Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Biden’s VP pick: The case for Kamala Harris

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited May 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Biden’s VP pick: The case for Kamala Harris

The most lively political betting market at the moment is on who Joe Biden will choose to be his nominee for the vice presidential slot. The party convention is not due to take place until August vote but it is expected that he will make an announcement sometime before then.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,359
    E pluribus unum.
  • Options
    Kevin_McCandlessKevin_McCandless Posts: 392
    edited May 2020
    She's a centrist and she wasn't able to perform the Democratic trick of also appearing like a hero of the left in the primaries. Plus, actual African-American voters didn't really flock to her, so there's that,
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,258
    FPT

    I have recently been commenting on the failing health of my son in laws father (87) who has been prevented from going into care or hospital despite multiple health issues and falls. His wife is in dementia care and he has not seen her since February

    His falls became so serious, often several a day, that his doctor undertook a health review and managed to find a care home for him. He had a covid test and once clear was admitted into care last Wednesday

    Yesterday he fell in the care home pulling out his catheter and the paramedics decided to admit him from the care home into A & E. Eventually he was admitted onto a ward and his family were told the nurse in charge of him would phone his family today with an update

    The phone call this lunchtime by the nurse confirmed he was on the 'red ward' (covid) after coming through A & E. They said he was having another test for covid and the result should be to hand tomorrow, following which he will remain on red ward, or be placed on amber or green wards. She said that he was having problems with his bowels this morning and when they were not looking he got up and promptly fell across the ward

    Furthermore, they had no idea about the catheter or his early dementia as A & E had not sent on his notes. She said that the catheter will be inserted and that a nurse will be at his bedside as long as he was on the ward

    She did say that once he is well enough he will be scheduled to be sent back to care but only after another test

    When we all discuss these matters I do think we tend to be rather superficial and partisan and I am sure few of us realise the practical difficulties between care and hospitals or hospital and care homes

    It is complex, and very worrying for families because they cannot see or communicate with their loved ones
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,008
    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    The reason I will not be supporting Harris and Realy Realy hope she is not the VP

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-SaRDG6V-s&t=216s
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322
    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Chris said:

    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    So you dismiss the Swedish government clams that 26% of people in Stockholm have had the virus at some point?

    Isn't the point rather you need infection rates of around 80% to achieve herd immunity?

    Infection rate of 26% will not achieve herd immunity, in fact you'll end up with the worst of all worlds?
    I disagree,

    the higher the level of infection the lower the rate of transition, yes 80%+ would be required if there was no change in people behaviour at all, but 26% (or whatever Stockholm has, does appear to be sufficient to bring Stockholm to a R number of less than 1, given the behaviour in Stockholm at them moment.

    As more people start to go to bars and so on the transition rate will increase, but that will be balanced to some extent by the increasing immunity, there is no guarantee that theses will exactly balance, but I would suggest, less risk of a spike, than suddenly changing the rules in a contrary that has been on lock down.

    As to worst of both woulds, no I think the opposite, the death rate is relay a proportion of the very old and ill who have got it, and not real replanted to the general transition in population.

    Therefor is the old and ill do there best to stay safe, while the rest of the population gradually take more risks and get infected gradually then Sweden can/will:

    1) Get to heard immunity and be safe from a new wave of infections.
    2) Have a lower overall death rate then other nations.
    3) Not have trashed there economy to any where like the extent it has elsewhere.

    Time will tell, but I think they have the right approach.
    BigRich said:

    Chris said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Swedish egghead - ours is a workable long term strategy. Lockdown isn't feasible. Working vaccine for so far in the future, need a sustainable strategy to be maintained over the course of years.

    IF they are right, I really fear for our media class. They will have a mental breakdown in trying to come to terms with the horrible reality of the situation.
    If they are right it would unfortunately still not have been a course we could have followed. They have had death rates probably 5 times of what they would have had with lockdown and there is no way that the Government would have survived 150,000+ deaths. We would simply have ended up in lockdown much later but with many more dead.

    I really really hope the Swedes are right that this was the best way for their country. But it needs a small population and the willingness to have significant 'necessary' deaths to make it work as an experiment.
    I would have taken those terms.
    In that case you are genuinely insane.

    I repeat: the point of the Swedish approach is to avoid further waves of the virus. All other countries are likely to have further peaks whereas Sweden is not thanks to herd immunity.
    How does 20% give herd immunity, all the experts said 80% so it appears they are avoiding nothing.
    More to the point, why should Sweden have more immunity than the UK, when the UK has had more deaths as a percentage of population (on the official figures)?
    The UK has had so many deaths, because of the mind blowingly stupid policy of moving old people of of hospitals and in to care homes, bringing the virus with them.
    That makes no sense at all. Even before the UK numbers included deaths outside hospitals, there were 40% more deaths per head of population in the UK than in Sweden.

    I don't believe for a moment that a larger percentage of the Swedish population than of the British has been infected.
    Why? serisoe question, don't you believe that?

    The diferance in age vanrabilaty in this virus is shocking,

    looking at the numbers who have dies in the different age cohorts, then the virus is between 1,000 to 10,000 more leathal to an over 80 as to an under 40.

    To me this is like being toled that the enemy tanks have 1 meter think armer at the front and only 1 mm think armer at the sides, and not saying 'lets try to get around the sides and shoot there'.

    my parents are late 70s and late 80s they are sensibly staying at home, but every day this goes on is a day they could fall over and brake an arm and need to go in to hospital, which at the moment would be very risky for them. meanwhile I am stuck at home, with my wife. and based on our good health, would have a perhaps 1 in 100,000 change of dying if we got it. Let me take the risk so my parents don't have to.

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322

    FPT

    I have recently been commenting on the failing health of my son in laws father (87) who has been prevented from going into care or hospital despite multiple health issues and falls. His wife is in dementia care and he has not seen her since February

    His falls became so serious, often several a day, that his doctor undertook a health review and managed to find a care home for him. He had a covid test and once clear was admitted into care last Wednesday

    Yesterday he fell in the care home pulling out his catheter and the paramedics decided to admit him from the care home into A & E. Eventually he was admitted onto a ward and his family were told the nurse in charge of him would phone his family today with an update

    The phone call this lunchtime by the nurse confirmed he was on the 'red ward' (covid) after coming through A & E. They said he was having another test for covid and the result should be to hand tomorrow, following which he will remain on red ward, or be placed on amber or green wards. She said that he was having problems with his bowels this morning and when they were not looking he got up and promptly fell across the ward

    Furthermore, they had no idea about the catheter or his early dementia as A & E had not sent on his notes. She said that the catheter will be inserted and that a nurse will be at his bedside as long as he was on the ward

    She did say that once he is well enough he will be scheduled to be sent back to care but only after another test

    When we all discuss these matters I do think we tend to be rather superficial and partisan and I am sure few of us realise the practical difficulties between care and hospitals or hospital and care homes

    It is complex, and very worrying for families because they cannot see or communicate with their loved ones

    Sadly, one of the biggest failures in modern healthcare is the lack of joined-up systems.

    In visits to hospital, for my children and others, I have found that a shift change often creates a massive data gap. This is isn't the fault of the staff - the system is fundementally broken.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Fellow members of the cabinet.

    /joke
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,143
    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Only if we can get a delivery slot from Waitrose.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,849

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Excellent @Malmesbury, thanks for link in last thread, very informative. My only question now is that if we now supposedly have an R factor well below 1 , why would we not have herd immunity, surely 5% must have caught it by now.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,849
    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,008
    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,008
    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Fellow members of the cabinet.

    /joke
    /jokewithelementoftruthinit
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322
    edited May 2020
    On topic -

    Kathleen Harris has a problematic history as a prosecutor -

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/kamala-harris-criminal-justice.html?searchResultPosition=1

    Basically, she built a reputation as a hard charging prosecutor. Lookup Teresa Sheehan for an example that is a bit... hmmm..... enthusiastic....

    This may be a major turn off for the African-American community.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    He doesn't come off as the kind of person that would wish death on someone else.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Thanks for Producing that Malmesbury relay useful.

    One thing it does not catch, is that not everybody is equal in this. a buss driver that like to go to night clubs is much more likely to catch the virus and pass it on that say a computer programmer who works form home whos only hobby is playing computer games. to take 2 extreme examples.

    As the people who are most likely to get early are also the people who are most likely to pass it on to lots of people, this is very hard if not impossible to modal, but will mean that the effective community immunity will always be higher than the actual community immunity, but an indeterminate amount.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,359
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    He doesn't come off as the kind of person that would wish death on someone else.
    Well Stuart Collier might disagree with that.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,008
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    He doesn't come off as the kind of person that would wish death on someone else.
    Who said he did?

    Otoh I'm pretty sure this isn't a million miles off the mark.

    https://youtu.be/ZAxA-9D4X3o
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    malcolmg said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Excellent @Malmesbury, thanks for link in last thread, very informative. My only question now is that if we now supposedly have an R factor well below 1 , why would we not have herd immunity, surely 5% must have caught it by now.
    It is possible that London is part of the way there. It's one of the possible explanations being offered as to why it is that hospitalisations in London have declined, and are continuing to decline, more rapidly than in the rest of the country.

    They got whacked hard at the outset but may now be experiencing a pay-off.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322
    malcolmg said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Excellent @Malmesbury, thanks for link in last thread, very informative. My only question now is that if we now supposedly have an R factor well below 1 , why would we not have herd immunity, surely 5% must have caught it by now.
    With an R below 1 - which we have probably achieved, the disease is dying out by itself. The number already immune is not especially a factor - though every bit helps.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    He doesn't come off as the kind of person that would wish death on someone else.
    Who said he did?

    Otoh I'm pretty sure this isn't a million miles off the mark.

    https://youtu.be/ZAxA-9D4X3o
    I thought you were complaining about Nadine's comment which was suggesting exactly this.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    On topic -

    Kathleen Harris has a problematic history as a prosecutor -

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/kamala-harris-criminal-justice.html?searchResultPosition=1

    Basically, she built a reputation as a hard charging prosecutor. Lookup Teresa Sheehan for an example that is a bit... hmmm..... enthusiastic....

    This may be a major turn off for the African-American community.

    I can't speek for others, but if She was the VP then it will be a struggle to bring over many libertarian minded Swing voters, there may not be enough to worry about. but it might be enough to push some of the 3.3% who voted Gary Johnson last time to hold there nose and back Trump this time just to stop Harris.

    And yes I know elections don't swing around appealing to Libertarians, this election will be no different, but I feel so strongly about her and her abuse of power, that I feel complied to bring it up when Harris is talked about.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    If you want a challenge try a game as Scotland in Europa Universalis IV. :D
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    Every win's a win!

    Did you get to build lots of golf courses?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
    Have you both missed your invitations to the last few gatherings? Hmm... must speak to the invite committee.

    On second thoughts I will just put them On The List.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    1 - 1/R_t; R > 1

    Interesting. If R is less than 1 then you have herd immunity instantly, but it's not a "true" herd immunity till you've reached the natural R_0 of the virus.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322
    BigRich said:

    On topic -

    Kathleen Harris has a problematic history as a prosecutor -

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/kamala-harris-criminal-justice.html?searchResultPosition=1

    Basically, she built a reputation as a hard charging prosecutor. Lookup Teresa Sheehan for an example that is a bit... hmmm..... enthusiastic....

    This may be a major turn off for the African-American community.

    I can't speek for others, but if She was the VP then it will be a struggle to bring over many libertarian minded Swing voters, there may not be enough to worry about. but it might be enough to push some of the 3.3% who voted Gary Johnson last time to hold there nose and back Trump this time just to stop Harris.

    And yes I know elections don't swing around appealing to Libertarians, this election will be no different, but I feel so strongly about her and her abuse of power, that I feel complied to bring it up when Harris is talked about.
    The problem is that she might cause African American voters to stay home, the way they did for Hillary.

    Biden is seen/remembered as the faithful VP to Obama in the AA community.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    The funny bit (to me) is that I'm quite sure the lady in question would be appalled by the idea that squaddies in Afghanistan thought putting pictures of Corbyn on targets.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    I don't think Biden will make it.

    If he does though he needs an almost perfect VP choice. Someone who won't overshadow him - tricky, very tricky, and someone that isn't a white male - which is actually very easy.

    The VP choice is basically the Presidential candidate anyway.

    Meanwhile. Pence!?

  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    We're misusing the term "herd immunity" that is intended for vaccination programme while a disease is totally or almost totally absent at the point when you vaccinate. If the disease has an infection rate R of 3 and two thirds of the population is vaccinated, ie genuinely immune, any sporadic outbreak of the disease will die out of its own accord.

    If we misuse "herd immunity" in the situation where an epidemic is raging and we are dependent on social distancing to keep R down it won't behave like this at all. Firstly "herd immunity" actually indicates the peak of infections, not when the disease dies out. Secondly absent genuine immunity, any suppression of R won't reduce deaths overall unless those isolating consistently have no interaction with anyone else. It just means they die more slowly.

    In short, "herd immunity" isn't a policy for managing an epidemic.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,480

    malcolmg said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Excellent @Malmesbury, thanks for link in last thread, very informative. My only question now is that if we now supposedly have an R factor well below 1 , why would we not have herd immunity, surely 5% must have caught it by now.
    With an R below 1 - which we have probably achieved, the disease is dying out by itself. The number already immune is not especially a factor - though every bit helps.
    In some places; in others it’s probably still somewhere around 1 - and if it stays near that, it can take an awful long time to ‘die out’.
    Our problem is that we’ve started the lockdown process with a very high base level of infection. R really needs to be crushed to make keeping things under control post lockdown feasible.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,480
    I think we might expect another Trump explosion shortly...

    https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/1259115356972560385
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339
    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    She is obviously not right minded or if she has her marbles she is an evil woman.
    .
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,258
    Nigelb said:

    I think we might expect another Trump explosion shortly...

    https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/1259115356972560385

    He is right though
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322
    FF43 said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    We're misusing the term "herd immunity" that is intended for vaccination programme while a disease is totally or almost totally absent at the point when you vaccinate. If the disease has an infection rate R of 3 and two thirds of the population is vaccinated, ie genuinely immune, any sporadic outbreak of the disease will die out of its own accord.

    If we misuse "herd immunity" in the situation where an epidemic is raging and we are dependent on social distancing to keep R down it won't behave like this at all. Firstly "herd immunity" actually indicates the peak of infections, not when the disease dies out. Secondly absent genuine immunity, any suppression of R won't reduce deaths overall unless those isolating consistently have no interaction with anyone else. It just means they die more slowly.

    In short, "herd immunity" isn't a policy for managing an epidemic.
    True - what the Swedes are trying to do (as I understand it) is to reduce R by social distancing measures short of lockdown.

    At the same time they are hoping that an increase in the number immune will "come and meet them", as it were.

    So they are trying to achieve a situation where the disease dies down to a background level.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,849

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
    Have you both missed your invitations to the last few gatherings? Hmm... must speak to the invite committee.

    On second thoughts I will just put them On The List.
    Some day I will get an invite to the baby roasting BBQ's.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,008
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    He doesn't come off as the kind of person that would wish death on someone else.
    Who said he did?

    Otoh I'm pretty sure this isn't a million miles off the mark.

    https://youtu.be/ZAxA-9D4X3o
    I thought you were complaining about Nadine's comment which was suggesting exactly this.
    Nadine said BJ was a nasty piece of work? Don't think so.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    Just try not to win as Joanna Cherry. That'd scare me.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    Every win's a win!

    Did you get to build lots of golf courses?
    A fair few!

    The Highlanders weren't that great.

    Went for a nice science victory in the end.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,322
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
    Have you both missed your invitations to the last few gatherings? Hmm... must speak to the invite committee.

    On second thoughts I will just put them On The List.
    Some day I will get an invite to the baby roasting BBQ's.
    Stand on on empty hillside. Whisper - "I am a Tory".

    We Will Find You.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    Every win's a win!

    Did you get to build lots of golf courses?
    A fair few!

    The Highlanders weren't that great.

    Went for a nice science victory in the end.
    Civ 6 is such a great game
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    RobD said:

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    If you want a challenge try a game as Scotland in Europa Universalis IV. :D
    Not sure I've heard of that game!

    Any good?
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
    Have you both missed your invitations to the last few gatherings? Hmm... must speak to the invite committee.

    On second thoughts I will just put them On The List.
    Some day I will get an invite to the baby roasting BBQ's.
    What is barbecued turnip like?
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    RobD said:

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    If you want a challenge try a game as Scotland in Europa Universalis IV. :D
    Not sure I've heard of that game!

    Any good?
    A very different game - but yes - the older versions are cheaper and pretty good too
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,480

    Nigelb said:

    I think we might expect another Trump explosion shortly...

    https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/1259115356972560385

    He is right though
    Was ‘though’ really necessary ?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,849

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
    Have you both missed your invitations to the last few gatherings? Hmm... must speak to the invite committee.

    On second thoughts I will just put them On The List.
    Some day I will get an invite to the baby roasting BBQ's.
    Stand on on empty hillside. Whisper - "I am a Tory".

    We Will Find You.
    :D
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,480
    FF43 said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    We're misusing the term "herd immunity" that is intended for vaccination programme while a disease is totally or almost totally absent at the point when you vaccinate. If the disease has an infection rate R of 3 and two thirds of the population is vaccinated, ie genuinely immune, any sporadic outbreak of the disease will die out of its own accord.

    If we misuse "herd immunity" in the situation where an epidemic is raging and we are dependent on social distancing to keep R down it won't behave like this at all. Firstly "herd immunity" actually indicates the peak of infections, not when the disease dies out. Secondly absent genuine immunity, any suppression of R won't reduce deaths overall unless those isolating consistently have no interaction with anyone else. It just means they die more slowly.

    In short, "herd immunity" isn't a policy for managing an epidemic.
    For a week or so it absolutely was...
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    She's a centrist and she wasn't able to perform the Democratic trick of also appearing like a hero of the left in the primaries. Plus, actual African-American voters didn't really flock to her, so there's that,

    She is an effective cross examiner (as you'd expect, given her background). She is clearly sharp.

    However, she brings nothing positive (really) to the ticket. She *might* help the Democrats a little bit in North Carolina. But that's really a might. She also reinforces - to the Sanders-ites - that their wing of the party has been ignored.

    That being said, if the maxim is "first do no harm", then Harris is not a bad pick. Picking someone from the Left of the party works if the Presidential nominee is of sound mind and body. Choosing someone from the Left when it's Joe Biden is a dangerous gambit that could backfire.

    I like Kamala. I think she'd be a good VP and a good President. I think she has a toughness that Obama lacked. But I don't know if she's a good bet here. I suspect that she's not.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Excellent @Malmesbury, thanks for link in last thread, very informative. My only question now is that if we now supposedly have an R factor well below 1 , why would we not have herd immunity, surely 5% must have caught it by now.
    With an R below 1 - which we have probably achieved, the disease is dying out by itself. The number already immune is not especially a factor - though every bit helps.
    In some places; in others it’s probably still somewhere around 1 - and if it stays near that, it can take an awful long time to ‘die out’.
    Our problem is that we’ve started the lockdown process with a very high base level of infection. R really needs to be crushed to make keeping things under control post lockdown feasible.
    The hospitalisation numbers suggest to me that R in England is some way below 1.0, otherwise how come the number of Covid patients has managed to decline by 17% in a week?

    The situation in the rest of the country looks a little more awkward. Scotland is trending consistently downwards but only very gradually, which is consistent with Nicola Sturgeon's concerns that their R number may be closer to 1.0. Wales and Northern Ireland are a bit more erratic and have an apparent peak in late rather than early April, so goodness knows what's going on there.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,480
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,480

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Excellent @Malmesbury, thanks for link in last thread, very informative. My only question now is that if we now supposedly have an R factor well below 1 , why would we not have herd immunity, surely 5% must have caught it by now.
    With an R below 1 - which we have probably achieved, the disease is dying out by itself. The number already immune is not especially a factor - though every bit helps.
    In some places; in others it’s probably still somewhere around 1 - and if it stays near that, it can take an awful long time to ‘die out’.
    Our problem is that we’ve started the lockdown process with a very high base level of infection. R really needs to be crushed to make keeping things under control post lockdown feasible.
    The hospitalisation numbers suggest to me that R in England is some way below 1.0, otherwise how come the number of Covid patients has managed to decline by 17% in a week?

    The situation in the rest of the country looks a little more awkward. Scotland is trending consistently downwards but only very gradually, which is consistent with Nicola Sturgeon's concerns that their R number may be closer to 1.0. Wales and Northern Ireland are a bit more erratic and have an apparent peak in late rather than early April, so goodness knows what's going on there.
    You looking at the overall figures, though. Is that true across England (the NE, for example) ?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,849
    edited May 2020
    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
    Have you both missed your invitations to the last few gatherings? Hmm... must speak to the invite committee.

    On second thoughts I will just put them On The List.
    Some day I will get an invite to the baby roasting BBQ's.
    What is barbecued turnip like?
    Hmm, not one I have tried , usually I would have it with either haggis or mince and tatties. Nice as a mix with mash tatties as well.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,315

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    He doesn't come off as the kind of person that would wish death on someone else.
    Who said he did?

    Otoh I'm pretty sure this isn't a million miles off the mark.

    https://youtu.be/ZAxA-9D4X3o
    I thought you were complaining about Nadine's comment which was suggesting exactly this.
    Nadine said BJ was a nasty piece of work? Don't think so.
    After watching 15 minutes of Boris in that Youtube clip, I'm not really sure what we are supposed to make of it. There did not seem to be anything new there. On the other hand, Miriam Margolyes saying she ‘had difficulty not wanting Boris Johnson to die’ (from the tweet in this thread; I've not seen the programme) seems a damn sight more nuanced than her critics suggest.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709
    edited May 2020

    FF43 said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    We're misusing the term "herd immunity" that is intended for vaccination programme while a disease is totally or almost totally absent at the point when you vaccinate. If the disease has an infection rate R of 3 and two thirds of the population is vaccinated, ie genuinely immune, any sporadic outbreak of the disease will die out of its own accord.

    If we misuse "herd immunity" in the situation where an epidemic is raging and we are dependent on social distancing to keep R down it won't behave like this at all. Firstly "herd immunity" actually indicates the peak of infections, not when the disease dies out. Secondly absent genuine immunity, any suppression of R won't reduce deaths overall unless those isolating consistently have no interaction with anyone else. It just means they die more slowly.

    In short, "herd immunity" isn't a policy for managing an epidemic.
    True - what the Swedes are trying to do (as I understand it) is to reduce R by social distancing measures short of lockdown.

    At the same time they are hoping that an increase in the number immune will "come and meet them", as it were.

    So they are trying to achieve a situation where the disease dies down to a background level.
    "what the Swedes are trying to do (as I understand it) is to reduce R by social distancing measures". Yes. So is everyone. Most other countries (not the UK unfortunately) with rather more success so far than Sweden.

    "At the same time they are hoping that an increase in the number immune will "come and meet them", as it were." We're back to the idea of herd immunity without the actual immunity. Natural immunity for CV19 (ie when the epidemic finally dies out) is about 85% to 90% I believe. The difference from everyone being infected is minimal,
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,480
    rcs1000 said:

    She's a centrist and she wasn't able to perform the Democratic trick of also appearing like a hero of the left in the primaries. Plus, actual African-American voters didn't really flock to her, so there's that,

    She is an effective cross examiner (as you'd expect, given her background). She is clearly sharp.

    However, she brings nothing positive (really) to the ticket. She *might* help the Democrats a little bit in North Carolina. But that's really a might. She also reinforces - to the Sanders-ites - that their wing of the party has been ignored.

    That being said, if the maxim is "first do no harm", then Harris is not a bad pick. Picking someone from the Left of the party works if the Presidential nominee is of sound mind and body. Choosing someone from the Left when it's Joe Biden is a dangerous gambit that could backfire.

    I like Kamala. I think she'd be a good VP and a good President. I think she has a toughness that Obama lacked. But I don't know if she's a good bet here. I suspect that she's not.
    I think she’s a decent bet, and the current odds aren’t ridiculous.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,849

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    I'm sorry to break it to you but such people exist; while I wouldn't wish death upon BJ, I devoutly believe that the world would be a better place if a fat coated artery were to give way in the brain of a certain tangerine nightmare.

    The point was that the idea of BJ as some saintly turner of the other cheek is effing hilarious.
    He doesn't come off as the kind of person that would wish death on someone else.
    Who said he did?

    Otoh I'm pretty sure this isn't a million miles off the mark.

    https://youtu.be/ZAxA-9D4X3o
    I thought you were complaining about Nadine's comment which was suggesting exactly this.
    Nadine said BJ was a nasty piece of work? Don't think so.
    After watching 15 minutes of Boris in that Youtube clip, I'm not really sure what we are supposed to make of it. There did not seem to be anything new there. On the other hand, Miriam Margolyes saying she ‘had difficulty not wanting Boris Johnson to die’ (from the tweet in this thread; I've not seen the programme) seems a damn sight more nuanced than her critics suggest.
    Are the Tory natives getting restless re Boris, is he too human for them after his epiphany
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    Excellent @Malmesbury, thanks for link in last thread, very informative. My only question now is that if we now supposedly have an R factor well below 1 , why would we not have herd immunity, surely 5% must have caught it by now.
    With an R below 1 - which we have probably achieved, the disease is dying out by itself. The number already immune is not especially a factor - though every bit helps.
    In some places; in others it’s probably still somewhere around 1 - and if it stays near that, it can take an awful long time to ‘die out’.
    Our problem is that we’ve started the lockdown process with a very high base level of infection. R really needs to be crushed to make keeping things under control post lockdown feasible.
    The hospitalisation numbers suggest to me that R in England is some way below 1.0, otherwise how come the number of Covid patients has managed to decline by 17% in a week?

    The situation in the rest of the country looks a little more awkward. Scotland is trending consistently downwards but only very gradually, which is consistent with Nicola Sturgeon's concerns that their R number may be closer to 1.0. Wales and Northern Ireland are a bit more erratic and have an apparent peak in late rather than early April, so goodness knows what's going on there.
    You looking at the overall figures, though. Is that true across England (the NE, for example) ?
    I'm simply reading straight off the hospitalisation graph that is presented every day at the Government briefing. Scotland and all of the English regions have been trending steadily downwards for the last three or four weeks. The decline in London is the most rapid and that in Scotland is the most sluggish, but the direction of travel, with the occasional small hiccup, has been maintained.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,849
    Pulpstar said:

    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.

    Given most of them live in middle of nowhere with a few cities it is a lot easier than UK for sure. Build a wall around London and we are OK.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,150
    Nigelb said:
    The pivot to "personal responsibility" is the key one, something most conservative voters will be comfortable with, allows them to feel that they themselves will be safe because they are responsible, blames the victim.

    There's no particular reason why it won't work.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    edited May 2020
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.

    Given most of them live in middle of nowhere with a few cities it is a lot easier than UK for sure. Build a wall around London and we are OK.
    I think the biggest problem in London on a bank holiday is people regard the parks as 'their garden' because loads don't have one.
    One for town planners perhaps.
    Then again Madrid never seemed to have this problem..
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,315
    On topic, Kamala Harris could easily be Biden's choice. So could others, and often the VP choice is not someone obviously calculated to help the main candidate. I'm keeping Harris onside. If she is chosen, I shan't lose but cannot wade in because it is also a bet on Biden and even three months away from the DNC, in the middle of this pandemic, it seems a bit of a risk. In other words, Harris is the right favourite but she is not at a bet-compelling price this far out.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.

    Given most of them live in middle of nowhere with a few cities it is a lot easier than UK for sure. Build a wall around London and we are OK.
    You would have to do a lot more wall building than that:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1258032323343376384
  • Options
    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    There is no one else. Klobuchar is nowhere near the required standard to be vice President, Warren would be an active hindrance to key voters and Michelle Obama would be last roll of the dice in a desperate situation option.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,535
    Pulpstar said:

    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.

    In what ways is the UK population "not sensible" compared to Sweden?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    Thanks for the header Mike. Good to be focusing on the POTUS election, which is so important this year.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    If you want a challenge try a game as Scotland in Europa Universalis IV. :D
    Not sure I've heard of that game!

    Any good?
    Yeah, it's great! Much more depth than Civ in my opinion. The only downside is there is a ton of DLC. Not sure if there's a demo available.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    From the last thread. It was interesting (and surprising) to see that people did not know things I thought they did.

    I thought it was clear that what they are trying for in Sweden is to reduce R, so that a Herd Immunity kicks in at a much lower overall infection rate.

    So I created the following - the first column is the minimum % for Herd Immunity at the R number given in the second column. Done with the 1-1/R0 formula....

    Percentage
    Immune R
    4.76% 1.05
    9.09% 1.10
    13.04% 1.15
    16.67% 1.20
    20.00% 1.25
    23.08% 1.30
    25.93% 1.35
    28.57% 1.40
    31.03% 1.45
    33.33% 1.50
    37.50% 1.60
    41.18% 1.70
    44.44% 1.80
    47.37% 1.90
    50.00% 2.00
    52.38% 2.10
    54.55% 2.20
    56.52% 2.30
    58.33% 2.40
    60.00% 2.50
    61.54% 2.60
    62.96% 2.70
    64.29% 2.80
    65.52% 2.90
    66.67% 3.00

    We're misusing the term "herd immunity" that is intended for vaccination programme while a disease is totally or almost totally absent at the point when you vaccinate. If the disease has an infection rate R of 3 and two thirds of the population is vaccinated, ie genuinely immune, any sporadic outbreak of the disease will die out of its own accord.

    If we misuse "herd immunity" in the situation where an epidemic is raging and we are dependent on social distancing to keep R down it won't behave like this at all. Firstly "herd immunity" actually indicates the peak of infections, not when the disease dies out. Secondly absent genuine immunity, any suppression of R won't reduce deaths overall unless those isolating consistently have no interaction with anyone else. It just means they die more slowly.

    In short, "herd immunity" isn't a policy for managing an epidemic.
    True - what the Swedes are trying to do (as I understand it) is to reduce R by social distancing measures short of lockdown.

    At the same time they are hoping that an increase in the number immune will "come and meet them", as it were.

    So they are trying to achieve a situation where the disease dies down to a background level.
    "what the Swedes are trying to do (as I understand it) is to reduce R by social distancing measures". Yes. So is everyone. Most other countries (not the UK unfortunately) with rather more success so far than Sweden.

    "At the same time they are hoping that an increase in the number immune will "come and meet them", as it were." We're back to the idea of herd immunity without the actual immunity. Natural immunity for CV19 (ie when the epidemic finally dies out) is about 85% to 90% I believe. The difference from everyone being infected is minimal,
    What I'm trying to say. Forget about "herd immunity". This isn't useful and it doesn't distinguish what Sweden is doing from anyone else. Sweden is trying to impose social distancing without going through lockdown. It has a limited success in doing so, but with a deathrate that is significantly higher than comparable countries. There may a compensation of a smaller economic damage. This isn't a given while the higher death count is.

    Sensible countries will steer clear of the Swedish example.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,535
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    We're now at the Corbynite "I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone personally' stage.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1259120018501046273?s=20

    What kind of right-minded person wants someone to die?
    Someone who hopes we can all be a bit kinder and a bit nicer to each other, of course.
    Suppose she views Tories as subhuman scum not worthy of kindness.

    BTW, I assume preparations for the feast of the firstborns are still underway, despite the pandemic?
    Rob, Doesn't everyone?
    Have you both missed your invitations to the last few gatherings? Hmm... must speak to the invite committee.

    On second thoughts I will just put them On The List.
    Some day I will get an invite to the baby roasting BBQ's.
    Stand on on empty hillside. Whisper - "I am a Tory".

    We Will Find You.
    :D
    One of us. One of us.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    The hypothesis that outdoor COVID transmission is very low risk is being tested to destruction this weekend.

    My local nature reserve was apparently absolutely rammed this afternoon. At least two close neighbours have had friends around chatting and drinking all afternoon in their garden.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    For future pandemic planners: you need to model what a very dry, warm spell does to the stay at home messaging.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    The 1959 election has just begun on BBC Parliament.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    1959. Looks like every bloke is in a suit.

    How times change.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    The 1959 election has just begun on BBC Parliament.

    No spoilers.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    If you want a challenge try a game as Scotland in Europa Universalis IV. :D
    Not sure I've heard of that game!

    Any good?
    Yeah, it's great! Much more depth than Civ in my opinion. The only downside is there is a ton of DLC. Not sure if there's a demo available.
    It gets very slow in late game too as the PC processes all the turns of the AI players, the units and the complexity.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.

    Given most of them live in middle of nowhere with a few cities it is a lot easier than UK for sure. Build a wall around London and we are OK.
    I think the biggest problem in London on a bank holiday is people regard the parks as 'their garden' because loads don't have one.
    One for town planners perhaps.
    Then again Madrid never seemed to have this problem..
    Madrid have jackboot quasi-paramilitary police officers.

    Very glad we don't have that here.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    How white ethnic Britain was in 1959, at least at every count shown and also the studio shots.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I'm about to win a game on Civ VI playing as Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    If you want a challenge try a game as Scotland in Europa Universalis IV. :D
    Not sure I've heard of that game!

    Any good?
    Yeah, it's great! Much more depth than Civ in my opinion. The only downside is there is a ton of DLC. Not sure if there's a demo available.
    It gets very slow in late game too as the PC processes all the turns of the AI players, the units and the complexity.
    Similar in EU4... unless you remove all the other countries of course ;)
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    Pulpstar said:

    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.

    I'm not sure about this.

    Many were crowing about how we're different to the Catholic southern European nations a couple of months back, and the undisciplined and disorganised Italians in particular. I did a bit of it myself.

    Turned out to be bollocks, didn't it?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    Andy_JS said:
    The rope is being used for distancing.

    Provided it wasn't touched by anyone else before that wasn't wearing protective gloves (and I'm sure it wasn't - people would have needed the confidence to do this) and they just did it once and they ditched it, I'm sure it's fine.

    And it was being filmed too. No-one wants to get caught on TV breaking the law even if they want to off screen.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,359
    Is KFC food really good enough to queue for?

    At least fifty cars formed a huge queue outside a Greater Manchester KFC over the Bank Holiday weekend

    Mancunians have been making the most of the fast food branch re-opening.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/kfc-long-queues-levenshulme-drivers-18226721
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    She's a centrist and she wasn't able to perform the Democratic trick of also appearing like a hero of the left in the primaries. Plus, actual African-American voters didn't really flock to her, so there's that,

    She is an effective cross examiner (as you'd expect, given her background). She is clearly sharp.

    However, she brings nothing positive (really) to the ticket. She *might* help the Democrats a little bit in North Carolina. But that's really a might. She also reinforces - to the Sanders-ites - that their wing of the party has been ignored.

    That being said, if the maxim is "first do no harm", then Harris is not a bad pick. Picking someone from the Left of the party works if the Presidential nominee is of sound mind and body. Choosing someone from the Left when it's Joe Biden is a dangerous gambit that could backfire.

    I like Kamala. I think she'd be a good VP and a good President. I think she has a toughness that Obama lacked. But I don't know if she's a good bet here. I suspect that she's not.
    I think she’s a decent bet, and the current odds aren’t ridiculous.
    Sorry, I wasn't saying that the ticket needed someone from the left. It's just that every politician needs to do a certain amount of shifting over time without being caught out. She didn't seem to be able to do that.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,315
    What is all the fuss about? The answers to C4Ciaran's question are: VE Day; the street parties pictured look socially distanced; HMG has been flying kites about easing restrictions this weekend and what is a day here or there?
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    LOL that is one of the best things I've seen since this all stated :)
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    edited May 2020
    1959. So male.

    And so many smoking in the workplace.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    David Colman is one of the presenters.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    There’s a major fire at a Moscow hospital treating coronavirus patients.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,315

    Is KFC food really good enough to queue for?

    At least fifty cars formed a huge queue outside a Greater Manchester KFC over the Bank Holiday weekend

    Mancunians have been making the most of the fast food branch re-opening.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/kfc-long-queues-levenshulme-drivers-18226721

    Yes, and btw I'm guessing the huge queue of 50 cars was roughly 50 cars long.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    Some women. At the BBC. The "girls" (quote) who handled the PA teleprint results.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    Andy_JS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    To emulate Sweden's strategy you need
    i) A low base level of infection
    ii) A sensible population, or one that normally has a higher than average level of social distancing
    iii) A population that's prepared to be even more cautious than normal for a very long time indeed.

    I'm not sure we're there on any of those counts in this country.

    In what ways is the UK population "not sensible" compared to Sweden?
    Mate, take a look at twitter :D
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,359

    There’s a major fire at a Moscow hospital treating coronavirus patients.

    That's one way to solve the Covid-19 problem.
This discussion has been closed.