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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to the “Nanny State” – Boris style

One of the great ironies of the current fight against the coronavirus is that the prime minister overseeing the biggest clampdown on personal liberties in peacetime is Boris Johnson who as a journalist made a name for himself by taking on what he would often term the “Nanny State”.The headline that stands out on this morning’s front pages is that in the Daily Telegraph the paper that Boris used to work for and where he continued being a columnist before he became a minister. As can be seen it states simply the End of Freedom. This is about ideology and it must have been hard for Johnson to come to this decision in order to contain the massive threat that the coronavirus presents.This is how Times columnist Rachel Sylvester sums it up in her excellent column this morning.

Read the full story here

IshmaelZ

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

tlg86

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

IanB2

Third

The Guardian plays it straight and the Telegraph goes for the political hyperbole.

ClippP

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

tlg86

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Fucksake. When he doesn't do a daily press conference people complain. He addresses the nation to say it as it is. People complain.

Look, fair enough, people who don't like him can slag him off whatever. But it is really fucking tiring.

On the matter of what happens once all of this is over, I'd suggest the moment someone sneezes in the Far East the aviation industry (what's left of it) will grind to a halt.

AlastairMeeks

Boris Johnson’s first act as mayor of London was to ban drinking alcohol on the tube. He’s not that libertarian.

OldKingCole

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

Well, I don't like Boris; to me he's irresponsible and dishonest, I do think though that he's walked into a situation where bonhomie and appearing to be a 'good chap' are not going to be enough. Watching him last night I got the impression that he thought this might be his 'Churchill, saviour of the nation moment'; when it's over he'll be standing on the balcony at Buckingham Palace alongside the Queen, waving to the cameras.
What I think he's forgotten is that only a couple of months after that moment in 1945 a Labour lawyer was in a taxi heading from that Palace to Downing Street.

CarlottaVance

AlastairMeeks said:

Boris Johnson’s first act as mayor of London was to ban drinking alcohol on the tube. He’s not that libertarian.

And a couple of Water Canons from Germany which Mrs May stopped him using.

By their deeds yea shall know them.

tlg86

AlastairMeeks said:

Boris Johnson’s first act as mayor of London was to ban drinking alcohol on the tube. He’s not that libertarian.

I hadn't really thought about it until everyone started saying this was why the government was delaying implementing more stringent measures.

Actually, I think the issue isn't the government but us as a society. I think we are the most libertarian society on the planet. A police officer friend of mine texted me the other night to say that if they did what the French police were doing, they would be sacked and prosecuted.

We have police by consent in this country, so it is really important that we as people talk ourselves into the need to obey the rules. Hopefully the public have got the message and police aren't required to intervene.

Theuniondivvie

AlastairMeeks said:

Boris Johnson’s first act as mayor of London was to ban drinking alcohol on the tube. He’s not that libertarian.

Doesn't Libertarianism always fold when it meets reality? Atlas shrugs until he has to do the dirty business of governing, or needs the good offices of the state to dig him out of a personal hole.

IanB2

Looks like we are heading for a beautiful run of weather too. Just typical for the incessant rain finally to stop right now.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

One hopes this reduces the number of idiots congregating. I do wonder if it'll just be ignored in certain parts of the country.

Scott_xP

felix

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Only for loons like you. Tim Farron today shows you up for you stupidity.

Casino_Royale

IanB2 said:

Looks like we are heading for a beautiful run of weather too. Just typical for the incessant rain finally to stop right now.

People may take slightly longer for that "one walk" a day.

SouthamObserver

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

IanB2

tlg86 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Boris Johnson’s first act as mayor of London was to ban drinking alcohol on the tube. He’s not that libertarian.

I hadn't really thought about it until everyone started saying this was why the government was delaying implementing more stringent measures.

Actually, I think the issue isn't the government but us as a society. I think we are the most libertarian society on the planet. A police officer friend of mine texted me the other night to say that if they did what the French police were doing, they would be sacked and prosecuted.

We have police by consent in this country, so it is really important that we as people talk ourselves into the need to obey the rules. Hopefully the public have got the message and police aren't required to intervene.

I don’t know how realistic Spiral was, but the French police in it still behaved like the 1970s police in Life on Mars.

felix

The Conservative party has always been much less about ideology than its opponents can handle. That is why they win so often. Adaptability is the key feature. All the creeps piling in on him here and elsewhere shows a real failure to understand both him and the party. Ordinary people get him - the chattering classes hate him. He won London and the country and they will not let something like the greatest national crisis since the war deflect them from their attacks.

IanB2

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

They would have been wise to have dealt with the extra tax now, when it would be accepted as part of the crisis package and helped head off the likely inflationary spike. Trying to slap extra taxes on us just as we are released from our homes won’t go down well.

MarqueeMark

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:

Looks like we are heading for a beautiful run of weather too. Just typical for the incessant rain finally to stop right now.

People may take slightly longer for that "one walk" a day.

There's going to be some lovely gardens come June.....

IanB2

There is still a bunch of cruise ships out there looking for a port willing to take their passengers. Those people are going to struggle to get home.

IanB2

MarqueeMark said:

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:

Looks like we are heading for a beautiful run of weather too. Just typical for the incessant rain finally to stop right now.

People may take slightly longer for that "one walk" a day.

There's going to be some lovely gardens come June.....

Note that, according to the letter of the decree, gardening uses up your one spell of exercise allowed outside of the house!

SouthamObserver

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

They would have been wise to have dealt with the extra tax now, when it would be accepted as part of the crisis package and helped head off the likely inflationary spike. Trying to slap extra taxes on us just as we are released from our homes won’t go down well.

All the choices are going to be really hard for a Tory government to make, especially one elected with the support this one got. That’s why I think the future is going to look a lot more social democratic than Thatcherite. I do not see how you get to buccaneering low tax and low regulation from here.

Pulpstar

The rules as currently announced don't change much for me. Feels odd that

OldKingCole

felix said:

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Only for loons like you. Tim Farron today shows you up for you stupidity.

What's Farron said? Where?

felix

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

They would have been wise to have dealt with the extra tax now, when it would be accepted as part of the crisis package and helped head off the likely inflationary spike. Trying to slap extra taxes on us just as we are released from our homes won’t go down well.

I agree with the logic but there'd have been howls of outrage. The reality is that now there should really be just one focus - buying time to slow the spread and save the health system. That was the message of socialist Sanchez at the w/e - he was very emotional and I put aside my own political views to back him to the hilt.

Casino_Royale

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

IanB2

CarlottaVance said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Boris Johnson’s first act as mayor of London was to ban drinking alcohol on the tube. He’s not that libertarian.

And a couple of Water Canons from Germany which Mrs May stopped him using.

By their deeds yea shall know them.

People still making the mistake of trying to pin political beliefs and principles on Boris, I see.

The truth is that he doesn’t have any, and never did. As he himself told his first employer, as I recall.

Casino_Royale

felix said:

The Conservative party has always been much less about ideology than its opponents can handle. That is why they win so often. Adaptability is the key feature. All the creeps piling in on him here and elsewhere shows a real failure to understand both him and the party. Ordinary people get him - the chattering classes hate him. He won London and the country and they will not let something like the greatest national crisis since the war deflect them from their attacks.

The Conservation Party is about power.

OldKingCole

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

felix

Pulpstar said:

The rules as currently announced don't change much for me. Feels odd that

For anyone with any sense who has bee following the news it shouldn't change much at all.

Casino_Royale

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

One hopes this reduces the number of idiots congregating. I do wonder if it'll just be ignored in certain parts of the country.

This can be exaggerated though.

There are some idiots - a lot of idiots - perhaps 20-30% - but most people were taking the guidance very seriously.

Only people I saw on the IoW who were not were white van man - young men in their 20s and 30s.

IanB2

Pulpstar said:

The rules as currently announced don't change much for me. Feels odd that

When the lockdown is released and we go back to aiming for herd immunity, all hermits will be ordered down the pub.

SouthamObserver

MarqueeMark said:

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:

Looks like we are heading for a beautiful run of weather too. Just typical for the incessant rain finally to stop right now.

People may take slightly longer for that "one walk" a day.

There's going to be some lovely gardens come June.....

If we can get on top of this, the summer may be one of the most glorious any of us has ever experienced - whatever the weather (though we must be due some sustained blue skies). Leisure and catering businesses that can hold until June are going to do very well indeed.

CarlottaVance

OldKingCole said:

felix said:

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Only for loons like you. Tim Farron today shows you up for you stupidity.

What's Farron said? Where?

https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242191377565454336?s=20
https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242225857181167621?s=20

I agree with Tim

IanB2

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

Alistair

Over the last week the Dems had been creeping back up to evens but that insane Trump statement yesterday has seen the plunge to 1.9.

Im slowly building up number trading the Dems in this 1.9-2.0 range.

SouthamObserver

The willingness of the Trump machine to sacrifice the lives of one of his key voting demographics is fascinating. They are all over the place currently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

felix

OT - in the long-term I'm unsure about how much societal attitudes will change regarding the balance between state and individual. After all wars have frequently produced something quite similar to what we have now - in some respects more draconian but at the end of the day people do not want an economic and social based on the need for a snowplough in every street in case it snows. There lies true madness.

OldKingCole

Casino_Royale said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

One hopes this reduces the number of idiots congregating. I do wonder if it'll just be ignored in certain parts of the country.

This can be exaggerated though.

There are some idiots - a lot of idiots - perhaps 20-30% - but most people were taking the guidance very seriously.

Only people I saw on the IoW who were not were white van man - young men in their 20s and 30s.

Trouble is, young people are SUPPOSED to congregate. I'm old, but I can't imagine conducting a rewarding affair virtually.
'Put your sweet lips a little closer to the phone' suggested Jim Reeves was looking for a more physically rewarding conclusion.
Didn't happen, of course!

felix

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

That change has been underway for years for many of us.

Andy_JS

This is a terrible day. It shouldn't have been allowed to get this stage.

As soon as it became apparent there was a virus epidemic in China and other countries the borders should have been closed completely, with a very strict quarantine regime for people wishing to return to the UK. Other countries should have done the same.

felix

CarlottaVance said:

OldKingCole said:

felix said:

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Only for loons like you. Tim Farron today shows you up for you stupidity.

What's Farron said? Where?

https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242191377565454336?s=20
https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242225857181167621?s=20

I agree with Tim

Yup - he got caught out being silly and religious a few years ago but he;s shown up an awful lot of twattery with these comments.

IshmaelZ

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

Ebola and HIV from Africa, Spanish flu from Kansas. I doubt a Chinese meat market would faze most of the rest of the world (or any of it 3 generations ago). There is a lot of bad luck involved here. If boycotting Chinese products gives you personal satisfaction go right ahead, and just pray that South Korea never does anything boycottable if you use a phone or a computer. You'll find it harder than you think. I learned the other day that my farrier buys his horseshoes from China, via Amazon.

OldKingCole

CarlottaVance said:

OldKingCole said:

felix said:

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Only for loons like you. Tim Farron today shows you up for you stupidity.

What's Farron said? Where?

https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242191377565454336?s=20
https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242225857181167621?s=20

I agree with Tim

Thanks. Might agree with Tim, but still have a low opinion of Boris J

MarqueeMark

Many city centres are going to be depressing places unless seriously repurposed. Retail is shot, office space is going to be in serious surplus.

Smaller towns might bounce back better, but are going to requre innovative councils who will no longer be able to treat business rates and parking as milch cows.

felix

SouthamObserver said:

The willingness of the Trump machine to sacrifice the lives of one of his key voting demographics is fascinating. They are all over the place currently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

I think the scale of this is simply beyond his paygrade so to speak. I'd be surprised if he survives it.

AlastairMeeks

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

felix

OldKingCole said:

CarlottaVance said:

OldKingCole said:

felix said:

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Only for loons like you. Tim Farron today shows you up for you stupidity.

What's Farron said? Where?

https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242191377565454336?s=20
https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242225857181167621?s=20

I agree with Tim

Thanks. Might agree with Tim, but still have a low opinion of Boris J

Haters gonna hate - - focus now needs to on beating this shit.

isam

SouthamObserver said:

The willingness of the Trump machine to sacrifice the lives of one of his key voting demographics is fascinating. They are all over the place currently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

Gives just been asked by Susanna Reid on GMTV whether the rules apply to children with parents living separately, and he said, no doubt about it, they do. The kids stay with whoever’s got them at the moment and the other parent has to stay away

SouthamObserver

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

OldKingCole

felix said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

That change has been underway for years for many of us.

True, and I buy on line, but there are still things that one wants to look at, touch, turn upside down and examine and so on.
Admittedly we're older, but I can't imagine my wife grocery, and particularly greengrocery, shopping on line.

AlastairMeeks

Andy_JS said:

This is a terrible day. It shouldn't have been allowed to get this stage.

As soon as it became apparent there was a virus epidemic in China and other countries the borders should have been closed completely, with a very strict quarantine regime for people wishing to return to the UK. Other countries should have done the same.

But @Andy_JS if you look back over your own posts from the last few weeks on the subject you will see that there would have been huge resistance to such a move. Governments should lead but ultimately they govern by consent, especially on something like this where the authorities need widespread cooperation. Could the government have moved faster? Yes, but only by a maximum of a week or so. Even that would have been hugely controversial.

CarlottaVance

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1242352801625374721?s=20

Foxy

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

Ebola came from West Africa, HIV from Central Africa, MERS from Saudi, Swine Flu from the USA and BSE from the UK. These viruses jump species everywhere that people eat meat.

As the worlds biggest producer of PPE, I would be very glad of some massive imports from China.

Casino_Royale

OldKingCole said:

Casino_Royale said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

One hopes this reduces the number of idiots congregating. I do wonder if it'll just be ignored in certain parts of the country.

This can be exaggerated though.

There are some idiots - a lot of idiots - perhaps 20-30% - but most people were taking the guidance very seriously.

Only people I saw on the IoW who were not were white van man - young men in their 20s and 30s.

Trouble is, young people are SUPPOSED to congregate. I'm old, but I can't imagine conducting a rewarding affair virtually.
'Put your sweet lips a little closer to the phone' suggested Jim Reeves was looking for a more physically rewarding conclusion.
Didn't happen, of course!

I'm not sure these blokes were doing that.

RobD

AlastairMeeks said:

Andy_JS said:

This is a terrible day. It shouldn't have been allowed to get this stage.

As soon as it became apparent there was a virus epidemic in China and other countries the borders should have been closed completely, with a very strict quarantine regime for people wishing to return to the UK. Other countries should have done the same.

But @Andy_JS if you look back over your own posts from the last few weeks on the subject you will see that there would have been huge resistance to such a move. Governments should lead but ultimately they govern by consent, especially on something like this where the authorities need widespread cooperation. Could the government have moved faster? Yes, but only by a maximum of a week or so. Even that would have been hugely controversial.

What better time to introduce the most draconian restriction on personal liberties ever seen than when the majority of the country is begging for you to do so?

Casino_Royale

SouthamObserver said:

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

Precisely. It's no good the Government pulling its jackboots on and telling people off.

These people have no choice.

CarlottaVance

SouthamObserver said:

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

In retrospect, cutting tube frequency was a mistake - passenger numbers are down 80% - but they need more trains in rush hour.

Scott_xP

Gove now on TV contradicting last night's statement.

Even now the government comms are woeful.

OldKingCole

felix said:

OldKingCole said:

CarlottaVance said:

OldKingCole said:

felix said:

ClippP said:

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

There are limits to the scope of libertarianism . No one would presumably claim that Johnson's libertarianism was phony all along because 6 months into his premiership you can't go out and buy an AK47, or drive a car without passing a driving test, and there are still such a thing as policemen.

It's almost as though those who don't like Boris Johnson are attacking him whatever he does.

His problem is that he has created his own reputation - lazy, cheating, unscupulous, untrustworthy...... All his own work.

So whatever he does, people will not accept it readily. And the members of his government are no better. Fortunately, "government" also comprises our civil service, so not all is lost.

Official guidance and policies would find much more acceptance if Johnson just kept out of the way, instead of hogging the limelight.

Only for loons like you. Tim Farron today shows you up for you stupidity.

What's Farron said? Where?

https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242191377565454336?s=20
https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1242225857181167621?s=20

I agree with Tim

Thanks. Might agree with Tim, but still have a low opinion of Boris J

Haters gonna hate - - focus now needs to on beating this shit.

I don't 'hate' Boris; just don't trust him. To my mind he's the sort of bloke who's great company in the pub until you realise he never buys a round.

MarqueeMark

Andy_JS said:

This is a terrible day. It shouldn't have been allowed to get this stage.

As soon as it became apparent there was a virus epidemic in China and other countries the borders should have been closed completely, with a very strict quarantine regime for people wishing to return to the UK. Other countries should have done the same.

If we had gone it alone, way ahead of the game, can you IMAGINE the howls of outrage by the people prevented from going on their skiing holidays? The economy plunging, tourism dead - for what?

Boris would have been villified even more than he has been to date.

He still gets a B+ from me for how he has played it. Not without missteps, but he has taken all but the dickheads with him.

SouthamObserver

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The willingness of the Trump machine to sacrifice the lives of one of his key voting demographics is fascinating. They are all over the place currently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

Gives just been asked by Susanna Reid on GMTV whether the rules apply to children with parents living separately, and he said, no doubt about it, they do. The kids stay with whoever’s got them at the moment and the other parent has to stay away

This additional guidance came out last night:
https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1242243836992270336?s=21

Foxy

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The willingness of the Trump machine to sacrifice the lives of one of his key voting demographics is fascinating. They are all over the place currently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

Gives just been asked by Susanna Reid on GMTV whether the rules apply to children with parents living separately, and he said, no doubt about it, they do. The kids stay with whoever’s got them at the moment and the other parent has to stay away

How convenient for Boris...

Gadfly

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The willingness of the Trump machine to sacrifice the lives of one of his key voting demographics is fascinating. They are all over the place currently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

Gives just been asked by Susanna Reid on GMTV whether the rules apply to children with parents living separately, and he said, no doubt about it, they do. The kids stay with whoever’s got them at the moment and the other parent has to stay away

The beeb says otherwise...

"Any medical need, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person. This includes moving children under the age of 18 between their parents' homes, where applicable. Key workers or those with children identified as vulnerable can continue to take their children to school"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52014472

Casino_Royale

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

I think you were wrong on working from home though.

Everyone I work with has already woken up to its limitations and they can't wait to get back to work.

I reckon it will make working from home 1-2 days a week more common but the rest of the time people will want (choose) to come into the office.

AlastairMeeks

RobD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Andy_JS said:

This is a terrible day. It shouldn't have been allowed to get this stage.

As soon as it became apparent there was a virus epidemic in China and other countries the borders should have been closed completely, with a very strict quarantine regime for people wishing to return to the UK. Other countries should have done the same.

But @Andy_JS if you look back over your own posts from the last few weeks on the subject you will see that there would have been huge resistance to such a move. Governments should lead but ultimately they govern by consent, especially on something like this where the authorities need widespread cooperation. Could the government have moved faster? Yes, but only by a maximum of a week or so. Even that would have been hugely controversial.

What better time to introduce the most draconian restriction on personal liberties ever seen than when the majority of the country is begging for you to do so?

When it was actually needed, at least a week ago. Governments aren’t just about popularity. That decision to wait will have cost lives. At every stage the government has been a few days behind the curve.

Better late than never though.

malcolmg

Scott_xP said:

Gove now on TV contradicting last night's statement.

Even now the government comms are woeful.

Gove is a useless little turd

not_on_fire

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

Precisely. It's no good the Government pulling its jackboots on and telling people off.

These people have no choice.

TfL should be suspending the Oyster cards of anyone not in a vital industry.

malcolmg

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

I think you were wrong on working from home though.

Everyone I work with has already woken up to its limitations and they can't wait to get back to work.

I reckon it will make working from home 1-2 days a week more common but the rest of the time people will want (choose) to come into the office.

I love working at home

isam

This German professor thinks the reason China and Lombardy has it so bad is their horrendous air pollution

https://twitter.com/clarkemicah/status/1242354549052014594?s=21

Casino_Royale

IshmaelZ said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

Ebola and HIV from Africa, Spanish flu from Kansas. I doubt a Chinese meat market would faze most of the rest of the world (or any of it 3 generations ago). There is a lot of bad luck involved here. If boycotting Chinese products gives you personal satisfaction go right ahead, and just pray that South Korea never does anything boycottable if you use a phone or a computer. You'll find it harder than you think. I learned the other day that my farrier buys his horseshoes from China, via Amazon.

It is hard. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

China isn't the only villain - that wasn't my argument - but it's size and scale and it's woeful lack of regulation mean it's the biggest risk. And it is risk. It isn't just "bad luck" - the poor hygiene and sanitation are well documented and a key cause of viral transmission from animals to humans.

Of course, if there's elsewhere in the world we can tighten up on similar issues we should do so.

CarlottaVance

https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1242355007485349890?s=20

isam

isam said:

This German professor thinks the reason China and Lombardy has it so bad is their horrendous air pollution

https://twitter.com/clarkemicah/status/1242354549052014594?s=21

MarqueeMark

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

I think you were wrong on working from home though.

Everyone I work with has already woken up to its limitations and they can't wait to get back to work.

I reckon it will make working from home 1-2 days a week more common but the rest of the time people will want (choose) to come into the office.

I love working at home

So do your colleagues, malcy, so do your colleagues.....

rcs1000

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

H1n1 came from the US: https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/information_h1n1_virus_qa.htm
So beware of casting stones

Casino_Royale

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

I think you were wrong on working from home though.

Everyone I work with has already woken up to its limitations and they can't wait to get back to work.

I reckon it will make working from home 1-2 days a week more common but the rest of the time people will want (choose) to come into the office.

I love working at home

Fair enough. I like it 1-2 days a week (breaks up the commute and means I can focus on output) but not every day.

The novelty of doing so full time wore off very quickly for all of my team.

OldKingCole

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

I think you were wrong on working from home though.

Everyone I work with has already woken up to its limitations and they can't wait to get back to work.

I reckon it will make working from home 1-2 days a week more common but the rest of the time people will want (choose) to come into the office.

I love working at home

Very difficult to do what I did in an office. And we're a long way off warehouse ;picking remotely being the norm.
And as for farming.......

Jonathan

Another day, another policy, but more confusing comms from the government. Don’t understand why anyone would get on a tube carriage like that. Better to be late for work.

SouthamObserver

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

China is integral to so many supply chains in so many industries. Huawei is going to be central to our 5G infrastructure. It’s going to be impossible to avoid. But we need to see it for what it is. No-one should think The Chinese government has any interest in mind but its own.

Casino_Royale

not_on_fire said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

Precisely. It's no good the Government pulling its jackboots on and telling people off.

These people have no choice.

TfL should be suspending the Oyster cards of anyone not in a vital industry.

What of those who simply won't get paid unless they go in?

Where's the carrot?

Look at the crowds. These are not well off people with a lot of choices.

isam

Gadfly said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The willingness of the Trump machine to sacrifice the lives of one of his key voting demographics is fascinating. They are all over the place currently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

Gives just been asked by Susanna Reid on GMTV whether the rules apply to children with parents living separately, and he said, no doubt about it, they do. The kids stay with whoever’s got them at the moment and the other parent has to stay away

The beeb says otherwise...

"Any medical need, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person. This includes moving children under the age of 18 between their parents' homes, where applicable. Key workers or those with children identified as vulnerable can continue to take their children to school"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52014472

Well that seems to be talking about medical reasons, but GMTV are saying now that Gove has told the BBC he was wrong to say what he did and kids can move about! That seems crazy to me

not_on_fire

Casino_Royale said:

not_on_fire said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

Precisely. It's no good the Government pulling its jackboots on and telling people off.

These people have no choice.

TfL should be suspending the Oyster cards of anyone not in a vital industry.

What of those who simply won't get paid unless they go in?

Where's the carrot?

Look at the crowds. These are not well off people with a lot of choices.

The government is supposed to be covering the wages of these people.

If only Crossrail had been finished on time to reduce the crowds ;-)

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/rowenamason/status/1242356599525605376

No_Offence_Alan

MarqueeMark said:

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:

Looks like we are heading for a beautiful run of weather too. Just typical for the incessant rain finally to stop right now.

People may take slightly longer for that "one walk" a day.

There's going to be some lovely gardens come June.....

With no pubs open, and no sport on telly, the cars round my way have never looked so clean.

AlastairMeeks

The decision to reduce the tube service was terrible. Yes they would have been more or less empty. That’s the point.

isam

Gove next to leave cabinet?

Is he even in it?!

Casino_Royale

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

Ebola came from West Africa, HIV from Central Africa, MERS from Saudi, Swine Flu from the USA and BSE from the UK. These viruses jump species everywhere that people eat meat.

As the worlds biggest producer of PPE, I would be very glad of some massive imports from China.

Like I said if we can tighten up on regulation everywhere then we should do so.

But Chinese regulation of sanitary and hygiene standards represent (demonstrably) one of the biggest risks.

There are plenty of other countries that can manufacture PPE too.

malcolmg

Casino_Royale said:

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

I think you were wrong on working from home though.

Everyone I work with has already woken up to its limitations and they can't wait to get back to work.

I reckon it will make working from home 1-2 days a week more common but the rest of the time people will want (choose) to come into the office.

I love working at home

Fair enough. I like it 1-2 days a week (breaks up the commute and means I can focus on output) but not every day.

The novelty of doing so full time wore off very quickly for all of my team.

Great for productivity, but no use for gossips etc, many want to spend their time talking about football, nail varnish etc while complaining about being overworked.
Horses for courses. Why anyone would want to spend hours each day commuting if they did not have to is crazy both personally and for the environment.

IshmaelZ

not_on_fire said:

Casino_Royale said:

not_on_fire said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

Precisely. It's no good the Government pulling its jackboots on and telling people off.

These people have no choice.

TfL should be suspending the Oyster cards of anyone not in a vital industry.

What of those who simply won't get paid unless they go in?

Where's the carrot?

Look at the crowds. These are not well off people with a lot of choices.

The government is supposed to be covering the wages of these people.

If only Crossrail had been finished on time to reduce the crowds ;-)

What on earth is the downside of running a full service with trains almost empty? Even if they are entirely empty it makes Keynesian (hole-digging) sense. Really, really stupid.

malcolmg

OldKingCole said:

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?

Working from home, preference for being out of the city, and shopping online will all endure afterwards.

And the move to a cashless society is being jet-propelled as people prefer to pay contactless.

I was looking back at my predictions as to what Covid-19 might do to society from what I thought was ages back. Then realised I only wrote this a fortnight ago:

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/08/dont-fear-the-reaper-how-covid-19-will-change-us/

It feels like a lifetime now.

I think you were wrong on working from home though.

Everyone I work with has already woken up to its limitations and they can't wait to get back to work.

I reckon it will make working from home 1-2 days a week more common but the rest of the time people will want (choose) to come into the office.

I love working at home

Very difficult to do what I did in an office. And we're a long way off warehouse ;picking remotely being the norm.
And as for farming.......

For sure OKC, there are many jobs where it is impossible.

MarqueeMark

Casino_Royale said:

not_on_fire said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.

https://twitter.com/nsmith694/status/1242343836262846470?s=21

Precisely. It's no good the Government pulling its jackboots on and telling people off.

These people have no choice.

TfL should be suspending the Oyster cards of anyone not in a vital industry.

What of those who simply won't get paid unless they go in?

Where's the carrot?

Look at the crowds. These are not well off people with a lot of choices.

It's hard not to be cynical that this is "herd immunity" in action.

Old, vulnerable, NHS-bed blockers - all kept safe.

Now, the rest - they need to get it so we can move on and get the economy back up and running.

Jonathan

Employees have a role to play. Why drag the workforce in right now? It is not BAU.

malcolmg

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/rowenamason/status/1242356599525605376

What an absolute donkey that horrible little cretin is.

malcolmg

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

Ebola came from West Africa, HIV from Central Africa, MERS from Saudi, Swine Flu from the USA and BSE from the UK. These viruses jump species everywhere that people eat meat.

As the worlds biggest producer of PPE, I would be very glad of some massive imports from China.

Like I said if we can tighten up on regulation everywhere then we should do so.

But Chinese regulation of sanitary and hygiene standards represent (demonstrably) one of the biggest risks.

There are plenty of other countries that can manufacture PPE too.

Why are they not doing it though

Casino_Royale

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

Ebola came from West Africa, HIV from Central Africa, MERS from Saudi, Swine Flu from the USA and BSE from the UK. These viruses jump species everywhere that people eat meat.

As the worlds biggest producer of PPE, I would be very glad of some massive imports from China.

And it's not true Swine Flu came from the USA.

The first case was detected in Mexico but it resulted from an infected animal in Asia.

Casino_Royale

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on.
Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.

China must be made to change. Their domestic environmental, sanitary and hygiene regulation is appalling.

That isn't about revenge; it's about avoiding a future repetition.

SARS, Bird Flu/H5N1.. Covid-19. There's far too much of a pattern there.

Enough. I won't be buying anything Made in China unless they change.

Money will be the only language they understand.

H1n1 came from the US: https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/information_h1n1_virus_qa.htm
So beware of casting stones

It didn't. See wiki.

malcolmg

isam said:

Gove next to leave cabinet?

Is he even in it?!

Is he even in

Jonathan

Somehow we have to avoid the Trumpian blaming foreigners phase.

Pulpstar

Jonathan said:

Employees have a role to play. Why drag the workforce in right now? It is not BAU.

The Govts half baked announcement won't trigger force majeure in contracts as currently stated