New York needs right now, and maybe America too.
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,452
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    The election will almost certainly happen. The US constitution makes it incredibly difficult to change the date. Indeed, elections carried on throughout WII and the civil war, both of which were greater national crises. Of course it is possible (in the sense that a constitutional amendment could, in theory, be rushed through) but I think it very unlikely, for two reasons. The first is logistics. The second is pure partisan considerations - the Democrats want Trump out and they won’t want to give him a longer term of office.
    Yes I agree with that. What I meant by ‘as we understand it’ was: personal voting in booths may not happen, it will all be online or postal (if the virus is still raging)

    This is bleak but interesting, and accords with my corona rule of thumb, which is: imagine a reasonable worst case scenario, because that is what will happen. It’s been pretty good so far.

    https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-deaths-scenarios-a452dd00-81eb-4683-9050-83a93e40b538.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100
    It would be very interesting if we saw different voting methods - it could totally change how democracy is conducted.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Nandos is down, I repeat Nandos is down. Not even delivering.

    Is this when the chavs start to riot?
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Nandos is down, I repeat Nandos is down. Not even delivering.

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Nandos is down, I repeat Nandos is down. Not even delivering.

    Is this when the chavs start to riot?
    Oii :-)
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    edited March 2020
    There'll be an election. Whether Trump or Biden are the challengers is perhaps more uncertain than in a 'normal' election year.
    Covid-19 poses the greatest threat to their respective nominations and potential presidency/2nd term. I mean quite literally here.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,373
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Jonathan said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    It has to be in doubt. Not sure what the constitution allows, delay or purely the electoral college?
    I posted the other day about this. If need be, the EC can be appointed by the states, it doesn’t actually have to be elected. That would favour Trump as the GOP controls state legislatures that could appoint > 270 Electors, but some have Democratic governors that might be able to veto such.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    James_M said:

    Just wishing my best to @GideonWise and his family.

    Just looked back at the last thread. Not good.
    My best wishes, too.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    edited March 2020
    If the Italian figures continue to drop tomorrow, we may be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. And Germany continues to defy the odds with very low fatality numbers.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    @GideonWise best wishes for you and your family.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    Pulpstar said:

    There'll be an election. Whether Trump or Biden are the challengers is perhaps more uncertain than in a 'normal' election year.
    Covid-19 poses the greatest threat to their respective nominations and potential presidency/2nd term. I mean quite literally here.

    I say again, Kamala Harris is 250/1 for POTUS.

  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,373

    Nandos is down, I repeat Nandos is down. Not even delivering.

    McDonalds and Nandos both. The government's view that restaurants can survive on takeaway and delivery services might be over-optimistic.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,945

    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't want to do a Rogerdamus...

    But no.

    Has anyone heard from Roger lately?
    I had exactly the same thought. He's been a lot quieter during the Corbyn years - maybe he'll emerge again when Starmer takes over
    Here's hoping so.

    This is all starting to feel very real now people on PB are reporting symptoms.

    My father, who is nearing 70, is still happily going to his office daily. Can't be talked out of it.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Nandos is down, I repeat Nandos is down. Not even delivering.

    McDonalds and Nandos both. The government's view that restaurants can survive on takeaway and delivery services might be over-optimistic.
    Might be quite good for the nations waist-lines though.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    The election will almost certainly happen. The US constitution makes it incredibly difficult to change the date. Indeed, elections carried on throughout WII and the civil war, both of which were greater national crises. Of course it is possible (in the sense that a constitutional amendment could, in theory, be rushed through) but I think it very unlikely, for two reasons. The first is logistics. The second is pure partisan considerations - the Democrats want Trump out and they won’t want to give him a longer term of office.
    Yes I agree with that. What I meant by ‘as we understand it’ was: personal voting in booths may not happen, it will all be online or postal (if the virus is still raging)

    This is bleak but interesting, and accords with my corona rule of thumb, which is: imagine a reasonable worst case scenario, because that is what will happen. It’s been pretty good so far.

    https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-deaths-scenarios-a452dd00-81eb-4683-9050-83a93e40b538.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100
    That's not a very insightful piece.

    The US is an absolute mess as far as CV-19 response goes. The national government and the states were extremely slow to respond to the problems. The evidence is that New York is going to be worse than Italy.

    And while some places (like California and New York) have shut down, they are the exception, not the rule.

    Large parts of the US are still in denial about the seriousness of this. In New Hampshire, a Republican lawmaker is suing the Republican Governor over the very minor restrictions he'd put in place.

    But the good news is that Europe is getting a grip on this.

    And in a week or two, the US will finally get the message.

    Death rates in the US will be significantly worse than Europe. The crisis will be worse because of poor public health provision and poor leadership. But the US will have the advantage of getting to watch Europe get better. They will do the right thing, once they have exhausted the alternatives.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    edited March 2020
    Can't help thinking this has been game planned. A load of uncaring twats carry on as if nothing has happened, forcing Johnson to introduce massive lockdown.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1241851522134224896
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985
    Andy_JS said:

    If the Italian figures continue to drop tomorrow, we may be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. And Germany continues to defy the odds with very low fatality numbers.

    Germany is just testing pre- and a-symptomatic people, meaning they are catching a lot of very mild cases. And, one would hope, supporting people before they require hospitalisation.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Can't help thinking this has been game planned. A load of uncaring twats carry on as if nothing has happened, forcing Johnson to introduce massive lockdown.

    twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1241851522134224896

    If that's the case, he better get a move on....
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,373
    rcs1000 said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    The election will almost certainly happen. The US constitution makes it incredibly difficult to change the date. Indeed, elections carried on throughout WII and the civil war, both of which were greater national crises. Of course it is possible (in the sense that a constitutional amendment could, in theory, be rushed through) but I think it very unlikely, for two reasons. The first is logistics. The second is pure partisan considerations - the Democrats want Trump out and they won’t want to give him a longer term of office.
    Yes I agree with that. What I meant by ‘as we understand it’ was: personal voting in booths may not happen, it will all be online or postal (if the virus is still raging)

    This is bleak but interesting, and accords with my corona rule of thumb, which is: imagine a reasonable worst case scenario, because that is what will happen. It’s been pretty good so far.

    https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-deaths-scenarios-a452dd00-81eb-4683-9050-83a93e40b538.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100
    That's not a very insightful piece.

    The US is an absolute mess as far as CV-19 response goes. The national government and the states were extremely slow to respond to the problems. The evidence is that New York is going to be worse than Italy.

    And while some places (like California and New York) have shut down, they are the exception, not the rule.

    Large parts of the US are still in denial about the seriousness of this. In New Hampshire, a Republican lawmaker is suing the Republican Governor over the very minor restrictions he'd put in place.

    But the good news is that Europe is getting a grip on this.

    And in a week or two, the US will finally get the message.

    Death rates in the US will be significantly worse than Europe. The crisis will be worse because of poor public health provision and poor leadership. But the US will have the advantage of getting to watch Europe get better. They will do the right thing, once they have exhausted the alternatives.
    America also can throw huge resources at the problem: science; computing; manufacturing.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Mr Corbyn said: 'I'm going to be very busy doing campaigning work on the economy, human rights and environmental issues – I am not disappearing from anywhere.'

    Asked if he had his eye on a Shadow Cabinet post, he replied: 'Well, I have always spent my life trying to deal with issues of human rights and justice around the world, and that is something - whether I have a position or not is not important.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8140765/Jeremy-Corbyn-wants-frontbench-role.html
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985
    rpjs said:

    Jonathan said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    It has to be in doubt. Not sure what the constitution allows, delay or purely the electoral college?
    I posted the other day about this. If need be, the EC can be appointed by the states, it doesn’t actually have to be elected. That would favour Trump as the GOP controls state legislatures that could appoint > 270 Electors, but some have Democratic governors that might be able to veto such.
    That might not go down so well in certain parts of the country.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985

    rcs1000 said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    The election will almost certainly happen. The US constitution makes it incredibly difficult to change the date. Indeed, elections carried on throughout WII and the civil war, both of which were greater national crises. Of course it is possible (in the sense that a constitutional amendment could, in theory, be rushed through) but I think it very unlikely, for two reasons. The first is logistics. The second is pure partisan considerations - the Democrats want Trump out and they won’t want to give him a longer term of office.
    Yes I agree with that. What I meant by ‘as we understand it’ was: personal voting in booths may not happen, it will all be online or postal (if the virus is still raging)

    This is bleak but interesting, and accords with my corona rule of thumb, which is: imagine a reasonable worst case scenario, because that is what will happen. It’s been pretty good so far.

    https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-deaths-scenarios-a452dd00-81eb-4683-9050-83a93e40b538.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100
    That's not a very insightful piece.

    The US is an absolute mess as far as CV-19 response goes. The national government and the states were extremely slow to respond to the problems. The evidence is that New York is going to be worse than Italy.

    And while some places (like California and New York) have shut down, they are the exception, not the rule.

    Large parts of the US are still in denial about the seriousness of this. In New Hampshire, a Republican lawmaker is suing the Republican Governor over the very minor restrictions he'd put in place.

    But the good news is that Europe is getting a grip on this.

    And in a week or two, the US will finally get the message.

    Death rates in the US will be significantly worse than Europe. The crisis will be worse because of poor public health provision and poor leadership. But the US will have the advantage of getting to watch Europe get better. They will do the right thing, once they have exhausted the alternatives.
    America also can throw huge resources at the problem: science; computing; manufacturing.
    It can. Although it's worth remembering that - while the US is *a* leader in drug development, they're not *the* leader.
  • Options
    LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 651
    Jonathan said:

    @GideonWise best wishes for you and your family.

    Best wishes and good luck to @GideonWise and indeed to anyone else who has been affected.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    rcs1000 said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    The election will almost certainly happen. The US constitution makes it incredibly difficult to change the date. Indeed, elections carried on throughout WII and the civil war, both of which were greater national crises. Of course it is possible (in the sense that a constitutional amendment could, in theory, be rushed through) but I think it very unlikely, for two reasons. The first is logistics. The second is pure partisan considerations - the Democrats want Trump out and they won’t want to give him a longer term of office.
    Yes I agree with that. What I meant by ‘as we understand it’ was: personal voting in booths may not happen, it will all be online or postal (if the virus is still raging)

    This is bleak but interesting, and accords with my corona rule of thumb, which is: imagine a reasonable worst case scenario, because that is what will happen. It’s been pretty good so far.

    https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-deaths-scenarios-a452dd00-81eb-4683-9050-83a93e40b538.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100
    That's not a very insightful piece.

    The US is an absolute mess as far as CV-19 response goes. The national government and the states were extremely slow to respond to the problems. The evidence is that New York is going to be worse than Italy.

    And while some places (like California and New York) have shut down, they are the exception, not the rule.

    Large parts of the US are still in denial about the seriousness of this. In New Hampshire, a Republican lawmaker is suing the Republican Governor over the very minor restrictions he'd put in place.

    But the good news is that Europe is getting a grip on this.

    And in a week or two, the US will finally get the message.

    Death rates in the US will be significantly worse than Europe. The crisis will be worse because of poor public health provision and poor leadership. But the US will have the advantage of getting to watch Europe get better. They will do the right thing, once they have exhausted the alternatives.
    America also can throw huge resources at the problem: science; computing; manufacturing.
    If New York is worse than Italy, how does Cuomo become Dem nominee? For a start he will still be battling the misery and chaos in his own state.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Can't help thinking this has been game planned. A load of uncaring twats carry on as if nothing has happened, forcing Johnson to introduce massive lockdown.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1241851522134224896

    Haven't you noticed the pattern in this? Government - please stop going to the pub. Then the government shuts the pubs... etc etc

    It's first the voluntary option, then follow up with the stick.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    Harvey Weinstein contracting the virus is going to have the conspiracy theorists working overtime.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    edited March 2020
    Floater said:

    Nandos is down, I repeat Nandos is down. Not even delivering.

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    Interesting they chose not to go 100% delivery.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,727

    Can't help thinking this has been game planned. A load of uncaring twats carry on as if nothing has happened, forcing Johnson to introduce massive lockdown.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1241851522134224896

    Haven't you noticed the pattern in this? Government - please stop going to the pub. Then the government shuts the pubs... etc etc

    It's first the voluntary option, then follow up with the stick.
    Quite. And likely more effective to go step by step, in terms of voluntary compliance and public shaming enforcement, as disapproval ramps up against those who flout reasonable guidance and advice. Since it really cannot happen effectively without consent, wagging a finger harder with a day give or take wouldn't make much difference I suspect.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Can't help thinking this has been game planned. A load of uncaring twats carry on as if nothing has happened, forcing Johnson to introduce massive lockdown.

    twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1241851522134224896

    If that's the case, he better get a move on....
    The British public reminds me of my brother as a kid who would simply ignore my parents telling him to behave.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    Excellent, that is really good to hear.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't want to do a Rogerdamus...

    But no.

    Has anyone heard from Roger lately?
    I believe it is spelt Woger. One presumes he is hanging out with Boris Becker somewhere...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited March 2020

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    Timpsons also showing itself to be a top quality employer. Guaranteed full pay for all employees for however long it is necessary to be closed.

    Sounds like the supermarkets / government getting their shit together on the food front, with the announcement today of food parcels to be delivered to all those vulnerable isolators.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    rcs1000 said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    I genuinely wonder if there will be an election, as we understand it.

    If sunshine doesn’t kill the virus, or it returns for a Spanish Flu style second wave....

    The election will almost certainly happen. The US constitution makes it incredibly difficult to change the date. Indeed, elections carried on throughout WII and the civil war, both of which were greater national crises. Of course it is possible (in the sense that a constitutional amendment could, in theory, be rushed through) but I think it very unlikely, for two reasons. The first is logistics. The second is pure partisan considerations - the Democrats want Trump out and they won’t want to give him a longer term of office.
    Yes I agree with that. What I meant by ‘as we understand it’ was: personal voting in booths may not happen, it will all be online or postal (if the virus is still raging)

    This is bleak but interesting, and accords with my corona rule of thumb, which is: imagine a reasonable worst case scenario, because that is what will happen. It’s been pretty good so far.

    https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-deaths-scenarios-a452dd00-81eb-4683-9050-83a93e40b538.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100
    That's not a very insightful piece.

    The US is an absolute mess as far as CV-19 response goes. The national government and the states were extremely slow to respond to the problems. The evidence is that New York is going to be worse than Italy.

    And while some places (like California and New York) have shut down, they are the exception, not the rule.

    Large parts of the US are still in denial about the seriousness of this. In New Hampshire, a Republican lawmaker is suing the Republican Governor over the very minor restrictions he'd put in place.

    But the good news is that Europe is getting a grip on this.

    And in a week or two, the US will finally get the message.

    Death rates in the US will be significantly worse than Europe. The crisis will be worse because of poor public health provision and poor leadership. But the US will have the advantage of getting to watch Europe get better. They will do the right thing, once they have exhausted the alternatives.
    America also can throw huge resources at the problem: science; computing; manufacturing.
    What America needs is some coordinated action, informed by highly qualified scientific advise.

    Instead they have Trump.

    On Topic : No chance, unless Biden is physically unable to continue. Then you are in a game of 52 card pickup.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    Jonathan said:

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
    My *guess* is that they are using information from previous deliveries - notes about needing help with carrying stuff in etc.

    Mind you, this may well be the flip side of data mining...
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
    Interesting.

    I have an email from Sainsbury's this morning saying they have identified me as vulnerable (full time carer, wife disabled), and saying I can log on tomorrow. No specific delivery spot as you describe.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
    Interesting.

    I have an email from Sainsbury's this morning saying they have identified me as vulnerable (full time carer, wife disabled), and saying I can log on tomorrow. No specific delivery spot as you describe.
    My email contained this:

    "How will it work?
    You can log on to our website or app on Monday to book a slot online as normal. We'll send you an email to let you know when slots are open. Be sure to book your delivery slot before the end of the day on Monday.
    If you can't get one straight away, please keep trying. We'll make more slots available throughout the day where possible.
    Please bear in mind that you'll be able to make a maximum of one order per week."
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    Jonathan said:

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
    Not sure they deliver regularly and we have a ramp and they see Mrs BJ in her wheelchair. I seem to remember about a year ago delivery bloke told us to register as such via Sainsburys or Nectar helpdesk.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    Jonathan said:

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
    My *guess* is that they are using information from previous deliveries - notes about needing help with carrying stuff in etc.

    Mind you, this may well be the flip side of data mining...
    I suspect the Government, under the emergency powers, has shared the database of disabled claimants, blue badge holders etc etc.

    My neighbour had an email along similar lines (he is 75). How did they know his age?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
    Interesting.

    I have an email from Sainsbury's this morning saying they have identified me as vulnerable (full time carer, wife disabled), and saying I can log on tomorrow. No specific delivery spot as you describe.
    My email contained this:

    "How will it work?
    You can log on to our website or app on Monday to book a slot online as normal. We'll send you an email to let you know when slots are open. Be sure to book your delivery slot before the end of the day on Monday.
    If you can't get one straight away, please keep trying. We'll make more slots available throughout the day where possible.
    Please bear in mind that you'll be able to make a maximum of one order per week."
    I am starting to wonder if this is why Ocado pulled online deliveries - pulled back to orientate towards deliveries for the elderly and vulnerable. We shall see shortly, I suppose.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    Great news
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Jonathan said:

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
    My *guess* is that they are using information from previous deliveries - notes about needing help with carrying stuff in etc.

    Mind you, this may well be the flip side of data mining...
    I suspect the Government, under the emergency powers, has shared the database of disabled claimants, blue badge holders etc etc.

    My neighbour had an email along similar lines (he is 75). How did they know his age?
    Remember when we were all debating "Should we introduce ID cards :) " ?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
    Very impressive TBH wasn't expecting to get a slot as they were disappearing as soon as I clicked on them but managed to get my 3rd choice of time.

    They are doing it every day in rotation ie tomorrow for delivery on Tuesday etc.

    We get another chance in 7 days and once a week for as long as the crisis continues I understand.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
    Not sure they deliver regularly and we have a ramp and they see Mrs BJ in her wheelchair. I seem to remember about a year ago delivery bloke told us to register as such via Sainsburys or Nectar helpdesk.
    Ta. Ramp and wheelchair here too, but not registered. Monday’s job.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    Pulpstar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
    My *guess* is that they are using information from previous deliveries - notes about needing help with carrying stuff in etc.

    Mind you, this may well be the flip side of data mining...
    I suspect the Government, under the emergency powers, has shared the database of disabled claimants, blue badge holders etc etc.

    My neighbour had an email along similar lines (he is 75). How did they know his age?
    Remember when we were all debating "Should we introduce ID cards :) " ?
    DOB on nectar application form the CEO e mail said
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    Left scream to be locked down by the State.

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1241780036136566785
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Left scream to be locked down by the State.

    twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1241780036136566785

    I have a feeling if Boris had gone for an immediate sweeping lockdown, he would be screaming fascist authoritarian state. Carole Conspiracy is already banging on about such things in regards to the emergency powers bill.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
    Interesting.

    I have an email from Sainsbury's this morning saying they have identified me as vulnerable (full time carer, wife disabled), and saying I can log on tomorrow. No specific delivery spot as you describe.
    My email contained this:

    "How will it work?
    You can log on to our website or app on Monday to book a slot online as normal. We'll send you an email to let you know when slots are open. Be sure to book your delivery slot before the end of the day on Monday.
    If you can't get one straight away, please keep trying. We'll make more slots available throughout the day where possible.
    Please bear in mind that you'll be able to make a maximum of one order per week."
    Ours said the same but then got an e mail saying slots available for tomorrow at 8.18pm tonight.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860

    Left scream to be locked down by the State.

    twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1241780036136566785

    I have a feeling if Boris had gone for an immediate sweeping lockdown, he would be screaming fascist authoritarian state. Carole Conspiracy is already banging on about such things in regards to the emergency powers bill.
    Well she is an idiot.

    Any temporary loss of freedoms is a price worth paying to save lives.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
    Interesting.

    I have an email from Sainsbury's this morning saying they have identified me as vulnerable (full time carer, wife disabled), and saying I can log on tomorrow. No specific delivery spot as you describe.
    My email contained this:

    "How will it work?
    You can log on to our website or app on Monday to book a slot online as normal. We'll send you an email to let you know when slots are open. Be sure to book your delivery slot before the end of the day on Monday.
    If you can't get one straight away, please keep trying. We'll make more slots available throughout the day where possible.
    Please bear in mind that you'll be able to make a maximum of one order per week."
    Ours said the same but then got an e mail saying slots available for tomorrow at 8.18pm tonight.
    thanks. I will be hooked to email tomorrow morning!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    Jonathan said:

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    How did they know? Mrs Jonathan also disabled, but not sure how Sainsbury’s would know.
    My *guess* is that they are using information from previous deliveries - notes about needing help with carrying stuff in etc.

    Mind you, this may well be the flip side of data mining...
    I suspect the Government, under the emergency powers, has shared the database of disabled claimants, blue badge holders etc etc.

    My neighbour had an email along similar lines (he is 75). How did they know his age?
    Nearly all sites ask for your birth date when registering.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860

    Big shout out to Sainsburys

    Wrote to Mrs BJ this morning saying they were aware she is disabled and telling her she would receive an e mail later offering a priority delivery slot.

    Sure enough e mail received 8 18pm Slot booked 8.19pm Delivery due tomorrow.

    Not sure if we will get everything but hopefully will get most. Massive weight off our minds. 2 daughter have symptoms so we were a bit stuck.

    Even allowed us to use a £9 off £60 at checkout sent to us in happier times.

    Thank you Sainsburys.

    My Aunt received a similar email earlier - apparently Sainsburys are using age on the registration, plus delivery notes from previous deliveries to identify those who need help.
    Interesting.

    I have an email from Sainsbury's this morning saying they have identified me as vulnerable (full time carer, wife disabled), and saying I can log on tomorrow. No specific delivery spot as you describe.
    My email contained this:

    "How will it work?
    You can log on to our website or app on Monday to book a slot online as normal. We'll send you an email to let you know when slots are open. Be sure to book your delivery slot before the end of the day on Monday.
    If you can't get one straight away, please keep trying. We'll make more slots available throughout the day where possible.
    Please bear in mind that you'll be able to make a maximum of one order per week."
    Ours said the same but then got an e mail saying slots available for tomorrow at 8.18pm tonight.
    thanks. I will be hooked to email tomorrow morning!
    Make sure you log in to Sainsburys using the account of the disabled person and then book a slot quickly there were about 20 available at 8.19pm i lost 2 in the first minute but got the erd i noticed after shopping they were all gone 30 mins after the e mail.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Left scream to be locked down by the State.

    twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1241780036136566785

    I have a feeling if Boris had gone for an immediate sweeping lockdown, he would be screaming fascist authoritarian state. Carole Conspiracy is already banging on about such things in regards to the emergency powers bill.
    Well she is an idiot.

    Any temporary loss of freedoms is a price worth paying to save lives.
    What he said
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    HYUFD said:
    It is perfectly possible to get the rough sleepers inside - well, most of them. Hence the hostel spaces for them in winter. *Keeping* them inside is a different thing - in most cases rough sleeping is a symptom of their situation, not the core issue.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    Lost Sense of Smell May Be Peculiar Clue to Coronavirus Infection

    On Friday, British ear, nose and throat doctors, citing reports from colleagues around the world, called on adults who lose their senses of smell to isolate themselves for seven days, even if they have no other symptoms, to slow the disease’s spread.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
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    HYUFD said:
    It is perfectly possible to get the rough sleepers inside - well, most of them. Hence the hostel spaces for them in winter. *Keeping* them inside is a different thing - in most cases rough sleeping is a symptom of their situation, not the core issue.
    This is true. However in Finland, giving all homeless people homes has unexpectedly solved many core issues.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,964
    How'd they call him if it ran out of battery?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    Left scream to be locked down by the State.

    twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1241780036136566785

    I have a feeling if Boris had gone for an immediate sweeping lockdown, he would be screaming fascist authoritarian state. Carole Conspiracy is already banging on about such things in regards to the emergency powers bill.
    Sorry to drone on Carole-style but everything Dr Jenny Harries (deputy chief medical officer for England) said at the briefing, including about how and for whom it's safe to walk outside, sounded very nuanced and balanced and presumably that's the kind of advice that HMG is being fed. I didn't sense any tension that suggested she was itching for the government to lock down everything as of five days ago - and that's also in line with what we know a lot of the experts think. Anyone who's studied infectious disease modelling will know why their default preference is to save some of the "big guns" for later on the curve if it's possible to do so without breaching health system capacity (even Boris seemed to grasp this point at the presser). I think it's fair to assume his current advice goes something like "get things in place to lockdown when needed, and quickly to prevent a Spanish or Italian style exodus, but we're not calling for one just yet."

    As well as the political angle you've picked up on, I think there have been pragmatic reasons to phase in the restrictions we've had so far. Getting as many parents as possible at home before schools are closed reduces the chance of germhopping grannycare; turning schools into daycare centres for people we still need to be working for stuff to keep going is better than the all-guns-blazing shut-everything-entirely approach if it means hospital cleaners can keep turning up to work and folk who are meant to be cocooning don't need to walk to the shops because the online delivery drivers are having to homeschool their kids.

    If HMG's advisers tell him the time has come, I think it's overwhelmingly likely that Johnson will follow what they say and order whatever they deem necessary. He is certainly doing the legislative work right now to give himself the options if needed. On the flip side, if his advisers tell him that he needs to hold his nerve before ordering the next step, I'd rather he listened to them than to the folk telling him to go for lockdown now, including genuine experts who lay outside the decision-making process. Because even if someone is a top virologist or modeller or behavioural specialist, they don't have access to the same data and evidence HMG do and their depth of expertise in their area may not qualify them any better than the CMO/CSO to synthesise all that evidence.
    Excellent post.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377

    HYUFD said:
    It is perfectly possible to get the rough sleepers inside - well, most of them. Hence the hostel spaces for them in winter. *Keeping* them inside is a different thing - in most cases rough sleeping is a symptom of their situation, not the core issue.
    This is true. However in Finland, giving all homeless people homes has unexpectedly solved many core issues.
    If it has cured drug and alcohol issues multiplied by mental health - I would be astonished.

    For decades, large numbers of intelligent, caring people have tried to improve the situation for the rough sleepers. If it was as simple as giving them a home....
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    Any temporary loss of freedoms is a price worth paying to save lives.

    https://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.com/2020/03/are-there-any-libertarians-in-pandemic.html

    Christopher Snowdon is a proper anti-nanny state, anti-"public health industry" libertarian and even he's onside for this one!

    How can libertarians ever support mandatory quarantine and nationwide lockdowns?

    Quite easily, as it happens. I can’t speak for all libertarians (who can?) but I see libertarianism as applied economics. The government should leave businesses alone unless there are demonstrable market failures and it should leave people alone unless they are doing direct harm to others.

    In case it is not obvious, infecting somebody with a potentially fatal virus counts as direct harm to others.

    Let us assume that Coronavirus is far more dangerous than seasonal flu and has the potential to kill millions. If so, it is a classic public health problem. It carries serious negative externalities and can only be dealt with by collective action. There are things you can do as an individual to reduce your risk - wash your hands, cancel non-urgent appointments, etc. - but you will still be at risk.

    Libertarians want to keep coercion to the minimum. We would prefer mass vaccination, but there is no vaccine yet. We would prefer voluntary self-isolation, but we cannot rely on people doing this even if they are aware that they have the virus. Lock-downs and quarantines are economically damaging and illiberal. They might be a last resort, but they should not be off the table. They do not fall under the umbrella of ‘nanny state’ because they are designed to protect other people from you and you from other people, not you from yourself.

    ...

    We want to keep restrictions on liberty to a minimum and we do not want to damage the economy, but we may have to accept a bit of both - temporarily - if we are to protect ourselves. This is not the nanny state. It is the prevention of harm from an external threat.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985
    Just seeing percentage growth decline is not enough. We need to see absolute number of new infections declining. Austria, I suspect, is close to that. Italy and Spain too.

    Hopefully by the middle of this week, we'll start to get good news from the countries that moved fastest.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985

    HYUFD said:
    It is perfectly possible to get the rough sleepers inside - well, most of them. Hence the hostel spaces for them in winter. *Keeping* them inside is a different thing - in most cases rough sleeping is a symptom of their situation, not the core issue.
    This is true. However in Finland, giving all homeless people homes has unexpectedly solved many core issues.
    People freezing to death on the streets in winter?
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    ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    rcs1000 said:

    Just seeing percentage growth decline is not enough. We need to see absolute number of new infections declining. Austria, I suspect, is close to that. Italy and Spain too.

    Hopefully by the middle of this week, we'll start to get good news from the countries that moved fastest.
    Given how lax the initial Italian and Spanish measures were I have my doubts that we'll see dipping levels of infections so soon. If we do then it's good news, if not then buckle up.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    On topic, it was nice to be reminded that I've overlaid this market to the extent that Cuomo is actually a better result for me than Biden, even though I'd never placed a single bet on him directly.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,985
    Chameleon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Just seeing percentage growth decline is not enough. We need to see absolute number of new infections declining. Austria, I suspect, is close to that. Italy and Spain too.

    Hopefully by the middle of this week, we'll start to get good news from the countries that moved fastest.
    Given how lax the initial Italian and Spanish measures were I have my doubts that we'll see dipping levels of infections so soon. If we do then it's good news, if not then buckle up.
    Well, we are probably seeing it already in Lombary and Veneto. If the downward trend continues tomorrow and Monday in those provinces, then you'd expect the country's overall curve to start coming down by the end of the week.
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Interesting discussion FPT

    The real strategy the government has to go for is dropping this 80% only get mild symptoms stuff. Gone is the time not to scare the horses, it should be full on 80s AIDs ads.

    Here is xxx, she is 39, she had no underlying health conditions and is on a ventilator fighting for their life (and that's a story from today).

    Next....here is ...

    And show the really grim state of lungs in cases from China.

    Scare the shit out of people.

    Well, they’re right. 80% do only get mild symptoms. I know it feels like the endtimes but we need to rely on facts at this time. Of course that doesn’t help if you’re one of the 20% and I am not in any way playing down this at all, and there is a debate to be had about the tone of the governments advice, but scaring the sh*t out of people, as you put it, could be wholly counterproductive when we look at the issues with the stockpiling and other things that are causing so much difficulty for people in this country right now.
    "Well, they’re right. 80% do only get mild symptoms"

    You know that includes everybody from nothing, to the worst flu in the world, to people who develop quite serious pneumonia. It just means they didn't need to go to hospital.

    The man who wrote the report that stat comes from says he regrets ever says mild, because he said people have really misunderstood the meaning of that.
    I am sure that this is a very unpleasant illness for a large chunk of the people who get it (after all we have read so many reports from sufferers that it is obvious that it’s not a nice experience at all). All I am saying is we need a level head too. We are not all going to die. This is not bubonic plague. It is a very scary time and a really serious health crisis, all I am saying is we need to be very careful when we talk about risk.
    There's a famous piece in Health Affairs by George M. Gray and David P. Ropeik (both from the Center for Risk Analysis at Harvard's School of Public Health) called "Dealing With The Dangers Of Fear: The Role Of Risk Communication".

    ABSTRACT
    Among the many lessons of the homeland terrorist attacks of 2001 was that fear has powerful public health implications. People chose to drive instead of flying, thereby raising their risk of injury or death. Thousands took broad-spectrum antibiotics to prevent possible anthrax infections, thereby accelerating antimicrobial resistance. Such potentially harmful actions were taken by people seeking a sense of safety because they were afraid. This essay argues for greater emphasis on risk communication to help people keep their fears in perspective. Effective communication, not only through what the government says but implicit in the actions it takes, empowers people to make wiser choices in their own lives, and to support wise choices by society in applying limited resources to maximize public and environmental health.


    It's very thought-provoking and deserves a thorough read, even if you disagree with their conclusions. The thing I think health wonks will find they might part company on with Gray and Ropeik's prescription, or at least find harder to follow it if, is:

    SET HONEST GOALS.
    Another paradigm shift is about measuring success. Honest goals must be set. Most risk communication fails because it tells people only what the communicators want them to know, to get them to behave “rationally”—that is, the way the communicator wants them to behave. This is the “brainwashing” model that Sheila Jasanoff and others have fairly criticized. 29 We believe that risk communication is more likely to succeed if it sets the more realistic goal of helping people understand the facts, in ways that are relevant to their own lives, feelings, and values, so they are empowered to put the risk in perspective and make more informed choices. Both approaches seek to inform, to educate, and to motivate changes in behavior. But the first is overtly manipulative and less likely to be trusted, while the second acknowledges and respects the reality that people’s reactions to risk are not always rational and presents the information in terms relevant to what they are feeling.

    Such change will not come easily to some agencies. It means letting go of control (“We’ll tell them what we want to tell them and make them think what we want them to think”) and relying on trustworthiness rather than manipulation to achieve success. It will take a courageous manager to recognize the long-run value of giving up control in the short term.


    Please please read the whole thing, I know I post a lot of links on here but since "government comms strategy" seems to be a recurring theme on PB atm this article deserves reading several times over!!
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    edited March 2020
    Some of the official figures aren't credible IMO, especially those from Russia, India and Pakistan. 12 people have died in those countries according to the published statistics. Total population = 1.68 billion. (I'm not saying there's a deliberate cover-up, it may just be that the means of collecting data isn't up to the job).
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Re that "honest goals" point, and that this encompasses deeds as well as words...

    There's a point @FrancisUrquhart has raised before about the French gvt acting like they're the hardcore-yet-responsible adult in the room with their big scary two-week shutdown, whereas the UK has put us all on warning for 3 or 4 months. While we'll only know in retrospect who played the better hand here, I know the UK's more honest approach would engender far more trust from me as the pandemic pans out.
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    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    On the US election: I'm not sure how, say, a US debate on healthcare will pan out when every system, globally, is collapsing. Or any debate on any topic.
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