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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Time to take your seats in the Friday PB NightHawks cafe

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited April 2020 in General

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  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    first...first ever in 15 fucking years...I'm first
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Congratulations!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    tyson said:

    first...first ever in 15 fucking years...I'm first

    You've earned it, my friend.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    IshmaelZ said:

    Congratulations!


    thanks...I would buy a lottery ticket..but there is fuck all to spend my winnings on....


    But still..first on a pbcom thread...something to write on my tombstone if I'm whacked by coronavirus...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    TGOHF666 said:
    2 weeks in and people are already grasping for news of its end. Doesn't bode well perhaps.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    2 weeks in and people are already grasping for news of its end. Doesn't bode well perhaps.
    Hardly
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1246053315353460737?s=20
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1246053647919788037?s=20
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    2 weeks in and people are already grasping for news of its end. Doesn't bode well perhaps.
    Hardly
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1246053315353460737?s=20
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1246053647919788037?s=20
    It's how much the number might change in the coming weeks which was my concern. Given it will last a long time hopefully they are mentally prepared.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598
    Our bog roll delivery has been pushed back by a week. We should have enough to last.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:
    US and Spain and France already are in terms of increase in cases and deaths, per capita Sweden and the Netherlands will be too

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050

    Our bog roll delivery has been pushed back by a week. We should have enough to last.

    phew...I was worried for a second sandy
  • Options

    Our bog roll delivery has been pushed back by a week. We should have enough to last.

    Some advice for you.


  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598
    tyson said:

    Our bog roll delivery has been pushed back by a week. We should have enough to last.

    phew...I was worried for a second sandy
    We did receive cheese today. Strangely, after clamouring for some all the time we were without, I am now happy to wait until tomorrow before having some.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,330
    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598

    Our bog roll delivery has been pushed back by a week. We should have enough to last.

    Some advice for you.


    Our rabbit doesn't appreciate that advice!
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    Let me guess - you advocate making Momentum a prescribed organisation and expelling its members from the party?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:
    US and Spain and France already are in terms of increase in cases and deaths, per capita Sweden and the Netherlands will be too

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Great. We’re only going to be in the top 5 in the western world.
    About right given we are the 5th largest economy in the western world and China is covering up its figures
  • Options
    matthiasfromhamburgmatthiasfromhamburg Posts: 957
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    2 weeks in and people are already grasping for news of its end. Doesn't bode well perhaps.
    Hardly
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1246053315353460737?s=20
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1246053647919788037?s=20
    It's how much the number might change in the coming weeks which was my concern. Given it will last a long time hopefully they are mentally prepared.
    It might be wise to seize the opportunity that current public approval presents.
    When the lockdown will be loosened it will be important to be able to respond to the inevitable new outbreaks quicker than before. Testing capacity alone doesn't cut it, you have to know who to test.

    Tracking of mobile devices might be a very useful tool for that, Apps have already been developed, but the potential for misuse might make it difficult to achieve public consent for that. It really is a significant sacrifice of privacy and data protection, just imagine what Hitchens, Hannan and Toady will say.
    It might be advisable to introduce the idea sooner rather than later.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    As long as Kier purges all things Corbyn and his disastrous acolytes from the party...I'll be happy....

    I'll be raising a toast tomorrow to the end of Corbyn...an absolute wanker of ridiculous proportions.....
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,398
    tyson said:

    first...first ever in 15 fucking years...I'm first

    Hooray, things are looking up!
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050

    tyson said:

    first...first ever in 15 fucking years...I'm first

    Hooray, things are looking up!

    I'm on a roll.....tomorrow the fuckwit Corbyn will be erased from our collective memories.....
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    Lockdown with rising temperatures leading to greater consumption of refreshing cold drinks. What could go wrong? Apart from rising domestic violence?

    There are also whispers that capacity strain is moving from the NHS to funeral directors.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:
    US and Spain and France already are in terms of increase in cases and deaths, per capita Sweden and the Netherlands will be too

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Great. We’re only going to be in the top 5 in the western world.
    About right given we are the 5th largest economy in the western world and China is covering up its figures
    I don’t think you understand the graph
    I understand the latest figures and increases in cases and deaths
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    tyson said:

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    As long as Kier purges all things Corbyn and his disastrous acolytes from the party...I'll be happy....

    I'll be raising a toast tomorrow to the end of Corbyn...an absolute wanker of ridiculous proportions.....
    Surely you cannot believe he will actually purge them from the party, far too bold an action I'd assume? And Corbyn himself is clearly never leaving the party, so do you think that many of his firmer adherents in the membership at least will depart?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Either you have a lockdown or you don’t. We have ended up in the middle of fuckwhere.

    Lose the economy AND lose 10,000s of lives. Worse than any of our neighbours.

    They will never be forgiven.
    Uh? You can still take outdoor exercise and buy food even in France and Italy.
    Sweden is still pursuing herd immunity for goodness sake.
    Spanish unemployment is rising faster than ours
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    As long as Kier purges all things Corbyn and his disastrous acolytes from the party...I'll be happy....

    I'll be raising a toast tomorrow to the end of Corbyn...an absolute wanker of ridiculous proportions.....
    Surely you cannot believe he will actually purge them from the party, far too bold an action I'd assume? And Corbyn himself is clearly never leaving the party, so do you think that many of his firmer adherents in the membership at least will depart?

    Corbyn and his gang of morons have purged themselves by their utter incompetence...all Keir needs to do is ignore the band of useless fuckwits...

    Corbyn is already a wittering irrelevance...it's something that I've never reconciled with people like Nick P...when level headed folk like my good self were saying Corbyn is a disaster....
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,915
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    There's a load of people who aren't keyworkers and also can't work from home. I think other lockdowns restrict people like this to their houses.
  • Options
    ABZABZ Posts: 441
    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:
    US and Spain and France already are in terms of increase in cases and deaths, per capita Sweden and the Netherlands will be too

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Great. We’re only going to be in the top 5 in the western world.
    About right given we are the 5th largest economy in the western world and China is covering up its figures
    I don’t think you understand the graph
    @eadric did you see these slides from earlier? https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/878046/COVID-19_Press_Conference_Slides_-_03_04_2020.pdf

    Slide 5 is interesting as it shows how much the baseline matters. The FT uses 3 daily deaths, the government chooses 50 daily deaths. The interpretation would be quite different, so just a warning about over-interpreting these figures...

    Also, in case you didn't see it, slide 4 in that deck is perhaps slightly hopeful, and slide 2 suggests that many people across the UK were changing behaviour well before the lockdown.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Even if so we know what the response to that would be, we're already seeing it - government wasn't clear, wasn't firm enough soon enough. And since most places have lockdowns for it not to work as well as theirs, if it happens like that, will make public failure seem like government failure.

    I struggle to see how the government does not come out of this whole thing without a mawling. Even if we don't end up the worse or near the worst in Europe there will be plenty of shortcomings and a long economic mess (however necessary people continue to believe that it is, it won't engender positive thinking toward the government as suffering rolls on).

    On the other hand their position for 2024 is not hopeless all the same given the starting point, and it's all rosy at the moment politically speaking. But their original strategy for holding on to that positive impression is gone and if we have a really bad outcome from this it weakens a lot of other strategies.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,193
    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    The economics may do for the Tories far more than the actual virus.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Pulpstar said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    There's a load of people who aren't keyworkers and also can't work from home. I think other lockdowns restrict people like this to their houses.
    I detected the dark arts of Cummings early on...by locking down (but not really)...the fatality figures could be blamed on the public rather than the Govt....

    The soundbite...stay indoors...protect the NHS...save lives.....its got all the hallmarks of shit deflection......
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    As long as Kier purges all things Corbyn and his disastrous acolytes from the party...I'll be happy....

    I'll be raising a toast tomorrow to the end of Corbyn...an absolute wanker of ridiculous proportions.....
    Surely you cannot believe he will actually purge them from the party, far too bold an action I'd assume? And Corbyn himself is clearly never leaving the party, so do you think that many of his firmer adherents in the membership at least will depart?

    Corbyn and his gang of morons have purged themselves by their utter incompetence...all Keir needs to do is ignore the band of useless fuckwits...

    Corbyn is already a wittering irrelevance...it's something that I've never reconciled with people like Nick P...when level headed folk like my good self were saying Corbyn is a disaster....
    Whilst I cannot predict which way Starmer will go on many issues, not least because the current situation will no doubt have changed when and how he was planning to do some things, I do look forward to the first time he does something Corbyn does not accept and rebels against.

    Corbyn did actually change during his time as leader, be a bit more shifty and wily (ie like leaders are), albeit not very effectively, so I wonder if he will operate as a backbencher as he used to or not.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,803
    TGOHF666 said:
    Sounds far fetched? Isn't it about 96% similar to SARS which originated from bats?
  • Options
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Either you have a lockdown or you don’t. We have ended up in the middle of fuckwhere.

    Lose the economy AND lose 10,000s of lives. Worse than any of our neighbours.

    They will never be forgiven.
    It's the lack of prior preparation that hurts you now. What the government has actually done wasn't all that wrong. It's a communication debacle more than anything. Had they played it more seriously they would have been much more likely to be forgiven for ugly numbers.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    All these graphs depend so heavily on how you align the startpoint. I have seen similar graphs with the start point aligned at date of 1 death, 3 deaths, 50 deaths.

    The effect is to move the individual countries' curves left or right relative to each other but basically, in the west, we are all following the same curve at the moment.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,416
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Either you have a lockdown or you don’t. We have ended up in the middle of fuckwhere.

    Lose the economy AND lose 10,000s of lives. Worse than any of our neighbours.

    They will never be forgiven.
    Might be that the problem isn't so much the degree of lockdown as the *lateness* of the lockdown in the UK. As others have pointed out, the first few days of the graph are much of a muchness everywhere. What is critical is to get off the exponential growth trajectory; at the moment, the only way we can reliably do that is to Remain Indoors. Or away from other people, anyway. And that collectively buys us time to work out what to do next.

    Let's hope the outbreak remains NHS-manageable. But even if it does, that faffing at the start of March, the time spent even entertaining the notion of "Taking it on the chin" or "Getting more cases out of the way before the winter" looks like a high-cost result of a strategy that might have been too clever by half.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    You really do not know children if you think under 10s will have no memory of it

    I remember ration books and the late 40's, even the Queen getting married, and I was only 4 plus. Our 6 and 8 year old grandchildren will never forget not being able to hug their grandma either

    This is a trauma that will live on in very young minds for their lifetime
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    All these graphs depend so heavily on how you align the startpoint. I have seen similar graphs with the start point aligned at date of 1 death, 3 deaths, 50 deaths.

    The effect is to move the individual countries' curves left or right relative to each other but basically, in the west, we are all following the same curve at the moment.
    So at best we're no worse than the other western powers? It will be interesting to see how the various governments each handle that with their own populations in the ensuing economic mess, without an easy 'well look at how bad X did compared to us' (the USA is treated as sui generis perhaps, and whatever doubts there are about places like China or Iran pointing them probably won't fly when officially they will be seen as having done much better).
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Either you have a lockdown or you don’t. We have ended up in the middle of fuckwhere.

    Lose the economy AND lose 10,000s of lives. Worse than any of our neighbours.

    They will never be forgiven.
    It's the lack of prior preparation that hurts you now. What the government has actually done wasn't all that wrong. It's a communication debacle more than anything. Had they played it more seriously they would have been much more likely to be forgiven for ugly numbers.
    One of the government's mistakes was to think that everyone would follow advice. Too many people are either total fuckwits or arrogant arseholes who think they know better.

    And we still get libertarian commentators wibbling their bollocks views across the media.

  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    As long as Kier purges all things Corbyn and his disastrous acolytes from the party...I'll be happy....

    I'll be raising a toast tomorrow to the end of Corbyn...an absolute wanker of ridiculous proportions.....
    Surely you cannot believe he will actually purge them from the party, far too bold an action I'd assume? And Corbyn himself is clearly never leaving the party, so do you think that many of his firmer adherents in the membership at least will depart?

    Corbyn and his gang of morons have purged themselves by their utter incompetence...all Keir needs to do is ignore the band of useless fuckwits...

    Corbyn is already a wittering irrelevance...it's something that I've never reconciled with people like Nick P...when level headed folk like my good self were saying Corbyn is a disaster....
    Whilst I cannot predict which way Starmer will go on many issues, not least because the current situation will no doubt have changed when and how he was planning to do some things, I do look forward to the first time he does something Corbyn does not accept and rebels against.

    Corbyn did actually change during his time as leader, be a bit more shifty and wily (ie like leaders are), albeit not very effectively, so I wonder if he will operate as a backbencher as he used to or not.
    The first thing Kier will do...is seek to get himself recognised by his first name...Maggie, Tony, Boris.....so a charm offensive....

    Since the back bench is an irrelevance in opposition....and only really relevant with a tight majority....Corbyn is done and dusted and cremated...
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    The economics may do for the Tories far more than the actual virus.
    I think it is far too early to think of the poltical price that may or may not be paid
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955
    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2020

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    The economics may do for the Tories far more than the actual virus.
    Currently the UK economy is still doing better than most major western nations though of course the odds are against the Tories exceeding their historic 4th term win last year with an even more historic near 20 years in power anyway, a feat that would surpass any party in government's since that of Salisbury and Balfour
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,803
    eadric said:

    GIN1138 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Sounds far fetched? Isn't it about 96% similar to SARS which originated from bats?
    NON LOCAL BATS

    it actually says BATS
    So the lab took non-local bats, started messing around with Coronaviruses from those bats and somehow COVID-19 emerged into the populace?

    Well I guess it's possible but to me the much more mundane and less sexy theory that the virus emerged through poor hygiene and animal welfare standards at the market is the most likely...

    We'll probably never know.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Either you have a lockdown or you don’t. We have ended up in the middle of fuckwhere.

    Lose the economy AND lose 10,000s of lives. Worse than any of our neighbours.

    They will never be forgiven.
    It's the lack of prior preparation that hurts you now. What the government has actually done wasn't all that wrong. It's a communication debacle more than anything. Had they played it more seriously they would have been much more likely to be forgiven for ugly numbers.
    One of the government's mistakes was to think that everyone would follow advice.

    I don't think they did think that. It's one reason I suspect measures came later than some wanted, because it needed some public anger at advice not being followed before more would actually follow it. If you follow me.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    You really do not know children if you think under 10s will have no memory of it

    I remember ration books and the late 40's, even the Queen getting married, and I was only 4 plus. Our 6 and 8 year old grandchildren will never forget not being able to hug their grandma either

    This is a trauma that will live on in very young minds for their lifetime
    I remember the 4 day week...it was a real hoot...I loved the fact that we lit candles in the evening when the electricity got switched off....
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    edited April 2020
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    As long as Kier purges all things Corbyn and his disastrous acolytes from the party...I'll be happy....

    I'll be raising a toast tomorrow to the end of Corbyn...an absolute wanker of ridiculous proportions.....
    Surely you cannot believe he will actually purge them from the party, far too bold an action I'd assume? And Corbyn himself is clearly never leaving the party, so do you think that many of his firmer adherents in the membership at least will depart?

    Corbyn and his gang of morons have purged themselves by their utter incompetence...all Keir needs to do is ignore the band of useless fuckwits...

    Corbyn is already a wittering irrelevance...it's something that I've never reconciled with people like Nick P...when level headed folk like my good self were saying Corbyn is a disaster....
    It is more complicated than that. First, Corbyn's Labour vastly overperformed at ge2017 and we need to explain that, not ignore it. Boris certainly learned from it and lifted large parts of Labour's platform to run against Cameron and May's Conservative Party. It is ironic then, that Labour seems intent on airbrushing 2017 away.

    Second, the useful idiots in Corbyn's private office need to go; their 2019 performance in the election and over antisemitism could not have been worse if they'd been CCHQ sleepers.

    Third, the casual antisemitism of the ex-Militant types, especially in the North West, where on closer examination it was Ed Miliband and not Corbyn who allowed them to reinfect the party.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    You really do not know children if you think under 10s will have no memory of it

    I remember ration books and the late 40's, even the Queen getting married, and I was only 4 plus. Our 6 and 8 year old grandchildren will never forget not being able to hug their grandma either

    This is a trauma that will live on in very young minds for their lifetime
    I remember the 4 day week...it was a real hoot...I loved the fact that we lit candles in the evening when the electricity got switched off....
    3 day week, comrade. My dad was on the picket line.

    Night all. Stay safe.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
    As I have posted here many times, the amount of data and engagement Chinese doctors have shown in sharing information has been positive....

    Undoubtedly in the early stages China tried to cover it up.....


  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:
    US and Spain and France already are in terms of increase in cases and deaths, per capita Sweden and the Netherlands will be too

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Great. We’re only going to be in the top 5 in the western world.
    About right given we are the 5th largest economy in the western world and China is covering up its figures
    Don't start that again... :s
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    You really do not know children if you think under 10s will have no memory of it

    I remember ration books and the late 40's, even the Queen getting married, and I was only 4 plus. Our 6 and 8 year old grandchildren will never forget not being able to hug their grandma either

    This is a trauma that will live on in very young minds for their lifetime
    I remember the 4 day week...it was a real hoot...I loved the fact that we lit candles in the evening when the electricity got switched off....
    I only remember the first 3 days of it.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    Whether Sweden's heterodoxy succeeds, they deserve respect for following their own path in an open and reasoned way. Whether or not they succeed they will have given all of us a lesson for the future.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,330
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
    That's a seriously bonkers article. Yes, WHO gets funding from every member - the US, Britain, China, and everyone else. Nobody has up to now questioned their impartiality. It does work on the basis of reports from national members, and that's a weakness if the national government lies. But to suggest they're part of a conspiracy is up there with the people who think the UN is patrolling US airspace with black helicopters.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    official - CDC recommends wearing facial coverings when out in public and can't maintain the 6ft distance.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,940

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    Let me guess - you advocate making Momentum a prescribed organisation and expelling its members from the party?
    Proscribed you mean... I think.

    Or maybe not ;-)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    I do feel I am shifting to a pessimistic attitude on this whole crisis. One would always hope we'd at least be middle of the pack in outcomes, and it might still be that way, but the pessimists are beginning to sway me to doubt that. Even having expecting it to be long and awful, it's looking longer and more awful.

    Perhaps Her Majesty will be able to perk me up on Sunday.

    Pleasant dreams all.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,559
    TGOHF666 said:
    If this is true I don't know what the consequences might be.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2020
    geoffw said:

    Whether Sweden's heterodoxy succeeds, they deserve respect for following their own path in an open and reasoned way. Whether or not they succeed they will have given all of us a lesson for the future.

    563 new cases in Sweden today, 50 new deaths.
    For a country with a population of 10 million.
    Brave no lockdown it maybe but it would be Sir Humphrey stating that.

    However if Sweden does not move much beyond the average increase per head and given it has not tested much relatively either and has few incubators per head it would just say the Government can do sod all to limit the impact of coronavirus
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
    That's a seriously bonkers article. Yes, WHO gets funding from every member - the US, Britain, China, and everyone else. Nobody has up to now questioned their impartiality. It does work on the basis of reports from national members, and that's a weakness if the national government lies. But to suggest they're part of a conspiracy is up there with the people who think the UN is patrolling US airspace with black helicopters.
    It’s a pointless institution- up there with the UN for pointlessness.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Either you have a lockdown or you don’t. We have ended up in the middle of fuckwhere.

    Lose the economy AND lose 10,000s of lives. Worse than any of our neighbours.

    They will never be forgiven.
    Might be that the problem isn't so much the degree of lockdown as the *lateness* of the lockdown in the UK. As others have pointed out, the first few days of the graph are much of a muchness everywhere. What is critical is to get off the exponential growth trajectory; at the moment, the only way we can reliably do that is to Remain Indoors. Or away from other people, anyway. And that collectively buys us time to work out what to do next.

    Let's hope the outbreak remains NHS-manageable. But even if it does, that faffing at the start of March, the time spent even entertaining the notion of "Taking it on the chin" or "Getting more cases out of the way before the winter" looks like a high-cost result of a strategy that might have been too clever by half.
    It will take years to know whether the strategy was right or not. The idea that we will know anything before winter is bonkers.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,940
    Can probably do without Queenie Bee waffling on at the fag end of the weekend unless she can put some serious collateral on the table. Buck House as security for thousands of cheap loans to struggling small businesses?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    Whether Sweden's heterodoxy succeeds, they deserve respect for following their own path in an open and reasoned way. Whether or not they succeed they will have given all of us a lesson for the future.

    563 new cases in Sweden today, 50 new deaths.
    For a country with a population of just 8 million.
    Brave it maybe but it would be Sir Humphrey stating that
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    1 case in the Falklands I see.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,940
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Article in Labour List on likely Shadows:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/04/the-next-shadow-cabinet-runners-and-riders/

    I have an article there due to appear at the weekend, on suggested strategy.

    As long as Kier purges all things Corbyn and his disastrous acolytes from the party...I'll be happy....

    I'll be raising a toast tomorrow to the end of Corbyn...an absolute wanker of ridiculous proportions.....
    Surely you cannot believe he will actually purge them from the party, far too bold an action I'd assume? And Corbyn himself is clearly never leaving the party, so do you think that many of his firmer adherents in the membership at least will depart?

    Corbyn and his gang of morons have purged themselves by their utter incompetence...all Keir needs to do is ignore the band of useless fuckwits...

    Corbyn is already a wittering irrelevance...it's something that I've never reconciled with people like Nick P...when level headed folk like my good self were saying Corbyn is a disaster....
    Whilst I cannot predict which way Starmer will go on many issues, not least because the current situation will no doubt have changed when and how he was planning to do some things, I do look forward to the first time he does something Corbyn does not accept and rebels against.

    Corbyn did actually change during his time as leader, be a bit more shifty and wily (ie like leaders are), albeit not very effectively, so I wonder if he will operate as a backbencher as he used to or not.
    The first thing Kier will do...is seek to get himself recognised by his first name...Maggie, Tony, Boris.....so a charm offensive....

    Since the back bench is an irrelevance in opposition....and only really relevant with a tight majority....Corbyn is done and dusted and cremated...
    He has a long way to go on this evidence.

    It’s Keir FFS Tyson.

    K-E-I-R.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    Boris Johnson will be judged on the next four weeks. That prospect should frighten him

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/03/boris-johnson-judged-coronavirus-confusion
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,940
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    It will be the end of the Tory government, perhaps for 30 years.

    Worst in Europe will be inexplicable, unless there was a tremendous failure by the govt.
    Rubbish, first many of the voters in 25 years will be under 10 today and have no memory of it.
    Second the lockdown results will not show for a fortnight by which time our total cases and deaths will be still below Italy, Spain and France and on cases Germany too
    You really do not know children if you think under 10s will have no memory of it

    I remember ration books and the late 40's, even the Queen getting married, and I was only 4 plus. Our 6 and 8 year old grandchildren will never forget not being able to hug their grandma either

    This is a trauma that will live on in very young minds for their lifetime
    I remember the 4 day week...it was a real hoot...I loved the fact that we lit candles in the evening when the electricity got switched off....
    I only remember the first 3 days of it.
    They say if you can remember much after the second day, you weren’t there.
  • Options
    ABZABZ Posts: 441
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:
    US and Spain and France already are in terms of increase in cases and deaths, per capita Sweden and the Netherlands will be too

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Great. We’re only going to be in the top 5 in the western world.
    About right given we are the 5th largest economy in the western world and China is covering up its figures
    Don't start that again... :s
    Absolutely - not sure we need more of that! Regarding the exit strategy, which is where the government will really earn their corn, have you heard any whispers? Or is the goal to just get through the next week or two?

    Realistically, I think we will not get the virus to zero anywhere, but can control its spread (i.e., no hard lockdown) with much higher throughput testing, smart contact tracing and hopefully a better understanding of how to treat patients who do get infected. Are the medics in the NHS already getting more insight on this last front? For example, when to give oxygen / drugs - or is that still too soon?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150

    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
    That's a seriously bonkers article. Yes, WHO gets funding from every member - the US, Britain, China, and everyone else. Nobody has up to now questioned their impartiality. It does work on the basis of reports from national members, and that's a weakness if the national government lies. But to suggest they're part of a conspiracy is up there with the people who think the UN is patrolling US airspace with black helicopters.
    Ignoring the Taiwanese evidence because it is nominally part of China as far as the WHO and the UN are concerned, and as evidenced by Aylward's behaviour in the video clip, need to be called out.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    GIN1138 said:

    eadric said:

    GIN1138 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Sounds far fetched? Isn't it about 96% similar to SARS which originated from bats?
    NON LOCAL BATS

    it actually says BATS
    So the lab took non-local bats, started messing around with Coronaviruses from those bats and somehow COVID-19 emerged into the populace?

    Well I guess it's possible but to me the much more mundane and less sexy theory that the virus emerged through poor hygiene and animal welfare standards at the market is the most likely...

    We'll probably never know.
    The first detected Covid-19 patient had no connection to the wet markets.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,915
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
    That's a seriously bonkers article. Yes, WHO gets funding from every member - the US, Britain, China, and everyone else. Nobody has up to now questioned their impartiality. It does work on the basis of reports from national members, and that's a weakness if the national government lies. But to suggest they're part of a conspiracy is up there with the people who think the UN is patrolling US airspace with black helicopters.
    Ignoring the Taiwanese evidence because it is nominally part of China as far as the WHO and the UN are concerned, and as evidenced by Aylward's behaviour in the video clip, need to be called out.
    Taiwan is definitely part of China, says so on their passports. Republic of China :)
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,559
    A good argument against the recommendation of wearing face masks is that a lot of people will inevitably think it's okay to get closer to other people if they're wearing a mask, even though it certainly isn't a replacement for social distancing.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    eadric said:

    GIN1138 said:

    eadric said:

    GIN1138 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Sounds far fetched? Isn't it about 96% similar to SARS which originated from bats?
    NON LOCAL BATS

    it actually says BATS
    So the lab took non-local bats, started messing around with Coronaviruses from those bats and somehow COVID-19 emerged into the populace?

    Well I guess it's possible but to me the much more mundane and less sexy theory that the virus emerged through poor hygiene and animal welfare standards at the market is the most likely...

    We'll probably never know.
    The lab was investigating bat coronaviruses. Some say for public health, some say for bioweapons. Or both.

    The bats they used were not local species. The lab was notorious for cross species transmission. For humans catching viruses. The lab is several hundred meters from the Wuhan wet market.

    The theory is that - as has happened often before - a lab worker hoping to make some quick money sold some bats in the market, as Chinese like to eat them.

    All this is highly plausible, and a very feasible explanation for what happened.
    That doesn't fit with what the article says, it says that Chinese researchers couldn't find evidence of bats being traded in the market.

    So what's being alledged, admittedly with scant evidence, is that COVID-19 made the jump from bats to humans, possibly via pangolins (evidence of pangolins being traded in the market is also absent), but nobody has demonstrated that the named animal carriers were sold in the market. It that is the case, then it couldn't have been via the market route, and maybe instead it came from the nearby labs that were researching bat viruses due to a worker at the lab being infected.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    Whether Sweden's heterodoxy succeeds, they deserve respect for following their own path in an open and reasoned way. Whether or not they succeed they will have given all of us a lesson for the future.

    563 new cases in Sweden today, 50 new deaths.
    For a country with a population of 10 million.
    Brave no lockdown it maybe but it would be Sir Humphrey stating that.

    However if Sweden does not move much beyond the average increase per head and given it has not tested much relatively either and has few incubators per head it would just say the Government can do sod all to limit the impact of coronavirus
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Quite so, but they will not have damaged their economy to the extent elsewhere. It's a balance. No-one knows yet who has got it right.

  • Options
    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    2 weeks in and people are already grasping for news of its end. Doesn't bode well perhaps.
    Goes against the polls, barely one in twenty thinks this is too much, it’s just more irresponsible press behaviour.


  • Options
    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
    That's a seriously bonkers article. Yes, WHO gets funding from every member - the US, Britain, China, and everyone else. Nobody has up to now questioned their impartiality. It does work on the basis of reports from national members, and that's a weakness if the national government lies. But to suggest they're part of a conspiracy is up there with the people who think the UN is patrolling US airspace with black helicopters.
    It’s a pointless institution- up there with the UN for pointlessness.
    That sounds a bit ridiculous.
    You may claim that it's a flawed organisation, but at the height of a global pandemic anyone should be able to see the point of having a WHO.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,036

    Our bog roll delivery has been pushed back by a week. We should have enough to last.

    Some advice for you.


    The Richard Gere defence I believe?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    Another grim day in France - 1,120 deaths today according to Worldometer after 1,355 yesterday.

    I thought yesterday's was very high because it included som previously excluded non-hospital C-19 deaths. Does the same apply today?
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    Per Worldometer, France had 1,355 deaths yesterday and 1,120 today.

    FT graph doesn't appear to fit with these numbers.

    NB. I know yesterday's number includes non-hospital for more than one day. Is FT just ignoring those deaths? Even if they are, what about today's number? FT shows a number under 500 - a huge discrepancy.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,803

    Can probably do without Queenie Bee waffling on at the fag end of the weekend unless she can put some serious collateral on the table. Buck House as security for thousands of cheap loans to struggling small businesses?

    Could you watch something else? :)
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,915
    ukpaul said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    2 weeks in and people are already grasping for news of its end. Doesn't bode well perhaps.
    Goes against the polls, barely one in twenty thinks this is too much, it’s just more irresponsible press behaviour.


    The absolubte state of that front page. Is Flash the Times Editor ?
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    ABZABZ Posts: 441

    Another grim day in France - 1,120 deaths today according to Worldometer after 1,355 yesterday.

    I thought yesterday's was very high because it included som previously excluded non-hospital C-19 deaths. Does the same apply today?

    Yes. It's the residue. Deaths today in hospitals was ~600.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,940
    GIN1138 said:

    Can probably do without Queenie Bee waffling on at the fag end of the weekend unless she can put some serious collateral on the table. Buck House as security for thousands of cheap loans to struggling small businesses?

    Could you watch something else? :)
    I certainly won’t be watching it. I’m simply requesting she proposes something useful!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    geoffw said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    Whether Sweden's heterodoxy succeeds, they deserve respect for following their own path in an open and reasoned way. Whether or not they succeed they will have given all of us a lesson for the future.

    563 new cases in Sweden today, 50 new deaths.
    For a country with a population of 10 million.
    Brave no lockdown it maybe but it would be Sir Humphrey stating that.

    However if Sweden does not move much beyond the average increase per head and given it has not tested much relatively either and has few incubators per head it would just say the Government can do sod all to limit the impact of coronavirus
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Quite so, but they will not have damaged their economy to the extent elsewhere. It's a balance. No-one knows yet who has got it right.

    No and if Sweden does come out of this relatively unscathed healthwise as well as economically Sweden will ironically be lionised by the libertarian right
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    Pulpstar said:

    ukpaul said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    2 weeks in and people are already grasping for news of its end. Doesn't bode well perhaps.
    Goes against the polls, barely one in twenty thinks this is too much, it’s just more irresponsible press behaviour.


    The absolubte state of that front page. Is Flash the Times Editor ?
    Sir Malcolm Sargent?

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2020

    Can probably do without Queenie Bee waffling on at the fag end of the weekend unless she can put some serious collateral on the table. Buck House as security for thousands of cheap loans to struggling small businesses?

    Not possible, the Queen does not own Buckingham Palace personally, it is held in trust effectively by the Crown Estate for the Head of State of the day. The Queen is merely a tenant
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,036

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    I agree.

    It's amazing how the West has largely abandoned many of the institutions it created.
    That's a seriously bonkers article. Yes, WHO gets funding from every member - the US, Britain, China, and everyone else. Nobody has up to now questioned their impartiality. It does work on the basis of reports from national members, and that's a weakness if the national government lies. But to suggest they're part of a conspiracy is up there with the people who think the UN is patrolling US airspace with black helicopters.
    It’s a pointless institution- up there with the UN for pointlessness.
    That sounds a bit ridiculous.
    You may claim that it's a flawed organisation, but at the height of a global pandemic anyone should be able to see the point of having a WHO.
    Baby steps, at least Harry has stopped whining about the commie NHS.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    ABZ said:

    Another grim day in France - 1,120 deaths today according to Worldometer after 1,355 yesterday.

    I thought yesterday's was very high because it included som previously excluded non-hospital C-19 deaths. Does the same apply today?

    Yes. It's the residue. Deaths today in hospitals was ~600.
    Ah ok thanks - still grim of course but more understandable.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    geoffw said:

    fpt

    On China and the WHO:

    Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors—unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/02/china-coronavirus-who-health-soft-power/

    see also, among others:
    https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/

    There we go.

    Just as I said.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,915

    Lockdown with rising temperatures leading to greater consumption of refreshing cold drinks. What could go wrong? Apart from rising domestic violence?

    There are also whispers that capacity strain is moving from the NHS to funeral directors.

    What capacity strain? There are over 5,000 empty critical beds in London
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    edited April 2020
    ABZ said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:
    US and Spain and France already are in terms of increase in cases and deaths, per capita Sweden and the Netherlands will be too

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    Great. We’re only going to be in the top 5 in the western world.
    About right given we are the 5th largest economy in the western world and China is covering up its figures
    Don't start that again... :s
    Absolutely - not sure we need more of that! Regarding the exit strategy, which is where the government will really earn their corn, have you heard any whispers? Or is the goal to just get through the next week or two?

    Realistically, I think we will not get the virus to zero anywhere, but can control its spread (i.e., no hard lockdown) with much higher throughput testing, smart contact tracing and hopefully a better understanding of how to treat patients who do get infected. Are the medics in the NHS already getting more insight on this last front? For example, when to give oxygen / drugs - or is that still too soon?
    No, I don't have any knowledge of the next steps after the peak, but certainly testing and contact tracing are going to be key. Hancock is an App enthusiast so I suspect something like the Korean App.

    I hear a lot of pessimism about treatment. All sorts of things are tried out of desperation, but people keep on dying. We have no way of controlling this apart from century old public health measures.

    In time I think convalescent serum, and synthetic antibodies will be the best bet until we get a vaccine. In the meantime...
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    eadric said:

    But there was a big cluster around the market soon after patient zero.

    So my explanation still makes sense.

    But perhaps not because of what was sold at the market but because of who shopped there, which seems to be the suspicion of the people saying "where are the bats?"


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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,803
    Who's the sensible lady in an orange shawl at Trump's presser?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    Andy_JS said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    If this is true I don't know what the consequences might be.
    I want to see credible sources confirming this first before I believe it.

    But it should be obvious that China has a massive national interest in a huge disinformation campaign here. And that's before you get onto their cultural obsession in government and business of saving face.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    isam said:

    Lockdown with rising temperatures leading to greater consumption of refreshing cold drinks. What could go wrong? Apart from rising domestic violence?

    There are also whispers that capacity strain is moving from the NHS to funeral directors.

    What capacity strain? There are over 5,000 empty critical beds in London
    Counting the Nightingale?

    The problem of capacity in ICU is that people are not being discharged at the rate that they are arriving, and they need ventilating for weeks. Those beds are going to fill fast.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Iain Dale's recommended Shadow Cabinet for Starmer if he wins tomorrow

    Leader: Sir Keir Starmer
    Deputy Leader: Angela Rayner
    Home Office: Yvette Cooper
    Chancellor: Rachel Reeves
    Foreign: Emily Thornberry
    Transport: Andy McDonald
    Justice: Lucy Powell
    Work and Pensions: Jess Phillips
    Environment: Lisa Nandy
    Business: Angela Eagle
    Education: Stella Creasy
    Health: Rosena Allin-Khan
    DCMS: Tracey Brabin
    Women & Equalities: Debbie Abrahams
    International Development: Matthew Pennycook
    Leader of the House: Meg Hillier
    Leader of the Lords: Angela Smith
    Communities & Local Govt: Liz Kendall
    Cabinet Office: Andrew Gwynne
    Defence: Jonathan Ashworth
    Party Chair: Stephen Kinnock
    International Trade: Seema Malhotra
    Northern Ireland: Louise Haigh
    Employment: Anneliese Dodds
    Wales: Stephen Doughty
    Scotland: Ian Murray
    Chief Secretary: Jonathan Reynolds
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2020/04/iain-dale-which-starmer-will-we-get-as-labours-new-leader-this-weekend-radical-starmer-or-safety-first-starmer.html
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    eadric said:
    Looks like it could be. Worst in Europe will be tough to explain away no matter the reasons.
    The strategy was clear 2 weeks ago....the Govt approach will be to blame the people for not staying in doors as they said......
    Either you have a lockdown or you don’t. We have ended up in the middle of fuckwhere.

    Lose the economy AND lose 10,000s of lives. Worse than any of our neighbours.

    They will never be forgiven.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    It's all about R.

    No lockdown means R is 3 (give or take).

    A Wuhan-style lockdown, where only one person from each household is allowed out, perhaps twice a week, to buy groceries. And where the definition of essential work is incredibly tightly defined. And everyone outside the house needs to wear masks probably sees R come down to 0.1-0.2 very quickly. You can infect your flatmates or family... and that's about it.

    A semiserious lockdown still ends up with an R of less than 1. I suspect we'll end up at 0.3, 0.4. Which means that infections tail off. Just not as rapidly. So you need to have it for longer.
This discussion has been closed.