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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Food, Glorious Food!

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Food, Glorious Food!

Covid-19 and a prolonged lockdown have bought us few good things. There are some, though:-

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    edited June 2020
    Afternoon all :)

    First - and that doesn't happen often.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    yet another bash the yanks thread
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    After running Tom Cotton's "Send in the Troops" op-ed online, if not in print, the New York Times has now published an op-ed by Michelle Goldberg entitled "Tom Cotton's Fascist Op-Ed". Strong language indeed.

    Meanwhile Donald Trump tweets "OLD GLORY is to be revered, cherished, and flown high...We should be standing up straight and tall, ideally with a salute, or a hand on heart. There are other things you can protest, but not our Great American Flag - NO KNEELING!" and, in two moments of special eloquence, "LAW AND ORDER!" and "I want LAW & ORDER!"
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    edited June 2020
    Excellent article. I have a professional interest in this through my job (head of Compassion in World Farming UK). To supplement Cyclefree's piece with some practical notes (hopefully non-partisan):

    Essentially there are three ways of maintaining or improving standards:

    1. We can accept anything, including low-standard stuff, but label it in a way that enables consumers to choose higher standards - this worked well for eggs, where the highest welfare free range eggs have almost driven caged effs off the market. But the US is very wary of labelling, which they consider to be discriminatory, and there are practical difficulties in putting everything on a label that consumers migh tlike to know.

    2. We can accept anything, but put a big tariff on it, thereby protecting British agriculture. This is generally the NFU position, but it means that even high-standard, high-welfare imnports are kept out too. It's not as though all British farming was better than all foreign farming - it isn't.

    3. We can have differential tariffs - high for cheap and nasty stuff, low for high-quality stuff. The Government seems to be thinking about this at the moment. Historically there have been problems getting this accepted by the WTO, but we could have a high general tariff and then a differential one agreed with the US in a free trade deal. The snag is that tariffs can be changed very easily, and once the principle of accepting any old imports is accepted, this or future governments can lower the tariffs; moreover, it does open up to hard-sell marketing by low-quality importers to establish themselves on UK supermarket shelves.

    4. We can make high quality a condition in any free trade agreement. This is what the cross-party EFRA Select Committee favours, and a proposal for this sparked the first big revolt of this Parliament, with 22 Conservative MPs supporting it. It's likely to be proposed again bvy the Lords.

    Exactly what is high quality is debatable, of course, but intensive farming with massive use of antibiotics and cleansing agents to reduce the risks is not what most people in Britain seem to want. If the Government wants to get a lasting trade deal that doesn't cause huge controversy, they would be well-advised to go for option 4.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    Not really the nation, more their sub- European standard food hygiene regulations.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    "Not that long ago Professor Tim Leunig, an advisor to the Chancellor, suggested that the food sector was 'not critically important' and that agriculture and fisheries 'certainly isn’t'."
    Wow! He's now chief scientific adviser at the Department for Education; according to the Daily Mail he "has influence in the departments of Education, Environment and Treasury"; and "he shares with Dominic Cummings a desire for radical thinking". It certainly sounds like it. Another thing he shares with Cummings is that David Cameron has called him potty:

    "Tim (Leunig's) most controversial policy idea – until today – was to pull all Government support from 'failed' Northern cities and encourage the inhabitants to migrate South. 'Barmy,' said a furious David Cameron, who was Tory leader when Dr Leunig floated it in a think-tank report in 2008. 'Rubbish from start to finish.' "
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Surrey said:

    After running Tom Cotton's "Send in the Troops" op-ed online, if not in print, the New York Times has now published an op-ed by Michelle Goldberg entitled "Tom Cotton's Fascist Op-Ed". Strong language indeed.

    Meanwhile Donald Trump tweets "OLD GLORY is to be revered, cherished, and flown high...We should be standing up straight and tall, ideally with a salute, or a hand on heart. There are other things you can protest, but not our Great American Flag - NO KNEELING!" and, in two moments of special eloquence, "LAW AND ORDER!" and "I want LAW & ORDER!"

    On the several occassions Uncle Sam requested Mr Trump to stand up straight and tall to salute "Old Glory" his "heel spurs" got in the way.

    Hypocrite!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    It comes after largely peaceful demonstrations in central London

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

    London anti-racism protests leave 27 officers hurt

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52954899
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    Not really the nation, more their sub- European standard food hygiene regulations.
    you appear to believe the US have no food standards.

    you also appear to believe the EU doesnt permit chemicals, intensive farming and animal cruelty.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    Time the police were doing their job and got the batons out and cleared these morons off the streets
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    edited June 2020

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    Not really the nation, more their sub- European standard food hygiene regulations.
    you appear to believe the US have no food standards.

    you also appear to believe the EU doesnt permit chemicals, intensive farming and animal cruelty.
    No and I have eaten very well in the USA.

    I won't be buying chlorine washed chicken, so i won't be eating chlorine diluted chicken s***! No one else should have to either.

    Our food standards are by no means perfect for some of the reasons you have highlighted, but they are on the whole lot more rigorous than those of the US Food and Drug Administration.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Incredibly brave by Powell, whose wife iirc did not want him to run for president fearing he would be shot and killed by white supremacy fanatics.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Crikey. I understand Mitt Romney might do likewise and also John McCain.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited June 2020
    No route for Trump now other than rigging the election. Wonder how he will go about trying to do that?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    Crikey. I understand Mitt Romney might do likewise and also John McCain.
    Your understanding is a bit crap.

    John McCain's dead.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    and the left do not have their own for the right?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited June 2020

    Crikey. I understand Mitt Romney might do likewise and also John McCain.
    Your understanding is a bit ....

    John McCain's dead.
    Oops so he is.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
    If people want to get rid of something, it should be done via democratic means. Having mobs ripping stuff down is not the way.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    edited June 2020

    Crikey. I understand Mitt Romney might do likewise and also John McCain.
    John McCain might struggle on that score, but I believe Meghan McCain might call it for Biden.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    I had planned to run a bash/laugh at the DUP piece today but I didn't have the energy, maybe next weekend.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Crikey. I understand Mitt Romney might do likewise and also John McCain.
    Your understanding is a bit crap.

    John McCain's dead.
    It's McCain's daughter who might announce she is voting Biden
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    Not really the nation, more their sub- European standard food hygiene regulations.
    you appear to believe the US have no food standards.

    you also appear to believe the EU doesnt permit chemicals, intensive farming and animal cruelty.
    No and I have eaten very well in the USA.

    I won't be buying chlorine washed chicken, so i won't be eating chlorine diluted chicken s***! No one else should have to either.

    Our food standards are by no means perfect for some of the reasons you have highlighted, but they are on the whole lot more rigorous than those of the US Food and Drug Administration.
    I just see the standards as different since the EU and US have evolved in different ways, whether EU standards are more rigourous than the most ltigious society on earth I would doubt. I despise US artifical cream and much prefer European dairy, but you wont catch me ordering foie gras.

    The whole argument on food is once again being driven by scare mongering rumour and half truths.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Crikey. I understand Mitt Romney might do likewise and also John McCain.
    Your understanding is a bit crap.

    John McCain's dead.
    It's McCain's daughter who might announce she is voting Biden
    I knew I'd seen the name in a piece earlier today. Didn't click.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    and the left do not have their own for the right?
    Yet another irregular verb -

    I state the truth
    You are caustic
    He/She is pejorative
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    Kohlin Powell endorsed Obama in 2008 and 2012, so today's news isn't quite such a big defection.

    But does fit the pattern the military top bods are disgusted with Trump.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited June 2020
    This is the piece in the New York Times about Republicans who won't be supporting Trump:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/politics/trump-biden-republicans-voters.html

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    kinabalu said:

    No route for Trump now other than rigging the election. Wonder how he will go about trying to do that?
    Remember Steve Bannon's words: It will end badly, very very badly.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Kohlin Powell endorsed Obama in 2008 and 2012, so today's news isn't quite such a big defection.

    But does fit the pattern the military top bods are disgusted with Trump.

    Nah, he's swallowd Biden's line that he cant be black unless he votes Biden.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    I had planned to run a bash/laugh at the DUP piece today but I didn't have the energy, maybe next weekend.
    I thought Arlene was a paragon of good governance these days.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
    If people want to get rid of something, it should be done via democratic means. Having mobs ripping stuff down is not the way.
    Bet you didn't say that about the Berlin Wall and statues of Ceaușescu

    #hypocrisy
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    They seem to be doing a fair job of self bashing.
    "We need to talk about Trump"?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
    If people want to get rid of something, it should be done via democratic means. Having mobs ripping stuff down is not the way.
    Bet you didn't say that about the Berlin Wall and statues of Ceaușescu

    #hypocrisy
    The Berlin Wall behind which people didn't have a democrat voice....Bristol has an elected mayor, if people are outraged by a statue, they can easily have it peacefully removed.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
    If people want to get rid of something, it should be done via democratic means. Having mobs ripping stuff down is not the way.
    Bet you didn't say that about the Berlin Wall and statues of Ceaușescu

    #hypocrisy
    The Berlin Wall was a wall not a statue . Ceausescu was to do with a revolution and against the current ruler . Are these supporters doing a revolution?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    Not really the nation, more their sub- European standard food hygiene regulations.
    you appear to believe the US have no food standards.

    you also appear to believe the EU doesnt permit chemicals, intensive farming and animal cruelty.
    No and I have eaten very well in the USA.

    I won't be buying chlorine washed chicken, so i won't be eating chlorine diluted chicken s***! No one else should have to either.

    Our food standards are by no means perfect for some of the reasons you have highlighted, but they are on the whole lot more rigorous than those of the US Food and Drug Administration.
    I just see the standards as different since the EU and US have evolved in different ways, whether EU standards are more rigourous than the most ltigious society on earth I would doubt. I despise US artifical cream and much prefer European dairy, but you wont catch me ordering foie gras.

    The whole argument on food is once again being driven by scare mongering rumour and half truths.
    You might be right. If one dies of botulism, their family will get a big payout from the producer and supplier. Although I am not sure that makes it OK.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Kohlin Powell endorsed Obama in 2008 and 2012, so today's news isn't quite such a big defection.

    But does fit the pattern the military top bods are disgusted with Trump.

    Nah, he's swallowd Biden's line that he cant be black unless he votes Biden.

    Where's the "dislike" button to register against this post?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    Not really the nation, more their sub- European standard food hygiene regulations.
    you appear to believe the US have no food standards.

    you also appear to believe the EU doesnt permit chemicals, intensive farming and animal cruelty.
    No and I have eaten very well in the USA.

    I won't be buying chlorine washed chicken, so i won't be eating chlorine diluted chicken s***! No one else should have to either.

    Our food standards are by no means perfect for some of the reasons you have highlighted, but they are on the whole lot more rigorous than those of the US Food and Drug Administration.
    I just see the standards as different since the EU and US have evolved in different ways, whether EU standards are more rigourous than the most ltigious society on earth I would doubt. I despise US artifical cream and much prefer European dairy, but you wont catch me ordering foie gras.

    The whole argument on food is once again being driven by scare mongering rumour and half truths.
    You might be right. If one dies of botulism, their family will get a big payout from the producer and supplier. Although I am not sure that makes it OK.
    Whereas in Europe you can also die of botulism but just wont get the payout. Doesnt make it ok either.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    In an alternate universe Colin Powell was the first black POTUS after getting the nomination in 2008 and the GOP have modernised and dumped the white supremacist faction.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    MaxPB said:

    In an alternate universe Colin Powell was the first black POTUS after getting the nomination in 2008 and the GOP have modernised and dumped the white supremacist faction.

    Or Condaleeza Rice does the double first black and first woman president
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    It does sort of imply that the protests are against somebody who lived over 200 years ago though - need to articulate something more relevant . I am not a massive statue fan of anyone but the left indulge as much as the right at statue building so if there is a free for all it encourages desecration of all monuments . Do people want Jewish graves/war graves etc vandalised because there is no law protecting monuments. The left doing this cannot use the excuse of a cause over law - just like they should adher to the covid -19 laws rather than say their cause is greater
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In my view, no it isn't.

    But how we laughed when the statues of Sadam and Gadaffi fell.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In my view, no it isn't.

    But how we laughed when the statues of Sadam and Gadaffi fell.
    they were revolutions against the current dictator though
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In my view, no it isn't.

    But how we laughed when the statues of Sadam and Gadaffi fell.
    The Saddam statue was pulled down by the US army after the mob failed to pull it down.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.

    Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Further news for my prediction that this will be the most unpopular government in modern polling by next summer:

    https://twitter.com/vivamjm/status/1269569793398620160

    The thread is terrifyingly clear on what is about to happen.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    I've just been listening to The Redskins. Kick Over the Statues.

    They were ahead of the game.

    I saw them live, btw.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
    If people want to get rid of something, it should be done via democratic means. Having mobs ripping stuff down is not the way.
    Bet you didn't say that about the Berlin Wall and statues of Ceaușescu

    #hypocrisy
    The Berlin Wall was a wall not a statue . Ceausescu was to do with a revolution and against the current ruler . Are these supporters doing a revolution?
    Against someone who died in 1721?

    Grade II listed. I hope the vandals are arrested and prosecuted.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
    The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415

    But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.

    Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
    If monument vandalism is given the green light because people think their casue is above the law then the left will not be the only ones empowered to do it and that will result in some pretty unpleasant deeds
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Every country does not have its own science. The idea that sage was "the science" and that the government was totally right to ignore the WHO and the scientists advising other countries is just absurd.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    I had planned to run a bash/laugh at the DUP piece today but I didn't have the energy, maybe next weekend.
    I thought Arlene was a paragon of good governance these days.
    The DUP turn out to be cucks, and Boris Johnson cucked.

    In these dark times the DUP admitting they should have voted for Theresa May's deal was a moment of real joy.

    The DUP now know what Peter Robinson felt liked when he found his wife had cheated on him.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    If they are going to destroy everything in Bristol with any links to the slave trade, the city will soon look like Coventry after the war.

    One of the big projects for Network Rail coming up on the Western Region is the refurb of the roof at Bristol Temple Meads. It’s still patched up from where it was redesigned by the Luftwaffe.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.

    What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In this case, yes.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes.
    I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020

    But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.

    Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
    If monument vandalism is given the green light because people think their casue is above the law then the left will not be the only ones empowered to do it and that will result in some pretty unpleasant deeds
    Wee Owen is a massive hypocrite. Vandalism of Karl Marx grave horrendous, vandalism of Colston statue, go for it.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1092724461558792192?s=20
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2020
    Lowest daily death figure since Mar 23rd today: 77. As usual at weekends, it's cos reported care home deaths are basically zero. Midweek they're typically 150-200ish (although that's very backdated, real figure probably a little under 100 now).

    Positives 1326 a good number, especially given the hefty expansion in testing the last week or so. In hospitals down to 292 (from 35k tests).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited June 2020

    Excellent article. I have a professional interest in this through my job (head of Compassion in World Farming UK). To supplement Cyclefree's piece with some practical notes (hopefully non-partisan):

    Essentially there are three ways of maintaining or improving standards:

    1. We can accept anything, including low-standard stuff, but label it in a way that enables consumers to choose higher standards - this worked well for eggs, where the highest welfare free range eggs have almost driven caged effs off the market. But the US is very wary of labelling, which they consider to be discriminatory, and there are practical difficulties in putting everything on a label that consumers migh tlike to know.

    2. We can accept anything, but put a big tariff on it, thereby protecting British agriculture. This is generally the NFU position, but it means that even high-standard, high-welfare imnports are kept out too. It's not as though all British farming was better than all foreign farming - it isn't.

    3. We can have differential tariffs - high for cheap and nasty stuff, low for high-quality stuff. The Government seems to be thinking about this at the moment. Historically there have been problems getting this accepted by the WTO, but we could have a high general tariff and then a differential one agreed with the US in a free trade deal. The snag is that tariffs can be changed very easily, and once the principle of accepting any old imports is accepted, this or future governments can lower the tariffs; moreover, it does open up to hard-sell marketing by low-quality importers to establish themselves on UK supermarket shelves.

    4. We can make high quality a condition in any free trade agreement. This is what the cross-party EFRA Select Committee favours, and a proposal for this sparked the first big revolt of this Parliament, with 22 Conservative MPs supporting it. It's likely to be proposed again bvy the Lords.

    Exactly what is high quality is debatable, of course, but intensive farming with massive use of antibiotics and cleansing agents to reduce the risks is not what most people in Britain seem to want. If the Government wants to get a lasting trade deal that doesn't cause huge controversy, they would be well-advised to go for option 4.

    I see 2 or 3 problems with this.

    The first is that tariffs are essentially a tax on the customer, and therefore undesirable.

    The second is that under option 4 you are going to have to ban all sorts of food from all sorts of European countries. For example, aiui if you want to stop pig castration you will have to ban Danish bacon. How does all that work, and how will it be 'nuanced' past the EU?

    Very difficult to navigate.

    I think there's a broader debate here, in that in many respects organic food - which has long used welfare and 'greenness' as tools for emotional marketing - is actually worse.

    We also need to deal with areas where Europe is very backward, such as opposition to GM farming,
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    ydoethur said:

    Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.

    What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
    Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    Don't forget 'latte sipping'. The alcohol free alternative to Champagne Socialist.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    Don't forget 'latte sipping'. The alcohol free alternative to Champagne Socialist.
    Champagne Socialists at least cannot have Schloers on their integrity.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited June 2020

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
    If people want to get rid of something, it should be done via democratic means. Having mobs ripping stuff down is not the way.
    Bet you didn't say that about the Berlin Wall and statues of Ceaușescu

    #hypocrisy
    I don't recall Rumania being a democracy. Or the GDR.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1269642455529541638?s=20

    Usual caveats - weekend (also Scotland recorded zero, but as Sturgeon pointed out, may not actually be the case)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In my view, no it isn't.

    But how we laughed when the statues of Sadam and Gadaffi fell.
    they were revolutions against the current dictator though
    I disagree with the destruction of any historical artifacts. Whether the statues should have still been on public display in a multi-cultural city is another question. Likewise I don't want the streetnames of Bristol changed by the council in a pique of political correctness. Changing Blackboy Hill to be Robert Mugabe Rise would be an error.

    My comment re: Saddam and Gadaffi was excessively flippant, although a vague similarity I feel does exist.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    That's not necessarily such a bad idea, actually. Ironically, given that Jones is promoting it, this happened in many former Communist countries when they had their revolutions.

    It's also what happened to all the statues of king emperors and viceroys in Delhi after India got rid of the Raj. They didn't blow them up, they put them all together in a park of historical curiosities.

    I wouldn't advocate doing this in a really thoroughgoing fashion - trying to erase the legacy of the slave owners from the landscape would indeed risk a full-scale war on history, given that some group or another in society could find good reason to be offended by most of the major figures of the past, if they were minded to do so - but it could be a useful means of disposing of the most contentious monuments?

    Alternatively, leave it where it is and raise an equally prominent statue of a slave, facing it from the other side of the road.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    MattW said:

    Now I seemed to remember a poster on here saying woke-ism was dead because of covid and we wouldn't be like the US. Now we have mobs pulling down statues they don't like.
    That one certainly deserved to be ripped down.

    There are quite a few statues of old white imperialists around our cities which should go the same way.
    If people want to get rid of something, it should be done via democratic means. Having mobs ripping stuff down is not the way.
    Bet you didn't say that about the Berlin Wall and statues of Ceaușescu

    #hypocrisy
    I don't recall Rumania being a democracy. Or the GDR.
    The DDR was a democracy, it said so in the name and everything.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited June 2020
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    One of the first lessons I was taught by my history teacher was not to judge people from history by modern standards.

    You cannot simply erase history.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    yet another bash the yanks thread

    I had planned to run a bash/laugh at the DUP piece today but I didn't have the energy, maybe next weekend.
    I thought Arlene was a paragon of good governance these days.
    The DUP turn out to be cucks, and Boris Johnson cucked.

    In these dark times the DUP admitting they should have voted for Theresa May's deal was a moment of real joy.

    The DUP now know what Peter Robinson felt liked when he found his wife had cheated on him.
    I regularly pass Peter Robinson's house, on my travels to Northern Ireland, complete with upright flagpole and Union Flag fluttering in the breeze. Mind you the lad had a bloody big wall to scale for his trysts with Iris.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415

    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    Don't forget 'latte sipping'. The alcohol free alternative to Champagne Socialist.
    If the left seriously think they don't invent their own derisory names for the right they are a bit un-woke!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
    They can easily start a petition, get it put to a vote. Mob rule isn't the way.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    DougSeal said:

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
    Turns out the community had been asked and it was decided to keep it there, see @ydoethur's comment above.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes.
    I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
    Oh but of course, let's establish a precedent that emotional incontinence is a sufficient justification for violence and vandalism.

    What could possibly go wrong?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    One of the first lessons I was taught by my history teacher was not to judge people from history by modern standards.

    You cannot simply erase history.

    And yet there existed slavery abolishionists, so clearly at the time people understood the immorality of slavery. Maintaining the fiction that a few hundred years humanity just had no inkling that shackling, beating, raping and killing other human beings might be immoral, that's erasing history. Relegating slave owners to museums instead of public celebratory monuments is not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
    Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?

    Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?

    The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088

    Further news for my prediction that this will be the most unpopular government in modern polling by next summer:

    https://twitter.com/vivamjm/status/1269569793398620160

    The thread is terrifyingly clear on what is about to happen.

    That he asserts that the additional costs of coping with all this are, alone, bigger than our former annual contribution to the EU is a *big* claim.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
    And now we have a lawyer arguing in favour of illegal action. You couldn't make this insanity up...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    ydoethur said:

    Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.

    What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
    He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."

    Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes.
    I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
    Oh but of course, let's establish a precedent that emotional incontinence is a sufficient justification for violence and vandalism.

    What could possibly go wrong?
    It might surprise you, but mobs of people tearing down statues don't tend to be particularly concerned about precedent.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
    Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?

    Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?

    The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
    The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    One of the first lessons I was taught by my history teacher was not to judge people from history by modern standards.

    You cannot simply erase history.

    Once again, I think my dad's lesson on race applies. Getting angry at something that happened hundreds of years ago seems like a waste of time.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    edited June 2020

    Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
    Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
    In my view, no it isn't.

    But how we laughed when the statues of Sadam and Gadaffi fell.
    they were revolutions against the current dictator though
    I disagree with the destruction of any historical artifacts. Whether the statues should have still been on public display in a multi-cultural city is another question. Likewise I don't want the streetnames of Bristol changed by the council in a pique of political correctness. Changing Blackboy Hill to be Robert Mugabe Rise would be an error.

    My comment re: Saddam and Gadaffi was excessively flippant, although a vague similarity I feel does exist.
    Bristol is not, of course, far from Cheddar, where Cheddar Man lived back in the day. According to Wikipedia analysis of his nuclear DNA indicates that he was a typical member of the western European population at the time, probably with dark or dark to black* skin.


    *Yes, I realise there's a dispute over this.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.

    It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
    The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
    “By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415

    One of the first lessons I was taught by my history teacher was not to judge people from history by modern standards.

    You cannot simply erase history.

    It certainly gets harder to do and also facts become grey as first hand knowledge is lost and even propoganda and myth can take over . Richard the Third arguably had a rough time from Shakespeare etc . That's not to say good and bad people existed (as they still do ) but is harder to be certain the more the passage of time.
This discussion has been closed.