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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The front pages after Dom’s big day

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited May 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The front pages after Dom’s big day

One telling reaction has come from Mark Wallace of ConHome under the headline “I admire Dominic Cummings – but he needs to resign now“. He notes:

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited May 2020
    From a leftie point of view I'm delighted if Cummings survives because Brand Boris is now forever tarnished.

    Oooh, first again!
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I'm looking forward to the first opinion polls following Boris' Bonkers Bank Holiday.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    edited May 2020

    I'm looking forward to the first opinion polls following Boris' Bonkers Bank Holiday.

    I doubt we will such much movement. There have to be two parts to such a shift: dissatisfaction with the government plus confidence in the alternative. As things stand, most voters seem to be seeing Starmer as a separate entity to the Labour party. It will take him and his team more than a few weeks to undo the damage done to the party's standing over the last few years. However, Tory lies, arrogance and incompetence are going to be a significant help. The longer Cummings sticks around, the better from that perspective.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    edited May 2020
    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    This will not cut through as it is too technical and cannot easily be turned into an accessible news story, but Cummings is clearly a compusive liar:
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1265011724111011845
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,557
    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,557
    Full genome viral sequences inform patterns of SARS-CoV-2 spread into and within Israel
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.21.20104521v1
    Full genome sequences are increasingly used to track the geographic spread and transmission dynamics of viral pathogens. Here, with a focus on Israel, we sequenced 212 SARS-CoV-2 sequences and use them to perform a comprehensive analysis to trace the origins and spread of the virus. A phylogenetic analysis including thousands of globally sampled sequences allowed us to infer multiple independent introductions into Israel, followed by local transmission. Returning travelers from the U.S. contributed dramatically more to viral spread relative to their proportion in incoming infected travelers. Using phylodynamic analysis, we estimated that the basic reproduction number of the virus was initially around ~2.0-2.6, dropping by two-thirds following the implementation of social distancing measures. A comparison between reported and model-estimated case numbers indicated high levels of transmission heterogeneity in SARS-CoV-2 spread, with between 1-10% of infected individuals resulting in 80% of secondary infections. Overall, our findings underscore the ability of this virus to efficiently transmit between and within countries, as well as demonstrate the effectiveness of social distancing measures for reducing its spread....
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,634
    Clear that the Mail is listening more to their readers than the Tories. Cummings will survive this but Johnson is forever diminished - to burn this much political capital on an aide is very telling.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,634
    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977
    One thing that that struck me, TBH, on thinking about it, was how Cummings panicked under pressure, and fled 'home'. He made it clear that, as far as he, and presumably his wife, were concerned there was no-one in London they could trust with their child and the only place where they and their child would be safe was with Mum, Dad and his sister.
    A puzzling thought too; surely he and his wife must have discussed what they would do in the event of infection. People are in and out of Downing Street all the time. I'm surprised too, that apparently no-one in that sensitive work situation was tested, especially after one, at least, junior minister was infected.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    Cummings did what he thought was best for his family while the government he is part of told everyone else to do what was best for the country. Millions complied and for tens of thousands that meant unimaginably tough decisions and immensely painful sacrifices. That's why people are angry and it's why they will not forget.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105
    Nigelb said:
    Laughed at by Trump's America. Classic Dom.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,557
    Hugely detailed report on a hospital outbreak in South Africa, about a mass outbreak from a single infected patient.
    In this case, the routes of transmission were almost certainly in the main contaminated surfaces rather than respiratory.
    (Possibly of interest to @Foxy )

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1264922133722886144
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    One thing that that struck me, TBH, on thinking about it, was how Cummings panicked under pressure, and fled 'home'. He made it clear that, as far as he, and presumably his wife, were concerned there was no-one in London they could trust with their child and the only place where they and their child would be safe was with Mum, Dad and his sister.
    A puzzling thought too; surely he and his wife must have discussed what they would do in the event of infection. People are in and out of Downing Street all the time. I'm surprised too, that apparently no-one in that sensitive work situation was tested, especially after one, at least, junior minister was infected.

    If tests were being used on people like Cummings, I'm sure there would have been outrage.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105

    Cummings did what he thought was best for his family while the government he is part of told everyone else to do what was best for the country. Millions complied and for tens of thousands that meant unimaginably tough decisions and immensely painful sacrifices. That's why people are angry and it's why they will not forget.

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    edited May 2020

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,557
    New Corp busted for pushing a dodgy dossier about the Wuhan lab in Australia:
    https://twitter.com/MackayIM/status/1265088171907272704
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930

    Cummings did what he thought was best for his family while the government he is part of told everyone else to do what was best for the country. Millions complied and for tens of thousands that meant unimaginably tough decisions and immensely painful sacrifices. That's why people are angry and it's why they will not forget.

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    He did what you would expect a member of the elite to do. The important point is that so many people have noticed. And they have seen the PM offer him full support, thus condoning not only his actions but his lies. That will matter. Those who think this will all blow over because the next election is not for four years may end up disappointed. The people versus the elite narrative is now done for.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,557

    Cummings did what he thought was best for his family while the government he is part of told everyone else to do what was best for the country. Millions complied and for tens of thousands that meant unimaginably tough decisions and immensely painful sacrifices. That's why people are angry and it's why they will not forget.

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    He did what you would expect a member of the elite to do. The important point is that so many people have noticed. And they have seen the PM offer him full support, thus condoning not only his actions but his lies. That will matter. Those who think this will all blow over because the next election is not for four years may end up disappointed. The people versus the elite narrative is now done for.

    Not just noticed; had our noses rubbed in it.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    edited May 2020

    Cummings did what he thought was best for his family while the government he is part of told everyone else to do what was best for the country. Millions complied and for tens of thousands that meant unimaginably tough decisions and immensely painful sacrifices. That's why people are angry and it's why they will not forget.

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    He did what you would expect a member of the elite to do. The important point is that so many people have noticed. And they have seen the PM offer him full support, thus condoning not only his actions but his lies. That will matter. Those who think this will all blow over because the next election is not for four years may end up disappointed. The people versus the elite narrative is now done for.

    People vs elite will play well for Labour next time, particularly in the northern wall area.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105
    Number 43 in the occasional series, Brexit supporters gradually figuring out what Brexit was always about and realising they don't like it so much after all.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8351165/Tories-rebel-Trade-Secretary-Liz-Truss-plots-betray-UK-farmers-Trump-deal.html
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    I won't be paying £3,500 a season to go to the Emirates!
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    I suspect a little of both.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    edited May 2020
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    I won't be paying £3,500 a season to go to the Emirates!
    They would need 80% of existing attendees to agree with you.

    And for Prem clubs it doesnt really matter. They can just not renew 4 or 5 players contracts and play youth players or cheaper ones as backup next season and be fine.

    Its the football league clubs, where season tickets might be £300 going up to £750 for the few who would get to see it.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
    Surely the data was backdated? Don't really see your point therefore.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    I won't be paying £3,500 a season to go to the Emirates!
    They would need 80% of existing attendees to agree with you.
    And 20% to disagree!

    Remember, going to a football match is a social event. Remove the social part and the attraction diminishes greatly.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    edited May 2020

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?

    I am sure Cummings knows plenty. Anyone high up in and aroud the Conservative party and the media does. But Johnson's dependence on Cummings is separate to that. He is a lazy man who is not interested in detail. Cummings, to be fair to him, is neither. Johnson needs someone to do the work.

  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
    Surely the data was backdated? Don't really see your point therefore.
    Its a daily tracker. There is no data in there about attendance at said events.

    How can they tell whether Liverpool had more cases because there was a super spreader at a nightclub, a school, a church or a football match?

    They cant.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    I don't buy the blackmail angle myself. If it were true we really are living in dark times.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    I don't buy the blackmail angle myself. If it were true we really are living in dark times.
    Its not as if the PM couldnt just turn around and say, well I sacked him for lying because thats the view of the country, why believe a word they say about anything else?

    Look at the quality of the cabinet, that is the reason Cummings is indispensable. As soon as the crisis is stable, we need the return of the better Tory MPs to cabinet, or at least replace the dimwits with the new intake and see how they get on.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited May 2020

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
    Surely the data was backdated? Don't really see your point therefore.
    Its a daily tracker. There is no data in there about attendance at said events.

    How can they tell whether Liverpool had more cases because there was a super spreader at a nightclub, a school, a church or a football match?

    They cant.
    Clusters, data, statistics, spikes ... it's not difficult.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    edited May 2020

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
    Surely the data was backdated? Don't really see your point therefore.
    Its a daily tracker. There is no data in there about attendance at said events.

    How can they tell whether Liverpool had more cases because there was a super spreader at a nightclub, a school, a church or a football match?

    They cant.
    I think you're talking complete rubbish.
    I use the app and have done from the start. It asks me my symptoms on that day. Never anything about my symptoms on any previous day let alone two weeks before the app started.

    Certainly their public data starts on the day the app started 29 March:

    https://covid.joinzoe.com/data#levels-over-time

    Cheltenham was 10-13 March, Liverpool Atletico was 11 March.

    The story is a complete guess, no data behind it.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,160
    Cummings is the centre of attention. All his Christmases have come at once.

    Meanwhile back in the real world Wales Online compare the desolate Bank Holiday beaches in Wales to standing room only in Bournemouth and Brighton.

    Absolute madness! And the starting pistol was fired from Downing Street.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417

    Cummings is the centre of attention. All his Christmases have come at once.

    Meanwhile back in the real world Wales Online compare the desolate Bank Holiday beaches in Wales to standing room only in Bournemouth and Brighton.

    Absolute madness! And the starting pistol was fired from Downing Street.


    As seen as hardly anyone is getting covid-19 now , the madness is on the part of Wales
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,312
    edited May 2020

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    Well, we don't know but considering the political capital Johnson is spending on him we can surmise reasonably enough that DC has something on the PM.

    After a good nite's sleep and a break from this fiasco I revisit it this morning satisfied now that Cummings just told a whole pack of lies. The Castle story just didn't bear any kind of examination and served only to make the less gullible among us question everything more sceptically.

    Just how ill was his wife? How ill was he? What happened to the kid and what was the diagnosis on him? Why did they accompany him to hospital when they allegedly had both been affected? Did they really make those journeys without normal breaks? Did the wife drive, and if not, why not?

    He's a liar and he's taking us all for mugs.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
    Surely the data was backdated? Don't really see your point therefore.
    Its a daily tracker. There is no data in there about attendance at said events.

    How can they tell whether Liverpool had more cases because there was a super spreader at a nightclub, a school, a church or a football match?

    They cant.
    I think you're talking complete rubbish.
    I use the app and have done from the start. It asks me my symptoms on that day. Never anything about my symptoms on any previous day let alone two weeks before the app started.

    Certainly their public data starts on the day the app started 29 March:

    https://covid.joinzoe.com/data#levels-over-time

    Cheltenham was 10-13 March, Liverpool Atletico was 11 March.

    The story is a complete guess, no data behind it.
    Anyway , the thinking then (quite rightly imo) was to go for herd immunity and control rather than cut off the virus to keep NHS capacity. Cheltenham (I went for a couple of days) and the football gave huge numbers of people great pleasure and these things make life worth living for a lot of people. Life is not just about avoiding risk of death.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    edited May 2020

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    Well, we don't know but considering the political capital Johnson is spending on him we can surmise reasonably enough that DC has something on the PM.

    After a good nite's sleep and a break from this fiasco I revisit it this morning satisfied now that Cummings just told a whole pack of lies. The Castle story just didn't bear any kind of examination and served only to make the less gullible amongst us ask start questioning everything sceptically.

    Just how ill was his wife? How ill was he? What happened to the kid and what was the diagnosis on him? Why did they accompany him to hospital when they allegedly had both been affected? Did they really make those journeys without normal breaks? Did the wife drive, and if not, why not?

    He's a liar and he's taking us all for mugs.
    Indeed. To believe he has not broken the law throughout you have to believe his answers in an acca of about 10 questions, where on each one his answer is somewhere between unlikely and incredible.

    To believe in the acca is being wilfully blind.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I just wonder whether they decided to have a family holiday together back in the part of the world where they come from.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    Well, we don't know but considering the political capital Johnson is spending on him we can surmise reasonably enough that DC has something on the PM.

    After a good nite's sleep and a break from this fiasco I revisit it this morning satisfied now that Cummings just told a whole pack of lies. The Castle story just didn't bear any kind of examination and served only to make the less gullible among us questioning everything more sceptically.

    Just how ill was his wife? How ill was he? What happened to the kid and what was the diagnosis on him? Why did they accompany him to hospital when they allegedly had both been affected? Did they really make those journeys without normal breaks? Did the wife drive, and if not, why not?

    He's a liar and he's taking us all for mugs.
    The whole eyesight thing is just inexplicable.
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    I think I preferred the GSK angle. Can you lot see if that one has legs, please?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Punter, not necessarily. It's entirely possible the PM feels he can't govern without Cummings. Or that Boris Johnson's ill judgement is just making a repeat appearance.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,634

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
    Which is when the spikes were identified. Heard of “incubation period”?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Lying liars and the lies they tell. 🤷‍♂️
  • Options
    SaltireSaltire Posts: 525

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    If football clubs seriously tried to put their ticket prices up by even half that amount there would be an outcry from fans and rightly so.
    I suspect that the outcome for many football clubs is that they are going to have to cut costs significantly for the next couple years to survive and that means that the players are going to find that their wages are going to be cut, and in some cases fairly drastically.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    Well, we don't know but considering the political capital Johnson is spending on him we can surmise reasonably enough that DC has something on the PM.

    After a good nite's sleep and a break from this fiasco I revisit it this morning satisfied now that Cummings just told a whole pack of lies. The Castle story just didn't bear any kind of examination and served only to make the less gullible among us questioning everything more sceptically.

    Just how ill was his wife? How ill was he? What happened to the kid and what was the diagnosis on him? Why did they accompany him to hospital when they allegedly had both been affected? Did they really make those journeys without normal breaks? Did the wife drive, and if not, why not?

    He's a liar and he's taking us all for mugs.
    The whole eyesight thing is just inexplicable.
    I can imagine going out for a short drive to see if I did feel OK; in somewhat similar circumstances, I've done that. However I'd have another driver with me....... in my case I took a driving instructor friend ...... and I certainly wouldn't have a child as a passenger. He went to the family 'estate' because there were family members who could and would, and would probably be very happy to, look after the child for a while.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    Well, we don't know but considering the political capital Johnson is spending on him we can surmise reasonably enough that DC has something on the PM.

    After a good nite's sleep and a break from this fiasco I revisit it this morning satisfied now that Cummings just told a whole pack of lies. The Castle story just didn't bear any kind of examination and served only to make the less gullible among us question everything more sceptically.

    Just how ill was his wife? How ill was he? What happened to the kid and what was the diagnosis on him? Why did they accompany him to hospital when they allegedly had both been affected? Did they really make those journeys without normal breaks? Did the wife drive, and if not, why not?

    He's a liar and he's taking us all for mugs.
    What’s more amazing is that given the very damaging admissions he made in the lies, it is hard to imagine the truth could have been worse for him.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417
    edited May 2020
    Cummings likes thinking everything through as a "war game" . Logically for him the position is to not resign and fight (both with press and internally ) to keep his role. For him , whats the downside of this? Well nothing really as he is the sort of person that can handle abuse, calls for him to go etc . He might even relish it in some way . Upside - well he keeps an interesting and powerful role .

    Cummings is also a committed libertarian (if not anarchist) . Therefore, he views the world from an individual perspective. Logically he would therefore do what is best for him . With the justification (he needs this to justify his belief system )that what is best for him is also best for the country or at least the tories. His "confident " personality means he can make this justification
  • Options
    SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 597
    If you were worried about your eyesight not being up to a lengthy journey, would you
    a) drive in daylight? or
    b) drive overnight arriving home at 3 am.?

    Also, people who have had the virus say it leaves them feeling weak and tired. so, would you do a lengthy drive after breakfast and a good night's sleep or last thing at night?

    Having a child myself and undertaken car journeys late at night in the past , I don't buy the line that they went at night so the kid could sleep. Yes, he might sleep but equally he might become overtired and irritable and create a distraction for the driver (who is likely to be tired from the virus and have concerns about his eyesight, according to this yarn).

    The whole thing stinks more that a tank of rotting fish.
  • Options
    SockySocky Posts: 404

    People vs elite will play well for Labour next time, particularly in the northern wall area.

    Out-of-touch left-wing MSM versus working guy trying to move money and power to the north.

    That might play even better.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Cummings is a posho and should be sacked. Like many poshos he has an inbred sense of entitlement. That's why he can't see why he should say sorry or resign. Don't forget the press share this sense of entitlement, They are predominantly public school too, as is BoJo.

    However, the press have as well as this, a feeling that they should always set the agenda because they are special people, knowing instinctively what is right or wrong. As Jim Al-Khalili wrote, they don't do uncertainty, and being Arts graduates, they wallow in their ignorance of science.

    They can't stop themselves.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    edited May 2020
    Saltire said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    If football clubs seriously tried to put their ticket prices up by even half that amount there would be an outcry from fans and rightly so.
    I suspect that the outcome for many football clubs is that they are going to have to cut costs significantly for the next couple years to survive and that means that the players are going to find that their wages are going to be cut, and in some cases fairly drastically.
    In League Two, if you halved some younger players wages, you would be breaking minimum wage laws.

    At the Premiership level yes of course, the wage inflation of the past 30 years is over for a while and clubs will have smaller squads on lower wages.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,160

    Cummings is the centre of attention. All his Christmases have come at once.

    Meanwhile back in the real world Wales Online compare the desolate Bank Holiday beaches in Wales to standing room only in Bournemouth and Brighton.

    Absolute madness! And the starting pistol was fired from Downing Street.


    As seen as hardly anyone is getting covid-19 now , the madness is on the part of Wales
    Was the closure of Weston Super Mare Hospital due to a Coronavirus spike yesterday just an illusion?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    SandraMc said:

    If you were worried about your eyesight not being up to a lengthy journey, would you
    a) drive in daylight? or
    b) drive overnight arriving home at 3 am.?

    Also, people who have had the virus say it leaves them feeling weak and tired. so, would you do a lengthy drive after breakfast and a good night's sleep or last thing at night?

    Having a child myself and undertaken car journeys late at night in the past , I don't buy the line that they went at night so the kid could sleep. Yes, he might sleep but equally he might become overtired and irritable and create a distraction for the driver (who is likely to be tired from the virus and have concerns about his eyesight, according to this yarn).

    The whole thing stinks more that a tank of rotting fish.

    Cummings could quite easily have got a government car to pick him up. If he was over the virus and had done his quaratine - as he claimed - then he could also have got a train. Failing all that, his wife could have driven. He was lying about the trip to Barnard Castle. That's it.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,112

    Cummings likes thinking everything through as a "war game" . Logically for him the position is to not resign and fight (both with press and internally ) to keep his role. For him , whats the downside of this? Well nothing really as he is the sort of person that can handle abuse, calls for him to go etc . He might even relish it in some way . Upside - well he keeps an interesting and powerful role .

    The upside is he now knows who is enemies are. There will be plenty gunning for him who forgot to dig two graves.

    I'm waiting for Guido to break the story of how one of his sternest critics broke lockdown to meet with their drug dealer. That will be delicious.

    Meanwhile, when everyone finally gets bored of Cummings, the shops will be opening and the numbers of daily dead down to double figures. Job done.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    No individual should be more important than the team they play for. All that's happened is that Johnson has shown that he can't govern without this bloke. That impression will remain for as long as he remains in place. This specific issue will subside somewhat but the jibes about the Cummings Government will haunt Johnson for as long as Cummings remains.

    The impunity of the lying is the thing that gets me. The Barnard Castle story is cearly a load of old pony and it now turns out that Cummings was also telling porkies when he claimed he had been warning about the dangers of a coronavirus pandemic. Taking people for mugs is never a great idea.

    It’s not about Cummings or what he did anymore. That could have been dealt with easily. It’s about (a) the appalling way this was handled from Friday onwards (“Mr Cummings accepts that, while he broke no laws, his trip was not appropriate, and has apologised” would have killed the story).(b) the impression that Johnson can’t operate without him (not exactly a Churchillian look) and (c) the anger, which largely results from (a), that has erupted in large parts of Middle England and big chunks of the Tory Party - that anger will not last, but neither will it be replaced by a generous forgiveness, rather a sullen annoyance or resentment.

    Note Starmer has still not explicitly called for Cummings resignation, his take is that “if he were Prime Minister” he would have fired him. That puts the onus not on Cummings behaviour in going to County Durham - but on Johnson’s behaviour in not dismissing Cummings. That’s telling. The attack will be that Johnson is too weak to fire a man who has caused so much embarrassment to the government. As I said yesterday it is legal, and commonplace, to dismiss someone for reputational reasons (esp in politics), whatever the rights and wrongs of the individual’s actions. Why can’t Johnson do that? His supporters will say loyalty and morality. His detractors will say weakness. We’ll see who wins out. Personally I don’t see charges of “loyalty and morality”:sticking to Boris Johnson.

    Of course, in the end this is all about Johnson and his total dependence on Cummings.

    Is Johnson dependent on Cummings? Or somehow in hock to him? What does Cummings know, perchance as a result of his wife working with Johnson at The Spectator?
    Well, we don't know but considering the political capital Johnson is spending on him we can surmise reasonably enough that DC has something on the PM.

    After a good nite's sleep and a break from this fiasco I revisit it this morning satisfied now that Cummings just told a whole pack of lies. The Castle story just didn't bear any kind of examination and served only to make the less gullible among us questioning everything more sceptically.

    Just how ill was his wife? How ill was he? What happened to the kid and what was the diagnosis on him? Why did they accompany him to hospital when they allegedly had both been affected? Did they really make those journeys without normal breaks? Did the wife drive, and if not, why not?

    He's a liar and he's taking us all for mugs.
    The whole eyesight thing is just inexplicable.
    Leaving aside the fact that he should not, regardless of what he thought, have been in Durham in the first place, I reckon if he had said, quite simply, ‘it was the missus’ birthday so we went for a short trip making sure we were well away from other people,’ that would have been accepted. Because, actually, lots of people will have done that. There were plenty of cars on Cannock Chase that weekend, and few will have been from Rugeley, Stafford or Lichfield. Yes, it’s a breach of the rules, but it’s a fairly technical one that nobody with any sense gets worked up about. It’s not like, say breaking quarantine to drive the length of England or to accompany a child to hospital.

    But saying he drove there to *test his eyesight*? Simple madness. Nobody is going to give him a free pass on that.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    SandraMc said:

    If you were worried about your eyesight not being up to a lengthy journey, would you
    a) drive in daylight? or
    b) drive overnight arriving home at 3 am.?

    Also, people who have had the virus say it leaves them feeling weak and tired. so, would you do a lengthy drive after breakfast and a good night's sleep or last thing at night?

    Having a child myself and undertaken car journeys late at night in the past , I don't buy the line that they went at night so the kid could sleep. Yes, he might sleep but equally he might become overtired and irritable and create a distraction for the driver (who is likely to be tired from the virus and have concerns about his eyesight, according to this yarn).

    The whole thing stinks more that a tank of rotting fish.

    I would get a driver!

    If I was the second most important man in govt I would get a driver or a helicopter!
  • Options
    SockySocky Posts: 404

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    Putting your family before the state is indeed a Conservative trait, and not something their supporters would see as a problem.

    I suspect people who would never vote for Boris are now even more sure they will not vote for him.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    I just wonder whether they decided to have a family holiday together back in the part of the world where they come from.

    It’s even easier than that. They just wanted a nice house with a garden to lock down in. Who wouldn’t?

    The catch is (1) by no definition is that a ‘reasonable excuse,’ especially not when the household was in quarantine (2) many thousands of others in much less fortunate positions than the Cummings family have just had to stay where they are in small unventilated flats and suck it up, so the unfairness grates and (3) he’s plainly lying about why he did it.

    And yet he doesn’t realise this doesn’t cut it.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    Prof Tim Spector tells BBC (R4) that the COVID app identifies two spikes related to Cheltenham and the Merseyside match - interview at 07.50.

    Pretty amazing seeing as the app wasnt launched until over 2 weeks later.
    Which is when the spikes were identified. Heard of “incubation period”?
    Yes the average is 5 days so about 17 March, still twelve days before they started gathering any data.

    It is possible Liverpool and Cheltenham were showing higher rates of infection than other places in April, and that is shown in their app.

    It is impossible to deduce the reasons for that from the data in the app.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,634
    Well, we’re not talking about Care Homes, testing or Track n’Trace, are we.....
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417

    Saltire said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    If football clubs seriously tried to put their ticket prices up by even half that amount there would be an outcry from fans and rightly so.
    I suspect that the outcome for many football clubs is that they are going to have to cut costs significantly for the next couple years to survive and that means that the players are going to find that their wages are going to be cut, and in some cases fairly drastically.
    In League Two, if you halved some younger players wages, you would be breaking minimum wage laws.

    At the Premiership level yes of course, the wage inflation of the past 30 years is over for a while and clubs will have smaller squads on lower wages.
    Not if you go part-time (for halving wages) - Its not as if pro footballers need to work 35 hrs a week ( i doubt they do )
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    ydoethur said:

    I just wonder whether they decided to have a family holiday together back in the part of the world where they come from.

    It’s even easier than that. They just wanted a nice house with a garden to lock down in. Who wouldn’t?

    The catch is (1) by no definition is that a ‘reasonable excuse,’ especially not when the household was in quarantine (2) many thousands of others in much less fortunate positions than the Cummings family have just had to stay where they are in small unventilated flats and suck it up, so the unfairness grates and (3) he’s plainly lying about why he did it.

    And yet he doesn’t realise this doesn’t cut it.
    Sadly it is going to cut it, for just enough.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,901

  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    Socky said:

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    Putting your family before the state is indeed a Conservative trait, and not something their supporters would see as a problem.

    I suspect people who would never vote for Boris are now even more sure they will not vote for him.
    The PM asked us to put the country ahead of ourselves and our families. That is the whole point!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    ydoethur said:

    I just wonder whether they decided to have a family holiday together back in the part of the world where they come from.

    It’s even easier than that. They just wanted a nice house with a garden to lock down in. Who wouldn’t?

    The catch is (1) by no definition is that a ‘reasonable excuse,’ especially not when the household was in quarantine (2) many thousands of others in much less fortunate positions than the Cummings family have just had to stay where they are in small unventilated flats and suck it up, so the unfairness grates and (3) he’s plainly lying about why he did it.

    And yet he doesn’t realise this doesn’t cut it.
    Sadly it is going to cut it, for just enough.
    I thought about these ‘nobody’ claims I made, and realised they are not true. Tribal loyalists will. Bluest Blue, for example, sees no difference between driving a few miles across London to deliver medicines and having a chat with parents in the garden and driving an infectious person all the length of England.

    The question is, will it buy off Tory MPs, who have obviously been pretty shaken by the reaction?
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    Saltire said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    If football clubs seriously tried to put their ticket prices up by even half that amount there would be an outcry from fans and rightly so.
    I suspect that the outcome for many football clubs is that they are going to have to cut costs significantly for the next couple years to survive and that means that the players are going to find that their wages are going to be cut, and in some cases fairly drastically.
    In League Two, if you halved some younger players wages, you would be breaking minimum wage laws.

    At the Premiership level yes of course, the wage inflation of the past 30 years is over for a while and clubs will have smaller squads on lower wages.
    Not if you go part-time (for halving wages) - Its not as if pro footballers need to work 35 hrs a week ( i doubt they do )
    You might be right on hours worked, probably depends how you count travel and mandated resting time. But £30k isnt an uncommon wage in League Two at all, so cutting back to £15k would still be an extremely drastic cut.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    Socky said:

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    Putting your family before the state is indeed a Conservative trait, and not something their supporters would see as a problem.

    I suspect people who would never vote for Boris are now even more sure they will not vote for him.
    The PM asked us to put the country ahead of ourselves and our families. That is the whole point!
    Ask not what your country can do for you. Instead, ask how you can think of a ridiculous pretext for driving the whole length of the country while in quarantine.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,160

    Cummings likes thinking everything through as a "war game" . Logically for him the position is to not resign and fight (both with press and internally ) to keep his role. For him , whats the downside of this? Well nothing really as he is the sort of person that can handle abuse, calls for him to go etc . He might even relish it in some way . Upside - well he keeps an interesting and powerful role .

    The upside is he now knows who is enemies are. There will be plenty gunning for him who forgot to dig two graves.

    I'm waiting for Guido to break the story of how one of his sternest critics broke lockdown to meet with their drug dealer. That will be delicious.

    Meanwhile, when everyone finally gets bored of Cummings, the shops will be opening and the numbers of daily dead down to double figures. Job done.
    Of your final paragraph, I hope you are right. I suspect you are not
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    edited May 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I just wonder whether they decided to have a family holiday together back in the part of the world where they come from.

    It’s even easier than that. They just wanted a nice house with a garden to lock down in. Who wouldn’t?

    The catch is (1) by no definition is that a ‘reasonable excuse,’ especially not when the household was in quarantine (2) many thousands of others in much less fortunate positions than the Cummings family have just had to stay where they are in small unventilated flats and suck it up, so the unfairness grates and (3) he’s plainly lying about why he did it.

    And yet he doesn’t realise this doesn’t cut it.
    Sadly it is going to cut it, for just enough.
    I thought about these ‘nobody’ claims I made, and realised they are not true. Tribal loyalists will. Bluest Blue, for example, sees no difference between driving a few miles across London to deliver medicines and having a chat with parents in the garden and driving an infectious person all the length of England.

    The question is, will it buy off Tory MPs, who have obviously been pretty shaken by the reaction?
    They will be furious. For how long, as always, probably depends on the polls, and if there is anyone better plausible enough to replace him.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    DougSeal said:


    Was this teacher perhaps then speaking figuratively, and actually we should look for Cummings in Bishop Auckland?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Punter, not necessarily. It's entirely possible the PM feels he can't govern without Cummings. Or that Boris Johnson's ill judgement is just making a repeat appearance.

    Morning all,

    Seems to me that yes, Johnson does feel he can't function in government without Cummings.

    Being PM is hard and a ton of hassle from 5am or 6am until late at night every day.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,901
    ydoethur said:

    The question is, will it buy off Tory MPs, who have obviously been pretty shaken by the reaction?

    We need polling
  • Options
    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040
    Just reading through the comments. Almost universal condemnation of Cummings' press conference yesterday. PB has come together as one for once. ...Or maybe the right-wing loons haven't woken up yet? It's only the plebs that get up early getting ready for work I guess
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,971

    Well, we’re not talking about Care Homes, testing or Track n’Trace, are we.....

    Track n' Trace is next weeks disaster - as it won't be ready in time for June 1st although Boris promised it would be even after being given the option to back down.
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    This is why we need sport back - to save us from FBPE mongs analysing car journeys on twitter and PB.com.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,112
    ydoethur said:

    Socky said:

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    Putting your family before the state is indeed a Conservative trait, and not something their supporters would see as a problem.

    I suspect people who would never vote for Boris are now even more sure they will not vote for him.
    The PM asked us to put the country ahead of ourselves and our families. That is the whole point!
    Ask not what your country can do for you. Instead, ask how you can think of a ridiculous pretext for driving the whole length of the country while in quarantine.
    A ridiculous pretext?
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    edited May 2020
    eek said:

    Well, we’re not talking about Care Homes, testing or Track n’Trace, are we.....

    Track n' Trace is next weeks disaster - as it won't be ready in time for June 1st although Boris promised it would be even after being given the option to back down.
    He will just redefine the words track and trace. Its been trialled and tested successfully on the words "alert, never, checks, border" over the last year.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    On Dom's lack of apology and hubristic mien, it's surely to be expected. All Christians recite the Lord's prayer which refers to "Thy king Dom Cum.. " It laters says ".. we forgive those who trespass against us". Perhaps the ire of the C of E bishopry is misdirected.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    ydoethur said:

    Socky said:

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    Putting your family before the state is indeed a Conservative trait, and not something their supporters would see as a problem.

    I suspect people who would never vote for Boris are now even more sure they will not vote for him.
    The PM asked us to put the country ahead of ourselves and our families. That is the whole point!
    Ask not what your country can do for you. Instead, ask how you can think of a ridiculous pretext for driving the whole length of the country while in quarantine.
    A ridiculous pretext?
    You didn’t think it was?

    ‘We needed to be close to childcare.’

    ‘Why? Could nobody in London help?’

    ‘I dunno, it never crossed my mind to ask.’
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105
    Socky said:

    Putting oneself before the interests of the community is basic Tory philosophy so perhaps the only surprise is that anyone would expect them to have behaved any differently.

    Putting your family before the state is indeed a Conservative trait, and not something their supporters would see as a problem.

    I suspect people who would never vote for Boris are now even more sure they will not vote for him.
    I said "the community" not "the state". I thought you Tories knew the difference between the two. Also, as others have noted, the government has told the rest of us to put the interests of the community over those of ourselves during the pandemic. Was that advice wrong? Or was it only meant for the little people?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,160
    TGOHF666 said:

    This is why we need sport back - to save us from FBPE mongs analysing car journeys on twitter and PB.com.

    An interesting piece of political incorrectness for this time of the morning.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    " Another MP said the situation "feels more poll tax than ERM, actually." "

    Telegraph
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    geoffw said:

    On Dom's lack of apology and hubristic mien, it's surely to be expected. All Christians recite the Lord's prayer which refers to "Thy king Dom Cum.. " It laters says ".. we forgive those who trespass against us". Perhaps the ire of the C of E bishopry is misdirected.

    Are you suggesting he is the Second Cummings?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105
    murali_s said:

    Just reading through the comments. Almost universal condemnation of Cummings' press conference yesterday. PB has come together as one for once. ...Or maybe the right-wing loons haven't woken up yet? It's only the plebs that get up early getting ready for work I guess

    Sleeping off a life on dividends.
  • Options
    SockySocky Posts: 404

    The PM asked us to put the country ahead of ourselves and our families. That is the whole point!

    The lesson of the 1951 election is that UK voters may accept some temporary socialism in a crisis, but they are not naturally socialist. The chains will be discarded as soon as possible.

    "I did it for my family" plays well amongst Conservative voters.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,901
    The smirk as he leaves thinking "They bought that crap. They're almost as dumb as the cabinet"

    https://twitter.com/FayeJ14/status/1265041688466161664
  • Options
    SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    edited May 2020

    Saltire said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    eadric said:

    Cummings and Johnson need to put this rubbish behind them and get back to work.

    Weston-Super-Mare Hospital halts admissions this afternoon due to major spike in Coronavirus cases (BBC).

    It begins. Give it two weeks and we'll be back in full lockdown as the majority of people have not been following the guidelines to a lesser or greater degree in the past fortnight. There has effectively been no lockdown since Boris eased things.
    What do you mean...everybody is acting very sensibly...oh wait...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8354291/Fears-lockdown-collapse-crowds-hitting-parks-beaches-79F-heatwave.html
    On the other hand, countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria, etc, have eased their lockdowns and had similar scenes, and there have not been major second waves
    We’d be in a second wave now if the PB forecasts were true. Long before the lockdown was eased, people were falling over themselves on here to lambast Londoners for sitting in parks during a mid spring mini heatwave.

    We were assured it would lead to a second spike.

    It didn’t.
    True.
    A Japanese paper I posted yesterday showed their statistics indicated transmission was around 18 times more likely indoors.

    Even allowing for much greater mask wearing in Japan, that’s a huge difference.

    I wouldn’t want to sit in a crowded football stand, but it looks as though parks are pretty safe.
    I wonder if we will see season tickets for next year at 20% capacity. I think it could be done safely but will probably be untenable.

    They could probably increase price by 2-3x and get those kind of attendances so might be able to salvage 50% of gate revenue.
    If football clubs seriously tried to put their ticket prices up by even half that amount there would be an outcry from fans and rightly so.
    I suspect that the outcome for many football clubs is that they are going to have to cut costs significantly for the next couple years to survive and that means that the players are going to find that their wages are going to be cut, and in some cases fairly drastically.
    In League Two, if you halved some younger players wages, you would be breaking minimum wage laws.

    At the Premiership level yes of course, the wage inflation of the past 30 years is over for a while and clubs will have smaller squads on lower wages.
    I never suggested that all players would need to see their wages cut drastically but I do think that the days of Championship teams paying 20K a week to some their players and even the 5K a week that some League 2 players are on are over for the time being.
    With little or no gate money for the rest of the year and a huge drop in sponsorship there is going to need to be huge cost reductions especially in the Championship down to the National League. Once you get below that a lot of the players are only on 1 or 2 year deals and therefore actually teams, come next month, will not have huge outgoings and therefore might actually be able to weather the storm.
    The EPL obviously is a different planet financially when looking at the wealth of the owners and the TV money that they will get for playing competitive training matches for the forseeable future.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    When the PM said there would be a staged process of opening, with constant reference back to the traffic lights of the state of the virus infection rate, what he meant to say is that we will rush to open just everything we can in the 2nd week of June in order to save my senior aide.

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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    On Dom's lack of apology and hubristic mien, it's surely to be expected. All Christians recite the Lord's prayer which refers to "Thy king Dom Cum.. " It laters says ".. we forgive those who trespass against us". Perhaps the ire of the C of E bishopry is misdirected.

    Are you suggesting he is the Second Cummings?
    He walks among us.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Socky said:

    The PM asked us to put the country ahead of ourselves and our families. That is the whole point!

    The lesson of the 1951 election is that UK voters may accept some temporary socialism in a crisis, but they are not naturally socialist. The chains will be discarded as soon as possible.

    "I did it for my family" plays well amongst Conservative voters.
    If they believe him.

    But early evidence suggests they don’t.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,160
    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    On Dom's lack of apology and hubristic mien, it's surely to be expected. All Christians recite the Lord's prayer which refers to "Thy king Dom Cum.. " It laters says ".. we forgive those who trespass against us". Perhaps the ire of the C of E bishopry is misdirected.

    Are you suggesting he is the Second Cummings?
    He's not the Messiah, he is just a very naughty boy...for breaking quarantine guidance and telling whoppas.
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