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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Not good pandemic front pages for the government this morning

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited May 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Not good pandemic front pages for the government this morning

So far during the coronavirus crisis the government has had pretty good front pages. We are facing a massive challenges as a nation and generally papers from across the political spectrum have until now been broadly supportive. That, I wonder, might be about to change.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited May 2020
    Oooh by some fluke I seem to be first. I only just sauntered onto the site.

    The bad professor has managed to deflect away some of the opprobrium. Nothing like a salacious sex scandal laced with hyopcrisy to get people's teeth gnashing.

    But, yes, the UK has handled this pandemic very poorly indeed. Especially so in the early stages. It doesn't matter how many tories on here jump up and down and claim otherwise. It's incontrovertible.

    Has Boris had a good war so far? Well, he's the only world leader to have contracted the virus which is in part because of his careless attitude and arrogance. And, yet, in so doing he also won a lot of good will from people who are not his natural supporters, myself included.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,444
    edited May 2020
    I think the biggest bear trap for the government is coming up.

    If the easing of the lockdown turns out to be a mistake then life becomes even more difficult for the government.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited May 2020
    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010

    Oooh by some fluke I seem to be first. I only just sauntered onto the site.

    The bad professor has managed to deflect away some of the opprobrium. Nothing like a salacious sex scandal laced with hyopcrisy to get people's teeth gnashing.

    But, yes, the UK has handled this pandemic very poorly indeed. Especially so in the early stages. It doesn't matter how many tories on here jump up and down and claim otherwise. It's incontrovertible.

    Has Boris had a good war so far? Well, he's the only world leader to have contracted the virus which is in part because of his careless attitude and arrogance. And, yet, in so doing he also won a lot of good will from people who are not his natural supporters, myself included.

    He should have followed the advice I had in an email from Patient Access the other day, and had a wank.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Oooh by some fluke I seem to be first. I only just sauntered onto the site.

    The bad professor has managed to deflect away some of the opprobrium. Nothing like a salacious sex scandal laced with hyopcrisy to get people's teeth gnashing.

    But, yes, the UK has handled this pandemic very poorly indeed. Especially so in the early stages. It doesn't matter how many tories on here jump up and down and claim otherwise. It's incontrovertible.

    Has Boris had a good war so far? Well, he's the only world leader to have contracted the virus which is in part because of his careless attitude and arrogance. And, yet, in so doing he also won a lot of good will from people who are not his natural supporters, myself included.

    He should have followed the advice I had in an email from Patient Access the other day, and had a wank.
    :D:D:D
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901


    Live from the number 10 press briefing.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    edited May 2020
    A two night fling, with a left wing activist, who decided it was a good idea to start it?. Imagine the outrage if it was a honey trap.

    Given The Telegraph's approach to removing the lockdown, I wondered how long ago they found out about the Professor's lover's visits in March and April.

    The element of do as I say not as I do, has damned him.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    I think the biggest bear trap for the government is coming up.

    If it the easing of the lockdown turns out to be a mistake then the life becomes even more difficult for the government.

    Maybe - but the Germans have gone first and so far so good.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/05/no-sign-second-wave-germany-first-data-lifting-lockdown-emerges/

    "There was no sign of a second wave of coronavirus infections in Germany as the first reliable data on the effects of lifting the lockdown emerged on Tuesday.

    Two weeks after shops were allowed to reopen, the rate of new infections continues to fall, the government-funded Robert Koch Institute (RKI) announced.

    The reproduction number, or R — the number of people each person with the virus infects — is close to its lowest recorded level, at 0.71.

    “The rate of transmitted infections continues to fall. This is very good news,” Prof Lothar Wieler, the head of the RKI said."

    Biggest problem the government has is filling the news gap until Boris on Sunday.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    I think the biggest bear trap for the government is coming up.

    If it the easing of the lockdown turns out to be a mistake then the life becomes even more difficult for the government.

    Yep. The decision to curtail activity was mostly science-led, and worked in terms of not overloading the healthcare system. With hindsight it was probably the right call at the right time.

    The decision to unlock, or rather the series of small relaxations that will happen in practice, are much more political in nature, with ministers having to decide priorities from a range of options given by the scientists, against a background of widespread economic disruption.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Sandpit said:

    I think the biggest bear trap for the government is coming up.

    If it the easing of the lockdown turns out to be a mistake then the life becomes even more difficult for the government.

    Yep. The decision to curtail activity was mostly science-led, and worked in terms of not overloading the healthcare system. With hindsight it was probably the right call at the right time.

    The decision to unlock, or rather the series of small relaxations that will happen in practice, are much more political in nature, with ministers having to decide priorities from a range of options given by the scientists, against a background of widespread economic disruption.
    Every small relaxation will come with extra deaths. It's in the nature of a highly contagious disease. The Government just has to be upfront. "What we have done in the lockdown has saved the NHS and maybe prevented 460,000 dead. Easing up to save the economy may cause 20,000 deaths."

    This disease requires a terrible balancing of deaths by Government.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    Sandpit said:

    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329

    Are we taking bets on precisely which day the government will reverse ferret and abandon this app, and head towards the welcoming arms of the international solution and Apple/Google?

    Obviously that should be the day that Hancock resigns. This is one f-up that is totally unnecessary and I rather suspect is being driven by the Brexiteer world view that UK does not need international co-operation and agreements and we are exceptional.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,263

    Literally half of those front pages are of some bloke the public have never heard of having an affair, and the other half are from newspapers who would find a way to blame Boris if he personally cured every infectious disease on the planet.

    I agree with TSE that easing the lockdown is going to be much, much harder than what's gone before. But that holds true for governments around the world, and we will have at least some advantage in learning from the experiences of those that are re-opening before us.

    What did we learn from Italy's experience with the virus, and how many lives did it save here?
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Could you lift your right arm above the distant horizon, Mr Farage?

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1257931263849226241

    Metro photographer trolls Nigel Farage.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    Brokenshire on the ropes on R4 over Care Home testing.

  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,229

    So have I got this straight that the government are going to both issue next steps advice that whole swathes of businesses cannot reopen and that the furlough scheme is to wind down?

    When millions of new Tory voters are unceremonially thrown on the dole this summer across blue wall seats will that make then likely to continue to vote Tory...?

    I doubt that would be a fair representation.

    The furlough scheme will stay unchanged til end of June. Before then businesses will be encouraged to reopen if they can, guessing many will be reminded they are allowed to be open now and have chosen to be shut.

    The furlough scheme probably changes in July to reflect whatever the economic situation is then.
    Lets all be honest about this. Hospitality sector isn't reopening any time soon. We are not all about to go to the pub with our mates or have dinner out with a partner. Schools aren't reopening fully any time soon - some kids going back part time is the best we can hope for. The travel industry is screwed as long as social distancing is required and nations plan quarantine (for the first time in the UK's case).

    These people aren't about to go back to work. Their businesses aren't about to reopen and resume status quo ante. Which either means the people are thrown under the bus. Or we continue funding their old jobs indefinitely. I understand that its a hard call to keep funding jobs especially if you're a Tory, and that mass unemployment is less of a problem if you are a Tory, but that also was the old world.

    In the new world millions of surplus workers about to be thrown off the bus are Tory voters in seats needed to have a majority. Whilst a general election is 4 years away, people tend to have long memories of such things. The political fall out of the economic disaster will be here long after the medical crisis has faded.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Oooh by some fluke I seem to be first. I only just sauntered onto the site.

    The bad professor has managed to deflect away some of the opprobrium. Nothing like a salacious sex scandal laced with hyopcrisy to get people's teeth gnashing.

    But, yes, the UK has handled this pandemic very poorly indeed. Especially so in the early stages. It doesn't matter how many tories on here jump up and down and claim otherwise. It's incontrovertible.

    Has Boris had a good war so far? Well, he's the only world leader to have contracted the virus which is in part because of his careless attitude and arrogance. And, yet, in so doing he also won a lot of good will from people who are not his natural supporters, myself included.

    He should have followed the advice I had in an email from Patient Access the other day, and had a wank.
    I think this may become a post for the ages....
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Sandpit said:

    I think the biggest bear trap for the government is coming up.

    If it the easing of the lockdown turns out to be a mistake then the life becomes even more difficult for the government.

    Yep. The decision to curtail activity was mostly science-led, and worked in terms of not overloading the healthcare system. With hindsight it was probably the right call at the right time.

    The decision to unlock, or rather the series of small relaxations that will happen in practice, are much more political in nature, with ministers having to decide priorities from a range of options given by the scientists, against a background of widespread economic disruption.
    Every small relaxation will come with extra deaths. It's in the nature of a highly contagious disease. The Government just has to be upfront. "What we have done in the lockdown has saved the NHS and maybe prevented 460,000 dead. Easing up to save the economy may cause 20,000 deaths."

    This disease requires a terrible balancing of deaths by Government.
    They could allow some things to open, like fishing lakes and golf courses (Not the clubhouse or changing rooms mind) and
    They need to start shutting some more things down too. Like packed planes transiting between Belfast and London.
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,229

    Brokenshire on the ropes on R4 over Care Home testing.

    A succession of government ministers flailing badly trying to insist the turd sandwich is really Hawaiian Pizza with extra pineapple. The sight of Hancock berating the uppity doctor woman for her tone as she described personally telling people their relative has just died was truly funny...
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    You have to hand it to the blue PBers, in their world everything is going swimmingly well. Move along nothing to see here.


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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    Classic Sun headline there.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    If only all the stories were completely honest and accurate....

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329

    Are we taking bets on precisely which day the government will reverse ferret and abandon this app, and head towards the welcoming arms of the international solution and Apple/Google?

    Obviously that should be the day that Hancock resigns. This is one f-up that is totally unnecessary and I rather suspect is being driven by the Brexiteer world view that UK does not need international co-operation and agreements and we are exceptional.
    I can't see the trial lasting a week, and seriously hope there's a team working in the background using the international solution.

    I think the issue is a combination of the NHS and PHE not-invented-here mentality that we saw with the testing ramp-up problems, and a desire across government to capture more information about problematic locations, functionality which the Apple/Google solution specifically prohibits for privacy reasons.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Jonathan said:

    You have to hand it to the blue PBers, in their world everything is going swimmingly well. Move along nothing to see here.


    The blue PBers are helped by the fact that their political opponents have offered no early alterntive take on how to handle pre-lockdown, lockdown, post lockdown.

    Other than posting rather twattish images of Comical Ali or Inspector Frank Dreben.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    Telegraph:

    "The public are unaware of the “horrible” economic damage that is “coming around the corner” due to coronavirus, a former chancellor [Lord Lamont] has said, warning that the Government’s furlough scheme has lulled workers into a “false sense of security.” "
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Telegraph:

    "The public are unaware of the “horrible” economic damage that is “coming around the corner” due to coronavirus, a former chancellor [Lord Lamont] has said, warning that the Government’s furlough scheme has lulled workers into a “false sense of security.” "

    I agree with Lord Lamont. That’s not to say the furlough scheme was a mistake, but that is a consequence of it.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    Jonathan said:

    You have to hand it to the blue PBers, in their world everything is going swimmingly well. Move along nothing to see here.


    The blue PBers are helped by the fact that their political opponents have offered no early alterntive take on how to handle pre-lockdown, lockdown, post lockdown.

    Other than posting rather twattish images of Comical Ali or Inspector Frank Dreben.
    I dunno - the celebration of the anniversary of Bobby Sands death yesterday could be a pivotal moment in the revival of the Labour party.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    edited May 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329

    Are we taking bets on precisely which day the government will reverse ferret and abandon this app, and head towards the welcoming arms of the international solution and Apple/Google?

    Obviously that should be the day that Hancock resigns. This is one f-up that is totally unnecessary and I rather suspect is being driven by the Brexiteer world view that UK does not need international co-operation and agreements and we are exceptional.
    I can't see the trial lasting a week, and seriously hope there's a team working in the background using the international solution.

    I think the issue is a combination of the NHS and PHE not-invented-here mentality that we saw with the testing ramp-up problems, and a desire across government to capture more information about problematic locations, functionality which the Apple/Google solution specifically prohibits for privacy reasons.
    I agree that the latter point about collecting hotspot data must have been a factor. I suspect the desire of the experts to get that data, to help them, overrode the concerns of others involved e.g. app developers/privacy experts.

    Another one for the world's second longest running public inquiry.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Moth du Jour: Striped Hawkmoth

    A rare visitor from southern Europe, perhaps north Africa. The sort of beastie that will travel on the Spanish plume of hot air we are about to see in our weather.


  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    You have to hand it to the blue PBers, in their world everything is going swimmingly well. Move along nothing to see here.


    The blue PBers are helped by the fact that their political opponents have offered no early alterntive take on how to handle pre-lockdown, lockdown, post lockdown.

    Other than posting rather twattish images of Comical Ali or Inspector Frank Dreben.
    Bless. I would love to discuss alternatives and make the comparisons, but I am following government advice. As I understand it is not the time to discuss these things. To do so would be so reckless. 🤷‍♂️

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    Er - didn't Nicola spend 24hrs trying to get her Doc mate off the hook before folding ?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You have to hand it to the blue PBers, in their world everything is going swimmingly well. Move along nothing to see here.


    The blue PBers are helped by the fact that their political opponents have offered no early alterntive take on how to handle pre-lockdown, lockdown, post lockdown.

    Other than posting rather twattish images of Comical Ali or Inspector Frank Dreben.
    Bless. I would love to discuss alternatives and make the comparisons, but I am following government advice. As I understand it is not the time to discuss these things. To do so would be so reckless. 🤷‍♂️

    If you actually had a case to make, on how we should handle things differently to the Govt., past experience says you would not be slow to make it.

    Instead - Inspector Frank Dreben will have to suffice.

    Bless.

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    So have I got this straight that the government are going to both issue next steps advice that whole swathes of businesses cannot reopen and that the furlough scheme is to wind down?

    When millions of new Tory voters are unceremonially thrown on the dole this summer across blue wall seats will that make then likely to continue to vote Tory...?

    I doubt that would be a fair representation.

    The furlough scheme will stay unchanged til end of June. Before then businesses will be encouraged to reopen if they can, guessing many will be reminded they are allowed to be open now and have chosen to be shut.

    The furlough scheme probably changes in July to reflect whatever the economic situation is then.
    Lets all be honest about this. Hospitality sector isn't reopening any time soon. We are not all about to go to the pub with our mates or have dinner out with a partner. Schools aren't reopening fully any time soon - some kids going back part time is the best we can hope for. The travel industry is screwed as long as social distancing is required and nations plan quarantine (for the first time in the UK's case).

    These people aren't about to go back to work. Their businesses aren't about to reopen and resume status quo ante. Which either means the people are thrown under the bus. Or we continue funding their old jobs indefinitely. I understand that its a hard call to keep funding jobs especially if you're a Tory, and that mass unemployment is less of a problem if you are a Tory, but that also was the old world.

    In the new world millions of surplus workers about to be thrown off the bus are Tory voters in seats needed to have a majority. Whilst a general election is 4 years away, people tend to have long memories of such things. The political fall out of the economic disaster will be here long after the medical crisis has faded.
    Okay, so you've identified a number of problems, the issue is how do we move to identifying solutions.

    The government can't keep paying people almost their full salary to not work, and a lot of companies are going to find that when allowed to open they can only afford to keep on half their existing team.

    How to we deal with those made redundant, some of whom (but not all) will have been well looked-after by their employers such as airlines?

    Any plan of action from here is going to result in a *lot* of bad headlines and corner-cases for the government, but the only real solution after June or July is to move everyone without a job onto Universal Credit, as would happen in a more usual recession.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226

    Moth du Jour: Striped Hawkmoth

    A rare visitor from southern Europe, perhaps north Africa. The sort of beastie that will travel on the Spanish plume of hot air we are about to see in our weather.


    Lovely.

    But is it not worrying we are about to get another plume? I don't know but feels like one of the warmest and certainly driest springs in a very long time.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Moth du Jour: Striped Hawkmoth

    A rare visitor from southern Europe, perhaps north Africa. The sort of beastie that will travel on the Spanish plume of hot air we are about to see in our weather.


    Lovely.

    But is it not worrying we are about to get another plume? I don't know but feels like one of the warmest and certainly driest springs in a very long time.
    Fear not, we get an Arctic blast for the weekend!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,156

    Moth du Jour: Striped Hawkmoth

    A rare visitor from southern Europe, perhaps north Africa. The sort of beastie that will travel on the Spanish plume of hot air we are about to see in our weather.


    Great pictures. May I ask whether the moths are somehow trapped to be so amenable to photography? And if so, whether you then release them?

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226

    Moth du Jour: Striped Hawkmoth

    A rare visitor from southern Europe, perhaps north Africa. The sort of beastie that will travel on the Spanish plume of hot air we are about to see in our weather.


    Lovely.

    But is it not worrying we are about to get another plume? I don't know but feels like one of the warmest and certainly driest springs in a very long time.
    Fear not, we get an Arctic blast for the weekend!
    That'll stop the police getting overworked arresting sunbathers then!
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    Of course.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    Literally half of those front pages are of some bloke the public have never heard of having an affair, and the other half are from newspapers who would find a way to blame Boris if he personally cured every infectious disease on the planet.

    I agree with TSE that easing the lockdown is going to be much, much harder than what's gone before. But that holds true for governments around the world, and we will have at least some advantage in learning from the experiences of those that are re-opening before us.

    That worked well with the virus planning , they really used their 2-3 week advantage well.
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,229
    Sandpit said:

    So have I got this straight that the government are going to both issue next steps advice that whole swathes of businesses cannot reopen and that the furlough scheme is to wind down?

    When millions of new Tory voters are unceremonially thrown on the dole this summer across blue wall seats will that make then likely to continue to vote Tory...?

    I doubt that would be a fair representation.

    The furlough scheme will stay unchanged til end of June. Before then businesses will be encouraged to reopen if they can, guessing many will be reminded they are allowed to be open now and have chosen to be shut.

    The furlough scheme probably changes in July to reflect whatever the economic situation is then.
    Lets all be honest about this. Hospitality sector isn't reopening any time soon. We are not all about to go to the pub with our mates or have dinner out with a partner. Schools aren't reopening fully any time soon - some kids going back part time is the best we can hope for. The travel industry is screwed as long as social distancing is required and nations plan quarantine (for the first time in the UK's case).

    These people aren't about to go back to work. Their businesses aren't about to reopen and resume status quo ante. Which either means the people are thrown under the bus. Or we continue funding their old jobs indefinitely. I understand that its a hard call to keep funding jobs especially if you're a Tory, and that mass unemployment is less of a problem if you are a Tory, but that also was the old world.

    In the new world millions of surplus workers about to be thrown off the bus are Tory voters in seats needed to have a majority. Whilst a general election is 4 years away, people tend to have long memories of such things. The political fall out of the economic disaster will be here long after the medical crisis has faded.
    Okay, so you've identified a number of problems, the issue is how do we move to identifying solutions.

    The government can't keep paying people almost their full salary to not work, and a lot of companies are going to find that when allowed to open they can only afford to keep on half their existing team.

    How to we deal with those made redundant, some of whom (but not all) will have been well looked-after by their employers such as airlines?

    Any plan of action from here is going to result in a *lot* of bad headlines and corner-cases for the government, but the only real solution after June or July is to move everyone without a job onto Universal Credit, as would happen in a more usual recession.
    Oh I get it - can't keep funding jobs that no longer exist. Problem for the government is that a vast army of unemployed and no prospects of that industry coming back when you hold that seat presents a unique problem for the Tories politically.

    Where the real damage will be done will be hard working middle class grafters being dumped onto the shitshow that is Universal Credit. IDS and his successors got away with demolishing the poor and the sick because they don't have a loud voice. I am already hearing anecdotage of middle class people rocking up to claim UC and in their horror asking "is that it?" - the myth that scroungers live it large is about to be dropped like ton of bricks onto Sun and Mail readers as they themselves try and claim and find it pays 2/3rdsof fuck all.

    Tories better hope for a miraculous mutation of this virus into a dormant state or a quick antibody test revealing most of the world is now immune.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I despise Farage's politics, however he didn't break the lockdown rules for personal reasons. Whether I like him or not he is a journalist and he went to report on a news story. That is not against the rules.

    If Carole Cadwaldr (sp?) or Robert Peston or Piers Morgan or other journalists I dislike did the same thing it would be the same.

    No matter how bad things get healthwise it is not OK to tell journalists they can't report the news.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    Will Ferguson's model still be used even though he is no longer on SAGE to interpret it?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Another beautiful day in God's country, 35 sunny days out of the last 36 and just the job for lockdown, garden in wonderful shape and looking great.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329

    Are we taking bets on precisely which day the government will reverse ferret and abandon this app, and head towards the welcoming arms of the international solution and Apple/Google?

    Obviously that should be the day that Hancock resigns. This is one f-up that is totally unnecessary and I rather suspect is being driven by the Brexiteer world view that UK does not need international co-operation and agreements and we are exceptional.
    I can't see the trial lasting a week, and seriously hope there's a team working in the background using the international solution.

    I think the issue is a combination of the NHS and PHE not-invented-here mentality that we saw with the testing ramp-up problems, and a desire across government to capture more information about problematic locations, functionality which the Apple/Google solution specifically prohibits for privacy reasons.
    I agree that the latter point about collecting hotspot data must have been a factor. I suspect the desire of the experts to get that data, to help them, overrode the concerns of others involved e.g. app developers/privacy experts.

    Another one for the world's second longest running public inquiry.
    Apple and Google have done a serious favour to the citizens of the world with their framework development. Hats off to them, especially Google who are usually big fans of big data.

    Without their joint approach, every world government would have implemented some Orwellian tracking app of their dreams, and made it impossible to live life without it. As it is, the A/G solution is the ONLY solution that will actually work for tracking the necessary social interactions to stop the disease spreading.

    Hopefully the message that there is only one workable solution will spread around the world faster than the nasty virus did in the first place.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    Given he is Boris acolyte you can be sure he is crap and his model will also be crap, only the model still to be proven.
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    We need to come out of lockdown as soon as possible for the sake of our sanity, economy and freedom. But in a safe way. So we can't reopen everything yet.

    So Boris needs to present a clear plan on Sunday to us coming out with stages and timescales. This will maintain the support of the nation.

    We don't want the wishy washy 'plan' put forward by the Scottish executive who seem happy to restrict people's freedom for as long as possible.

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I want to qualify what I wrote earlier. Let's talk football.

    The Government had a piss-poor first half and went about 5-0 down.

    The second half they have played much better, probably narrowly winning it.


    There may be several more legs to play.
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    kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    malcolmg said:

    Another beautiful day in God's country, 35 sunny days out of the last 36 and just the job for lockdown, garden in wonderful shape and looking great.

    impressive that you keep such close track of the weather here on Sjælland :-)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    geoffw said:

    Moth du Jour: Striped Hawkmoth

    A rare visitor from southern Europe, perhaps north Africa. The sort of beastie that will travel on the Spanish plume of hot air we are about to see in our weather.


    Great pictures. May I ask whether the moths are somehow trapped to be so amenable to photography? And if so, whether you then release them?

    A bloody great big 125 watt mercury vapour bulb lures them in to a plastic container with baffles. The moths often don't go inside the trap, but sit nearby on a white sheet hung up for the process. This beast actually did go inside the trap - it made such a racket rattling around I thought a rodent had got in.

    Then you release them, either before it gets light or else keep them inside the trap out the sun until it starts to get dark again. The real concern is birds predating them. They soon learn there is an easy meal if you oversleep...

    No moths were harmed in any way in bringing you these images. (Occassionally, really unusual specimens that can't be identified from photographs require to be collected to prove the record, but for something as obvious to identify as this, you just let it go free again.)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Ave_it said:

    We need to come out of lockdown as soon as possible for the sake of our sanity, economy and freedom. But in a safe way. So we can't reopen everything yet.

    So Boris needs to present a clear plan on Sunday to us coming out with stages and timescales. This will maintain the support of the nation.

    We don't want the wishy washy 'plan' put forward by the Scottish executive who seem happy to restrict people's freedom for as long as possible.

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.

    Agreed, though as we locked down a week or two after Germany, France, Spain and Italy we should also open up a week or two after them as well and see how their lockdown develops first
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,718
    Looking at the front pages I have a strong suspicion Prof Ferguson was thrown under the bus at this precise moment to deflect the "Worst in Europe" headlines. They have partially succeeded in doing so.
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    fox327fox327 Posts: 366
    edited May 2020

    I think the biggest bear trap for the government is coming up.

    If the easing of the lockdown turns out to be a mistake then life becomes even more difficult for the government.

    The government may as well get used to having a hard life. We are going to have easing of the lockdown leading to fears over transmission of the virus at work, reductions in financial support for those not working, and more. This criticism is happening even before the changes have been made. The Times headline on 1st January 2020 was "Britain sees in new year on a wave of optimism", "Johnson promises decade of prosperity". It did not work out quite like that.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    I want to qualify what I wrote earlier. Let's talk football.

    The Government had a piss-poor first half and went about 5-0 down.

    The second half they have played much better, probably narrowly winning it.


    There may be several more legs to play.

    The score was not 5-0 first half. It perhaps SHOULD have been, but Labour had 11 goalies on the pitch, arguing about which of them would take a penalty that never came....
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,812
    Barnesian said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    Will Ferguson's model still be used even though he is no longer on SAGE to interpret it?
    It wouldn't surprise me if Ferguson's replacement on SAGE is one of his senior co-workers.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
    Of course it has. But what was the cost/benefit?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    So how do we get out of furlough? That is surely the challenge that is making the government lose sleep at night. Getting some of the recipients back to work is an obvious answer so it very much feeds into the lifting of the lockdown.

    At the moment there are 6.3m people having wages paid by the government in large part. I have not seen any clear statistics about how many of these are on 100% of wages and how many are on 80%. A rough rule of thumb might be that those on 80% should be deeply concerned about whether their employers are going to want them back.

    We need to open a wider range of shops with social distancing. Some won't open but if they go into liquidation/administration then we will have a clearer idea where we are.
    We need to get construction workers back to work. That's a difficult one because a lot of work on site requires close contact. Maybe masks should become as compulsory on a worksite as the hardhat? We need to find a way to get office workers back to work. Possibly on a phased basis with some form of rotation. Once these people are back cafes will find it worthwhile being open again, even if only for takeaways. I would hope that the measures would reduce those on furlough by roughly half.

    Getting those people to their work safely is going to be the biggest challenge. The message will still be to WFH where you can so that the crush on public transport is reduced but that is going to be the biggest threat to the R number, no doubt about it.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    kingbongo said:

    malcolmg said:

    Another beautiful day in God's country, 35 sunny days out of the last 36 and just the job for lockdown, garden in wonderful shape and looking great.

    impressive that you keep such close track of the weather here on Sjælland :-)
    Excellent that Denmark is also getting similar weather. Has been best spring I can remember for a very long time. 36 days with only some rain on one day and not even heavy is unusual. Long may it continue. ;)B)
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    I want to qualify what I wrote earlier. Let's talk football.

    The Government had a piss-poor first half and went about 5-0 down.

    The second half they have played much better, probably narrowly winning it.


    There may be several more legs to play.

    The score was not 5-0 first half. It perhaps SHOULD have been, but Labour had 11 goalies on the pitch, arguing about which of them would take a penalty that never came....
    Rather telling that you think the government is engaged in a match against Labour, rather than the Coronavirus.

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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,229
    Ave_it said:

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.

    A lengthy list just in hospitality, and don't forget all of the supply and support businesses below them who have no customers. Unless you extend the scheme to the wholesalers and the cleaners and the service companies and the suppliers then you'll not be able to reopen restaurants as they won't be able to get food to cook.

    So thats hospitality. As the guidance remains WFH unless you cannot, that means public transport not running fully as you cannot social distance people on trains buses and planes. Which is all their staff, their support staff, the businesses who sell stuff to the people who use public transport.

    Schools and nurseries? Can't reopen as you can't socially distance kids. A possible limited part time reopening is in the offing. I'd already covered wholesalers who supply school meals in the first paragraph, but as kids aren't going back their parents can't go back regardless of the sector they work in. Nor can you say "get the grandparents to look after them whilst you work" as they are in the protected group.

    Etc etc. Its not as simple as "end the furlough scheme" when so many people will be unable to return to work. And thats to say nothing of businesses who will be thrown under the bus by "restaurants can reopen for takeaway only" which means no support which means they fail. With March rents barely paid it seems unlikely that June rents will be paid, so expect an avalanche of insolvencies from mid-June onwards...
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    Ave_it said:

    We need to come out of lockdown as soon as possible for the sake of our sanity, economy and freedom. But in a safe way. So we can't reopen everything yet.

    So Boris needs to present a clear plan on Sunday to us coming out with stages and timescales. This will maintain the support of the nation.

    We don't want the wishy washy 'plan' put forward by the Scottish executive who seem happy to restrict people's freedom for as long as possible.

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.

    I agree. That's exactly what he needs to do. On the furlough, maybe a tapering/transition. Not everyone will have jobs to go back to.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited May 2020

    So have I got this straight that the government are going to both issue next steps advice that whole swathes of businesses cannot reopen and that the furlough scheme is to wind down?

    When millions of new Tory voters are unceremonially thrown on the dole this summer across blue wall seats will that make then likely to continue to vote Tory...?

    I doubt that would be a fair representation.

    The furlough scheme will stay unchanged til end of June. Before then businesses will be encouraged to reopen if they can, guessing many will be reminded they are allowed to be open now and have chosen to be shut.

    The furlough scheme probably changes in July to reflect whatever the economic situation is then.
    Lets all be honest about this. Hospitality sector isn't reopening any time soon. We are not all about to go to the pub with our mates or have dinner out with a partner. Schools aren't reopening fully any time soon - some kids going back part time is the best we can hope for. The travel industry is screwed as long as social distancing is required and nations plan quarantine (for the first time in the UK's case).

    These people aren't about to go back to work. Their businesses aren't about to reopen and resume status quo ante. Which either means the people are thrown under the bus. Or we continue funding their old jobs indefinitely. I understand that its a hard call to keep funding jobs especially if you're a Tory, and that mass unemployment is less of a problem if you are a Tory, but that also was the old world.

    In the new world millions of surplus workers about to be thrown off the bus are Tory voters in seats needed to have a majority. Whilst a general election is 4 years away, people tend to have long memories of such things. The political fall out of the economic disaster will be here long after the medical crisis has faded.
    They are not being thrown under the bus, Sunak has said he will continue to fund furlough at at least 60% of pay past June, even though most businesses will likely have reopened by then.

    At the moment the Government is pursuing the most social democratic economic policies of any Tory government since Macmillan, while also still committing to end free movement and the transition period, they are policies designed to appeal to working class Leavers
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I despise Farage's politics, however he didn't break the lockdown rules for personal reasons. Whether I like him or not he is a journalist and he went to report on a news story. That is not against the rules.

    If Carole Cadwaldr (sp?) or Robert Peston or Piers Morgan or other journalists I dislike did the same thing it would be the same.

    No matter how bad things get healthwise it is not OK to tell journalists they can't report the news.

    In way way is Farage a journalist - speaking as a former NEC member of the NUJ
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    Given he is Boris acolyte you can be sure he is crap and his model will also be crap, only the model still to be proven.
    Except he's not a Boris acolyte though. When he's veered into politics on Twitter its as a Remainer who seems keen on the Lib Dems.

    He was there for his science not his politics or views on Brexit.
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    HYUFD said:

    Ave_it said:

    We need to come out of lockdown as soon as possible for the sake of our sanity, economy and freedom. But in a safe way. So we can't reopen everything yet.

    So Boris needs to present a clear plan on Sunday to us coming out with stages and timescales. This will maintain the support of the nation.

    We don't want the wishy washy 'plan' put forward by the Scottish executive who seem happy to restrict people's freedom for as long as possible.

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.

    Agreed, though as we locked down a week or two after Germany, France, Spain and Italy we should also open up a week or two after them as well and see how their lockdown develops first
    Entirely correct HYUFD. I am not proposing any significant lockdown changes until 1 June. But Boris should announce these on Sunday to give businesses 3 weeks to prepare.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    fox327 said:

    I think the biggest bear trap for the government is coming up.

    If the easing of the lockdown turns out to be a mistake then life becomes even more difficult for the government.

    The government may as well get used to having a hard life. We are going to have easing of the lockdown leading to fears over transmission of the virus at work, reductions in financial support for those not working, and more. This criticism is happening even before the changes have been made. The Times headline on 1st January 2020 was "Britain sees in new year on a wave of optimism", "Johnson promises decade of prosperity". It did not work out quite like that.
    His Brexit car crash is waiting in the wings to be the coup de grace as well
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010
    FF43 said:

    Looking at the front pages I have a strong suspicion Prof Ferguson was thrown under the bus at this precise moment to deflect the "Worst in Europe" headlines. They have partially succeeded in doing so.

    Maybe the Government is happy with the Worst in Europe headlines. They will want to keep the population scared. A message that we passed the peak four weeks ago and deaths are falling would not help a gradual and orderly end to lockdown. Similarly, moving to the deaths in all settings figure has made them look worse. (It is true that deaths are still increasing in care homes but I don't see that that affects how you lift lockdown as most of us never go in one)
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
    Of course it has. But what was the cost/benefit?
    As the R figure was below 1 before the lockdown then surely the pre lockdown advice had the bigger impact.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    FF43 said:

    Looking at the front pages I have a strong suspicion Prof Ferguson was thrown under the bus at this precise moment to deflect the "Worst in Europe" headlines. They have partially succeeded in doing so.

    At the expense of the breaking of the lockdown nationwide. If he becomes known as Mr Lockdown then the lid will come off it. Good enough for him, etc... After all he only broke guidelines, not the law, woolly as that latter is.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999

    Sandpit said:

    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329

    Are we taking bets on precisely which day the government will reverse ferret and abandon this app, and head towards the welcoming arms of the international solution and Apple/Google?

    Obviously that should be the day that Hancock resigns. This is one f-up that is totally unnecessary and I rather suspect is being driven by the Brexiteer world view that UK does not need international co-operation and agreements and we are exceptional.
    The reason why they've done it this way, apparently in complete contravention all sense, that the tory party intend to exploit, politically and commercially, the data.

    #classicdom
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
    Of course it has. But what was the cost/benefit?
    As the R figure was below 1 before the lockdown then surely the pre lockdown advice had the bigger impact.
    Except it wasn't, unless you manipulate the data.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    edited May 2020

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
    Of course it has. But what was the cost/benefit?
    As the R figure was below 1 before the lockdown then surely the pre lockdown advice had the bigger impact.
    Certainly Prof Ferguson thinks it (edit: the lockdown) was of no serious benefit.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
    Of course it has. But what was the cost/benefit?
    Well given the virus is an exponential killer..
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,812
    I don't think n the government were 5-0 down at half time.

    The one thing they did an excellent job on was the staging and build up to lockdown over a period and the communication of that. It is fair to argue that all that should have commenced somewhat earlier, but I wouldn't change much at all about the how it was introduced. The staging fed in to the high levels of public support and compliance with the lockdown.

    Of course, the high level of support for the b lockdown means they are going to have to be equally if not more savvy about reading the lockdown, a process that cannot necessarily be as linear as the introduction.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    Given he is Boris acolyte you can be sure he is crap and his model will also be crap, only the model still to be proven.
    Except he's not a Boris acolyte though. When he's veered into politics on Twitter its as a Remainer who seems keen on the Lib Dems.

    He was there for his science not his politics or views on Brexit.
    Well given he has no common sense, thinks he is above his own advice and lies like your average Tory, we are well shot of him. Will be shedloads of so called experts able to take over from the plonker.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,156
    Those long interviews of Freddie Sayers with CV19 experts on Unherd are seriously worth following. Sayers lets the expert talk, with only nudging steers to the points he wants aired. It shows up the usual ineffectiveness of the broadcast media.
    The German virologist Professor Hendrik Streeck has convinced me that in the very likely absence of a vaccine we'll have to learn to live with this virus and modify our behaviour by careful observance of "hygiene" in all social settings. Also that herd immunity is not a black or white thing, and that infection by fleeting contact with a carrier may easily happen but not give rise to serious illness.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,981

    Ave_it said:

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.

    A lengthy list just in hospitality, and don't forget all of the supply and support businesses below them who have no customers. Unless you extend the scheme to the wholesalers and the cleaners and the service companies and the suppliers then you'll not be able to reopen restaurants as they won't be able to get food to cook.

    So thats hospitality. As the guidance remains WFH unless you cannot, that means public transport not running fully as you cannot social distance people on trains buses and planes. Which is all their staff, their support staff, the businesses who sell stuff to the people who use public transport.

    Schools and nurseries? Can't reopen as you can't socially distance kids. A possible limited part time reopening is in the offing. I'd already covered wholesalers who supply school meals in the first paragraph, but as kids aren't going back their parents can't go back regardless of the sector they work in. Nor can you say "get the grandparents to look after them whilst you work" as they are in the protected group.

    Etc etc. Its not as simple as "end the furlough scheme" when so many people will be unable to return to work. And thats to say nothing of businesses who will be thrown under the bus by "restaurants can reopen for takeaway only" which means no support which means they fail. With March rents barely paid it seems unlikely that June rents will be paid, so expect an avalanche of insolvencies from mid-June onwards...
    Our local independent pub got a £25,000 grant. They expect it to have been fully spent by the end of May - my one surprise was that I thought they had bought and mortgaged the pub - it turns out they are renting it.
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,229
    HYUFD said:

    They are not being thrown under the bus, Sunak has said he will continue to fund furlough at at least 60% of pay past June, even though most businesses will likely have reopened by then.

    Most businesses using furlough *will not* have reopened by then.

  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,949
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329

    Are we taking bets on precisely which day the government will reverse ferret and abandon this app, and head towards the welcoming arms of the international solution and Apple/Google?

    Obviously that should be the day that Hancock resigns. This is one f-up that is totally unnecessary and I rather suspect is being driven by the Brexiteer world view that UK does not need international co-operation and agreements and we are exceptional.
    The reason why they've done it this way, apparently in complete contravention all sense, that the tory party intend to exploit, politically and commercially, the data.

    #classicdom
    To be fair, I'd trust Apple and Google with my data much more than the government.

    And I don't trust Apple or Google at all.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    On furlough, the Gov't needs to keep paying businesses/staff it is legally preventing from opening. If businesses can reopen but don't have the footfall after their customers can visit etc under guidelines, those are the redundancies/bankruptcies.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I despise Farage's politics, however he didn't break the lockdown rules for personal reasons. Whether I like him or not he is a journalist and he went to report on a news story. That is not against the rules.

    If Carole Cadwaldr (sp?) or Robert Peston or Piers Morgan or other journalists I dislike did the same thing it would be the same.

    No matter how bad things get healthwise it is not OK to tell journalists they can't report the news.

    In way way is Farage a journalist - speaking as a former NEC member of the NUJ
    With all due respect union affiliations are not what makes you a journalist. Whether we like him or not he is, he reports on the news and has a show on LBC. He's every bit as much a journalists as Carole Cadwaldr etc
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    Lets all be honest about this. Hospitality sector isn't reopening any time soon. We are not all about to go to the pub with our mates or have dinner out with a partner. Schools aren't reopening fully any time soon - some kids going back part time is the best we can hope for. The travel industry is screwed as long as social distancing is required and nations plan quarantine (for the first time in the UK's case).

    These people aren't about to go back to work. Their businesses aren't about to reopen and resume status quo ante. Which either means the people are thrown under the bus. Or we continue funding their old jobs indefinitely. I understand that its a hard call to keep funding jobs especially if you're a Tory, and that mass unemployment is less of a problem if you are a Tory, but that also was the old world.

    In the new world millions of surplus workers about to be thrown off the bus are Tory voters in seats needed to have a majority. Whilst a general election is 4 years away, people tend to have long memories of such things. The political fall out of the economic disaster will be here long after the medical crisis has faded.
    Okay, so you've identified a number of problems, the issue is how do we move to identifying solutions.

    The government can't keep paying people almost their full salary to not work, and a lot of companies are going to find that when allowed to open they can only afford to keep on half their existing team.

    How to we deal with those made redundant, some of whom (but not all) will have been well looked-after by their employers such as airlines?

    Any plan of action from here is going to result in a *lot* of bad headlines and corner-cases for the government, but the only real solution after June or July is to move everyone without a job onto Universal Credit, as would happen in a more usual recession.
    Oh I get it - can't keep funding jobs that no longer exist. Problem for the government is that a vast army of unemployed and no prospects of that industry coming back when you hold that seat presents a unique problem for the Tories politically.

    Where the real damage will be done will be hard working middle class grafters being dumped onto the shitshow that is Universal Credit. IDS and his successors got away with demolishing the poor and the sick because they don't have a loud voice. I am already hearing anecdotage of middle class people rocking up to claim UC and in their horror asking "is that it?" - the myth that scroungers live it large is about to be dropped like ton of bricks onto Sun and Mail readers as they themselves try and claim and find it pays 2/3rdsof fuck all.

    Tories better hope for a miraculous mutation of this virus into a dormant state or a quick antibody test revealing most of the world is now immune.
    I'm really not sure that anyone bar a small number of left-wing activists is thinking about the issues in such a base political way.

    With a lot of the economy shut down, and a couple of hundred billion in borrowing happening this year as a minimum, the priority is getting as many people working as possible, then making sure that those who can't work don't endure unnecessary hardship until the economy recovers. Additional measures such as banning repossessions for a year may also help those temporarily unemployed.

    From a political point of view, the next election is four years away - there's an awful lot that can and will happen between now and then. The government has a safe majority in the meantime to accomplish what they can, which Labour (and other parties) can choose to either constructively engage or reflexively oppose.
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    malcolmg said:

    Literally half of those front pages are of some bloke the public have never heard of having an affair, and the other half are from newspapers who would find a way to blame Boris if he personally cured every infectious disease on the planet.

    I agree with TSE that easing the lockdown is going to be much, much harder than what's gone before. But that holds true for governments around the world, and we will have at least some advantage in learning from the experiences of those that are re-opening before us.

    That worked well with the virus planning , they really used their 2-3 week advantage well.
    Learning from previous failures to learn is the most valuable kind.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    kyf_100 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    They'd rather have headlines about someone no-one's heard of who can't keep his pants on, than the nightmare they're having with their NHS contact app.
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329

    Are we taking bets on precisely which day the government will reverse ferret and abandon this app, and head towards the welcoming arms of the international solution and Apple/Google?

    Obviously that should be the day that Hancock resigns. This is one f-up that is totally unnecessary and I rather suspect is being driven by the Brexiteer world view that UK does not need international co-operation and agreements and we are exceptional.
    The reason why they've done it this way, apparently in complete contravention all sense, that the tory party intend to exploit, politically and commercially, the data.

    #classicdom
    To be fair, I'd trust Apple and Google with my data much more than the government.

    And I don't trust Apple or Google at all.
    But Apple are proposing a system where they don't have access to the data.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Pro_Rata said:

    I don't think n the government were 5-0 down at half time.

    The one thing they did an excellent job on was the staging and build up to lockdown over a period and the communication of that. It is fair to argue that all that should have commenced somewhat earlier, but I wouldn't change much at all about the how it was introduced. The staging fed in to the high levels of public support and compliance with the lockdown.

    On the contrary, the gradual ramp up was one of their biggest errors. By saying that there was stricter measures to follow, they provided a perverse incentive for people to get out whilst they still could. And that led directly to the scenes of crowds and queues. The public were generally about two steps ahead of the government.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    Password oddity: logging into Paypal I get a message purportedly from Norton (who I don't subscribe to) telling my password has been compromised, why not let it change the password and store it in my vault? I did, briefly, then change my mind and change the PayPal password to one I've never used before. Logging out and going back into Paypal, I get the Norton message again that the password has been compromised (not possible as not used before).

    This looks like a classic scam. But googling "Norton password manager scam" doesn't show up anything of interest. Any suggestions?

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Ave_it said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ave_it said:

    We need to come out of lockdown as soon as possible for the sake of our sanity, economy and freedom. But in a safe way. So we can't reopen everything yet.

    So Boris needs to present a clear plan on Sunday to us coming out with stages and timescales. This will maintain the support of the nation.

    We don't want the wishy washy 'plan' put forward by the Scottish executive who seem happy to restrict people's freedom for as long as possible.

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.

    Agreed, though as we locked down a week or two after Germany, France, Spain and Italy we should also open up a week or two after them as well and see how their lockdown develops first
    Entirely correct HYUFD. I am not proposing any significant lockdown changes until 1 June. But Boris should announce these on Sunday to give businesses 3 weeks to prepare.
    Some enlightened companies are already planning for it and making big changes for the start of easing. It is obvious from what we have seen what is going to happen.
    It is going to be bad for plenty, some smug Tories will soon get to see how what they counted as lazy indolent scroungers manage to survive at first hand.
    As said earlier they will not find it a bed of roses.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited May 2020

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
    Of course it has. But what was the cost/benefit?
    As the R figure was below 1 before the lockdown then surely the pre lockdown advice had the bigger impact.
    Ah, so when you said you wanted us to pay attention to and debate that graph what you actually meant was you wanted us to uncritically accept it as true as it backed up your dogmatic preconceived view.

    Did you even read and process any of the criticism of that chart? Did you read and process any of the criticism of the person who produced the chart?
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010

    Ave_it said:

    And we need to stop furlough after 30 June except for those businesses which legally cannot operate eg pubs.

    A lengthy list just in hospitality, and don't forget all of the supply and support businesses below them who have no customers. Unless you extend the scheme to the wholesalers and the cleaners and the service companies and the suppliers then you'll not be able to reopen restaurants as they won't be able to get food to cook.

    So thats hospitality. As the guidance remains WFH unless you cannot, that means public transport not running fully as you cannot social distance people on trains buses and planes. Which is all their staff, their support staff, the businesses who sell stuff to the people who use public transport.

    Schools and nurseries? Can't reopen as you can't socially distance kids. A possible limited part time reopening is in the offing. I'd already covered wholesalers who supply school meals in the first paragraph, but as kids aren't going back their parents can't go back regardless of the sector they work in. Nor can you say "get the grandparents to look after them whilst you work" as they are in the protected group.

    Etc etc. Its not as simple as "end the furlough scheme" when so many people will be unable to return to work. And thats to say nothing of businesses who will be thrown under the bus by "restaurants can reopen for takeaway only" which means no support which means they fail. With March rents barely paid it seems unlikely that June rents will be paid, so expect an avalanche of insolvencies from mid-June onwards...
    Surely public transport needs to open as fully as possible to enable those who have to travel to work to do so as safely as possible. One of the things that caused overcrowding on the Tube at the beginning of lockdown was the reduction in serviced
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    The Queen has phoned her PM to congratulate him on his success in fighting Covid, she phoned Australian PM Scott Morrison last night

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8288797/Queen-calls-Scott-Morrison-congratulate-Australia-success-fighting-coronavirus.html
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    I despise Farage's politics, however he didn't break the lockdown rules for personal reasons. Whether I like him or not he is a journalist and he went to report on a news story. That is not against the rules.

    If Carole Cadwaldr (sp?) or Robert Peston or Piers Morgan or other journalists I dislike did the same thing it would be the same.

    No matter how bad things get healthwise it is not OK to tell journalists they can't report the news.

    In way way is Farage a journalist - speaking as a former NEC member of the NUJ
    With all due respect union affiliations are not what makes you a journalist. Whether we like him or not he is, he reports on the news and has a show on LBC. He's every bit as much a journalists as Carole Cadwaldr etc
    Farage is not a journalist. He is a politician who is published.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    I despise Farage's politics, however he didn't break the lockdown rules for personal reasons. Whether I like him or not he is a journalist and he went to report on a news story. That is not against the rules.

    If Carole Cadwaldr (sp?) or Robert Peston or Piers Morgan or other journalists I dislike did the same thing it would be the same.

    No matter how bad things get healthwise it is not OK to tell journalists they can't report the news.

    In way way is Farage a journalist - speaking as a former NEC member of the NUJ
    Well he isn't an MEP any more!
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,718
    edited May 2020

    FF43 said:

    Looking at the front pages I have a strong suspicion Prof Ferguson was thrown under the bus at this precise moment to deflect the "Worst in Europe" headlines. They have partially succeeded in doing so.

    Maybe the Government is happy with the Worst in Europe headlines. They will want to keep the population scared. A message that we passed the peak four weeks ago and deaths are falling would not help a gradual and orderly end to lockdown. Similarly, moving to the deaths in all settings figure has made them look worse. (It is true that deaths are still increasing in care homes but I don't see that that affects how you lift lockdown as most of us never go in one)
    They are not at all happy with those headlines. They are very keen to say you can't make comparisons.

    On @Topping's point that Ferguson is undermining his own argument for lockdown. If that's the case, why would the government want to undermine their own mandated lockdown? It's a valid point. Nevertheless I am fairly sure this story has come out through news management. The papers running with it on their front pages are very well briefed.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    HYUFD said:

    The Queen has phoned her PM to congratulate him on his success in fighting Covid, she phoned Australian PM Scott Morrison last night

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8288797/Queen-calls-Scott-Morrison-congratulate-Australia-success-fighting-coronavirus.html

    “her PM”... vomit.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    edited May 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyway Prof Ferguson has been found and swiftly tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion for breaking the rules just as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer was. He's yesterday's news. Today's news is still the lack of restrictions on flights and the looming app disaster.

    His modelling isn't yesterday's news though. It is still being used to guide our lockdown strategy. Swedish experts say it is effectively nonsense.
    His own breaking of the rules/hypocrisy has nothing to do with how good or not his model is, that's another discussion entirely.
    It shows he doesn't really, really, really think that lockdown is a sensible (or effective) measure.

    And he has shown this quite elegantly.
    The lockdown has definitely been effective at lowering the transmission rate.
    Of course it has. But what was the cost/benefit?
    Well given the virus is an exponential killer..
    We don't know. As we have all noted on here, much of its exponentialness was people fitting a line to a series of data points. All kinds of anecdotes are emerging (yes, anecdotes) of people, communities having CV symptoms in December. We don't know. But at the moment we are facing an economic challenge the likes of which we won't have seen for decades.

    The cost of a human life, as per the govt's calcs is £1.8m. By most estimates we have spent so far £100bn on anti-CV19 measures.

    At some point there will be a decision that spending such sums on an ongoing basis is too much per lives saved.
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    HYUFD said:

    They are not being thrown under the bus, Sunak has said he will continue to fund furlough at at least 60% of pay past June, even though most businesses will likely have reopened by then.

    Most businesses using furlough *will not* have reopened by then.

    Most businesses should have reopened by then as they should be in a position to start from 1 June given sufficient notice by Boris on Sunday.

    Train operators should be required to provide a normal service. Tube and train drivers have no contact with passengers. If necessary arrangements can be put in place to protect National Rail conductors/staff eg encourage people to buy tickets online.
This discussion has been closed.