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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris is going to struggle dealing with the ever so polite but

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited May 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris is going to struggle dealing with the ever so polite but forensic Starmer

Labour leader Keir Starmer asks why coronavirus testing has fallen since 30 AprilBoris Johnson says "capacity currently exceeds demand, we’re working on that… the ambition clearly is to get up to 200,000 a day by the end of this month"#PMQs https://t.co/HBfSPbDpCp pic.twitter.com/1W5JYwSgLV

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  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    First!
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    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    I actually think Beaker of the muppets would be better dealing with Starmer's approach.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150
    However, Boris then announced an end to lockdown on Monday. So an against the run of play winner for Boris?
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    However, Boris then announced an end to lockdown on Monday. So an against the run of play winner for Boris?

    He did? I suppose that depends on your definitions of both "end" and "lockdown"
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I thought Boris responded well to Starmer. Both Starmer and Boris were on good form, with Starmer asking good questions and Boris having the answers to hand too.

    The country will be better for it. The country will be better for having a competent opposition - and long may Labour be a competent opposition for the good of the nation.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Surely almost any approach is going to be better than Having Brenda from Barnsley email on behalf of her union to ask when the Tories will stop killing babies?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited May 2020

    However, Boris then announced an end to lockdown on Monday. So an against the run of play winner for Boris?

    Did he ?

    I must have missed that one.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.
  • Options
    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,045
    'the ambition clearly is to get up to 200,000'

    So just to clarify, that's an ambition rather than a target?
    At least one lesson seems to be learned from JFK Hancock.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Sounds like double days might be allowed come Monday.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    Pulpstar said:

    However, Boris then announced an end to lockdown on Monday. So an against the run of play winner for Boris?

    Did he ?

    I must have missed that one.
    He said the next review will be on Sunday, not Thursday. He said that this was because of wanting more time to gather data.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    We need an absolute shit ton of capacity. We need for all NHS front line staff to be tested at least once a week, that's 700k alone, plus everyone who needs one from the contact tracing app. The capacity has to be there before we can jump start the economy by removing the majority of lockdown measures.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,603
    Simon Calder looking fit and well on ITV news.

    I don't think I'm on to a winner.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    We're miles away from an election, I'd take all polling with a pinch of salt right now.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020
    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    The government have explained that testing capacity will be needed in press conferences for track and trace. PMQs is a limited format to be able to 'further explain' in great detail and the 200k ambition was interesting and will no doubt capture the media's attention.
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010

    'the ambition clearly is to get up to 200,000'

    So just to clarify, that's an ambition rather than a target?
    At least one lesson seems to be learned from JFK Hancock.

    I presune it's to be ready for antibody testing
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,045

    Simon Calder looking fit and well on ITV news.

    I don't think I'm on to a winner.

    He's a vampire, he thrives on crisis related holiday shitshows.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150
    Pulpstar said:

    However, Boris then announced an end to lockdown on Monday. So an against the run of play winner for Boris?

    Did he ?

    I must have missed that one.
    Boom! Lockdown to be eased on Monday. Starmer's fox.well and truly shot.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    Far too early given the he news is totally dominated by the pandemic. Most people simply don't know who he is.

    Remember the reason why people flocked to the Tories at GE19 was to stop a Corbyn victory. Now he's out of the way the world has changed
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
    Can you please stop using worldometers, it uses officially declared statistics which aren't comparable. The FT analysis is probably the only true measure we have right now.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,965

    'the ambition clearly is to get up to 200,000'

    So just to clarify, that's an ambition rather than a target?
    At least one lesson seems to be learned from JFK Hancock.

    I presune it's to be ready for antibody testing
    Once we have antibody testing things get a lot easier as once you've confirmed someone has had the disease there is no need to test them again (beyond any fears that the antibodies disappear over time).

    The problem with testing at the moment is that it can only tell you if you currently have the disease in sufficient quantities that it is picked up, not if you once had it or have only just caught it.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Are we still operating on the principle that no-one watches PMQs (well, almost no floating voters, anyway), and the purpose is therefore to generate snippets and soundbites that will look good on social media later? Or did that idea die with Jeremy Wotzisname's career?
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Pulpstar said:

    However, Boris then announced an end to lockdown on Monday. So an against the run of play winner for Boris?

    Did he ?

    I must have missed that one.
    Boom! Lockdown to be eased on Monday. Starmer's fox.well and truly shot.
    Dream on.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
    You're not really foolish enough to believe Iran's death figures are you?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    The government have explained that testing capacity will be needed in press conferences for track and trace. PMQs is a limited format to be able to 'further explain' in great detail and the 200k ambition was interesting and will no doubt capture the media's attention.
    Starmer's question was what was so special about 1st May that allowed so many tests that day? The implicit question is was this a completely artificial contrivance so Hancock could claim that he had met his target. An answer focused on the need to increase capacity and 1st May being an important milestone in that process even if current capacity exceeds current demand would have been better.

    I did not watch PMQs but if the bit in the thread header is typical what we are going to get is more coherent and testing questions without any particularly obvious bite. I don't think Boris will be too worried.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,576
    Starmer could be invited into government for the duration of the crisis.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Simon Calder looking fit and well on ITV news.

    I don't think I'm on to a winner.

    He is again recommending travel because its cheap? Like he did in the early days of this pandemic?
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Starmer may appear to be courteous, but he seems to be evasive over the short window of opportunity for applications for Labour's General Secretary.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1257956992435597312

    As Leader of The Opposition, John Smith appeared to be forensic in his approach to PMQs, but he was a plodder in comparison to Tony Blair. It remains to be seen if Starmer is able enough to overcome the damage resulting from 4 + years of Corbyn's leadership.

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
    Only if you take everyone's figures at face value, which is clearly a big mistake to make at this stage. China, India, Iran are so clearly at least an order of magnitude wrong, and many of the European figures are somewhat suspect or compiled to different standards.

    The *only* useful data are going to be excess deaths against a baseline, but these are months away for a lot of countries, no matter how much commentators want them RIGHT NOW.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited May 2020

    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    Far too early given the he news is totally dominated by the pandemic. Most people simply don't know who he is.

    Remember the reason why people flocked to the Tories at GE19 was to stop a Corbyn victory. Now he's out of the way the world has changed
    Not just that otherwise May would have won a landslide victory in 2017 rather than lost her majority and needed the DUP to stay in power.

    It was getting Brexit done and a pro Boris vote that won the Tories marginal seats in the North and Midlands in 2019 and an overall majority
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994

    Simon Calder looking fit and well on ITV news.

    I don't think I'm on to a winner.

    Dead Pool is marathon not a sprint.
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    'the ambition clearly is to get up to 200,000'

    So just to clarify, that's an ambition rather than a target?
    At least one lesson seems to be learned from JFK Hancock.

    I presune it's to be ready for antibody testing
    With a stated date of "end May" to reach 200,000 tests a day according to Boris at PMQs today, I would describe this number as a clear objective, as opposed to an "ambition" or a "target". A hostage to fortune if ever I heard one!
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like double days might be allowed come Monday.

    genuine question - what is a double day?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    We need an absolute shit ton of capacity. We need for all NHS front line staff to be tested at least once a week, that's 700k alone, plus everyone who needs one from the contact tracing app. The capacity has to be there before we can jump start the economy by removing the majority of lockdown measures.
    How many frontline staff does the NHS have? Pretty sure its not 700k. Even if it was that would be 100k a day or the current capacity even if weekly checks were thought to be a good use of time in the absence of symptoms.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,916

    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    Far too early given the he news is totally dominated by the pandemic. Most people simply don't know who he is.

    Remember the reason why people flocked to the Tories at GE19 was to stop a Corbyn victory. Now he's out of the way the world has changed
    They flocked to the Tories? The Tory Share of the vote went from 42.4 to 43.6



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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    'the ambition clearly is to get up to 200,000'

    So just to clarify, that's an ambition rather than a target?
    At least one lesson seems to be learned from JFK Hancock.

    I presune it's to be ready for antibody testing
    With a stated date of "end May" to reach 200,000 tests a day according to Boris at PMQs today, I would describe this number as a clear objective, as opposed to an "ambition" or a "target". A hostage to fortune if ever I heard one!
    Didn't he use the word ambition when he was talking about it?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited May 2020
    Watching the Newsnight report on Germany and masks...Clear evidence in the footage why they don't work very well in public setting.

    Reporting walking around, gets to train station, fiddles about in pocket, produces mask, puts it on.

    Then they go outside a department store, person after person, walks up, fiddles about in their bag or pocket, produces mask puts it on (or has masks around their neck and pull it up), goes in...as soon as they come out, whips masks off (hand grabbing the textile) and puts in pockets.

    So if they have touched anything contaminated with coronavirus, they have just put it on their hands and within minutes they are going to be touching their eyes or mouth.

    Also, no goggles. All the medical experts have said if this does transmit via touching something contaminated and then touching your mouth, your eyes are exactly the same avenue for infection.

    Maybe I am just a freak, but I have proper safety goggles and mask.
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    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    Really? Starmer has good approval ratings and the most recent polls all have Labour up since immediately pre-leadership change.

    Would he win an election tomorrow? Is he polling at Blair 1995 levels? Definitely "no" and "no". But it's a marathon and he's set off at a reasonable pace and is looking fit.:
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    Really? Starmer has good approval ratings and the most recent polls all have Labour up since immediately pre-leadership change.

    Would he win an election tomorrow? Is he polling at Blair 1995 levels? Definitely "no" and "no". But it's a marathon and he's set off at a reasonable pace and is looking fit.:
    In an alternate history, there would be an election scheduled for tomorrow.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    FPT
    RobD said:

    eek said:



    I will repeat my statement - it's not there.

    Before posting it wasn't on Apple's appstore I went looking for and I cannot find it. Hint, I don't like making a fool of myself so I always double check that I'm not an idiot before posting something that confirms that the other person is.

    Now should I trust an journalist or my own eyes especially when I know exactly how publishing an App works and I see little evidence that you do.

    It's embedded in the NHS app, isn't it?
    The NHS app that was last updated a fortnight ago

    As Tess and Claudia would say at the end of Strictly - keep digging (that hole).
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,045
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    eek said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    eek said:



    I will repeat my statement - it's not there.

    Before posting it wasn't on Apple's appstore I went looking for and I cannot find it. Hint, I don't like making a fool of myself so I always double check that I'm not an idiot before posting something that confirms that the other person is.

    Now should I trust an journalist or my own eyes especially when I know exactly how publishing an App works and I see little evidence that you do.

    It's embedded in the NHS app, isn't it?
    The NHS app that was last updated a fortnight ago

    As Tess and Claudia would say at the end of Strictly - keep digging (that hole).
    That's my fault - I was under the impression it would be a part of that app rather than a standalone. That's why I thought it was on there because I could see it on there!
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    Hague used to defeat Blair regularly. Didn't make any difference.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    isam said:

    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    Far too early given the he news is totally dominated by the pandemic. Most people simply don't know who he is.

    Remember the reason why people flocked to the Tories at GE19 was to stop a Corbyn victory. Now he's out of the way the world has changed
    They flocked to the Tories? The Tory Share of the vote went from 42.4 to 43.6



    What happened to Labour's ? ;)
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    LOL! Very funny.

    Boris wasn't crushed at PMQs, far from it, and having just won a crushing election majority its funny to think Boris is going to go any time soon.

    I may have tipped Sunak but that's for the long term not this year or soon.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
    You're not really foolish enough to believe Iran's death figures are you?
    Or the UK's?
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    eekeek Posts: 24,965

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    There's a big difference between a leader of the opposition who isn't doing that well and is behind in the polls with the leader of the Government when the Government is 10%+ points ahead.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    I think that that is a good point.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like double days might be allowed come Monday.

    genuine question - what is a double day?
    Running twice in one day.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    You are assuming that the current under use is lack of demand.

    It may be that -

    - Capacity is in the wrong place.
    - Capacity is not being gatekept.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
    You're not really foolish enough to believe Iran's death figures are you?
    Or the UK's?
    Are they even comparable?
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341

    Maybe I am just a freak, but I have proper safety goggles and mask.

    You are President Trump AICMFP. Or at least, as I pointed out in the last thread's pointing and laughing at Live And Let Die playing while Trump shot saliva over new masks, he was wearing safety goggles.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    In the sense that Starmer is polling no better than IDS and Boris is polling as well as Blair was in late 2001 that could be a comparison but not I suspect in the way you intended
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like double days might be allowed come Monday.

    genuine question - what is a double day?
    Running twice in one day.
    You can exercise 50 times in one day should you choose to do so under the current legislation.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    edited May 2020
    Deleted.
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    To defuse the apples and pears comparisons as regards the differing bases on which death statistics are reported, surely it would be relatively simple for Boris to cite a number of say Western European countries who choose to include only hospital deaths, i.e. excluding those who die at home and/or in care homes which the UK's figures now include.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
    Those voters proud of Germany's role in WW2 likely comprise most of the AfD's support
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
    Those voters proud of Germany's role in WW2 likely comprise most of the AfD's support
    The AfD are vile but that 47% of Germans don't strongly disagree with that statement is more than the AfD.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,045

    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
    Part of AFD's schtick is that Germans should be more proud of their military history including WWII (that's the good, non war crime type of military history obvs), so that 7% is possibly encouraging. I'd guess a lot of the remaining 47% is youngish wtf has it got to with us people.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    tlg86 said:

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    Hague used to defeat Blair regularly. Didn't make any difference.
    Yes, that's a more pertinent comparison. Boris has the authority of office, so can never be IDS.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited May 2020
    So Boris has just set another arbitrary target (200k tests) for the media to take aim at. That is just bad politics, both presentationally and also seems limited evidence for this number.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269

    tlg86 said:

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    Hague used to defeat Blair regularly. Didn't make any difference.
    Yes, that's a more pertinent comparison. Boris has the authority of office, so can never be IDS.
    IDS never lost a General Election :lol:
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    You are assuming that the current under use is lack of demand.

    It may be that -

    - Capacity is in the wrong place.
    - Capacity is not being gatekept.
    I am not assuming that, it is what Boris said. It seems to me that if the correct priorities were being worked on, front line NHS staff, care workers, residential home residents, people with actual symptoms consistent with CV, then we would indeed be using more than 100k tests a day right now. But, for whatever reason, some of these categories are getting insufficient attention.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    So Boris has just set another arbitrary target (200k tests) for the media to take aim at. That is just bad politics, both presentationally and also seems limited evidence for this number.

    Seems like good politics to distract the media with a number in the future to obsess over that should be quite easy (with another month) to achieve.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
    The Clean Wehrmacht Myth.
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    kamskikamski Posts: 4,245

    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
    A lot of young people here have barely heard of ww2. You can easily live your life without anyone mentioning it for months or years.
    It's not like England where you can't avoid references to it all the bleeding time.

    Obsessed.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
    Those voters proud of Germany's role in WW2 likely comprise most of the AfD's support
    The AfD are vile but that 47% of Germans don't strongly disagree with that statement is more than the AfD.
    Only 7% of Germans are proud of their role in WW2, so 93% are not.

    I expect there are even a few Britains proud of the Amritsar Massacre and defeating the Easter Rising
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    edited May 2020
    Keir is getting levels of accolades from the centrists rivalling Rory, Chuka, Swinson and CUK. I expect him to attain the same levels of political success too.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    "Modesty Strawberries".
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    You are assuming that the current under use is lack of demand.

    It may be that -

    - Capacity is in the wrong place.
    - Capacity is not being gatekept.
    I am not assuming that, it is what Boris said. It seems to me that if the correct priorities were being worked on, front line NHS staff, care workers, residential home residents, people with actual symptoms consistent with CV, then we would indeed be using more than 100k tests a day right now. But, for whatever reason, some of these categories are getting insufficient attention.
    Calling on our resident medics - what is the process for getting a test now? Have they got rid of the 3 signatures (including one from God) thing?
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    isamisam Posts: 40,916

    isam said:

    Brom said:

    The header doesn't explain why Starmer hasn't yet had an impact on the polls or with the general public. Perhaps it is the errors Starmer made with Brexit or that he has a weak team behind him.

    Far too early given the he news is totally dominated by the pandemic. Most people simply don't know who he is.

    Remember the reason why people flocked to the Tories at GE19 was to stop a Corbyn victory. Now he's out of the way the world has changed
    They flocked to the Tories? The Tory Share of the vote went from 42.4 to 43.6



    What happened to Labour's ? ;)
    40 to 32. Roughly split 4 to the Lib Dem’s and 2 each to Tory and Brexit Party, but the Tories benefitted from Farage not standing in their seats, and taking votes from Labour in the Labour held marginals.
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    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    LOL! Very funny.

    Boris wasn't crushed at PMQs, far from it, and having just won a crushing election majority its funny to think Boris is going to go any time soon.

    I may have tipped Sunak but that's for the long term not this year or soon.
    Before there's any further talk of Sunak succeeding Boris as PM, it would surely make sense to see what sort of a job he makes of being Chancellor of the Exchequer ... he faces a task of gargantuan proportions to be sure. I, for one, very much doubt he will survive the seemingly impossible problems which lie ahead.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,423
    I have three daughters, 10, 8 and 5.
    To be honest, while the current situation is a pain in the arse, we're doing fine. Not least because the three of them have each other.

    However, I've just heard that a friend of my oldest daughter is currently undergoing something of a mental breakdown. She doesn't have sisters to pal up with, and the enforced isolation from playmates has got too much for her to bear.

    I understand the reasons for the lockdown. I may question what impact closing schools has on transmission of the virus, and indeed whether the virus can be successfully contained - but presumably those taking the decisions are sufficiently well informed to take probably the right ones. But the impacts - health, as well as economic - of the lockdown don't seem to be getting the attention they deserve.

    Meanwhile (while I'm in rant mode) the quality of input they are getting from their school is, well, inconsistent. Some teachers are really going the extra mile for their pupils. Others think that writing 'well done' once a week for each of their 30 children is enough. (The latter rarely raises his standard of teaching to adequate at the best of times.) I fear it's going to be very difficult to get some teachers back to work.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    I think that that is a good point.
    Except that IDS was and is as thick as mince, very slow on his feet and was trying to deal with Blair in his pomp. Boris is not stupid, quite good on his feet and Starmer is no Blair. Yes, he will get the better of Boris sometimes, yes Boris will bluster but the kind of embarrassment that IDS generated is a very long way off and unlikely to happen to either of these 2.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    So if capacity exceeds demand at 100k why are we aiming at 200k? Seems pointless other than to get ourselves up a completely meaningless chart of how many tests we have done compared to other countries.

    There may be a need for greater capacity when we go back to trace, isolate and test. If so, Boris should explain that and further explain that how many tests are done right now is actually rather meaningless.

    You are assuming that the current under use is lack of demand.

    It may be that -

    - Capacity is in the wrong place.
    - Capacity is not being gatekept.
    I am not assuming that, it is what Boris said. It seems to me that if the correct priorities were being worked on, front line NHS staff, care workers, residential home residents, people with actual symptoms consistent with CV, then we would indeed be using more than 100k tests a day right now. But, for whatever reason, some of these categories are getting insufficient attention.
    Calling on our resident medics - what is the process for getting a test now? Have they got rid of the 3 signatures (including one from God) thing?
    Anyone got experience of booking a test? are they always available?
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
    Can you please stop using worldometers, it uses officially declared statistics which aren't comparable. The FT analysis is probably the only true measure we have right now.
    I mean from their About Us page - it seems like these guys should be the experts:
    https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

    "The aim of the EuroMOMO project (European monitoring of excess mortality for public health action) is to operate coordinated timely mortality monitoring and analyses in as many European countries as possible, using a standardized approach to ensure that signals are comparable between countries."
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    DavidL said:

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    I think that that is a good point.
    Except that IDS was and is as thick as mince, very slow on his feet and was trying to deal with Blair in his pomp. Boris is not stupid, quite good on his feet and Starmer is no Blair. Yes, he will get the better of Boris sometimes, yes Boris will bluster but the kind of embarrassment that IDS generated is a very long way off and unlikely to happen to either of these 2.
    IDS even led Labour in a few polls by 2003, personality wise he was quite close to Starmer, dull as ditchwater but seen as decent.

    Boris is far more like Blair, a charismatic flashman.

    The question is whether Covid and hard Brexit turns out to be Boris' Iraq War?
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is more forensic than Corbyn certainly but has little charisma.

    In terms of the league table of Coronavirus deaths in Europe, Spain, Italy and Belgium all have more deaths per million than the UK

    We are 6th worst in the world after (in increasing death rate) Italy, Spain, Andorra, Belgium and San Marino.
    On official per capita statistics, we are 4th worst in the world counting countries worthy of the name. (I am excluding Andorra, San Marino and Genovia.)

    Of the three apparently above us:
    - One (Belgium) is clearly counting numerous deaths in the community which we would ignore based on suspected cause alone and when the comparison is made on currently available comparable figures - hospital deaths alone - it is behind us.
    - one (Italy) has a similar methodology based on deaths in all contexts confirmed by testing but has probably attributed more deaths than us to the virus simply because its cumulative testing rate is twice that of ours. It's daily death count is now also far behind ours so we are catching up.
    - one (Spain) appears not to be counting all the cases that we are so we are clearly further behind than the stats suggest, although again we are catching up.

    The only other country close to our levels (France) has also cast a wider net so we are further ahead of them than the official figures suggest.

    Conclusion: On a comparable basis we are currently probably third in the world, and likely to move into second place in the world within a month. And this despite us being well behind the timeline of other countries such that we had a much better opportunity to act effectively to contain the virus.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    7% of Germans are proud of their country's role in WWII is the more shocking statistic.

    And only 53% of German's strongly disagree with the statement they are proud of Germany's role in WWII.

    WTF is up with that?
    The Clean Wehrmacht Myth.
    The sarcastic in me wonders how many of the 7% were in the war, and whether they have the "bad" style of Iron Cross hidden under the mattress.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    PMQs -- is SKS vs Boris a rerun of Blair vs IDS?

    Remember that what did for IDS was not public perception -- the Conservative Party did rather well at elections under IDS -- it was the crushing of Tory backbench morale when every week their champion was carried out on his shield.

    That is the danger for Boris. Not that the public is entranced by Starmer but that Conservative MPs see the PM lose most weeks and start to flirt with the idea of Rishi Sunak in Number 10.

    I think that that is a good point.
    Except that IDS was and is as thick as mince, very slow on his feet and was trying to deal with Blair in his pomp. Boris is not stupid, quite good on his feet and Starmer is no Blair. Yes, he will get the better of Boris sometimes, yes Boris will bluster but the kind of embarrassment that IDS generated is a very long way off and unlikely to happen to either of these 2.
    IDS even led Labour in a few polls by 2003, personality wise he was quite close to Starmer, dull as ditchwater but seen as decent.

    Boris is far more like Blair, a charismatic flashman.

    The question is whether Covid and hard Brexit turns out to be Boris' Iraq War?
    If Boris is brought down it will be by the forthcoming economic tsunami, not PMQs. And if that is the cause his current Chancellor seems an unlikely replacement for all his talents.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Don't think I can cope with another month of the media going apeshit over a particular daily testing number.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    The poll before Blair took over Labour had a 28 point lead I think! He won the election by 12 points in end. Starmer is no Blair and faces a united Tory party with a whopping majority. Blair had decent talent in his ranks and a scandal hit government. It is a huge mountain to climb and will take more than the London media praising 'Mr Forensic' for him to win round the millions of Tory votes he needs for a majority.
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    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    edited May 2020
    I think a necessary but possibly not sufficient step for Keir Starmer to become PM is the vanquishing of the loony left from the LP not just in reality but also in a very public manner so that it registers with the electorate.
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    EndaEnda Posts: 17
    This article rings true on a personal level. My other half had horrific abdominal pains that went on for weeks. Thank goodness our young children didn't have to endure this too.

    The patients who just can't shake off Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52548843

    Felicity, 49, from London,
    "So it was actually in the fifth week of being ill that my partner had to call A&E because I was experiencing such horrific abdominal pains that I was just calling out in just extreme agony."
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    edited May 2020
    Johnson, I think, will learn to bluster his way through PMQs as he does with everything else and those that like him will cheer him for doing so. The change Starmer brings is in his pitch to the public. If you want competence you vote for me. Leaving aside whether he actually is competent (his is certainly disciplined unlike Johnson and Corbyn), there is a question mark over whether the British public actually wants competence. Brexit, the support for Johnson and Corbyn don't really indicate that.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Andrew said:

    Don't think I can cope with another month of the media going apeshit over a particular daily testing number.

    They are distracted easily, aren't they?
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,942
    RobD said:

    Andrew said:

    Don't think I can cope with another month of the media going apeshit over a particular daily testing number.

    They are distracted easily, aren't they?
    Honestly, it's just bizarre.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    NHS England numbers out - 331

    image

    7 day trend line still linear...
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    I'm not entirely convinced by this 'forensic' style. As we saw to an extent today, Boris is quite capable of ignoring the question, answering a completely different question, or simply blustering with half-truths. Moreover I'm not sure that Starmer is that good at it anyway; he comes over as nit-picking rather than addressing the big issues.

    It is telling that by far the best forensic, well-argued, persistent and persuasive inquisitorial performances by an opposition Labour front-bencher were those of Robin Cook before 1997, which left Blair to do the soundbite, big-picture stuff as the party leader. That was a truly effective combination.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    Good to see Keir handing Johnson his ass at PMQs but a word of caution for me and my ilk. The chamber is almost empty atm - no noisy gallery to play to - and this suits the quiet probing style of an ex top prosecutor. When normal business is finally resumed (Oct?) expect Johnson to transform into what he fundamentally is above all else, a master of knockabout comedy, the man we know not as Johnson, or even as the PM, but as "Boris". Different ballgame when that happens. Will Keir then become the hapless stooge? The Phil Spencer to Johnson's Kirstie Allsopp? I'm not saying he will, but the risk is there and it's a real one.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    @Malmesbury the decline is slllowwwww.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    It was good to see Starmer puncture the 'we can't make international comparisons' bs with the govt's own slide.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    Enda said:

    This article rings true on a personal level. My other half had horrific abdominal pains that went on for weeks. Thank goodness our young children didn't have to endure this too.

    The patients who just can't shake off Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52548843

    Felicity, 49, from London,
    "So it was actually in the fifth week of being ill that my partner had to call A&E because I was experiencing such horrific abdominal pains that I was just calling out in just extreme agony."

    This virus is a complete bastard and its unpredictability must be a major concern in terms of any vaccine or indeed treatment. It clearly causes a remarkable range of different effects in different bodies, depending upon how their immune system responds.
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