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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Tale of Two Lawyers

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Tale of Two Lawyers

L’Affaire Cummings is over, its lasting significance, if any, yet to be determined. But there is one aspect of it, largely ignored by the media, worth exploring. It relates not to the PM or his advisor but to the Government’s two main legal advisors: the Attorney-General, Suella Braverman, and the Lord Chancellor/Secretary of State for Justice, Robert Buckland.

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Comments

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    edited June 2020
    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Third rate
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Brexit killed the Union.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Clearly Braverman overstepped the mark. But she is there to do exactly what she did - provide cover for the government in a way that someone such as Geoffrey Cox would not do. Her appointment was designed specifically for such occasions. There will be many others over the coming years.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,287
    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    That seems harsh. Selecting Bill Cash for any role at all is really extraordinary.

    I do agree with @Cyclefree’s piece though. Braverman has misjudged this and will hopefully learn from her mistake.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    If you read it on twitter it is probably bollocks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    She’s a lot prettier than Geoffrey Cox, you have to give her that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Brexit killed the Union.
    The union killed our EU membership. No union, no “Global Britain”, no conflation of the EU with the continent, no Empire 2.0.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,944
    The Attorney General should stay off Twitter. That would be my advice.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    The Attorney General should stay off Twitter. That would be my advice.

    Absolutely everyone should stay off Twitter. That would be mine.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    Who is Cummings? We need to be told. Voters have short memories...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    I thought he was being elevated to the Lords.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    I thought he was being elevated to the Lords.
    ..as a punishment?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,944
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    If you read it on twitter it is probably bollocks.
    Something is going on. It looks as if someone wants it to look as if Cummings is being eased out: not just this gong but also the new committees (spun for a day in the Telegraph as somehow weakening the Chief Spad) and a period of radio silence but whether that is wishful thinking by opponents or #ClassicDom is beyond my Kremlinology.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    Who is Cummings? We need to be told. Voters have short memories...
    He’s got an upcoming film called Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness. Originally due out in 2022, it seems to have been brought forward.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    I thought he was being elevated to the Lords.
    In a litter?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,944
    Re Brexit, Barnier and the WAPD. No idea. I doubt Boris has, either. There is nothing in his background that suggests he is a deep or even shallow thinker on international trade or cross-border arbitration. But remember Boris has coopted the significant Leavers into the Cabinet, which gives him a fair degree of cover.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence
    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the Nats blew it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865
    DavidL said:

    She’s a lot prettier than Geoffrey Cox, you have to give her that.

    So am I.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence
    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the Nats blew it.
    It's not got the heft of an Opinium sub sample, I'll give you that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence

    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the
    Nats blew it.
    Weird. I was sure that the official version was that they started miles behind and the brilliance of Mr Salmond came so close to getting them over the line.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence
    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the Nats blew it.
    It's not got the heft of an Opinium sub sample, I'll give you that.
    Which side of the argument is the Newspaper?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    DavidL said:

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence

    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the
    Nats blew it.
    Weird. I was sure that the official version was that they started miles behind and the brilliance of Mr Salmond came so close to getting them over the line.
    You have to wonder if Yes might have won if Alex Salmond had being solely focussed on the referendum and not being 'No Angel.'
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    I thought he was being elevated to the Lords.
    ..as a punishment?
    Approbation, elevation, castration.

    Although not as appropriate here since he isn't a rival.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    It's an interesting question, though. What if there are no lawyers in the governing party?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She's a lawyer, she read law at Queens', I think Queens might end up outdoing St John's for shite admissions, and St John's let in Richard Burgon.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    It's an interesting question, though. What if there are no lawyers in the governing party?
    Well Tony Blair's government's had no decent lawyers, his AGs were either an MP in his 70s, or people from the Lords.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence
    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the Nats blew it.
    It's not got the heft of an Opinium sub sample, I'll give you that.
    Which side of the argument is the Newspaper?
    The Herald is fairly anti indy but they're only reporting it. I doubt they can afford new toner for the office printer, let alone commissioning polls.

    I believe James Kelly ex of this parish paid for it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence
    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the Nats blew it.
    It's not got the heft of an Opinium sub sample, I'll give you that.
    We need a Facebook poll, they are the gold standard.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    If you read it on twitter it is probably bollocks.
    The knighthood is going to be for stress-testing Twitter when it's announced.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Any truth in the rumour that Cummings will be awarded a knighthood?

    If you read it on twitter it is probably bollocks.
    The knighthood is going to be for stress-testing Twitter when it's announced.
    He better get it for services to domestic tourism.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    A tale of two lawyers and I’m not one of them? For shame.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    Andy_JS said:
    We went several years without Boycott commentating on cricket, it did well.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865
    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    There was a time when ministers took their responsibilities seriously. Suella Braverman’s words show that those days are long past.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    Fair enough. I asked since it was obvious that Jeremy Hunt was not a doctor when Health Sec. other portfolios seem to get handed out on an equally random basis.

    ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    The former Attorney General Jeremy Wright notably said Cummings should resign
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048
    edited June 2020
    FPT
    Nigelb said:

    It wasn't just on the back of one report. It was a concerted effort to stop the drug becoming a gold standard treatment, because of Trump. Also because it's a cheap, widely available drug, with little profit for the wider drugs industry. But mostly because of Trump.

    That's a pretty strange characterisation.
    Yes, this was a crap and quite possibly fraudulent paper - but that is it.

    The reason most scientists were so riled with Trump is that he contributed to the ridiculous hype of a treatment, which led to a very large number of non randomised, unblinded and poorly designed trials. Which contributed nothing to medical knowledge, and actively hindered trials of other therapies.

    And irrespective of the dodgy paper, it seems exceedingly unlikely that this is going to be a particularly useful therapy, let alone a "gold standard".

    No clinical benefit from use of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalised patients with COVID-19
    https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19
    Professor Peter Horby and Professor Martin Landray, chief investigators of the RECOVERY Trial, said ‘In March this year, RECOVERY was established as a randomised clinical trial to test a range of potential drugs for COVID-19, including hydroxycholoroquine.

    ‘The trial has proceeded at unprecedented speed, enrolling over 11,000 patients from 175 NHS hospitals in the UK. Throughout this time, the independent Data Monitoring Committee has reviewed the emerging data about every two weeks to determine if there is evidence that would be strong enough to affect national and global treatment of COVID-19.

    ‘On Thursday 4 June, in response to a request from the UK Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), the independent Data Monitoring Committee conducted a further review of the data. Last night, the Committee recommended the chief investigators review the unblinded data on the hydroxychloroquine arm of the trial.

    ‘We have concluded that there is no beneficial effect of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised with COVID-19. We have therefore decided to stop enrolling participants to the hydroxychloroquine arm of the RECOVERY Trial with immediate effect. We are now releasing the preliminary results as they have important implications for patient care and public health....
    No it isn't a strange characterisation. Zinc and hydroxychloroquine is a combination treatment, with the zinc as the active partner - the whole point of the hydroxychloroquine is that it helps zinc to enter the cell and deal with the virus. Giving someone hydroxychloroquine alone is like giving someone a syringe without any antibiotics in it - of course it doesn't work. How many of the so-called 'studies' have looked at zinc and hydroxychloroquine in tandem? This is after doctors administering this combo have seen patients going from seriously ill to symptom free in 8 hours. Sorry but the Doctors who design these studies aren't stupid. For this to be totally missed and for the public to be told to 'move on nothing to see here' is morally reprehensible.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence

    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the
    Nats blew it.
    Weird. I was sure that the official version was that they started miles behind and the brilliance of Mr Salmond came so close to getting them over the line.
    Literally everyone dismissed the poll as having a non standard design and leading questions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    43% of Americans apparently, which would still be more voting for Trump than Bush Snr got in 1992 or Dole in 1996

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1268939404896239618?s=20
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence

    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the
    Nats blew it.
    Weird. I was sure that the official version was that they started miles behind and the brilliance of Mr Salmond came so close to getting them over the line.
    Literally everyone dismissed the poll as having a non standard design and leading questions.
    Not everyone, I was denounced on Twitter for having doubts about the methodology of that poll.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Only 48% of Scots back Yes on that poll including Don't Knows and just 34% of Scots want indyref2 within the next two years
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    Fair enough. I asked since it was obvious that Jeremy Hunt was not a doctor when Health Sec. other portfolios seem to get handed out on an equally random basis.

    ;)
    The A-G's job is to be the government's lawyer. The health secretary isn't the government's physician.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    edited June 2020
    This is turning into an utter shit storm in the North West.

    Tameside schools ‘strongly advised’ not to go back on Monday after new figures show North West ‘R’ number above 1.

    Bury council is also suggesting headteachers ‘reconsider’ a Monday return in the light of the latest data, while other councils are also considering whether to change their advice

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/tameside-schools-strongly-advised-not-18372513
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Brexit killed the Union.
    The union killed our EU membership. No union, no “Global Britain”, no conflation of the EU with the continent, no Empire 2.0.
    Cute that you imagine that you have any control over the outcome.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    Fair enough. I asked since it was obvious that Jeremy Hunt was not a doctor when Health Sec. other portfolios seem to get handed out on an equally random basis.

    ;)
    The A-G's job is to be the government's lawyer. The health secretary isn't the government's physician.
    Indeed. Imagine Suella Braverman being asked to give advice on the lawfulness of a war. She is far too much in thrall to her patron to give valuable advice. It’s not even clear that she understands what would be required of her in such circumstances.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Brexit killed the Union.
    The union killed our EU membership. No union, no “Global Britain”, no conflation of the EU with the continent, no Empire 2.0.
    Cute that you imagine that you have any control over the outcome.
    That's an odd interpretation of my comment.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    Fair enough. I asked since it was obvious that Jeremy Hunt was not a doctor when Health Sec. other portfolios seem to get handed out on an equally random basis.

    ;)
    The A-G's job is to be the government's lawyer. The health secretary isn't the government's physician.
    I wonder who is - they could do with a couple of psychiatrists IMO :D:D:D
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    43% of Americans apparently, which would still be more voting for Trump than Bush Snr got in 1992 or Dole in 1996

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1268939404896239618?s=20
    His fanbase and Republican partisans. Which is not additive.

    It's not nearly enough.

    I think you feel it too.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    Evening all :)

    Just a few musings this fine Friday evening - well, it is here in downtown East Ham.

    The US jobs numbers seem to have taken everyone by surprise. Will the same happen here? Why has this happened in the US and what is going on?

    I presume the individual states have taken the decision, virus notwithstanding, to re-open their economies and as the period of shutdown has been relatively short (if at all in some states), it's been possible for temporarily laid off staff to be re-hired.

    I presume the notion of temporary laid off is equivalent to our furlough and buried under the avalanche of positivity is the fact that permanent job losses actually rose by nearly 300,000.

    The US unemployment rate is still 13.3% which should be a reason not to break open the champagne as Wall Street seems to have done.

    As a comparison, US Services PMI went from 26.7 in April to 37.5 in May while UK Services PMI went from 13.4 in April to 29.0 in May.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She's my MP.
    She actually wants a No Deal Brexit and she keeps going on about 'Cultural Marxism'.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    43% of Americans apparently, which would still be more voting for Trump than Bush Snr got in 1992 or Dole in 1996

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1268939404896239618?s=20
    His fanbase and Republican partisans. Which is not additive.

    It's not nearly enough.

    I think you feel it too.
    I wish I had your sense of optimism. Trump will turn this around with the dirtiest most fraudulent campaign in history.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
    Do ordinary voting folk actually think like that?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
    So long as it isn't Diana Ross.
    I can't think Ivanka fronting a Motown girl group would be satisfying.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    43% of Americans apparently, which would still be more voting for Trump than Bush Snr got in 1992 or Dole in 1996

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1268939404896239618?s=20
    His fanbase and Republican partisans. Which is not additive.

    It's not nearly enough.

    I think you feel it too.
    I agree Trump will get 40 to 45% regardless.

    Biden should also get 48% regardless ie those who voted for Hillary and Kerry.


    The key swing voters are those who voted for Bush then Obama then Trump and those who voted for minor parties last time
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.
    You think it could cause a chain reaction?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    Fair enough. I asked since it was obvious that Jeremy Hunt was not a doctor when Health Sec. other portfolios seem to get handed out on an equally random basis.

    ;)
    The A-G's job is to be the government's lawyer. The health secretary isn't the government's physician.
    Indeed. Imagine Suella Braverman being asked to give advice on the lawfulness of a war. She is far too much in thrall to her patron to give valuable advice. It’s not even clear that she understands what would be required of her in such circumstances.
    Given the noises being made by the likes of Willie Walsh, she may be called into action in the not too distant future.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,722

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
    But wouldn't the Senate just approve whoever Trump nominates? (I know in 2016 they said because it was an election year they couldn't approve anyone, but I'm sure they would just pretend they never said that)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
    Do ordinary voting folk actually think like that?
    Enough of them do.

    Ginsburg and Breyer are in their 80s, Alito and Thomas in their 70s.

    It is entirely possible the winner of November's election gets to set the court's agenda for the next forty years with four new appointments.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just a few musings this fine Friday evening - well, it is here in downtown East Ham.

    The US jobs numbers seem to have taken everyone by surprise. Will the same happen here? Why has this happened in the US and what is going on?

    I presume the individual states have taken the decision, virus notwithstanding, to re-open their economies and as the period of shutdown has been relatively short (if at all in some states), it's been possible for temporarily laid off staff to be re-hired.

    I presume the notion of temporary laid off is equivalent to our furlough and buried under the avalanche of positivity is the fact that permanent job losses actually rose by nearly 300,000.

    The US unemployment rate is still 13.3% which should be a reason not to break open the champagne as Wall Street seems to have done.

    As a comparison, US Services PMI went from 26.7 in April to 37.5 in May while UK Services PMI went from 13.4 in April to 29.0 in May.

    I must say I was confused as to why the markets were expecting a rise in unemployment. Quite obviously a large amount of restrictions have been lifted and a frankly huge amount laid off. Therefore a significant number to be rehired.
    Am not aware of anywhere in the US tightening policy recently.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    DavidL said:

    I thought IDS picking Bill Cash to be Shadow Attorney General was the worst choice ever made in selecting someone to be AG/Shadow AG, but Boris Johnson has outdone that with the appointment of Suella Braverman.

    Is she actually a lawyer? Or can they just shove anyone into that role?
    She was a barrister for 10 years. Definitely a lawyer.

    She was a barrister specialising in planning, immigration and judicial review at 2 to 5 Grays Inn
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence

    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the
    Nats blew it.
    Weird. I was sure that the official version was that they started miles behind and the brilliance of Mr Salmond came so close to getting them over the line.
    Literally everyone dismissed the poll as having a non standard design and leading questions.
    Especially Unionists.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    You are truly the saviour of us all. Do you have a gourd we can worship?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
    There’s only two left of the original line up. Haven’t heard much about Diana Ross lately but Mary Wilson was on Dancing with the Stars last autumn and looked okay.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just a few musings this fine Friday evening - well, it is here in downtown East Ham.

    The US jobs numbers seem to have taken everyone by surprise. Will the same happen here? Why has this happened in the US and what is going on?

    I presume the individual states have taken the decision, virus notwithstanding, to re-open their economies and as the period of shutdown has been relatively short (if at all in some states), it's been possible for temporarily laid off staff to be re-hired.

    I presume the notion of temporary laid off is equivalent to our furlough and buried under the avalanche of positivity is the fact that permanent job losses actually rose by nearly 300,000.

    The US unemployment rate is still 13.3% which should be a reason not to break open the champagne as Wall Street seems to have done.

    As a comparison, US Services PMI went from 26.7 in April to 37.5 in May while UK Services PMI went from 13.4 in April to 29.0 in May.

    I think it is unlikely the same will happen here. Instead, it'll be a slow increase in the unemployment rate. In the US it was all front-loaded, but the furlough scheme is designed to keep people on the books, flattering the figures.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048
    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    I'm not sure how masks would be prevented any 'economic abyss', unless you think the rejuvenated mask industry was enough to pick up the slack.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    Can you send me a recent photo so I can carve a suitable idol of you to worship?

    EDIT: I see @Beibheirli_C beat me to the founding of this particular cult.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    DougSeal said:

    Can I you sent me a recent photo so I can carve a suitable idol of you to worship?

    Snap! :D:D
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    DougSeal said:

    Can I you sent me a recent photo so I can carve a suitable idol of you to worship?

    Snap! :D:D
    You were there first and are the High Priest of our new faith
  • Fpt

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1268952033996025861?s=20

    Let's get back to the good old days of calm, reasoned debate about Scottish indy.

    Excellent poll for those of us who support Scots independence
    Nah, Panelbase had Yes ahead one year before the referendum then the Nats blew it.
    Quote from John Curtice in September 2014:

    "Not that the Panelbase poll is a bad result for the Yes side. The 48% tally in the company’s previous poll, replicated today, did equal Panelbase’s all-time high for Yes, albeit that the tally first touched that level as long ago as June."
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can I you sent me a recent photo so I can carve a suitable idol of you to worship?

    Snap! :D:D
    You were there first and are the High Priest of our new faith
    You can be Chief Acolyte and polisher of The Gourd of Revelation :+1:
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,462
    DougSeal said:

    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    Can you send me a recent photo so I can carve a suitable idol of you to worship?

    EDIT: I see @Beibheirli_C beat me to the founding of this particular cult.
    Surely there is an eadric mask available by now? Reversible with different personalities either side of course.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can I you sent me a recent photo so I can carve a suitable idol of you to worship?

    Snap! :D:D
    You were there first and are the High Priest of our new faith
    There's someone on Twitter who is sporting a very snazzy mask.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    I'm not sure how masks would be prevented any 'economic abyss', unless you think the rejuvenated mask industry was enough to pick up the slack.
    I hate to swear so long before the lagershed, but JESUS H TWATTING CHRIST

    if we’d had (nshallah) Czech style death rates (they wore masks, minimal deaths) or (Deus vult!) Korea style death rates (mandatory masks, basically no dead) we would now be able to confidently open our economy, with some careful restrictions.

    As it happens, we have a moron political class advised by a cretinous scientific elite, and they told us not to wear masks for three months before completely changing their advice, so we are one of the most fucked countries in the world, still not taking minimal mask precautions, and our economy will now suffer thereby
    I hate to agree with you, as a matter of general principle, but on this you are absolutely correct.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    dixiedean said:


    I must say I was confused as to why the markets were expecting a rise in unemployment. Quite obviously a large amount of restrictions have been lifted and a frankly huge amount laid off. Therefore a significant number to be rehired.
    Am not aware of anywhere in the US tightening policy recently.

    That's a very fair point but the forecasts were for a loss of 8 million or so so a gain of 2.5 million did seem counter intuitive in extremis.

    I wonder if political pressure from Trump and the anti-lockdown brigade has meant that instead of a cautious and nuanced lifting of restrictions as we are doing the US has simply re-opened everything at once which has left businesses able to re-employ staff but what we don't yet know is whether they will be able to keep them on - will the consumers come back in the numbers required?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    FPT

    Nigelb said:

    It wasn't just on the back of one report. It was a concerted effort to stop the drug becoming a gold standard treatment, because of Trump. Also because it's a cheap, widely available drug, with little profit for the wider drugs industry. But mostly because of Trump.

    That's a pretty strange characterisation.
    Yes, this was a crap and quite possibly fraudulent paper - but that is it.

    The reason most scientists were so riled with Trump is that he contributed to the ridiculous hype of a treatment, which led to a very large number of non randomised, unblinded and poorly designed trials. Which contributed nothing to medical knowledge, and actively hindered trials of other therapies.

    And irrespective of the dodgy paper, it seems exceedingly unlikely that this is going to be a particularly useful therapy, let alone a "gold standard".

    No clinical benefit from use of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalised patients with COVID-19
    https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19
    Professor Peter Horby and Professor Martin Landray, chief investigators of the RECOVERY Trial, said ‘In March this year, RECOVERY was established as a randomised clinical trial to test a range of potential drugs for COVID-19, including hydroxycholoroquine.

    ‘The trial has proceeded at unprecedented speed, enrolling over 11,000 patients from 175 NHS hospitals in the UK. Throughout this time, the independent Data Monitoring Committee has reviewed the emerging data about every two weeks to determine if there is evidence that would be strong enough to affect national and global treatment of COVID-19.

    ‘On Thursday 4 June, in response to a request from the UK Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), the independent Data Monitoring Committee conducted a further review of the data. Last night, the Committee recommended the chief investigators review the unblinded data on the hydroxychloroquine arm of the trial.

    ‘We have concluded that there is no beneficial effect of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised with COVID-19. We have therefore decided to stop enrolling participants to the hydroxychloroquine arm of the RECOVERY Trial with immediate effect. We are now releasing the preliminary results as they have important implications for patient care and public health....
    No it isn't a strange characterisation. Zinc and hydroxychloroquine is a combination treatment, with the zinc as the active partner - the whole point of the hydroxychloroquine is that it helps zinc to enter the cell and deal with the virus. Giving someone hydroxychloroquine alone is like giving someone a syringe without any antibiotics in it - of course it doesn't work. How many of the so-called 'studies' have looked at zinc and hydroxychloroquine in tandem? This is after doctors administering this combo have seen patients going from seriously ill to symptom free in 8 hours. Sorry but the Doctors who design these studies aren't stupid. For this to be totally missed and for the public to be told to 'move on nothing to see here' is morally reprehensible.
    It appears that opposition to the hydroxychloroquine and zinc treatment study is a combination of it being an existing medication that is out of patent so not profitable for anyone, and that Donald Trump has spoken in favour of it.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,093

    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    I'm not sure how masks would be prevented any 'economic abyss', unless you think the rejuvenated mask industry was enough to pick up the slack.
    Maybe a bit like AIDS; a very nasty virus if unstopped, but paradoxically easy to stop if you do the right things.
    Heck, handwashing to "Happy Birthday" had a meaningful impact, though not enough to stop the epidemic.
    Get in early enough, and soft interventions might be enough. Which might make for awkward questions in the enquiry to come.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    43% of Americans apparently, which would still be more voting for Trump than Bush Snr got in 1992 or Dole in 1996

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1268939404896239618?s=20
    Just as a matter of interest, was there anything unusual about the 1992 or 1996 elections?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    I'm not sure how masks would be prevented any 'economic abyss', unless you think the rejuvenated mask industry was enough to pick up the slack.
    I hate to swear so long before the lagershed, but JESUS H TWATTING CHRIST

    if we’d had (nshallah) Czech style death rates (they wore masks, minimal deaths) or (Deus vult!) Korea style death rates (mandatory masks, basically no dead) we would now be able to confidently open our economy, with some careful restrictions.

    As it happens, we have a moron political class advised by a cretinous scientific elite, and they told us not to wear masks for three months before completely changing their advice, so we are one of the most fucked countries in the world, still not taking minimal mask precautions, and our economy will now suffer thereby
    On this specific point you have all available evidence on your side.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    eadric said:

    As it happens, we have a moron political class advised by a cretinous scientific elite, and they told us not to wear masks for three months before completely changing their advice, so we are one of the most fucked countries in the world, still not taking minimal mask precautions, and our economy will now suffer thereby

    :+1:
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    stodge said:

    dixiedean said:


    I must say I was confused as to why the markets were expecting a rise in unemployment. Quite obviously a large amount of restrictions have been lifted and a frankly huge amount laid off. Therefore a significant number to be rehired.
    Am not aware of anywhere in the US tightening policy recently.

    That's a very fair point but the forecasts were for a loss of 8 million or so so a gain of 2.5 million did seem counter intuitive in extremis.

    I wonder if political pressure from Trump and the anti-lockdown brigade has meant that instead of a cautious and nuanced lifting of restrictions as we are doing the US has simply re-opened everything at once which has left businesses able to re-employ staff but what we don't yet know is whether they will be able to keep them on - will the consumers come back in the numbers required?
    Here in Georgia we are open, except for social distancing. It's on a state by state basis.Southern parts of New York are still closed
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    43% of Americans apparently, which would still be more voting for Trump than Bush Snr got in 1992 or Dole in 1996

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1268939404896239618?s=20
    Just as a matter of interest, was there anything unusual about the 1992 or 1996 elections?
    Well there was Ross Perot, some of whose supporters are now probably voting for Trump
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    Amateur. I bought 10 FFP3 masks on 25 January, and have the Amazon receipts to prove it :wink:

    The REAL question is - where are the stylish, high quality masks that will both effectively protect the wearer and overcome the British horror of looking like a pillock in public? That's the real gap in the market, and I remain astounded that no one has rushed to fill it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    edited June 2020

    FPT

    Nigelb said:

    It wasn't just on the back of one report. It was a concerted effort to stop the drug becoming a gold standard treatment, because of Trump. Also because it's a cheap, widely available drug, with little profit for the wider drugs industry. But mostly because of Trump.

    That's a pretty strange characterisation.
    Yes, this was a crap and quite possibly fraudulent paper - but that is it.

    The reason most scientists were so riled with Trump is that he contributed to the ridiculous hype of a treatment, which led to a very large number of non randomised, unblinded and poorly designed trials. Which contributed nothing to medical knowledge, and actively hindered trials of other therapies.

    And irrespective of the dodgy paper, it seems exceedingly unlikely that this is going to be a particularly useful therapy, let alone a "gold standard".

    No clinical benefit from use of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalised patients with COVID-19
    https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19
    Professor Peter Horby and Professor Martin Landray, chief investigators of the RECOVERY Trial, said ‘In March this year, RECOVERY was established as a randomised clinical trial to test a range of potential drugs for COVID-19, including hydroxycholoroquine.

    ‘The trial has proceeded at unprecedented speed, enrolling over 11,000 patients from 175 NHS hospitals in the UK. Throughout this time, the independent Data Monitoring Committee has reviewed the emerging data about every two weeks to determine if there is evidence that would be strong enough to affect national and global treatment of COVID-19.

    ‘On Thursday 4 June, in response to a request from the UK Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), the independent Data Monitoring Committee conducted a further review of the data. Last night, the Committee recommended the chief investigators review the unblinded data on the hydroxychloroquine arm of the trial.

    ‘We have concluded that there is no beneficial effect of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised with COVID-19. We have therefore decided to stop enrolling participants to the hydroxychloroquine arm of the RECOVERY Trial with immediate effect. We are now releasing the preliminary results as they have important implications for patient care and public health....
    No it isn't a strange characterisation. Zinc and hydroxychloroquine is a combination treatment, with the zinc as the active partner - the whole point of the hydroxychloroquine is that it helps zinc to enter the cell and deal with the virus. Giving someone hydroxychloroquine alone is like giving someone a syringe without any antibiotics in it - of course it doesn't work. How many of the so-called 'studies' have looked at zinc and hydroxychloroquine in tandem? This is after doctors administering this combo have seen patients going from seriously ill to symptom free in 8 hours. Sorry but the Doctors who design these studies aren't stupid. For this to be totally missed and for the public to be told to 'move on nothing to see here' is morally reprehensible.

    No.

    The treatment is not zinc and hydroxychloroquine, it's azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine.

    Furthermore, hydroxychloroquine - which has retroviral properties - is the main actor, while azithromycin is a common antibiotic.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    RobD said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just a few musings this fine Friday evening - well, it is here in downtown East Ham.

    The US jobs numbers seem to have taken everyone by surprise. Will the same happen here? Why has this happened in the US and what is going on?

    I presume the individual states have taken the decision, virus notwithstanding, to re-open their economies and as the period of shutdown has been relatively short (if at all in some states), it's been possible for temporarily laid off staff to be re-hired.

    I presume the notion of temporary laid off is equivalent to our furlough and buried under the avalanche of positivity is the fact that permanent job losses actually rose by nearly 300,000.

    The US unemployment rate is still 13.3% which should be a reason not to break open the champagne as Wall Street seems to have done.

    As a comparison, US Services PMI went from 26.7 in April to 37.5 in May while UK Services PMI went from 13.4 in April to 29.0 in May.

    I think it is unlikely the same will happen here. Instead, it'll be a slow increase in the unemployment rate. In the US it was all front-loaded, but the furlough scheme is designed to keep people on the books, flattering the figures.
    Indeed. The USA had a massive spike in unemployment numbers, which is now already coming back as things reopen, whereas the UK has had a furlough scheme which has meant very little unemployment so far, but with it all to come as the scheme unwinds.

    While the UK scheme is superior in terms of the targeted support given, from a pure politics and "news cycle" angle the opposite is the case - the US bad stats are last month's news, now we have nothing but positive employment numbers leading up to their election, whereas in the UK all the bad headlines about redundancies are very much still to come as the extraordinary support is unwound.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,775

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
    The chances of at least one, and possibly two, Supreme Court vacancies during the next Presidential term must be pretty high. I tend to think there are a fair number of people who are just looking for an excuse to justify voting for Trump, even though they feel ashamed about it (and so won't tell pollsters at the moment that they're intending to, because they haven't justified it to themselves yet).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048

    FPT

    Nigelb said:

    It wasn't just on the back of one report. It was a concerted effort to stop the drug becoming a gold standard treatment, because of Trump. Also because it's a cheap, widely available drug, with little profit for the wider drugs industry. But mostly because of Trump.

    That's a pretty strange characterisation.
    Yes, this was a crap and quite possibly fraudulent paper - but that is it.

    The reason most scientists were so riled with Trump is that he contributed to the ridiculous hype of a treatment, which led to a very large number of non randomised, unblinded and poorly designed trials. Which contributed nothing to medical knowledge, and actively hindered trials of other therapies.

    And irrespective of the dodgy paper, it seems exceedingly unlikely that this is going to be a particularly useful therapy, let alone a "gold standard".

    No clinical benefit from use of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalised patients with COVID-19
    https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19
    Professor Peter Horby and Professor Martin Landray, chief investigators of the RECOVERY Trial, said ‘In March this year, RECOVERY was established as a randomised clinical trial to test a range of potential drugs for COVID-19, including hydroxycholoroquine.

    ‘The trial has proceeded at unprecedented speed, enrolling over 11,000 patients from 175 NHS hospitals in the UK. Throughout this time, the independent Data Monitoring Committee has reviewed the emerging data about every two weeks to determine if there is evidence that would be strong enough to affect national and global treatment of COVID-19.

    ‘On Thursday 4 June, in response to a request from the UK Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), the independent Data Monitoring Committee conducted a further review of the data. Last night, the Committee recommended the chief investigators review the unblinded data on the hydroxychloroquine arm of the trial.

    ‘We have concluded that there is no beneficial effect of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised with COVID-19. We have therefore decided to stop enrolling participants to the hydroxychloroquine arm of the RECOVERY Trial with immediate effect. We are now releasing the preliminary results as they have important implications for patient care and public health....
    No it isn't a strange characterisation. Zinc and hydroxychloroquine is a combination treatment, with the zinc as the active partner - the whole point of the hydroxychloroquine is that it helps zinc to enter the cell and deal with the virus. Giving someone hydroxychloroquine alone is like giving someone a syringe without any antibiotics in it - of course it doesn't work. How many of the so-called 'studies' have looked at zinc and hydroxychloroquine in tandem? This is after doctors administering this combo have seen patients going from seriously ill to symptom free in 8 hours. Sorry but the Doctors who design these studies aren't stupid. For this to be totally missed and for the public to be told to 'move on nothing to see here' is morally reprehensible.

    Here's a study (not peer reviewed so far) where they miraculously did manage to sneak zinc into the mix: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1#disqus_thread

    The abstract and the comment thread below it are well worth reading.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,287
    edited June 2020
    O/T

    Top of the Pops 1989 on BBC4 kicks off with the excellent If Only I Could by Sydney Youngblood.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    eadric said:

    And so, finally, WHO say we should all wear masks or face coverings. The last to yield, have yielded

    What a total fucking shitshow, and yes I am looking at you, Boris “handshake” Johnson

    I bought my first masks in mid Feb and was much mocked on here for doing so, and for wearing them.

    If we had all behaved like me, then, we wouldn’t be staring at the economic abyss and medical disaster, now.

    Amateur. I bought 10 FFP3 masks on 25 January, and have the Amazon receipts to prove it :wink:

    The REAL question is - where are the stylish, high quality masks that will both effectively protect the wearer and overcome the British horror of looking like a pillock in public? That's the real gap in the market, and I remain astounded that no one has rushed to fill it.
    This might suit you :D:D

    image
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    "These are great numbers. I'm sure George is looking down right now and celebrating them too. This is a great great day for our country."

    Utterly sickening.

    Can any person with a shred of decency listen to this and fail to recognize the need for a Dem landslide in November?

    I think not. Which means it's coming.

    I’m reminded, again, of Adlai Stevenson’s riposte when he was told that all thinking people were voting for him.
    Yeah I know. And it's a good one.

    But I sense America is not totally gone.

    They will do the necessary in November.
    An American friend of mine who is a of Republican persuasion says the only way Trump wins this year is if one the Supremes drops dead between now and election day.

    Their theory was Trump was on course to lose in 2016 but enough GOPers held their nose to vote for Trump to stop Hillary Clinton picking Scalia's replacement.
    Yes this "judge" thing is massive over there isn't it.

    The idea of getting that Kavanagh in place for the next 40 years clearly thrilled many.

    And what a bozo he appeared to be too. Wouldn't get a sniff over here.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    You know all those FT reports showing how badly the UK has done compared to elsewhere well um
    https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1268875215116869633
This discussion has been closed.