Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds Moggsy’s MP voting plan has gone down

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds Moggsy’s MP voting plan has gone down like a lead balloon with voters, even Tory ones

There are so many things going on at the moment that the Rees-Mogg move to end distant voting by MPs didn’t get much attention apart from the pictures of the queuing arrangements.

Read the full story here


«1345678

Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited June 2020
    Primus inter pares.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited June 2020
    Hopefully the folly of the PM and JRM doesn’t end up killing/damaging the health of any MPs or Parliamentary staff.

    I’m sure these two will handle a no deal exit in January equally well.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Questions like this a lot of it depends upon how you phrase it.

    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Social distancing will be the death of many businesses, hospitality in a socially distanced manner is going to be nigh on impossible and if voting in a socially distanced manner is a Pain In The Ass then for MPs then good - they should realise better how this affects real people in the real world.

    Shielders of course should not be disenfranchised and that's disgraceful if it happens (though I thought they were getting proxy voting) but non-shielders should work.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.

    Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.

    Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.

    Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.

    The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.

    MK? *googles for land of concrete coos* Ah - now I see. Blood is sure thicker than residence when it comes to Tories. But what a dunt in the baws to the actual Scottish Tories. Remiunds me of the day when the Scottish Office was run by a MP from Weston-Super-Mare IIRC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-52880226
    The new Scottish office minister was born in Hamilton and went to school in Glasgow.

    He is Scottish, he just represents an English seat
    Your lot howled when Labour and LD MPs from Scotland voted on English matters (a sentiment the SNP entirely sympathise with).

    Also - do you think race/genetics/blood rather than voter representation is more important?
    That's a point. Presumably the new under-assistant, deputy panjandrum won't be voting on the Scotland only matters that he's supposed to be helping to formulate?
    HY is a blood and soil nationalist.

    You gotta laugh at Tories. Remember when they screamed their heads off at a jock being their prime minister.
    I think it was him being Labour that caused that.
    What, not him being a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'?
    You think the main reason for them supposedly "screaming their heads off" was because he was Scottish?
    Who said main?
    I think it was a factor. Unlike Blair, Brown was very identifiably Scottish, regardless of all the Gascoigne goal luvvin', Arctic Monkeys fandom pish he tried. Of course the opposite also applies, why do you think David 'English' Cameron was kept away from any real live Jocks during the indy campaign?

    I thought it was a mistake not using Cameron more during the campaign. For all that I was not a fan, he was a good speechmaker, and the one speech he made to an audience of corporates in Edinburgh was well done. I watched it with a Scottish colleague who afterwards said 'there, that was all he needed to say'. I also didn't see any harm in him being publicly heckled - Blair would have just gone for it and got some sympathy out of it.

    I completely disagree with you about Brown's Scottishness getting him abused. There's a huge perception gap here between slight intended and slight taken and internalised. It is very hard for an English person who hasn't spent time in Scotland to understand.
    I was on a different politics blog back then and I can certainly recall that Brown being a Scot - or more accurately being both Brown AND a Scot - was a source of much negative sentiment from a particular type of (nearly always male) English Tory.
    FPT Interestingly Mr Blair, who was born in Scotland, never seemed to attract that animus (or at least the non-Brownian bit).

    Edit: but he didn't sound like it - and you can't imagine him as the son of the Manse or Rector in the Edin Uni Union at Bristo.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Mr Carmichael (LD, Orkney) was mentioned here the other day. He's asked for an emergency debate anent the Commons procedures. Here's what he said on Tuesday, according t the Graun feed:

    "In order for me to get here today, it required a journey of 18 hours, starting with an aeroplane, a taxi, a normal train and four hours in Edinburgh waiting for a sleeper train that I picked up at 1 o’clock this morning to arrive at Euston at 8 am. I cannot and will not do that every week. Apart from anything else, the return journey will be 26 hours long and would require me then to go into self-isolation for 14 days—the only responsible way to live in a community such as mine. Having come here, I am here for the duration, because I cannot go back until it is safe to my family and my community for me to do so."
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    [snipped images]

    What do you mean by Spanish Style?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    Same in schools
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    The rest of the country is told to make do - why can't they practice what they preach?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    edited June 2020

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    [snipped images]

    What do you mean by Spanish Style?
    Only the deaths from yesterday "count"

    Should have added -

    Russian style - 3 doctors fell out of windows

    Back to the numbers themselves....

    Looks like the numbers have definitely stepped down to a new level.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    The rest of the country is told to make do - why can't they practice what they preach?
    Which is exactly the point my son and others are making.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    There is a reason why wee smog has been kept well away from any position of responsibility, as Boris is now discovering to his cost.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.

    Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.

    Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.

    Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.

    The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.

    MK? *googles for land of concrete coos* Ah - now I see. Blood is sure thicker than residence when it comes to Tories. But what a dunt in the baws to the actual Scottish Tories. Remiunds me of the day when the Scottish Office was run by a MP from Weston-Super-Mare IIRC.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-52880226
    The new Scottish office minister was born in Hamilton and went to school in Glasgow.

    He is Scottish, he just represents an English seat
    Your lot howled when Labour and LD MPs from Scotland voted on English matters (a sentiment the SNP entirely sympathise with).

    Also - do you think race/genetics/blood rather than voter representation is more important?
    That's a point. Presumably the new under-assistant, deputy panjandrum won't be voting on the Scotland only matters that he's supposed to be helping to formulate?
    HY is a blood and soil nationalist.

    You gotta laugh at Tories. Remember when they screamed their heads off at a jock being their prime minister.
    Your the supporter of the Nationalist party not me.

    Personally I also never questioned Brown's right to be PM under our parliamentary system
    Let’s be honest @HYUFD the current incarnation of the Conservative Party is simply the English National Party.
    You say that like its a bad thing.
    Is it a bad thing for the Conservative and Unionist Party to utterly discard the union and be a nationalist / populist party for only one part of the union? Yeah, I'd think so
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    Same in schools
    How many in schools have to shield?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Fortunately Boris has moved to proxy voting for MPs if needed
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083

    Hopefully the folly of the PM and JRM doesn’t end up killing/damaging the health of any MPs or Parliamentary staff.

    I’m sure these two will handle a no deal exit in January equally well.

    You’d think Boris might have learned something from his charging about shaking hands with anyone and everyone at the beginning of the crisis, shortly afterwards going down with the virus himself.

    Still, maybe Sharma just has a bad case of hay fever, as Brandon Lewis was touting on R4 this morning.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,703
    It's less than optimal for the government to be looking over its shoulder at public opinion all the time, especially 4 years before the next election. Decisions like the Virtual Parliament should be decided on their merits, not according to a snap poll by YouGov. On its merits it was probably a bad decision and didn't need to be taken right now. But the fact that a majority of YouGov muppets agree makes me less confident of my judgment.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    edited June 2020
    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    The rest of the country is told to make do - why can't they practice what they preach?

    The rest of the country is being told to work remotely if it can. As MPs can work remotely that is what they should do.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    HYUFD said:

    Fortunately Boris has moved to proxy voting for MPs if needed

    We await with anticipation some policy that Boris will stick with for more than a few days.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2020

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    If the MPs collectively wanted to fix the problem, rather than moan about it, it wouldn't be difficult. There were loads of complaints about the online voting not working at the time.

    If the MPs themselves are massively inconvenienced by having to keep their distance, maybe that will focus their minds on the inconveniences they are imposing on their constituents.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    The rest of the country is told to make do - why can't they practice what they preach?

    The rest of the country is being told to work remotely if it can. As MPs can work remotely that is what they should do.

    Quite this make them suffer is pathetic
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    isam said:

    I was just on BBC Radio Essex.. fame at last!

    What was the subject?

    How as a self-employed pro gambler, you were looking forward to the sport starting back up?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    How do you define that? If a country is testing no one...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    MPs can work remotely.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,586
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    Same in schools
    How many in schools have to shield?
    Shielding MPs are getting proxy voting, quite appropriately, but non-shielding MPs don't have an excuse not to be at work the same as millions up and down the country are.

    As @Cyclefree has repeatedly pointed out the government is preparing to tell theatres, restaurants, pubs, bars, cinemas and all other forms of entertainment that they need to reopen socially distanced. They're losing the summer of trade and they're losing furlough in October and their premises aren't going to magically get any bigger to permit social distancing any more than the House of Commons is going to do so.

    If its good enough for the rest of the economy to have social distancing, its good enough for MPs too.

    If social distancing isn't good enough, that should apply to the rest of the nation too.
  • novanova Posts: 525

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    The rest of the country is told to make do - why can't they practice what they preach?

    The official advice is still "work from home if you can".

    There's a strong argument for MPs to spend less time in Westminster, and more time working in their constituencies, so it's a shame that this has been turned into an argument about working/not working
  • DjayMDjayM Posts: 21
    It was easy to see just how much MPs loathed lining up & traipsing through the corridors at the HoC. Don't you know they're special people ? Outrageous that they should have to experience what the electorate has to confront on a daily basis. That they themselves were inconvenienced will perhaps bring an end to this charade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Okay, so the next time the bus runs over somebody, it's the street coming up to bang them on the head wot did it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    How do you define that? If a country is testing no one...
    Then just exclude that country from the comparison
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    MPs can work remotely.
    Much of the country can't and are told to make do.

    Either healthy non-shielding MPs can make do too, or the rest of the nation should be given an alternative solution.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited June 2020
    Sandpit said:

    isam said:

    I was just on BBC Radio Essex.. fame at last!

    What was the subject?

    How as a self-employed pro gambler, you were looking forward to the sport starting back up?
    I've been betting on the Bundesliga and losing a fortune!

    Here I am at 14:22 just after U2...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_essex
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    This:

    https://unherd.com/2020/06/karl-friston-up-to-80-not-even-susceptible-to-covid-19/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

    As I have been suggesting for weeks now, the only way to explain the rapid dropping away of new case numbers, faster in those areas worst affected, whilst recognising the handful of studies that have found low levels of community infection rates, is if a significant proportion of the population already has immunity, or at least significant resistance.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,586
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Only if you want to make a stupid and/or transparently dishonest argument
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Should have had more broth?
  • novanova Posts: 525
    edited June 2020
    DjayM said:

    It was easy to see just how much MPs loathed lining up & traipsing through the corridors at the HoC. Don't you know they're special people ? Outrageous that they should have to experience what the electorate has to confront on a daily basis. That they themselves were inconvenienced will perhaps bring an end to this charade.

    I doubt there's a business in the country* who would force their staff to stand in lines for an hour doing nothing, when they could get the task completed in 5 minutes, and spend the rest of the time working.

    *cue people laughing as their Dilbertstyle bosses force them to do just this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
    Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    MPs can work remotely.
    Much of the country can't and are told to make do.

    Either healthy non-shielding MPs can make do too, or the rest of the nation should be given an alternative solution.
    'We're all in this death cult together!'
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    How do you define that? If a country is testing no one...
    Then just exclude that country from the comparison
    The variability of testing between countries is probably as large as that in death rates.
    Until that changes, your suggestion is a statistical absurdity.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    So instead of voting electronically MPs are forced by a clueless Old Etonian to queue for nearly an hour in order to vote "yes" to replacing electronic voting with a 'queuing for nearly an hour' system and then that vote is promptly overturned by another clueless Old Etonian.

    Where is Joseph Heller when you need him.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Only if you want to make a stupid and/or transparently dishonest argument
    You're talking to The Master here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Should have had more broth?
    If they were under 70 they would likely not have died and broth would be fine
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,586
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
    Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
    On that basis we can probably congratulate Boris for keeping the true number of Covid deaths in single figures
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    MPs can work remotely.
    Much of the country can't and are told to make do.

    Either healthy non-shielding MPs can make do too, or the rest of the nation should be given an alternative solution.
    'We're all in this death cult together!'
    Well we should be all in this together and that should include MPs.

    If social distancing is viable then MPs have no right to complain.

    If social distancing isn't viable the rest of the nation should not be told to work socially distanced.

    Is that unreasonable?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    For @Sunil_Prasannan , Peninsula (aka Train to Busan 2) is an official Cannes selection this year.

    Though I'm not really sure what form Cannes is going to take....
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    MPs can work remotely.
    Much of the country can't and are told to make do.

    Either healthy non-shielding MPs can make do too, or the rest of the nation should be given an alternative solution.
    There is an alternative solution for MPs. There is none for many other professions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Should have had more broth?
    If they were under 70 they would likely not have died and broth would be fine
    I'm liking the way you've emulated Trump in embracing self-parody - it's almost impossible to tell when you think you're making a serious argument or when just taking the piss.

    Bravo.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Questions like this a lot of it depends upon how you phrase it.

    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Social distancing will be the death of many businesses, hospitality in a socially distanced manner is going to be nigh on impossible and if voting in a socially distanced manner is a Pain In The Ass then for MPs then good - they should realise better how this affects real people in the real world.

    Shielders of course should not be disenfranchised and that's disgraceful if it happens (though I thought they were getting proxy voting) but non-shielders should work.

    Part of the fallout from all this of course is that lots of people who, back in the day, used to go to offices now find they can work from home.
    And a lot of people found that that 'working from home' could include routine meetings, sometimes of quite large groups. While I would agree that part of the process of being an effective MP is bumping into another MP in corridor, tea-room or bar and having a discussion, it is possible to do something like that electronically.
    The way we conduct our politics isn't the best, and a shake-up occasioned by a pandemic might be a Good Thing.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Should have had more broth?
    :D:D:D
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Overall dead people is the stat least likely to be massaged by political influence.

    In previous years, most countries won't have thought much about the numbers. So political influence there is also likely not to be a problem.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fortunately Boris has moved to proxy voting for MPs if needed

    We await with anticipation some policy that Boris will stick with for more than a few days.
    Quarantine next for the chop, I sense.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    MPs can work remotely.

    They will probably be more comfortable snoozing at home. Those green benches do not look all that comfy, even in the JRM position
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.

    The Tories were clearly always lying about maintaining food standards. But bending the knee to Trump's America in the name of animal cruelty will piss off a large number of their voters.

  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    They all died because their cardio vascular system failed. 100%.

    Nothing to do with the Republican Governor at all.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,586
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
    Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
    You have just demonstrated why excess deaths is a more accurate measurement than you favoured 'reported death's' method.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Only if you want to make a stupid and/or transparently dishonest argument
    You're talking to The Master here.
    Or maybe the margarita
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    IanB2 said:

    This:

    https://unherd.com/2020/06/karl-friston-up-to-80-not-even-susceptible-to-covid-19/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

    As I have been suggesting for weeks now, the only way to explain the rapid dropping away of new case numbers, faster in those areas worst affected, whilst recognising the handful of studies that have found low levels of community infection rates, is if a significant proportion of the population already has immunity, or at least significant resistance.

    I don;t know about you, but I've still got the scars. Honestly the brickbats I got for arguing the same....

    The trouble is that if you believe this it leads to some fundamental questions about lockdown. I suspect that is why many find it difficult to accept, and always will.

  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Should have had more broth?
    :D:D:D
    "Bullets and the fall killed him"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBS9AHilxg0
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    MPs can work remotely.
    Much of the country can't and are told to make do.

    Either healthy non-shielding MPs can make do too, or the rest of the nation should be given an alternative solution.
    There is an alternative solution for MPs. There is none for many other professions.
    Precisely, there is none for many other professions. MPs should practice what they preach for those who have no alternative.

    If MPs find social distancing they're foisting on those with no alternative solution to be unviable or unfair or unreasonable and don't want to have to work that way then they understand how the millions of people with no alternative are thinking too. They should act accordingly. Either find an alternative that works for everyone, or suffer like they're telling millions of others to suffer.

    If MPs want to end social distancing and all that involves then the solution isn't to hide behind a computer, its to find a viable alternative that works for the entire country.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Indeed. I did over 6,000 miles across the US last autumn and barely saw any animals in fields. They are all incarcerated in sheds.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,586

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Overall dead people is the stat least likely to be massaged by political influence.

    In previous years, most countries won't have thought much about the numbers. So political influence there is also likely not to be a problem.
    If you follow the thread, HYUFD shoots his own argument for 'reported deaths' being the best measurement down in flames.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    FPT
    DougSeal said:

    » show previous quotes
    Here’s an example of everyday racism on my part regarding cultural depictions. A few months ago I watched the Mary Queen of Scots movie with Saoirse Ronan. It is very unlikely that Mary spoke with a heavy Scots accent as she was portrayed, having spent virtually all her childhood in France, and I knew that. However, halfway through I noticed I was less bothered by how Mary sounded than how Thomas Randolph, who was played by black actor Adrian Lester, looked. Neither was I as bothered that Margot Robbie is much much better looking than the historical Elizabeth I. My brain had been trained to ignore those historical inaccuracies, and the many others in the film, save for the amount of melanin in one actor’s skin. That’s systemic racism showing in someone who tries really really hard not to be racist.

    Similarly we have no problem with James Bond having a Scots, English, Irish or indeed Australian accent, having brown or blue eyes, chest hair or no chest hair, but if a black actor is ever cast in the role we all know how the usual suspects will react.

    More likely your brain registered it was historically inaccurate, just as you would have been amazed if Kunta Kinte in Roots had been played by a white actor. Just your woke self jumping on the bandwagon and then trying to get your racist smear in at the end without having the courage to say that you meant white racists.
  • rjkrjk Posts: 66


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    The question is whether or not MPs can work remotely, and that's a question that many other people are facing in their workplaces. In many cases, remote work is feasible with the right systems in place, but it's still a management decision as to whether to support those systems. The government and JRM in particular have decided that they don't want to do that. Had they taken the other path, they would have been setting an example of how even old-fashioned institutions can embrace new technology and new working patterns.

    I agree with you that if remote working were simply impossible for MPs, then MPs would just have to find a way of making it work. It might even be a catalyst for getting Parliament out of Westminster if it's just too cramped to support a socially-distancing workforce. But if remote working is an option, I don't see why it shouldn't be supported, in any workplace where this applies.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Shocked I tell you

    https://order-order.com/2020/06/04/watch-welsh-chief-medical-officer-admits-school-return-plan-blocked-by-unions/

    Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......

    The queueing isn’t the issue.

    It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
    Same in schools
    How many in schools have to shield?
    I do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
    Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
    You have just demonstrated why excess deaths is a more accurate measurement than you favoured 'reported death's' method.
    It isn't, it disadvantages countries with a low annual death rate normally for example
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    FPT
    Carnyx said:

    » show previous quotes
    UK subjects.

    LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,586
    Brom said:
    If Corbyn had written the letter, for once he would have been right too.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited June 2020
    IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Indeed. I did over 6,000 miles across the US last autumn and barely saw any animals in fields. They are all incarcerated in sheds.
    "You feed Beefburgers to Swans!"
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    rjk said:


    Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.

    Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.

    Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
    They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.

    Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?

    Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
    The question is whether or not MPs can work remotely, and that's a question that many other people are facing in their workplaces. In many cases, remote work is feasible with the right systems in place, but it's still a management decision as to whether to support those systems. The government and JRM in particular have decided that they don't want to do that. Had they taken the other path, they would have been setting an example of how even old-fashioned institutions can embrace new technology and new working patterns.

    I agree with you that if remote working were simply impossible for MPs, then MPs would just have to find a way of making it work. It might even be a catalyst for getting Parliament out of Westminster if it's just too cramped to support a socially-distancing workforce. But if remote working is an option, I don't see why it shouldn't be supported, in any workplace where this applies.
    Here remote working is both safer and more efficient than working on site. Nothing to do with being precious, just common sense.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    nico67 said:

    The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !

    Like @HYUFD says, if they didn’t want to compete with US factory farming, they should not have voted for the Conservatives or for Leave. They only have themselves to blame.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Carnyx said:

    Mr Carmichael (LD, Orkney) was mentioned here the other day. He's asked for an emergency debate anent the Commons procedures. Here's what he said on Tuesday, according t the Graun feed:

    "In order for me to get here today, it required a journey of 18 hours, starting with an aeroplane, a taxi, a normal train and four hours in Edinburgh waiting for a sleeper train that I picked up at 1 o’clock this morning to arrive at Euston at 8 am. I cannot and will not do that every week. Apart from anything else, the return journey will be 26 hours long and would require me then to go into self-isolation for 14 days—the only responsible way to live in a community such as mine. Having come here, I am here for the duration, because I cannot go back until it is safe to my family and my community for me to do so."

    Any excuse to go out on the razz in London , more porkies from the trough merchant. My heart bleeds for the lying toerag. They will be dancing in the streets in his community tonight.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    From the last thread -

    NHS England numbers out - 115
    Last 7 days - 97
    Spanish Style - 24

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
    The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
    No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
    Sorry you are wrong.

    Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
    Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
    Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
    Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
    You have just demonstrated why excess deaths is a more accurate measurement than you favoured 'reported death's' method.
    It isn't, it disadvantages countries with a low annual death rate normally for example
    If PB Tories are already falling out over which measure of deaths shows the UK in a marginally less disastrous light, I suggest the argument is already lost.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    nico67 said:

    The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !

    Like @HYUFD says, if they didn’t want to compete with US factory farming, they should not have voted for the Conservatives or for Leave. They only have themselves to blame.
    They might get more access to the vast US market with a trade deal
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    DougSeal said:

    » show previous quotes
    Here’s an example of everyday racism on my part regarding cultural depictions. A few months ago I watched the Mary Queen of Scots movie with Saoirse Ronan. It is very unlikely that Mary spoke with a heavy Scots accent as she was portrayed, having spent virtually all her childhood in France, and I knew that. However, halfway through I noticed I was less bothered by how Mary sounded than how Thomas Randolph, who was played by black actor Adrian Lester, looked. Neither was I as bothered that Margot Robbie is much much better looking than the historical Elizabeth I. My brain had been trained to ignore those historical inaccuracies, and the many others in the film, save for the amount of melanin in one actor’s skin. That’s systemic racism showing in someone who tries really really hard not to be racist.

    Similarly we have no problem with James Bond having a Scots, English, Irish or indeed Australian accent, having brown or blue eyes, chest hair or no chest hair, but if a black actor is ever cast in the role we all know how the usual suspects will react.

    More likely your brain registered it was historically inaccurate, just as you would have been amazed if Kunta Kinte in Roots had been played by a white actor. Just your woke self jumping on the bandwagon and then trying to get your racist smear in at the end without having the courage to say that you meant white racists.

    Thanks for that Malc. Love you too.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    Carnyx said:

    » show previous quotes
    UK subjects.

    LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.

    I hadn't thought of that - and what if it is made illegal for people to stand on both constituency and list seats? (Or forbidden by the party, pour encourager lescurrent incumbents.)
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
    Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    Brom said:
    Or like that well known radical lefty Scott Morrison, the Australian PM who has raised similar concerns with the US.
This discussion has been closed.