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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The media is getting a lot more critical of the government

One of the challenges for the government is that the lockdown demands an enormous lot of the population as a whole which in return ministers have to give the appearance of competence in the management of this huge crisis.

Read the full story here

OnlyLivingBoy

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

DecrepiterJohnL

Cheltenham is a red herring. Cynics might wonder if it is being stoked up to hide Boris's attendance at Twickers three days earlier.

Nigelb

Goodwill is running out all round...

China’s coronavirus diplomacy has finally pushed Europe too far
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/04/22/asia-pacific/politics-diplomacy-asia-pacific/china-coronavirus-diplomacy-europe/
.... With stock prices tumbling on the coronavirus crisis, countries including Germany that have investment screening regulations have tightened them and extended their scope in response to concerns that China, among others, could take controlling stakes in companies suddenly made vulnerable. EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager suggested in a Financial Times interview that governments go further and buy stakes in companies themselves to stave off the threat of Chinese takeovers.

More far-reaching still are proposals to curb dependence on China, not just for medical supplies but in areas such as battery technology for electric vehicles. EU Trade Commissioner Phil Hogan said last week there’s a need for a discussion “on what it means to be strategically autonomous,” including building “resilient supply chains, based on diversification, acknowledging the simple fact that we will not be able to manufacture everything locally.” Japan already earmarked $2.2 billion from its $1 trillion stimulus package to help its manufacturers shift production away from China.

Without mentioning China, EU trade ministers agreed in an April 16 call on the importance of diversifying to “reduce the reliance on individual countries of supply.” As a first step, Berlin plans state funds and purchase guarantees to start industrial production of millions of surgical and face masks by late summer. China currently exports 25 percent of the world’s face masks....

noneoftheabove

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

DecrepiterJohnL

The government's new PPE tzar needs to get on the phone to some of these new UK suppliers to find out what they can deliver and when, and get some orders in. Since worldwide demand has rocketed, it is futile to depend on existing suppliers who are already working at full capacity.

FeersumEnjineeya

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

Nigelb

If you have the funds, this is still a pretty compelling lay option.

Valerie Jarrett: 'No chance' Michelle Obama will be Biden's VP
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/494009-valerie-jarret-no-chance-michelle-obama-will-be-bidens-vp
The reason why I'm being so unequivocal is that there just simply has never been a time when she's expressed an interest in running for office,” Jarrett said in an interview with The Hill. “She’s not demurring here. She’s not being hard to get. She doesn’t want the job.”...
... “There is a difference between being a public servant and being a politician, and she has no interest in being a politician,” Jarrett said. “Her husband was interested in being both. She’s only interested in the service component.”

FeersumEnjineeya

DecrepiterJohnL said:

The government's new PPE tzar needs to get on the phone to some of these new UK suppliers to find out what they can deliver and when, and get some orders in. Since worldwide demand has rocketed, it is futile to depend on existing suppliers who are already working at full capacity.

Not exactly rocket science, is it?

tlg86

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

But I was still going to work on the tube in Cheltenham week. My parents used the tube on Gold Cup day.

SouthamObserver

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

alex_

Most of these “suppliers” quoted in the press with ever more exaggerated claims aren’t anything of the sort. They are just middlemen, and probably half of them being “supplied” by other middlemen.

felix

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

On topic I'd say the media has been pretty critical from day 1 and has been trying to sow discord and disunity from the start in an attempt to keep the punters buying. The only polling we've seen so far shows the public take a dim view of this. Of course it could change but so many of the stories on the front pages turn out to be plain wrong I wouldn't be so sure.

OldKingCole

Good morning everyone. And a fine bright one it is here.
I might not the best one to comment on Conservative ministers, since I've never voted Tory, but am I the only one to be irritated by the constant assertion, implied or overt, that on all occasions the best possible decisions have been made?

IanB2

Typo; hilt not held

IanB2

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

The illness isn’t renowned for improving breathing....

IanB2

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

And people are at Cheltenham for considerably longer than the typical tube journey, and shouting and cheering loudly, whereas on the tube at least everyone keeps their mouth firmly closed.

tlg86

IanB2 said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

And people are at Cheltenham for considerably longer than the typical tube journey, and shooting and cheering loudly, whereas on the tube at least everyone keeps their mouth firmly closed.

Okay, pubs etc. were still open. My parents said the pubs in London on Gold Cup day were heaving.

OnlyLivingBoy

IanB2 said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

And people are at Cheltenham for considerably longer than the typical tube journey, and shooting and cheering loudly, whereas on the tube at least everyone keeps their mouth firmly closed.

There certainly seems to be circumstantial evidence that it led to a spike in cases. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/21/experts-inquiry-cheltenham-festival-coronavirus-deaths

logical_song

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

On topic I'd say the media has been pretty critical from day 1 and has been trying to sow discord and disunity from the start in an attempt to keep the punters buying. The only polling we've seen so far shows the public take a dim view of this. Of course it could change but so many of the stories on the front pages turn out to be plain wrong I wouldn't be so sure.

He couldn't possibly have been leaned on could he?

BannedinnParis

… and they won't stop until they get a 'scalp'. I mean, we are all aware that the media's approach to this has practically no basis in reality. They got their lockdown and are now looking for the next thing they can get a 'win' from.

ALSO- what felix wrote.

Casino_Royale

FPT - having forgotten to do so yesterday I have now finally sent over £50.

Well done Mike, Robert, TSE and team - and for putting up with some of less than perfect behaviour at times!

Casino_Royale

Nigelb said:

Goodwill is running out all round...

China’s coronavirus diplomacy has finally pushed Europe too far
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/04/22/asia-pacific/politics-diplomacy-asia-pacific/china-coronavirus-diplomacy-europe/
.... With stock prices tumbling on the coronavirus crisis, countries including Germany that have investment screening regulations have tightened them and extended their scope in response to concerns that China, among others, could take controlling stakes in companies suddenly made vulnerable. EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager suggested in a Financial Times interview that governments go further and buy stakes in companies themselves to stave off the threat of Chinese takeovers.

More far-reaching still are proposals to curb dependence on China, not just for medical supplies but in areas such as battery technology for electric vehicles. EU Trade Commissioner Phil Hogan said last week there’s a need for a discussion “on what it means to be strategically autonomous,” including building “resilient supply chains, based on diversification, acknowledging the simple fact that we will not be able to manufacture everything locally.” Japan already earmarked $2.2 billion from its $1 trillion stimulus package to help its manufacturers shift production away from China.

Without mentioning China, EU trade ministers agreed in an April 16 call on the importance of diversifying to “reduce the reliance on individual countries of supply.” As a first step, Berlin plans state funds and purchase guarantees to start industrial production of millions of surgical and face masks by late summer. China currently exports 25 percent of the world’s face masks....

Excellent. China has next to zero trust in its bank account, and is fundamentally dishonest and manipulative.

Time to choke off the basis of its economic success until it politically reforms.

ydoethur

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

Casino_Royale

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

Not sure that's fair. I agree with you on Raab, Williamson and Patel but I think Hancock has worked hard and is smart.

I suspect he just made a promise that is actually far harder to deliver than thought.

DecrepiterJohnL

OnlyLivingBoy said:

IanB2 said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

And people are at Cheltenham for considerably longer than the typical tube journey, and shooting and cheering loudly, whereas on the tube at least everyone keeps their mouth firmly closed.

There certainly seems to be circumstantial evidence that it led to a spike in cases. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/21/experts-inquiry-cheltenham-festival-coronavirus-deaths

Circumstantial evidence but until Irish doctors say they have seen a spike amongst 15 to 20,000 Irish racegoers returning home from Cheltenham, that is all it is. And while there is cheering at Cheltenham, it is not like at a football match. Seven races a day, a roar at the start, some cheering at the end, and that is it. Say 5 to 10 minutes a day, and mainly outside.

Here for instance is the Gold Cup, the biggest race of the week. Time it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfpxTcqy-G4

isam

Which curve were we on?

https://twitter.com/alistairhaimes/status/1248257238290116610?s=21

ClippP

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

But it´s worse than that, isn´t it? Johnson seems to have gone out of his way to choose the real duffers. Surely there must be some competent people in the ranks of the Tory MPs, mustn´t there?

Casino_Royale

Horse racing seems to me to be one of the sports you might be able to reinstate through social distancing.

You could limit the number of horses in the race - jockeys don't really get closer than 2m to each other anyway, except at the start line which could be spaced - and also insist on having no live spectators.

Behind the scenes stables and stablehands could be managed to ensure separation as well.

Hey presto, you have horse racing again minus some of the atmosphere.

DecrepiterJohnL

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

Hmm. One of those names looks familiar, pb poster-wise.

Dura_Ace

The fatties of LXX Squadron must be enjoying being stuck in the fleshpots of Constantinople for days on end.

OldKingCole

ClippP said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

But it´s worse than that, isn´t it? Johnson seems to have gone out of his way to choose the real duffers. Surely there must be some competent people in the ranks of the Tory MPs, mustn´t there?

I gather Patel's flagship policy, the Immigration Bill, has been pulled.
By whom, I wonder?

fox327

We are still in the early stages of this crisis. Johnson is still on sick leave, and there have been no other changes in the government yet. Most people still have jobs or have been furloughed. Lots of services say that they are resuming in the summer, e.g. dentists, engineer visits at home. This is being treated like a short-term crisis for the moment, but this can't last. The government seem to be putting off any major decisions until they are forced into them. COVID-19 cases seem to be slowly reducing but there is no prospect of the disease being eradicated any time soon. The streets are unnaturally quiet, but I sense that a storm is brewing.

Dura_Ace

OldKingCole said:

ClippP said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

But it´s worse than that, isn´t it? Johnson seems to have gone out of his way to choose the real duffers. Surely there must be some competent people in the ranks of the Tory MPs, mustn´t there?

I gather Patel's flagship policy, the Immigration Bill, has been pulled.
By whom, I wonder?

Johnson has also canned Ben "Swain" Wallace's defence review as well. I suspect it looked a bit spendy.

noneoftheabove

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

Do not people not work at Cheltenham? Make their livelihoods from it? Maybe all the caterers, bookies, hospitality workers, trainers, jockeys, taxis, hotels were all volunteers?

And plenty of people on the tube that week were not doing essential travel, they were tourists, visiting friends, shopping as well - there would have been more of those on the London tube than Cheltenham visitors.

No_Offence_Alan

Casino_Royale said:

Horse racing seems to me to be one of the sports you might be able to reinstate through social distancing.

You could limit the number of horses in the race - jockeys don't really get closer than 2m to each other anyway, except at the start line which could be spaced - and also insist on having no live spectators.

Behind the scenes stables and stablehands could be managed to ensure separation as well.

Hey presto, you have horse racing again minus some of the atmosphere.

Greyhound racing would be even easier - no jockeys!

noneoftheabove

IanB2 said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

And people are at Cheltenham for considerably longer than the typical tube journey, and shouting and cheering loudly, whereas on the tube at least everyone keeps their mouth firmly closed.

People dont keep their mouth firmly closed on the tube, they may not speak to strangers but when they are talking to the person next to them they are close to shouting as the background noise is very high. Beyond that those not speaking still exhale through their mouth, cough and sneeze.

ClippP

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).
What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

Exactly so! They were there when we all but lost the war.

And the present lot are not even that good!

kamski

OldKingCole said:

Good morning everyone. And a fine bright one it is here.
I might not the best one to comment on Conservative ministers, since I've never voted Tory, but am I the only one to be irritated by the constant assertion, implied or overt, that on all occasions the best possible decisions have been made?

Not just irritating (the tone is like someone with no experience of children trying to talk to a toddler), also worrying because it gives the impression of being totally unwilling to listen to any criticism or learn from mistakes.

AlastairMeeks

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

AlastairMeeks

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

I like your description of Sir John Simon. Years ago I was involved in a case where the central figure was a man of whom it was said: “even his best friends don’t like him”.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Meeks, were they ludicrously overpraised?

I've been paying less attention to the news for a while now, so I could've missed it, but most of the Twitter stuff was criticism of the delay to lockdown and condemnation (justified) of letting Cheltenham go ahead, plus the slightly odd fixation with a scheme that hasn't delivered any of the desired equipment (which we seem to have enough of anyway).

isam

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

DecrepiterJohnL

Casino_Royale said:

Horse racing seems to me to be one of the sports you might be able to reinstate through social distancing.

You could limit the number of horses in the race - jockeys don't really get closer than 2m to each other anyway, except at the start line which could be spaced - and also insist on having no live spectators.

Behind the scenes stables and stablehands could be managed to ensure separation as well.

Hey presto, you have horse racing again minus some of the atmosphere.

Ireland's Galway Festival may go ahead behind closed doors. Normally it would boost the local economy by €54 million.
https://www.racingpost.com/news/coronavirus/hammerblow-as-galway-manager-moloney-admits-festival-behind-closed-doors-likely/432138

Whether even that is a good idea PR-wise I am not sure.

AlastairMeeks

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

I didn’t, but Oasis are a really good example.

Still, one better than Tracy Chapman, who had one great album, then the well ran dry.

ydoethur

DecrepiterJohnL said:

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

Hmm. One of those names looks familiar, pb poster-wise.

Sir Samuel Hoare was the subject of George V's only recorded joke. After he was sacked for selling out the Abbysinians in concert with the French, George V commented, 'no more coals to Newcastle, no more Hoares to Paris.'

(I didn't say it was a good joke.)

Laval of course had a more dramatic fate. Hoare ended up in the Lords, Laval ended up in front of a firing squad.

Foxy

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

To be fair, between 1939 and the summer of 1940, things did not go well and many errors were made. Things only got better after the opposition parties were incorporated. Even then mistakes were made, notably the diasastrous Malaysian campaign, Greek and Crete battles, Dieppe raid etc.

isam

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

People like the old masters. The problem with anything contemporary is it hasn’t had time to become an old master.

Mysticrose

An excellent thread. The Government have conducted themselves in a mostly shambolic manner, with occasional flashes of competence.

Whether the public will turn against them is a whole different issue. If we mirror the US then Donald Trump's approval ratings are slumping.

noneoftheabove

OldKingCole said:

Good morning everyone. And a fine bright one it is here.
I might not the best one to comment on Conservative ministers, since I've never voted Tory, but am I the only one to be irritated by the constant assertion, implied or overt, that on all occasions the best possible decisions have been made?

I am also a non Tory voter (not never but rarely and certainly not for Johnson) largely defending the govt, not because I think the best possible decisions have been made, but because I think it is highly unrealistic to expect the best possible decisions to have been taken throughout.

Clearly we have failed relative to Germany on testing, and not been able to explain why.

PPE was always going to be a challenge, even if NHS and care homes had everything they need, then there would still (rightly) be clamour for it to be available for dentists, bus drivers, supermarket staff etc. However much we have there will always be excess demand in this scenario so it will be rationed and those next in line to get it will feel very frustrated and let down.

Its on the timelines and international comparisons that I feel compelled to defend the govt, history is being re-written on the timelines of what happened in March, and international comparisons are rarely objective, the countries and stats picked are chosen to make the govt look bad or good depending on the author.

Mysticrose

No_Offence_Alan said:

Casino_Royale said:

Horse racing seems to me to be one of the sports you might be able to reinstate through social distancing.

You could limit the number of horses in the race - jockeys don't really get closer than 2m to each other anyway, except at the start line which could be spaced - and also insist on having no live spectators.

Behind the scenes stables and stablehands could be managed to ensure separation as well.

Hey presto, you have horse racing again minus some of the atmosphere.

Greyhound racing would be even easier - no jockeys!

Golf presents no issues especially if people play singles. No crowds, obviously but then it's best suited to television.

Fishing should be positively encouraged. I was delighted to see a salmon fisherman out yesterday.

AlastairMeeks

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Meeks, were they ludicrously overpraised?

I've been paying less attention to the news for a while now, so I could've missed it, but most of the Twitter stuff was criticism of the delay to lockdown and condemnation (justified) of letting Cheltenham go ahead, plus the slightly odd fixation with a scheme that hasn't delivered any of the desired equipment (which we seem to have enough of anyway).

To read the newspapers you would have thought Boris Johnson could cure scrofula by his touch.

There was an early sign that the government was stumbling when the Health Minister went down with Covid-19. And the Health Secretary. And the Prime Minister. And the Prime Minister’s partner. And the Chief Medical Officer. At that point it should have been obvious that the government didn’t understand what it was dealing with. But it wasn’t.

DecrepiterJohnL

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

Is not the standard music industry term the contractual obligation album?

alex_

kamski said:

OldKingCole said:

Good morning everyone. And a fine bright one it is here.
I might not the best one to comment on Conservative ministers, since I've never voted Tory, but am I the only one to be irritated by the constant assertion, implied or overt, that on all occasions the best possible decisions have been made?

Not just irritating (the tone is like someone with no experience of children trying to talk to a toddler), also worrying because it gives the impression of being totally unwilling to listen to any criticism or learn from mistakes.

On the other hand what do you expect given the way the press will report even slight admissions of error? “MINISTER ADMITS MISTAKE. EXPERTS SAY THIS COST THOUSANDS OF LIVES. HEADS MUST ROLL”. It’s the same reason we’re not getting any mature public discussion of relaxation of “lockdown”, with pros and cons. Even hint at an option of relaxation in two to three weeks (even to dismiss it) “OUT IN TWO weeks” or at the other extreme “LOCKED DOWN FOR A YEAR” etc etc

ydoethur

AlastairMeeks said:

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

I like your description of Sir John Simon. Years ago I was involved in a case where the central figure was a man of whom it was said: “even his best friends don’t like him”.

However, ironically he was also one of only three ministers (Churchill and Hankey being the others) who had served in a war cabinet before, as he had been Attorney General (with a cabinet seat, unusually) and then Home Secretary under Asquith.

It wasn't my description, incidentally, it was quoted by Churchill (who was a fine one to talk about traitors to their party). Churchill hated Simon. When he became PM, he elevated Simon to the peerage and made him Lord Chancellor for the duration of the war, but outside the war cabinet. In 1945, in the caretaker government, he retained Simon as Chancellor but out of that same longstanding spite refused to let him attend Cabinet meetings, making him the only Lord Chancellor not to be a member of the Cabinet.

Have a good morning.

Foxy

AlastairMeeks said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Meeks, were they ludicrously overpraised?

I've been paying less attention to the news for a while now, so I could've missed it, but most of the Twitter stuff was criticism of the delay to lockdown and condemnation (justified) of letting Cheltenham go ahead, plus the slightly odd fixation with a scheme that hasn't delivered any of the desired equipment (which we seem to have enough of anyway).

To read the newspapers you would have thought Boris Johnson could cure scrofula by his touch.

There was an early sign that the government was stumbling when the Health Minister went down with Covid-19. And the Health Secretary. And the Prime Minister. And the Prime Minister’s partner. And the Chief Medical Officer. At that point it should have been obvious that the government didn’t understand what it was dealing with. But it wasn’t.

Yes, if ever there was evidence that the governments "wash your hands while singing Happy Birthday" policy was not really working that was it.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Meeks, ah, that was my mistake. Or wisdom.

I didn't pay any attention to the newspapers.

felix

logical_song said:

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

On topic I'd say the media has been pretty critical from day 1 and has been trying to sow discord and disunity from the start in an attempt to keep the punters buying. The only polling we've seen so far shows the public take a dim view of this. Of course it could change but so many of the stories on the front pages turn out to be plain wrong I wouldn't be so sure.

He couldn't possibly have been leaned on could he?

Not likely if he had evidence for his original claim. Of course you can believe whatever you like.

isam

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

I didn’t, but Oasis are a really good example.

Still, one better than Tracy Chapman, who had one great album, then the well ran dry.

She did write a song later on called ‘You’re the one’ which I like

I’m currently, at 5 to 8 in the morning, watching the Classic Albums doc on Dark Side of the Moon for about the 50th time in order to avoid Piers Morgan on GMB (whilst entertaining a 5 month old baby) Great doc about a great album

noneoftheabove

alex_ said:

kamski said:

OldKingCole said:

Good morning everyone. And a fine bright one it is here.
I might not the best one to comment on Conservative ministers, since I've never voted Tory, but am I the only one to be irritated by the constant assertion, implied or overt, that on all occasions the best possible decisions have been made?

Not just irritating (the tone is like someone with no experience of children trying to talk to a toddler), also worrying because it gives the impression of being totally unwilling to listen to any criticism or learn from mistakes.

On the other hand what do you expect given the way the press will report even slight admissions of error? “MINISTER ADMITS MISTAKE. EXPERTS SAY THIS COST THOUSANDS OF LIVES. HEADS MUST ROLL”. It’s the same reason we’re not getting any mature public discussion of relaxation of “lockdown”, with pros and cons. Even hint at an option of relaxation in two to three weeks (even to dismiss it) “OUT IN TWO weeks” or at the other extreme “LOCKED DOWN FOR A YEAR” etc etc

24 hr news is the biggest weakness in the western system of governments. It has massively increased the something (anything) has to be done (and done now) culture, and made it harder for governments to be open and accountable.

CD13

You have to feel sympathy for the press. They've acres of space to fill, and it has to be Corona stuff. They're all tabloids now.

I think the daily press briefing is getting slightly better. Not quite so many moronic questions, but the "Can you guarantee …?" nonsense continues. You can't guarantee that the sun will rise tomorrow, you thicko. And there's still the odd "My mammy says you smell of poo? Why won't you say sorry?"

At least, they're finally getting the hang of the difference between antigen and antibody.

squareroot2

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

Mysticrose

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

I didn’t, but Oasis are a really good example.

Still, one better than Tracy Chapman, who had one great album, then the well ran dry.

She did write a song later on called ‘You’re the one’ which I like

I’m currently, at 5 to 8 in the morning, watching the Classic Albums doc on Dark Side of the Moon for about the 50th time in order to avoid Piers Morgan on GMB (whilst entertaining a 5 month old baby) Great doc about a great album

Probably the greatest album ever made.

TGOHF666

squareroot2 said:

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

Newspaper interaction levels would be informative - is the fight for plunging ad revenues forcing a fight like rats over the last chip ?

Mysticrose

Just listening to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Not an album I instinctively followed but I drool over Peter Gabriel's voice and it's a fairly astonishing piece of prog rock history.

And before anyone mentions it, Led Zep IV obvs.

Mysticrose

squareroot2 said:

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

From the person who predicted no more than 16 deaths a day.

Have you seen those communist redtops otherwise known as The Times and Daily Telegraph this morning?

squareroot2

Mysticrose said:

squareroot2 said:

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

From the person who predicted no more than 16 deaths a day.

Have you seen those communist redtops otherwise known as The Times and Daily Telegraph this morning?

Oh really... you are confusing me with someone else
I never made any such statement or prediction.

Jonathan

What is the role of a minister during a crisis?

Leadership (Especially setting realistic objectives)
Decision making (timely, good judgement, accountable)
Representing the electorates priorities inside government
Unblocking political problems (using authority to get thing moving)
Communication

Not sure we can give any of them a great score.

objectives have been unrealistic
Decision making has been hesitant and accountability delegated to scientists
civil servants seems to have a better grip on the electorates priorities
critical equipment keeps getting blocked, money has been slow to arrive and ministerial clout seems ineffective
communication has at times been very confused and counter productive

Some ministers are better than others. Some you have to ask, what is the point.

OldKingCole

squareroot2 said:

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

I didn't realise we had three Left-wing papers in England (I'm not qualified to judge N. Irish, Scot or Welsh dailies!)
Helen Whatley's interview this morning on BBHC1 was a bit of a shocker.

eek

TGOHF666 said:

squareroot2 said:

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

Newspaper interaction levels would be informative - is the fight for plunging ad revenues forcing a fight like rats over the last chip ?

They all target very different audiences. They battle is getting their audience to purchase the paper rather than no paper at all.

At the moment, even though I have a subscription to the Times it's difficult to justify the 100 yard walk to the corner shop.

RochdalePioneers

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

Yes. He absolutely decided to write a letter. He personally wrote every word and was happy to send it. He was delighted to be given the opportunity entirely unprompted to say that when he said that he could see Boris Johnson's cock, due to a misunderstanding he meant to say that he could see the Prime Minister's fine suit and what a suit it is.

All his own work.

OnlyLivingBoy

DecrepiterJohnL said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

IanB2 said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

And people are at Cheltenham for considerably longer than the typical tube journey, and shooting and cheering loudly, whereas on the tube at least everyone keeps their mouth firmly closed.

There certainly seems to be circumstantial evidence that it led to a spike in cases. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/21/experts-inquiry-cheltenham-festival-coronavirus-deaths

Circumstantial evidence but until Irish doctors say they have seen a spike amongst 15 to 20,000 Irish racegoers returning home from Cheltenham, that is all it is. And while there is cheering at Cheltenham, it is not like at a football match. Seven races a day, a roar at the start, some cheering at the end, and that is it. Say 5 to 10 minutes a day, and mainly outside.

Here for instance is the Gold Cup, the biggest race of the week. Time it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfpxTcqy-G4

And what were the racegoers doing for the remainder of the time? Standing two metres apart and not interacting with each other? I doubt it. Plus it's not only the event itself but the message it sent, and the attitude of casual indifference that underlay it, at precisely the time the government should have been shutting everything down to cut the outbreak off before it really took hold. It was as if they had learned nothing from Wuhan and Lombardia. Even for a government of moronic little Englanders, that was quite extraordinary.

MarqueeMark

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

I didn’t, but Oasis are a really good example.

Still, one better than Tracy Chapman, who had one great album, then the well ran dry.

She did write a song later on called ‘You’re the one’ which I like

I’m currently, at 5 to 8 in the morning, watching the Classic Albums doc on Dark Side of the Moon for about the 50th time in order to avoid Piers Morgan on GMB (whilst entertaining a 5 month old baby) Great doc about a great album

Some great parenting on display there!

RochdalePioneers

https://twitter.com/Darth_Brexit_/status/1252688138721525762

Foxy

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

I didn’t, but Oasis are a really good example.

Still, one better than Tracy Chapman, who had one great album, then the well ran dry.

A lot of artists manage one perfect album, and can never scale the same heights. Others do seem to manage.

Generally the second album is the best one though. Wishbone Ash never surpassed the sublime Argus.

On the other hand there are some great third albums. Parallel lines is Blondie at their best.

Pulpstar

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

Yes. He absolutely decided to write a letter. He personally wrote every word and was happy to send it. He was delighted to be given the opportunity entirely unprompted to say that when he said that he could see Boris Johnson's cock, due to a misunderstanding he meant to say that he could see the Prime Minister's fine suit and what a suit it is.

All his own work.

Must admit the Sir Humphrey letter feels a bit weird to me.

Pulpstar

noneoftheabove said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

Do not people not work at Cheltenham? Make their livelihoods from it? Maybe all the caterers, bookies, hospitality workers, trainers, jockeys, taxis, hotels were all volunteers?

And plenty of people on the tube that week were not doing essential travel, they were tourists, visiting friends, shopping as well - there would have been more of those on the London tube than Cheltenham visitors.

That's a nonsense argument, the tube ferries key workers about so has to remain open.

noneoftheabove

Jonathan said:

What is the role of a minister during a crisis?

Leadership (Especially setting realistic objectives)
Decision making (timely, good judgement, accountable)
Representing the electorates priorities inside government
Unblocking political problems (using authority to get thing moving)
Communication

Not sure we can give any of them a great score.

objectives have been unrealistic
Decision making has been hesitant and accountability delegated to scientists
civil servants seems to have a better grip on the electorates priorities
critical equipment keeps getting blocked, money has been slow to arrive and ministerial clout seems ineffective
communication has at times been very confused and counter productive

Some ministers are better than others. Some you have to ask, what is the point.

Why would you expect people to get a great score during one of the most challenging crises of our lifetime?

The key objective was to stop the NHS being overwhelmed to the point of it not being able to function - achieved.
What would the response have been if the govt overruled the scientists?
Criticial equipment gets blocked because other countries are chasing the same stuff and people are looking to make quick bucks exploiting the situation.
On the business side, money hasnt been slow imo, we have received a grant already and should get the furlough money by the end of the month. Its an extremely generous scheme given the circumstances and delivered on time.
Communication has been confused because people arent very good at dealing with uncertainty.

Foxy

Mysticrose said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

I didn’t, but Oasis are a really good example.

Still, one better than Tracy Chapman, who had one great album, then the well ran dry.

She did write a song later on called ‘You’re the one’ which I like

I’m currently, at 5 to 8 in the morning, watching the Classic Albums doc on Dark Side of the Moon for about the 50th time in order to avoid Piers Morgan on GMB (whilst entertaining a 5 month old baby) Great doc about a great album

Probably the greatest album ever made.

Up there with The Gilded Palace of Sin, by the Flying Burrito Bros

squareroot2

eek said:

TGOHF666 said:

squareroot2 said:

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

Newspaper interaction levels would be informative - is the fight for plunging ad revenues forcing a fight like rats over the last chip ?

They all target very different audiences. They battle is getting their audience to purchase the paper rather than no paper at all.

At the moment, even though I have a subscription to the Times it's difficult to justify the 100 yard walk to the corner shop.

I have just taken out a sub to the Times. Its by far and away the best paper out there.

RochdalePioneers

Mysticrose said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

I didn’t, but Oasis are a really good example.

Still, one better than Tracy Chapman, who had one great album, then the well ran dry.

She did write a song later on called ‘You’re the one’ which I like

I’m currently, at 5 to 8 in the morning, watching the Classic Albums doc on Dark Side of the Moon for about the 50th time in order to avoid Piers Morgan on GMB (whilst entertaining a 5 month old baby) Great doc about a great album

Probably the greatest album ever made.

Of you haven't seen it yet, set aside 90 minutes and watch this. Pink Floyd P.U.L.S.E. - released via YouTube last weekend as a new remastered 90 minute cut of the concert. Makes the definitive live version of Dark Side sound even more mind-blowing. And then it carries on - we get Sorrow, Keep Talking, High Hopes, Wish You Were Here and Comfortably Numb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hokGXqEsCXk

More gigs released by them every Friday!

Theuniondivvie

BannedinnParis said:

… and they won't stop until they get a 'scalp'. I mean, we are all aware that the media's approach to this has practically no basis in reality. They got their lockdown and are now looking for the next thing they can get a 'win' from.

ALSO- what felix wrote.

What, we're only having a lockdown because the media wanted one?! What a shallow, lily-livered bunch of cowards we must have governing us.

AlastairMeeks

Pulpstar said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

Yes. He absolutely decided to write a letter. He personally wrote every word and was happy to send it. He was delighted to be given the opportunity entirely unprompted to say that when he said that he could see Boris Johnson's cock, due to a misunderstanding he meant to say that he could see the Prime Minister's fine suit and what a suit it is.

All his own work.

Must admit the Sir Humphrey letter feels a bit weird to me.

The wording looks carefully drafted to ensure that it is formally true. Which means that a few well chosen questions should elicit more of the full picture.

The alternative is that a senior civil servant should have gone to a select committee, for which he no doubt prepared thoroughly, and then held forth on a subject about which he knew nothing. That seems improbable.

If you watch the video clip, he was clearly choosing his words carefully there and he wasn't looking to be indiscreet - the opposite, he looks as though he could say an awful lot more.

noneoftheabove

Pulpstar said:

noneoftheabove said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

Do not people not work at Cheltenham? Make their livelihoods from it? Maybe all the caterers, bookies, hospitality workers, trainers, jockeys, taxis, hotels were all volunteers?

And plenty of people on the tube that week were not doing essential travel, they were tourists, visiting friends, shopping as well - there would have been more of those on the London tube than Cheltenham visitors.

That's a nonsense argument, the tube ferries key workers about so has to remain open.

Not nonsense at all, currently the tube is effectively open to key workers and closed to everyone else. If it was so important to stop Cheltenham, why not have done that to the tube in Cheltenham week as well?

MarqueeMark

Casino_Royale said:

Horse racing seems to me to be one of the sports you might be able to reinstate through social distancing.

You could limit the number of horses in the race - jockeys don't really get closer than 2m to each other anyway, except at the start line which could be spaced - and also insist on having no live spectators.

Behind the scenes stables and stablehands could be managed to ensure separation as well.

Hey presto, you have horse racing again minus some of the atmosphere.

Lots of space around the course. OK, so you're furlongs from the finishing post. But your at the races again....

northern_monkey

DecrepiterJohnL said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

Is not the standard music industry term the contractual obligation album?

Radiohead’s third album was the seminal, highly lauded OK Computer...

Casino_Royale

We haven't poked the Brexit hornets nest for a while, have we?

Ok, I will. There's an increasingly detectable division in Leaver ranks on Coronavirus. It's coming out through press, twitter and even on here.

On the one hand, you have the libertarian Leavers (Dan Hannan, Alison Pearson, Toby Young and Steve Baker) who are arguing for a loosening and lifting of the lockdown as soon as possible.

On the other, you have hitherto staunch Leavers walking lockstep hand in hand with them (mostly older and more vulnerable with health issues) now starting to throw stones at them the other way - wanting the lockdown to continue as long as possible.

I haven't detected too many divisions on the Remainer side. Except some want to make a thing out of the EU ventilator procurement scheme and a few irreconcilables want to attack Boris and his Government and undermine it as much as possible.

rottenborough

The Pasteur Institute reckon rate of infection is down to 0.5 in France.

Worried that only 5.7% of population have had it and concerned on 2nd wave.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/21/europe-eases-lockdown-french-warned-second-wave-risk-six-per/

eek

northern_monkey said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That difficult third album where all the best tunes have been used up twice and the band have nothing new to say. Meanwhile, the audience starts to get restless.

The government was ridiculously overpraised at the outset and some of its early poor decisions are coming under belated scrutiny. The public is willing the government to succeed, being personally invested in its success, so it has a lot of support to draw upon. A lot, but not limitless.

Did you watch the Oasis documentary the other day? Noel Gallagher admits to exactly that!

He wrote all the songs for the first three albums before the first one was recorded, that’s why the third one was not all that.

Is not the standard music industry term the contractual obligation album?

Radiohead’s third album was the seminal, highly lauded OK Computer...

An experiment (as they had no songs) that work...

Socky

noneoftheabove said:

Clearly we have failed relative to Germany on testing, and not been able to explain why.

But if the answer is: PHE are bureaucratic, over-centralised, and stuck in their ways.

Is this really the time to be having that debate?

eek

squareroot2 said:

eek said:

TGOHF666 said:

squareroot2 said:

3 left wing papers is unurprising when critical.of the Govt

Newspaper interaction levels would be informative - is the fight for plunging ad revenues forcing a fight like rats over the last chip ?

They all target very different audiences. They battle is getting their audience to purchase the paper rather than no paper at all.

At the moment, even though I have a subscription to the Times it's difficult to justify the 100 yard walk to the corner shop.

I have just taken out a sub to the Times. Its by far and away the best paper out there.

Let's be blunt there isn't any real competition anymore - I'm at a loss as to who the Daily Telegraph wants as their audience.

RochdalePioneers

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

Yes. He absolutely decided to write a letter. He personally wrote every word and was happy to send it. He was delighted to be given the opportunity entirely unprompted to say that when he said that he could see Boris Johnson's cock, due to a misunderstanding he meant to say that he could see the Prime Minister's fine suit and what a suit it is.

All his own work.

Must admit the Sir Humphrey letter feels a bit weird to me.

The wording looks carefully drafted to ensure that it is formally true. Which means that a few well chosen questions should elicit more of the full picture.

The alternative is that a senior civil servant should have gone to a select committee, for which he no doubt prepared thoroughly, and then held forth on a subject about which he knew nothing. That seems improbable.

If you watch the video clip, he was clearly choosing his words carefully there and he wasn't looking to be indiscreet - the opposite, he looks as though he could say an awful lot more.

David Allen Green on Twitter tears the letter apart structurally and describes it as an "I've been kidnapped note". For a Senior Civil Servant to say the direct opposite of reality at a select committee beggars belief. for him to quickly issue a rebuttal so bizarrely worded is doubly so.

He went to the committee. He told the truth. The government has gone postal. A "did I say black? I meant white" letter has been thrown together - by SPADS not the author - which he has been forced to sign on pain of his career.

And its such an awful job that its blatantly obvious he's been nobbled - which enables the truth of his statements to the select committee to be amplified far more than then were. Well done Boris!

Jonathan

noneoftheabove said:

Jonathan said:

What is the role of a minister during a crisis?

Leadership (Especially setting realistic objectives)
Decision making (timely, good judgement, accountable)
Representing the electorates priorities inside government
Unblocking political problems (using authority to get thing moving)
Communication

Not sure we can give any of them a great score.

objectives have been unrealistic
Decision making has been hesitant and accountability delegated to scientists
civil servants seems to have a better grip on the electorates priorities
critical equipment keeps getting blocked, money has been slow to arrive and ministerial clout seems ineffective
communication has at times been very confused and counter productive

Some ministers are better than others. Some you have to ask, what is the point.

Why would you expect people to get a great score during one of the most challenging crises of our lifetime?

The key objective was to stop the NHS being overwhelmed to the point of it not being able to function - achieved.
What would the response have been if the govt overruled the scientists?
Criticial equipment gets blocked because other countries are chasing the same stuff and people are looking to make quick bucks exploiting the situation.
On the business side, money hasnt been slow imo, we have received a grant already and should get the furlough money by the end of the month. Its an extremely generous scheme given the circumstances and delivered on time.
Communication has been confused because people arent very good at dealing with uncertainty.

Nice try, but your defence runs out of steam as you go. What I don’t like is the way they hide behind scientists, ready to hang them out to dry if things don’t go well.

The buck stops with the ministers, not the advisers.

Malmesbury

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

Yes. He absolutely decided to write a letter. He personally wrote every word and was happy to send it. He was delighted to be given the opportunity entirely unprompted to say that when he said that he could see Boris Johnson's cock, due to a misunderstanding he meant to say that he could see the Prime Minister's fine suit and what a suit it is.

All his own work.

Must admit the Sir Humphrey letter feels a bit weird to me.

The wording looks carefully drafted to ensure that it is formally true. Which means that a few well chosen questions should elicit more of the full picture.

The alternative is that a senior civil servant should have gone to a select committee, for which he no doubt prepared thoroughly, and then held forth on a subject about which he knew nothing. That seems improbable.

If you watch the video clip, he was clearly choosing his words carefully there and he wasn't looking to be indiscreet - the opposite, he looks as though he could say an awful lot more.

We have been treated, in the past to civil servants stating at such committees, that they followed all the best practises in procurement, following a procurement screw up (Government Procurement Screwups, Part IIXXXXVVVV).

Examination of the reality by groups such as www.theregister.co.uk revealed in such cases that said projects violated every single rule of good procurement practise.

In short, there is a history of civil servants confidently talking utters bollocks at select committees.

Bit like politicians really. Do you think the two species could share DNA or something?

Pulpstar

noneoftheabove said:

Pulpstar said:

noneoftheabove said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

Do not people not work at Cheltenham? Make their livelihoods from it? Maybe all the caterers, bookies, hospitality workers, trainers, jockeys, taxis, hotels were all volunteers?

And plenty of people on the tube that week were not doing essential travel, they were tourists, visiting friends, shopping as well - there would have been more of those on the London tube than Cheltenham visitors.

That's a nonsense argument, the tube ferries key workers about so has to remain open.

Not nonsense at all, currently the tube is effectively open to key workers and closed to everyone else. If it was so important to stop Cheltenham, why not have done that to the tube in Cheltenham week as well?

I'd agree with that, I was aghast that Cheltenham was on.

Theuniondivvie

Foxy said:

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

To be fair, between 1939 and the summer of 1940, things did not go well and many errors were made. Things only got better after the opposition parties were incorporated. Even then mistakes were made, notably the diasastrous Malaysian campaign, Greek and Crete battles, Dieppe raid etc.

1939-40 wasn't even the end of the beginning of the mistakes.

DecrepiterJohnL

OnlyLivingBoy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

IanB2 said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

noneoftheabove said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I think the time for giving the government the benefit of the doubt is over. There have been so many unforced errors - the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was mystifying to me even at the time - that will undoubtedly have cost lives. I suspect that Johnson's illness bought them some breathing space, but now that he has thankfully recovered it is time to hold his administration to account for its dire performance.

If you were closing Cheltenham why would you allow the tube to run?

Presumably because the tube is essential for getting people to work, whereas Cheltenham is not essential for anything.

And people are at Cheltenham for considerably longer than the typical tube journey, and shooting and cheering loudly, whereas on the tube at least everyone keeps their mouth firmly closed.

There certainly seems to be circumstantial evidence that it led to a spike in cases. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/21/experts-inquiry-cheltenham-festival-coronavirus-deaths

Circumstantial evidence but until Irish doctors say they have seen a spike amongst 15 to 20,000 Irish racegoers returning home from Cheltenham, that is all it is. And while there is cheering at Cheltenham, it is not like at a football match. Seven races a day, a roar at the start, some cheering at the end, and that is it. Say 5 to 10 minutes a day, and mainly outside.

Here for instance is the Gold Cup, the biggest race of the week. Time it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfpxTcqy-G4

And what were the racegoers doing for the remainder of the time? Standing two metres apart and not interacting with each other? I doubt it. Plus it's not only the event itself but the message it sent, and the attitude of casual indifference that underlay it, at precisely the time the government should have been shutting everything down to cut the outbreak off before it really took hold. It was as if they had learned nothing from Wuhan and Lombardia. Even for a government of moronic little Englanders, that was quite extraordinary.

I was responding to the point about cheering by pointing out there was very little: just 5 or 10 minutes a day, perhaps. I gather hand-washing facilities and sanitizer despensers were all over the course. To be cynical, is the fuss about Cheltenham whipped up to divert attention from the Prime Minister's attendance at the rugby international?

Malmesbury

Theuniondivvie said:

Foxy said:

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.

It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:

Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons
Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact)
Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball)
Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked)
Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that)
Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler)
Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers)
Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).

What a bunch of luminaries, eh?

To be fair, between 1939 and the summer of 1940, things did not go well and many errors were made. Things only got better after the opposition parties were incorporated. Even then mistakes were made, notably the diasastrous Malaysian campaign, Greek and Crete battles, Dieppe raid etc.

1939-40 wasn't even the end of the beginning of the mistakes.

It could be said that Britain under Churchill was somewhat reckless and made many mistakes, but won the war.

The French carefully, cautiously and quite definitely lost the war in months.

Pulpstar

Casino_Royale said:

Horse racing seems to me to be one of the sports you might be able to reinstate through social distancing.

You could limit the number of horses in the race - jockeys don't really get closer than 2m to each other anyway, except at the start line which could be spaced - and also insist on having no live spectators.

Behind the scenes stables and stablehands could be managed to ensure separation as well.

Hey presto, you have horse racing again minus some of the atmosphere.

My guess is the yards will be still working at the moment. Unless they're out in a field 24-7, racehorses need to be fed, watered, skipped, shoed and yes ridden still. Even if they're in a field they still need feet tending to.

DecrepiterJohnL

Malmesbury said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

I see the civil servant who made the 'political decision' comment about the EU procurement scheme has admitted he was wrong - so to paraphrase Meeks comment yesterday was lying.

Yes. He absolutely decided to write a letter. He personally wrote every word and was happy to send it. He was delighted to be given the opportunity entirely unprompted to say that when he said that he could see Boris Johnson's cock, due to a misunderstanding he meant to say that he could see the Prime Minister's fine suit and what a suit it is.

All his own work.

Must admit the Sir Humphrey letter feels a bit weird to me.

The wording looks carefully drafted to ensure that it is formally true. Which means that a few well chosen questions should elicit more of the full picture.

The alternative is that a senior civil servant should have gone to a select committee, for which he no doubt prepared thoroughly, and then held forth on a subject about which he knew nothing. That seems improbable.

If you watch the video clip, he was clearly choosing his words carefully there and he wasn't looking to be indiscreet - the opposite, he looks as though he could say an awful lot more.

We have been treated, in the past to civil servants stating at such committees, that they followed all the best practises in procurement, following a procurement screw up (Government Procurement Screwups, Part IIXXXXVVVV).

Examination of the reality by groups such as www.theregister.co.uk revealed in such cases that said projects violated every single rule of good procurement practise.

In short, there is a history of civil servants confidently talking utters bollocks at select committees.

Bit like politicians really. Do you think the two species could share DNA or something?

Share PPE more likely, in the Oxford rather than NHS sense.

BannedinnParis

My prediction is that we'll soon enough see a number of big press names go to the wall. They're all chasing diminishing returns, they're all seeing the success of being a c*nt, and its clearer and clearer that that doesn't necessarily sell papers. One high profile collapse and others will follow.

I am not sure it will fix the underlying problems though.