Johnson has clearly spent a week preparing for PMQs and still can’t do it. He is going to come to detest Starmer in a very personal way. Starmer is making him work and then relentlessly showing that he is not up to the task.
I'm biased but I gave last weeks PMQs to Starmer. This week I think it was a score draw. Starmer was asking questions he knew had no answer and Boris was able to bat them off - and managed to answer Starmer's question 4 in advance of him asking it in his answer 3 which was amusing, so when Starmer went on to ask his question still he was able to say he'd already answered that.
I think a score draw too.
SKS missed an open goal
So BJO and I think score draw, HYUFD and OGH think their own man clearly won.
Starmer coming over all 'holier than thou' and playing on emotions
Boris is not upto speed but not a complete walkover for Starmer today
Boris has a lot more to do to convince me he is back where he was before covid
I thought Boris did ok today. Starmer = typical LAB metropolitan windbag, all whinging, no solutions
I think Starmer is doing fine, but he's in a comfort zone at the moment. He needs to be planning for the next six months. How will he react to the government offering the public sector a choice between pay cuts or redundancies, for example?
It's a fair point that Starmer is fighting on chosen ground at the moment and it will be much harder when it gets to the away leg. However, if he's asked to take a penalty and is expected to score, it's still reassuring for Labour supporters that he's doing so with such ease. I'm contrasting that with a decade of memories of leaders who repeatedly failed to score when presented with an open goal. If Starmer rather than the hapless Miliband had been leader in 2015, I think Labour would have won.
So we don't even get to reduce any pension fund deficits because the wrong type of pensioner is dying? Jeez.
Sorry about that.
I always thought I might go into a career after my retirement as an executive hitman, dealing with those particularly awkward individuals that blight organisations. Wealthy pensioners and serial complainers to HR would be obvious work generators.
In the end, I decided that the hours would probably be too unsocial.
Go for it, you could get Phoebe Waller-Bridge to write a worldwide hit drama base on your activities. Slaying Senior or somesuch.
He needs to either take some leave or step up to the plate
Or resign.
He will not do that as much as you wish it
I do not really care, TBH. Some other talentless jerk will fill his shoes. Even the Tories will have to work really hard to lose an 80 seat lead so no doubt we have Truss, Patel, Hancock, Raab, et al to look forwards to as next up.
And, no doubt, you would loyally support any of them.
Not Patel but my support will depend on events
I am not HYUFD, as he continual reminds me I voted Blair twice and as such I am no longer pure !!!!!
Local officials in Russia's Dagestan region have described the situation there as a "catastrophe", with reports of a rising death toll and serious shortages of equipment.
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
If lockdown is lifted, “social distancing” has to stop. Basic, sensible hygiene measures: yes. But the idea that you can have venues and activities where social closeness is integral to the very nature of what is going on at the same time as “social distancing” is contradictory nonsense.
Why? It's not a binary on/off switch.
The shape of what's coming, internationally, is, I think, becoming clear. In economic terms, we are going to see neither a 'V' nor a 'U' nor an 'L' shaped recession. Instead, the profile going to be something like an 'L' initially but with the bottom glyph gradually turning upwards in a slow, incremental recovery. It will probably take some years before economies are back to pre-Covid-19 levels, even if a vaccine becomes widely available some time next year..
On a sector level, we are going to see a very mixed picture. Factories will largely re-open, provided they are making things which are still in demand. Offices will partially return to semi-normal with social distancing and other precautions in place, but with many or most workers still working from home. Retail - or the bit of it which survives - is going to run at reduced capacity, with social distancing precautions in place for quite a while. Schools will reopen tentatively. Universities, hotels, restaurants, pubs, theatres, concert halls, airlines, civil aviation manufacturing are completely stuffed. Non-Covid healthcare will stutter back into life but at reduced capacity.
If social distancing is maintained as a policy then all forms of social closeness and intimacy and the activities by which humans express and show and enjoy this will effectively be banned or impossible. This is pretty much every form of human activity save for that work which can be done from home or while tooled up in protective gear
This is not an economic issue fundamentally but about how we want to live.
Pretending that lockdown can be lifted and these activities can continue “with social distancing measures” in place is a big fat lie.
A life, a society where can there be no social closeness is unbearable, to me anyway. And a huge overreaction. Societies have lived with contagious and deadly diseases before without closing down everything in sight for months or years on end.
I absolutely agree with Cyclefree that the biggest cost of lockdown and social distancing are not economic, but human. Because belonging, connectedness, love - whatever you want to call it - is THE most important human need. It was the one thing Maslow got wrong in his hierarchy: it comes before physiological needs, because our evolution as sentient beings capable of speech has required newborns to create that connectedness with their mothers in order to survive, period. Without the strength of the need for connectedness, we don't even get as far as physiological needs.
But the Quarantine bubble with a small group of non-household members is a good idea. How many people can we truly have intimate relationships with that engender the strongest levels of connectedness?
Dunbar numbers suggest that 3-5 is the range for how many can be our very closest friends, our clique. This might be a good place to start with the quarantine bubble, and expand out from there. Of course, within the household unit, each person will have a different clique, even if there is some overlap, and those in the quarantine bubble from outside will have clique members neither in that bubble nor in their household. So I don't think everyone in a household could all jump from lockdown to Quarantine Bubble for all your clique members in one go, but perhaps slowly expand it as the situation progresses.
And this expansion could continue. 12-15 is the deep trust number or sympathy group, which is the number of people from whom you can accept a small amount of betrayal without severing ties. That would be the next level but by this stage, there would not be many degrees of separation between everyone in the population.
FWIW, the other Dunbar numbers are: 50, the typical overnight camp size among traditional hunter-gatherers or the familial grouping, the band 150, the the number of people for whom you can know something about them and their capabilities, i.e. for whom you can manage expectations = the friendship group. Dunbar's original research 500, the number of people with whom we can remain nodding acquaintances = the tribe 1500, the number of people for whom we can put a name to the face = the community. This is probably the underlying reason why army units and business divisions tend to be this size.
More or Less worth a listen again. Comparison with Germany very interesting, but ran the testing story again. The deception here really is disgraceful.
They picked the 15/5 when 136,000 tests were done but they are not only including posted tests but also non diagnosed tests carried out by Uni and Research Labs (30,000) so useful for other reasons but not tests to determine if people have or don't have Covid. Also 2nd tests are not generally because the previous test needs verifying, but because say the test was dropped on the floor or the testee vomited on the first test. Also a spit and nasal test is counted as two.
Total people tested = 43,000 out of a quoted figure of 136,000
It really is an appalling deception.
I have never heard 'More or Less' get so annoyed in its fact checking.
Again not news.
On the very day the 100,000 test target was announced, they announced five strands of testing including diagnostic and yes non-diagnostic testing etc - someone from the media asked what was meant by the 100,000 and Hancock replied that it was "all tests from all strands".
So that some are non-diagnostic is not news. It was what was said would be counted literally on day one.
A dropped test counts as 2 tests? You are defending the indefensible
Not the dropped test no, that's ridiculous to log that, but the non-diagnostic is what I referred to.
Who's dropping tests though and why are they logging them? I'd doubt that's a high proportion, at least I'd hope not.
It appears that the 2nd tests are because of failures to take the test in the first place largely not because they are going back to retest, but because of vomiting on the test, dropping the test, etc because of the difficulty in taking the test. Also a throat and nasal test is counted as 2 tests! I don't know why some tests are single swabs and some are 2 swabs, but it is still 1 test in my book if the test consists of 2 swabs (nose and throat). The lab might do 2 tests but it is 1 person tested. The number of 2 tests on that day was 26,000 for all reasons.
I disagree, a swab test and a nasal test is 2 tests. It literally is 2 tests - one person, 2 tests.
Would you consider a swab test and a blood test to be just one test?
I said the lab will do 2 tests but only 1 person has been tested and the Govt has been misrepresenting this quite blatantly to massage figures and pointlessly so.
Most people don't look at the data, they look at the headline figure. It is interesting that professional statisticians and their professional bodies have been backing up the misrepresentation claims quite loudly.
People will refer to the fact that they have gone to the Doctors for a test, when that will consist of several blood samples, urine sample, swab, etc.
The only purpose of making it a plural is for stock or knowing the number of tests the labs carry out. As far as the individual is concerned they have been for a test.
Just the same as when you go for an xray. You will never have 1.
Yes multiple xrays, number of examinations/test = 1
Plus what about all the other stuff that took 136K to 43K.
You think the population by and large understands that 30K weren't used to see if specific individuals had Covid or not, regardless of what was put in the small print of the announcement.
There's no misrepesentation. The headline data the government sets out includes the number of people tested. They have that in the headline chart they send out.
If the media aren't reporting that well blame the media. The data is there and clear. Numbers of tests and number of people are reported simultaneously.
That is clearly nonsense as statisticians will tell you. The Royal Statistical Society President has written to the Government expressing its concerns quite forcefully about the Govt presentation of the data. And the data is not all there. More or Less has been asking the Govt for some of the figures for sometime which the Govt claims not to have. One for instance was the returns of postal tests. There was concern for sometime that these were being counted twice in the figure (eg when going out and coming back). The Govt couldn't initially confirm that they weren't. They have now, but still can't give the figure.
This has sod all to do with the media. I am listening to what is said by the minister. It is far from transparent. Most of the data supplied on More or Less for that day was not announced by the minister.
That's a different matter. That's an issue with how you count the number of tests, not the number of people. You were complaining about people being tested twice being reported as two in the headline figures but they're reported as one person in the headline figures.
That is not correct. I was complaining about a lot of stuff not just that as the thread shows. If it were just one item I wouldn't be annoyed as stuff happens.
Just because you understand what is being announced (although how, when much of the data is missing or not announced) does not mean the person on the Clapham Omnibus does and it is to the man on the Clapham Omnibus that it is aimed. You seem ideologically accepting when reputable independent persons criticise the presentation of the data (edit - I don't mean me of course!).
The trouble with this (as you should know as you liked a comment by me on the topic a little while ago) is that I was impressed by the Govt presentation of this pandemic. Not anymore. The playing around with the data to deceive to meet an artificial target was an appalling mistake and I can only assume for political advantage.
I agree of course that playing with data is bad.
I don't agree that reporting 2 tests on 1 person as 2 tests in the test column and 1 person in the person column is misleading.
I think if someone takes a test, drops it on the floor, then takes it again the test dropped on the floor should be binned and the data should be logged as 1 test.
Is that unreasonable?
If a person needs both a saliva test and a nasal test to get a result that is surely 1 test with 2 component parts, not 2 tests? Getting a situation where the number of people tested is now 1/3 of the number of tests is just ridiculous.
The really depressing thing is that even with all this jiggery pockery, England is still doing far better in testing than Scotland. How we get out of lockdown with insufficient, too slow testing and no ability to trace those who have been in contact with anyone who apparently had the virus a week ago is beyond me.
Johnson has clearly spent a week preparing for PMQs and still can’t do it. He is going to come to detest Starmer in a very personal way. Starmer is making him work and then relentlessly showing that he is not up to the task.
Some of the short-termism on here is really quite comical. Boris is already doing better against Starmer than last time, and he has another 4+ years to practise!
I think he'll crack Sir Keira Knightly long before then
Why would she abstain? As I suspect its a partisan attack why not ask if Zarah Sultana will abstain? Or if the Corbyn - Abbott 1 line whip to abstain on the predecessor bill last summer at the same 2nd reading was more proof of evil right wingers like Abbott and Sultana
He has lost a fair amount of weight due to the virus. Less fat, which is probably good, but some of the previous muscle tone might have been lost too, which is not so good.
I need a doctor to confirm but I thought the body had a nasty habit of attacking muscle before fat when ill.
Yes, muscle metabolises to carbohydrate fairly easily, and severe illness significantly elevates the metabolic rate.
What intelligent designer thought that was a good idea?
There are a number of other similar issues, but I wasn't on the design committee.
The larengyal nerve (sp?) springs to mind
A casual look at the human eye suggests that, if intelligent design is to be believed, God is an idiot.
Or a squid. The squid eye is much more rational.
Three about equally unlikely propositions: that the eye was intelligently designed, that it was unintelligently designed; that it wasn't designed at all.
Clever but not intelligent looks the most promising candidate from the data to me. But conceptually not really a starter. Maybe Kant was right was right and you can't think sensibly about causes outside our experience.
Congratulations to HYUFD. It takes a true blinkered partisan to hurl "you're a partisan" attacks at people who clearly are not. Bravo sir, it is fine cabaret
Johnson has clearly spent a week preparing for PMQs and still can’t do it. He is going to come to detest Starmer in a very personal way. Starmer is making him work and then relentlessly showing that he is not up to the task.
Starmer is soporific in delivery, he will need to sharpen up dramatically to make much impression. Johnson handled that pretty easily to be fair.
I must say, years ago when I posted that some of the Cameroons on PB were actually lefties, I had no idea how accurate I was
Well, compared to strutting populist right wingers like yourself everyone is a lefty. Most of Margaret Thatcher's cabinet, and even Margaret herself (God bless her) would be lefties compared to you.
Two weeks in a row Sir Keir has apparently got Boris Johnson to say more than he intended. That looks like a win for Sir Keir in objective terms.
Whether anyone will care if Boris Johnson's new target is missed, we'll see.
I make that three weeks in a row. Boris' late rabbit from a hat winner ('I will ease lockdown on Sunday') two weeks ago initially looked like a stroke of genius but turned out to be a hostage to fortune.
HOC goes on holiday tomorrow for two weeks and then a few weeks later will be on their summer holidays
This is just wrong at a time like this
Yeah the last thing you'd want to do in a time of acute national crisis is shut down the HOC for weeks on end, right? Only somebody with no interest at all in the country's wellbeing would do something like that.
HOC goes on holiday tomorrow for two weeks and then a few weeks later will be on their summer holidays
This is just wrong at a time like this
Yeah the last thing you'd want to do in a time of acute national crisis is shut down the HOC for weeks on end, right? Only somebody with no interest at all in the country's wellbeing would do something like that.
I don't hate any politician I can think of in this country.
I'm with you on that. However, I would take issue with you regarding one person on the other side of the Atlantic who seems to me to be the very personification of evil.
He has lost a fair amount of weight due to the virus. Less fat, which is probably good, but some of the previous muscle tone might have been lost too, which is not so good.
I need a doctor to confirm but I thought the body had a nasty habit of attacking muscle before fat when ill.
Yes, muscle metabolises to carbohydrate fairly easily, and severe illness significantly elevates the metabolic rate.
What intelligent designer thought that was a good idea?
There are a number of other similar issues, but I wasn't on the design committee.
Was last week's "got Boris Johnson to say more than he intended" the 200k testing?
Because, it might have been, might not have been, but it isn't a problem, as they clearly knew they had the antibody test approvals for 2 different products, with both companies saying they can make 100,000s a week for the UK, so it seems unlikely to be an issue.
Johnson has clearly spent a week preparing for PMQs and still can’t do it. He is going to come to detest Starmer in a very personal way. Starmer is making him work and then relentlessly showing that he is not up to the task.
Starmer is soporific in delivery, he will need to sharpen up dramatically to make much impression. Johnson handled that pretty easily to be fair.
Today was like watching an FA Cup match between two sides of vastly different pyramid positions and thus quality - Boris was expected to lose two nil, and he did. Wasn't embarrased as he could have been.
Why would she abstain? As I suspect its a partisan attack why not ask if Zarah Sultana will abstain? Or if the Corbyn - Abbott 1 line whip to abstain on the predecessor bill last summer at the same 2nd reading was more proof of evil right wingers like Abbott and Sultana
Cos Yvette gave a speech saying why she "abstained in cross party spirit" on immigration Bill this week.
Did any of the others you mention do that doubt it but you still fail in the task not to use the letters C o r b y & n in almost every post.
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
I know, right - how very dare the Tories have 163 more MPs than Labour do? It's just not fair!
I think this is wrong. Even before lockdown, Boris had told Conservative backbenchers to stop barracking, and that was not as a favour for SKS but to help Boris. Of course, Boris could have changed his mind but let us wait and see.
Fast food chain McDonald's has opened 33 drive-through restaurants in the UK – but customers are being limited to spending £25 per car.
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
Confused as to how the £25 cap prevents covid spreading. Are they worried about people buying for 10 houses in one car trip and doing their own deliveroo style deliveries?
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
If they are working, they are already paying income tax, and National Insurance and VAT, which is how the NHS is funded. Why do they need to pay an additional immigration tax?
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
If they are working, they are already paying income tax, and National Insurance and VAT, which is how the NHS is funded. Why do they need to pay an additional immigration tax?
Was last week's "got Boris Johnson to say more than he intended" the 200k testing?
Because, it might have been, might not have been, but it isn't a problem, as they clearly knew they had the antibody test approvals for 2 different products, with both companies saying they can make 100,000s a week for the UK, so it seems unlikely to be an issue.
Abbott have said that they can supply 5 million a month to the UK immediately. If they and Roche are correct we are going to have no shortage of tests, but massive logisitcal problems of getting people and tests through the system. It's debatable whether we even need all these tests, we should perhaps be more focused on the turn around of tests.
Fast food chain McDonald's has opened 33 drive-through restaurants in the UK – but customers are being limited to spending £25 per car.
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
Confused as to how the £25 cap prevents covid spreading. Are they worried about people buying for 10 houses in one car trip and doing their own deliveroo style deliveries?
That would be my guess - along with rationing among the returning clientele. Those who haven't seen fast food junkies in action...
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
In the UK the health insurance premium is paid for by taxes. People who pay no tax this year but will pay tax next year are still allowed to use the NHS this year. This is how taxes work. The government has argued for years that tabacco tax cannot be hypothecated for NHS use, and the same argument goes for this immigrant tax.
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
If they are working, they are already paying income tax, and National Insurance and VAT, which is how the NHS is funded. Why do they need to pay an additional immigration tax?
Run with "immigration tax" please
Does any country allow you to immigrate without paying fees and taxes?
Putting aside the potentially slightly misleading headline. Even just 40-50 new cases a day on london is a lot lower than i imagined was the situation & this is with more people back to work etc.
Maybe that Israeli virologist was right - it just.....goes away.
With supposedly only 10% of Londoners having had this, i do find it quite interesting. Is it that actually a lot more have had it than the sampling suggests, is it that somehow a significant proportion of the population are immune or is it that the social distancing measures are highly effective. Or all of the above.
We may need to listen more to people such as these
Fast food chain McDonald's has opened 33 drive-through restaurants in the UK – but customers are being limited to spending £25 per car.
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
Not for a family.
What ever happened to the dollar menu and the (un)happy meal?
Its still there.
If we go to McDonalds for a treat we can spend just under £25 for a family of 4 if we buy 4 meals, with 4 desserts.
When the kids were really young we used to use a Macdonald's drive through so I could keep driving and they could relieve the boredom of a long journey with a meal. I drove with the windows down because the smell made me nauseous and I'd rather go hungry. Thankfully the kids rapidly came to the same view. I am trying to imagine a world in which a Macdonald's is a "treat". I am not sure I want to.
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
How very dare he attend an excellent school and university, have a high-flying career in finance and politics, and marry well into the bargain, all while barely breaking 40!
Fast food chain McDonald's has opened 33 drive-through restaurants in the UK – but customers are being limited to spending £25 per car.
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
Confused as to how the £25 cap prevents covid spreading. Are they worried about people buying for 10 houses in one car trip and doing their own deliveroo style deliveries?
Diabetes is a big comorbidity factor. Is the £25 limit by McyD's them "doing their bit ?"
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
Don't they already pay taxes - which last time I looked is how we fund the NHS. People of working age barely use the NHS compared to the retired, anyway, and so from an actuarially fair POV they're probably overpaying already. This whole thing is a non-issue dreamt up by the Tories so that (a) they can persuade gullible voters to believe the NHS is falling apart because of forinners and not because they are underfunding it, and (b) they can establish the idea of some people having to pay for NHS services as a bridgehead for further erosion of the principle that it is free at the point of use.
Fast food chain McDonald's has opened 33 drive-through restaurants in the UK – but customers are being limited to spending £25 per car.
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
Confused as to how the £25 cap prevents covid spreading. Are they worried about people buying for 10 houses in one car trip and doing their own deliveroo style deliveries?
Diabetes is a big comorbidity factor. Is the £25 limit by McyD's them "doing their bit ?"
Surely it is as you say to prevent bulk ordering and the confusion/queues that creates
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
How very dare he attend an excellent school and university, have a high-flying career in finance and politics, and marry well into the bargain, all while barely breaking 40!
It's just not cricket in lefty land.
Timeo wiccamicos et dona ferentes. I think O Mosley was the last one to be so prominent in public life.
Fast food chain McDonald's has opened 33 drive-through restaurants in the UK – but customers are being limited to spending £25 per car.
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
Not for a family.
What ever happened to the dollar menu and the (un)happy meal?
Its still there.
If we go to McDonalds for a treat we can spend just under £25 for a family of 4 if we buy 4 meals, with 4 desserts.
When the kids were really young we used to use a Macdonald's drive through so I could keep driving and they could relieve the boredom of a long journey with a meal. I drove with the windows down because the smell made me nauseous and I'd rather go hungry. Thankfully the kids rapidly came to the same view. I am trying to imagine a world in which a Macdonald's is a "treat". I am not sure I want to.
Why shouldn't it be a treat?
And if you've not been there in a long time the menu is probably very different to what you're thinking of. We get our children carrot sticks instead of fries, I tend to get a grilled chicken wrap if I go. Why can't that be a treat, especially when you're on the road?
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
If they are working, they are already paying income tax, and National Insurance and VAT, which is how the NHS is funded. Why do they need to pay an additional immigration tax?
Because they are not residents or UK citizens. Our collective society pays for the NHS. We don't all chip in every year but over time most do. Migrant workers are visitors. Their tax contributions are irrelevant to the principle that if they want our societal benefits they have to pay for them.
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
How very dare he attend an excellent school and university, have a high-flying career in finance and politics, and marry well into the bargain, all while barely breaking 40!
It's just not cricket in lefty land.
So many couldn't have afforded to attend Winchester who I suspect are far more intelligent than this yes man, yet they won't get nearly as far because they weren't born into the right family and weren't lucky enough to get connections.
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
If they are working, they are already paying income tax, and National Insurance and VAT, which is how the NHS is funded. Why do they need to pay an additional immigration tax?
Because they are not residents or UK citizens. Our collective society pays for the NHS. We don't all chip in every year but over time most do. Migrant workers are visitors. Their tax contributions are irrelevant to the principle that if they want our societal benefits they have to pay for them.
There are immigrants who have lived here longer than I have been alive. They are not "visitors".
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
How very dare he attend an excellent school and university, have a high-flying career in finance and politics, and marry well into the bargain, all while barely breaking 40!
It's just not cricket in lefty land.
Timeo wiccamicos et dona ferentes. I think O Mosley was the last one to be so prominent in public life.
The poor Wykehamists have only ever had one PM. I suppose letting them have the limelight once every few centuries should be OK.
p.s. Surely you're not forgetting the great Seumas Milne?
Fast food chain McDonald's has opened 33 drive-through restaurants in the UK – but customers are being limited to spending £25 per car.
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
Not for a family.
What ever happened to the dollar menu and the (un)happy meal?
Its still there.
If we go to McDonalds for a treat we can spend just under £25 for a family of 4 if we buy 4 meals, with 4 desserts.
When the kids were really young we used to use a Macdonald's drive through so I could keep driving and they could relieve the boredom of a long journey with a meal. I drove with the windows down because the smell made me nauseous and I'd rather go hungry. Thankfully the kids rapidly came to the same view. I am trying to imagine a world in which a Macdonald's is a "treat". I am not sure I want to.
Why shouldn't it be a treat?
And if you've not been there in a long time the menu is probably very different to what you're thinking of. We get our children carrot sticks instead of fries, I tend to get a grilled chicken wrap if I go. Why can't that be a treat, especially when you're on the road?
Each to their own Philip. I hope your kids enjoy them. Millions obviously do.
Does any country allow you to immigrate without paying fees and taxes?
Again, they already pay taxes.
This is an additional immigrant tax, over and above all the other taxes they already pay.
Not even the US tried that one.
And my point is that it is unusual not to charge for immigrant visas. I suppose an alternative would be to abolish this additional charge and just increase the base cost of the visa by the same amount.
Migrant workers are visitors. Their tax contributions are irrelevant to the principle that if they want our societal benefits they have to pay for them.
So you want a visitor tax, as well as an immigrant tax.
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
How very dare he attend an excellent school and university, have a high-flying career in finance and politics, and marry well into the bargain, all while barely breaking 40!
It's just not cricket in lefty land.
Timeo wiccamicos et dona ferentes. I think O Mosley was the last one to be so prominent in public life.
And after a stint as a Conservative mp was quite the fan of left wing & populist policies. Didn't end well of course.
And my point is that it is unusual not to charge for immigrant visas. I suppose an alternative would be to abolish this additional charge and just increase the base cost of the visa by the same amount.
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
How very dare he attend an excellent school and university, have a high-flying career in finance and politics, and marry well into the bargain, all while barely breaking 40!
It's just not cricket in lefty land.
Timeo wiccamicos et dona ferentes. I think O Mosley was the last one to be so prominent in public life.
The poor Wykehamists have only ever had one PM. I suppose letting them have the limelight once every few centuries should be OK.
p.s. Surely you're not forgetting the great Seamus Milne?
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
If they are working, they are already paying income tax, and National Insurance and VAT, which is how the NHS is funded. Why do they need to pay an additional immigration tax?
Because they are not residents or UK citizens. Our collective society pays for the NHS. We don't all chip in every year but over time most do. Migrant workers are visitors. Their tax contributions are irrelevant to the principle that if they want our societal benefits they have to pay for them.
There are immigrants who have lived here longer than I have been alive. They are not "visitors".
Their arrival relative to the year of your birth is irrelevant.
More or Less worth a listen again. Comparison with Germany very interesting, but ran the testing story again. The deception here really is disgraceful.
They picked the 15/5 when 136,000 tests were done but they are not only including posted tests but also non diagnosed tests carried out by Uni and Research Labs (30,000) so useful for other reasons but not tests to determine if people have or don't have Covid. Also 2nd tests are not generally because the previous test needs verifying, but because say the test was dropped on the floor or the testee vomited on the first test. Also a spit and nasal test is counted as two.
Total people tested = 43,000 out of a quoted figure of 136,000
It really is an appalling deception.
I have never heard 'More or Less' get so annoyed in its fact checking.
Again not news.
On the very day the 100,000 test target was announced, they announced five strands of testing including diagnostic and yes non-diagnostic testing etc - someone from the media asked what was meant by the 100,000 and Hancock replied that it was "all tests from all strands".
So that some are non-diagnostic is not news. It was what was said would be counted literally on day one.
A dropped test counts as 2 tests? You are defending the indefensible
Not the dropped test no, that's ridiculous to log that, but the non-diagnostic is what I referred to.
Who's dropping tests though and why are they logging them? I'd doubt that's a high proportion, at least I'd hope not.
It appears that the 2nd tests are because of failures to take the test in the first place largely not because they are going back to retest, but because of vomiting on the test, dropping the test, etc because of the difficulty in taking the test. Also a throat and nasal test is counted as 2 tests! I don't know why some tests are single swabs and some are 2 swabs, but it is still 1 test in my book if the test consists of 2 swabs (nose and throat). The lab might do 2 tests but it is 1 person tested. The number of 2 tests on that day was 26,000 for all reasons.
I disagree, a swab test and a nasal test is 2 tests. It literally is 2 tests - one person, 2 tests.
Would you consider a swab test and a blood test to be just one test?
I said the lab will do 2 tests but only 1 person has been tested and the Govt has been misrepresenting this quite blatantly to massage figures and pointlessly so.
Most people don't look at the data, they look at the headline figure. It is interesting that professional statisticians and their professional bodies have been backing up the misrepresentation claims quite loudly.
People will refer to the fact that they have gone to the Doctors for a test, when that will consist of several blood samples, urine sample, swab, etc.
The only purpose of making it a plural is for stock or knowing the number of tests the labs carry out. As far as the individual is concerned they have been for a test.
Just the same as when you go for an xray. You will never have 1.
Yes multiple xrays, number of examinations/test = 1
Plus what about all the other stuff that took 136K to 43K.
You think the population by and large understands that 30K weren't used to see if specific individuals had Covid or not, regardless of what was put in the small print of the announcement.
There's no misrepesentation. The headline data the government sets out includes the number of people tested. They have that in the headline chart they send out.
If the media aren't reporting that well blame the media. The data is there and clear. Numbers of tests and number of people are reported simultaneously.
That is clearly nonsense as statisticians will tell you. The Royal Statistical Society President has written to the Government expressing its concerns quite forcefully about the Govt presentation of the data. And the data is not all there. More or Less has been asking the Govt for some of the figures for sometime which the Govt claims not to have. One for instance was the returns of postal tests. There was concern for sometime that these were being counted twice in the figure (eg when going out and coming back). The Govt couldn't initially confirm that they weren't. They have now, but still can't give the figure.
This has sod all to do with the media. I am listening to what is said by the minister. It is far from transparent. Most of the data supplied on More or Less for that day was not announced by the minister.
That's a different matter. That's an issue with how you count the number of tests, not the number of people. You were complaining about people being tested twice being reported as two in the headline figures but they're reported as one person in the headline figures.
That is not correct. I was complaining about a lot of stuff not just that as the thread shows. If it were just one item I wouldn't be annoyed as stuff happens.
Just because you understand what is being announced (although how, when much of the data is missing or not announced) does not mean the person on the Clapham Omnibus does and it is to the man on the Clapham Omnibus that it is aimed. You seem ideologically accepting when reputable independent persons criticise the presentation of the data (edit - I don't mean me of course!).
The trouble with this (as you should know as you liked a comment by me on the topic a little while ago) is that I was impressed by the Govt presentation of this pandemic. Not anymore. The playing around with the data to deceive to meet an artificial target was an appalling mistake and I can only assume for political advantage.
I agree of course that playing with data is bad.
I don't agree that reporting 2 tests on 1 person as 2 tests in the test column and 1 person in the person column is misleading.
I think if someone takes a test, drops it on the floor, then takes it again the test dropped on the floor should be binned and the data should be logged as 1 test.
Is that unreasonable?
If a person needs both a saliva test and a nasal test to get a result that is surely 1 test with 2 component parts, not 2 tests? Getting a situation where the number of people tested is now 1/3 of the number of tests is just ridiculous.
The really depressing thing is that even with all this jiggery pockery, England is still doing far better in testing than Scotland. How we get out of lockdown with insufficient, too slow testing and no ability to trace those who have been in contact with anyone who apparently had the virus a week ago is beyond me.
The test numbers are beginning to resemble the derivatives market at the height of the noughties madness. We have "the underlying" - a real and actual person who needs a test being tested - and then on top of this we have layers and layers of 2nd and 3rd order "synthetics", such as floating off the nose from the throat, the "have one get one free" special, the "dropped on the floor", the "lost in the post", etc etc, upshot being that the headline total is multiple times the base on which it is constructed. Rather like with the derivs, this is creative but it's dangerous.
We also now have the grand announcement that everyone over 5 years old with symptoms is "eligible for a test". Now does "eligible" here mean will get a test in a reasonable timeframe? Or does it mean eligible to apply for one? Because there's a big difference there. I predict a storm over this could be coming soon.
And my point is that it is unusual not to charge for immigrant visas. I suppose an alternative would be to abolish this additional charge and just increase the base cost of the visa by the same amount.
Visa is a one-time charge. Taxes are for life...
This isn't for life. If you have indefinite leave to remain you aren't paying.
And trust me, visa charges are not one-time things!
Dreadful performance by Johnson. The bluster worked against Corbyn but Starmer is so pin point precise Johnson looks exposed.
Did you watch a different PMQs?
The PB Tory brigade have assured us that Johnson bestrode the Commons stage like a Swiftian Gulliver clearing all before him whilst some faded grey bloke mumbled questions that everyone ignored...
Dreadful performance by Johnson. The bluster worked against Corbyn but Starmer is so pin point precise Johnson looks exposed.
Did you watch a different PMQs?
The PB Tory brigade have assured us that Johnson bestrode the Commons stage like a Swiftian Gulliver clearing all before him whilst some faded grey bloke mumbled questions that everyone ignored...
Dreadful performance by Johnson. The bluster worked against Corbyn but Starmer is so pin point precise Johnson looks exposed.
Did you watch a different PMQs?
The PB Tory brigade have assured us that Johnson bestrode the Commons stage like a Swiftian Gulliver clearing all before him whilst some faded grey bloke mumbled questions that everyone ignored...
I think you are overstating the reactions on here just a tiny bit.
To be blunt the answer to this is yes. If migrant workers coming to this country are to have free access to the NHS, which they should have, they need to pay the equivalent of an insurance premium up front. Why on earth shouldn't they?
Don't they already pay taxes - which last time I looked is how we fund the NHS. People of working age barely use the NHS compared to the retired, anyway, and so from an actuarially fair POV they're probably overpaying already. This whole thing is a non-issue dreamt up by the Tories so that (a) they can persuade gullible voters to believe the NHS is falling apart because of forinners and not because they are underfunding it, and (b) they can establish the idea of some people having to pay for NHS services as a bridgehead for further erosion of the principle that it is free at the point of use.
How many countries do you think you can turn up in as a non resident and get free medical care? Have you never bought travel insurance? This seems to me a much more realistic and fair way of sharing the cost of treatment of migrants than issuing big bills after they have had that broken arm set.
If Boris recovers fully you are going to see a Boris-Rishi government like no other conservative government as it moves straight onto labours ground, largely because they are both that way minded, but also out of necessity
The Snake's entire life has been a continuous and unrelenting fight for social justice and the disadvantaged. From Winchester to Oxford to Stanford to Goldman Fucking Sachs to choosing a billionaire for his father-in-law.
My opinion of him nose-dived when I saw him doing an online interview in front of what looked like a whole bookshelf of fake books.
How very dare he attend an excellent school and university, have a high-flying career in finance and politics, and marry well into the bargain, all while barely breaking 40!
It's just not cricket in lefty land.
Er, I only gently ridiculed him for having a bookshelf of fake books. I have known some lovely people who went to Winchester, attended Oxford University or Stanford, worked at Goldman Sachs, married someone whose family was minted or some combination of the above, although sadly for me I don't fall into any of those categories personally. FWIW I think Sunak is easily the most talented member of the Cabinet, admittedly not a high bar currently.
Comments
He does not look well
I expect his ratings and HMG to continue to fall to be honest
Whether anyone will care if Boris Johnson's new target is missed, we'll see.
Slaying Senior or somesuch.
I am not HYUFD, as he continual reminds me I voted Blair twice and as such I am no longer pure !!!!!
But what you do share is that you are incredibly annoying. Keep up the good work!
You don't know, do you?
Now I don't frequent such establishments, but more than £25, that sounds like a hell of a lot of McDonalds.
But the Quarantine bubble with a small group of non-household members is a good idea. How many people can we truly have intimate relationships with that engender the strongest levels of connectedness?
Dunbar numbers suggest that 3-5 is the range for how many can be our very closest friends, our clique. This might be a good place to start with the quarantine bubble, and expand out from there. Of course, within the household unit, each person will have a different clique, even if there is some overlap, and those in the quarantine bubble from outside will have clique members neither in that bubble nor in their household. So I don't think everyone in a household could all jump from lockdown to Quarantine Bubble for all your clique members in one go, but perhaps slowly expand it as the situation progresses.
And this expansion could continue. 12-15 is the deep trust number or sympathy group, which is the number of people from whom you can accept a small amount of betrayal without severing ties. That would be the next level but by this stage, there would not be many degrees of separation between everyone in the population.
FWIW, the other Dunbar numbers are:
50, the typical overnight camp size among traditional hunter-gatherers or the familial grouping, the band
150, the the number of people for whom you can know something about them and their capabilities, i.e. for whom you can manage expectations = the friendship group. Dunbar's original research
500, the number of people with whom we can remain nodding acquaintances = the tribe
1500, the number of people for whom we can put a name to the face = the community. This is probably the underlying reason why army units and business divisions tend to be this size.
The really depressing thing is that even with all this jiggery pockery, England is still doing far better in testing than Scotland. How we get out of lockdown with insufficient, too slow testing and no ability to trace those who have been in contact with anyone who apparently had the virus a week ago is beyond me.
Clever but not intelligent looks the most promising candidate from the data to me. But conceptually not really a starter. Maybe Kant was right was right and you can't think sensibly about causes outside our experience.
More than 700 have been bought across Whitehall despite concerns Chinese spooks could hack the platform and steal state secrets.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/government-departments-bought-hundreds-zoom-22056562
If we go to McDonalds for a treat we can spend just under £25 for a family of 4 if we buy 4 meals, with 4 desserts.
Because, it might have been, might not have been, but it isn't a problem, as they clearly knew they had the antibody test approvals for 2 different products, with both companies saying they can make 100,000s a week for the UK, so it seems unlikely to be an issue.
Did any of the others you mention do that doubt it but you still fail in the task not to use the letters C o r b y & n in almost every post.
Sad really.
https://unherd.com/thepost/german-virologist-finds-covid-fatality-rate-of-0-24-0-36/
https://21stcenturywire.com/2020/05/19/professor-karol-sikora-fear-is-more-deadly-than-covid-19/
and less to a man who
apparently got foot & mouth and swine flu wrong
broke his own lockdown
may be unhealthily close to Gates and vaccine makers.
Or, perish the thought, am I too cynical?
Not sure of the exact prices but approximately.
Happy Meal ~ £3.60 x2
Adult Meals ~ £5.60 x2
Muffins or other desserts ~ £1.20 x4
Definitely only something we get as a treat not an every day meal.
It's just not cricket in lefty land.
And if you've not been there in a long time the menu is probably very different to what you're thinking of. We get our children carrot sticks instead of fries, I tend to get a grilled chicken wrap if I go. Why can't that be a treat, especially when you're on the road?
This is an additional immigrant tax, over and above all the other taxes they already pay.
Not even the US tried that one.
It's just not realistic in righty land
Never underestimate a lawyer.
p.s. Surely you're not forgetting the great Seumas Milne?
We had 2 parcels delivered - we were expecting 2 parcels
Wife opens them - it becomes clear that actually one of those isn't for us.
Checks label - its for next door - but the guy who delivered it did not say that, he just said "parcel for you"
Packaging now ripped so its clear we opened it
contents are one "geeky schoolgirl" outfit....................
A bit early for Halloween and on a hunch guessing no fancy dress parties incoming........
How to hand it over in least embarrassing way for both parties ..........
We also now have the grand announcement that everyone over 5 years old with symptoms is "eligible for a test". Now does "eligible" here mean will get a test in a reasonable timeframe? Or does it mean eligible to apply for one? Because there's a big difference there. I predict a storm over this could be coming soon.
One would have thought Scott might have considered that the US doesn't have an NHS before asking why there was no NHS surcharge.
"Source close to Michael Ball saying Captain Tom Moore 'difficult to work with' "
...seeing as Boris has secure him a Knighthood
And trust me, visa charges are not one-time things!
The PB Tory brigade have assured us that Johnson bestrode the Commons stage like a Swiftian Gulliver clearing all before him whilst some faded grey bloke mumbled questions that everyone ignored...
That place is best avoided.