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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another pollster has Johnson dropping sharply in its leader ra

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another pollster has Johnson dropping sharply in its leader ratings while Starmer takes a net lead

Ipsos-MORI, Britain’s oldest polling firm, has just produced its latest leader ratings and the trend is very similar to what we’ve seen from other pollsters. Johnson has taken a hit while Starmer has continued to rise.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    edited June 2020
    'Tis but a flesh wound.

    Almost forgot, first like SKS.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    I know what could get BJ's ratings buoyant again.

    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1268850454752038913?s=20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,099
    edited June 2020
    Third, like the Man who will not be seen in cricket stadia for a bit longer.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited June 2020
    The bigger personality always wins... and it's 64-30 to Boris

    Have we polling on this from previous leader clashes?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    People were more favourable to Boris when they thought he might snuff it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    isam said:

    The bigger personality always wins... and it's 64-30 to Boris

    Have we polling on this from previous leader clashes?

    That'd explain loads about where we currently are. People preferring bullshit over competence. You're probably right though :/
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....
    Not true. Barnier is trying to get Boris to agree to things that were not agreed to in the PD.

    Take Level Playing Field for instance, the PD says there should be LPF commitments commensurate with the type of free trade agreement agreed. Fair enough.

    The UK have responded in this phase of negotiations saying basically "OK we want a Canadian style Trade Agreement with Canadian style LPF agreements as you've already agreed with Canada". That meets the LPF commitments agreed in the WA.

    Barnier responds by saying "No" and trying to force something unprecedented that was never part of the PD.

    The PD doesn't mean we're committed to whatever form of LPF that the EU wants us to agree to.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited June 2020
    On topic, I wouldn't expect Boris to get back to his April peak, which was a freak number resulting from the 9/11 effect where when a leader massively fails and causes lots of voters to die, the voters who are still alive rally behind them as they belatedly and incompetently engage with the enemy.

    I'd say the Jan numbers represent something more like normal service.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    25c last week, now sleeting in the Yorkshire Dales.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    The bigger personality always wins... and it's 64-30 to Boris

    Have we polling on this from previous leader clashes?

    That'd explain loads about where we currently are. People preferring bullshit over competence. You're probably right though :/
    Hang on. Was May a bigger personality than Corbyn?
    What does that metric even mean?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.
    ...the point is she was...
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....
    Not true. Barnier is trying to get Boris to agree to things that were not agreed to in the PD.

    Take Level Playing Field for instance, the PD says there should be LPF commitments commensurate with the type of free trade agreement agreed. Fair enough.

    The UK have responded in this phase of negotiations saying basically "OK we want a Canadian style Trade Agreement with Canadian style LPF agreements as you've already agreed with Canada". That meets the LPF commitments agreed in the WA.

    Barnier responds by saying "No" and trying to force something unprecedented that was never part of the PD.

    The PD doesn't mean we're committed to whatever form of LPF that the EU wants us to agree to.
    The reverse is equally possible - Canada is LPF lite i.e. far lighter than was anticipated within the PD.

    The problem is that it wasn't explicitly defined in the PD only roughly sketched out which means it's likely both interpretations are valid.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,099
    FPT:
    Andrew said:


    As a matter of interest, has any PBer ever seen or heard of a cyclist being nicked for speeding?

    It's going to become much more common as battery-assisted bikes become widespread - these are very rapidly improving in weight and performance, so will become quite common in future. They have software limits to the speed assist, but often are quite easy to hack to 40mph+ boost in some cases.
    It would probably be "no insurance" or "no tax" in those circs, as such would be a motorbike not a bicycle. Ebikes have an assist speed limit of 15mph.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited June 2020
    isam said:

    The bigger personality always wins... and it's 64-30 to Boris

    Have we polling on this from previous leader clashes?


    You mean like Clem Attlee versus Churchill at GE1945

    Or Wilson versus Heath at GE1970

    Or Kinnock versus Major at GE1992

  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    Desperate times and stupid deadlines leave Boris with no choice but to ignore what was previously stated and accept whatever terms he can to have something to show for it.

    See November when things offered and completely rejected by May are presented by Boris as a great victory.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.

    It may be news to you, but she wasn't replaced because she promised that the UK would not lower its animal welfare standards in order to secure a trade deal with Donald Trump.

  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336
    edited June 2020

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    ...oh that's all right then....
    I keep forgetting that whenever anyone tries to put a point of view they come up against the "little Englander brexiteer f**k off to europe if you like it so much" brick wall!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....
    Not true. Barnier is trying to get Boris to agree to things that were not agreed to in the PD.

    Take Level Playing Field for instance, the PD says there should be LPF commitments commensurate with the type of free trade agreement agreed. Fair enough.

    The UK have responded in this phase of negotiations saying basically "OK we want a Canadian style Trade Agreement with Canadian style LPF agreements as you've already agreed with Canada". That meets the LPF commitments agreed in the WA.

    Barnier responds by saying "No" and trying to force something unprecedented that was never part of the PD.

    The PD doesn't mean we're committed to whatever form of LPF that the EU wants us to agree to.
    The reverse is equally possible - Canada is LPF lite i.e. far lighter than was anticipated within the PD.

    The problem is that it wasn't explicitly defined in the PD only roughly sketched out which means it's likely both interpretations are valid.
    Nothing in the PD says the LPF will be heavier than what Canada got, though certainly that may be what Barnier meant it isn't what they'd agreed.

    Furthermore if the EU wanted to determine these issues in the prior stage we could have done so. The UK wanted to sort out these issues in the prior stage of negotiations, it was the EU's desire to sort out the legally binding Withdrawal Agreement on the EU's choice of matters first. It was the EU's desire to not decide these trade matters in the prior stage.

    Either way its abundantly clear there's absolutely ZERO reason to extend transition. There's no point extending if you can't even get an agreement on where you want to reach.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited June 2020
    April 2015

    "Good polling news for Labour, as three consecutive polls suggest the party has pulled ahead. Survation shows Labour four points ahead of the Tories (35 per cent to 31 per cent), Panelbase has it six points ahead (37 per cent to 31 per cent), and TNS gives the party a three-point lead (33 per cent to 31 per cent).

    Survation also shows Ed Miliband beating David Cameron in net approval ratings for the first time."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/ed-miliband-overtakes-david-cameron-approval-ratings-labour-pulls-ahead-polls
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    That's could an agreement - both sides reach a decision based on their red lines. For the EU there are red lines that we won't accept which means No Deal and a very bleak future for those people who don't sell invisible exports..
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Johnson needs to heed the clarion call of business groups like the CBI and....er......oh
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    We reported earlier on that appeal by the husband of railworker Belly Mujinga, who died after being spat at in Victoria Station*.

    Now the Crown Prosecution Service has been asked to review evidence into her coronavirus-related death in "recognition of wider public interest", although the case is not being reopened, the police said.

    The man alleged to have spat at Mujinga, 47, who died with Covid-19 on 5 April, claimed to have coronavirus.

    But, following "extensive inquiries", British Transport Police (BTP) concluded last month the attack did not lead to her death.

    The force also said no further action would be taken against a 57-year-old man interviewed by officers.

    The BBC understands that the man, who was the main suspect, had a negative antibody test in the time after the incident.

    -----------------

    What a waste of time? It has been investigated and the crucial thing is that the thug hasn't had coronavirus, so the initial story can't be true.

    What are they going to say to the husband, who clearly doesn't accept the initial investigation? We have looked again, and it is still true. And will he accept that then?

    * Furthermore, the investigation failed to find that she was even spat at during the confrontation.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, you wonder who could have a favourable opinion of this lazy out-of-his-depth incompetent. Clearly Brexit acts like beer goggles for Leavers.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,459
    tlg86 said:

    People were more favourable to Boris when they thought he might snuff it.

    Was that from Raabaphobia?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    If Britain is run by liars and cheats then its a good thing surely. All the better to deal with the liars and cheats than run the rest of the world.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    Desperate times and stupid deadlines leave Boris with no choice but to ignore what was previously stated and accept whatever terms he can to have something to show for it.

    See November when things offered and completely rejected by May are presented by Boris as a great victory.
    Boris negotiated that Stormont could unilaterally terminate the special arrangements he agreed.

    When did May negotiate that Stormont could unilaterally terminate the backstop?

    Citation needed please. Or are you telling fibs?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    We reported earlier on that appeal by the husband of railworker Belly Mujinga, who died after being spat at in Victoria Station.

    Now the Crown Prosecution Service has been asked to review evidence into her coronavirus-related death in "recognition of wider public interest", although the case is not being reopened, the police said.

    The man alleged to have spat at Mujinga, 47, who died with Covid-19 on 5 April, claimed to have coronavirus.

    But, following "extensive inquiries", British Transport Police (BTP) concluded last month the attack did not lead to her death.

    The force also said no further action would be taken against a 57-year-old man interviewed by officers.

    The BBC understands that the man, who was the main suspect, had a negative antibody test in the time after the incident.

    -----------------

    What a waste of time? It has been investigated and the crucial thing is that the thug hasn't had coronavirus, so the initial story can't be true.

    Sounds like it'll be a quick review then.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,705

    I know what could get BJ's ratings buoyant again.

    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1268850454752038913?s=20

    We need a national monument to distancing. Looks like this might work.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    RobD said:

    We reported earlier on that appeal by the husband of railworker Belly Mujinga, who died after being spat at in Victoria Station.

    Now the Crown Prosecution Service has been asked to review evidence into her coronavirus-related death in "recognition of wider public interest", although the case is not being reopened, the police said.

    The man alleged to have spat at Mujinga, 47, who died with Covid-19 on 5 April, claimed to have coronavirus.

    But, following "extensive inquiries", British Transport Police (BTP) concluded last month the attack did not lead to her death.

    The force also said no further action would be taken against a 57-year-old man interviewed by officers.

    The BBC understands that the man, who was the main suspect, had a negative antibody test in the time after the incident.

    -----------------

    What a waste of time? It has been investigated and the crucial thing is that the thug hasn't had coronavirus, so the initial story can't be true.

    Sounds like it'll be a quick review then.
    I honestly don't see its purpose. If the husband doesn't believe the initial investigation, why would he believe this new one?

    Unfortunately the reality of working in a customer facing role during a pandemic means you are extremely exposed to coming into contact with carriers and your colleagues more likely to have, and so it could have been any number of interactions. And can also still be away from work.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    We reported earlier on that appeal by the husband of railworker Belly Mujinga, who died after being spat at in Victoria Station*.

    Now the Crown Prosecution Service has been asked to review evidence into her coronavirus-related death in "recognition of wider public interest", although the case is not being reopened, the police said.

    The man alleged to have spat at Mujinga, 47, who died with Covid-19 on 5 April, claimed to have coronavirus.

    But, following "extensive inquiries", British Transport Police (BTP) concluded last month the attack did not lead to her death.

    The force also said no further action would be taken against a 57-year-old man interviewed by officers.

    The BBC understands that the man, who was the main suspect, had a negative antibody test in the time after the incident.

    -----------------

    What a waste of time? It has been investigated and the crucial thing is that the thug hasn't had coronavirus, so the initial story can't be true.

    What are they going to say to the husband, who clearly doesn't accept the initial investigation? We have looked again, and it is still true. And will he accept that then?

    * Furthermore, the investigation failed to find that she was even spat at during the confrontation.

    The initial story can be true. The story was that he spat at her and said he had coronavirus.

    Doesn't mean he couldn't have lied.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

    So like how Canada agreed LPF conditions when it negotiated a trade deal with the EU? Which the UK is offering to copy and paste.

    Something like that, is that what you mean?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,459

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

    But we want to eat cake and still have it. It is SOOOO unfair.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited June 2020

    eek said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    Desperate times and stupid deadlines leave Boris with no choice but to ignore what was previously stated and accept whatever terms he can to have something to show for it.

    See November when things offered and completely rejected by May are presented by Boris as a great victory.
    Boris negotiated that Stormont could unilaterally terminate the special arrangements he agreed.

    When did May negotiate that Stormont could unilaterally terminate the backstop?

    Citation needed please. Or are you telling fibs?
    May rejected it out of hand because she didn't want Northern Ireland to be treated differently to the rest of the UK (a key DUP requirement). So there was no need to negotiate special arrangements as they were not acceptable to a Unionist.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    We never committed to what Barnier wants us to commit to now.

    And the reason we never did is because Barnier insisted that what we're discussing now couldn't be discussed then. That was the EU's choice not ours. May's government wanted to tackle these free trade issues and the EU said no.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,944
    OT thoughts on the tracing app

    This blog entry makes the point (in the context of domestic abuse) that even well-intentioned apps can be misused.

    A couple of examples:

    The connected doorbell app that allows you to remotely see who is at the door was built with safety in mind. However, the motion capture functionality can be used to monitor and entrap victims, with instant notifications being sent when an attempt is made to leave the home.

    The credit card app that provides purchase notifications was built to help combat fraud. However, its use can give enhanced control over victims with details of their spending being constantly monitored.

    https://www.ibm.com/blogs/policy/design-principles-to-combat-domestic-abuse/
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

    So like how Canada agreed LPF conditions when it negotiated a trade deal with the EU? Which the UK is offering to copy and paste.

    Something like that, is that what you mean?
    It is that simple :)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883

    I know what could get BJ's ratings buoyant again.

    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1268850454752038913?s=20

    The Britannia Satellite Positioning system that only last year had the Fireplace Salesman enjoying his first high quality erection since 2011 has also quietly been shelved.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited June 2020

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020

    We reported earlier on that appeal by the husband of railworker Belly Mujinga, who died after being spat at in Victoria Station*.

    Now the Crown Prosecution Service has been asked to review evidence into her coronavirus-related death in "recognition of wider public interest", although the case is not being reopened, the police said.

    The man alleged to have spat at Mujinga, 47, who died with Covid-19 on 5 April, claimed to have coronavirus.

    But, following "extensive inquiries", British Transport Police (BTP) concluded last month the attack did not lead to her death.

    The force also said no further action would be taken against a 57-year-old man interviewed by officers.

    The BBC understands that the man, who was the main suspect, had a negative antibody test in the time after the incident.

    -----------------

    What a waste of time? It has been investigated and the crucial thing is that the thug hasn't had coronavirus, so the initial story can't be true.

    What are they going to say to the husband, who clearly doesn't accept the initial investigation? We have looked again, and it is still true. And will he accept that then?

    * Furthermore, the investigation failed to find that she was even spat at during the confrontation.

    The initial story can be true. The story was that he spat at her and said he had coronavirus.

    Doesn't mean he couldn't have lied.
    No, the initial media reporting was that she died after contracting CV from an confrontation with an individual with coronavirus who spat at her.

    During the BLM, a BBC reporter incorrectly repeated this and the protest included a comparison of this case vs one of a white police officer, who was spat at by a coronavirus positive thug, and the thug went down, as an example of racial discrimination.

    It is like comparing Michael Brown case with George Floyd when it comes to police brutality of African Americans in the US.

    The BTP investigation found no evidence of being spat at, and absolutely crucially the suspect hasn't had coronavirus, so she couldn't have died from this altercation, thus the comparison to the handling of case of the white police officer is not true.

    In these heighten times, it is crucial we get the facts correct. We don't want another Mark Duggan type incident, where people's anger is falsely fuelled by reports of a nice young family man gunned down by the police, when the truth was an armed career criminal.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited June 2020

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    We never committed to what Barnier wants us to commit to now.

    And the reason we never did is because Barnier insisted that what we're discussing now couldn't be discussed then. That was the EU's choice not ours. May's government wanted to tackle these free trade issues and the EU said no.
    Britain committed to an approach. Was that done in bad faith?
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    eek said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....
    Not true. Barnier is trying to get Boris to agree to things that were not agreed to in the PD.

    Take Level Playing Field for instance, the PD says there should be LPF commitments commensurate with the type of free trade agreement agreed. Fair enough.

    The UK have responded in this phase of negotiations saying basically "OK we want a Canadian style Trade Agreement with Canadian style LPF agreements as you've already agreed with Canada". That meets the LPF commitments agreed in the WA.

    Barnier responds by saying "No" and trying to force something unprecedented that was never part of the PD.

    The PD doesn't mean we're committed to whatever form of LPF that the EU wants us to agree to.
    The reverse is equally possible - Canada is LPF lite i.e. far lighter than was anticipated within the PD.

    The problem is that it wasn't explicitly defined in the PD only roughly sketched out which means it's likely both interpretations are valid.
    Nothing in the PD says the LPF will be heavier than what Canada got
    Really? 77. Given the Union and the United Kingdom's geographic proximity and economic interdependence, the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    Desperate times and stupid deadlines leave Boris with no choice but to ignore what was previously stated and accept whatever terms he can to have something to show for it.

    See November when things offered and completely rejected by May are presented by Boris as a great victory.
    Boris negotiated that Stormont could unilaterally terminate the special arrangements he agreed.

    When did May negotiate that Stormont could unilaterally terminate the backstop?

    Citation needed please. Or are you telling fibs?
    May rejected it out of hand because she didn't want Northern Ireland to be treated differently to the rest of the UK (a key DUP requirement). So there was no need to negotiate special arrangements as they were not acceptable to a Unionist.
    Which was stupid, because NI has a devolved administration and it makes sense to devolve special arrangements consent to that devolved administration in the long term.

    So Boris negotiated something May didn't even consider then didn't he?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    We reported earlier on that appeal by the husband of railworker Belly Mujinga, who died after being spat at in Victoria Station*.

    Now the Crown Prosecution Service has been asked to review evidence into her coronavirus-related death in "recognition of wider public interest", although the case is not being reopened, the police said.

    The man alleged to have spat at Mujinga, 47, who died with Covid-19 on 5 April, claimed to have coronavirus.

    But, following "extensive inquiries", British Transport Police (BTP) concluded last month the attack did not lead to her death.

    The force also said no further action would be taken against a 57-year-old man interviewed by officers.

    The BBC understands that the man, who was the main suspect, had a negative antibody test in the time after the incident.

    -----------------

    What a waste of time? It has been investigated and the crucial thing is that the thug hasn't had coronavirus, so the initial story can't be true.

    What are they going to say to the husband, who clearly doesn't accept the initial investigation? We have looked again, and it is still true. And will he accept that then?

    * Furthermore, the investigation failed to find that she was even spat at during the confrontation.

    The initial story can be true. The story was that he spat at her and said he had coronavirus.

    Doesn't mean he couldn't have lied.
    If there was any evidence of him spitting at someone, he’d surely have been charged with assault?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

    I agree entirely
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    You really need face to face negotiations. The remote ones caused by the virus are part of the problem . In terms of level playing field commitments not sure why the UK refuses to keep the current EU minimum for workers and the environment as the government keeps telling everyone they won’t be lowering them below that level , unless of course they’re lying !
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Bozo needs another baby bounce to boost his poll ratings.

    The good news for him is that fathering children is probably the one thing he is quite good at.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 297
    I think that Alok Sharma is one of the less useless ministers, and I wish him well. His coronavirus test was announced to be negative, but so it is in 30% of Covid19 cases. If this really was just "a bad case of hayfever" as one MP suggested, he would have been wheeled out on public show.
    Clearly Cummings and Boris (or Cummings and Goings) and Moggy know what a disaster it would be if he had been announced to be positive. Perhaps he has just been told to hide and they are hoping for the best. Perhaps the test wasn't negative (he's as entitled to medical privacy, as we all are).
    If he does have Covid19 he is in a high risk group, BAME, male, middle aged and overweight. I suppose they could always bury him at sea if all else fails. Poor chap.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916

    I know what could get BJ's ratings buoyant again.

    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1268850454752038913?s=20

    Is this what the bridge that will never get built is meant to look like? The truck's on the wrong side of the bloody road for a start.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier three years ago.
    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/slide_presented_by_barnier_at_euco_15-12-2017.pdf
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid
    So you think Leave campaigners like Michael Gove who said we would be inside the trade zone that stretches from Iceland to the Russian border were lying, and all Leave voters knew they were lying?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    "Videos of police brutality during protests shock US"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52932611
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

    So like how Canada agreed LPF conditions when it negotiated a trade deal with the EU? Which the UK is offering to copy and paste.

    Something like that, is that what you mean?

    I cannot second guess the EU's motives. However, I suspect that if it doesn't believe that what the UK is offering is in its best interests it will not agree to what the UK is offering. Our choice is then to back down or walk away and to live with the consequences. It looks like we are going to walk away. I think we are best off doing it sooner rather than later as that way we may stand more chance of mitigating at least some of the harm.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,459

    I know what could get BJ's ratings buoyant again.

    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1268850454752038913?s=20

    Is this what the bridge that will never get built is meant to look like? The truck's on the wrong side of the bloody road for a start.
    I blame Barnier and the BBC. It is an elite conspiracy to get us to drive on the wrong side!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited June 2020

    I know what could get BJ's ratings buoyant again.

    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1268850454752038913?s=20

    Is this what the bridge that will never get built is meant to look like? The truck's on the wrong side of the bloody road for a start.
    I thought it was a photo of the big bridge in Denmark, which would explain the location of the lorry.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    I’ll ask again, since you ignored my question and then spun your own fantasy:

    You believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.

    Can you point me in the direction of the agreement between Britain and the EU that contains Canada-style terms? Thanks in advance.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.


    We don't want a Canada-style deal, though. What we want is Canada, except in areas where we do not want Canada - such as in financial services and rules of origin.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.

    It may be news to you, but she wasn't replaced because she promised that the UK would not lower its animal welfare standards in order to secure a trade deal with Donald Trump.

    Apparently there's a statute of limitations on Tory promises.

    https://twitter.com/thomasforth/status/1268657543280295938?s=20
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    franklyn said:

    I think that Alok Sharma is one of the less useless ministers, and I wish him well. His coronavirus test was announced to be negative, but so it is in 30% of Covid19 cases. If this really was just "a bad case of hayfever" as one MP suggested, he would have been wheeled out on public show.
    Clearly Cummings and Boris (or Cummings and Goings) and Moggy know what a disaster it would be if he had been announced to be positive. Perhaps he has just been told to hide and they are hoping for the best. Perhaps the test wasn't negative (he's as entitled to medical privacy, as we all are).
    If he does have Covid19 he is in a high risk group, BAME, male, middle aged and overweight. I suppose they could always bury him at sea if all else fails. Poor chap.

    Sorry but that is nonsense

    He says he had either hayfever or a type of food poisoning from a sandwich

    He is fine
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.
    So her assurances mean nothing as they weren’t made by the government as it is currently structured.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid
    So you think Leave campaigners like Michael Gove who said we would be inside the trade zone that stretches from Iceland to the Russian border were lying, and all Leave voters knew they were lying?
    I am not resurrecting tired old arguments

    We voted to leave and that requires us to be free to set our own laws, tax and state aid rules
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.


    We don't want a Canada-style deal, though. What we want is Canada, except in areas where we do not want Canada - such as in financial services and rules of origin.

    Okay, so let’s use Canada as the starting point of the negotiations and work from there.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    RobD said:

    I know what could get BJ's ratings buoyant again.

    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1268850454752038913?s=20

    Is this what the bridge that will never get built is meant to look like? The truck's on the wrong side of the bloody road for a start.
    I thought it was a photo of the big bridge in Denmark, which would explain the location of the lorry.
    Great, now I've got that bloody song in my head.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.
    ...the point is she was...
    No, it really isn't.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    I’ll ask again, since you ignored my question and then spun your own fantasy:

    You believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    And I will ask are you happy Barnier ratted on Canada

    And we can go on like this forever as on the EU we will never agree
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Rexel56 said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....
    Not true. Barnier is trying to get Boris to agree to things that were not agreed to in the PD.

    Take Level Playing Field for instance, the PD says there should be LPF commitments commensurate with the type of free trade agreement agreed. Fair enough.

    The UK have responded in this phase of negotiations saying basically "OK we want a Canadian style Trade Agreement with Canadian style LPF agreements as you've already agreed with Canada". That meets the LPF commitments agreed in the WA.

    Barnier responds by saying "No" and trying to force something unprecedented that was never part of the PD.

    The PD doesn't mean we're committed to whatever form of LPF that the EU wants us to agree to.
    The reverse is equally possible - Canada is LPF lite i.e. far lighter than was anticipated within the PD.

    The problem is that it wasn't explicitly defined in the PD only roughly sketched out which means it's likely both interpretations are valid.
    Nothing in the PD says the LPF will be heavier than what Canada got
    Really? 77. Given the Union and the United Kingdom's geographic proximity and economic interdependence, the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field.
    Yes we would need to agree a level playing field.

    CETA LPF conditions were a pre-existing precedent when we agreed to that. Where does it rule out CETA LPF conditions? Where did we agree to go further than existing precedence?

    Furthermore you've not even quoted the right paragraph and have missed some rather key words in the actual agreement.

    XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION
    77. Given the Union and the United Kingdom's geographic proximity and economic interdependence, the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field. The precise nature of commitments should be commensurate with the scope and depth of the future relationship and the economic connectedness of the Parties. These commitments should prevent distortions of trade and unfair competitive advantages. To that end, the Parties should uphold the common high standards applicable in the Union and the United Kingdom at the end of the transition period in the areas of state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environment, climate change, and relevant tax matters. The Parties should in particular maintain a robust and comprehensive framework for competition and state aid control that prevents undue distortion of trade and competition; commit to the principles of good governance in the area of taxation and to the curbing of harmful tax practices; and maintain environmental, social and employment standards at the current high levels provided by the existing common standards. In so doing, they should rely on appropriate and relevant Union and international standards, and include appropriate mechanisms to ensure effective implementation domestically, enforcement and dispute settlement. The future relationship should also promote adherence to and effective implementation of relevant internationally agreed principles and rules in these domains, including the Paris Agreement.


    The agreement specifically says that the precise nature of the commitments haven't been agreed yet and will need to be commensurate with the future relationship. The UK has opted for a future relationship akin to CETA so in the words of the Political Declaration the LPF would need to be commensurate with that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.
    This is highly disingenuous. What we are asking for goes well beyond a Canada-style agreement.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nichomar said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.
    So her assurances mean nothing as they weren’t made by the government as it is currently structured.
    Yes.

    Plus the nature of compromise is it always goes against what people originally said in some areas, if it didn't it wouldn't be a compromise.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid
    So you think Leave campaigners like Michael Gove who said we would be inside the trade zone that stretches from Iceland to the Russian border were lying, and all Leave voters knew they were lying?
    I am not resurrecting tired old arguments

    We voted to leave and that requires us to be free to set our own laws, tax and state aid rules
    Bollocks to Brexit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.

    It may be news to you, but she wasn't replaced because she promised that the UK would not lower its animal welfare standards in order to secure a trade deal with Donald Trump.

    Apparently there's a statute of limitations on Tory promises.

    https://twitter.com/thomasforth/status/1268657543280295938?s=20
    Labour promises run for ever.

    Like they've abolished boom and bust. How well would that one have fared on contact with Covid-19?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.
    This is highly disingenuous. What we are asking for goes well beyond a Canada-style agreement.
    Then the EU can push back on whatever goes beyond if they want.

    That's not what they want though. Oh well. I see you're ignoring the fact this whole timetabling and not settling this sooner was their preference.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    DavidL said:
    It'll be boomtime for office gear sales in a couple of months as people realise they can't quite squeeze into the ones they last wore at the start of lockdown.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    isam said:

    April 2015

    "Good polling news for Labour, as three consecutive polls suggest the party has pulled ahead. Survation shows Labour four points ahead of the Tories (35 per cent to 31 per cent), Panelbase has it six points ahead (37 per cent to 31 per cent), and TNS gives the party a three-point lead (33 per cent to 31 per cent).

    Survation also shows Ed Miliband beating David Cameron in net approval ratings for the first time."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/ed-miliband-overtakes-david-cameron-approval-ratings-labour-pulls-ahead-polls

    Cameron beat Miliband 40-20 on personality


  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    A lot of nonsense on the previous thread about "white privilege".
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    DavidL said:
    Quite. So lets open Britain up now. Yesterday. The day before yesterday.

    We might save something.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

    So like how Canada agreed LPF conditions when it negotiated a trade deal with the EU? Which the UK is offering to copy and paste.

    Something like that, is that what you mean?

    I cannot second guess the EU's motives. However, I suspect that if it doesn't believe that what the UK is offering is in its best interests it will not agree to what the UK is offering. Our choice is then to back down or walk away and to live with the consequences. It looks like we are going to walk away. I think we are best off doing it sooner rather than later as that way we may stand more chance of mitigating at least some of the harm.

    I agree 100%

    I also think if we're going to walk away then doing so under the cloak of COVID19 is the best possible timing.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Rexel56 said:

    25c last week, now sleeting in the Yorkshire Dales.

    Hailstones for us right now
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.
    This is highly disingenuous. What we are asking for goes well beyond a Canada-style agreement.
    Then the EU can push back on whatever goes beyond if they want.

    That's not what they want though. Oh well. I see you're ignoring the fact this whole timetabling and not settling this sooner was their preference.
    We agreed a treaty which proposes the framework of an association agreement as the structure of the future relationship.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    The bigger personality always wins... and it's 64-30 to Boris

    Have we polling on this from previous leader clashes?

    That'd explain loads about where we currently are. People preferring bullshit over competence. You're probably right though :/
    Hang on. Was May a bigger personality than Corbyn?
    What does that metric even mean?
    Metric ?
    It's an imperial pint of piffle.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    DavidL said:
    The only question is whether we get further waves of any significance. We may not, if the "potency" of the virus has lessened, as some experts have said it might have.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    The bigger personality always wins... and it's 64-30 to Boris

    Have we polling on this from previous leader clashes?


    You mean like Clem Attlee versus Churchill at GE1945

    Or Wilson versus Heath at GE1970

    Or Kinnock versus Major at GE1992

    No I mean in modern times, where reality tv is king.

    Since 97 the personality has won every time except 2017, I'm checking the polling now to see if it backs up my theory
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited June 2020

    DavidL said:
    Quite. So lets open Britain up now. Yesterday. The day before yesterday.

    We might save something.
    I still think the lockdown should only ever have applied to people with serious conditions and the very elderly. Shutting down the economy will cause deaths.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.
    This is highly disingenuous. What we are asking for goes well beyond a Canada-style agreement.
    Then the EU can push back on whatever goes beyond if they want.

    That's not what they want though. Oh well. I see you're ignoring the fact this whole timetabling and not settling this sooner was their preference.
    We agreed a treaty which proposes the framework of an association agreement as the structure of the future relationship.
    No it doesn't.

    The Political Declaration was not legally binding and it doesn't propose that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    This may be news to you but Theresa Villiers isn't DEFRA Secretary anymore.

    It may be news to you, but she wasn't replaced because she promised that the UK would not lower its animal welfare standards in order to secure a trade deal with Donald Trump.

    Apparently there's a statute of limitations on Tory promises.

    https://twitter.com/thomasforth/status/1268657543280295938?s=20
    At 22:01 on polling day.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade

    Nope, the UK can do as it wishes. But if it wants a trade deal with the EU it will have to agree to certain conditions. If it doesn't, there will be no deal. In the same way, the UK will have to lower its animal welfare standards if it wants to do a trade deal with the US. Our power is the power to say no. We then live with the consequences.

    So like how Canada agreed LPF conditions when it negotiated a trade deal with the EU? Which the UK is offering to copy and paste.

    Something like that, is that what you mean?

    I cannot second guess the EU's motives. However, I suspect that if it doesn't believe that what the UK is offering is in its best interests it will not agree to what the UK is offering. Our choice is then to back down or walk away and to live with the consequences. It looks like we are going to walk away. I think we are best off doing it sooner rather than later as that way we may stand more chance of mitigating at least some of the harm.

    I agree 100%

    I also think if we're going to walk away then doing so under the cloak of COVID19 is the best possible timing.
    What do you expect the Covid-19 situation to be in the UK and EU27 in December?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid
    So you think Leave campaigners like Michael Gove who said we would be inside the trade zone that stretches from Iceland to the Russian border were lying, and all Leave voters knew they were lying?
    I am not resurrecting tired old arguments

    We voted to leave and that requires us to be free to set our own laws, tax and state aid rules
    Bollocks to Brexit.
    Ah, how sweet - a reminder of the Liberal Democrats.

    RIP.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid
    So you think Leave campaigners like Michael Gove who said we would be inside the trade zone that stretches from Iceland to the Russian border were lying, and all Leave voters knew they were lying?
    I am not resurrecting tired old arguments

    We voted to leave and that requires us to be free to set our own laws, tax and state aid rules
    Bollocks to Brexit.
    Ah, how sweet - a reminder of the Liberal Democrats.

    RIP.
    The Lib whos?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    To be honest time to walk away

    Barnier's arrogance and attitude is going to collapse these talks
    12 months ago I had this opinion and was considered extreme here for doing so. It seems to be becoming mainstream now.
    ....yet it is Johnson who hasn't stood by 4 statements he agreed to in the WA?....

    That the Tories have lied consistently on Brexit for a number of years really shouldn't surprise anyone. Some things they wil get away with. Others will be less easy to explain away ...
    https://twitter.com/BBCCountryfile/status/1215284448129880066

    I'm not surprised Barnier is pissed off with us. How can you negotiate with liars and cheats.
    Barnier's problem, like many others, is he has not accepted we are leaving and wants to restrict the UK's ability to make it own laws and trade
    So you believe that Britain should rat on commitments it signed up to last year?
    The UK voted to leave, not to be tied to EU law on tax and state aid and were originally offered a Canada style deal

    The EU in your words 'ratted' on it

    There are no good outcomes here and as Germany takes over the EU presidency the word out of Germany that Merkel wants a deal and by September is promising

    There is no point in extended the deadlock paying billions more into the EU
    who offered a Canada style agreement\?
    Barnier. On a number of occasions, right up until the day we said yes, that’s what we want too.
    This is highly disingenuous. What we are asking for goes well beyond a Canada-style agreement.
    Then the EU can push back on whatever goes beyond if they want.

    That's not what they want though. Oh well. I see you're ignoring the fact this whole timetabling and not settling this sooner was their preference.
    We agreed a treaty which proposes the framework of an association agreement as the structure of the future relationship.
    No it doesn't.

    The Political Declaration was not legally binding and it doesn't propose that.
    Clause 120 does propose that.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf
This discussion has been closed.