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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A party fit for purpose

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A party fit for purpose

Labour has a new leader. And soon a new Shadow Cabinet. Starmer will not be short of advice, most of it unasked for. Momentum have already started. Would that Starmer gives them the answer Attlee gave Harold Laski: “A period of silence from you would be most welcome.” If not, perhaps a link to this tongue lashing from Alan Johnson would do. 

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    First which sadly Labour still won't be after the next election
  • Options
    2nd, like Becky Bibbly-Bobbly
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    edited April 2020
    Second like Labour
    Third like Lisa Nandy
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,804
    edited April 2020
    My question.

    Why should person C be released from lockdown here, when she lived with a brother who developed symptoms 2 days ago?

    Photo link deleted. Just look on the government sheet....
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Scott_xP said:
    The first question is sadly predictable, after how much they went on about why the PM of all people should get a test.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Scott_xP said:
    I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have taken him in unless there were concerns
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Boris is sicker than the evil Tories are telling you but not sick enough to permit the bed blocking of a real sick normal human ?

    Ok.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    Scott_xP said:
    How's about asking a general polite question about the man's health, followed by asking how testing capacity and PPE acquisition are going?

    Media still having a very bad crisis.
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    Scott_xP said:
    Question 1: he’s the leader of the country, of course he is going to get the top medical treatment. Honestly...
    Another example of dreadful journalism
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK’s lockdown has gone too far, claims Sweden’s leading scientist"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

    Maybe he should concern himself with Sweden
    I'm more surprised he would specifically comment on ours, it's not as though others have not gone as far as us, or further.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    Difficult for Starmer to go the Boris route, given the unity themes of his campaign - it would not be clear who should be purged or not, whereas with Bojo it was mostly clear who would be for the chop.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK’s lockdown has gone too far, claims Sweden’s leading scientist"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

    Maybe he should concern himself with Sweden
    I'm more surprised he would specifically comment on ours, it's not as though others have not gone as far as us, or further.
    The discussion in Sweden often refers to the UK's policy as an alternative.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,867
    I don't think it's an unreasonable question

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1247123153790386177
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,437

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    I understand what you’re saying Alastair but the man only went into hospital last night. I think they do need to keep us abreast of what is happening but I’m not sure, for instance, hourly updates are going to do anything other than continue to fuel the media fire.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't think it's an unreasonable question

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1247123153790386177

    It's not entirely unreasonable, but it isn't necessary to appoint a stand in PM either since Cabinet know who has been earmarked to lead things in the event Boris is unavailable.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK’s lockdown has gone too far, claims Sweden’s leading scientist"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

    Maybe he should concern himself with Sweden
    I'm more surprised he would specifically comment on ours, it's not as though others have not gone as far as us, or further.
    The discussion in Sweden often refers to the UK's policy as an alternative.
    Yes, but why is that when our policy is not unique nor the most extreme lockdown?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    I understand what you’re saying Alastair but the man only went into hospital last night. I think they do need to keep us abreast of what is happening but I’m not sure, for instance, hourly updates are going to do anything other than continue to fuel the media fire.
    They’re going down the Soviet “heavy cold” route. Candour would fan the flames less.
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    An excellent paper, independent modelling from that of Imperial. I haven't seen it linked here before.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049908v1.full.pdf

    --AS
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,251

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    I understand what you’re saying Alastair but the man only went into hospital last night. I think they do need to keep us abreast of what is happening but I’m not sure, for instance, hourly updates are going to do anything other than continue to fuel the media fire.
    They’re going down the Soviet “heavy cold” route. Candour would fan the flames less.
    What would regard you as candour? A copy of his chart? a webcam in his room?
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    He needs to stay off the smoked mackerel. That's what finished off Chernenko.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    I understand what you’re saying Alastair but the man only went into hospital last night. I think they do need to keep us abreast of what is happening but I’m not sure, for instance, hourly updates are going to do anything other than continue to fuel the media fire.
    They’re going down the Soviet “heavy cold” route. Candour would fan the flames less.
    What would regard you as candour? A copy of his chart? a webcam in his room?
    Starting by acknowledging he’s seriously ill and not just conducting an impromptu tour of hospital wards.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,251
    I like the idea that the Premier League football players are all concerned about a reduction in the tax paid to the Treasury.

    No premier league footballer has ever been involved in schemes to reduce their tax bills, after all. No, wait...

    https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-21/record-number-of-footballers-under-investigation-by-hmrc-over-tax-avoidance/
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,077
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK’s lockdown has gone too far, claims Sweden’s leading scientist"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

    Maybe he should concern himself with Sweden
    I'm more surprised he would specifically comment on ours, it's not as though others have not gone as far as us, or further.
    The discussion in Sweden often refers to the UK's policy as an alternative.
    Yes, but why is that when our policy is not unique nor the most extreme lockdown?
    Is that because Sweden views the UK as more culturally similar than France, Italy, or Spain?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    I understand what you’re saying Alastair but the man only went into hospital last night. I think they do need to keep us abreast of what is happening but I’m not sure, for instance, hourly updates are going to do anything other than continue to fuel the media fire.
    They’re going down the Soviet “heavy cold” route. Candour would fan the flames less.
    What would regard you as candour? A copy of his chart? a webcam in his room?
    Starting by acknowledging he’s seriously ill and not just conducting an impromptu tour of hospital wards.
    Do we know he is, or is this speculation? Persistent symptoms doesn't necessarily mean he is seriously ill.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    kle4 said:

    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK’s lockdown has gone too far, claims Sweden’s leading scientist"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

    Maybe he should concern himself with Sweden
    I'm more surprised he would specifically comment on ours, it's not as though others have not gone as far as us, or further.
    The discussion in Sweden often refers to the UK's policy as an alternative.
    Yes, but why is that when our policy is not unique nor the most extreme lockdown?
    They often reference the UK as a comparator in other matters too. Perhaps because they see us as more like them than other European types.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,251

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    I understand what you’re saying Alastair but the man only went into hospital last night. I think they do need to keep us abreast of what is happening but I’m not sure, for instance, hourly updates are going to do anything other than continue to fuel the media fire.
    They’re going down the Soviet “heavy cold” route. Candour would fan the flames less.
    What would regard you as candour? A copy of his chart? a webcam in his room?
    Starting by acknowledging he’s seriously ill and not just conducting an impromptu tour of hospital wards.
    The official statement is that he was admitted as a precaution. Why is that wrong?
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,251
    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    ex-Labour people voting for a Remainer = Sanity
    ex-Conservatives voting for a Leaver = EvulGammonRacists

    Do keep up.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    No, so what?
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    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    He needs to immediately get rid of anyone who is within 6 feet of the antisemitism claims, particularly the leaked JLM submission, under cover of COVID, so the EHRC have nothing left to conclude.

    I don't like Dodds, and you can't have her vs Sunak.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Scott_xP said:
    I think that has already begun, with Raab leading the Covid-19 meeting this morning.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't think it's an unreasonable question

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1247123153790386177

    But that has already been factored in - Raab has been announced as taking over should health prevent Boris from carrying out all his duties. This is just young Lewis trying to raise his own profile.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,437
    Scott_xP said:
    I think he probably should. It’s not ideal to be fighting a bad bout of this and trying to carry on as normal. I want him to get better and if he needs to rest up for a week or so to get this behind him he should do so.
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Scott_xP said:
    More like 'amid tidal wave of shit piled on by illiterate journalists'.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    Scott_xP said:
    So, Raab's hosting of this morning's COBR meeting and this afternoon's press conference (and presumably many more meetings in the interim) isn't "taking over"?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    I am still interested as to what the standard hospital treatment is for someone struggling with coronavirus.

    We know that they are monitored, and we know that their breathing is supported with oxygen and ventilation to a greater or lesser degree.

    Is there anything else? Vitamins and minerals on a drip? Any of the existing drugs that have been mentioned? It would be fascinating to hear how the treatment of this is developing in real time.

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    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Scott_xP said:
    This is transparently very serious. Number ten should be much more candid. Even those like me who loathe what the Prime Minister stands for wish him a speedy recovery. And the public needs to know how the country is being run just now.
    I understand what you’re saying Alastair but the man only went into hospital last night. I think they do need to keep us abreast of what is happening but I’m not sure, for instance, hourly updates are going to do anything other than continue to fuel the media fire.
    They’re going down the Soviet “heavy cold” route. Candour would fan the flames less.
    What would regard you as candour? A copy of his chart? a webcam in his room?
    Starting by acknowledging he’s seriously ill and not just conducting an impromptu tour of hospital wards.
    dull what
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    An excellent paper, independent modelling from that of Imperial. I haven't seen it linked here before.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049908v1.full.pdf

    --AS

    "In a scenario where “lockdown”-type interventions were put in place to reduce transmission, these interventions would need to be in place for a large proportion of the coming year in order to prevent healthcare demand exceeding availability"

    Well thanks for that, guys....
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,141
    edited April 2020
    Re the options in the Header, Starmer has already chosen. He's doing Unity. No purges but equally no big jobs for either the hard left or the hard centrists. It's going to be, and I do hate this phrase, Soft Left. Great if that means innovative and practical new policies which junk the 1970s but retain the radicalism. The Corona New Deal. Not so great if it's a return to timidity. If we as Labour are not frightening a few people we are not doing it properly. It just has to be the right people.
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    edited April 2020

    I am still interested as to what the standard hospital treatment is for someone struggling with coronavirus.

    We know that they are monitored, and we know that their breathing is supported with oxygen and ventilation to a greater or lesser degree.

    Is there anything else? Vitamins and minerals on a drip? Any of the existing drugs that have been mentioned? It would be fascinating to hear how the treatment of this is developing in real time.

    At Bournemouth Hospital they are trialing the HIV and Malaria combination
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    No, so what?
    The people happy to see others rejoining to vote Starmer or Nandy, or rejoining themselves to do so, were the ones who viewed the Tories who rejoined to vote Boris ‘entryists’, I reckon
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,973
    The Fifth horseman of parade cancellation has turned up. 'Tis verily the end of days.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814
    Bearing in mind how suspect the data is at the best of times, I've done an update after all.

    Dashed lines emphasise where the data is already known or strongly suspected to be non-comparable or unreliable for comparisons (eg France releasing a swathe of care home deaths; Sweden having a regular weekend pause in deaths, etc).

    X shows where each country on the graph instituted lockdowns (to varying degrees, however).

    Please view all data as questionable - but broad trends may be indicative (such as the levelling off of the lines for Italy and Spain)

  • Options

    An excellent paper, independent modelling from that of Imperial. I haven't seen it linked here before.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049908v1.full.pdf

    --AS

    "In a scenario where “lockdown”-type interventions were put in place to reduce transmission, these interventions would need to be in place for a large proportion of the coming year in order to prevent healthcare demand exceeding availability"

    Well thanks for that, guys....
    Yes, it's a similar to conclusion to Ferguson's simulation, but by somewhat different methods. However all these results depend heavily on the proportion of asymptomatic cases (and their infectiousness), and the effectiveness of the lockdowns/social distancing, and there is probably more potential for good surprises than bad ones in this area. Similarly fatality rates. I am hopeful that in a few weeks we'll see these models being re-run with more favourable inputs. Let's hope.

    In their model with 5000-bed lockdown trigger, it was only in place for 35% of the time until end 2021; however, in that situation their model has a median of 130k deaths (which is actually the same as for no lockdowns at all -- the effect is to spread the cases to keep peak ICU requirements barely manageable).

    --AS
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    No, so what?
    The people happy to see others rejoining to vote Starmer or Nandy, or rejoining themselves to do so, were the ones who viewed the Tories who rejoined to vote Boris ‘entryists’, I reckon
    Entryism is of course viewed as good or bad depending on who is doing it and why, I thought that was taken as given. A bunch of never labour voting trots might be viewed differently than former party members. Ir not depending on what side of the divide.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Bearing in mind how suspect the data is at the best of times, I've done an update after all.

    Dashed lines emphasise where the data is already known or strongly suspected to be non-comparable or unreliable for comparisons (eg France releasing a swathe of care home deaths; Sweden having a regular weekend pause in deaths, etc).

    X shows where each country on the graph instituted lockdowns (to varying degrees, however).

    Please view all data as questionable - but broad trends may be indicative (such as the levelling off of the lines for Italy and Spain)

    Almost 10^100 deaths in the UK alone? Bloody hell.

    Ah, my coat. :)
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818
    Floater said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have taken him in unless there were concerns
    Yes and why 8pm on a Sunday night, if minor it would have been left till morning.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,292
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    No, so what?
    The people happy to see others rejoining to vote Starmer or Nandy, or rejoining themselves to do so, were the ones who viewed the Tories who rejoined to vote Boris ‘entryists’, I reckon
    I don't think the Boris vote was ever the problem. It was the entryists who joined to expel long-standing Conservatives who were desperate to prevent a dangerous and ideologically driven hard Brexit that were scary.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,973
    edited April 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    More like 'amid tidal wave of shit piled on by illiterate journalists'.
    It's all the press's fault!

    Any chance a wee bit of blame could be assigned to the Yellow Peril? Perhaps they've brainwashed the hacks à la The Manchurian Candidate.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,936

    An excellent paper, independent modelling from that of Imperial. I haven't seen it linked here before.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049908v1.full.pdf

    --AS

    That is very bleak. 6 months of lockdowns over the next 18 months based on a 5000 ICU bed lockdown trigger, peaking at about 12k beds required.

    Seems to say we have the choice between many, many deaths on the one hand, or completely bankrupting ourselves and destryoying the economy (and the tax base, and, by proxy, the NHS) on the other.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,116
    edited April 2020
    OK, if we have any lawyers on here willing to stick their necks out, I have a question. Not vital, but I’m puzzled by some features of it.

    A shall we say, hypothetical local business is putting its staff on furlough. It notified them of this last week, giving various start dates for different people. Today was the last date by which time all but two people (the MD and his secretary) should be furloughed.

    However, he is also ordering staff to sign an eight-point variation in their contracts, confirming they have been placed on furlough. This variation also gives him the power to unilaterally cut staff salaries or hours and also to make people instantly redundant with just statutory redundancy pay. He did not consult, he sent it out and gave staff 72 hours to sign it.

    To compound matters he then put the wrong dates on it, so he has had to reissue it today - having ordered all staff to go on furlough from midnight last night.

    So a few questions:

    1) Does he need this variation? Or is notifying staff they have been out on furlough sufficient?

    2) Can he compel staff to sign it, given they are on furlough?

    3) If he does compel them to sign it, does that mean they are not on furlough?

    4) If he sacks anyone for refusing to sign it, is he acting lawfully?

    This particular individual has history in breaking contract law - two months ago he sacked somebody who had been there for six years, claiming he had only a temporary rolling contract, and he’s been known to falsify references - but everyone’s understandably leery of refusing to sign as what recourse would they have with all the courts shut?

    Has anyone come across a case like this? Asking for a friend.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    I am sure it has been posted before, but...

    https://twitter.com/RichardBurgon/status/1247095535296798721?s=20
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    You'd think they could at least parade from home over Zoom
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited April 2020

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    No, so what?
    The people happy to see others rejoining to vote Starmer or Nandy, or rejoining themselves to do so, were the ones who viewed the Tories who rejoined to vote Boris ‘entryists’, I reckon
    I don't think the Boris vote was ever the problem. It was the entryists who joined to expel long-standing Conservatives who were desperate to prevent a dangerous and ideologically driven hard Brexit that were scary.
    True, it was more that I think. But those people were more ‘lapsed Tory members’ than ‘entryists’
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    kyf_100 said:

    An excellent paper, independent modelling from that of Imperial. I haven't seen it linked here before.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049908v1.full.pdf

    --AS

    That is very bleak. 6 months of lockdowns over the next 18 months based on a 5000 ICU bed lockdown trigger, peaking at about 12k beds required.

    Seems to say we have the choice between many, many deaths on the one hand, or completely bankrupting ourselves and destryoying the economy (and the tax base, and, by proxy, the NHS) on the other.

    Do these studies account for increases in ICU capacity, and testing capacity which may be very useful at suppressing future outbreaks? If you can test several hundred thousand in a day, you may be able to keep a lid on future outbreaks.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,292
    This guy seems to be the most Panglossian of medical pundits. I hope he's right, but how much authority does he have in this field?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited April 2020

    You'd think they could at least parade from home over Zoom
    Perhaps they are worried about the risk of an IRA zoombombing campaign.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,579
    If only the Number 10 press conference journalists would listen to the journalists at Sturgeon’s pressers - simple direct questions leaving no wriggle room (which in fairness she handles well).
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    If only the Number 10 press conference journalists would listen to the journalists at Sturgeon’s pressers - simple direct questions leaving no wriggle room (which in fairness she handles well).

    Na, they'll be too busy asking if Boris deserves a hospital bed or not.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,116
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't think it's an unreasonable question

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1247123153790386177

    If the answer’s Dominic Raab, I’ll go with ‘no.’
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    ydoethur said:

    OK, if we have any lawyers on here willing to stick their necks out, I have a question. Not vital, but I’m puzzled by some features of it.

    A shall we say, hypothetical local business is putting its staff on furlough. It notified them of this last week, giving various start dates for different people. Today was the last date by which time all but two people (the MD and his secretary) should be furloughed.

    However, he is also ordering staff to sign an eight-point variation in their contracts, confirming they have been placed on furlough. This variation also gives him the power to unilaterally cut staff salaries or hours and also to make people instantly redundant with just statutory redundancy pay. He did not consult, he sent it out and gave staff 72 hours to sign it.

    To compound matters he then put the wrong dates on it, so he has had to reissue it today - having ordered all staff to go on furlough from midnight last night.

    So a few questions:

    1) Does he need this variation? Or is notifying staff they have been out on furlough sufficient?

    2) Can he compel staff to sign it, given they are on furlough?

    3) If he does compel them to sign it, does that mean they are not on furlough?

    4) If he sacks anyone for refusing to sign it, is he acting lawfully?

    This particular individual has history in breaking contract law - two months ago he sacked somebody who had been there for six years, claiming he had only a temporary rolling contract, and he’s been known to falsify references - but everyone’s understandably leery of refusing to sign as what recourse would they have with all the courts shut?

    Has anyone come across a case like this? Asking for a friend.

    Sounds like employment lawyers are going to have a busy year!
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Scott_xP said:
    More like 'amid tidal wave of shit piled on by illiterate journalists'.
    It's all the press's fault!

    Any chance a wee bit of blame could be assigned to the Yellow Peril? Perhaps they've brainwashed the hacks à la The Manchurian Candidate.
    It is not all the fault of the press. But there has been a lot of irresponsible behaviour on the part of too many journalists. There has been too much revelling in the crisis and not enough done to properly inform and help educate.

    I would love to have a media that set aside opinion pieces and had a focus on reporting facts and asking pertinent questions in a timely fashion.

    But that is never going to happen. Sadly.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,115
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    No, so what?
    The people happy to see others rejoining to vote Starmer or Nandy, or rejoining themselves to do so, were the ones who viewed the Tories who rejoined to vote Boris ‘entryists’, I reckon
    Following your argument there'd be no such thing as entryism, ever.

    The difference between the two situations is that the Labour leadership candidates appealed to non-members to join up to support them, whereas there was an external organisation that encouraged people to join the Tories to vote for Boris (and deselect sitting MPs who had supported Remain).

    However, in the Tory case the external organisation does not appear to have the continuing control of its adherents to take over the party in full, and Johnson is not himself a member of that external organisation, so it's not a classical case of entryism, but it's not far off either.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    You'd think they could at least parade from home over Zoom

    Not much point for them unless they're physically tramping through Catholic areas. Virtual doesn't cut it.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    edited April 2020

    If only the Number 10 press conference journalists would listen to the journalists at Sturgeon’s pressers - simple direct questions leaving no wriggle room (which in fairness she handles well).

    She's wobbling now - ITV's Peter Smith and Sky putting the boot in.

    Whole conference focussing on her judgement- not Covid.

    Link https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-52097887
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Scott_xP said:
    More like 'amid tidal wave of shit piled on by illiterate journalists'.
    It's all the press's fault!

    Any chance a wee bit of blame could be assigned to the Yellow Peril? Perhaps they've brainwashed the hacks à la The Manchurian Candidate.
    Seriously, if you want to leave, just leave already. No one cares.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    On topic, I think there's a decent way to split the difference on this which is to do "unity" but come down like a ton of bricks on anti-Semitism, and let anyone who doesn't like that purge themselves.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,973

    You'd think they could at least parade from home over Zoom
    They just can't get the raw tang of triumphalism as they march past Catholic churches on Zoom, and gobbing at a priest on a screen just isn't the same.
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    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649

    kle4 said:

    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK’s lockdown has gone too far, claims Sweden’s leading scientist"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

    Maybe he should concern himself with Sweden
    I'm more surprised he would specifically comment on ours, it's not as though others have not gone as far as us, or further.
    The discussion in Sweden often refers to the UK's policy as an alternative.
    Yes, but why is that when our policy is not unique nor the most extreme lockdown?
    Is that because Sweden views the UK as more culturally similar than France, Italy, or Spain?
    I think it’s because the UK approach is closer to Sweden than other European states. It’s seen as the slightly less open alternative, as opposed to the more strict lockdowns of places like Italy, Spain, Austria etc.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    Tens of thousands of ex Labour members rejoining to vote Starmer and prevent continuity Corbyn. Is there a name for that?

    When tens of thousands of ex Tory members rejoined to vote for Boris rather than continuity Remain, it was called entryism...

    Is there a difference?

    No, so what?
    The people happy to see others rejoining to vote Starmer or Nandy, or rejoining themselves to do so, were the ones who viewed the Tories who rejoined to vote Boris ‘entryists’, I reckon
    Following your argument there'd be no such thing as entryism, ever.

    The difference between the two situations is that the Labour leadership candidates appealed to non-members to join up to support them, whereas there was an external organisation that encouraged people to join the Tories to vote for Boris (and deselect sitting MPs who had supported Remain).

    However, in the Tory case the external organisation does not appear to have the continuing control of its adherents to take over the party in full, and Johnson is not himself a member of that external organisation, so it's not a classical case of entryism, but it's not far off either.
    Given that much of UKIP/BXP consisted of ex-Tories, it is not entryism but re-entryism, which is Isam's point.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,579
    BBC News at One - Number 10 door didn’t open automatically for Raab - he had to knock....then wait....
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK’s lockdown has gone too far, claims Sweden’s leading scientist"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

    Maybe he should concern himself with Sweden
    I'm more surprised he would specifically comment on ours, it's not as though others have not gone as far as us, or further.
    The discussion in Sweden often refers to the UK's policy as an alternative.
    Reading comments from a few Swedes they are saying many are effectively in a de facto Lockdown.

    Also the main joke in Sweden about having to be 2m from each other was "That's a lot closer than normal!"
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Barbara Keeley stepds down as shadow minister for mental health

    https://twitter.com/KeeleyMP/status/1247126760921141255?s=20
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    ydoethur said:

    OK, if we have any lawyers on here willing to stick their necks out, I have a question. Not vital, but I’m puzzled by some features of it.

    A shall we say, hypothetical local business is putting its staff on furlough. It notified them of this last week, giving various start dates for different people. Today was the last date by which time all but two people (the MD and his secretary) should be furloughed.

    However, he is also ordering staff to sign an eight-point variation in their contracts, confirming they have been placed on furlough. This variation also gives him the power to unilaterally cut staff salaries or hours and also to make people instantly redundant with just statutory redundancy pay. He did not consult, he sent it out and gave staff 72 hours to sign it.

    To compound matters he then put the wrong dates on it, so he has had to reissue it today - having ordered all staff to go on furlough from midnight last night.

    So a few questions:

    1) Does he need this variation? Or is notifying staff they have been out on furlough sufficient?

    2) Can he compel staff to sign it, given they are on furlough?

    3) If he does compel them to sign it, does that mean they are not on furlough?

    4) If he sacks anyone for refusing to sign it, is he acting lawfully?

    This particular individual has history in breaking contract law - two months ago he sacked somebody who had been there for six years, claiming he had only a temporary rolling contract, and he’s been known to falsify references - but everyone’s understandably leery of refusing to sign as what recourse would they have with all the courts shut?

    Has anyone come across a case like this? Asking for a friend.

    What the employer is proposing is very unusual. That, I think, is grounds alone for why "some people of in the Internet said" is, unfortunately, not going to cut it. A proper lawyer (I'm guess no workplace rep) is needed.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,973

    Scott_xP said:
    More like 'amid tidal wave of shit piled on by illiterate journalists'.
    It's all the press's fault!

    Any chance a wee bit of blame could be assigned to the Yellow Peril? Perhaps they've brainwashed the hacks à la The Manchurian Candidate.
    Seriously, if you want to leave, just leave already. No one cares.
    Why thank you. If only you had a smidgeon of influence we could get this thing done.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,116

    BBC News at One - Number 10 door didn’t open automatically for Raab - he had to knock....then wait....

    Metaphor for his premiership?

    I nearly said he needs to wait for Johnson to be knocked off, but then I realised there was a double meaning there.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,867
    BoZo giving the impression that he thinks he is more important than good government.

    He always thought that of course.
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    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo giving the impression that he thinks he is more important than good government.

    He always thought that of course.

    dull what
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Scott_xP said:
    We knew this last night. Mason needs to stay up to date rather than trying to claim something new.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo giving the impression that he thinks he is more important than good government.

    He always thought that of course.

    Patient reads in hospital outrage...

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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,867
    TGOHF666 said:

    Patient reads in hospital outrage...

    Box of infected paper sent back to heart of Government daily...
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    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    ydoethur said:

    OK, if we have any lawyers on here willing to stick their necks out, I have a question. Not vital, but I’m puzzled by some features of it.

    A shall we say, hypothetical local business is putting its staff on furlough. It notified them of this last week, giving various start dates for different people. Today was the last date by which time all but two people (the MD and his secretary) should be furloughed.

    However, he is also ordering staff to sign an eight-point variation in their contracts, confirming they have been placed on furlough. This variation also gives him the power to unilaterally cut staff salaries or hours and also to make people instantly redundant with just statutory redundancy pay. He did not consult, he sent it out and gave staff 72 hours to sign it.

    To compound matters he then put the wrong dates on it, so he has had to reissue it today - having ordered all staff to go on furlough from midnight last night.

    So a few questions:

    1) Does he need this variation? Or is notifying staff they have been out on furlough sufficient?

    2) Can he compel staff to sign it, given they are on furlough?

    3) If he does compel them to sign it, does that mean they are not on furlough?

    4) If he sacks anyone for refusing to sign it, is he acting lawfully?

    This particular individual has history in breaking contract law - two months ago he sacked somebody who had been there for six years, claiming he had only a temporary rolling contract, and he’s been known to falsify references - but everyone’s understandably leery of refusing to sign as what recourse would they have with all the courts shut?

    Has anyone come across a case like this? Asking for a friend.

    What the employer is proposing is very unusual. That, I think, is grounds alone for why "some people of in the Internet said" is, unfortunately, not going to cut it. A proper lawyer (I'm guess no workplace rep) is needed.
    From my reading furloughing someone does require an amendment to the contract unless you are paying them 100%. Beyond that you need a lawyer as what you want to know is if the clauses are legally binding or not.

    Just because a clause is in a contract doesn't mean it's legal
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,498
    Very interesting. Thank you. One of Keir Starmer's dilemmas might be like this. In the old days when Labour was a social democratic party with a loony fringe of Trots and other nutters it was OK to vote for them as a possible party of government. That was then. This is now, when after several years of embarrassing agony, we have come through the experience of what it is like when the Trots, loonies, place men, fascist Left, anti semites and Pyongyang sympathisers actually run the show.

    I would like to be able to vote Labour but won't if they carry on being the party which Burgon, Milne, Pidcock and co can take over again when the time is right, and in which among their paid up membership are hard left old timers who hate their country, loathe democracy and would return us to Jezza world as soon as possible. I doubt if I am alone in feeling this. The reform has to be pretty ruthless and deep if it is to convince democracy loving centrists.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Scott_xP said:
    Best wishes to him for a speedy recovery
This discussion has been closed.