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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Starmer moves to a 35% net approval lead over Johnson while all three polls tonight have the voting gap getting very close

it has been a big night of polling with three new surveys all showing the Conservative lead over Labour getting narrower. The voting numbers are:

Read the full story here

TheScreamingEagles

First

Benpointer

First (excluding staff )

Ave_it

All of this is SO relevant to GE 2024....

Carnyx

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

HYUFD

Tories on average still have a slightly bigger poll lead than they got in 2017 though

rcs1000

eadric said:

Fpt

Yes, the mood is this insane

https://twitter.com/latimessports/status/1268951695876210690?s=21

Lucky bastard.

I wouldn't want to play for Galaxy.

Surrey

FPT

eadric said:

malcolmg said:

eadric said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Black_Rook said:

kinabalu said:

Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.

Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.

On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.

Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.

There will have been a referendum before that ever happens

Scotland may well go Indy at some point, but it won’t be in the next four years. The Tories have nothing to lose and everything to gain by refusing a referendum, even if Sturgeon wins every seat in Holyrood.

It cements the Tories as the party of the union in the north. It will also be quite popular with the majority of Scots who don’t want a referendum just yet. And the longer the Tories hold out the more likely Indy or the SNP will become less popular over time. All pendulums swing.

The Tories will point blank refuse a vote. Sorry.

Contradictory bits bolded. They are contradictory because Holyrood uses proportional representation. (Owing to turnout considerations they are not literally contradictory, but that doesn't matter. They would still be perceived as contradictory.) If majorities of both seats and votes are won by pro-indyref2 parties, the Tories will agree to an indyref2 for straightforward legitimacy reasons. The thing is, though, the condition clause in that statement won't be satisfied.

dodrade

eadric said:

Fpt

Yes, the mood is this insane

https://twitter.com/latimessports/status/1268951695876210690?s=21

Also bizarrely patriarchal to hold a man responsible for his wife's opinions.

Jonathan

You have to hand it to Tory supporters. By any objective measure this government is a shambles presiding over fiasco after fiasco, but for now they’re sticking with it.

Scott_xP

eadric said:

Boris doesn’t care. Look at how he handled Dominic Cummings.

Badly.

And I think he cares very much.

He wanted to be Churchill. Now he's Benny Hill.

Surrey

eadric said:

Surrey said:

FPT

eadric said:

malcolmg said:

eadric said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Black_Rook said:

kinabalu said:

Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.

Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.

On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.

Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.

There will have been a referendum before that ever happens

Scotland may well go Indy at some point, but it won’t be in the next four years. The Tories have nothing to lose and everything to gain by refusing a referendum, even if Sturgeon wins every seat in Holyrood.

It cements the Tories as the party of the union in the north. It will also be quite popular with the majority of Scots who don’t want a referendum just yet. And the longer the Tories hold out the more likely Indy or the SNP will become less popular over time. All pendulums swing.

The Tories will point blank refuse a vote. Sorry.

Contradictory bits bolded. They are contradictory because Holyrood uses proportional representation. If majorities of both seats and votes are won by pro-indyref2 parties, the Tories will agree to an indyref2 for straightforward legitimacy reasons. The thing is, though, the condition clause in that statement won't be satisfied.

No, they won’t grant one. Boris doesn’t care. Look at how he handled Dominic Cummings.

That would be Christmas for the SNP. He could easily destroy the Union out of nothing but his own stupidity if he were to take that attitude.

Stereotomy

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Ave_it

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Or maybe it will lead to protesters who shouldn't be there staying at home!

LostPassword

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

If the Union were to die it will be due to the English. With England broken up into constituent parts it would then become clear that Scotland had much in common with those parts of England - and the rest of the UK - that weren't the Home Counties. The ability of Scottish Nationalists to paint England as the nation of Shire Tories would be diminished.

However, England may not want to be broken up into a modern form of the Heptarchy. Though I'm in favour I get the sense that I'm an exception. Another layer of local government? Why not an English Parliament?

So, it's a tough sell.

tlg86

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Excellent, I hope the horse is okay this evening.

Rexel56

HYUFD said:

Tories on average still have a slightly bigger poll lead than they got in 2017 though

Peak @HYUFD

Stereotomy

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Or maybe it will lead to protesters who shouldn't be there staying at home!

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269341411461169152

Stereotomy

tlg86 said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Excellent, I hope the horse is okay this evening.

Excellent?

dodrade

eadric said:

dodrade said:

eadric said:

Fpt

Yes, the mood is this insane

https://twitter.com/latimessports/status/1268951695876210690?s=21

Also bizarrely patriarchal to hold a man responsible for his wife's opinions.

It’s quite mind boggling

I suspect he could have stayed if he'd been prepared to publicly denounce her.

Theuniondivvie

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Carnyx

eadric said:

Surrey said:

eadric said:

Surrey said:

FPT

eadric said:

malcolmg said:

eadric said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Black_Rook said:

kinabalu said:

Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.

Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.

On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.

Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.

There will have been a referendum before that ever happens

Scotland may well go Indy at some point, but it won’t be in the next four years. The Tories have nothing to lose and everything to gain by refusing a referendum, even if Sturgeon wins every seat in Holyrood.

It cements the Tories as the party of the union in the north. It will also be quite popular with the majority of Scots who don’t want a referendum just yet. And the longer the Tories hold out the more likely Indy or the SNP will become less popular over time. All pendulums swing.

The Tories will point blank refuse a vote. Sorry.

Contradictory bits bolded. They are contradictory because Holyrood uses proportional representation. If majorities of both seats and votes are won by pro-indyref2 parties, the Tories will agree to an indyref2 for straightforward legitimacy reasons. The thing is, though, the condition clause in that statement won't be satisfied.

No, they won’t grant one. Boris doesn’t care. Look at how he handled Dominic Cummings.

That would be Christmas for the SNP. He could easily destroy the Union out of nothing but his own stupidity if he were to take that attitude.

But, again, why would he care? It is clear 30-40% of Scots are fiercely pro union. He gets their votes if he takes a firm line. And he prevents a referendum which might break the union.

He can wait until the SNP finally fuck up (and they will, all parties do), or he can wait until he loses in 2024 and it is someone else’s problem. Your analysis is juvenile

I'd say 25% for sure, not sure about the rest, as per discussion earlier today/yesterday. Remember

(a) Mr Johnson is NOT well regarded uo here, even by the reactionary old farts whose politics were set in cast iron before Suez (as I know from my own family)

(b) Ms Davidson went on and on and on and on and on about no Indy Referendum, to the degree of deleting any Conservative Party identity from the election bunf. And yet she didn't get as far as you suggest.

And what happens when HM QE1 passes the throne to Charles III? Now that's a not very grey swan event.

Ave_it

Stereotomy said:

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Or maybe it will lead to protesters who shouldn't be there staying at home!

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269341411461169152

Entirely the fault of the protesters who should be held responsible. The police should be allowed to take the appropriate action to deal with these people.

Stereotomy

eadric said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

The fucking protestors caused the horse to bolt by aiming rocks, fireworks, bottles and bicycles at the mounted police. What did they honestly expect?

Maybe they expected the horse to bolt and hurt the cop riding it. Which it did

Black_Rook

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

I respectfully disagree - up to a point. There's no practical reason why there can't be an English Parliament. However, it still won't happen because it would entail what I call "breaking up the big train set." Any party leader with a realistic ambition to be UK Prime Minister (i.e. the Tory or Labour ones, as things currently stand and have done for the last ninety-odd years) wants to get to play with all the toys. They don't want to end up having to choose between being Prime Minister of the UK or First Minister of England.

Realistically, the situation resolves itself only with the collapse of the Union. If Scotland goes then stability can be quickly restored. There's no Great Britain for Northern Ireland's Unionists to attach themselves to, the remainder of the rump state which they find themselves in is geographically distant and missing their key neighbour and cultural partner, and so it's hard to see a united Ireland not coming about in fairly short order. That would leave England and Wales as a stable unit for the foreseeable future.

Because Wales still returns the bulk of its MPs from the same parties as in England, majorities in both nations voted to leave the EU, and the sovereignty movement there is weak, there is no reason why the two countries can't work constructively together, and also no reason why the role of Welsh MPs in the Commons need become contentious. Thus the requirement for federalism disappears.

dr_spyn

I can't recall reading any reports of a police horse bolting, and throwing its rider at a demonstration before. It must be as rare as two helicopters landing on the beach at Durdle Door.

isam

As pointed out on the last thread header, it don't mean a thing if Keir ain't got that swing... and he ain't

Stereotomy

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

I think it's because some moron brought it to a protest

Theuniondivvie

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Amazing incompetence to deploy a horse and/or rider for riot control that weren't able to cope with a riot.

FrancisUrquhart

BBC News - Coronavirus: Far-right Rome protest turns briefly violent
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52951920

williamglenn

Tomorrow belongs to me.

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1261647513259515904

isam

Left wing/Remain haters of Boris and Cummings had a gilt edged opportunity to claim the higher ground here, by criticising the BLM breaking of lockdown with the same vigour they did Big Bad Dom.

They just couldn't bring themselves to do it. It's all about scoring points & taking sides.

Alistair

Vegas baby, Vegas.

https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/1269169419998990336?s=19

Carnyx

Stereotomy said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

I think it's because some moron brought it to a protest

The nag or the hay?

Stereotomy

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Or maybe it will lead to protesters who shouldn't be there staying at home!

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269341411461169152

Entirely the fault of the protesters who should be held responsible. The police should be allowed to take the appropriate action to deal with these people.

So you think the cops should continue putting themselves in this dangerous position? I'm sure the people who want to hurt them would agree with you

Philip_Thompson

Looking at favourables alone there's just a one point difference. 44 to 45

Stereotomy

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Amazing incompetence to deploy a horse and/or rider for riot control not able to cope with a riot.

I used to ride quite a lot. Even the best trained horse will freak out if it is bombarded with rocks, bottles, fireworks and BICYCLES

But go ahead. Knock yourself out, just like the policeman on the horse

Hence insanely irresponsible to bring it to this situation

Ave_it

Stereotomy said:

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Or maybe it will lead to protesters who shouldn't be there staying at home!

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269341411461169152

Entirely the fault of the protesters who should be held responsible. The police should be allowed to take the appropriate action to deal with these people.

So you think the cops should continue putting themselves in this dangerous position? I'm sure the people who want to hurt them would agree with you

As I have said previously the protesters are 100% at fault here. The police should be given the authority to do whatever is necessary to deal with these people.

Carnyx

isam said:

Left wing/Remain haters of Boris and Cummings had a gilt edged opportunity to claim the higher ground here, by criticising the BLM breaking of lockdown with the same vigour they did Big Bad Dom.

They just couldn't bring themselves to do it. It's all about scoring points & taking sides.

Oh come now, some of us non-PB Tories expressed concern about the viral consequences. And I expect the others were gardening (ugh).

Beibheirli_C

Ave_it said:

As I have said previously the protesters are 100% at fault here. The police should be given the authority to do whatever is necessary to deal with these people.

Absolutely. A few knees on necks and it will be sorted out. D*mned protesters!!!!!!

And people wonder how US coppers got into this mess....

isam

I'll make a prediction

These BLM protests have done more harm than good to race relations in the UK

Black_Rook

LostPassword said:

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

If the Union were to die it will be due to the English. With England broken up into constituent parts it would then become clear that Scotland had much in common with those parts of England - and the rest of the UK - that weren't the Home Counties. The ability of Scottish Nationalists to paint England as the nation of Shire Tories would be diminished.

However, England may not want to be broken up into a modern form of the Heptarchy. Though I'm in favour I get the sense that I'm an exception. Another layer of local government? Why not an English Parliament?

So, it's a tough sell.

In order to have federalism AND break England up into cantons, you'd have to give each of the cantons as much power as the Scottish Parliament. So you'd end up with an entire collection of powerful provincial Governments all with substantially separate public services and legal systems, and umpteen separate sets of legislation all peeling off in separate directions. Different statute books in Yorkshire, East Anglia, the West Country and so on. First Ministers and Governments all over the place. Borders everywhere. It's bonkers.

English voters wouldn't even back the near-toothless North-East Assembly. They're not about to vote to end 1,100 years of national unity just to make Scottish voters about 3% less likely to vote for independence from Britain. Why anyone should be so desperate to save the UK that they were willing to go through all those painful contortions God alone knows.

ManchesterKurt

Protests are nationwide today, loads of people in Manc....

https://www.facebook.com/1414862805440360/videos/264412311438369

rottenborough

As I wrote last week, by this time next year, Johnson's government will be the most unpopular in modern times.

isam

This is such a bad idea it beggars belief it is being discussed, let alone encouraged

https://twitter.com/jameskanag/status/1269198201095172102?s=21

Ave_it

Beibheirli_C said:

Ave_it said:

As I have said previously the protesters are 100% at fault here. The police should be given the authority to do whatever is necessary to deal with these people.

Absolutely. A few knees on necks and it will be sorted out. D*mned protesters!!!!!!

And people wonder how US coppers got into this mess....

Or we can allow people to run around without respect for the law, spreading Covid everywhere? They will be the first to whinge when they or their family get Covid. But I am more concerned about the impact on the ordinary decent British who have no truck with these people but who will also be affected.

Carnyx

Black_Rook said:

LostPassword said:

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

If the Union were to die it will be due to the English. With England broken up into constituent parts it would then become clear that Scotland had much in common with those parts of England - and the rest of the UK - that weren't the Home Counties. The ability of Scottish Nationalists to paint England as the nation of Shire Tories would be diminished.

However, England may not want to be broken up into a modern form of the Heptarchy. Though I'm in favour I get the sense that I'm an exception. Another layer of local government? Why not an English Parliament?

So, it's a tough sell.

In order to have federalism AND break England up into cantons, you'd have to give each of the cantons as much power as the Scottish Parliament. So you'd end up with an entire collection of powerful provincial Governments all with substantially separate public services and legal systems, and umpteen separate sets of legislation all peeling off in separate directions. Different statute books in Yorkshire, East Anglia, the West Country and so on. First Ministers and Governments all over the place. Borders everywhere. It's bonkers.

English voters wouldn't even back the near-toothless North-East Assembly. They're not about to vote to end 1,100 years of national unity just to make Scottish voters about 3% less likely to vote for independence from Britain. Why anyone should be so desperate to save the UK that they were willing to go through all those painful contortions God alone knows.

Quite so. This was discussed and agreed in 2013-4 here, pretty much nem con.

Though I wouldn't call it 'bonkers' - it might be what the English need .Look at the way in which the responses to covid-19 are potentially being mishandled bny a London-centric mentality. But I agree, I can't see the English refoirming themselves just for the benefit of the Jocks.

Philip_Thompson

rottenborough said:

As I wrote last week, by this time next year, Johnson's government will be the most unpopular in modern times.

As witnessed by the government slumping from 44% of the vote in December ... To the depths of 44% positively approving in June.

At this rate by 2024 the Tories could reach ... 44%

Edit: Oops I've misread the graph. That's embarrassing.

Carnyx

Ave_it said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Ave_it said:

As I have said previously the protesters are 100% at fault here. The police should be given the authority to do whatever is necessary to deal with these people.

Absolutely. A few knees on necks and it will be sorted out. D*mned protesters!!!!!!

And people wonder how US coppers got into this mess....

Or we can allow people to run around without respect for the law, spreading Covid everywhere? They will be the first to whinge when they or their family get Covid. But I am more concerned about the impact on the ordinary decent British who have no truck with these people but who will also be affected.

Well, we shouldn't for a start have a Prime Minister who issues lockdown releases on the spur of the moment, like dead cats or rather squirrels to detract from embarrassing but temporary issues,

SandyRentool

isam said:

Left wing/Remain haters of Boris and Cummings had a gilt edged opportunity to claim the higher ground here, by criticising the BLM breaking of lockdown with the same vigour they did Big Bad Dom.

They just couldn't bring themselves to do it. It's all about scoring points & taking sides.

I'll repeat what I said the other night. Anyone attending a mass demo at the moment is being a dickhead.

On top of that, the usual scum who will always take the opportunity to hijack a peaceful protest and turn it into a ruck were their usual selves. Lock the feckers up.

I hope this isn't too woke.

rottenborough

williamglenn said:

Tomorrow belongs to me.

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1261647513259515904

Her other tweet:

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1269241400010379265

The irony of this is totally lost on her no doubt as she hugs those Hitler Youth kids close.

FrancisUrquhart

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Big_G_NorthWales

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

It quelled the riot and calmed matters down and had the full support of Mark Stone of Sky who was actually there

Black_Rook

isam said:

I'll make a prediction

These BLM protests have done more harm than good to race relations in the UK

You may be right. The risk is that, if any protesters have been harmed, it'll be blamed on the police and ascribed to institutional racism. Nothing has changed since Stephen Lawrence, they'll swiftly claim.

Regardless of whether or not there is any truth in the assertion, the more alienated sections of society will simply assume that's what happened, and the narrative that the authorities are out to get them will be reinforced.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I do worry that there will be further demonstrations like this and that the atmosphere at each one will be more febrile than at the one before. It's an ideal opportunity for rabble-rousers to stir up trouble, even if that's not what well-intentioned organisers want.

Casino_Royale

eadric said:

Fpt

Yes, the mood is this insane

https://twitter.com/latimessports/status/1268951695876210690?s=21

Things like this really worry me.

He's sacked because of something his wife said and his club are terrified the stench might infect them otherwise?

That's cowardly, unjust and dangerous.

Ave_it

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Can Dawn Butler just be locked up? Please???

humbugger

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Starmer's Labour speaks,

Big_G_NorthWales

Stereotomy said:

eadric said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

The fucking protestors caused the horse to bolt by aiming rocks, fireworks, bottles and bicycles at the mounted police. What did they honestly expect?

Maybe they expected the horse to bolt and hurt the cop riding it. Which it did

That comment is insane and horrible

humbugger

rottenborough said:

williamglenn said:

Tomorrow belongs to me.

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1261647513259515904

Her other tweet:

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1269241400010379265

The irony of this is totally lost on her no doubt as she hugs those Hitler Youth kids close.

Just to be clear, are you saying Trump supporters are Nazis?

Stark_Dawning

isam said:

I'll make a prediction

These BLM protests have done more harm than good to race relations in the UK

You've stated on here that you admire Enoch Powell and like heckling Muslim women. Why the change of heart?

rottenborough

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Last two months: Johnson locked down too late, he is responsible for thousands of dead, the Swedish are virtually mass murderers, no child should be anywhere near a school.

Tonight: Everyone - to the mass gatherings, throng the streets, this is a major issue.

2020 is turning into the most bonkers year in a very long time.

Theuniondivvie

humbugger said:

rottenborough said:

williamglenn said:

Tomorrow belongs to me.

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1261647513259515904

Her other tweet:

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1269241400010379265

The irony of this is totally lost on her no doubt as she hugs those Hitler Youth kids close.

Just to be clear, are you saying Trump supporters are Nazis?

Only 'the very fine people' ones.

Big_G_NorthWales

Stereotomy said:

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

Ave_it said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

Or maybe it will lead to protesters who shouldn't be there staying at home!

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269341411461169152

Entirely the fault of the protesters who should be held responsible. The police should be allowed to take the appropriate action to deal with these people.

So you think the cops should continue putting themselves in this dangerous position? I'm sure the people who want to hurt them would agree with you

What on earth do you think the police are for.

Just let the rioters go wild as Sky reported with threat to life

FrancisUrquhart

rottenborough said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Last two months: Johnson locked down too late, he is responsible for thousands of dead, the Swedish are virtually mass murderers, no child should be anywhere near a school.

Tonight: Everyone - to the mass gatherings, throng the streets, this is a major issue.

2020 is turning into the most bonkers year in a very long time.

You missed the, the government doesn't do enough to protect BAME individuals from coronavirus....

Twitter is full of people going no no no it wasn't selfish, this is a much bigger issue than covid and can't wait.

OnlyLivingBoy

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Who brings a horse to a protest?

Big_G_NorthWales

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Boris will not need to, the public will do it for him

humbugger

rottenborough said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Last two months: Johnson locked down too late, he is responsible for thousands of dead, the Swedish are virtually mass murderers, no child should be anywhere near a school.

Tonight: Everyone - to the mass gatherings, throng the streets, this is a major issue.

2020 is turning into the most bonkers year in a very long time.

The Swedes can't be mass murderers, they are in the EU. Be sensible now.

DecrepiterJohnL

rottenborough said:

williamglenn said:

Tomorrow belongs to me.

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1261647513259515904

Her other tweet:

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1269241400010379265

The irony of this is totally lost on her no doubt as she hugs those Hitler Youth kids close.

To be fair, she also tweeted this amusing anti-Biden video:
https://www.thetruthoverfacts.com/

Carnyx

eadric said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Protests are nationwide today, loads of people in Manc....

https://www.facebook.com/1414862805440360/videos/264412311438369

This mass anguish and knee bending and ritualised white self loathing is quite fascinating.


It is religious in tone. It is the pilgrimage of grace. It is Aztec nobles piercing their penises with cactus thorns to male the sun rise. It is Shiites whipping themselves to bloody frenzy during the mourning of Muharram


Above all, it is the flagellants who famously paraded themselves around Europe.... during the Black Death

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/flagellants.htm

Nothing wrong with a spot of flage, old boy.

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1269372574200467456

SandyRentool

Dawn Butler. Pillock.

FrancisUrquhart

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Boris will not need to, the public will do it for him

Strange how the BBC doesn't contain any photos of the violence and only the briefest of mentions.

justin124

humbugger said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Starmer's Labour speaks,

I believe Starmer sacked her.

SandyRentool

OnlyLivingBoy said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Who brings a horse to a protest?

Remember when people rocked up on camels in Cairo?

Big_G_NorthWales

rottenborough said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Last two months: Johnson locked down too late, he is responsible for thousands of dead, the Swedish are virtually mass murderers, no child should be anywhere near a school.

Tonight: Everyone - to the mass gatherings, throng the streets, this is a major issue.

2020 is turning into the most bonkers year in a very long time.

Re your first paragraph will you add in Sturgeon, Drakesford and Foster

Sturgeon admitted it last week but commented that hindsight is a great thing

And if you cannot see the dangers in tonights fracas i really am surprised

Theuniondivvie

Carnyx said:

eadric said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Protests are nationwide today, loads of people in Manc....

https://www.facebook.com/1414862805440360/videos/264412311438369

This mass anguish and knee bending and ritualised white self loathing is quite fascinating.


It is religious in tone. It is the pilgrimage of grace. It is Aztec nobles piercing their penises with cactus thorns to male the sun rise. It is Shiites whipping themselves to bloody frenzy during the mourning of Muharram


Above all, it is the flagellants who famously paraded themselves around Europe.... during the Black Death

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/flagellants.htm

Nothing wrong with a spot of flage, old boy.

And even a bit of penis piercing on occasion.

isam

Black_Rook said:

isam said:

I'll make a prediction

These BLM protests have done more harm than good to race relations in the UK

You may be right. The risk is that, if any protesters have been harmed, it'll be blamed on the police and ascribed to institutional racism. Nothing has changed since Stephen Lawrence, they'll swiftly claim.

Regardless of whether or not there is any truth in the assertion, the more alienated sections of society will simply assume that's what happened, and the narrative that the authorities are out to get them will be reinforced.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I do worry that there will be further demonstrations like this and that the atmosphere at each one will be more febrile than at the one before. It's an ideal opportunity for rabble-rousers to stir up trouble, even if that's not what well-intentioned organisers want.

The footage of the last few days is a recruiting sergeant for the far right

OnlyLivingBoy

eadric said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Protests are nationwide today, loads of people in Manc....

https://www.facebook.com/1414862805440360/videos/264412311438369

This mass anguish and knee bending and ritualised white self loathing is quite fascinating.


It is religious in tone. It is the pilgrimage of grace. It is Aztec nobles piercing their penises with cactus thorns to male the sun rise. It is Shiites whipping themselves to bloody frenzy during the mourning of Muharram


Above all, it is the flagellants who famously paraded themselves around Europe.... during the Black Death

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/flagellants.htm

Or maybe it's just people protesting against a bad thing?

Big_G_NorthWales

OnlyLivingBoy said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Who brings a horse to a protest?

Did you watch it live and how it developed

Black_Rook

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

LostPassword said:

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

If the Union were to die it will be due to the English. With England broken up into constituent parts it would then become clear that Scotland had much in common with those parts of England - and the rest of the UK - that weren't the Home Counties. The ability of Scottish Nationalists to paint England as the nation of Shire Tories would be diminished.

However, England may not want to be broken up into a modern form of the Heptarchy. Though I'm in favour I get the sense that I'm an exception. Another layer of local government? Why not an English Parliament?

So, it's a tough sell.

In order to have federalism AND break England up into cantons, you'd have to give each of the cantons as much power as the Scottish Parliament. So you'd end up with an entire collection of powerful provincial Governments all with substantially separate public services and legal systems, and umpteen separate sets of legislation all peeling off in separate directions. Different statute books in Yorkshire, East Anglia, the West Country and so on. First Ministers and Governments all over the place. Borders everywhere. It's bonkers.

English voters wouldn't even back the near-toothless North-East Assembly. They're not about to vote to end 1,100 years of national unity just to make Scottish voters about 3% less likely to vote for independence from Britain. Why anyone should be so desperate to save the UK that they were willing to go through all those painful contortions God alone knows.

Quite so. This was discussed and agreed in 2013-4 here, pretty much nem con.

Though I wouldn't call it 'bonkers' - it might be what the English need .Look at the way in which the responses to covid-19 are potentially being mishandled bny a London-centric mentality. But I agree, I can't see the English refoirming themselves just for the benefit of the Jocks.

I'm all for strong and effective local Government, but not for breaking England up into statelets. Purely looking at the geography, England is less than a quarter of the size of Metropolitan France. Splitting that territory between nine or ten mostly artificial provinces, all with parliaments, governments, civil services and separate laws, really would be bonkers.

Devolved Governments and a federal system within England are not necessary for effective administration and there is no evidence of which I am aware that they are wanted by most of the people.

Carnyx

Theuniondivvie said:

Carnyx said:

eadric said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Protests are nationwide today, loads of people in Manc....

https://www.facebook.com/1414862805440360/videos/264412311438369

This mass anguish and knee bending and ritualised white self loathing is quite fascinating.


It is religious in tone. It is the pilgrimage of grace. It is Aztec nobles piercing their penises with cactus thorns to male the sun rise. It is Shiites whipping themselves to bloody frenzy during the mourning of Muharram


Above all, it is the flagellants who famously paraded themselves around Europe.... during the Black Death

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/flagellants.htm

Nothing wrong with a spot of flage, old boy.

And even a bit of penis piercing on occasion.

I think that is going a bit too far personally - ouch! It reminds me of the exhibits in the RCSE in Nicolson Street ...

Scott_xP

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Or maybe it's just people protesting against a bad thing?

https://twitter.com/Sathnam/status/1269245031921201155

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1269372605250838531

humbugger

justin124 said:

humbugger said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1269267304342306819?s=19

Starmer's Labour speaks,

I believe Starmer sacked her.

She's a Labour MP. If he disagrees with her he should say so.

Carnyx

Black_Rook said:

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

LostPassword said:

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

If the Union were to die it will be due to the English. With England broken up into constituent parts it would then become clear that Scotland had much in common with those parts of England - and the rest of the UK - that weren't the Home Counties. The ability of Scottish Nationalists to paint England as the nation of Shire Tories would be diminished.

However, England may not want to be broken up into a modern form of the Heptarchy. Though I'm in favour I get the sense that I'm an exception. Another layer of local government? Why not an English Parliament?

So, it's a tough sell.

In order to have federalism AND break England up into cantons, you'd have to give each of the cantons as much power as the Scottish Parliament. So you'd end up with an entire collection of powerful provincial Governments all with substantially separate public services and legal systems, and umpteen separate sets of legislation all peeling off in separate directions. Different statute books in Yorkshire, East Anglia, the West Country and so on. First Ministers and Governments all over the place. Borders everywhere. It's bonkers.

English voters wouldn't even back the near-toothless North-East Assembly. They're not about to vote to end 1,100 years of national unity just to make Scottish voters about 3% less likely to vote for independence from Britain. Why anyone should be so desperate to save the UK that they were willing to go through all those painful contortions God alone knows.

Quite so. This was discussed and agreed in 2013-4 here, pretty much nem con.

Though I wouldn't call it 'bonkers' - it might be what the English need .Look at the way in which the responses to covid-19 are potentially being mishandled bny a London-centric mentality. But I agree, I can't see the English refoirming themselves just for the benefit of the Jocks.

I'm all for strong and effective local Government, but not for breaking England up into statelets. Purely looking at the geography, England is less than a quarter of the size of Metropolitan France. Splitting that territory between nine or ten mostly artificial provinces, all with parliaments, governments, civil services and separate laws, really would be bonkers.

Devolved Governments and a federal system within England are not necessary for effective administration and there is no evidence of which I am aware that they are wanted by most of the people.

Interesting to have your take on it. This is fair enough, but makes true federalism in the UK impossible.

rottenborough

humbugger said:

rottenborough said:

williamglenn said:

Tomorrow belongs to me.

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1261647513259515904

Her other tweet:

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1269241400010379265

The irony of this is totally lost on her no doubt as she hugs those Hitler Youth kids close.

Just to be clear, are you saying Trump supporters are Nazis?

Some of them are. He is pretty popular amongst the white supremacy crowd.

OnlyLivingBoy

Big_G_NorthWales said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Who brings a horse to a protest?

Did you watch it live and how it developed

No. Riot porn isn't my thing. I tend to instinctively side with the people without the horses in these situations, I think they stir up folk memories of my Saxon peasant ancestors being hacked to pieces by their Norman overlords.

TimT

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Usually police horses are draft crosses for quiet temperament and then are trained and selected to be bomb proof. But they are not machines. Could be nothing special spooked the horse, or could be someone or something hurt it.

Alistair

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Amazing incompetence to deploy a horse and/or rider for riot control not able to cope with a riot.

I used to ride quite a lot. Even the best trained horse will freak out if it is bombarded with rocks, bottles, fireworks and BICYCLES

But go ahead. Knock yourself out, just like the policeman on the horse

Pretty certain you haven't ridden a police trained horse all that frequently.

FrancisUrquhart

TimT said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Usually police horses are draft crosses for quiet temperament and then are trained and selected to be bomb proof. But they are not machines. Could be nothing special spooked the horse, or could be someone or something hurt it.

Somebody hit it with a bike, while also fireworks where being set off. There is footage.

Cyclefree

isam said:

Left wing/Remain haters of Boris and Cummings had a gilt edged opportunity to claim the higher ground here, by criticising the BLM breaking of lockdown with the same vigour they did Big Bad Dom.

They just couldn't bring themselves to do it. It's all about scoring points & taking sides.

I’m not sure why you feel the need to conflate left-wing and remain in this way.

But anyway I think these demos are bloody stupid. The violence is unnecessary. The hysteria ridiculous.

The anger and upset at the awful death of one man in US is no doubt sincerely felt by some but there is a lot of “look at me” protesting going on which adds nothing and, arguably, detracts from the very real problems encountered by black people in the US and elsewhere.

And, yes, given this blasted virus is not yet beaten, it is absurd to breach the lockdown in such a way.

Scott_xP

TimT said:

Usually police horses are draft crosses for quiet temperament and then are trained and selected to be bomb proof. But they are not machines. Could be nothing special spooked the horse, or could be someone or something hurt it.

After the incident the horse made its own way back to the stables

humbugger

rottenborough said:

humbugger said:

rottenborough said:

williamglenn said:

Tomorrow belongs to me.

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1261647513259515904

Her other tweet:

https://twitter.com/tonianne55/status/1269241400010379265

The irony of this is totally lost on her no doubt as she hugs those Hitler Youth kids close.

Just to be clear, are you saying Trump supporters are Nazis?

Some of them are. He is pretty popular amongst the white supremacy crowd.

You described the children as Hitler Youth. A disgusting comment, if you don't mind me saying so.

rottenborough

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1269372605250838531

What a f*cking surprise. Cummings has noticed that he has inadvertently allowed someone with ability into the Cabinet and is now on the move.

malcolmg

FPT @eadric
eadric said:

» show previous quotes
On this, malcy, we agree. Very depressing. Tho note it is not just the UK, it is arguably even worse in the USA

Very true, extremely depressing.

FrancisUrquhart

Scott_xP said:

TimT said:

Usually police horses are draft crosses for quiet temperament and then are trained and selected to be bomb proof. But they are not machines. Could be nothing special spooked the horse, or could be someone or something hurt it.

After the incident the horse made its own way back to the stables

While the police woman is in hospital.

Black_Rook

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

LostPassword said:

Carnyx said:

Black_Rook said:

eadric said:

It’s worth reading the official Labour Party policy on Scotland and Indy

They are against indyref2 and Indy in general

But they are FOR devomax and a Federal UK.

https://secure.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/RL - Constitutional Statement June2020.pdf

This is much much better from Labour. Much cleverer. Also clear and coherent. Heck, I could support it myself.

Boris Johnson has a problem with Starmer, but Starmer might also cause problems for Sturgeon and the SNP.

It's waffle. Without an English Parliament federalism is impossible, and there is zero excuse for the continued existence of Barnett.

It's not going to win over any significant chunk of pro-independence sentiment in Scotland, and somehow I don't see that many committed Unionist voters will be interested in voting to appease the SNP with yet more powers, either. It leaves SLAB continuing to fish in a small pond.

Exactly right, though you'd need to break up England in the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy style to get true federalism. Which makes it even less likely. We had this in 2013-2014 and it wasn't any more convincing then.

If the Union were to die it will be due to the English. With England broken up into constituent parts it would then become clear that Scotland had much in common with those parts of England - and the rest of the UK - that weren't the Home Counties. The ability of Scottish Nationalists to paint England as the nation of Shire Tories would be diminished.

However, England may not want to be broken up into a modern form of the Heptarchy. Though I'm in favour I get the sense that I'm an exception. Another layer of local government? Why not an English Parliament?

So, it's a tough sell.

In order to have federalism AND break England up into cantons, you'd have to give each of the cantons as much power as the Scottish Parliament. So you'd end up with an entire collection of powerful provincial Governments all with substantially separate public services and legal systems, and umpteen separate sets of legislation all peeling off in separate directions. Different statute books in Yorkshire, East Anglia, the West Country and so on. First Ministers and Governments all over the place. Borders everywhere. It's bonkers.

English voters wouldn't even back the near-toothless North-East Assembly. They're not about to vote to end 1,100 years of national unity just to make Scottish voters about 3% less likely to vote for independence from Britain. Why anyone should be so desperate to save the UK that they were willing to go through all those painful contortions God alone knows.

Quite so. This was discussed and agreed in 2013-4 here, pretty much nem con.

Though I wouldn't call it 'bonkers' - it might be what the English need .Look at the way in which the responses to covid-19 are potentially being mishandled bny a London-centric mentality. But I agree, I can't see the English refoirming themselves just for the benefit of the Jocks.

I'm all for strong and effective local Government, but not for breaking England up into statelets. Purely looking at the geography, England is less than a quarter of the size of Metropolitan France. Splitting that territory between nine or ten mostly artificial provinces, all with parliaments, governments, civil services and separate laws, really would be bonkers.

Devolved Governments and a federal system within England are not necessary for effective administration and there is no evidence of which I am aware that they are wanted by most of the people.

Interesting to have your take on it. This is fair enough, but makes true federalism in the UK impossible.

I don't think it's impossible in theory, because there is no reason why an English Parliament couldn't be created and the error of asymmetric devolution thus erased sensibly.

In practice it won't happen, not because it's unachievable but because the leaders of the two big governing parties will never agree to cleave the office of Prime Minister in two when they themselves occupy it or have the chance to do so.

An English Parliament means choosing between being Prime Minister of the UK or First Minister of England. They don't want that. They want to play with the whole train set, not split it in half.

Scott_xP

rottenborough said:

What a f*cking surprise. Cummings has noticed that he has inadvertently allowed someone with ability into the Cabinet and is now on the move.

And he's only there cos Dom kneecapped his predecessor...

Big_G_NorthWales

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

eadric said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Stereotomy said:

https://twitter.com/kci2013/status/1269339567339065350

Hope this leads to a change in policy on police use of horses. It's insanely irresponsible

This too, unless they think the traffic light was dangerously radicalised.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269346341081231363?s=20

Why do you think the horse bolted? Was it just horsey high spirits? Did he spot some lovely fresh hay on Northumberland Avenue?

Who brings a horse to a protest?

Did you watch it live and how it developed

No. Riot porn isn't my thing. I tend to instinctively side with the people without the horses in these situations, I think they stir up folk memories of my Saxon peasant ancestors being hacked to pieces by their Norman overlords.

Well that just shows how foolish it is to have an opinion based on something you have not watched and just use your political prejeudice

kle4

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1269372605250838531

What a f*cking surprise. Cummings has noticed that he has inadvertently allowed someone with ability into the Cabinet and is now on the move.

I wonder how Sunak will choose to display his obeisance to Boris.

Banterman

Does anyone care about this at the moment? There are more than 4 years to go.