It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
The gap in all these analyses is, I think, the sensitivity of the antibody testing.
If it is the Porton Down level that is one thing. Some tests are very insensitive and miss large numbers who have had COVID19.
Why would the likes of Watford, Bournemouth, Southampton, Leicester etc possibly vote for this. At a stretch they could get 6 votes out of 20, they need 14. Straight to the Prem is therefore a non runner.
Joining League 2 is possible, the football league would benefit massively from their brands, but the path to the prem is long and uncertain, even League 1 isnt trivial to get out as the likes of Man City, Sunderland, Leeds, Forest have found, and the Champ is a bit of a lottery with so many clubs on parachute payments making historic size of club less important than recently getting Prem money.
At least if they started in league 2 they would be used to the standard of opposition they would be playing.
Isn't it obvious that they are both just running scared of Dundee United returning to the Premiership next season?
it's not that expensive to hose down and disinfect the away end after the arabs have paid a visit........
It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
The gap in all these analyses is, I think, the sensitivity of the antibody testing.
If it is the Porton Down level that is one thing. Some tests are very insensitive and miss large numbers who have had COVID19.
I might be wrong, but all the UK data released so far isn't from antibody testing e.g. The ONS survey yesterday was via random sampling of the public using swabs sent to homes.
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
The gap in all these analyses is, I think, the sensitivity of the antibody testing.
Not in this one, because it's entirely based on the numbers from antigen testing.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
The gap in all these analyses is, I think, the sensitivity of the antibody testing.
If it is the Porton Down level that is one thing. Some tests are very insensitive and miss large numbers who have had COVID19.
Is it also possible that there is a large percentage of the population that is not very susceptible to infection for one reason or another? This would mean a smallish percentage of the population showing positive antibody tests might be a significant percentage of the susceptible population.
Neither side wants a deal enough to do one. We would all be much better off accepting that and getting on with preparing for the consequences.
There's a lot of truth in that. The EU has higher priorities and the self-radicalisation conveyor belt of Leavers has not been halted by Covid-19.
We have been promised a golden tomorrow. It's time to deliver.
Between Covid 19 and Brexit, the forthcoming recession is going to be a sight to behold.
It's going to be quite a thing to live through. But we've been promised that we'll be better off not extending the transition and clearly the government will have to deliver on that, so however bad it is here we can expect it to be much worse in the EU27.
At the moment I would predict a much worse outcome for the EU, mainly because of Germany's absolute opposition to QE or even the buying of government bonds by the ECB as shown by the current impasse. This means that the response to the crisis is going to be almost entirely fiscal rather than a combination of fiscal and monetary policy such as we will have here. Large scale fiscal injections are possible for countries like Germany who can borrow at negative interest rates but will be very difficult for countries like Italy and Spain with the result that there will be much greater unemployment and business collapse in the latter countries.
This will, of course, do the UK no good whatsoever depressing exports and possibly making the trade agreement more problematic. The EU are going to face internal stresses and strains that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park. State aid is going to be another pressure point as France is already showing.
There is not going to be any kind of meaningful trade agreement. What will do for Spain is the collapse of the tourist industry. Italy is where it is all really going to kick off. I do agree that the EU is going to be tested as an institution like never before.
Well, we'll see. I cleave to the idea that neither side would ultimately be so stupid as to not have a free trade agreement but I confess the evidence for such stupidity is mounting.
It's a given that a deal in December, if any, won't amount to anything much. The UK government doesn't have the ambition and the EU doesn't have the interest and neither party has the time. Eventually - perhaps many years and much wasting of energy later - a deal will be sorted out, I am fairly sure. It will be a rule taking relationship on the EU's terms.
What is particularly stupid is this tinpot government of ours fetishising No Deal as a diversion from troubles at home.
This is a long way from an impartial view based on an unwillingness to reconcile yourself to either the referendum decision or the endorsement of that decision by the 2019 GE. There is plainly a risk that both sides will be distracted by the far more important things we each have on our plates at the present time with the result the deal will be less wide ranging than it might have been. This is unfortunate and it is equally so that the shortage of time has not prevented both sides, and the EU in particular, from wishing to adopt macho posturing in respect of the discussions.
I thought we were supposed to drive to work instead of use public transport!
Or stay on furlough. Looks like that's the government's preference after all.
There will definitely be self employed and small business people seeing a £75 unexpected cost per week and deciding to stay on furlough costing the country £500 per person.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
About as smart as those who believed a Brexit deal will be the 'easiest thing in human history'.
Nobody said will.
Changing words in quotes, let alone taking them out of context, changes the quotes meaning. Worth remembering the old quote "nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts".
That's well timed. I was just flagging this very thing.
"More than 70 million face masks will be manufactured in the UK and delivered to frontline health and care workers, as part of Government efforts to ramp up domestic production of PPE. Clinical grade FFP2 and FFP3 masks will be produced by Scottish tech firm Honeywell, with production set to begin as early as July. Up to 4.5m masks will be made each month, before being distributed to frontline NHS and social care workers." (DT)
Neither side wants a deal enough to do one. We would all be much better off accepting that and getting on with preparing for the consequences.
There's a lot of truth in that. The EU has higher priorities and the self-radicalisation conveyor belt of Leavers has not been halted by Covid-19.
We have been promised a golden tomorrow. It's time to deliver.
Between Covid 19 and Brexit, the forthcoming recession is going to be a sight to behold.
It's going to be quite a thing to live through. But we've been promised that we'll be better off not extending the transition and clearly the government will have to deliver on that, so however bad it is here we can expect it to be much worse in the EU27.
At the moment I would predict a much worse outcome for the EU, mainly because of Germany's absolute opposition to QE or even the buying of government bonds by the ECB as shown by the current impasse. This means that the response to the crisis is going to be almost entirely fiscal rather than a combination of fiscal and monetary policy such as we will have here. Large scale fiscal injections are possible for countries like Germany who can borrow at negative interest rates but will be very difficult for countries like Italy and Spain with the result that there will be much greater unemployment and business collapse in the latter countries.
This will, of course, do the UK no good whatsoever depressing exports and possibly making the trade agreement more problematic. The EU are going to face internal stresses and strains that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park. State aid is going to be another pressure point as France is already showing.
There is not going to be any kind of meaningful trade agreement. What will do for Spain is the collapse of the tourist industry. Italy is where it is all really going to kick off. I do agree that the EU is going to be tested as an institution like never before.
Well, we'll see. I cleave to the idea that neither side would ultimately be so stupid as to not have a free trade agreement but I confess the evidence for such stupidity is mounting.
It's a given that a deal in December, if any, won't amount to anything much. The UK government doesn't have the ambition and the EU doesn't have the interest and neither party has the time. Eventually - perhaps many years and much wasting of energy later - a deal will be sorted out, I am fairly sure. It will be a rule taking relationship on the EU's terms.
What is particularly stupid is this tinpot government of ours fetishising No Deal as a diversion from troubles at home.
This is a long way from an impartial view based on an unwillingness to reconcile yourself to either the referendum decision or the endorsement of that decision by the 2019 GE. There is plainly a risk that both sides will be distracted by the far more important things we each have on our plates at the present time with the result the deal will be less wide ranging than it might have been. This is unfortunate and it is equally so that the shortage of time has not prevented both sides, and the EU in particular, from wishing to adopt macho posturing in respect of the discussions.
All FTA talks are about macho posturing. You should see the kinds of things the Americans demand. We are going to have to get used to it.
"More than 70 million face masks will be manufactured in the UK and delivered to frontline health and care workers, as part of Government efforts to ramp up domestic production of PPE. Clinical grade FFP2 and FFP3 masks will be produced by Scottish tech firm Honeywell, with production set to begin as early as July. Up to 4.5m masks will be made each month, before being distributed to frontline NHS and social care workers." (DT)
About 3 months too late though.
Also, it isn't even a drop in the bucket. A million a week.
Why would the likes of Watford, Bournemouth, Southampton, Leicester etc possibly vote for this. At a stretch they could get 6 votes out of 20, they need 14. Straight to the Prem is therefore a non runner.
Joining League 2 is possible, the football league would benefit massively from their brands, but the path to the prem is long and uncertain, even League 1 isnt trivial to get out as the likes of Man City, Sunderland, Leeds, Forest have found, and the Champ is a bit of a lottery with so many clubs on parachute payments making historic size of club less important than recently getting Prem money.
At least if they started in league 2 they would be used to the standard of opposition they would be playing.
Isn't it obvious that they are both just running scared of Dundee United returning to the Premiership next season?
it's not that expensive to hose down and disinfect the away end after the arabs have paid a visit........
Dens Park has hoses? And disinfectant? At least they can safely put them away for another year.
It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
Also, as with other hyper-optimistic modelling, this one comes out with an extremely low estimate of the fatality rate - 0.2%.
Given that 0.26% of the whole population of New York City has already died, perhaps the reviewers should also have asked for some discussion of that aspect.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
Why would you possibly manage a transport system on the basis that you might need to run at 20% capacity for the next two years.
You would run it terribly for 99 years and well for 1 year in the extremely unlikely event the policy was not scrapped before that 1 year came.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Listening to Talk Radio this morning Mike Graham asked a tory MP about rumours a group of his colleagues want Johnson gone.
cant see anything in the papers, but interesting nevertheless.
He's delivered Brexit and the majority so what the fuck is the use of him now?
He's certainly no use at being a Pandemic PM. It, unlike Brexit, can't be managed by hastily confected lies about giving it a taste of our great British spunk.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
To be fair, it is the right thing to do. The congestin charge should be extended and the fares freeze was plainly stupid. It's the framing that is strange. Khan is being given exactly what he would have wanted but could not do. He now has it all and the perfect excuse of being forced to do it. A mismanaged TfL narrative is a process thing, it is not visceral and is unlikely to drive angry voters to the polls. If I were Shaun Bailey I would be livid!
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
Why would you possibly manage a transport system on the basis that you might need to run at 20% capacity for the next two years.
You would run it terribly for 99 years and well for 1 year in the extremely unlikely event the policy was not scrapped before that 1 year came.
It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
The gap in all these analyses is, I think, the sensitivity of the antibody testing.
If it is the Porton Down level that is one thing. Some tests are very insensitive and miss large numbers who have had COVID19.
Is it also possible that there is a large percentage of the population that is not very susceptible to infection for one reason or another? This would mean a smallish percentage of the population showing positive antibody tests might be a significant percentage of the susceptible population.
That is a scenario that I have thought about as well.
Another nasty one is that asymptomatic carriers are asymptomatic because they don't produce (many) antibodies.
Or that the virus is largely asymptomatic but is vulnerable to replication error that produces a nastier form. The nastier form therefore "appears" apparently randomly....
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Infantile
Why? As is seen on here, you mention you back someone that the left wing hates and it is not just a case of polite disagreement but downright name calling.
Much of the professional left-wing commentary these days reminds me of the Socrates quote in his trial "the most stupid people in the world are those who think they know anything and do not realise they know anything". They think they are right about everything and those who disagree are to be battered into submission , name called etc. It is a very unattractive trait.
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
Only a crazed zealot would consider Theresa May's deal a soft Brexit deal.
Oh, it's you.
You're one to talk!
While I was rare for this site in being vehemently opposed to her deal, there were a great number of Brexiteers in Parliament and in the public in opinion polls that shared my opinion.
Anyway the only reasonable way to define Brexit is what both sides said Brexit would be during the referendum campaign. Soft Brexit would be softer than that, Hard Brexit would be harder than that. During the referendum campaign both sides of the debate defined Brexit as the UK leaving the Single Market, the end of EU laws in this country, the end of the ECJ applying in this country, the UK regaining control over laws, immigration and trade. Vote Leave said the UK would get a trade deal, the Remainers said we might not. There were some notable exceptions, eg Mr Tyndall of this parish, but both official sides defined Brexit as leaving the Single Market etc
So I think the only reasonable definition is: Simply Brexit as debated during the campaign: UK leaves, regains controls of laws, immigration and trade, gets a trade deal.
Soft Brexit: The EU still has a say over UK laws, immigration or trade, and/or the ECJ retains a role on UK laws.
Hard Brexit: UK leaves without a deal.
May's deal, especially the backstop, is clearly very soft not hard. The EU retained control over UK laws, UK trade etc while we were in the backstop. If we get a trade deal we will be leaving transition on the Brexit debated during the referendu campaign, neither hard nor soft.
It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
The gap in all these analyses is, I think, the sensitivity of the antibody testing.
If it is the Porton Down level that is one thing. Some tests are very insensitive and miss large numbers who have had COVID19.
Is it also possible that there is a large percentage of the population that is not very susceptible to infection for one reason or another? This would mean a smallish percentage of the population showing positive antibody tests might be a significant percentage of the susceptible population.
Obviously, the difficulty with that idea is that to give overall estimates of R in the range 2-3, the transmissibility among the susceptible population would have to be much larger.
Perhaps a more workable idea is that the population can be divided into those who are staying at home and those who are out and about, and that there is now a significant degree of immunity among the latter. But that wouldn't be much help post-lockdown.
Neither side wants a deal enough to do one. We would all be much better off accepting that and getting on with preparing for the consequences.
There's a lot of truth in that. The EU has higher priorities and the self-radicalisation conveyor belt of Leavers has not been halted by Covid-19.
We have been promised a golden tomorrow. It's time to deliver.
Between Covid 19 and Brexit, the forthcoming recession is going to be a sight to behold.
It's going to be quite a thing to live through. But we've been promised that we'll be better off not extending the transition and clearly the government will have to deliver on that, so however bad it is here we can expect it to be much worse in the EU27.
At the moment I would predict a much worse outcome for the EU, mainly because of Germany's absolute opposition to QE or even the buying of government bonds by the ECB as shown by the current impasse. This means that the response to the crisis is going to be almost entirely fiscal rather than a combination of fiscal and monetary policy such as we will have here. Large scale fiscal injections are possible for countries like Germany who can borrow at negative interest rates but will be very difficult for countries like Italy and Spain with the result that there will be much greater unemployment and business collapse in the latter countries.
This will, of course, do the UK no good whatsoever depressing exports and possibly making the trade agreement more problematic. The EU are going to face internal stresses and strains that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park. State aid is going to be another pressure point as France is already showing.
There is not going to be any kind of meaningful trade agreement. What will do for Spain is the collapse of the tourist industry. Italy is where it is all really going to kick off. I do agree that the EU is going to be tested as an institution like never before.
Well, we'll see. I cleave to the idea that neither side would ultimately be so stupid as to not have a free trade agreement but I confess the evidence for such stupidity is mounting.
It's a given that a deal in December, if any, won't amount to anything much. The UK government doesn't have the ambition and the EU doesn't have the interest and neither party has the time. Eventually - perhaps many years and much wasting of energy later - a deal will be sorted out, I am fairly sure. It will be a rule taking relationship on the EU's terms.
What is particularly stupid is this tinpot government of ours fetishising No Deal as a diversion from troubles at home.
This is a long way from an impartial view based on an unwillingness to reconcile yourself to either the referendum decision or the endorsement of that decision by the 2019 GE. There is plainly a risk that both sides will be distracted by the far more important things we each have on our plates at the present time with the result the deal will be less wide ranging than it might have been. This is unfortunate and it is equally so that the shortage of time has not prevented both sides, and the EU in particular, from wishing to adopt macho posturing in respect of the discussions.
For the record, I have never had a problem reconciling myself to the referendum decision, nor have I doubted that it would go ahead. Brexit is a big strategic mistake for Britain for a number of specific reasons. Mistakes don't stop being such because you commit to making them. however democratic the decision to do so. We're seeing the contradictions playing out now.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Infantile
Why? As is seen on here, you mention you back someone that the left wing hates and it is not just a case of polite disagreement but downright name calling.
Much of the professional left-wing commentary these days reminds me of the Socrates quote in his trial "the most stupid people in the world are those who think they know anything and do not realise they know anything". They think they are right about everything and those who disagree are to be battered into submission , name called etc. It is a very unattractive trait.
Sorry, it should have said "do not realise they know nothing"!
"More than 70 million face masks will be manufactured in the UK and delivered to frontline health and care workers, as part of Government efforts to ramp up domestic production of PPE. Clinical grade FFP2 and FFP3 masks will be produced by Scottish tech firm Honeywell, with production set to begin as early as July. Up to 4.5m masks will be made each month, before being distributed to frontline NHS and social care workers." (DT)
About 3 months too late though.
How many do we need?
5 a day for NHS front line? 2.5m 1 a day for care workers? 1.5m 1 for every 5 public transport journeys = 5m per day
Thats 9m per day before you get onto dentists, supermarkets etc and if its enclosed spaces, why not offices too.
Im guessing its in the order of 1bn per month we need, so 4.5m is helpful but tiny.
And beginning production in July doesnt seem early to me?
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
About as smart as those who believed a Brexit deal will be the 'easiest thing in human history'.
Nobody said will.
Changing words in quotes, let alone taking them out of context, changes the quotes meaning. Worth remembering the old quote "nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts".
That's well timed. I was just flagging this very thing.
"Trump is an arse BUT ..."
See?
Agreed its exactly the same . . . I am not sure to whom you're referring to but it is exact same thing.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
Democrat criticism of Trump is far too visceral and ignores important facts. Facts like Black employment was at a record high before Corona. Facts like blue collar workers had done pretty well too. Facts like Trump was tougher on China than his predecessors.
What they need is a Keir Starmer figure. Dispassionate. Forensic.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Infantile
Why? As is seen on here, you mention you back someone that the left wing hates and it is not just a case of polite disagreement but downright name calling.
Much of the professional left-wing commentary these days reminds me of the Socrates quote in his trial "the most stupid people in the world are those who think they know anything and do not realise they know anything". They think they are right about everything and those who disagree are to be battered into submission , name called etc. It is a very unattractive trait.
Sorry, it should have said "do not realise they know nothing"!
Because liking someone because you think they wind people up that you dislike (and wanting "middle class leftists" trolled is hardly the heights of polite disagreement) might be an ok reason if you're talking about a stand-up comedian, but it's a pretty pathetic reason for a US president.
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
To be fair, it is the right thing to do. The congestin charge should be extended and the fares freeze was plainly stupid. It's the framing that is strange. Khan is being given exactly what he would have wanted but could not do. He now has it all and the perfect excuse of being forced to do it. A mismanaged TfL narrative is a process thing, it is not visceral and is unlikely to drive angry voters to the polls. If I were Shaun Bailey I would be livid!
Why is it possibly the right thing to do?
People will either:
use the tube = spread the virus more with bigger cost to the treasury use the furlough scheme for longer = bigger cost to the treasury
I really dont understand how this is even a consideration let alone a policy backed by many.
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
To be fair, it is the right thing to do. The congestin charge should be extended and the fares freeze was plainly stupid. It's the framing that is strange. Khan is being given exactly what he would have wanted but could not do. He now has it all and the perfect excuse of being forced to do it. A mismanaged TfL narrative is a process thing, it is not visceral and is unlikely to drive angry voters to the polls. If I were Shaun Bailey I would be livid!
Another way of looking at this would be that a grown up government thought it was more important to keep TFL running than to make party political points about the incompetence of the incumbent Mayor. Doesn't fit the narrative though so we should probably discount.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
When millions of voters are dismissed and talked down to like this, it is surely a perfectly good reason.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
There is much truth in your comment. Trump's allure is of the negative divisive type. He is despised by people that his supporters despise and they love him because he makes those people feel angry and upset. The appeal is strictly to the baser aspects of human nature.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
The thing is, if the American Republic is going to continue to prosper then those on the right in the US have to start caring more about what's good for the country than about winning yet another skirmish in an endless culture war against the left.
Tens of thousands of Americans have died due to Covid-19 because the culture war has become more important than very basic levels of competence or reality.
"More than 70 million face masks will be manufactured in the UK and delivered to frontline health and care workers, as part of Government efforts to ramp up domestic production of PPE. Clinical grade FFP2 and FFP3 masks will be produced by Scottish tech firm Honeywell, with production set to begin as early as July. Up to 4.5m masks will be made each month, before being distributed to frontline NHS and social care workers." (DT)
About 3 months too late though.
How many do we need?
5 a day for NHS front line? 2.5m 1 a day for care workers? 1.5m 1 for every 5 public transport journeys = 5m per day
Thats 9m per day before you get onto dentists, supermarkets etc and if its enclosed spaces, why not offices too.
Im guessing its in the order of 1bn per month we need, so 4.5m is helpful but tiny.
And beginning production in July doesnt seem early to me?
The issue with something like masks is that it is mass manufacturing a fabric based (largely) item, in a completely automated fashion.
With something like ventilators, the sub-components are pieces of metal, plastic, circuit boards. Making those is an adaption of existing facilities. Putting them together can be assembly line screw driver work - most done by humans, to a recipe.
To manufacture masks, you need the right source materials. Then you need the machinery to put them together correctly, by the 100K. Then you need tune the machinery. This is quite probably harder in terms of time.
Once you have the exact spec and source for the source material and the exact setup of machinery to make masks, then you can expand production more easily.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
Agreed 100%. Voting for Donald Trump is just like voting for Jeremy Corbyn.
Anyone with any basic decency should refuse to support either.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Infantile
Why? As is seen on here, you mention you back someone that the left wing hates and it is not just a case of polite disagreement but downright name calling.
Much of the professional left-wing commentary these days reminds me of the Socrates quote in his trial "the most stupid people in the world are those who think they know anything and do not realise they know anything". They think they are right about everything and those who disagree are to be battered into submission , name called etc. It is a very unattractive trait.
Sorry, it should have said "do not realise they know nothing"!
Because liking someone because you think they wind people up that you dislike (and wanting "middle class leftists" trolled is hardly the heights of polite disagreement) might be an ok reason if you're talking about a stand-up comedian, but it's a pretty pathetic reason for a US president.
I think "middle class leftists" is tame compared with some of the vitriol thrown the other way.
To both you and Foxy, it is superficially stupid in one way but what is more stupid is to vote for a candidate / party that seems not only to not support what you believe in but to actively demonise what you think. Why should the WWC of the US go for the Democrats?
I heard of one CEO based out in San Francisco who stated that, if any of his staff voted for Trump, he would fire them. You think that is acceptable or is that ok because it's the Democrats and Democrats are "good" people.
Both sides have blinkered views. But what people don't like about many on the left is that they shove it down peoples' throats how wonderful people are on the left are as human beings and those on the right are borderline evil.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
When millions of voters are dismissed and talked down to like this, it is surely a perfectly good reason.
?
Trump voter: "I'm going to vote for a malevolent arse because you won't like it" Foxy: "That would make you an idiot" Trump voter: "You see, it was a good reason"
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
Agreed 100%. Voting for Donald Trump is just like voting for Jeremy Corbyn.
Anyone with any basic decency should refuse to support either.
But that's what the democrats want in a republican. Someone with ''basic decency'' Such a republican would have been beaten hollow by Hilary Clinton, who has essentially cornered the market in ''basic decency''. Her book could really have been entitled ''basic decency''
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
Yeah he fought like a lion to get his misogynist drunk of choice onto the Court.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
The thing is, if the American Republic is going to continue to prosper then those on the right in the US have to start caring more about what's good for the country than about winning yet another skirmish in an endless culture war against the left.
Tens of thousands of Americans have died due to Covid-19 because the culture war has become more important than very basic levels of competence or reality.
The problem is as with prisoner's dilemma. Neither side wants to step back because (a) their most fervent supporters would crucify them and (b) they do not trust the other side to do the same. I cannot see it changing. And agree re CV
"'Very little progress' in Brexit talks with EU, UK negotiator says Very little progress was made in UK/EU talks on future trade arrangements, Britain’s chief negotiator David Frost has said."
The key change is the UK decision to make UK texts public. Even other member states weren't allowed to see them, even though the UK hoped they would influence the Commission to becoming less hardline.
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
About as smart as those who believed a Brexit deal will be the 'easiest thing in human history'.
Nobody said will.
Changing words in quotes, let alone taking them out of context, changes the quotes meaning. Worth remembering the old quote "nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts".
That's well timed. I was just flagging this very thing.
"Trump is an arse BUT ..."
See?
Agreed its exactly the same . . . I am not sure to whom you're referring to but it is exact same thing.
I was referring to the "Trump is an arse BUT ..." brigade.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
Yeah he fought like a lion to get his misogynist drunk of choice onto the Court.
Why was Kavanaugh a misogynist? Christine Blasey Ford couldn't remember basic details of what happened and claimed she was scared of flying to give herself more time for her case until it was pointed out all her pictures on Facebook of taking air travel for holidays.
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
About as smart as those who believed a Brexit deal will be the 'easiest thing in human history'.
Nobody said will.
Changing words in quotes, let alone taking them out of context, changes the quotes meaning. Worth remembering the old quote "nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts".
That's well timed. I was just flagging this very thing.
"Trump is an arse BUT ..."
See?
Agreed its exactly the same . . . I am not sure to whom you're referring to but it is exact same thing.
I was referring to the "Trump is an arse BUT ..." brigade.
You are not a particular offender.
I am not any kind of offender.
Trump is an arse. No ifs, no buts. He is a disgrace, the most jawdroppingly unsuitable man to ever besmirch the Oval Office.
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
About as smart as those who believed a Brexit deal will be the 'easiest thing in human history'.
Nobody said will.
Changing words in quotes, let alone taking them out of context, changes the quotes meaning. Worth remembering the old quote "nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts".
That's well timed. I was just flagging this very thing.
"Trump is an arse BUT ..."
See?
Agreed its exactly the same . . . I am not sure to whom you're referring to but it is exact same thing.
I was referring to the "Trump is an arse BUT ..." brigade.
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
About as smart as those who believed a Brexit deal will be the 'easiest thing in human history'.
Nobody said will.
Changing words in quotes, let alone taking them out of context, changes the quotes meaning. Worth remembering the old quote "nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts".
That's well timed. I was just flagging this very thing.
"Trump is an arse BUT ..."
See?
Agreed its exactly the same . . . I am not sure to whom you're referring to but it is exact same thing.
I was referring to the "Trump is an arse BUT ..." brigade.
I find it amazing the EU thinks the UK is bluffing on this
Extension to transistion is not permitted in UK law and Barnier seems to ignore this notwithstanding Boris 80 seat majority
I do not want no deal but it is looking inevitable that on the 1st July the UK will terminate discussions and advise companies to prepare to trade under WTO
If this happens it will be a sad and disappointing end to our membership but the EU will have questions to face of their own
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Infantile
Why? As is seen on here, you mention you back someone that the left wing hates and it is not just a case of polite disagreement but downright name calling.
Much of the professional left-wing commentary these days reminds me of the Socrates quote in his trial "the most stupid people in the world are those who think they know anything and do not realise they know anything". They think they are right about everything and those who disagree are to be battered into submission , name called etc. It is a very unattractive trait.
Sorry, it should have said "do not realise they know nothing"!
Because liking someone because you think they wind people up that you dislike (and wanting "middle class leftists" trolled is hardly the heights of polite disagreement) might be an ok reason if you're talking about a stand-up comedian, but it's a pretty pathetic reason for a US president.
I think "middle class leftists" is tame compared with some of the vitriol thrown the other way.
To both you and Foxy, it is superficially stupid in one way but what is more stupid is to vote for a candidate / party that seems not only to not support what you believe in but to actively demonise what you think. Why should the WWC of the US go for the Democrats?
I heard of one CEO based out in San Francisco who stated that, if any of his staff voted for Trump, he would fire them. You think that is acceptable or is that ok because it's the Democrats and Democrats are "good" people.
Both sides have blinkered views. But what people don't like about many on the left is that they shove it down peoples' throats how wonderful people are on the left are as human beings and those on the right are borderline evil.
Well, if what you heard actually happened in San Francisco, then of course it's not acceptable. I don't know about the laws in the US or California, but for sure it's not the Republican party who would try to ensure that CEOs aren't legally able to fire people like that. So I guess if you find that kind of behaviour unacceptable you know which party not to vote for.
Please can you tell me when I have ever said the Democrats are good people. Please don't put words into my mouth.
And you are the one who started approving of things being "shoved down peoples' throats" by saying you like Trump because he annoys people you disagree with, not me.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
There is much truth in your comment. Trump's allure is of the negative divisive type. He is despised by people that his supporters despise and they love him because he makes those people feel angry and upset. The appeal is strictly to the baser aspects of human nature.
It's the mirror image of those who want to wage spiteful class war, expropriate wealth, close private schools, control speech, etc. etc. etc., all in the warm glow of knowing how much it will hit their political opponents where it hurts.
Well, two can play at that destructive game. It would be better if both sides could agree to mutually disarm instead, but good luck with that in the present climate.
I wonder how smart all the Remainers who voted down May's soft Brexit deal are feeling now?
About as smart as those who believed a Brexit deal will be the 'easiest thing in human history'.
Nobody said will.
Changing words in quotes, let alone taking them out of context, changes the quotes meaning. Worth remembering the old quote "nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts".
That's well timed. I was just flagging this very thing.
"Trump is an arse BUT ..."
See?
Agreed its exactly the same . . . I am not sure to whom you're referring to but it is exact same thing.
I was referring to the "Trump is an arse BUT ..." brigade.
You are not a particular offender.
I am not any kind of offender.
Trump is an arse. No ifs, no buts. He is a disgrace, the most jawdroppingly unsuitable man to ever besmirch the Oval Office.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Given that nurses, care workers, doctors, bus drivers, policemen, supermarket staff etc have been carrying on putting themselves at risk for 2 months now through the worst of this first wave, I wonder if the public are soon going to become resentful of teachers saying they refuse to go back to work until they decide they are safe.
I appreciate some teachers will have been carrying on and there are serious issues at stake but at times it comes across as though teachers believe they are somehow special compared to everyone else, thank goodness nurses and care workers didn't have the same attitude. Perhaps it's just the union bods that seem totally out of touch with what everyone else is going through.
The other aspect to this is that a lot of teachers have an inbuilt loathing of Conservative governments, and are very unprepared to believe their assurances that their working environment is safe. A slightly less charitable view is that a lot of them tend to act - deliberately or otherwise - as a campaigning front for the Labour party.
I am left of centre myself so not trying to make a political point. I have no school-aged family so I don't pay too much attention to the school debate but my casual observation is that teachers are in danger of being viewed as prima donnas when they are laying down the conditions on which they might deign to return to work when millions of other people have been taking far greater risks for months.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
Agreed 100%. Voting for Donald Trump is just like voting for Jeremy Corbyn.
Anyone with any basic decency should refuse to support either.
But that's what the democrats want in a republican. Someone with ''basic decency'' Such a republican would have been beaten hollow by Hilary Clinton, who has essentially cornered the market in ''basic decency''. Her book could really have been entitled ''basic decency''
I think her book should have been entitled "It was legal. So it was morally good."
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
Democrat criticism of Trump is far too visceral and ignores important facts. Facts like Black employment was at a record high before Corona. Facts like blue collar workers had done pretty well too. Facts like Trump was tougher on China than his predecessors.
What they need is a Keir Starmer figure. Dispassionate. Forensic.
The Dems need to stop being visceral and focus instead on facts such as Trump has been great for blue collar and black jobs and strong on China?
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Anecdotal only - I regularly speak to Trump voters in the US. None of those I know like him because he "annoys all the right people". They don't think he does a perfect job, don't even think he's a very nice human being, and they wish he wouldn't say so many stupid things. I suspect the enjoyment people get from Trump's trolling is limited largely to his more hardcore supporters and perhaps particularly to his fans overseas who wish they had a politician in their own country who'd be prepared both to speak straight out, and to wind up liberals.*
Trump supporters I know feel compelled to vote for the man because of the strong sense that not only is he "on their side" (which they also perceive as the best path for America as a whole, so this isn't - as far as they see it - just a selfishly factional thing with one interest group pitched against another) but that the current leadership group of the Democrats are actively opposed to them, their lifestyle, and traditional American values. I don't think that Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment made the difference, as even if she hadn't said it they'd still have felt like that's how they were being treated. They don't think Trump is doing a great job, just that he's trying and he's good enough to keep their vote. I'm curious whether COVID will undermine that. The only realistic alternative for them would be not to vote at all.
(* For comparison this country already has David T C Davies and Nigel Farage who have made a good part of their political living from sticking the proverbial finger up. The UK voted, justabout, for Brexit. But the proportion of people thinking the likes of DTCD or Nige would be best PM, even if they find some of their trollfoolery amusing - has always been very small.)
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
Yeah he fought like a lion to get his misogynist drunk of choice onto the Court.
Why was Kavanaugh a misogynist? Christine Blasey Ford couldn't remember basic details of what happened and claimed she was scared of flying to give herself more time for her case until it was pointed out all her pictures on Facebook of taking air travel for holidays.
What's the difference between Blasey Ford and Tara Reade? I can;t see much, except some people want to believe one and not the other.
Its the same on here as in America, the criticisms are visceral and personal and not 'Trump has made a big mistake with policy x'
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
When millions of voters are dismissed and talked down to like this, it is surely a perfectly good reason.
?
Trump voter: "I'm going to vote for a malevolent arse because you won't like it" Foxy: "That would make you an idiot" Trump voter: "You see, it was a good reason"
I'm not sure what you've been drinking, but even with lockdown you do realise we're a long time from the lagershed aren't you?
Hillary Clinton was a notably poor candidate. Even in the Democratic primaries she lost to a previously barely heard of unknown Senator, then nearly lost to a geriatric socialist no-hoper Senator too. She inspired no love in the Democrat side and was hated by the Republicans. Plus by the law of 'buggins turn' it was historically the GOPs turn to win the White House anyway.
Any smart Republican would have had a great chance versus her to regain the Oval Office for their party.
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
To be fair, it is the right thing to do. The congestin charge should be extended and the fares freeze was plainly stupid. It's the framing that is strange. Khan is being given exactly what he would have wanted but could not do. He now has it all and the perfect excuse of being forced to do it. A mismanaged TfL narrative is a process thing, it is not visceral and is unlikely to drive angry voters to the polls. If I were Shaun Bailey I would be livid!
Another way of looking at this would be that a grown up government thought it was more important to keep TFL running than to make party political points about the incompetence of the incumbent Mayor. Doesn't fit the narrative though so we should probably discount.
That is not how the Tories are framing it. I do agree, though.
It is based on analysis of reported data and not any new testing data.
They look at variations between local authority areas and find a negative correlation between reported infection rate and current transmission rate, and by extrapolating their data argue that this implies much more widespread asymptomatic infection.
As I said earlier, it would be a credible explanation for the apparent falling away of new infections in London, and it is hard to see any other.
Important to note however that the few antibody testing studies so far published aren’t finding widespread infection rates,
I've just had a quick look at this. It has apparently been accepted for publication.
It presents an estimate of the percentage of the population infected (and therefore immune) based on a single regression line drawn through extremely scattered data. As IanB2 says, that estimate is much larger than the indications from antibody testing.
I can't see any confidence interval or any information by which the accuracy of the estimate can be judged. I'm surprised the reviewers didn't ask for that to be added. Peer review seems not to be a very stringent process these days.
The gap in all these analyses is, I think, the sensitivity of the antibody testing.
If it is the Porton Down level that is one thing. Some tests are very insensitive and miss large numbers who have had COVID19.
Is it also possible that there is a large percentage of the population that is not very susceptible to infection for one reason or another? This would mean a smallish percentage of the population showing positive antibody tests might be a significant percentage of the susceptible population.
That is a scenario that I have thought about as well.
Another nasty one is that asymptomatic carriers are asymptomatic because they don't produce (many) antibodies.
Or that the virus is largely asymptomatic but is vulnerable to replication error that produces a nastier form. The nastier form therefore "appears" apparently randomly....
Or a combination of the above...
I had the susceptibility thought myself. The Manchester paper's regression would work best if susceptibility was very much even across the country. Variation in susceptibility between local authorities would show up in more scatter of data points.
Given it does look like there are known variations in outcomes, e.g. for BAME patients, if there is a pattern to that scatter it could reveal other findings. I've not read the paper all the way through, so I'm not sure if anything like this is covered.
The key change is the UK decision to make UK texts public. Even other member states weren't allowed to see them, even though the UK hoped they would influence the Commission to becoming less hardline.
The rest is grandstanding
They've promised to publish them before but it didn't happen. Believe it when we see it.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
The sort of republican they like is the sort who plays the game by their rules on their pitch. Who uses their language and their commonly accepted principles to address the issues of the day.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
Exactly. The Kavanaugh nomination was a classic example - any other Republican leader would have rolled over. Trump rolled up his sleeves and fought back.
Yeah he fought like a lion to get his misogynist drunk of choice onto the Court.
And as a result, he will be able to block the policies of left-wing presidents many decades into the future. Voters with an eye on the main prize appreciate that dedication to winning in reality, not in argument or morality.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
I'm not trying to justify Trump.
But I'm not even sure the people who vote for him are, either.
He's less of a President and more of a human hand grenade, a wrecking ball sent to tell the powers-that-be that we have had enough of the status quo, of not being listened to.
His performance-as-parody reflects what the average voter thinks most politics is - a joke, a circus.
They like him precisely because the establishment figures they despise hate him.
You might argue it's infantile to vote for someone to blow a raspberry in the face of the establishment.
But Trump is a symptom of how mainstream politicians have failed the people they were supposed to represent.
Michael Moore got it right (and he's hardly a Trump fan):
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
When millions of voters are dismissed and talked down to like this, it is surely a perfectly good reason.
?
Trump voter: "I'm going to vote for a malevolent arse because you won't like it" Foxy: "That would make you an idiot" Trump voter: "You see, it was a good reason"
I'm not sure what you've been drinking, but even with lockdown you do realise we're a long time from the lagershed aren't you?
Hillary Clinton was a notably poor candidate. Even in the Democratic primaries she lost to a previously barely heard of unknown Senator, then nearly lost to a geriatric socialist no-hoper Senator too. She inspired no love in the Democrat side and was hated by the Republicans. Plus by the law of 'buggins turn' it was historically the GOPs turn to win the White House anyway.
Any smart Republican would have had a great chance versus her to regain the Oval Office for their party.
Hillary Clinton was very poor at elective politics.
She was much better suited for the non-elective positions that occur in the American system - Secretary of State etc.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Given that nurses, care workers, doctors, bus drivers, policemen, supermarket staff etc have been carrying on putting themselves at risk for 2 months now through the worst of this first wave, I wonder if the public are soon going to become resentful of teachers saying they refuse to go back to work until they decide they are safe.
I appreciate some teachers will have been carrying on and there are serious issues at stake but at times it comes across as though teachers believe they are somehow special compared to everyone else, thank goodness nurses and care workers didn't have the same attitude. Perhaps it's just the union bods that seem totally out of touch with what everyone else is going through.
The other aspect to this is that a lot of teachers have an inbuilt loathing of Conservative governments, and are very unprepared to believe their assurances that their working environment is safe. A slightly less charitable view is that a lot of them tend to act - deliberately or otherwise - as a campaigning front for the Labour party.
I would say that is uncharitable - what the teaching Unions say/do relates to the behaviour of the average teacher in about the same way that the NUS represents the views of the average student.
In the various private and state schools I know of, everyone is working out what can be done and how. There are concerns, but the response to things is not so much RunRoundScreamIngOnFireWhileAngry as HowCanWeMakeThisWork.
Mostly fair. I might say that the NUS is totally unrepresentative of the average student, while the teaching unions are often not very representative.
Teachers attitudes seem to me often to be HowCanWeMakeThisWorkDespiteTheGovernment, which I'm broadly fine with in the short run as long as the emphasis doesn't shift too far towards the second half.
My teacher grandchildren are both working, although conditions are rather strange. It's definitely a case of 'HowCanWe' at the schools where they teach (one Primary, one Secondary). Both are becoming concerned at the position of children/young people who are either about to change schools or face critical exams.
That's good to hear - maybe like GP practices the attitude will vary from school to school. Some will have a can-do attitude others will take the cash for a prolonged holiday and find excuses for why they can't possibly do anymore.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
I think that is a key reason why Trump does actually do quite well. Certainly one of the reasons for me
Infantile
Why? As is seen on here, you mention you back someone that the left wing hates and it is not just a case of polite disagreement but downright name calling.
Much of the professional left-wing commentary these days reminds me of the Socrates quote in his trial "the most stupid people in the world are those who think they know anything and do not realise they know anything". They think they are right about everything and those who disagree are to be battered into submission , name called etc. It is a very unattractive trait.
Sorry, it should have said "do not realise they know nothing"!
Because liking someone because you think they wind people up that you dislike (and wanting "middle class leftists" trolled is hardly the heights of polite disagreement) might be an ok reason if you're talking about a stand-up comedian, but it's a pretty pathetic reason for a US president.
I think "middle class leftists" is tame compared with some of the vitriol thrown the other way.
To both you and Foxy, it is superficially stupid in one way but what is more stupid is to vote for a candidate / party that seems not only to not support what you believe in but to actively demonise what you think. Why should the WWC of the US go for the Democrats?
I heard of one CEO based out in San Francisco who stated that, if any of his staff voted for Trump, he would fire them. You think that is acceptable or is that ok because it's the Democrats and Democrats are "good" people.
Both sides have blinkered views. But what people don't like about many on the left is that they shove it down peoples' throats how wonderful people are on the left are as human beings and those on the right are borderline evil.
Well, if what you heard actually happened in San Francisco, then of course it's not acceptable. I don't know about the laws in the US or California, but for sure it's not the Republican party who would try to ensure that CEOs aren't legally able to fire people like that. So I guess if you find that kind of behaviour unacceptable you know which party not to vote for.
Please can you tell me when I have ever said the Democrats are good people. Please don't put words into my mouth.
And you are the one who started approving of things being "shoved down peoples' throats" by saying you like Trump because he annoys people you disagree with, not me.
Hypocrite.
Kamski, read my words - I said many on the left, not you. Hillary Clinton called 50%+ of Trump's voters "deplorable". You think that is acceptable?
As for my personal views, I think putting a smiley face after my original comment might suggest I am not being 100% serious but hey ho...
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
To be fair, it is the right thing to do. The congestin charge should be extended and the fares freeze was plainly stupid. It's the framing that is strange. Khan is being given exactly what he would have wanted but could not do. He now has it all and the perfect excuse of being forced to do it. A mismanaged TfL narrative is a process thing, it is not visceral and is unlikely to drive angry voters to the polls. If I were Shaun Bailey I would be livid!
Another way of looking at this would be that a grown up government thought it was more important to keep TFL running than to make party political points about the incompetence of the incumbent Mayor. Doesn't fit the narrative though so we should probably discount.
That is not how the Tories are framing it. I do agree, though.
The question would be, did the government do any different when talking with the rail franchisees about their emergency timetables, and I think the honest answer is that they didn't.
But Trump is a symptom of how mainstream politicians have failed the people they were supposed to represent.
I think that may be largely true, in the pre-covid era.
Sadly many of the people who thought they were being failed by politicians are in the process of getting a fatal lesson in what failure really looks like...
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Given that nurses, care workers, doctors, bus drivers, policemen, supermarket staff etc have been carrying on putting themselves at risk for 2 months now through the worst of this first wave, I wonder if the public are soon going to become resentful of teachers saying they refuse to go back to work until they decide they are safe.
I appreciate some teachers will have been carrying on and there are serious issues at stake but at times it comes across as though teachers believe they are somehow special compared to everyone else, thank goodness nurses and care workers didn't have the same attitude. Perhaps it's just the union bods that seem totally out of touch with what everyone else is going through.
The other aspect to this is that a lot of teachers have an inbuilt loathing of Conservative governments, and are very unprepared to believe their assurances that their working environment is safe. A slightly less charitable view is that a lot of them tend to act - deliberately or otherwise - as a campaigning front for the Labour party.
I would say that is uncharitable - what the teaching Unions say/do relates to the behaviour of the average teacher in about the same way that the NUS represents the views of the average student.
In the various private and state schools I know of, everyone is working out what can be done and how. There are concerns, but the response to things is not so much RunRoundScreamIngOnFireWhileAngry as HowCanWeMakeThisWork.
Mostly fair. I might say that the NUS is totally unrepresentative of the average student, while the teaching unions are often not very representative.
Teachers attitudes seem to me often to be HowCanWeMakeThisWorkDespiteTheGovernment, which I'm broadly fine with in the short run as long as the emphasis doesn't shift too far towards the second half.
My teacher grandchildren are both working, although conditions are rather strange. It's definitely a case of 'HowCanWe' at the schools where they teach (one Primary, one Secondary). Both are becoming concerned at the position of children/young people who are either about to change schools or face critical exams.
That's good to hear - maybe like GP practices the attitude will vary from school to school. Some will have a can-do attitude others will take the cash for a prolonged holiday and find excuses for why they can't possibly do anymore.
One of the most precious attributes I look for in employees is "Self starting".
When faced with a problem, which do you do?
- do something constructive - stop - stop and whinge
Note that it is often useful to complain, but as part of a constructive engagement with the problem and other people.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Given that nurses, care workers, doctors, bus drivers, policemen, supermarket staff etc have been carrying on putting themselves at risk for 2 months now through the worst of this first wave, I wonder if the public are soon going to become resentful of teachers saying they refuse to go back to work until they decide they are safe.
I appreciate some teachers will have been carrying on and there are serious issues at stake but at times it comes across as though teachers believe they are somehow special compared to everyone else, thank goodness nurses and care workers didn't have the same attitude. Perhaps it's just the union bods that seem totally out of touch with what everyone else is going through.
The other aspect to this is that a lot of teachers have an inbuilt loathing of Conservative governments, and are very unprepared to believe their assurances that their working environment is safe. A slightly less charitable view is that a lot of them tend to act - deliberately or otherwise - as a campaigning front for the Labour party.
I would say that is uncharitable - what the teaching Unions say/do relates to the behaviour of the average teacher in about the same way that the NUS represents the views of the average student.
In the various private and state schools I know of, everyone is working out what can be done and how. There are concerns, but the response to things is not so much RunRoundScreamIngOnFireWhileAngry as HowCanWeMakeThisWork.
Mostly fair. I might say that the NUS is totally unrepresentative of the average student, while the teaching unions are often not very representative.
Teachers attitudes seem to me often to be HowCanWeMakeThisWorkDespiteTheGovernment, which I'm broadly fine with in the short run as long as the emphasis doesn't shift too far towards the second half.
My teacher grandchildren are both working, although conditions are rather strange. It's definitely a case of 'HowCanWe' at the schools where they teach (one Primary, one Secondary). Both are becoming concerned at the position of children/young people who are either about to change schools or face critical exams.
That's good to hear - maybe like GP practices the attitude will vary from school to school. Some will have a can-do attitude others will take the cash for a prolonged holiday and find excuses for why they can't possibly do anymore.
We are sacrificing our very youngest generation to protect the lives of the oldest
Not only has the government "forced" Sadiq Khan to extend the congestion charge, but also to increase fares. There is no way he could ever have got away with doing either off his own back. It would have been electorally disastrous. Now he gets a cleaner city, more cash and the chance to blame the Tories! From his perspective, what's not to like?
It does allow a "mismanaged TFL" story and scraps his (tourist subsidising) "Frozen Fares" pledge.....but I suspect there will be plenty of "mismanaged" and "broken pledges" to throw around on all sides.
To be fair, it is the right thing to do. The congestin charge should be extended and the fares freeze was plainly stupid. It's the framing that is strange. Khan is being given exactly what he would have wanted but could not do. He now has it all and the perfect excuse of being forced to do it. A mismanaged TfL narrative is a process thing, it is not visceral and is unlikely to drive angry voters to the polls. If I were Shaun Bailey I would be livid!
Another way of looking at this would be that a grown up government thought it was more important to keep TFL running than to make party political points about the incompetence of the incumbent Mayor. Doesn't fit the narrative though so we should probably discount.
That is not how the Tories are framing it. I do agree, though.
The question would be, did the government do any different when talking with the rail franchisees about their emergency timetables, and I think the honest answer is that they didn't.
Once again I detect the hand of Rishi in this since TFL were begging the Treasury for help at the weekend. He seems an admirably pragmatic chap focused on the national interest.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
All Republican candidates are demonised and then, in later years, when it suits the Democrats, they then get lauded as "principled" and the "right" sort of Republican. Happened with Reagan, GW Bush and Romney, and even McCain.
Trump is one of a kind so I see less chance of it here. But I would disagree he has made things more dangerous and others are more to blame. Even Condolezza Rice said the biggest mistake was to let China into the WTO.
I wasn't demonizing him, I was describing him.
But, yes, "one of a kind" - I'll give you that one. He is. Certainly as regards US big ticket politics anyway.
The ironic thing is he remains unfulfilled. He would much rather be a 'strongman' kleptocrat dictator in the less developed world. He loves and rates those guys. Bet he has a picture of Vlad as his screensaver.
Despite beings its most high profile foreign supporter, Trump is a huge barrier to the chances of Brexit becoming a success. If he loses, Brexit does have some cards to try and play, if he wins again, we have nowhere to go.
Very rare that I agree with Fraser Nelson these days but I think we are going to have to try some sort of regional controls here. Even in Scotland if you are not in a care home the risk of CV seems pretty minimal outside greater Glasgow. That might not always be the case but there are a lot of people isolated from family and friends, struggling with depression and the multiple side effects of that or in need of treatment for unrelated conditions who are being locked down and are at minimal risk. And there are some who want to go back to work too. People whose wages are not being paid by the State in the main.
Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest in the population.
Those working for the public sector (like me) with a guaranteed income and pension are, relatively, content with the lockdown and have no problem with it being extended. Why should we? Safety first and all that. Scotland, of course, has a huge host of comfortably-off middle-class white collar public sector workers who dominate the political system.
My thoughts are with the poor blighters who are in the private sector, are self-employed, who run small businesses, and have mortgages to pay. This situation must seem horrific to them. No-one is clapping for them at 8pm on a Thursday. But I suspect their interests will simply be ignored by the priviligentsia.
Interesting how this same issue is presented in differing ways depending on political outlook. For the right - cossetted public sector vs exposed private sector. For the left - privileged middle class professionals vs the exploited working class.
Either way the private sector working class are being hit hardest at the moment and the public sector middle class surviving best economically the impact of the lockdown
Funnily enough, from my experience, the biggest supporters of a draconian, as long as it takes lockdown have been middle class public sector professionals whose wages and pensions are not impacted currently by the crisis
Ps I have also found them the worst for not paying their cleaners, dog walkers etc during the crisis as well
Really? Or are you making shit up to support the softhead prejudice that one expects from a Trump fanboy?
No, I'm not. My wife and I were laid off. We took a conscious decision we would pay our dogwalker because she is stretched for cash and needs the income. Two of her clients whom we all know, who all have kept their jobs and WFH, and incomes remain unchanged and signal virtue at every opportunity didn't. The dogwalker is stressing out.
Ps Grow up. Just because somebody has a point of view you disagree with doesn't make them a "Trump fanboy"
Aren't you virtue signalling over your benevolence to your dogwalker?
Can you say who you would prefer to win WH2020? Please show your workings.
Not really. I didn't say upfront we were paying, only when challenged. Kinablu asked for information so I answered.
On who would prefer to win the WH, Trump over Biden. I think Trump personally is an absolutely a*se as a human being. But his analysis on China has been right strategically and I think for the coming problems, it is better to have him than Biden.
Ps at the risk of being seen to virtue signal (again), I did say a few threads back that, even though I am a Conservative, I did think the closing of the mines in the 1980s was wrong as it destroyed the communities. Voting one way doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.
Interesting to have a few Trump supporters like you here, ensures all views are heard
Mmm.
Given this is a betting site, always good to have a diversity of opinion to help improve your chances of winning
I agree with that. You stick around. But I cannot understand how somebody of intelligence can be sanguine about another 4 years of this malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House.
I think the clue to you, as so often, is in language. You use the word "arse" to describe him. He's an arse as a person. A bit of an arse. A total arse. Whatever. This is a classic tell. I hear it a lot from people about Trump - always from those who do not see him as the global menace he palpably is. "He's an arse" is invariably followed with a "but" and then comes the apologia.
Well, there is no but, because he is NOT an "arse" - as a person or otherwise. What he is is the malevolent, vacuous, hate-monging troll in the White House. But not, IMO, for much longer.
Thing is, many voters want middle class leftists trolled. THey don't particularly like Trump, but he annoys the heck out of people they like much less.
That is a particularly stupid reason to elect someone to the most powerful office in the land. Democracy does however give morons equality of voting rights, with the sage and wise
When millions of voters are dismissed and talked down to like this, it is surely a perfectly good reason.
?
Trump voter: "I'm going to vote for a malevolent arse because you won't like it" Foxy: "That would make you an idiot" Trump voter: "You see, it was a good reason"
I'm not sure what you've been drinking, but even with lockdown you do realise we're a long time from the lagershed aren't you?
Hillary Clinton was a notably poor candidate. Even in the Democratic primaries she lost to a previously barely heard of unknown Senator, then nearly lost to a geriatric socialist no-hoper Senator too. She inspired no love in the Democrat side and was hated by the Republicans. Plus by the law of 'buggins turn' it was historically the GOPs turn to win the White House anyway.
Any smart Republican would have had a great chance versus her to regain the Oval Office for their party.
Again a personal slur, and with it a hypothetical argument presented as fact.
"It comes as Drakeford publishes the lockdown exit plan for Wales, setting out a traffic light system for progressive easing of restrictions on education, social life and business."
Its all a bit silly isn't it. We can't have the UK government 5 level system, we have to show everybody we have control and power, so we will use a traffic light system instead.
Comments
If it is the Porton Down level that is one thing. Some tests are very insensitive and miss large numbers who have had COVID19.
Trump does none of those things. That is why they find him so intensely annoying.
https://twitter.com/ShaunBaileyUK/status/1261205414475071488?s=20
https://twitter.com/AmandeepBhogal/status/1261218852358238208?s=20
"Trump is an arse BUT ..."
See?
"More than 70 million face masks will be manufactured in the UK and delivered to frontline health and care workers, as part of Government efforts to ramp up domestic production of PPE. Clinical grade FFP2 and FFP3 masks will be produced by Scottish tech firm Honeywell, with production set to begin as early as July. Up to 4.5m masks will be made each month, before being distributed to frontline NHS and social care workers." (DT)
About 3 months too late though.
Given that 0.26% of the whole population of New York City has already died, perhaps the reviewers should also have asked for some discussion of that aspect.
You would run it terribly for 99 years and well for 1 year in the extremely unlikely event the policy was not scrapped before that 1 year came.
He's certainly no use at being a Pandemic PM. It, unlike Brexit, can't be managed by hastily confected lies about giving it a taste of our great British spunk.
Another nasty one is that asymptomatic carriers are asymptomatic because they don't produce (many) antibodies.
Or that the virus is largely asymptomatic but is vulnerable to replication error that produces a nastier form. The nastier form therefore "appears" apparently randomly....
Or a combination of the above...
Much of the professional left-wing commentary these days reminds me of the Socrates quote in his trial "the most stupid people in the world are those who think they know anything and do not realise they know anything". They think they are right about everything and those who disagree are to be battered into submission , name called etc. It is a very unattractive trait.
While I was rare for this site in being vehemently opposed to her deal, there were a great number of Brexiteers in Parliament and in the public in opinion polls that shared my opinion.
Anyway the only reasonable way to define Brexit is what both sides said Brexit would be during the referendum campaign. Soft Brexit would be softer than that, Hard Brexit would be harder than that. During the referendum campaign both sides of the debate defined Brexit as the UK leaving the Single Market, the end of EU laws in this country, the end of the ECJ applying in this country, the UK regaining control over laws, immigration and trade. Vote Leave said the UK would get a trade deal, the Remainers said we might not. There were some notable exceptions, eg Mr Tyndall of this parish, but both official sides defined Brexit as leaving the Single Market etc
So I think the only reasonable definition is:
Simply Brexit as debated during the campaign: UK leaves, regains controls of laws, immigration and trade, gets a trade deal.
Soft Brexit: The EU still has a say over UK laws, immigration or trade, and/or the ECJ retains a role on UK laws.
Hard Brexit: UK leaves without a deal.
May's deal, especially the backstop, is clearly very soft not hard. The EU retained control over UK laws, UK trade etc while we were in the backstop. If we get a trade deal we will be leaving transition on the Brexit debated during the referendu campaign, neither hard nor soft.
Perhaps a more workable idea is that the population can be divided into those who are staying at home and those who are out and about, and that there is now a significant degree of immunity among the latter. But that wouldn't be much help post-lockdown.
5 a day for NHS front line? 2.5m
1 a day for care workers? 1.5m
1 for every 5 public transport journeys = 5m per day
Thats 9m per day before you get onto dentists, supermarkets etc and if its enclosed spaces, why not offices too.
Im guessing its in the order of 1bn per month we need, so 4.5m is helpful but tiny.
And beginning production in July doesnt seem early to me?
What they need is a Keir Starmer figure. Dispassionate. Forensic.
People will either:
use the tube = spread the virus more with bigger cost to the treasury
use the furlough scheme for longer = bigger cost to the treasury
I really dont understand how this is even a consideration let alone a policy backed by many.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-sent-recovering-coronavirus-patients-to-nursing-homes-it-was-a-fatal-error-11589470773
Tens of thousands of Americans have died due to Covid-19 because the culture war has become more important than very basic levels of competence or reality.
With something like ventilators, the sub-components are pieces of metal, plastic, circuit boards. Making those is an adaption of existing facilities. Putting them together can be assembly line screw driver work - most done by humans, to a recipe.
To manufacture masks, you need the right source materials. Then you need the machinery to put them together correctly, by the 100K. Then you need tune the machinery. This is quite probably harder in terms of time.
Once you have the exact spec and source for the source material and the exact setup of machinery to make masks, then you can expand production more easily.
Anyone with any basic decency should refuse to support either.
To both you and Foxy, it is superficially stupid in one way but what is more stupid is to vote for a candidate / party that seems not only to not support what you believe in but to actively demonise what you think. Why should the WWC of the US go for the Democrats?
I heard of one CEO based out in San Francisco who stated that, if any of his staff voted for Trump, he would fire them. You think that is acceptable or is that ok because it's the Democrats and Democrats are "good" people.
Both sides have blinkered views. But what people don't like about many on the left is that they shove it down peoples' throats how wonderful people are on the left are as human beings and those on the right are borderline evil.
Trump voter: "I'm going to vote for a malevolent arse because you won't like it"
Foxy: "That would make you an idiot"
Trump voter: "You see, it was a good reason"
"'Very little progress' in Brexit talks with EU, UK negotiator says
Very little progress was made in UK/EU talks on future trade arrangements, Britain’s chief negotiator David Frost has said."
The rest is grandstanding
It's no deal all the way folks.
You are not a particular offender.
Trump is an arse. No ifs, no buts. He is a disgrace, the most jawdroppingly unsuitable man to ever besmirch the Oval Office.
Influenza and virus peaks and no deal food supply issues.
It's gonna be a belter.
Extension to transistion is not permitted in UK law and Barnier seems to ignore this notwithstanding Boris 80 seat majority
I do not want no deal but it is looking inevitable that on the 1st July the UK will terminate discussions and advise companies to prepare to trade under WTO
If this happens it will be a sad and disappointing end to our membership but the EU will have questions to face of their own
Please can you tell me when I have ever said the Democrats are good people. Please don't put words into my mouth.
And you are the one who started approving of things being "shoved down peoples' throats" by saying you like Trump because he annoys people you disagree with, not me.
Hypocrite.
Well, two can play at that destructive game. It would be better if both sides could agree to mutually disarm instead, but good luck with that in the present climate.
I doubt you'll get hired by Team Biden.
Trump supporters I know feel compelled to vote for the man because of the strong sense that not only is he "on their side" (which they also perceive as the best path for America as a whole, so this isn't - as far as they see it - just a selfishly factional thing with one interest group pitched against another) but that the current leadership group of the Democrats are actively opposed to them, their lifestyle, and traditional American values. I don't think that Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment made the difference, as even if she hadn't said it they'd still have felt like that's how they were being treated. They don't think Trump is doing a great job, just that he's trying and he's good enough to keep their vote. I'm curious whether COVID will undermine that. The only realistic alternative for them would be not to vote at all.
(* For comparison this country already has David T C Davies and Nigel Farage who have made a good part of their political living from sticking the proverbial finger up. The UK voted, justabout, for Brexit. But the proportion of people thinking the likes of DTCD or Nige would be best PM, even if they find some of their trollfoolery amusing - has always been very small.)
Its the same on here as in America, the criticisms are visceral and personal and not 'Trump has made a big mistake with policy x'
Hillary Clinton was a notably poor candidate. Even in the Democratic primaries she lost to a previously barely heard of unknown Senator, then nearly lost to a geriatric socialist no-hoper Senator too. She inspired no love in the Democrat side and was hated by the Republicans. Plus by the law of 'buggins turn' it was historically the GOPs turn to win the White House anyway.
Any smart Republican would have had a great chance versus her to regain the Oval Office for their party.
Given it does look like there are known variations in outcomes, e.g. for BAME patients, if there is a pattern to that scatter it could reveal other findings. I've not read the paper all the way through, so I'm not sure if anything like this is covered.
https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-publish-draft-trade-deal-in-next-nine-days-after-eu-says-make-your-mind-up-11953846
https://twitter.com/AndySlater/status/1261048907880181761?s=20
But I'm not even sure the people who vote for him are, either.
He's less of a President and more of a human hand grenade, a wrecking ball sent to tell the powers-that-be that we have had enough of the status quo, of not being listened to.
His performance-as-parody reflects what the average voter thinks most politics is - a joke, a circus.
They like him precisely because the establishment figures they despise hate him.
You might argue it's infantile to vote for someone to blow a raspberry in the face of the establishment.
But Trump is a symptom of how mainstream politicians have failed the people they were supposed to represent.
Michael Moore got it right (and he's hardly a Trump fan):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDL3Yjl31K8
She was much better suited for the non-elective positions that occur in the American system - Secretary of State etc.
As for my personal views, I think putting a smiley face after my original comment might suggest I am not being 100% serious but hey ho...
Sadly many of the people who thought they were being failed by politicians are in the process of getting a fatal lesson in what failure really looks like...
When faced with a problem, which do you do?
- do something constructive
- stop
- stop and whinge
Note that it is often useful to complain, but as part of a constructive engagement with the problem and other people.
We are sacrificing our very youngest generation to protect the lives of the oldest
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/14/sacrificing-youngest-generation-protect-lives-oldest/
For those wanting a year's extension to this nonsense - what's the point?
But, yes, "one of a kind" - I'll give you that one. He is. Certainly as regards US big ticket politics anyway.
The ironic thing is he remains unfulfilled. He would much rather be a 'strongman' kleptocrat dictator in the less developed world. He loves and rates those guys. Bet he has a picture of Vlad as his screensaver.
Its all a bit silly isn't it. We can't have the UK government 5 level system, we have to show everybody we have control and power, so we will use a traffic light system instead.