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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    Serious question for @Stocky .

    Do you know whether the prohibition is a matter of Law (ie Regulations) or Guidelines (ie Advice) ?

    Thank-you for the piece.

    Not an expert but so far as I can see Fishing's request (1) is prohibited by the Health Protection Regs 2020 (as revised for 1 June) section 7(1)(b)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/7

    But the request (2) is allowed under 7(1)(a). Clearly however it is not allowed by the guidance (of which there now seems to be mountains).

    I think it is inevitable that the people running the homes are going to be governed by the precautionary principle.
    So the "outside visit" is not illegal. That sounds right to me. This is what I've witnessed occurring.
    That sounds like a potential compromise. Masked up & 2 metres & outside.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    Andy_JS said:

    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Parliamentary Constituencies Bill Briefing note - see page 16.

    Review will be based on 2020 electorates (not yet known) but using 2019 as an estimate, main changes in seats are:

    South East +7
    East +4
    South West +3
    North East -3
    Scotland -3
    Wales -8

    Looks as if bound to be good for Con.

    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8921/CBP-8921.pdf

    Does that hold as true with the Tories new "red wall" and north Wales seats I wonder?
    Most of the red wall seats have undersized electorates AFAIK. Burnley, Blyth Valley, Sedgefield, Darlington for example all have well under 70,000 voters atm.
    There arent as many Labour areas that have badly undersized electorates now. Mainly just the Wirral ones and the Welsh valleys and a small no. of others.

    Also some urban Labour seats in London, Bristol, Leeds,Manchester and Sheffield in 2019 also had very large electorates but will probably be lower at the time of the review.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    Serious question for @Stocky .

    Do you know whether the prohibition is a matter of Law (ie Regulations) or Guidelines (ie Advice) ?

    Thank-you for the piece.

    Not an expert but so far as I can see Fishing's request (1) is prohibited by the Health Protection Regs 2020 (as revised for 1 June) section 7(1)(b)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/7

    But the request (2) is allowed under 7(1)(a). Clearly however it is not allowed by the guidance (of which there now seems to be mountains).

    I think it is inevitable that the people running the homes are going to be governed by the precautionary principle.
    So the "outside visit" is not illegal. That sounds right to me. This is what I've witnessed occurring.
    That sounds like a potential compromise. Masked up & 2 metres & outside.
    That`s what I`d hoped for - but request denied.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855
    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anyway, dinner is nearly ready so I have to pop the red wine out of the fridge before it gets too cold.

    Ice works in red wine imo. Odd concept but it does.
    Standard in Taiwan. Get odd looks when you ask for it without
    I only drink plonk so it's not vandalism or anything.

    Are you still doing the Buddhism?
    I am indeed. Just off to meditate this moment.
    Did "respond not react" the other day.

    Very good and also very relevant for on here. Not that I always manage it. ☺
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    MikeL said:

    Parliamentary Constituencies Bill Briefing note - see page 16.

    Review will be based on 2020 electorates (not yet known) but using 2019 as an estimate, main changes in seats are:

    South East +7
    East +4
    South West +3
    North East -3
    Scotland -3
    Wales -8

    Looks as if bound to be good for Con.

    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8921/CBP-8921.pdf

    This actually looks pretty reasonable to me. The East will undoubtedly be good for the Tories. I am less certain that the same will apply to the SE and SW. Wales might be interesting.

    Life is clearly returning to normal.

    PB is talking about boundaries again!
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    Surrey said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:

    There's got to be at least one black swan in the next five months

    What more black swans could there be on top of the impeachment of the President, a worldwide pandemic, an economic collapse, the implosion of China’s international position, the murder of a detainee sparking riots in US cities, and some of the hottest, driest weather ever recorded?

    I think we’ve already had ample black swans for the entire decade. If that hasn’t dethroned Trump, nothing short an assassin’s bullet will.
    It is in the nature of black swans that they cannot be conceived of in sharp resolution beforehand. (See Nassim Taleb.) But to answer your question there could be a far worse economic collapse, war with China (or Iran or Russia), one or more assassinations as you say, Trump could get Covid-19 (his inhalation during his address yesterday didn't seem tiptop), there could be terrorist attacks either with a high casualty figure or of especial gruesomeness, or upheaval following a US withdrawal from other international organisations than the WHO.
    ...a military coup; another impeachment; 25th amendment; attempted secession. Add up the probabilities of all these possibilities and they exceed 1% I think.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Surrey said:

    Surrey said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:

    There's got to be at least one black swan in the next five months

    What more black swans could there be on top of the impeachment of the President, a worldwide pandemic, an economic collapse, the implosion of China’s international position, the murder of a detainee sparking riots in US cities, and some of the hottest, driest weather ever recorded?

    I think we’ve already had ample black swans for the entire decade. If that hasn’t dethroned Trump, nothing short an assassin’s bullet will.
    It is in the nature of black swans that they cannot be conceived of in sharp resolution beforehand. (See Nassim Taleb.) But to answer your question there could be a far worse economic collapse, war with China (or Iran or Russia), one or more assassinations as you say, Trump could get Covid-19 (his inhalation during his address yesterday didn't seem tiptop), there could be terrorist attacks either with a high casualty figure or of especial gruesomeness, or upheaval following a US withdrawal from other international organisations than the WHO.
    ...a military coup; another impeachment; 25th amendment; attempted secession. Add up the probabilities of all these possibilities and they exceed 1% I think.
    It’s your relentless optimism that I like...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

    If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

    Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?
    This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

    He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.
    Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.
    It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

    How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.
    Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.
    I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

    Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

    People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

    all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.
    Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

    My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means
    I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

    He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.
    I disagree, for three reasons.

    Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

    President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

    But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

    Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

    But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

    President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

    Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

    And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

    But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

    In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.
    Well said. Nodding all the way until the use of "little" right at the end there.
    Oh girls, girls really.

    I'm sorry but its almost like I'm in a political version of 'from Ladette to Lady' with Marjorie RCS in charge of the Acme school of Presidential etiquette.

    all this stuff is worse than the Bay of Pigs? Worse than trying to overthrow the government of Cuba?

    Worse than Iran Contra?

    Worse than Watergate, bugging the headquarters of your main political opponents?

    Worse than Vietnam, worse than Napalm and the deaths of countless civilians?

    And what about the enormous lies the American people must have been told about all of these escapades, never mind Iraq.

    Trump doesn't lie more than other presidents, its just he's rubbish at it. Why? he's not a politician. That's why he's there.
    You try so hard to sound like a seasoned "man of the world", don't you. It's quite sweet really.

    Anyway, OK.

    (i) Some bad things have happened in the last 60 years that he is not responsible for.

    (ii) He is forever lying and getting caught.

    I cannot disagree. But is this a solid platform for reelection?
    He's a known quantity?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anyway, dinner is nearly ready so I have to pop the red wine out of the fridge before it gets too cold.

    Ice works in red wine imo. Odd concept but it does.
    Standard in Taiwan. Get odd looks when you ask for it without
    I only drink plonk so it's not vandalism or anything.

    Are you still doing the Buddhism?
    No. I only do red or white. Rosé occasionally ;)
    Trouble with rose is you end up gulping it rather than delicately sipping.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    Serious question for @Stocky .

    Do you know whether the prohibition is a matter of Law (ie Regulations) or Guidelines (ie Advice) ?

    Thank-you for the piece.

    Not an expert but so far as I can see Fishing's request (1) is prohibited by the Health Protection Regs 2020 (as revised for 1 June) section 7(1)(b)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/7

    But the request (2) is allowed under 7(1)(a). Clearly however it is not allowed by the guidance (of which there now seems to be mountains).

    I think it is inevitable that the people running the homes are going to be governed by the precautionary principle.
    So the "outside visit" is not illegal. That sounds right to me. This is what I've witnessed occurring.
    That sounds like a potential compromise. Masked up & 2 metres & outside.
    That`s what I`d hoped for - but request denied.
    I believe (but am not certain) government policy is to avoid all non essential contact in Care Homes until the CV19 situation is brought under control in Care Homes.

    I wish it were otherwise and wish you luck but I don't expect a quick change. Hopefully messages like yours and support places like here will see reasonable compromises like outdoor contact being permitted.

    I think both the government and Care Home sector are terrified of the deaths occuring getting worse but the tragic reality is there can be fates worse than death. Reasonable compromises are necessary and I wish you luck.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 583
    edited June 2020


    Wales will lose 8 seats - probably 1 Plaid 3 or 4 Labour and 4 or 3 Conservativej
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Sympathies, Fishing - I do hope a solution can be found quickly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    edited June 2020
    @Stocky

    A sad tale.

    I am planning to go visit my Mother in Law in her Nursing home next week. They have had cases of Covid-19, including at least one death (Grandma's swabs came back negative). Currently she is confined to her room, as an infection control measure and is getting rather depressed. She is muddled but understands enough.

    Fortunately, her room is on the ground floor, so we can visit from outside, without exposing anyone at risk, and chat through her window.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    What a very touching and heartfelt article, @Fishing.

    I hope the government listens.

    Humanity and kindness matter.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    Serious question for @Stocky .

    Do you know whether the prohibition is a matter of Law (ie Regulations) or Guidelines (ie Advice) ?

    Thank-you for the piece.

    Not an expert but so far as I can see Fishing's request (1) is prohibited by the Health Protection Regs 2020 (as revised for 1 June) section 7(1)(b)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/7

    But the request (2) is allowed under 7(1)(a). Clearly however it is not allowed by the guidance (of which there now seems to be mountains).

    I think it is inevitable that the people running the homes are going to be governed by the precautionary principle.
    So the "outside visit" is not illegal. That sounds right to me. This is what I've witnessed occurring.
    That sounds like a potential compromise. Masked up & 2 metres & outside.
    That`s what I`d hoped for - but request denied.
    Have you asked your MP to raise it?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anyway, dinner is nearly ready so I have to pop the red wine out of the fridge before it gets too cold.

    Ice works in red wine imo. Odd concept but it does.
    Standard in Taiwan. Get odd looks when you ask for it without
    I only drink plonk so it's not vandalism or anything.

    Are you still doing the Buddhism?
    No. I only do red or white. Rosé occasionally ;)

    Reminds me of Coco Chanel’s quote about champagne.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    One tragedy of the whole outbreak and the way the media, government and opposition now are handling this is making it about statistics and numbers when real people are in this. Real families.

    The last couple of PMQs have led on Care Homes and I think that's making everyone in the sector and government take the precautionary principle to the nth degree.

    If best practices come in that's great. If the context of why we are doing this and the contacts that are valuable are lost its not.

    It would be good to see less politicisation of this sector and more listening to families needs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    O/T

    Of the 53 seats the Tories gained from Labour at the last election 13 of them had higher than average electorates compared to the English average of 75,000.

    Ashfield, Bassetlaw, Bolsover, Bury South, Colne Valley,
    Crewe & Nantwich, Dewsbury, Heywood & Middleton, Ipwich,
    Leigh, Stockton South, Stroud, Warrington South.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Moderator: can you please change the author of the header from fishing to Stocky. Still causing confusion - thanks.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    Serious question for @Stocky .

    Do you know whether the prohibition is a matter of Law (ie Regulations) or Guidelines (ie Advice) ?

    Thank-you for the piece.

    Not an expert but so far as I can see Fishing's request (1) is prohibited by the Health Protection Regs 2020 (as revised for 1 June) section 7(1)(b)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/7

    But the request (2) is allowed under 7(1)(a). Clearly however it is not allowed by the guidance (of which there now seems to be mountains).

    I think it is inevitable that the people running the homes are going to be governed by the precautionary principle.
    So the "outside visit" is not illegal. That sounds right to me. This is what I've witnessed occurring.
    That sounds like a potential compromise. Masked up & 2 metres & outside.
    That`s what I`d hoped for - but request denied.
    Have you asked your MP to raise it?
    No - I did wonder about this but the care home is in Devon and I`m in Northamptonshire.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855
    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:

    Surrey said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:

    There's got to be at least one black swan in the next five months

    What more black swans could there be on top of the impeachment of the President, a worldwide pandemic, an economic collapse, the implosion of China’s international position, the murder of a detainee sparking riots in US cities, and some of the hottest, driest weather ever recorded?

    I think we’ve already had ample black swans for the entire decade. If that hasn’t dethroned Trump, nothing short an assassin’s bullet will.
    It is in the nature of black swans that they cannot be conceived of in sharp resolution beforehand. (See Nassim Taleb.) But to answer your question there could be a far worse economic collapse, war with China (or Iran or Russia), one or more assassinations as you say, Trump could get Covid-19 (his inhalation during his address yesterday didn't seem tiptop), there could be terrorist attacks either with a high casualty figure or of especial gruesomeness, or upheaval following a US withdrawal from other international organisations than the WHO.
    ...a military coup; another impeachment; 25th amendment; attempted secession. Add up the probabilities of all these possibilities and they exceed 1% I think.
    It’s your relentless optimism that I like...
    I think he's on to something but I know what you mean - can't we have a WHITE black swan please?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited June 2020
    Penddu2 said:



    Wales will lose 8 seats - probably 1 Plaid 3 or 4 Labour and 4 or 3 Conservativej

    Plaid will be pretty lucky if they only end up losing one seat. Assuming Preseli Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion are combined, and east and west Carmarthenshire, that’s two seats the Conservatives would start with pretty comfortable nominal holds in.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

    If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

    Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?
    This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

    He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.
    Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.
    It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

    How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.
    Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.
    I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

    Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

    People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

    all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.
    Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

    My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means
    I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

    He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.
    I disagree, for three reasons.

    (...)

    Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

    But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

    President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

    (...)
    James P. Pfiffner, "The Lies of Donald Trump: A Taxonomy".

  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Foxy said:

    @Stocky

    A sad tale.

    I am planning to go visit my Mother in Law in her Nursing home next week. They have had cases of Covid-19, including at least one death (Grandma's swabs came back negative). Currently she is confined to her room, as an infection control measure and is getting rather depressed. She is muddled but understands enough.

    Fortunately, her room is on the ground floor, so we can visit from outside, without exposing anyone at risk, and chat through her window.

    Yes, a window visit is the best we have. Mum`s room is upstairs so they bring her down to the only suitable window that they can use for this purpose. As the window is closed it is very difficult to hear, especially for my dad. To make matters worse the window backs onto the road, with only a narrow area for the visitor, so road noise is an issue.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Alistair said:
    Yeah Scott most other Presidents wouldn't have the guts to show their face after ordering the military to attack peaceful protestors, the press corps and Priests in a Church.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    A question for a friend. Does anyone have a working email address for Liz Truss? Her parliament.mp one doesn't appear to be working.

    Could try her DoT address

    truss.correspondence@trade.gov.uk

    and ask them to forward it as her parliamentary address doesn't work for you (did you make sure you had all 3 dots in elizabeth.truss.mp@parliament.uk?).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Of the 53 seats the Tories gained from Labour at the last election 13 of them had higher than average electorates compared to the English average of 75,000.

    Ashfield, Bassetlaw, Bolsover, Bury South, Colne Valley,
    Crewe & Nantwich, Dewsbury, Heywood & Middleton, Ipwich,
    Leigh, Stockton South, Stroud, Warrington South.

    Not sure about the others but Warrington South was Tory from 2010 to 2017. I'd campaigned for David in that seat in 2010 and 2015 and he was a good MP that May's hubris lost. Glad the seat was regained even if it was to a different MP.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

    If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

    Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?
    This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

    He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.
    Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.
    It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

    How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.
    Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.
    I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

    Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

    People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

    all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.
    Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

    My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means
    I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

    He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.
    I disagree, for three reasons.

    Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

    President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

    But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

    Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

    But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

    President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

    Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

    And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

    But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

    In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.
    Well said. Nodding all the way until the use of "little" right at the end there.
    Oh girls, girls really.

    I'm sorry but its almost like I'm in a political version of 'from Ladette to Lady' with Marjorie RCS in charge of the Acme school of Presidential etiquette.

    all this stuff is worse than the Bay of Pigs? Worse than trying to overthrow the government of Cuba?

    Worse than Iran Contra?

    Worse than Watergate, bugging the headquarters of your main political opponents?

    Worse than Vietnam, worse than Napalm and the deaths of countless civilians?

    And what about the enormous lies the American people must have been told about all of these escapades, never mind Iraq.

    Trump doesn't lie more than other presidents, its just he's rubbish at it. Why? he's not a politician. That's why he's there.
    You try so hard to sound like a seasoned "man of the world", don't you. It's quite sweet really.

    Anyway, OK.

    (i) Some bad things have happened in the last 60 years that he is not responsible for.

    (ii) He is forever lying and getting caught.

    I cannot disagree. But is this a solid platform for reelection?
    He's a known quantity?
    ☺ - creative.

    I'm fucking this up to high heaven.

    Do not throw it all away.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    On topic, I saw a TV report last week of a care home doing drive through visits. Residents were sat 2m back from the kerb and their relatives pulled up in their car for a chat.

    If one home can organise this, then so should the rest.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,178
    Biden VP pick

    I've been fortunate to be sitting on a decent pile from Biden's success and have managed a nice balance between Klobuchar, who I though was under-rated at the time & Harris on his VP pick.

    Events may well have killed off Klobuchar even though I'd make the best money if she did get there. About a week or so ago I put another punt on Val Demmings. Looking at price now it was good bet and still does offer better value than Harris who is at a price that right now offers no additional benefit.

    4-6 weeks ago I couldn't see it being anyone but Harris or Klobuchar then about week ago, it was Demmings or Harris and no one else. The VP market has been a bit of a dog and one that traditionally I have not indulged in much. Its a very speculative market because there is so much back and forth and you can easily swing with the noise of the wind from the commentariat, which is one of the great sins of betting in political markets. The polls don't really enlighten (at least for me) and no real votes are cast so its easy to get lost with it. My luck with Demmings was just looking at the right thing at the right time. Had no idea who she was a fortnight ago. That may turn out to be inspired, it might turn out to be one big pothole that the VP market so often feels like.



  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

    If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

    Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?
    This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

    He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.
    Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.
    It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

    How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.
    Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.
    I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

    Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

    People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

    all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.
    Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

    My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means
    I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

    He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.
    I disagree, for three reasons.

    Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

    President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

    But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

    Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

    But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

    President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

    Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

    And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

    But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

    In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.
    Well said. Nodding all the way until the use of "little" right at the end there.
    Oh girls, girls really.

    I'm sorry but its almost like I'm in a political version of 'from Ladette to Lady' with Marjorie RCS in charge of the Acme school of Presidential etiquette.

    all this stuff is worse than the Bay of Pigs? Worse than trying to overthrow the government of Cuba?

    Worse than Iran Contra?

    Worse than Watergate, bugging the headquarters of your main political opponents?

    Worse than Vietnam, worse than Napalm and the deaths of countless civilians?

    And what about the enormous lies the American people must have been told about all of these escapades, never mind Iraq.

    Trump doesn't lie more than other presidents, its just he's rubbish at it. Why? he's not a politician. That's why he's there.
    You try so hard to sound like a seasoned "man of the world", don't you. It's quite sweet really.

    Anyway, OK.

    (i) Some bad things have happened in the last 60 years that he is not responsible for.

    (ii) He is forever lying and getting caught.

    I cannot disagree. But is this a solid platform for reelection?
    He's a known quantity?
    ☺ - creative.

    I'm fucking this up to high heaven.

    Do not throw it all away.
    I guess to his supporters he`s made America great again and to his detractors he`s made America a laughing stock.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745

    One tragedy of the whole outbreak and the way the media, government and opposition now are handling this is making it about statistics and numbers when real people are in this. Real families.

    The last couple of PMQs have led on Care Homes and I think that's making everyone in the sector and government take the precautionary principle to the nth degree.

    If best practices come in that's great. If the context of why we are doing this and the contacts that are valuable are lost its not.

    It would be good to see less politicisation of this sector and more listening to families needs.

    Statistics, spreadsheets and lines have been used as propaganda weapons for several weeks. We are to be reassured by flattening curves, downward 7-day averages and the like but, as you say, it's about real people and real families and the excess of fifty thousand who have perished.

    @Stocky's story is heart rending and I suspect can be repeated countless times and you'd have to have the hardest of hearts not to feel sympathy and compassion.

    I do think some care homes were proactive and shut down in mid March and perhaps were spared (I don't know). The risks to the elderly especially those with existing health conditions were clear at an early stage so I can understand why the decision to isolate was taken.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Stocky said:

    I guess to his supporters he`s made America great again and to his detractors he`s made America a laughing stock.

    I would say they’re both right, actually.

    He’s made America a great laughing stock.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,557
    Stocky said:

    Moderator: can you please change the author of the header from fishing to Stocky. Still causing confusion - thanks.

    Hear hear.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    Alistair said:
    Yeah Scott most other Presidents wouldn't have the guts to show their face after ordering the military to attack peaceful protestors, the press corps and Priests in a Church.
    He walked out there surrounded by Secret Service and military who probably cleared the streets first. Not impressed...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    edited June 2020

    On topic, I saw a TV report last week of a care home doing drive through visits. Residents were sat 2m back from the kerb and their relatives pulled up in their car for a chat.

    If one home can organise this, then so should the rest.

    Are you sure you're not confusing that with McDonald's?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    Serious question for @Stocky .

    Do you know whether the prohibition is a matter of Law (ie Regulations) or Guidelines (ie Advice) ?

    Thank-you for the piece.

    Not an expert but so far as I can see Fishing's request (1) is prohibited by the Health Protection Regs 2020 (as revised for 1 June) section 7(1)(b)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/7

    But the request (2) is allowed under 7(1)(a). Clearly however it is not allowed by the guidance (of which there now seems to be mountains).

    I think it is inevitable that the people running the homes are going to be governed by the precautionary principle.
    So the "outside visit" is not illegal. That sounds right to me. This is what I've witnessed occurring.
    That sounds like a potential compromise. Masked up & 2 metres & outside.
    That`s what I`d hoped for - but request denied.
    Have you tried contacting the adult social services department of your local authority ?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    edited June 2020
    Evening all :)

    Horse racing has returned - it will be interesting to see how betting markets hold up once football returns in the week of Royal Ascot but I suppose the Government thinks those who haven't spent their furlough money at IKEA will gamble it away instead.

    More CSF than MDF presumably...

    On matters boundary, two extra seats for London but where? As East Ham currently has an electorate of 97.000 I wonder if there will be a new seat carved out of bits of the seat.

    The problem is Poplar & Canning Town already has 92,000 electors and West Ham has 98,000 so perhaps a fourth constituency for the area?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    By what legal authority did Barr order this ?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/02/george-floyd-protests-live-updates/
    ... Attorney General William P. Barr personally ordered law enforcement officials on the ground to extend the perimeter around Lafayette Square in Washington to push back protesters just before President Trump spoke Monday, a Justice Department official said.
    That order came as clashes between police and the public continued to intensify, with largely peaceful daytime protests over George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis police custody descending into violence and chaos after dark, amid widespread curfews and National Guard deployments....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Alistair said:
    Yeah Scott most other Presidents wouldn't have the guts to show their face after ordering the military to attack peaceful protestors, the press corps and Priests in a Church.
    He walked out there surrounded by Secret Service and military who probably cleared the streets first. Not impressed...
    Not "probably" . . . have you not seen the videos? An Australian Channel 7 female journalist amongst others attacked while reporting on this live on air!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anyway, dinner is nearly ready so I have to pop the red wine out of the fridge before it gets too cold.

    Ice works in red wine imo. Odd concept but it does.
    Standard in Taiwan. Get odd looks when you ask for it without
    I only drink plonk so it's not vandalism or anything.

    Are you still doing the Buddhism?
    I am indeed. Just off to meditate this moment.
    Did "respond not react" the other day.

    Very good and also very relevant for on here. Not that I always manage it. ☺
    That is good. It is important not to be harsh on oneself. Being kind to oneself is just as vital as being kind to others.
    Understanding there is no right or wrong way to do stuff, just ways which have positive or negative effects is a long term process. As is replacing guilt, an utterly pointless and useless festering, with regret, reflection and a wish to do better.
    Best of luck with it.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,178
    edited June 2020

    Alistair said:
    Yeah Scott most other Presidents wouldn't have the guts to show their face after ordering the military to attack peaceful protestors, the press corps and Priests in a Church.
    He walked out there surrounded by Secret Service and military who probably cleared the streets first. Not impressed...

    Everywhere the guys goes he is surrounded with security the likes of which would bankrupt a small country. I have seen the presidential security effort up close enough to know that yesterday's immediate security cordon wasn't particularly unusual.

    That the man is a clown is nothing new but no one is going to let a sitting President just mosey on down the street.

    Trump knows where is fate is if he gets voted out in November, it will be in jail and he is not going to just let that wash over him, he is going to burn the house down. The man is talking to hardcore base, that base alone wont win him anything but if he remains a hero to them then he is satisfied. It is base that most people this side of the water don't understand and often derided as stupid. It is not stupid and it has millions of people who are perfectly decent human beings. It also has some people who are not but show me any political movement that doesn't have that, especially a radicalised one.

    The Antifa conglomerate has some deeply unpleasant people amongst its most activist base. It has taken a name that is in the 'how can you be against us' category which is a nice bit of marketing but many of them are just as deaf and as anti democratic as some of Trumps base in their attitude. Its just another form of puritanism.

    This situation is not either/or but will develop into one. Trump could yet make it work short term, even though I don't see a path for him to win in November/ Regular non protesting Joe's may not like him, they may not like obvious signs of bad policing or racism but they are not going to see their towns and cities burn either. Many of those protesting may well melt away as well if protests turn consistently violent. A nice day out shouting slogans at the cops is fine, being chased a u[p a wide street bit is fine and feeling a bit like you are in the moment of something important is fine. But as soon as someone picks up a stone and smashes a window, its a very different game.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    4% agree with current government policy - one its held since the start of the pandemic and copied almost nowhere else on the planet....

    https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1267843460566003712?s=21

    I notice that Spain doesn't want flights from the UK now:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52882177

    Pity they didn't make that decision before Athletic Madrid fans killed hundreds on Merseyside.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Alistair said:
    Yeah Scott most other Presidents wouldn't have the guts to show their face after ordering the military to attack peaceful protestors, the press corps and Priests in a Church.
    He walked out there surrounded by Secret Service and military who probably cleared the streets first. Not impressed...
    Probably? They tear gassed and baton charged a peaceful demonstration on the steps of a church - so Trump could have his photo-op.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    4% agree with current government policy - one its held since the start of the pandemic and copied almost nowhere else on the planet....

    https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1267843460566003712?s=21

    I notice that Spain doesn't want flights from the UK now:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52882177

    Pity they didn't make that decision before Athletic Madrid fans killed hundreds on Merseyside.
    Firstly a study said 41 deaths attributable to that game, it should not have gone ahead UK government could have stopped it not sure how you blame their fans who came to a match sanctioned by HMG
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Has this been posted ?

    Emergence of SARS-CoV-2 through recombination and strong purifying selection
    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/05/28/sciadv.abb9153
    COVID-19 has become a global pandemic caused by the novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. Understanding the origins of SARS-CoV-2 is critical for deterring future zoonosis, discovering new drugs, and developing a vaccine. We show evidence of strong purifying selection around the receptor binding motif (RBM) in the spike and other genes among bat, pangolin, and human coronaviruses, suggesting similar evolutionary constraints in different host species. We also demonstrate that SARS-CoV-2’s entire RBM was introduced through recombination with coronaviruses from pangolins, possibly a critical step in the evolution of SARS-CoV-2’s ability to infect humans. Similar purifying selection in different host species, together with frequent recombination among coronaviruses, suggest a common evolutionary mechanism that could lead to new emerging human coronaviruses.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    https://twitter.com/timberners_lee/status/1267870995014209536

    The first tweet back says he was a "career criminal".

    Incredible.

    Norman Stanley Fletcher would have been sat on while he died of lack of air under that view of the world.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    nichomar said:

    4% agree with current government policy - one its held since the start of the pandemic and copied almost nowhere else on the planet....

    https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1267843460566003712?s=21

    I notice that Spain doesn't want flights from the UK now:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52882177

    Pity they didn't make that decision before Athletic Madrid fans killed hundreds on Merseyside.
    Firstly a study said 41 deaths attributable to that game, it should not have gone ahead UK government could have stopped it not sure how you blame their fans who came to a match sanctioned by HMG
    The UK government deserves plenty of blame for that game going ahead but that does absolve others from their responsibility either, including the Spanish government.

    As to the deaths its a steadily increasing total - people infected at the game infect others who infect others who infect others.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745


    I notice that Spain doesn't want flights from the UK now:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52882177

    Pity they didn't make that decision before Athletic Madrid fans killed hundreds on Merseyside.

    Not just Spain - hundreds flew in from Italy as well with the virus in late February and early March - returning half term holidaymakers?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717
    Yokes said:

    Alistair said:
    Yeah Scott most other Presidents wouldn't have the guts to show their face after ordering the military to attack peaceful protestors, the press corps and Priests in a Church.
    He walked out there surrounded by Secret Service and military who probably cleared the streets first. Not impressed...

    Everywhere the guys goes he is surrounded with security the likes of which would bankrupt a small country. I have seen the presidential security effort up close enough to know that yesterday's immediate security cordon wasn't particularly unusual.

    That the man is a clown is nothing new but no one is going to let a sitting President just mosey on down the street.

    Trump knows where is fate is if he gets voted out in November, it will be in jail and he is not going to just let that wash over him, he is going to burn the house down. The man is talking to hardcore base, that base alone wont win him anything but if he remains a hero to them then he is satisfied. It is base that most people this side of the water don't understand and often derided as stupid. It is not stupid and it has millions of people who are perfectly decent human beings. It also has some people who are not but show me any political movement that doesn't have that, especially a radicalised one.

    The Antifa conglomerate has some deeply unpleasant people amongst its most activist base. It has taken a name that is in the 'how can you be against us' category which is a nice bit of marketing but many of them are just as deaf and as anti democratic as some of Trumps base in their attitude. Its just another form of puritanism.

    This situation is not either/or but will develop into one. Trump could yet make it work short term, even though I don't see a path for him to win in November/ Regular non protesting Joe's may not like him, they may not like obvious signs of bad policing or racism but they are not going to see their towns and cities burn either. Many of those protesting may well melt away as well if protests turn consistently violent. A nice day out shouting slogans at the cops is fine, being chased a u[p a wide street bit is fine and feeling a bit like you are in the moment of something important is fine. But as soon as someone picks up a stone and smashes a window, its a very different game.

    Americans are not happy with Trump's approach to racial inequality and police reform but at the same time they want a tough approach to keeping law and order

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1267696509539287041?s=20


    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1267696136137179136?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1267851865099821058?s=20
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    edited June 2020
    stodge said:


    I notice that Spain doesn't want flights from the UK now:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52882177

    Pity they didn't make that decision before Athletic Madrid fans killed hundreds on Merseyside.

    Not just Spain - hundreds flew in from Italy as well with the virus in late February and early March - returning half term holidaymakers?

    The odd thing is that the British people evacuated from Wuhan were forcibly quarantined.

    And then at some point the government's policy changed to a laissez faire attitude of voluntary self-isolation or in the case of the Athletico Madrid fans no control at all.

    I'm curious as to when and how and by whom that policy changed.

    I expect its connected to the overall strategy, herd immunity or whatever, that the government were then following.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    https://twitter.com/timberners_lee/status/1267870995014209536

    The first tweet back says he was a "career criminal".

    Incredible.

    Norman Stanley Fletcher would have been sat on while he died of lack of air under that view of the world.

    Thing is, they are going to throw the book at this guy, rightly, for what he has done.

    Due process will take its course and he will be severely punished, as he should be.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited June 2020
    "'Prof Lockdown' Neil Ferguson admits Sweden used same science as UK but has suppressed coronavirus without tough restrictions"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/02/prof-lockdown-neil-ferguson-admits-sweden-used-science-uk-has/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    DUP motion preventing abortion up to birth of Downs Syndrome babies (and other non-life threatening disabilities) carries:

    https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1267909896051269637?s=20
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    I wish the lead poster all success. My Dad spent the last month of his life locked down in a care home, unable to see his loved ones. It was awful for us and must have been bloody awful for him. Thankfully we were able to see him right at the end. I have little doubt that the lockdown shaved a month or two off his life though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    From a country which for now tracks things rather more rapidly than we do...

    https://twitter.com/carlzimmer/status/1267903891229859845
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited June 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    "'Prof Lockdown' Neil Ferguson admits Sweden used same science as UK but has suppressed coronavirus without tough restrictions"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/02/prof-lockdown-neil-ferguson-admits-sweden-used-science-uk-has/

    I'm not sure that they have, they had a UK equivalent of 28k new cases recorded in the past 7 days, the UK had around 13k, the UK figure is trending down and we do a lot more testing while the Swedish figure is around the same as it was four weeks ago.

    Sweden has hit a level and because they haven't had any severe lockdown rules in place the number of new infections has stayed fairly steady and this also means the death rate hasn't come down and it also means that they won't be able to jumpstart their economy in the same way the UK is about to. Sweden really does seem like it has hit the worst of all worlds solution, they are going to take a large economic hit, they are going to have a large voluntary lockdown among people who are scared which leads to the economic hit, but not enough people are following the voluntary lockdown to actually get the infection rate down to acceptable levels.

    A week from now England specifically will be registering just a few hundred new cases per day and less than a hundred hospital deaths per day, we'll be in the same boat as the rest of Europe and there will be enough understanding among enough of the population to maintain social distancing. I already get a sense that the economy isn't as bad as it was last month and I'm optimistic that by July most sectors will be back to almost full strength. There's no way that happens for Sweden. We're around a month behind Germany and two weeks behind Italy/France and around the same as Spain. Sweden is an indeterminate amount behind the UK/Spain.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    Sir Keir Starmer is a complete shit after hos allegations about BAME deaths. Goodnight all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    DUP motion preventing abortion up to birth of Downs Syndrome babies (and other non-life threatening disabilities) carries:

    https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1267909896051269637?s=20

    Very good news
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,705
    HYUFD said:

    DUP motion preventing abortion up to birth of Downs Syndrome babies (and other non-life threatening disabilities) carries:

    https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1267909896051269637?s=20

    Very good news
    Is it too late to cancel the Reformation?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    Sir Keir Starmer is a complete shit after hos allegations about BAME deaths. Goodnight all.

    Has he shown any interest in excess male deaths ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sir Keir Starmer is a complete shit

    Indeed.

    His attempts to score political points over care homes etc have been disgusting. Corbyn was more of a statesman over CV19 than Starmer and that says something.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    So you envy my choice then? :smile:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    https://twitter.com/timberners_lee/status/1267870995014209536

    The first tweet back says he was a "career criminal".

    Incredible.

    Norman Stanley Fletcher would have been sat on while he died of lack of air under that view of the world.

    Thing is, they are going to throw the book at this guy, rightly, for what he has done.

    Due process will take its course and he will be severely punished, as he should be.

    I think part of the problem is that all too rarely is the book thrown at officers who behave poorly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Americans will not vote for a president seen as soft on crime as Michael Dukakis discovered in 1988, if a criminal is armed then they expect police to respond with force
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Sir Keir Starmer is a complete shit after hos allegations about BAME deaths. Goodnight all.

    Has he shown any interest in excess male deaths ?
    Do they offer him political advantage?

    There's your answer
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    https://twitter.com/timberners_lee/status/1267870995014209536

    The first tweet back says he was a "career criminal".

    Incredible.

    Norman Stanley Fletcher would have been sat on while he died of lack of air under that view of the world.

    Thing is, they are going to throw the book at this guy, rightly, for what he has done.

    Due process will take its course and he will be severely punished, as he should be.

    I think part of the problem is that all too rarely is the book thrown at officers who behave poorly.
    Three of the four responsible for killing Floyd still haven't been charged. So yeah this isn't being taken seriously.

    If gangbangers had murdered someone on camera so brutally you can bet all four would have been arrested by now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Americans will not vote for a president seen as soft on crime as Michael Dukakis discovered in 1988, if a criminal is armed then they expect police to respond with force
    Not about being soft on crime, it is sinply an idiotic suggestion on so many levels.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Sir Keir Starmer is a complete shit

    Indeed.

    His attempts to score political points over care homes etc have been disgusting. Corbyn was more of a statesman over CV19 than Starmer and that says something.
    I think the shine is coming off Keir somewhat. Another north London metropolitan socialist, built on his parents' money, absolutely hates working class people! No wonder Boris is still 10% clear.

    Maybe bring back Ed Balls for LAB GE 2029?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Speaking of wallys, can we add Bill de Blasio to the list?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8377053/Bill-Blasio-says-didnt-know-daughter-arrested-protests.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Where did he say that?!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Tim_B said:

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Speaking of wallys, can we add Bill de Blasio to the list?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8377053/Bill-Blasio-says-didnt-know-daughter-arrested-protests.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490
    The setting of the curfew for 11pm last night was absolutely moronic.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    HYUFD said:
    Totally not a racial superiority cult.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Where did he say that?!
    Yesterday when he was making a speech to community leaders at Bethel AME Church in Wilmington, Del.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/biden-suggests-police-could-shoot-assailants-in-the-leg-instead-of-the-heart-201750470.html
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Tim_B said:

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Speaking of wallys, can we add Bill de Blasio to the list?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8377053/Bill-Blasio-says-didnt-know-daughter-arrested-protests.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490
    Why?

    Should a father know where his 25 year old daughter is at all times? Should he make her report to her father?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,557

    HYUFD said:
    Totally not a racial superiority cult.
    ... nor woke virtue signalling ...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,978
    Apologies to Stocky, he has now been properly credited as the author of this piece.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:
    Totally not a racial superiority cult.
    ... nor woke virtue signalling ...
    At times like this there are worse things in life than virtue signalling ...
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    HYUFD said:

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Americans will not vote for a president seen as soft on crime as Michael Dukakis discovered in 1988, if a criminal is armed then they expect police to respond with force
    I think 2020 = 1988 for Biden
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:
    Totally not a racial superiority cult.
    ... nor woke virtue signalling ...
    At times like this there are worse things in life than virtue signalling ...
    No, this is mental illness and dangerous.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,557
    edited June 2020
    Ave_it said:

    Sir Keir Starmer is a complete shit

    Indeed.

    His attempts to score political points over care homes etc have been disgusting. Corbyn was more of a statesman over CV19 than Starmer and that says something.
    I think the shine is coming off Keir somewhat. Another north London metropolitan socialist, built on his parents' money, absolutely hates working class people! No wonder Boris is still 10% clear.
    Not only that, but he has an odd inability to take positions on issues. Before the last election, the Brexit policy was maximum fudge. Since then, he and his shadow cabinet has refused lots of opportunities to say what Labour's policy is on vital issues like schools reopening or ending the lockdown. We've no idea what he would have done differently in March.

    He's not a risk-taker - few lawyers are. But if he wants to make headway, he'll need to take some positions on the big issues of the day eventually, unless the Government implodes completely. Being good at PMQs won't be nearly enough.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Speaking of wallys, can we add Bill de Blasio to the list?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8377053/Bill-Blasio-says-didnt-know-daughter-arrested-protests.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490
    The setting of the curfew for 11pm last night was absolutely moronic.
    Even more moronic to wait until last night to invoke a curfew. We are now coming up on our 5th night of trouble, (the office building in Buckhead where my daughter works was ransacked over the weekend but luckily they couldn't get up to her floor), and the curfew has been around for 4 days. The national guard was on the streets last night and there was much less trouble.

    On the good side, as of yesterday (June 1) we are now unlocked, open, and unrestrained, with the exception of social distancing. Everything is open.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    Joe Biden is a prize wally...

    Joe Biden, the likely Democratic nominee for president, said recently that police could shoot someone in the leg instead of the heart, saying that one is “a very different thing” from the other.

    350 million people and the Americans get to choose between Trump or him. Jesus wept.

    Where did he say that?!
    Yesterday when he was making a speech to community leaders at Bethel AME Church in Wilmington, Del.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/biden-suggests-police-could-shoot-assailants-in-the-leg-instead-of-the-heart-201750470.html
    What a moron. Completely misunderstands the issue of unarmed black people having deadly force used on them by racist cops who assume all black people are criminals. In the nicest way possible I hope he has a severe enough health issue that means he needs to step aside and Cuomo steps up. He's got the gumption and balls to smash Trump to pieces.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:
    Totally not a racial superiority cult.
    ... nor woke virtue signalling ...
    At times like this there are worse things in life than virtue signalling ...
    No, this is mental illness and dangerous.
    That thing where you're more worked up about white people kneeling down to black people than a white cop kneeling on a black man's throat.
This discussion has been closed.