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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Great polling numbers for those who got on the PB 250/1 Sunak

SystemSystem Posts: 11,019
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Great polling numbers for those who got on the PB 250/1 Sunak for next PM bet

Back in November PBer Philip Thompson had a great guest slot here in which he suggested that the 200/1 then being offered by Ladbrokes was was great value bet. It came during the GE2019 campaign shortly after Rishi Sunak had been chosen by Johnson to act as the Tory rep on one of the set piece debates.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    1st
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,114
    Second (but probably not after a recount...)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    He'll be popular until he starts cutting spending and raising taxes to pay for all of this.
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    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,442
    edited April 2020
    I think we have to remember that Sunak is only the chancellor because of the background politikling of Cummings. He accepted conditions that no senior politican could have and is consequently enjoying a bump through throwing unearnt money at everything.

    I suggest we look back to when he stood in during the election debates and looked as plastic as the plinth he stood behind. To me Sunak is there simply becaues of Boris and when the leader falls out of favour the underlings will be removed too.

    My vote would be for RAAAAAAAAB as the best in show.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,347
    At least we will be talking about this instead of people using hindsight and revoltingly trying to.pin excess deaths on the Govt.
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    He's spraying money around. There will be a correlation between that and his popularity.
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    Don't diss Priti Patel, her shoplifting is down is a meme for the ages.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,360
    Priti Patel is not helped by the box she stands on to see over the lectern. It looks silly. Why she could not be provided with a lower lectern is... oh, hold on, who would want to help a future leadership rival?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    One thing Mr Yorkshire Tea does well, he speaks human.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    I cant tell what will be funnier, Leeds not being promoted or Liverpool not winning the title. Both are very funny.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Some absolutely eye opening stuff in here e.g.

    On April 15, the Washington Post reported that, in New York and Wuhan, between 14 and 30 percent of ICU patients had lost kidney function, requiring dialysis. New York hospitals were treating so much kidney failure “they need more personnel who can perform dialysis and have issued an urgent call for volunteers from other parts of the country.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,963
    MaxPB said:

    He'll be popular until he starts cutting spending and raising taxes to pay for all of this.

    What! It's almost like it's popular (in the short-term) to go around splurging other peoples' money.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    One thing Mr Yorkshire Tea does well, he speaks human.

    Close your eyes and listen. He speaks both in accent and content like a Young Tony Blair.

    It was a good tip. Worth trading out on now though as way too short.
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    I cant tell what will be funnier, Leeds not being promoted or Liverpool not winning the title. Both are very funny.

    I am a Manchester United fan. I can assure you that popcorn is in standby...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    Foxy said:

    One thing Mr Yorkshire Tea does well, he speaks human.

    Close your eyes and listen. He speaks both in accent and content like a Young Tony Blair....
    Yes, I have to admit that my opinion of him fell somewhat when I realised that. Pavlovian, I think.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,347

    Second (but probably not after a recount...)

    If its online voting only he could win every time
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,816
    FPT:
    Pulpstar said:

    Comparing countries is fraught - different social aspects, different distribution of population, diferent habits, different demographics, the works. But there are a few countries where direct comparisons can be drawn.

    One such was East vs West Germany - a single country split in two and subject to differing economic systems. Comparing East German and West German economic outcomes was valid.

    Comparing Sweden with Belgium (or San Marino, or South Korea, or Austria, or Italy, or Ireland) is equally dodgy. But it is easily comparable with its immediate neighbours. Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have long been entangled together with shared histories - similar societies, similar distribution of people, similar languages, similar social habits. Sweden and Norway last separated in 1905.

    Denmark has a border with the rest of the European masses, and is very close and entangled with Germany and the Netherlands. It also has a significantly denser population than the other two.

    Swedish population is 1.906 times the population of Norway. Scaling up cumulative deaths in Norway (locked down) and Sweden (restrictions but not fully locked down), with Norwegian deaths scaled up by 1.906 times gives a useful comparison of the effects of a lockdown, with as many other confounding effects avoided.

    Sweden should, ceteris paribus, be somewhere between Norway and Denmark's curve.
    Indeed. Adding Denmark's curve:
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,347

    Second (but probably not after a recount...)

    If its online voting only he could win every time
    ..i have had the ignomy of being first and having RCS1000 delete my post so he could be first.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,808

    One thing Mr Yorkshire Tea does well, he speaks human.

    We've discussed and concluded that it is not an Indian thing as far as our experience tells, but Mrs Rata can't see Rishi Sunak without getting horribly distracted by why someone with such luxuriant hair feels the need to part it somewhere around about where Bobby Charlton and Gregor Fisher do. Any political ability he has is thus lost on her.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208

    Some absolutely eye opening stuff in here e.g.

    On April 15, the Washington Post reported that, in New York and Wuhan, between 14 and 30 percent of ICU patients had lost kidney function, requiring dialysis. New York hospitals were treating so much kidney failure “they need more personnel who can perform dialysis and have issued an urgent call for volunteers from other parts of the country.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html

    Yes, that article is pretty grim reading. The virus attacks all sorts of systems. Young people getting massive strokes which when the surgeon tries to deal with the clot in the brain, new ones form in "real time" around it.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,577
    An interesting account of what has from the outside seemed a rather opaque strategy.
    @edmundintokyo could probably say better than I how accurate it is.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/04/28/commentary/japan-commentary/covid-19-strategy-japan-model/
    ...So what is the Japan model? First, it is a cluster-based approach, derived from a hypothesis obtained from an epidemiological study based on Chinese data and conducted on the Diamond Princess cruise ship that entered the port of Yokohama on Feb. 3.

    This hypothesis accounts for the many passengers who were not infected with the new coronavirus despite having had close contact with infected persons. It posits that the explosive increase in infected persons is a result of the high transmissibility of certain infected individuals, which forms a cluster. Infected individuals with even higher transmissibility appear from these clusters to form more clusters and infect many others.

    Based on this hypothesis, under the cluster-based approach, each cluster is tracked to the original infection source and persons with high transmissibility are isolated to prevent the spread of infection. For this reason, pinpoint testing is carried out and broad testing of the population is not required, in contrast to the approaches taken in other counties.

    This cluster-based approach is conditioned on an environment in which there are only a few infected persons and clusters are detectable at an early stage. In February, when the spread of infection was observed in Hokkaido, a cluster-based approach was adopted. As a result, Hokkaido was successfully able to contain its outbreak.

    For the cluster-based approach to be effective, protective measures at airports and ports are important. Hokkaido has the advantage of being an island, making it comparatively easy to control the inflow of infected people.

    Behavioral changes are also required. On Feb. 28, acting without legal basis, Hokkaido Gov. Naomichi Suzuki declared a state of emergency and called on residents to refrain from going outside. Residents took the call seriously, and are responsible for the success of the cluster-based approach.

    Following its success in Hokkaido, the cluster-based approach was adopted nationally. On Feb. 25, a Cluster Response Team was established in the Health, Labor and Welfare Ministry.

    Another key to the Japan model is the social distancing method known as “the three Cs,” referring to closed spaces with poor ventilation, crowded places with many people nearby and close-contact settings such as close-range conversations...
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    At least we will be talking about this instead of people using hindsight and revoltingly trying to.pin excess deaths on the Govt.

    That is so true.

    The use of hindsight by so many to attack HMG and usually with political motives is at gold medal levels
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Don't diss Priti Patel, her shoplifting is down is a meme for the ages.

    What's happening to her is what happens when a minister falls out with her top civil servants
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    Some absolutely eye opening stuff in here e.g.

    On April 15, the Washington Post reported that, in New York and Wuhan, between 14 and 30 percent of ICU patients had lost kidney function, requiring dialysis. New York hospitals were treating so much kidney failure “they need more personnel who can perform dialysis and have issued an urgent call for volunteers from other parts of the country.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html

    Yes, that is a big problem here in Leicester too.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Hancock up again at 5.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    Don't diss Priti Patel, her shoplifting is down is a meme for the ages.

    I can't stand her but it is good to see a female ethnic minority politician rising to the position of Home Secretary.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    edited April 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    Hancock up again at 5.

    I don’t think he’s very good but you can’t fault his work ethic. He’s been putting in one hell of a shift.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,922

    I cant tell what will be funnier, Leeds not being promoted or Liverpool not winning the title. Both are very funny.

    I am a Manchester United fan. I can assure you that popcorn is in standby...
    It would be good PR, and quite a noble sporting gesture, if Man City found a way of losing a game, maybe letting a solitary opposition player kick a ball into an empty net (in an equally empty stadium), that meant Liverpool could be crowned champions if it were decided that no further games were to be played and the whole thing void.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    FPT:

    “a clear picture is elusive, as the virus acts like no pathogen humanity has ever seen.”

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html

    Well worth a read.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    isam said:

    I cant tell what will be funnier, Leeds not being promoted or Liverpool not winning the title. Both are very funny.

    I am a Manchester United fan. I can assure you that popcorn is in standby...
    It would be good PR, and quite a noble sporting gesture, if Man City found a way of losing a game, maybe letting a solitary opposition player kick a ball into an empty net (in an equally empty stadium), that meant Liverpool could be crowned champions if it were decided that no further games were to be played and the whole thing void.
    I disagree entirely. That sounds shit.
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    Don't diss Priti Patel, her shoplifting is down is a meme for the ages.

    What's happening to her is what happens when a minister falls out with her top civil servants
    Nah she's this incompetent even before she fell out with the civil servants.

    Remember when she proved she was a national security risk and had to resign in disgrace?
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050

    I think we have to remember that Sunak is only the chancellor because of the background politikling of Cummings. He accepted conditions that no senior politican could have and is consequently enjoying a bump through throwing unearnt money at everything.

    I suggest we look back to when he stood in during the election debates and looked as plastic as the plinth he stood behind. To me Sunak is there simply becaues of Boris and when the leader falls out of favour the underlings will be removed too.

    My vote would be for RAAAAAAAAB as the best in show.

    It grieves me to say that Raab has been the Tories best all round performer these last weeks....Sunak's star burned very brightly when he gave out the bailout address, but he increasingly appears out of his depth (his gravitas may well grow of course.....).....
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    Hancock up again at 5.

    I don’t think he’s very good but you can’t fault his work ethic. He’s been putting in one hell of a shift.
    He might be a regular until testing reaches 100k - owning it.

    Suspect we might see Boris on Th/Fr
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. kinabalu, it's tokenism for someone unfit to be in the Cabinet.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    If you're a bit gloomy because of global death and the new Great Depression, cheer yourself up by remembering you're not the guy who programmed the University of Washington's covid model

    https://covid19.healthdata.org

    Right now it is predicting a total first wave death toll of 27,425 for Italy, by August 4th

    As of today Italy is reporting 27,359 deaths.

    So the University of Washington expects Italy to suffer 66 more deaths in total, over the next three months

    I read up on how they came up with this model...part of the core fundamentals of it is a novel empirical formula they created themselves based solely off the original Chinese data.

    So hard-coded in the black box is a formula that is fundamentally flawed, so even if they adjust various inputs like the ICU capacity (that is totally wrong for the UK), when they crank the handle, part of the machinery inside will spit out absolute garbage.
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    Mr. kinabalu, it's tokenism for someone unfit to be in the Cabinet.

    Indeed, I've had four jobs since I finished university, every one on merit because I was the best person for the job.

    I'd be devastated if I had been chosen on the basis of the colour of my skin.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,922

    isam said:

    I cant tell what will be funnier, Leeds not being promoted or Liverpool not winning the title. Both are very funny.

    I am a Manchester United fan. I can assure you that popcorn is in standby...
    It would be good PR, and quite a noble sporting gesture, if Man City found a way of losing a game, maybe letting a solitary opposition player kick a ball into an empty net (in an equally empty stadium), that meant Liverpool could be crowned champions if it were decided that no further games were to be played and the whole thing void.
    I disagree entirely. That sounds shit.
    I am a sports fan and part of playing sport is acknowledging when you have been beaten. In fact, many sports include the option of "conceding" this within their rules. Liverpool obviously deserve to be crowned champions, their haters can get what crumbs of comfort they need out of the fact their moment of joy has been severely diminished by the absence of winning it on the pitch.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    If you're a bit gloomy because of global death and the new Great Depression, cheer yourself up by remembering you're not the guy who programmed the University of Washington's covid model

    https://covid19.healthdata.org

    Right now it is predicting a total first wave death toll of 27,425 for Italy, by August 4th

    As of today Italy is reporting 27,359 deaths.

    So the University of Washington expects Italy to suffer 66 more deaths in total, over the next three months

    That's positively a bullseye in comparison the Niall Ferguson's totally off the scale forecasts for some recent outbreaks.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Again a case of what you wish for....there will be a massive housing price correction of say circa 30-40% over the next couple of years....

    But with mass unemployment the young are again to be locked out....without jobs, and without family being able to raise equity on properties...they are going to be further away than before....
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,605

    Priti Patel is not helped by the box she stands on to see over the lectern. It looks silly. Why she could not be provided with a lower lectern is... oh, hold on, who would want to help a future leadership rival?

    Van Tam uses the same box.

    Doesn't do him any harm.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,376

    eadric said:

    If you're a bit gloomy because of global death and the new Great Depression, cheer yourself up by remembering you're not the guy who programmed the University of Washington's covid model

    https://covid19.healthdata.org

    Right now it is predicting a total first wave death toll of 27,425 for Italy, by August 4th

    As of today Italy is reporting 27,359 deaths.

    So the University of Washington expects Italy to suffer 66 more deaths in total, over the next three months

    I read up on how they came up with this model...part of the core fundamentals of it is a novel empirical formula they created themselves based solely off the Chinese data.

    So hard-coded in the black box is a formula that is fundamentally flawed, so even if they adjust various inputs like the ICU capacity (that is totally wrong for the UK), when they crank the handle, part of the machinery inside will spit out absolute garbage.
    The stubbornness with which they are sticking too their model is interesting.

    Brings to mind this -

    "—at that instant, a red arm and a hammer hovered backwardly uplifted in the open air, in the act of nailing the flag faster and yet faster to the subsiding spar. "
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,943
    Property prices will go down. The question is - by how much?

    I suppose that is linked to how quickly the economy recovers. My guess is not very quickly, and not very much. So a prolonged, drawn out fall in prices akin to the mid 90s. And quite a lot of people trapped by negative equity. Then there's the question of rising interest rates on top of that.

    One other factor that didn't exist in previous crashes is AirBnB properties.

    If global travel is kaput for the next year or more, we could see a lot of distressed sales. The rental market will also be flooded.

    All the signs are pointing towards an almighty downturn...
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    How far did Hancock miss his target by today?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,925

    TGOHF666 said:

    Hancock up again at 5.

    I don’t think he’s very good but you can’t fault his work ethic. He’s been putting in one hell of a shift.
    Hancock has had far too much to do in this crisis, he ought to have delegated out the social care side of his remit entirely to AN Other minister.
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    DensparkDenspark Posts: 68
    eadric said:

    If you're a bit gloomy because of global death and the new Great Depression, cheer yourself up by remembering you're not the guy who programmed the University of Washington's covid model

    https://covid19.healthdata.org

    Right now it is predicting a total first wave death toll of 27,425 for Italy, by August 4th

    As of today Italy is reporting 27,359 deaths.

    So the University of Washington expects Italy to suffer 66 more deaths in total, over the next three months

    i think they've had about 6 different peak days for the UK.

    On the 27th based on the announced deaths up to the 26th they predicted the 27th would have between 127 and 5000 deaths. with their most likely toll being 1250.
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Hancock up again at 5.

    I don’t think he’s very good but you can’t fault his work ethic. He’s been putting in one hell of a shift.
    Hancock has had far too much to do in this crisis, he ought to have delegated out the social care side of his remit entirely to AN Other minister.
    In terms of what he has on his plate I think he has done a decent job, I wonder who could have done any better in this once in a 100 year event.
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    How far did Hancock miss his target by today?

    Capacity at 72,000 and looks like 100,000 capacity will not be far away by the end of the month but of course actual tests are still short

    I do not think this will result in Hancock resigning
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010

    How far did Hancock miss his target by today?

    He didn't. It's not the end of the month until Thursday. He has until Friday
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,508
    edited April 2020
    @Cyclefree Gardening Question of the Day (14)

    Pruning Wisteria and Clematis. Could I have some advice on how to handle pruning and maintenance of a mature wisteria and a clematis, that tend to get top heavy. Thanks.

    https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1255093769969569792
    https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1255095260985864195
    https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1255136513345503233
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    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Hancock up again at 5.

    I don’t think he’s very good but you can’t fault his work ethic. He’s been putting in one hell of a shift.
    Hancock has had far too much to do in this crisis, he ought to have delegated out the social care side of his remit entirely to AN Other minister.
    Plus with him and Nadine Dorries coming down with the lurgy the DHSC definitely needed support and a change of responsibilities for the ministers.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Asking for it really isn't he? Again suggests they're not far away.


    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1255167329668825089
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    ABZABZ Posts: 441
    Looks like the % of positive tests has fallen again today, even given more tests. Also, did Mr Hancock state that 1/6 of fatalities were in care homes? That's a rather smaller number than in other countries I think.
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    eadric said:

    Italy reported 382 deaths today, up from 333 yesterday, and 2,091 new cases, over 1,739 yesterday

    The curve is indeed flattening, but the downwards slope is painfully gentle

    This just shows the Ed Conway tweet graph earlier to be nonsense
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,605

    How far did Hancock miss his target by today?

    Capacity at 72,000 and looks like 100,000 capacity will not be far away by the end of the month but of course actual tests are still short

    I do not think this will result in Hancock resigning
    They'll be dragging people out of their sick beds to take them to a testing centre by the end of the week.
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    novanova Posts: 525
    I wonder what will happen when Hancock is able to start giving out good news (if he lasts that long), and Sunak has to start giving out bad news.
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    Andrew said:

    Asking for it really isn't he? Again suggests they're not far away.


    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1255167329668825089

    Especially as the original promise was for actual tests not capacity.

    Also has the 250,000 tests per diem promise by the PM been dropped?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    Andrew said:

    Asking for it really isn't he? Again suggests they're not far away.


    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1255167329668825089

    Especially as the original promise was for actual tests not capacity.

    Also has the 250,000 tests per diem promise by the PM been dropped?
    That was antigen + antibody, wasn't it?

    Hancock might be a few days late, but it looks like he'll get there.
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    ABZABZ Posts: 441
    The small print on the last chart is really important: "Some countries, such as France and the US, count deaths resulting directly from the virus only, whilst others, such as the UK and Italy, use a wider definition of deaths of those with the virus but who potentially died of other causes. In addition, some countries, such as France, include deaths from the virus in care homes whilst others, such as Italy, report hospital deaths only."
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,415
    I think Patel should get another chance at doing the press conference.

    She fluffed something - clearly she was incredibly nervous (with some justification it seems).
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Not sure these public questions are any improvement TBF.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,922
    edited April 2020
    Andrew said:

    Asking for it really isn't he? Again suggests they're not far away.


    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1255167329668825089

    The main problem with arbitrary targets like this is that people who have no idea whether they are realistic, right, or wrong spend all day trolling about them possibly not being met.

    Maybe we should have been aiming for 200,000 tests by the end of April, but the govt will be praised if they get 101,000, or maybe we only needed 50k and they will be mullered for only getting 99k
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. ABZ, that small print sounds critically important.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,815

    Some absolutely eye opening stuff in here e.g.

    On April 15, the Washington Post reported that, in New York and Wuhan, between 14 and 30 percent of ICU patients had lost kidney function, requiring dialysis. New York hospitals were treating so much kidney failure “they need more personnel who can perform dialysis and have issued an urgent call for volunteers from other parts of the country.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html

    Scary read.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    On the face of it that last chart with deaths from UK (all settings) does not look good at all.

    Though appreciate comparison with other countries not like for like.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    It wouldn't be surprising if they were doing that tomorrow.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,605
    ABZ said:

    The small print on the last chart is really important: "Some countries, such as France and the US, count deaths resulting directly from the virus only, whilst others, such as the UK and Italy, use a wider definition of deaths of those with the virus but who potentially died of other causes. In addition, some countries, such as France, include deaths from the virus in care homes whilst others, such as Italy, report hospital deaths only."

    Total deaths versus the seasonal average is the only way to get like for like comparisons.

    On that basis we are likely to be already well over 30k, and heading towards Professor Costello's 40k estimate for the first wave.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    FTPT
    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    .

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    kamski said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Unsurprising figure but I'm surprised as many as 7% went for Gove too - as someone who likes Gove. Shows the unreliability of polling respondents to answer the question actually asked.

    Gove and Patel simply haven't done that much that's obvious compared to the others during Boris's absence. Their departments are not as key frontline as the others.
    Nation likes person who gives them free stuff shock.
    Nation likes person who took the risk to react quickly in what was a constructive manner. Given the usual speed of the Treasury when it comes to handing back money, it was a bloody miracle.

    Compare and contrast with everyone else in government.
    Note he's never once said "we're following the advice of our economists"...
    Because that would be an absurd and meaningless phrase that most especially anyone who knows anything about economics would laugh at.

    Why would anyone say anything so silly? There are economists for and against almost any action.
    Of course, the same goes for science. As Prof Brian Cox said to Andrew Marr on Sunday:

    "There’s no such thing as ‘the science’, which is a key lesson. If you hear a politician say ‘we’re following the science’, then what that means is they don’t really understand what science is. There isn’t such a thing as ‘the science’. Science is a mindset."
    I wonder if that applies to campaigners on Global Warming, where 'follow the science' is also a mantra.

    Just a musing on that...


    Not accepting that increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere will lead to the warmng of average global temperatures is not just outsider the "cloud of science" it is a hundred miles away.
    Arguing that tiny trace volumes of CO2 are the only controlling factor and what the sun is up to is a disctraction seems thousands of miles away.

    Increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere 285 ppm to 410 ppm since 1850.
    That's a 44% increase. Saying the words "tiny trace" just makes you sound like an idiot.

    "How can a tiny trace amount of botulinum toxin kill someone?"
    Globally over decades the world is certainly outputting a lot of CO2.

    The global atmospheric difference in CO2 between the UK going to net zero at a timescale like the government are proposing and the UK going at a timescale XR propose is a tiny trace difference.
    Brexiteer= Climate change denier. What a surprise. Had enough of experts? Support Brexit and any other idiots charter that is in vogue with the pseudoscience Trumpian populist right wing.
    A venn diagram of Trump fans/ Brexiteers/ climate change deniers/ end-lockdown-now advocates would show a great deal of overlap.
    I've got no overlap.

    Despise Trump and hopes he loses, want climate change tackling sensibly, think the lockdown needs to be ended when the time is right but not yet and Brexiteer. So one of your 4.
    I have noted a persistent theme - that all Brexiters must be Trump supporters. Despite polling that indicates virtually no-one in the UK has any time for him.
    The theme is that any British Trumptons were very very likely to be Brexiteers. Lots of people pretending they never had any time for him now he has become such an embarrassment but that was not what they were saying at the time he was elected. The UK Trump-rampers that come to mind are all UKIP types - who can forget all those photos of good old Nigel fawning over him. Remind me of any prominent remainers that were Trump fans - I'm sure there must be an odd one but I can't think of any..
    There are massive parallels between the reasons Brexit and Trump won,
    Really? Trump got mostly the same voters as Bush, McCain and Romney. He lost the popular vote and won only because Clinton was a uniquely unpopular candidate with a terrible campaign staff who set out to prove that the Obama campaign won 'wrong'.

    Brexit had a quarter of a century campaign by the highest selling newspapers in the country covering every demographic.

    I think the links are pretty tenuous.
    I would have thought you would
    What's the evidence that Trump voters are a unique coalition of left behind, economically anxious people as opposed to people who have voted Republican at every election for the last 20 years?
    It doesn't really matter. When a politician that someone has strong feelings against is succesful, the reason for that success is always a deficiency on the side of their defeated opponent/campaign.

    Clinton, Corbyn, Remain...

    I wasn't asking a rhetorical question. My betting strategy for November is predicated on Trump not having a unique coalition and it just being the standard Republican voter base and that Trump's win was predicated on Romney voter voting for him whilst Obama voter stayed home or went third party instead of Clinton.

    Voter screens in American polls will filter out 2016 non voters which means that Clinton haters willing to vote for Biden will not show up in current polling.

    But, if Trump's voter share is not just the regualr GOP voters then my betting strategy is fucked.

    I think the reasons for Brexit success and Trump success are completely different and trying to equate them as some kind of anti Liberal elitist movement is mistaken.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287

    I think Patel should get another chance at doing the press conference.

    She fluffed something - clearly she was incredibly nervous (with some justification it seems).

    She did do a 2nd press conference - and to be fair did read the numbers out correctly.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,415
    MikeL said:

    I think Patel should get another chance at doing the press conference.

    She fluffed something - clearly she was incredibly nervous (with some justification it seems).

    She did do a 2nd press conference - and to be fair did read the numbers out correctly.
    Oh, thanks! Guess it's clear from that that I rely on PB to tell me about the press conferences now!

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    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,605
    MikeL said:

    I think Patel should get another chance at doing the press conference.

    She fluffed something - clearly she was incredibly nervous (with some justification it seems).

    She did do a 2nd press conference - and to be fair did read the numbers out correctly.
    Although her attempt at empathy was even worse than mine.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    43k tests yesterday , 1200 in Scotland.

    Dreadful contribution.
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    ABZABZ Posts: 441

    ABZ said:

    The small print on the last chart is really important: "Some countries, such as France and the US, count deaths resulting directly from the virus only, whilst others, such as the UK and Italy, use a wider definition of deaths of those with the virus but who potentially died of other causes. In addition, some countries, such as France, include deaths from the virus in care homes whilst others, such as Italy, report hospital deaths only."

    Total deaths versus the seasonal average is the only way to get like for like comparisons.

    On that basis we are likely to be already well over 30k, and heading towards Professor Costello's 40k estimate for the first wave.
    Agreed of course. But just thought it worth pointing out as people like comparing these metrics and if they are not comparable that's really important.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,605
    edited April 2020

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.

    Edit: Didn't Dura_Ace report a while back that they are dumping 747s at Burnmouth?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,271
    eadric said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Property prices will go down. The question is - by how much?

    I suppose that is linked to how quickly the economy recovers. My guess is not very quickly, and not very much. So a prolonged, drawn out fall in prices akin to the mid 90s. And quite a lot of people trapped by negative equity. Then there's the question of rising interest rates on top of that.

    One other factor that didn't exist in previous crashes is AirBnB properties.

    If global travel is kaput for the next year or more, we could see a lot of distressed sales. The rental market will also be flooded.

    All the signs are pointing towards an almighty downturn...
    I wonder if this heralds the end of the era of great and lordly megacities, certainly in the West, for a while

    In the last two decades New York, Shanghai, Singapore and London, and to a lesser extent Paris, Milan, Berlin, etc have all benefited - as cities - from conglomeration, and the clustering of elite wealth.

    Living in a superskinny sky scraper in Manhattan, or a Docklands loft in London, now looks much less appealing. Coronavirus might return, year after year, entailing lockdown after lockdown

    Even before corona, New York City was beginning to slowly depopulate (unnoticed by many) so the signs of decline started before the Plague. Now it must accelerate.

    Not great for those of us sitting on London prime property, but we will survive. In the long run it will be good for kids, who will eventually return to the cities, and thus they will rise again.

    The cycle spins.
    "we'll always have Paris Penarth!"
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.
    And a slow return to even the new normal.
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    Awful question from 'Nick'
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    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.
    No - not furloughed
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,925
    edited April 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    43k tests yesterday , 1200 in Scotland.

    Dreadful contribution.

    You're not wrong Harry. 1200 is horrendously low. Scotland should be able to bang out 5000 if rUK is at 43k.
    I think Hancock setting unrealistic target was actually OK. What's important is how many people we both can test and are testing. Often the only way to drive a change is to set a target that perhaps can't be achieved.
    1200 tests for Scotland represents failure for the SNP.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,271

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Bloody hell...
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010

    MikeL said:

    I think Patel should get another chance at doing the press conference.

    She fluffed something - clearly she was incredibly nervous (with some justification it seems).

    She did do a 2nd press conference - and to be fair did read the numbers out correctly.
    Oh, thanks! Guess it's clear from that that I rely on PB to tell me about the press conferences now!

    Priti drew the short straw and appears to only be allowed to do them at the weekend
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.
    No - not furloughed
    It is BA staff or IAG staff?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,925

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.
    I think that's right - a sensible and necessary though horrendous for all staff concerned move by British Airways.
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    RobD said:

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.
    No - not furloughed
    It is BA staff or IAG staff?
    The strap line on Sky is BA but I expect it is IAG
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,415

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.

    Edit: Didn't Dura_Ace report a while back that they are dumping 747s at Burnmouth?
    This is what I think too - surely furlough them at 80% of salary?

    I suppose they think it's better they do it now due to timings somehow?
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    43k tests yesterday , 1200 in Scotland.

    Dreadful contribution.

    You're not wrong Harry. 1200 is horrendously low. Scotland should be able to bang out 5000 if rUK is at 43k.
    I think Hancock setting unrealistic target was actually OK. What's important is how many people we both can test and are testing. Often the only way to drive a change is to set a target that perhaps can't be achieved.
    1200 tests for Scotland represents failure for the SNP.
    Yeah but scarfs in shops...
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited April 2020

    Mr. kinabalu, it's tokenism for someone unfit to be in the Cabinet.

    Ethnic diversity at the top of government is great to see and I don't think in her case it is tokenism. I think she was promoted due to her hero worship of "Boris" and as a dog whistle to the reactionary right of the party.

    I do not like her one bit but I'm looking on the bright side and seeking the positives from the situation. If we have to have Priti Patel as Home Secretary then I'm delighted that she is BAME. I would rather not have her at all, obviously, but the thought of her both being Home Secretary and not being BAME hardly bears thinking about.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.

    Edit: Didn't Dura_Ace report a while back that they are dumping 747s at Burnmouth?
    This is what I think too - surely furlough them at 80% of salary?

    I suppose they think it's better they do it now due to timings somehow?
    That scheme is likely to end before air travel is anywhere near previous levels.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    BA redundancies imply the 3rd runway at Heathrow may no longer be needed?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,605
    Pity they can't use A320s for Tesco home deliveries...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    MikeL said:

    BA redundancies imply the 3rd runway at Heathrow may no longer be needed?

    The second one seems optional at the moment.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,922
    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    .

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    kamski said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Unsurprising figure but I'm surprised as many as 7% went for Gove too - as someone who likes Gove. Shows the unreliability of polling respondents to answer the question actually asked.

    Gove and Patel simply haven't done that much that's obvious compared to the others during Boris's absence. Their departments are not as key frontline as the others.
    Nation likes person who gives them free stuff shock.
    Nation likes person who took the risk to react quickly in what was a constructive manner. Given the usual speed of the Treasury when it comes to handing back money, it was a bloody miracle.

    Compare and contrast with everyone else in government.
    Note he's never once said "we're following the advice of our economists"...
    Because that would be an absurd and meaningless phrase that most especially anyone who knows anything about economics would laugh at.

    Why would anyone say anything so silly? There are economists for and against almost any action.
    Of course, the same goes for science. As Prof Brian Cox said to Andrew Marr on Sunday:

    "There’s no such thing as ‘the science’, which is a key lesson. If you hear a politician say ‘we’re following the science’, then what that means is they don’t really understand what science is. There isn’t such a thing as ‘the science’. Science is a mindset."
    I wonder if that applies to campaigners on Global Warming, where 'follow the science' is also a mantra.

    Just a musing on that...


    Not accepting that increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere will lead to the warmng of average global temperatures is not just outsider the "cloud of science" it is a hundred miles away.
    Arguing that tiny trace volumes of CO2 are the only controlling factor and what the sun is up to is a disctraction seems thousands of miles away.

    Increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere 285 ppm to 410 ppm since 1850.
    That's a 44% increase. Saying the words "tiny trace" just makes you sound like an idiot.

    "How can a tiny trace amount of botulinum toxin kill someone?"
    Globally over decades the world is certainly outputting a lot of CO2.

    The global atmospheric difference in CO2 between the UK going to net zero at a timescale like the government are proposing and the UK going at a timescale XR propose is a tiny trace difference.
    Brexiteer= Climate change denier. What a surprise. Had enough of experts? Support Brexit and any other idiots charter that is in vogue with the pseudoscience Trumpian populist right wing.
    A venn diagram of Trump fans/ Brexiteers/ climate change deniers/ end-lockdown-now advocates would show a great deal of overlap.
    I've got no overlap.

    Despise Trump and hopes he loses, want climate change tackling sensibly, think the lockdown needs to be ended when the time is right but not yet and Brexiteer. So one of your 4.
    I have noted a persistent theme - that all Brexiters must be Trump supporters. Despite polling that indicates virtually no-one in the UK has any time for him.
    The theme is that any British Trumptons were very very likely to be Brexiteers. Lots of people pretending they never had any time for him now he has become such an embarrassment but that was not what they were saying at the time he was elected. The UK Trump-rampers that come to mind are all UKIP types - who can forget all those photos of good old Nigel fawning over him. Remind me of any prominent remainers that were Trump fans - I'm sure there must be an odd one but I can't think of any..
    There are massive parallels between the reasons Brexit and Trump won,
    Really? Trump got mostly the same voters as Bush, McCain and Romney. He lost the popular vote and won only because Clinton was a uniquely unpopular candidate with a terrible campaign staff who set out to prove that the Obama campaign won 'wrong'.

    Brexit had a quarter of a century campaign by the highest selling newspapers in the country covering every demographic.

    I think the links are pretty tenuous.
    I would have thought you would
    What's the evidence that Trump voters are a unique coalition of left behind, economically anxious people as opposed to people who have voted Republican at every election for the last 20 years?
    It doesn't really matter. When a politician that someone has strong feelings against is succesful, the reason for that success is always a deficiency on the side of their defeated opponent/campaign.

    Clinton, Corbyn, Remain...

    I wasn't asking a rhetorical question. My betting strategy for November is predicated on Trump not having a unique coalition and it just being the standard Republican voter base and that Trump's win was predicated on Romney voter voting for him whilst Obama voter stayed home or went third party instead of Clinton.

    Voter screens in American polls will filter out 2016 non voters which means that Clinton haters willing to vote for Biden will not show up in current polling.

    But, if Trump's voter share is not just the regualr GOP voters then my betting strategy is fucked.

    I think the reasons for Brexit success and Trump success are completely different and trying to equate them as some kind of anti Liberal elitist movement is mistaken.
    I’ve barely thought about it, just seems that way to me. Maybe you’re right
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    RobD said:

    British Airways make 12,000 staff redundant

    Not even furloughed? They clearly see a long term change in our behaviour.
    No - not furloughed
    It is BA staff or IAG staff?
    Do ROI have a furlough scheme for Aer Lingus staff ? If not then no surprise.
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    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited April 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    Not sure these public questions are any improvement TBF.

    The first one was pretty good. Given that social distancing must remain, the truth is that grandparents would be put in the firing line if parents have to go back to work. Schools will not be able to take all students at one time so for at least half of the week who minds the kids? Yep, the grandparents, who are then mixing with those who have been into contact with many others who may have become infected without showing symptoms.

    This is why the Pavlovian 'schools open' response is so misplaced. What schools can do is assist in what else is happening, as they are now. What they cannot do is lead to an improved economy or keep the country safe. Either parents must stay home half of the time and not work or grandparents/others outside their social bubble must mind the kids, thus increasing transmission. Schools may be able to facilitate some other measure but otherwise opening them is an empty gesture. The question really should be something like - 'small shops can be reopened because of the possibility of their keeping social distancing and to help them survive. Will they be added to the key workers list so that schools have them in situ rather than have them learning online?' That moves things on.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,651
    I think BA are trying to force the govt hand in denying help to Virgin, forcing it out of business. While the cuts are IAG, they're focussed on BA:

    https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/1255174138546839553?s=20
This discussion has been closed.