Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
See, when you put it like that you have a really good point.
That was my point , perhaps not well put the first time.
Mr. Scott, I find the food retailers aspect pretty weird.
They've been working hard and ensured supplies remained solid even when people were panic-buying, and their staff have been some of the few to be persistently in contact with the public on a daily basis.
Not sure why they should be subject to a pernicious tax on top of that.
Not a fan of windfall taxes generally but there's more of a case for one (or less of an argument against, to be precise) when it comes to online retailers.
Don't see why people doing business should be penalised. The money they make allows them to do helpful things like provide the public with food and the state with taxes.
There is a contradiction built into reality. To be taxed in any significant way you have to be honest and successful. There is no-one else to get all that money out of. Drug dealers, bank robbers and benefits junkies are not good sources of revenue. Hard working businesses are. The sense that a lot of left/centre left people don't really get this keeps millions of people voting Tory even when they have to hold their hard working noses to do so.
Mr. Scott, I find the food retailers aspect pretty weird.
They've been working hard and ensured supplies remained solid even when people were panic-buying, and their staff have been some of the few to be persistently in contact with the public on a daily basis.
Not sure why they should be subject to a pernicious tax on top of that.
Not a fan of windfall taxes generally but there's more of a case for one (or less of an argument against, to be precise) when it comes to online retailers.
Don't see why people doing business should be penalised. The money they make allows them to do helpful things like provide the public with food and the state with taxes.
There is a contradiction built into reality. To be taxed in any significant way you have to be honest and successful. There is no-one else to get all that money out of. Drug dealers, bank robbers and benefits junkies are not good sources of revenue. Hard working businesses are.
Legalising drugs would raise billions in tax and save a fortune on the police and prisons.
Mr. Scott, I find the food retailers aspect pretty weird.
They've been working hard and ensured supplies remained solid even when people were panic-buying, and their staff have been some of the few to be persistently in contact with the public on a daily basis.
Not sure why they should be subject to a pernicious tax on top of that.
Not a fan of windfall taxes generally but there's more of a case for one (or less of an argument against, to be precise) when it comes to online retailers.
Don't see why people doing business should be penalised. The money they make allows them to do helpful things like provide the public with food and the state with taxes.
There is a contradiction built into reality. To be taxed in any significant way you have to be honest and successful. There is no-one else to get all that money out of. Drug dealers, bank robbers and benefits junkies are not good sources of revenue. Hard working businesses are.
Legalising drugs would raise billions in tax and save a fortune on the police and prisons.
Since lockdown I have now gone to direct payment into the bank accounts of my children when they buy items for us but will now only pay anyone working for us in this way doing away with cash
If this becomes the norm I expect many tradespeople will see the end of being paid in cash
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
I think there is inflation out there at the moment that is not being recorded either because it is coming through the end of two for one deals at supermarkets or its prevalent in goods (hand sanitiser) that are not weighted right in the calculation. For instance petrol is heavily involved in the calculation at the moment but nobody needs it but we do need less weighted stuff like PPE and flour!
Sort of makes intuitive sense that a lot more will follow as a lot of money has been transferred from government or corporate accounts to individuals throughout the crisis (furlough etc) which cannot be spent at the moment but will soon
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
See, when you put it like that you have a really good point.
That was my point , perhaps not well put the first time.
A friend of mine has been going on about this & it's really valid. How many obesity-related deaths occur each year in the UK? You don't see a lot of fuss being made about it but his argument is that we should accept coronavirus is around and focus rather on obesity and exercise.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
There needs to be a rethink of social care policy - but also of our attitude to assisted dying. Should be much easier to get a living will in place - and have it honoured. If I pass the threshold of being able to physically look after myself without 24 hour care, I want to be able to have my intention to checkout shortly thereafter honoured. The same with a medical assessment of dementia. The idea of having that for ten or fifteen years - imposed on me - that terrifies me.
This is the kind of question that was not permitted to be asked in March when the lockdown was imposed. There are plenty of other such questions. E.g. what is the % of the population who must be infected to reach herd immunity. If anyone tells you it is 60-80% ask them how they know and what is their evidence for this claim. Neither swine flu nor Spanish flu infected more than one third of the population. We could be nearer to herd immunity than we realise.
I think the lockdown restrictions on meeting friends and family will gradually break down over the next year or two as their impossibility becomes apparent.
For most people they won't last as long as that. People who aren't vulnerable or shielding themselves, or have close family and friends that are, may not appreciate just what a bloody slog really serious self-isolation is. Doubtless some people who are sufficiently ill or frightened will manage to sequester themselves for however long this takes, but many others (especially older people who are either still sprightly and active, or fear that they may die of something else before this is over and never get to see their families again) will ultimately give up - and that goes double for younger people with no underlying health conditions.
Basically if you're under 60, in reasonable shape and you don't have a particular responsibility towards a vulnerable person then your incentive for obeying lockdown is very low. And once people start giving up on the restrictions and habitually meeting up in public or going round each others' houses for barbecues and playdates and dinners, then the rationale behind a blanket lockdown is removed and we might as well do a Sweden.
The problem with that is, of course, that the Government, public bodies, trades unions and the like are now all so completely obsessed with the threat of Covid-19 - to the exclusion of all other problems - that they're incapable of taking any approach that permits anything more than an infinitesimal degree of risk. It's what another poster described last night as the worst of all worlds: private citizens, whose movements are too diffuse and numerous for the police possibly to control, will visit each other, spread the illness and render the lockdown pointless, whilst we'll all still be forced to live through the rationing or outright withdrawal of healthcare and education, and the destruction of whole sectors of the economy, as those businesses and services whose activities can be more easily curtailed are pointlessly throttled to death. All because "something must be done."
How could the Government have gone down the Swedish route without every single media and Opposition voice screaming 'Murderers!' for the next five years?
Great header, @Foxy. Always nice to hear from people with professional experience.
A close relative of mine who is also a doctor broadly agrees with your conclusions, particularly about the likely endemic future of the virus.
How would your projections of future long waiting lists change if there is a widely available vaccine in, say, a year?
Thanks,
I think that an effective vaccine in a year would at least bring closure, but the backlog on the waiting lists, whether surgery, medical specialities or mental health will take years to get back down. I expect they will be better in 2024 than 2022, but much longer than 2019.
No party has really thought through the implications, but I think Health and Social care will be a central issue in the 2024 GE.
This is the kind of question that was not permitted to be asked in March when the lockdown was imposed. There are plenty of other such questions. E.g. what is the % of the population who must be infected to reach herd immunity. If anyone tells you it is 60-80% ask them how they know and what is their evidence for this claim. Neither swine flu nor Spanish flu infected more than one third of the population. We could be nearer to herd immunity than we realise.
I think the lockdown restrictions on meeting friends and family will gradually break down over the next year or two as their impossibility becomes apparent.
For most people they won't last as long as that. People who aren't vulnerable or shielding themselves, or have close family and friends that are, may not appreciate just what a bloody slog really serious self-isolation is. Doubtless some people who are sufficiently ill or frightened will manage to sequester themselves for however long this takes, but many others (especially older people who are either still sprightly and active, or fear that they may die of something else before this is over and never get to see their families again) will ultimately give up - and that goes double for younger people with no underlying health conditions.
Basically if you're under 60, in reasonable shape and you don't have a particular responsibility towards a vulnerable person then your incentive for obeying lockdown is very low. And once people start giving up on the restrictions and habitually meeting up in public or going round each others' houses for barbecues and playdates and dinners, then the rationale behind a blanket lockdown is removed and we might as well do a Sweden.
The problem with that is, of course, that the Government, public bodies, trades unions and the like are now all so completely obsessed with the threat of Covid-19 - to the exclusion of all other problems - that they're incapable of taking any approach that permits anything more than an infinitesimal degree of risk. It's what another poster described last night as the worst of all worlds: private citizens, whose movements are too diffuse and numerous for the police possibly to control, will visit each other, spread the illness and render the lockdown pointless, whilst we'll all still be forced to live through the rationing or outright withdrawal of healthcare and education, and the destruction of whole sectors of the economy, as those businesses and services whose activities can be more easily curtailed are pointlessly throttled to death. All because "something must be done."
How could the Government have gone down the Swedish route without every single media and Opposition voice screaming 'Murderers!' for the next five years?
Thanks @Foxy for most interesting and informative header. It sounds like people should avoid coming down with anything serious for the time being. Brains to stay clear and unfuddled and all body parts to keep working properly until January 2023. Let's hope Sod's Law does not apply here.
Mr. Scott, I find the food retailers aspect pretty weird.
They've been working hard and ensured supplies remained solid even when people were panic-buying, and their staff have been some of the few to be persistently in contact with the public on a daily basis.
Not sure why they should be subject to a pernicious tax on top of that.
Not a fan of windfall taxes generally but there's more of a case for one (or less of an argument against, to be precise) when it comes to online retailers.
Don't see why people doing business should be penalised. The money they make allows them to do helpful things like provide the public with food and the state with taxes.
There is a contradiction built into reality. To be taxed in any significant way you have to be honest and successful. There is no-one else to get all that money out of. Drug dealers, bank robbers and benefits junkies are not good sources of revenue. Hard working businesses are.
Legalising drugs would raise billions in tax and save a fortune on the police and prisons.
Agree.
Its a tricky one to get right though isn't it? If you do a sin tax to raise money you sort of want a lot of sin! Which in turn makes everyone more unhealthy.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
There needs to be a rethink of social care policy - but also of our attitude to assisted dying. Should be much easier to get a living will in place - and have it honoured. If I pass the threshold of being able to physically look after myself without 24 hour care, I want to be able to have my intention to checkout shortly thereafter honoured. The same with a medical assessment of dementia. The idea of having that for ten or fifteen years - imposed on me - that terrifies me.
This is what the ReSPECT initiative is all about, setting the parameters of how much care is appropriate. Done correctly it is in everyone's interest.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
I don’t think you judge people’s fitness by appearance alone, or on whether they ride scooters. I know of too many fitness nuts brought down by heart attacks.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
There needs to be a rethink of social care policy - but also of our attitude to assisted dying. Should be much easier to get a living will in place - and have it honoured. If I pass the threshold of being able to physically look after myself without 24 hour care, I want to be able to have my intention to checkout shortly thereafter honoured. The same with a medical assessment of dementia. The idea of having that for ten or fifteen years - imposed on me - that terrifies me.
This is what the ReSPECT initiative is all about, setting the parameters of how much care is appropriate. Done correctly it is in everyone's interest.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
The NHS needs to take it over. Integration and state funding of both might have been in Nye Bevan's original plan, but somehow they got separated and UK social care seems to have become as useless as the US healthcare system ... well, maybe not quite as bad, but pretty awful.
This is the kind of question that was not permitted to be asked in March when the lockdown was imposed. There are plenty of other such questions. E.g. what is the % of the population who must be infected to reach herd immunity. If anyone tells you it is 60-80% ask them how they know and what is their evidence for this claim. Neither swine flu nor Spanish flu infected more than one third of the population. We could be nearer to herd immunity than we realise.
I think the lockdown restrictions on meeting friends and family will gradually break down over the next year or two as their impossibility becomes apparent.
For most people they won't last as long as that. People who aren't vulnerable or shielding themselves, or have close family and friends that are, may not appreciate just what a bloody slog really serious self-isolation is. Doubtless some people who are sufficiently ill or frightened will manage to sequester themselves for however long this takes, but many others (especially older people who are either still sprightly and active, or fear that they may die of something else before this is over and never get to see their families again) will ultimately give up - and that goes double for younger people with no underlying health conditions.
Basically if you're under 60, in reasonable shape and you don't have a particular responsibility towards a vulnerable person then your incentive for obeying lockdown is very low. And once people start giving up on the restrictions and habitually meeting up in public or going round each others' houses for barbecues and playdates and dinners, then the rationale behind a blanket lockdown is removed and we might as well do a Sweden.
The problem with that is, of course, that the Government, public bodies, trades unions and the like are now all so completely obsessed with the threat of Covid-19 - to the exclusion of all other problems - that they're incapable of taking any approach that permits anything more than an infinitesimal degree of risk. It's what another poster described last night as the worst of all worlds: private citizens, whose movements are too diffuse and numerous for the police possibly to control, will visit each other, spread the illness and render the lockdown pointless, whilst we'll all still be forced to live through the rationing or outright withdrawal of healthcare and education, and the destruction of whole sectors of the economy, as those businesses and services whose activities can be more easily curtailed are pointlessly throttled to death. All because "something must be done."
How could the Government have gone down the Swedish route without every single media and Opposition voice screaming 'Murderers!' for the next five years?
Sweden did!
But Sweden has - ironically enough - a culture of deference to authority that is considered completely out-of-date and unacceptable in the UK. There's not the slightest chance our government could have gotten away with it, even if it proves ultimately to have been the right call.
Or to put it another way, only a Tory government could have gotten away with closing the economy and paying people to do nothing, and only a Labour government could have gotten away with taking the virus on the chin and asking the public to trust their good intentions.
By the way, just quickly want to clarify something I wrote yesterday.
I don't think for a moment that this side of 2025 the Tories will ditch their most successful leader since Margaret Thatcher. That's not the same as saying I think Boris will win the next GE. He 'might' stand down on ill-health grounds beforehand. He also might be beaten by Labour.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
I feel another header coming on...
The short version is that our current lifestyles are neither good for us or our planet. They are enjoyable In the short term though, so we continue doing things that we know to be foolish.
This is the kind of question that was not permitted to be asked in March when the lockdown was imposed. There are plenty of other such questions. E.g. what is the % of the population who must be infected to reach herd immunity. If anyone tells you it is 60-80% ask them how they know and what is their evidence for this claim. Neither swine flu nor Spanish flu infected more than one third of the population. We could be nearer to herd immunity than we realise.
I think the lockdown restrictions on meeting friends and family will gradually break down over the next year or two as their impossibility becomes apparent.
For most people they won't last as long as that. People who aren't vulnerable or shielding themselves, or have close family and friends that are, may not appreciate just what a bloody slog really serious self-isolation is. Doubtless some people who are sufficiently ill or frightened will manage to sequester themselves for however long this takes, but many others (especially older people who are either still sprightly and active, or fear that they may die of something else before this is over and never get to see their families again) will ultimately give up - and that goes double for younger people with no underlying health conditions.
Basically if you're under 60, in reasonable shape and you don't have a particular responsibility towards a vulnerable person then your incentive for obeying lockdown is very low. And once people start giving up on the restrictions and habitually meeting up in public or going round each others' houses for barbecues and playdates and dinners, then the rationale behind a blanket lockdown is removed and we might as well do a Sweden.
The problem with that is, of course, that the Government, public bodies, trades unions and the like are now all so completely obsessed with the threat of Covid-19 - to the exclusion of all other problems - that they're incapable of taking any approach that permits anything more than an infinitesimal degree of risk. It's what another poster described last night as the worst of all worlds: private citizens, whose movements are too diffuse and numerous for the police possibly to control, will visit each other, spread the illness and render the lockdown pointless, whilst we'll all still be forced to live through the rationing or outright withdrawal of healthcare and education, and the destruction of whole sectors of the economy, as those businesses and services whose activities can be more easily curtailed are pointlessly throttled to death. All because "something must be done."
How could the Government have gone down the Swedish route without every single media and Opposition voice screaming 'Murderers!' for the next five years?
Sweden did!
But Sweden has - ironically enough - a culture of deference to authority that is considered completely out-of-date and unacceptable in the UK. There's not the slightest chance our government could have gotten away with it, even if it proves ultimately to have been the right call.
Or to put it another way, only a Tory government could have gotten away with closing the economy and paying people to do nothing, and only a Labour government could have gotten away with taking the virus on the chin and asking the public to trust their good intentions.
unfortunately you may be right. It does show a fundamental weakness in the way our system operates though and the core thinking of politicians .
I was in A&E the other evening and was, literally, the only person there. Medics said they had had their quietest 3 weeks ever. One doctor told me in hushed tones how pleasant it had been.
Doubt you'll hear about it on the MSM as it doesn't quite fit the trope.
I’m not surprised. My GP practice is actually shut. Which is unfortunate as I needed a repeat prescription for a throat problem and I can’t get hold of anybody to authorise it.
I’m not very pleased with them.
Oh. Ours is operational. What (if any) was their excuse?
My thoughts exactly. We can order repeat prescriptions on the internet, as usual, but we can only make appointments after a telephone triage ensures that whatever seems wrong isn't Convid-19 related. That may or may not lead to an actual appointment. I've had a phone consultation and my wife has had an actual appointment for a skin complaint.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
I don’t think you judge people’s fitness by appearance alone, or on whether they ride scooters. I know of too many fitness nuts brought down by heart attacks.
Interesting. My heart issue was almost certainly brought on by overdoing exercise. There's a happy medium to be found.
By the way, just quickly want to clarify something I wrote yesterday.
I don't think for a moment that this side of 2025 the Tories will ditch their most successful leader since Margaret Thatcher. That's not the same as saying I think Boris will win the next GE. He 'might' stand down on ill-health grounds beforehand. He also might be beaten by Labour.
But the Conservative Party will not drop him.
Quite. He's already pulled off one miracle, and now he's got 4.5 years to come up with another one. He may yet fail in the end, but given his form he deserves the chance to try.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
Many people are obese because our society does not penalise obesity. In some ways it encourages it.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
I don’t think you judge people’s fitness by appearance alone, or on whether they ride scooters. I know of too many fitness nuts brought down by heart attacks.
Interesting. My heart issue was almost certainly brought on by overdoing exercise. There's a happy medium to be found.
There is a somewhat dangerous moralising tendency creeping in to discussions on fitness.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
Absolutely right
Sorry but that's crap. Running a care home is a hard job and many dont make much money at all. The big issue is staff shortages which the public sector shoudl have got a grip on years ago and spent money on training ,recruitment and better wages rather than create more non-jobs
Mr. Scott, I find the food retailers aspect pretty weird.
They've been working hard and ensured supplies remained solid even when people were panic-buying, and their staff have been some of the few to be persistently in contact with the public on a daily basis.
Not sure why they should be subject to a pernicious tax on top of that.
Not a fan of windfall taxes generally but there's more of a case for one (or less of an argument against, to be precise) when it comes to online retailers.
Don't see why people doing business should be penalised. The money they make allows them to do helpful things like provide the public with food and the state with taxes.
There is a contradiction built into reality. To be taxed in any significant way you have to be honest and successful. There is no-one else to get all that money out of. Drug dealers, bank robbers and benefits junkies are not good sources of revenue. Hard working businesses are.
Legalising drugs would raise billions in tax and save a fortune on the police and prisons.
Agree.
Its a tricky one to get right though isn't it? If you do a sin tax to raise money you sort of want a lot of sin! Which in turn makes everyone more unhealthy.
Agree. The legal status of alcohol leads to very considerable burdens on society in terms of health, mental health, policing, education, social work and so on. To give a lot more drugs legal status would probably lead to a lot more of the same; the issue is not (mostly) about taxing it, it is about whether the overall harm done by its uncontrolled illegality is greater or less than the overall harm done by legalisation.
It is obvious that lots of people with great experience in public policy believe in a degree of legalisation, but because of the Daily Mail etc can only say so after they are retired.
It is just the sort of area where Boris would be a good bet for breaking the log jam as he is a libertarian popular with Mail and Sun readers. Somehow I think he has other things on his plate, which he is much less qualified to do like organising a state where you need a lawful reason to walk down the street.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
I feel another header coming on...
The short version is that our current lifestyles are neither good for us or our planet. They are enjoyable In the short term though, so we continue doing things that we know to be foolish.
But we are also paying for the privilege. Smokers and drinkers over pay in taxation in terms of what they cost, for example.
The irony is that the salaries of the people who would seek to lecture us are being payed by the lectured to.
guaranteed to be rubbish but absolutely shocking that you find this topic funny Harry. I know you have the Scottish cringe but that is bad. It is a hash of the usual no hopers saying SNPBasd, bit like my previous post on carcrash care home numbers, he mixed up Scottish and English numbers as he transferred them from his fingers. Keep trying and one day you will get your English badge.
If you want people to use mobility scooters less, make pavements genuinely flat, install 1:12 ramps everywhere and public transport easily wheelchair accessible.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
I was being observational, rather than judgmental. I was especially referring to seeing morbidly obese young men and women, in their 20's and 30's. If you work in an office during the day, you just won't see them. But travel around Britian's towns and they are an obvious sight. And as malcy points out, do you see them abroad? Maybe the US. But nowhere else that I can recall. Maybe it is the safety net of our welfare state. Are we if not exactly killling with kindness, then shortening lives - and those short lives are filled with disease.
Things as deadly as Covid have been going on under our noses for many years. We have just chosen not to notice. Imagine if we had closed down the economy until the nation's collective BMI was down by 10....
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
There needs to be a rethink of social care policy - but also of our attitude to assisted dying. Should be much easier to get a living will in place - and have it honoured. If I pass the threshold of being able to physically look after myself without 24 hour care, I want to be able to have my intention to checkout shortly thereafter honoured. The same with a medical assessment of dementia. The idea of having that for ten or fifteen years - imposed on me - that terrifies me.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
I don’t think you judge people’s fitness by appearance alone, or on whether they ride scooters. I know of too many fitness nuts brought down by heart attacks.
very true and also being skinny does not mean healthy
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
It is quite amazing , I am sure I saw numbers that said the mobility car fleet in UK was biggest fleet anywhere in
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Jonathan, Again I think missing the point , why are so many people ill, fat , disabled , etc in UK compared to other countries.
I feel another header coming on...
The short version is that our current lifestyles are neither good for us or our planet. They are enjoyable In the short term though, so we continue doing things that we know to be foolish.
But we are also paying for the privilege. Smokers and drinkers over pay in taxation in terms of what they cost, for example.
The irony is that the salaries of the people who would seek to lecture us are being payed by the lectured to.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
Absolutely right
We can't afford that, though, just like we can;t afford a new normal. The evidence is we will shortly be very, very bankrupt.
People talk about innovation and new ways of working for certain industries without giving a single detail of what those ways are. That is because those alternative ways do not exist.
We either live with coronavirus or, essentially, our society disintegrates. Health education, the economy, the whole thing
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
Absolutely right
Sorry but that's crap. Running a care home is a hard job and many dont make much money at all. The big issue is staff shortages which the public sector shoudl have got a grip on years ago and spent money on training ,recruitment and better wages rather than create more non-jobs
While there's a lot in that with which I'd agree, there has been, apparently, a policy from Govt that, especially in Care, Public is bad and Private good. Consequently publicly owned homes, which often had unionised staff have been sold off and a plethora of private companies, large and small encouraged. At the same time the amount of money available from the public purse has increasingly been less than that necessary to run a decent service. And, IMHO, that's why we are where we are.
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
One of the things that I found truly shocking when I stopped working every hour God sent in an office, was the state of the people who are out on the High Street during the day time. Town centres taken over by mobility scooters - and not by any means all elderly. Rich pickings for a virus.
I was reminded of a cartoon by Kliban - "God gave us these bodies because he has better ones at home..."
Don’t judge people on mobility scooters. You don’t know their story.
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
I was being observational, rather than judgmental. I was especially referring to seeing morbidly obese young men and women, in their 20's and 30's. If you work in an office during the day, you just won't see them. But travel around Britian's towns and they are an obvious sight. And as malcy points out, do you see them abroad? Maybe the US. But nowhere else that I can recall. Maybe it is the safety net of our welfare state. Are we if not exactly killling with kindness, then shortening lives - and those short lives are filled with disease.
Things as deadly as Covid have been going on under our noses for many years. We have just chosen not to notice. Imagine if we had closed down the economy until the nation's collective BMI was down by 10....
You can imagine why I might be sensitive to folk making snap judgements.
I hate the way our society having created the amazing liberating technology of electric scooters far from celebrating the fact people can get out an about, somehow (and I am not talking about you) contrives a social stigma that users of scooters are somehow feckless.
guaranteed to be rubbish but absolutely shocking that you find this topic funny Harry. I know you have the Scottish cringe but that is bad. It is a hash of the usual no hopers saying SNPBasd, bit like my previous post on carcrash care home numbers, he mixed up Scottish and English numbers as he transferred them from his fingers. Keep trying and one day you will get your English badge.
I understand England has confirmed 17,000 tracers appointed to date and it will be up and running by the end of the month
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL and start now
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL and start now
The same sort of people who bang on about unfairness in education, how we shouldn't have selection in schools, widen access to unis, then send their kids to private school & pay for tutoring for Oxford interviews.
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
The schools are not closed.
Believe you me my son who is head of IT has never been busier
And by the way this is doing huge damage to many children, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and some may have life chances seriously prejeudiced by the lack of schooling
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
Why is the gov doing stuff differently now we have more detailed info about the virus ?
guaranteed to be rubbish but absolutely shocking that you find this topic funny Harry. I know you have the Scottish cringe but that is bad. It is a hash of the usual no hopers saying SNPBasd, bit like my previous post on carcrash care home numbers, he mixed up Scottish and English numbers as he transferred them from his fingers. Keep trying and one day you will get your English badge.
I understand England has confirmed 17,000 tracers appointed to date and it will be up and running by the end of the month
Having a go at Scotland at zero is fair
G, you rage about anyone criticising Boris, government etc yet someone laughing at such a sensitive topic is ok in your book, have a think. PS: The Daily Record and the lying Tories in the article have no idea who has or has not been hired. Maybe you should be laughing at the 100K a day that was supposedly achieved once by Hancock booking himself 40K tests and never ever met again.
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
I dont think they should have closed schools anyway but its certainly safer now than then and you can only deprive kids of education, opportunity and social mobility for so long before you have to start again
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
They were never closed & the proposal is only for modest increase in kids by having a select number of year groups back.
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
They haven't closed schools, they are open. Where do you think the key workers kids are?
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
Absolutely right
Sorry but that's crap. Running a care home is a hard job and many dont make much money at all. The big issue is staff shortages which the public sector shoudl have got a grip on years ago and spent money on training ,recruitment and better wages rather than create more non-jobs
While there's a lot in that with which I'd agree, there has been, apparently, a policy from Govt that, especially in Care, Public is bad and Private good. Consequently publicly owned homes, which often had unionised staff have been sold off and a plethora of private companies, large and small encouraged. At the same time the amount of money available from the public purse has increasingly been less than that necessary to run a decent service. And, IMHO, that's why we are where we are.
The fact is that societies up until ours never had to deal with substantial numbers of people over the age of 80.
Its great for many to enjoy their family being around for much longer, but the costs are enormous. The burden of the young was already heavy before Corona virus. After it, the burden will be crushing. Its getting to the point where this is destabilising society.
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
The schools are not closed.
Believe you me my son who is head of IT has never been busier
And by the way this is doing huge damage to many children, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and some may have life chances seriously prejeudiced by the lack of schooling
Schools never busier? Really. Why do you think the government is doing huge damage to children? Not like you to be so critical.
guaranteed to be rubbish but absolutely shocking that you find this topic funny Harry. I know you have the Scottish cringe but that is bad. It is a hash of the usual no hopers saying SNPBasd, bit like my previous post on carcrash care home numbers, he mixed up Scottish and English numbers as he transferred them from his fingers. Keep trying and one day you will get your English badge.
I understand England has confirmed 17,000 tracers appointed to date and it will be up and running by the end of the month
Having a go at Scotland at zero is fair
G, you rage about anyone criticising Boris, government etc yet someone laughing at such a sensitive topic is ok in your book, have a think. PS: The Daily Record and the lying Tories in the article have no idea who has or has not been hired. Maybe you should be laughing at the 100K a day that was supposedly achieved once by Hancock booking himself 40K tests and never ever met again.
You protest too much Malc
As of today England have hired 17,000 Scotland nil
guaranteed to be rubbish but absolutely shocking that you find this topic funny Harry. I know you have the Scottish cringe but that is bad. It is a hash of the usual no hopers saying SNPBasd, bit like my previous post on carcrash care home numbers, he mixed up Scottish and English numbers as he transferred them from his fingers. Keep trying and one day you will get your English badge.
I understand England has confirmed 17,000 tracers appointed to date and it will be up and running by the end of the month
Having a go at Scotland at zero is fair
G, you rage about anyone criticising Boris, government etc yet someone laughing at such a sensitive topic is ok in your book, have a think. PS: The Daily Record and the lying Tories in the article have no idea who has or has not been hired. Maybe you should be laughing at the 100K a day that was supposedly achieved once by Hancock booking himself 40K tests and never ever met again.
I note the McHealth heidyin took time out of her busy schedule to arrange for a SNP cheerleader to get an Asda delivery.
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
That is a question that is going to be asked about the re-start of a whole range of institutions.
There is no answer beyond economic and social imperative. Lockdown was never sustainable.
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
The schools are not closed.
Believe you me my son who is head of IT has never been busier
And by the way this is doing huge damage to many children, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and some may have life chances seriously prejeudiced by the lack of schooling
My teacher grandson and his teacher wife are still working, and have done, albeit on changed schedules right through the 'lockdown'. Grandson teaches in a primary school in a somewhat disadvantaged area. It's been quite challenging!
Excellent thread @Foxy - I don't envy the task facing those working in the NHS. I would take issue with this:
Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention.
You can't turn on the news these days without hearing about mental health. Sure enough, the Sky News presenter Niall Paterson has just said he's starting to suffer and they'll be discussing it on (I think) the Sophy Ridge show.
Have to say the UK has turned into a bunch of wimps. Everybody seems to be ill and cannot cope with anything nowadays, why does it have top billing in every disorder known to man.
To be honest Malc we have a close family member suffering from PTSD after rescuing bodies in an earthquake zone. It is not something to dismiss so easily to be honest
G, I understand people can be really ill with these types of things but why does UK have so high a number for all these ailments and disabilities. It is the saddest , fattest , unhealthiest , most disabled country in the developed world.
See, when you put it like that you have a really good point.
That was my point , perhaps not well put the first time.
A friend of mine has been going on about this & it's really valid. How many obesity-related deaths occur each year in the UK? You don't see a lot of fuss being made about it but his argument is that we should accept coronavirus is around and focus rather on obesity and exercise.
Crisp tax anyone?
I doubt that these kinds of sin taxes have the intended effect. They simply make things that taste nice less affordable for poor people.
Mistake by Gove - he should have said no to the first question , nobody can be guaranteed to be safe - its a stupid question and condition . Teachers (you would hope) are able to weigh up the small risk as against the wider social need (you hope they value educating kids highly) and against their duty as paid employees to help get the country back
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
The schools are not closed.
Believe you me my son who is head of IT has never been busier
And by the way this is doing huge damage to many children, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and some may have life chances seriously prejeudiced by the lack of schooling
Schools never busier? Really. Why do you think the government is doing huge damage to children? Not like you to be so critical.
Did you not read what I said
My son has never been busier as his school adapts and puts in place large amounts of computer and distance learning systems and other related IT matters to ensure safe learning
The idea HMG is doing huge damage to children is a nonsense
My son is at private school. He is getting 3-4 online classes a day. He is set homework which is promptly marked, his teachers respond to his numerous emails, they are available for 1-1 explanations as required. It’s not quite school but for a highly motivated boy like him it’s pretty close.
His school already gets more science passes at higher than the 8 state schools in Dundee. Most of those he will be competing against for his advanced Highers next year are getting absolutely minimal educational input and are being left to their own devices. It’s frankly not close to being fair. It’s not that fair in normal times but Covid is increasing the disparities to breaking point.
Kids need to get back to school before their education is irredeemably ruined. Poor kids most of all. There is no acceptable alternative.
The Conservative party took a wrong turn in its pursuit of power.
At least be thankful that Farage and Banks weren't co-opted into the "Get Brexit Done" Cabinet. Small mercies I know given the calibre of most of those we have got.
On design; my local hospital, a 21st century build, has public atrium space which resembles the airport terminal of an a African dictator but the spaces where people might actually be ill, treated, healed etc are cramped like a student squat or fruit pickers accommodation. The general public spotted all this immediately. Why was this not obvious to the professionals?
Professional what? is the question.
The professional architects designed it.
The professional managers commissioning the project probably liked it.
The professional politicians, who came on opening day, probably liked the light and airy feel.
The professional journalists probably commented on how modern and nice the building was.
The professional photographers who took the pictures for the brochures, website etc probably commented extremely favourably on all the light.
I can think of a West London hospital where the same thing was done - given the price of local real estate the multi floor atrium is probably the most expensive air space in the world.
Somebody should tell these middle class media types who think it is is trendy to not get kids back to school that that's fine , we will open schools but if you dont want to send your kids (they do really) then sign this and they cannot come until the virus is eliminated in say 3 years. Not many would sign. Middle class parents can generally home school , other kids dont get that privilege. Education is supposed to be a leveller of opportunity so it needs to start again for ALL
Why did they close the schools? Why wasn’t it safe then and why is it safe now? What has materially changed beyond the government finances becoming trickier?
The schools are not closed.
Believe you me my son who is head of IT has never been busier
And by the way this is doing huge damage to many children, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and some may have life chances seriously prejeudiced by the lack of schooling
Schools never busier? Really. Why do you think the government is doing huge damage to children? Not like you to be so critical.
Did you not read what I said
My son has never been busier as his school adapts and puts in place large amounts of computer and distance learning systems and other related IT matters to ensure safe learning
The idea HMG is doing huge damage to children is a nonsense
You just said “This is doing huge damage to children “, not me. Make your mind up.
My son is at private school. He is getting 3-4 online classes a day. He is set homework which is promptly marked, his teachers respond to his numerous emails, they are available for 1-1 explanations as required. It’s not quite school but for a highly motivated boy like him it’s pretty close.
His school already gets more science passes at higher than the 8 state schools in Dundee. Most of those he will be competing against for his advanced Highers next year are getting absolutely minimal educational input and are being left to their own devices. It’s frankly not close to being fair. It’s not that fair in normal times but Covid is increasing the disparities to breaking point.
Kids need to get back to school before their education is irredeemably ruined. Poor kids most of all. There is no acceptable alternative.
And the really weird thing about this is that it is the left and the unions making unrealistic demands that will, if they succeed, push the poor and disadvantaged children to the bottom rung of the ladder
The fact is that societies up until ours never had to deal with substantial numbers of people over the age of 80.
Its great for many to enjoy their family being around for much longer, but the costs are enormous. The burden of the young was already heavy before Corona virus. After it, the burden will be crushing. Its getting to the point where this is destabilising society.
Are you proposing a Logan's Run solution? What age should the cut-off be set at?
On design; my local hospital, a 21st century build, has public atrium space which resembles the airport terminal of an a African dictator but the spaces where people might actually be ill, treated, healed etc are cramped like a student squat or fruit pickers accommodation. The general public spotted all this immediately. Why was this not obvious to the professionals?
Professional what? is the question.
The professional architects designed it.
The professional managers commissioning the project probably liked it.
The professional politicians, who came on opening day, probably liked the light and airy feel.
The professional journalists probably commented on how modern and nice the building was.
The professional photographers who took the pictures for the brochures, website etc probably commented extremely favourably on all the light.
I can think of a West London hospital where the same thing was done - given the price of local real estate the multi floor atrium is probably the most expensive air space in the world.
The NHS needs the space to dsiplay all the expensive art their culture experts buy. You are such a philistine.
Yep. I think we can probably surmise what caused this. There was such a desperation to get rid of the elderly from hospitals, to clear capacity for new Covid patients, that they were just thrown at the care homes to get them out of the way. I seem to recall reading elsewhere that homes which initially refused to have them back were threatened (by councils?) with having funding withdrawn if they dug their heels in, so they gave in. We all know how this ended.
Looking at what's happened abroad it looks like pretty well everyone screwed up when it came to care homes, but that doesn't make the failure any more excusable.
In England and Wales, 9 039 out of 12 483 covid-related deaths, by 1st May, were in care homes and that is 72.4%.
I presume that in a bad winter flu epidemic, the bulk of deaths are also in care homes?
Still shocking numbers mind. A tacit acceptance by the NHS that if they were over 80, there really was in all likelihood nothing that could be done for victims? Outcomes were proving very poor for the elderly taken into hospital - they just didn't respond. So let them die in the place they knew as home...
Have to say it has been a shocking failure across the UK and many other countries. In the main these homes have been run like puppy farms just to make venture capitalists money. Needs to be a complete rethink of the whole social care policy.
Absolutely right
Sorry but that's crap. Running a care home is a hard job and many dont make much money at all. The big issue is staff shortages which the public sector shoudl have got a grip on years ago and spent money on training ,recruitment and better wages rather than create more non-jobs
While there's a lot in that with which I'd agree, there has been, apparently, a policy from Govt that, especially in Care, Public is bad and Private good. Consequently publicly owned homes, which often had unionised staff have been sold off and a plethora of private companies, large and small encouraged. At the same time the amount of money available from the public purse has increasingly been less than that necessary to run a decent service. And, IMHO, that's why we are where we are.
The fact is that societies up until ours never had to deal with substantial numbers of people over the age of 80.
Its great for many to enjoy their family being around for much longer, but the costs are enormous. The burden of the young was already heavy before Corona virus. After it, the burden will be crushing. Its getting to the point where this is destabilising society.
True, of course, and I'm one of those benefiting from it. However (in spite perhaps of what I sometimes post) both my wife and I are in full possession of our mental, and indeed most of our physical, faculties, as are most of our friends. Fine. However, many of our contemporaries are not so lucky. We sometimes discuss, both between my wife and myself, and with our children, and now adult grandchildren 'what if"; physical or mental. One of the reasons we live where we do is because we can probably manage reasonably well with some physical disabilities, indeed quite significant ones if only one of us was severely affected. However mental ones might present more of a problem, especially if one, or worse, both of us were prone to wander. Woods and fields and a river are quite close.
My son is at private school. He is getting 3-4 online classes a day. He is set homework which is promptly marked, his teachers respond to his numerous emails, they are available for 1-1 explanations as required. It’s not quite school but for a highly motivated boy like him it’s pretty close.
His school already gets more science passes at higher than the 8 state schools in Dundee. Most of those he will be competing against for his advanced Highers next year are getting absolutely minimal educational input and are being left to their own devices. It’s frankly not close to being fair. It’s not that fair in normal times but Covid is increasing the disparities to breaking point.
Kids need to get back to school before their education is irredeemably ruined. Poor kids most of all. There is no acceptable alternative.
And the really weird thing about this is that it is the left and the unions making unrealistic demands that will, if they succeed, push the poor and disadvantaged children to the bottom rung of the ladder
The comments by Pidcock, Starmer and many others on the left, that teachers "cannot go back until it is safe" are risible and politically motivated. It`s about time the government attacked such idiotic comments.
My son is at private school. He is getting 3-4 online classes a day. He is set homework which is promptly marked, his teachers respond to his numerous emails, they are available for 1-1 explanations as required. It’s not quite school but for a highly motivated boy like him it’s pretty close.
His school already gets more science passes at higher than the 8 state schools in Dundee. Most of those he will be competing against for his advanced Highers next year are getting absolutely minimal educational input and are being left to their own devices. It’s frankly not close to being fair. It’s not that fair in normal times but Covid is increasing the disparities to breaking point.
Kids need to get back to school before their education is irredeemably ruined. Poor kids most of all. There is no acceptable alternative.
There isn't for a whole range of services and institutions and there never was.
Andy Haldane of the BoE reckons that up to half of Britain's workforce, some 15 million workers, will be affected by this crisis, in the form of redundancy, shorter hours or lower pay.
Some of that would have happened anyway, undoubtedly, but 15 million? half the workforce?
My son is at private school. He is getting 3-4 online classes a day. He is set homework which is promptly marked, his teachers respond to his numerous emails, they are available for 1-1 explanations as required. It’s not quite school but for a highly motivated boy like him it’s pretty close.
His school already gets more science passes at higher than the 8 state schools in Dundee. Most of those he will be competing against for his advanced Highers next year are getting absolutely minimal educational input and are being left to their own devices. It’s frankly not close to being fair. It’s not that fair in normal times but Covid is increasing the disparities to breaking point.
Kids need to get back to school before their education is irredeemably ruined. Poor kids most of all. There is no acceptable alternative.
And the really weird thing about this is that it is the left and the unions making unrealistic demands that will, if they succeed, push the poor and disadvantaged children to the bottom rung of the ladder
My sister is a teacher in Dunfermline. I can fully understand why staff and their unions want precautions taken and a plan about how this can safely be done. The risks must be minimised just as they have been in several other industries. But it needs a constructive, can do approach, not negativity and obstruction. The consequences of failure are too serious.
Comments
If this becomes the norm I expect many tradespeople will see the end of being paid in cash
My wife has an old second hand one, it’s great. Since becoming wheelchair bound due to the bastard MS it’s a huge liberation. She uses it to get to the Swimming pool, where she (usually) swims 100+ lengths powered by her arms. She’s fitter than me.
It deals with crappy pavements and pot holes better than her self propelled wheelchair.
Sort of makes intuitive sense that a lot more will follow as a lot of money has been transferred from government or corporate accounts to individuals throughout the crisis (furlough etc) which cannot be spent at the moment but will soon
Crisp tax anyone?
We have taxes - we need economic activity to return.
Dumb frekking lefties.
https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1261924293522456582?s=21
I think that an effective vaccine in a year would at least bring closure, but the backlog on the waiting lists, whether surgery, medical specialities or mental health will take years to get back down. I expect they will be better in 2024 than 2022, but much longer than 2019.
No party has really thought through the implications, but I think Health and Social care will be a central issue in the 2024 GE.
what's the difference between the situation now and the situation if we had abandoned lockdown?
You can't get treatment for anything under both scenarios.
I remember Neil Kinnock's refrain to the effect that if the tories get in 'don;'t get old and don't get ill'
That is far more true now than is was then. The strain of that will soon tell on the population big time, if it isn;t already.
https://www.resus.org.uk/respect/
Or to put it another way, only a Tory government could have gotten away with closing the economy and paying people to do nothing, and only a Labour government could have gotten away with taking the virus on the chin and asking the public to trust their good intentions.
I don't think for a moment that this side of 2025 the Tories will ditch their most successful leader since Margaret Thatcher. That's not the same as saying I think Boris will win the next GE. He 'might' stand down on ill-health grounds beforehand. He also might be beaten by Labour.
But the Conservative Party will not drop him.
The short version is that our current lifestyles are neither good for us or our planet. They are enjoyable In the short term though, so we continue doing things that we know to be foolish.
Even May managed that
It is obvious that lots of people with great experience in public policy believe in a degree of legalisation, but because of the Daily Mail etc can only say so after they are retired.
It is just the sort of area where Boris would be a good bet for breaking the log jam as he is a libertarian popular with Mail and Sun readers. Somehow I think he has other things on his plate, which he is much less qualified to do like organising a state where you need a lawful reason to walk down the street.
The irony is that the salaries of the people who would seek to lecture us are being payed by the lectured to.
It’s a long time since I thought about Factortame!
It’s one of the reasons why the EU is so keen to keep us in the EFP.
Spain has bought large chunks of English quotas. If they are not in the EFP then those businesses will need to significant downsize
Keep trying and one day you will get your English badge.
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1261771602921959426
Things as deadly as Covid have been going on under our noses for many years. We have just chosen not to notice. Imagine if we had closed down the economy until the nation's collective BMI was down by 10....
Though of course we only minimally tax sugar, and fat not at all.
People talk about innovation and new ways of working for certain industries without giving a single detail of what those ways are. That is because those alternative ways do not exist.
We either live with coronavirus or, essentially, our society disintegrates. Health education, the economy, the whole thing
And for most people its pretty liveable with.
And, IMHO, that's why we are where we are.
I hate the way our society having created the amazing liberating technology of electric scooters far from celebrating the fact people can get out an about, somehow (and I am not talking about you) contrives a social stigma that users of scooters are somehow feckless.
The role should be strategic not execution.
It should be a cabinet minister if you need political input
Having a go at Scotland at zero is fair
What goes around comes around
Believe you me my son who is head of IT has never been busier
And by the way this is doing huge damage to many children, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and some may have life chances seriously prejeudiced by the lack of schooling
Well...
PS: The Daily Record and the lying Tories in the article have no idea who has or has not been hired. Maybe you should be laughing at the 100K a day that was supposedly achieved once by Hancock booking himself 40K tests and never ever met again.
Where do you think the key workers kids are?
Its great for many to enjoy their family being around for much longer, but the costs are enormous. The burden of the young was already heavy before Corona virus. After it, the burden will be crushing. Its getting to the point where this is destabilising society.
As of today England have hired 17,000 Scotland nil
Maybe you should be asking Nicola why
Perhaps other priorities should be addressed ?
There is no answer beyond economic and social imperative. Lockdown was never sustainable.
Grandson teaches in a primary school in a somewhat disadvantaged area. It's been quite challenging!
My son has never been busier as his school adapts and puts in place large amounts of computer and distance learning systems and other related IT matters to ensure safe learning
The idea HMG is doing huge damage to children is a nonsense
https://twitter.com/sclub7421/status/1261019383486447622?s=21
His school already gets more science passes at higher than the 8 state schools in Dundee. Most of those he will be competing against for his advanced Highers next year are getting absolutely minimal educational input and are being left to their own devices. It’s frankly not close to being fair. It’s not that fair in normal times but Covid is increasing the disparities to breaking point.
Kids need to get back to school before their education is irredeemably ruined. Poor kids most of all. There is no acceptable alternative.
The professional architects designed it.
The professional managers commissioning the project probably liked it.
The professional politicians, who came on opening day, probably liked the light and airy feel.
The professional journalists probably commented on how modern and nice the building was.
The professional photographers who took the pictures for the brochures, website etc probably commented extremely favourably on all the light.
I can think of a West London hospital where the same thing was done - given the price of local real estate the multi floor atrium is probably the most expensive air space in the world.
Only if by 'right' you actually mean 'thick'.
Fine.
However, many of our contemporaries are not so lucky. We sometimes discuss, both between my wife and myself, and with our children, and now adult grandchildren 'what if"; physical or mental. One of the reasons we live where we do is because we can probably manage reasonably well with some physical disabilities, indeed quite significant ones if only one of us was severely affected. However mental ones might present more of a problem, especially if one, or worse, both of us were prone to wander. Woods and fields and a river are quite close.
Andy Haldane of the BoE reckons that up to half of Britain's workforce, some 15 million workers, will be affected by this crisis, in the form of redundancy, shorter hours or lower pay.
Some of that would have happened anyway, undoubtedly, but 15 million? half the workforce?