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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What sort of future do we want?

SystemSystem Posts: 8,258
edited June 21 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What sort of future do we want?

The events of the last three weeks aren’t ones many of us are likely to forget. It started with footage of a senseless murder taking place in real-time: a man pleading for his life and crying for his mother as the life is gradually squeezed out of him by a police officer whilst the pleas of by-standers are ignored. The fact the Minneapolis police initially put out a statement that glossed over this, whilst the union president stood-up for the officers involved, meant it cut no ice when they were all fired the day after: it struck us as a system that was rotten from the top-down. That the use of disproportionate force by the US police was a feature, not a bug, and that any officer unlucky enough to find themselves accused or in the dock would be treated with leniency, whilst those they arrested would be treated with anything but.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,378
    Great piece Mr Royale, thank you.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 3,099
    edited June 21
    Thanks CR. Eddie Marsan put it really well with this I think:



    Eddie's point is important because in order to move forward we have to acknowledge and address our past. It's great that this is starting to happen.

    It was also wonderful to see The Duchess of Cambridge's message this week about the need for kindness. She's fab.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 26,626
    Great piece Mr Royale, thanks for writing and thanks OGH for publishing something somewhat counter to most of what's been written on the subject in recent weeks.

    Sad to wake up to news of violence in Reading overnight, condolences to those affected and let's hope this is simply one idiot rather than part of something bigger.

    A rather weird morning here in the Middle East, it's just done rather dark as a partial solar eclipse passes over - there's a metaphor somewhere about darkened skies that will soon brighten again.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,157
    It seems Sky or the police were peddling fake news last night regarding the attack in Reading. I apologise for repeating it one here.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 26,675
    Sandpit said:

    Great piece Mr Royale, thanks for writing and thanks OGH for publishing something somewhat counter to most of what's been written on the subject in recent weeks.

    Sad to wake up to news of violence in Reading overnight, condolences to those affected and let's hope this is simply one idiot rather than part of something bigger.

    A rather weird morning here in the Middle East, it's just done rather dark as a partial solar eclipse passes over - there's a metaphor somewhere about darkened skies that will soon brighten again.

    Wasn’t it an annular one rather than partial? Or were you on the edge of it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 26,626
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great piece Mr Royale, thanks for writing and thanks OGH for publishing something somewhat counter to most of what's been written on the subject in recent weeks.

    Sad to wake up to news of violence in Reading overnight, condolences to those affected and let's hope this is simply one idiot rather than part of something bigger.

    A rather weird morning here in the Middle East, it's just done rather dark as a partial solar eclipse passes over - there's a metaphor somewhere about darkened skies that will soon brighten again.

    Wasn’t it an annular one rather than partial? Or were you on the edge of it?
    We are on the edge, 86% covered. Yes it will be annular rather than total.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,599
    Good morning, everyone.

    Good article, Mr. Royale.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 26,675
    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 18,829
    Good morning fellow-Pb-ers. As others have said, great piece Mr Royale.

    I watched the James Baldwin film last night, and with regard to the US and of course the Caribbean, one point struck home. Baldwin said, to a white man, and I hope I'm remembering his words accurately 'None of my ancestors wanted to come here; yours did!"
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 18,829
    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 26,675

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 26,675
    edited June 21
    Breaking (Guardian): Ministers are expecting a wide-ranging government reshuffle in September in which Boris Johnson will sack key figures who are judged to have underperformed in the Covid-19 crisis.

    Cabinet sources said the move was now seen as inevitable. They believe sweeping changes will be made in an attempt to defuse mounting discontent on the Tory backbenches following a stream of U-turns and a fall in the party’s poll ratings.

    Among those seen as vulnerable are education secretary Gavin Williamson, communities secretary Robert Jenrick and work and pensions secretary Thérèse Coffey... Names being tipped for returns to the top table include Jeremy Hunt and Liam Fox
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 26,626
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
    Oh great, so the autumn is going to be spent with two bunches of pranksters trying to punk each other by getting hold of tickets to their opponents' rallies.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,083
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
    Oh great, so the autumn is going to be spent with two bunches of pranksters trying to punk each other by getting hold of tickets to their opponents' rallies.
    It's assymmetrical, since only the GOP side think it's a good idea to hold rallies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,599
    Mr. B2, makes it sound like he's going to resign.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,286
    @Casino_Royale - a good header, well argued :+1:
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,286
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking (Guardian): Ministers are expecting a wide-ranging government reshuffle in September in which Boris Johnson will sack key figures who are judged to have underperformed in the Covid-19 crisis.

    Boris and Dom to resign then? ;)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 14,933

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    Stuck another hundred quid on the Dems winning.

    I can't believe some people on here got excited about the Trump Campaign lies about how many people were going to turn up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 29,154

    Mr. B2, makes it sound like he's going to resign.

    If he’s going to sack key figures who have messed up Covid 19 through being useless, does that mean Cummings is finally out?

    Incidentally it would be surprising to see Hunt and even Fox return unless they are guaranteed independence from Cummings’ meddling.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 3,599
    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 26,626
    Stocky said:

    Great piece CR, very thoughtful on a subject that has been worrying me greatly too. Did you pull your punches a bit, maybe? I`d have been harder-hitting I think. Best part: " I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it".

    Didn't someone once say that they wanted their (black) kids to grow up in a place where the important thing was not the colour of their skin, but the content of their character?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 33,816
    One of the best pieces I have ever read on this forum

    Many congratulations CR

    And above all else we all need to ditch the abuse and intolerance of other views and recognise nobody is superior to anyone else on the expression of their view, we are all entitled to our views and to argue for them with respect
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 14,933
    I see HYUFD's last hope (the genuinely very reasonable assumption which I share that is Don't Knows will vote No in a future SindyRef) is on a shoogly peg as the raw figure was Yes 50% No 43% DK 7%
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 33,816
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking (Guardian): Ministers are expecting a wide-ranging government reshuffle in September in which Boris Johnson will sack key figures who are judged to have underperformed in the Covid-19 crisis.

    Cabinet sources said the move was now seen as inevitable. They believe sweeping changes will be made in an attempt to defuse mounting discontent on the Tory backbenches following a stream of U-turns and a fall in the party’s poll ratings.

    Among those seen as vulnerable are education secretary Gavin Williamson, communities secretary Robert Jenrick and work and pensions secretary Thérèse Coffey... Names being tipped for returns to the top table include Jeremy Hunt and Liam Fox

    Why wait until September leaving the above to continue with their incompetence
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 14,933
    edited June 21
    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Great piece CR, very thoughtful on a subject that has been worrying me greatly too. Did you pull your punches a bit, maybe? I`d have been harder-hitting I think. Best part: " I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it".

    Didn't someone once say that they wanted their (black) kids to grow up in a place where the important thing was not the colour of their skin, but the content of their character?
    Yes, they also said they wanted massive, extraordinary redress for historical injustice. As it would be impossible to reach preffered end state without it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 3,599
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking (Guardian): Ministers are expecting a wide-ranging government reshuffle in September in which Boris Johnson will sack key figures who are judged to have underperformed in the Covid-19 crisis.

    If the schools don't go back, BoZo will be the one getting reshuffled
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    Interesting article, well written and in normal times I would agree with everything that is said. But these are not normal times, there have been illegal riots which are seeking to overthrow the British state as we knew it and erase its history.

    The ideas behind these protests are not that different to any previous communist revolution, or any theocratic uprising. They are a direct challenge to liberal democracy.

    The choice is either that this is crushed and the woke are manouvred out of the universities, media and large capitalist enterprises or they win and get to impose their own vision of society on us. Both visions involve the end of the liberal democratic state as we knew it.

    It is clear to me that many people here, at least in public, are quite willing to make their accommodations with the woke. Right now that seems like the right call. There is no effective opposition to what they are doing.

    Under the old order I would have been regarded 'liberal left' but even I can see that this is turning in to a choice between living in Putins Russia or the Khymer Rouge.

    The option of living in a state where you can keep your head down and avoid trouble but stay secure, retain some sense of personal, private freedom is, when all things are considered, preferable over living in an intrusive revolutionary state which seeks to remake human nature.

    Both are awful choices. By contrast, the liberal Britain that we knew and has existed for most of our lifetimes was a utopia. But right now it feels like it is lost forever. It wont be saved by bowing to the mob.

    Sorry to depress you all on Sunday morning. Enjoy your freedom while you still have it.




  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 7,673
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
    Oh great, so the autumn is going to be spent with two bunches of pranksters trying to punk each other by getting hold of tickets to their opponents' rallies.
    The ghost of Richard Nixon roars laughing. Who can forget his hilarious Dirty Tricks Department.
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60

    A really excellent piece. I am sick fed up being told I live in a racist country by some people who are either not British citizens or have contributed very little to civic society.

    Racism in all its forms is abhorant. If we are going to teach about slavery which led to millions of Africans being transported to the West Indies and Southern States are we also going to teach about the indigenous African tribes who sold their fellow countrymen to white Europeans because they fetched a higher price than selling them to Arabs! Are we going to address the fact that slavery is still endemic in some parts of the African continent.

    Expecting "white Europeans"to "give the knee" is absurd. It is a form of protest adopted by black US basketball players and other sportsmen to quite properly highlight the appalling treatment they receive in THEIR own country. Listening to an overseas student at Oxford demand that Cecil Rhodes statue be removed made my blood boil. No-one asked him to come and study in the UK, he chose to!

    As for the rush for reparations etc, are we going to bulldoze the centre of Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow, all built on the proceeds of slavery! Are we going to pull down Hadrian's Wall and demand reparation from Italy because the Romans slaughtered millions of Britons during their almost 500 year occupation of our islands?

    I live with the heritage of colonial slavery every day. Like ALL other Highland families we are steeped in it. Look at the names of the plantations in Jamaica or St Vincent. You will find they are named after almost every village or town round the Moray Firth in the Scottish Highlands. For the last 2-3 years I have made contact with or been contacted by mixed race cousins who are themselves the descendants of a white plantation owner/manager and a black freed or slave woman. With absolutely no sense of grievance they are keen to share with me, their cousin, their particular family story and learn about our shared family history back to the Norman Conquest. My cousins are my cousins, whether they be products of the union of a white master and black slave woman in St Vincent or a young white officer in the Honourable East India Company and the daughter of a Maharaja.

    We need to stop looking at history through the moral views of the 21st century and address the issues of today - health, housing and education and why black British people tend to do badly in access to or sharing off these resources. That will of course also require our black community to face up to why when we hear of a teenager being needlessly shot or killed in London, all too often she or he is a black teenager and the perpetrator is also a black teenager. As I said at the start, racism of all kinds is abhorrent but racism comes in many guises and colours!!

    As for Trump, he is simply beyond the pale but from his recent comments I have to say Biden is little better.

    Good post.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,056
    A "colour blind" society is a farcical and offensive proposition. It's saying you can you only treat BAME people with respect as long you don't realise they are BAME.

    I do agree with @whunter's proposition is that the old order is being swept away and will not return. Unlike them, I give it full throated welcome.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,599
    Letting Boris Johnson take a political bullet for any crisis failings has many advantages.

    1) It's fair, given he's in charge and some of the screwups (care homes, the app) were not merely predictable but widely predicted.
    2) He's incompetent, so removing him is beneficial to both the country and the Conservatives themselves.
    3) Sunak might get it, which would be a 250/1 winner.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,098
    edited June 21
    [Good header CR - I have always thought if you create separate identities /tribes/cultures especially based on biological facts like race then you create conflict (if not immediate then in the future). Best to focus on being colour blind not colour obsessed as you say. I thought this was my liberal thinking as it was not the case in my growing up (where races were more separate and tribal ) but then astonished to realise I am classed as a reactionary when listening to a black professor at a conference back in January 2020 saying that race identity is paramount and being colour blind is bad . I wonder if academics have pushed the narrative in the last few years to justify grants etc in this area and made things the way they are now (ie being colour blind is bad) (definitely worse than 5 years ago)- Of course once you are out of step with current race thinking then you are a racist or at least "part of the problem"
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 5,278
    With respect to the various debates about Scotland overnight there seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding from our most fervent Unionist Party rampers about the Union. Scotland did not join England, was not subjugated by England, is not under the control of England.

    The union was two equal powers joining to form a new Union of which the two powers would be joined. Scotland retains its own separate legal system. The idea that one partner- England - can stop the other partner from dissolving the Union is to suggest that the EU should have been able to stop the UK from leaving. Whilst I support the Union it is not up to me in England to tell Scotland what to do.

    That various PB Conservative and Unionists don't understand the Union is telling.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 26,675
    edited June 21

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking (Guardian): Ministers are expecting a wide-ranging government reshuffle in September in which Boris Johnson will sack key figures who are judged to have underperformed in the Covid-19 crisis.

    Cabinet sources said the move was now seen as inevitable. They believe sweeping changes will be made in an attempt to defuse mounting discontent on the Tory backbenches following a stream of U-turns and a fall in the party’s poll ratings.

    Among those seen as vulnerable are education secretary Gavin Williamson, communities secretary Robert Jenrick and work and pensions secretary Thérèse Coffey... Names being tipped for returns to the top table include Jeremy Hunt and Liam Fox

    Why wait until September leaving the above to continue with their incompetence
    Because we are stuck with the incompetence right at the top for the foreseeable?

    From the Daily Mail (yes, indeed): As one Minister complains: ‘What lay at the heart of all that was that no one trusts No 10 to hold the line on anything any more. No one’s going to go out and fight for a policy – even if it’s the right policy – because they think when the heat is on, they’ll fold. Cummings is the only thing they’ve actually dug in over. Everyone and everything else is expendable.’

    What’s also worrying Tory MPs is a suspicion that the mayhem of the past week may not be an aberration, but a return to normality. Boris’s stunning Election triumph has obscured the fact that retreats and confused and messy compromises were features of the early days of his administration.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 3,738
    Good header. Thanks.
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    Dura_Ace said:

    A "colour blind" society is a farcical and offensive proposition. It's saying you can you only treat BAME people with respect as long you don't realise they are BAME.

    I do agree with @whunter's proposition is that the old order is being swept away and will not return. Unlike them, I give it full throated welcome.

    The type of society being constructed is one where fast cars are criminalised.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,599
    Mr. Pioneers, you remember the Scots voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation vote, right?

    That was six years ago.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 2,782
    edited June 21
    Dura_Ace said:

    A "colour blind" society is a farcical and offensive proposition. It's saying you can you only treat BAME people with respect as long you don't realise they are BAME.

    I do agree with @whunter's proposition is that the old order is being swept away and will not return. Unlike them, I give it full throated welcome.

    No, it means treating everyone equally regardless of their skin colour - which is irrelevant - and not seeing the world as groups of imaginary collectives, fingering particular ones as "victim-groups" on condition that they never have the temerity to rise above said victimhood. It`s an deluded and unpleasant ideology which has no place in a liberal democracy.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 7,673
    Outstanding piece, Casino, and thank you for putting the case so well. The best bit?

    'I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it.'

    It's difficult but not impossible and it has to be done. Laws can help, but they will only take you so far. BLM can be a pain in the arse sometimes, especially when it allows itself to be hijacked by groups who wouldn't be given the time of day if they appeared under their own banner. But we can't shrug and give up just because of them.

    BLM has been a force for good because it's made so many of us realise that some sort of formal equality is not sufficient, it needs a society wide change of attitude to eliminate the kind of casual everyday racism that we barely notice, unless we're on the receiving end. When we get rid of that, we'll be neither color blind nor color obsessed.

    I won't be alive when it happens, but I'll be doing what I can in the meantime.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 1,696
    Excellent article, but occasionally it is veering into a wish list, and it is not easy to disagree with the thought that "it's time we all found a way to get along."

    But what about this. CR says: "In a liberal society speech is what we use...". I agree. But loads don't. For extremists of every sort - left, right, religious, woke, no-platformers, climate campaigners, single issue fanatics and so on - the liberal society is not the solution, it is the problem. The place people give to liberal values is more or less the simple way if identifying an extremist, whether it is Trump, the BNP, SWP, XR, Hamas or whatever.

    How will CR defend his (and my) liberal values against those who say it has failed to deliver anything like justice (or whatever) and isn't going to? There are a lot of anti-liberals around.

  • StockyStocky Posts: 2,782
    edited June 21

    Outstanding piece, Casino, and thank you for putting the case so well. The best bit?

    'I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it.'

    It's difficult but not impossible and it has to be done. Laws can help, but they will only take you so far. BLM can be a pain in the arse sometimes, especially when it allows itself to be hijacked by groups who wouldn't be given the time of day if they appeared under their own banner. But we can't shrug and give up just because of them.

    BLM has been a force for good because it's made so many of us realise that some sort of formal equality is not sufficient, it needs a society wide change of attitude to eliminate the kind of casual everyday racism that we barely notice, unless we're on the receiving end. When we get rid of that, we'll be neither color blind nor color obsessed.

    I won't be alive when it happens, but I'll be doing what I can in the meantime.

    Racists need to be treated with disdain, always. No-one doubts there is racism about. What BLM focuses on is structural racism. That`s a different thing and we need to remember that. That there are bad apples doesn`t mean that the whole barrel is rotten.
  • eekeek Posts: 8,141

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking (Guardian): Ministers are expecting a wide-ranging government reshuffle in September in which Boris Johnson will sack key figures who are judged to have underperformed in the Covid-19 crisis.

    Cabinet sources said the move was now seen as inevitable. They believe sweeping changes will be made in an attempt to defuse mounting discontent on the Tory backbenches following a stream of U-turns and a fall in the party’s poll ratings.

    Among those seen as vulnerable are education secretary Gavin Williamson, communities secretary Robert Jenrick and work and pensions secretary Thérèse Coffey... Names being tipped for returns to the top table include Jeremy Hunt and Liam Fox

    Why wait until September leaving the above to continue with their incompetence
    I’m at a loss as to why any former Government minister Tory MP would want to head back into Government at the moment.

    What upside is there for them?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 5,278
    Great piece CR. Surely a key plant of the unsettled nature of this country today is the unsettled nature of this country - or is that countries. We stand at the crossroads in so many ways - a Constitutional Commission is needed to create a state fit for purpose. That we can hardly describe ourselves (England? Britain? GB? UK?) is the heart of our problem.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 35,920
    Thanks for your generous and kind words this morning - much appreciated.

    I am looking after my daughter this morning (it is father's day!) but if I get a chance to log in later and engage below the line I will do so.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,727
    A fine article.

    Brexit did not cause, but did reveal, the existence of two tribes in the UK with very different views about our history and identity. Reactions to BLM protests reveal pretty much the same fault line.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,056

    Mr. Pioneers, you remember the Scots voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation vote, right?

    That was six years ago.

    They voted to stay in the UK that was part of the EU. Johnson upended that ludo board into the fireplace and is a sufficiently fundamental change that another referendum is warranted if they ask for it.

    How long is a "generation" anyway?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 14,933
    FTPT
    dixiedean said:

    I see 1000 people at that German meat processing plant have now tested positive. Covid certainly loves those places.

    How many work there out of interest if you know? That is a serious blow to the idea that most won't catch it.
    But its great for "only certain situations really spread it" theory.

    Just need to work out the exact factors then everything can open up as long as we don't create 'perfect storm' situations.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 2,782

    [Good header CR - I have always thought if you create separate identities /tribes/cultures especially based on biological facts like race then you create conflict (if not immediate then in the future). Best to focus on being colour blind not colour obsessed as you say. I thought this was my liberal thinking as it was not the case in my growing up (where races were more separate and tribal ) but then astonished to realise I am classed as a reactionary when listening to a black professor at a conference back in January 2020 saying that race identity is paramount and being colour blind is bad . I wonder if academics have pushed the narrative in the last few years to justify grants etc in this area and made things the way they are now (ie being colour blind is bad) (definitely worse than 5 years ago)- Of course once you are out of step with current race thinking then you are a racist or at least "part of the problem"

    Came as a shock to me when speaking with some family - who gleefully advertise their woke credentials - that not recognising colour when you met someone new is morally wrong and, therefore, so is liberaliism. There you go.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 7,673
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic...

    The US has two problems that the UK does not:

    1. The police are a paramilitary organisation. In the UK, or France, or Canada, or Italy, there is roughly a one-to-one ratio between the number of police killed by criminals, and the number of criminals (and others) killed by the police. In the US, more than 1,000 we're shot and killed by the police last year, and another 1,600 died in police custody. In total, 89 police were killed in the line of duty. That's a 30-1 ratio.

    2. Behaviour, as CR has pointed out, is accepted from white people (such as donning assault weapons and occupying the state senate), that would not be accepted from African Americans. There is a legacy of racism in the US, going all the way back to slavery, that has not been eradicated.

    Both these problems need to be solved. But they are separate issues.

    Isn't that 30:1 ratio a reflection of the absurd gun laws though, Robert? If you are going to allow the public to arm themselves to the teeth them you are going to have a lot of them mown down by cops attempting to maintain order. Restrict the availability of guns and you immediately lessen the need for the police to use them.

    It's not going to happen, we know, but that doesn't stop it from being bleeding obvious.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,378

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic...

    The US has two problems that the UK does not:

    1. The police are a paramilitary organisation. In the UK, or France, or Canada, or Italy, there is roughly a one-to-one ratio between the number of police killed by criminals, and the number of criminals (and others) killed by the police. In the US, more than 1,000 we're shot and killed by the police last year, and another 1,600 died in police custody. In total, 89 police were killed in the line of duty. That's a 30-1 ratio.

    2. Behaviour, as CR has pointed out, is accepted from white people (such as donning assault weapons and occupying the state senate), that would not be accepted from African Americans. There is a legacy of racism in the US, going all the way back to slavery, that has not been eradicated.

    Both these problems need to be solved. But they are separate issues.

    Isn't that 30:1 ratio a reflection of the absurd gun laws though, Robert? If you are going to allow the public to arm themselves to the teeth them you are going to have a lot of them mown down by cops attempting to maintain order. Restrict the availability of guns and you immediately lessen the need for the police to use them.

    It's not going to happen, we know, but that doesn't stop it from being bleeding obvious.
    Yeah, except the Switzerland has a very similar level of private gun ownership the US and manages a 2.2:1 ratio.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 22,337
    Stocky said:

    Great piece CR, very thoughtful on a subject that has been worrying me greatly too. Did you pull your punches a bit, maybe? I`d have been harder-hitting I think. Best part: " I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it".

    No, I think pulling punches is essential in the current environment; the alternative is mutual escalation.
    I think that is what makes it a good piece.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 2,782
    rcs1000 said:

    @whunter

    The IRA was avowedly Leninist-Marxist. Yet practically none of their supporters signed up to that, They signed up for Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining Eire.

    The same is true of most of the supporters of BLM. They care about - however carelessly defined - "racial injustice". Most of them love their Nike trainers and wouldn't dream of overthrowing capitalism.

    The manifestos of these groups are defined by a small number of people who are happy to argue the toss until 2am. But there is no chance of the manifesto being implemented, and those - by and large - that march under the BLM banner don't give two figs for some kind of global communist rebellion.

    The real issue with BLM is not the loony and the nutters. It is the criminals who see marches and riots as an opportunity to pillage and to steal, or an opportunity to give it to the "enemy" via a swift punch to the head. And those people need to be identified and imprisoned.

    You say "those - by and large - that march under the BLM banner don't give two figs for some kind of global communist rebellion". I agree.

    Came as shock to me a few days ago when a poll showed that 59% of people in the UK support BLM. I can only assume that they have no idea what it is that they are supporting. Black Lives Matter is a clever moniker because one may be reluctant to say that you don`t support it because it sounds like you are saying that black lives don`t matter.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,286

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic...

    The US has two problems that the UK does not:

    1. The police are a paramilitary organisation. In the UK, or France, or Canada, or Italy, there is roughly a one-to-one ratio between the number of police killed by criminals, and the number of criminals (and others) killed by the police. In the US, more than 1,000 we're shot and killed by the police last year, and another 1,600 died in police custody. In total, 89 police were killed in the line of duty. That's a 30-1 ratio.

    2. Behaviour, as CR has pointed out, is accepted from white people (such as donning assault weapons and occupying the state senate), that would not be accepted from African Americans. There is a legacy of racism in the US, going all the way back to slavery, that has not been eradicated.

    Both these problems need to be solved. But they are separate issues.

    Isn't that 30:1 ratio a reflection of the absurd gun laws though, Robert? If you are going to allow the public to arm themselves to the teeth them you are going to have a lot of them mown down by cops attempting to maintain order. Restrict the availability of guns and you immediately lessen the need for the police to use them.

    It's not going to happen, we know, but that doesn't stop it from being bleeding obvious.
    Police in the US have a lot of immunity for their actions. If they believe there is a suspect in your house and the riddle it with gunfire, they are not liable to fix the damage (there have been cases of this). Also look up "Civil Asset Forfeiture" where the Police can simply stop you and take your money and then spend it on departmental things, office equipment or even subsidising their wage bill

    https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/asset-forfeiture-abuse
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,378

    Outstanding piece, Casino, and thank you for putting the case so well. The best bit?

    'I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it.'

    It's difficult but not impossible and it has to be done. Laws can help, but they will only take you so far. BLM can be a pain in the arse sometimes, especially when it allows itself to be hijacked by groups who wouldn't be given the time of day if they appeared under their own banner. But we can't shrug and give up just because of them.

    BLM has been a force for good because it's made so many of us realise that some sort of formal equality is not sufficient, it needs a society wide change of attitude to eliminate the kind of casual everyday racism that we barely notice, unless we're on the receiving end. When we get rid of that, we'll be neither color blind nor color obsessed.

    I won't be alive when it happens, but I'll be doing what I can in the meantime.

    Living in the US, the thing that really stood out to me was that a group of white people with assault rifles were able to occupy the State Senate building. While a black man, just two days later, who was suspected (incorrectly) of carrying a weapon was gunned down by police a few hundred yards from the same building.

    I think it's reasonable to assume that a "black militia" would not have been allowed to occupy the State Senate. And a white man suspected of carrying a firearm would probably not have been shot on the street.

    But these are US problem, not UK ones. The UK has issues, but they are far less serious than US ones. We would do well to remember that.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 3,738
    edited June 21
    rcs1000 said:

    @whunter

    The IRA was avowedly Leninist-Marxist. Yet practically none of their supporters signed up to that, They signed up for Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining Eire.

    The same is true of most of the supporters of BLM. They care about - however carelessly defined - "racial injustice". Most of them love their Nike trainers and wouldn't dream of overthrowing capitalism.

    The manifestos of these groups are defined by a small number of people who are happy to argue the toss until 2am. But there is no chance of the manifesto being implemented, and those - by and large - that march under the BLM banner don't give two figs for some kind of global communist rebellion.

    The real issue with BLM is not the loony and the nutters. It is the criminals who see marches and riots as an opportunity to pillage and to steal, or an opportunity to give it to the "enemy" via a swift punch to the head. And those people need to be identified and imprisoned.

    Who are BLM?

    I still don't know, and the £1 million fund-raiser is still completely anonymous afaics.

    For all I know that money has gone to a Trotter Trading character from Penge who is about to vanish abroad.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,378
    Stocky said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @whunter

    The IRA was avowedly Leninist-Marxist. Yet practically none of their supporters signed up to that, They signed up for Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining Eire.

    The same is true of most of the supporters of BLM. They care about - however carelessly defined - "racial injustice". Most of them love their Nike trainers and wouldn't dream of overthrowing capitalism.

    The manifestos of these groups are defined by a small number of people who are happy to argue the toss until 2am. But there is no chance of the manifesto being implemented, and those - by and large - that march under the BLM banner don't give two figs for some kind of global communist rebellion.

    The real issue with BLM is not the loony and the nutters. It is the criminals who see marches and riots as an opportunity to pillage and to steal, or an opportunity to give it to the "enemy" via a swift punch to the head. And those people need to be identified and imprisoned.

    You say "those - by and large - that march under the BLM banner don't give two figs for some kind of global communist rebellion". I agree.

    Came as shock to me a few days ago when a poll showed that 59% of people in the UK support BLM. I can only assume that they have no idea what it is that they are supporting. Black Lives Matter is a clever moniker because one may be reluctant to say that you don`t support it because it sounds like you are saying that black lives don`t matter.
    Exactly.

    And I suspect that you would have found that 59% of Irishmen would have supported the goals of the IRA, without realising that included the ending of the concept of private property.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 22,337

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
    Oh great, so the autumn is going to be spent with two bunches of pranksters trying to punk each other by getting hold of tickets to their opponents' rallies.
    The ghost of Richard Nixon roars laughing. Who can forget his hilarious Dirty Tricks Department.
    I don’t remember Nixon having a few million K-Pop fans self organising on his behalf...
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,098
    edited June 21
    The US is without doubt more historically colour obsessed than the UK . They have worse race relations built up over time than us . Why are we now expected to think being colour blind is a bad thing by academics and BLM? Do we want to get like the US in this in 10 years time? No of course not. Stop this madness about separating people into boxes (into one culture and background) based on skin colour .Its bad enough when doing it with religion but even more patronising and illogical when based on colour
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 3,599

    Police in the US have a lot of immunity for their actions. If they believe there is a suspect in your house and the riddle it with gunfire, they are not liable to fix the damage (there have been cases of this). Also look up "Civil Asset Forfeiture" where the Police can simply stop you and take your money and then spend it on departmental things, office equipment or even subsidising their wage bill

    https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/asset-forfeiture-abuse

    I had a discussion recently with my gun owning US colleagues about liability.

    The laws obviously vary by state, but in general if you are going to shoot someone and limit liability, do it in your own home, and make sure they are dead was the advice.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 970
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic...

    The US has two problems that the UK does not:

    1. The police are a paramilitary organisation. In the UK, or France, or Canada, or Italy, there is roughly a one-to-one ratio between the number of police killed by criminals, and the number of criminals (and others) killed by the police. In the US, more than 1,000 we're shot and killed by the police last year, and another 1,600 died in police custody. In total, 89 police were killed in the line of duty. That's a 30-1 ratio.

    2. Behaviour, as CR has pointed out, is accepted from white people (such as donning assault weapons and occupying the state senate), that would not be accepted from African Americans. There is a legacy of racism in the US, going all the way back to slavery, that has not been eradicated.

    Both these problems need to be solved. But they are separate issues.

    Isn't that 30:1 ratio a reflection of the absurd gun laws though, Robert? If you are going to allow the public to arm themselves to the teeth them you are going to have a lot of them mown down by cops attempting to maintain order. Restrict the availability of guns and you immediately lessen the need for the police to use them.

    It's not going to happen, we know, but that doesn't stop it from being bleeding obvious.
    Yeah, except the Switzerland has a very similar level of private gun ownership the US and manages a 2.2:1 ratio.
    It's always bizarre when American gun nuts hold up Switzerland as some kind of counter-example.

    Switzerland has many fewer guns per head than the US: only one gun for every four people in private hands, whereas America has more than one gun per person. Swiss background checks are much tougher, and the authorities have lists of psychologically dangerous people they check up on regularly. And Switzerland still has the highest rate of gun deaths in Europe.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,286
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mr. Pioneers, you remember the Scots voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation vote, right?

    That was six years ago.

    They voted to stay in the UK that was part of the EU. Johnson upended that ludo board into the fireplace and is a sufficiently fundamental change that another referendum is warranted if they ask for it.

    How long is a "generation" anyway?
    That might depend on where you are, in parts of Manchester it was about 16 years :D
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 7,673
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
    Oh great, so the autumn is going to be spent with two bunches of pranksters trying to punk each other by getting hold of tickets to their opponents' rallies.
    The ghost of Richard Nixon roars laughing. Who can forget his hilarious Dirty Tricks Department.
    I don’t remember Nixon having a few million K-Pop fans self organising on his behalf...
    I think he can be credited as a pioneer of the art form.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 2,782
    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Great piece CR, very thoughtful on a subject that has been worrying me greatly too. Did you pull your punches a bit, maybe? I`d have been harder-hitting I think. Best part: " I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it".

    No, I think pulling punches is essential in the current environment; the alternative is mutual escalation.
    I think that is what makes it a good piece.
    I think the government agree with you, hence their relatively mild to non-existent response to the vandalism. You may be right, but I`m left worried by the watering down of our liberal democracy.

    As a liberal I`d say that anyway, of course, but I worry that conservatives and collectivists take for granted the benefits of living in a liberal democracy and would themselves miss it when its gone.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,599
    Mr. Ace, leaving the UK would've also entailed leaving the EU.

    The referendum pledge was known about at the time of the independence vote.

    Had Scotland voted to leave would we now be discussing having another referendum? Of course not. But fanatics believe referendum results only count if they go the 'right' way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,365

    Outstanding piece, Casino, and thank you for putting the case so well. The best bit?

    'I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it.'

    It's difficult but not impossible and it has to be done. Laws can help, but they will only take you so far. BLM can be a pain in the arse sometimes, especially when it allows itself to be hijacked by groups who wouldn't be given the time of day if they appeared under their own banner. But we can't shrug and give up just because of them.

    BLM has been a force for good because it's made so many of us realise that some sort of formal equality is not sufficient, it needs a society wide change of attitude to eliminate the kind of casual everyday racism that we barely notice, unless we're on the receiving end. When we get rid of that, we'll be neither color blind nor color obsessed.

    I won't be alive when it happens, but I'll be doing what I can in the meantime.

    Good post. The anti capitalist, anti family, open borders ideology of the founders of BLM is by the by. Such ideas are clearly not supported by the vast majority of protestors, nor according to polling a very large share of the British public who are supportive but not protesting. People are not being manipulated, they are catching the zeitgeist.

    Being "colour blind" is not an adequate response, though a better one than being overtly racist, as ignoring injustices does not help in their elimination. It does not require us to be "colour obsessed" but does require awareness.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 22,337

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
    Oh great, so the autumn is going to be spent with two bunches of pranksters trying to punk each other by getting hold of tickets to their opponents' rallies.
    The ghost of Richard Nixon roars laughing. Who can forget his hilarious Dirty Tricks Department.
    I don’t remember Nixon having a few million K-Pop fans self organising on his behalf...
    I think he can be credited as a pioneer of the art form.
    Conjures up an interesting image. :smile:
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 7,673
    rcs1000 said:

    Outstanding piece, Casino, and thank you for putting the case so well. The best bit?

    'I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it.'

    It's difficult but not impossible and it has to be done. Laws can help, but they will only take you so far. BLM can be a pain in the arse sometimes, especially when it allows itself to be hijacked by groups who wouldn't be given the time of day if they appeared under their own banner. But we can't shrug and give up just because of them.

    BLM has been a force for good because it's made so many of us realise that some sort of formal equality is not sufficient, it needs a society wide change of attitude to eliminate the kind of casual everyday racism that we barely notice, unless we're on the receiving end. When we get rid of that, we'll be neither color blind nor color obsessed.

    I won't be alive when it happens, but I'll be doing what I can in the meantime.

    Living in the US, the thing that really stood out to me was that a group of white people with assault rifles were able to occupy the State Senate building. While a black man, just two days later, who was suspected (incorrectly) of carrying a weapon was gunned down by police a few hundred yards from the same building.

    I think it's reasonable to assume that a "black militia" would not have been allowed to occupy the State Senate. And a white man suspected of carrying a firearm would probably not have been shot on the street.

    But these are US problem, not UK ones. The UK has issues, but they are far less serious than US ones. We would do well to remember that.
    Agreed, Robert, at the risk of labouring the point, one big difference is the availability of firearms.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 970
    edited June 21
    Sean_F said:

    A fine article.

    Brexit did not cause, but did reveal, the existence of two tribes in the UK with very different views about our history and identity. Reactions to BLM protests reveal pretty much the same fault line.

    Yes, and it's startingly similar to the main political divide (the "salient cleavage", as a politics professor of mine used to call it) in the United States since the civil rights movement/Vietnam War/Roe v Wade: stereotypically the patriotic/bigoted white lower class on one extreme and the Marxist/caring educated elites on the other, with the rest in the middle somewhere.

    It's where identity politics gets you.

    Is it possible to have a multi-racial society without identity politics? I would like to believe it is, but I'm not sure. None spring to mind.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 26,626
    edited June 21
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic...

    The US has two problems that the UK does not:

    1. The police are a paramilitary organisation. In the UK, or France, or Canada, or Italy, there is roughly a one-to-one ratio between the number of police killed by criminals, and the number of criminals (and others) killed by the police. In the US, more than 1,000 we're shot and killed by the police last year, and another 1,600 died in police custody. In total, 89 police were killed in the line of duty. That's a 30-1 ratio.

    2. Behaviour, as CR has pointed out, is accepted from white people (such as donning assault weapons and occupying the state senate), that would not be accepted from African Americans. There is a legacy of racism in the US, going all the way back to slavery, that has not been eradicated.

    Both these problems need to be solved. But they are separate issues.

    Isn't that 30:1 ratio a reflection of the absurd gun laws though, Robert? If you are going to allow the public to arm themselves to the teeth them you are going to have a lot of them mown down by cops attempting to maintain order. Restrict the availability of guns and you immediately lessen the need for the police to use them.

    It's not going to happen, we know, but that doesn't stop it from being bleeding obvious.
    Yeah, except the Switzerland has a very similar level of private gun ownership the US and manages a 2.2:1 ratio.
    The difference is rooted in American culture, an ingrained distrust of authority and government supported by the constitutional right to bear arms - in order to keep reminding those in charge that they are the servants of the nation, rather than the masters of it.

    It's a very difficult place to police, when in almost every situation it has to be assumed that everyone is armed. How this gets de-escalated is the $64,000 question, but arming the police like they're the army definitely isn't the way to start.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 14,933
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    CNN on Trump wanting to slow testing: An administration official told CNN that the President was "obviously kidding." But the Biden campaign and Democratic organizations are now racing to get this comment in as many ads as possible, a Biden aide and operatives from multiple Democratic super PACs tell CNN.

    If Trump can't fill a hall in Tulsa............
    Does look as though the wheels are coming off!
    It seems that a bunch of youngsters used a Korean music site to organise a mass request for tickets, never intending to actually go along.
    Oh great, so the autumn is going to be spent with two bunches of pranksters trying to punk each other by getting hold of tickets to their opponents' rallies.
    The ghost of Richard Nixon roars laughing. Who can forget his hilarious Dirty Tricks Department.
    I don’t remember Nixon having a few million K-Pop fans self organising on his behalf...
    Don't fuck with the BTS army.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 5,278
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mr. Pioneers, you remember the Scots voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation vote, right?

    That was six years ago.

    They voted to stay in the UK that was part of the EU. Johnson upended that ludo board into the fireplace and is a sufficiently fundamental change that another referendum is warranted if they ask for it.

    How long is a "generation" anyway?
    Can I refer Mr Dancer back to the basic point which is that it is not up to England what Scotland does in a Union of Equals. If events mean Scotland changes it's mind then fine. The Union in question only came into being at the 4th attempt. We had two re-elections before the end of the 2015 parliament because the party who won the 2015 election didn't like the result...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,378
    I note, by the way, a broad degree of agreement between both Remain and Leave commentators on the site about this being a high quality article with much to recommend it.

    Maybe @Sean_F's two tribes have more in common than most of us admit.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,098
    history shows us time and time again when you have separate cultures you get conflict. when those cultures or races merge you get harmony - We have made a lot of progress in the last 80 years in this with inter racial marriage, immigration and the chance of individuals to mix more outside their race. Lets not store up trouble by reversing this and putting people back into separate boxes .
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    edited June 21
    rcs1000 said:

    @whunter

    The IRA was avowedly Leninist-Marxist. Yet practically none of their supporters signed up to that, They signed up for Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining Eire.

    The same is true of most of the supporters of BLM. They care about - however carelessly defined - "racial injustice". Most of them love their Nike trainers and wouldn't dream of overthrowing capitalism.

    The manifestos of these groups are defined by a small number of people who are happy to argue the toss until 2am. But there is no chance of the manifesto being implemented, and those - by and large - that march under the BLM banner don't give two figs for some kind of global communist rebellion.

    The real issue with BLM is not the loony and the nutters. It is the criminals who see marches and riots as an opportunity to pillage and to steal, or an opportunity to give it to the "enemy" via a swift punch to the head. And those people need to be identified and imprisoned.

    I appreciate your thoughts and response, but I do think this is quite a familiar line of reasoning on the part of the existing order prior to revolutions.

    In part it feels like a denial of the significance of events. The people pulling down the statues are not the mad fringe or the criminals. It is also evidence of making intellectual accommodations with the incoming regime (the line of thought goes - they aren't that bad, their aims are good, we can work with them....)

    The slight historical novelty here is that, at least at this point, the revolution against the old order is being driven to some extent by capitalist elites themselves.

    As for the IRA, we might not have seen the last of them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,378
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic...

    The US has two problems that the UK does not:

    1. The police are a paramilitary organisation. In the UK, or France, or Canada, or Italy, there is roughly a one-to-one ratio between the number of police killed by criminals, and the number of criminals (and others) killed by the police. In the US, more than 1,000 we're shot and killed by the police last year, and another 1,600 died in police custody. In total, 89 police were killed in the line of duty. That's a 30-1 ratio.

    2. Behaviour, as CR has pointed out, is accepted from white people (such as donning assault weapons and occupying the state senate), that would not be accepted from African Americans. There is a legacy of racism in the US, going all the way back to slavery, that has not been eradicated.

    Both these problems need to be solved. But they are separate issues.

    Isn't that 30:1 ratio a reflection of the absurd gun laws though, Robert? If you are going to allow the public to arm themselves to the teeth them you are going to have a lot of them mown down by cops attempting to maintain order. Restrict the availability of guns and you immediately lessen the need for the police to use them.

    It's not going to happen, we know, but that doesn't stop it from being bleeding obvious.
    Yeah, except the Switzerland has a very similar level of private gun ownership the US and manages a 2.2:1 ratio.
    The difference is rooted in American culture, an ingrained distrust of authority and government supported by the constitutional right to bear arms - in order to keep reminding those in charge that they are the servants of the nation, rather than the masters of it.

    It's a very difficult place to police, when in almost every situation it has to be assumed that everyone is armed. How this gets de-escalated is the $64,000 question, but arming the police like they're the army definitely isn't the way to start.
    I've recommended this article about 100 times. It's still worth reading:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-came-home
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 14,933

    rcs1000 said:

    Outstanding piece, Casino, and thank you for putting the case so well. The best bit?

    'I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it.'

    It's difficult but not impossible and it has to be done. Laws can help, but they will only take you so far. BLM can be a pain in the arse sometimes, especially when it allows itself to be hijacked by groups who wouldn't be given the time of day if they appeared under their own banner. But we can't shrug and give up just because of them.

    BLM has been a force for good because it's made so many of us realise that some sort of formal equality is not sufficient, it needs a society wide change of attitude to eliminate the kind of casual everyday racism that we barely notice, unless we're on the receiving end. When we get rid of that, we'll be neither color blind nor color obsessed.

    I won't be alive when it happens, but I'll be doing what I can in the meantime.

    Living in the US, the thing that really stood out to me was that a group of white people with assault rifles were able to occupy the State Senate building. While a black man, just two days later, who was suspected (incorrectly) of carrying a weapon was gunned down by police a few hundred yards from the same building.

    I think it's reasonable to assume that a "black militia" would not have been allowed to occupy the State Senate. And a white man suspected of carrying a firearm would probably not have been shot on the street.

    But these are US problem, not UK ones. The UK has issues, but they are far less serious than US ones. We would do well to remember that.
    Agreed, Robert, at the risk of labouring the point, one big difference is the availability of firearms.
    Sure but Canada has a huge quantity of fire arms per person and no mass epidemic of police shootings. Ditto Finland and Switzerland, Iceland etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,092
    edited June 21
    Alistair said:

    I see HYUFD's last hope (the genuinely very reasonable assumption which I share that is Don't Knows will vote No in a future SindyRef) is on a shoogly peg as the raw figure was Yes 50% No 43% DK 7%

    So 50% 50% on that basis, still certainly no grounds for another indyref and not respecting the 'once in a generation' referendum of 2014
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 4,877

    Dura_Ace said:

    Mr. Pioneers, you remember the Scots voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation vote, right?

    That was six years ago.

    They voted to stay in the UK that was part of the EU. Johnson upended that ludo board into the fireplace and is a sufficiently fundamental change that another referendum is warranted if they ask for it.

    How long is a "generation" anyway?
    Can I refer Mr Dancer back to the basic point which is that it is not up to England what Scotland does in a Union of Equals. If events mean Scotland changes it's mind then fine. The Union in question only came into being at the 4th attempt. We had two re-elections before the end of the 2015 parliament because the party who won the 2015 election didn't like the result...
    Yes. And we can safely assume that a second referendum in Scotland that resulted in a second No vote would result in the defeated side starting the campaign for a third vote the next day. And, because they have a solid grip on the Scottish Parliament, they'd get it before many more years had passed. And then, if necessary, a fourth, fifth and sixth. Rinse, repeat.

    This is just one of the reasons why we should hope for and embrace the end of the Union. It would bring clarity, and resolve a lot of problems.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 20,579
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mr. Pioneers, you remember the Scots voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation vote, right?

    That was six years ago.

    They voted to stay in the UK that was part of the EU. Johnson upended that ludo board into the fireplace and is a sufficiently fundamental change that another referendum is warranted if they ask for it.

    How long is a "generation" anyway?
    In NI with regard to the gaps between hypothetical border polls, a political generation is 6 years. That's different apparently, because UK government's only bow to threats of terrorist violence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 22,337
    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Great piece CR, very thoughtful on a subject that has been worrying me greatly too. Did you pull your punches a bit, maybe? I`d have been harder-hitting I think. Best part: " I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it".

    No, I think pulling punches is essential in the current environment; the alternative is mutual escalation.
    I think that is what makes it a good piece.
    I think the government agree with you, hence their relatively mild to non-existent response to the vandalism. You may be right, but I`m left worried by the watering down of our liberal democracy.

    As a liberal I`d say that anyway, of course, but I worry that conservatives and collectivists take for granted the benefits of living in a liberal democracy and would themselves miss it when its gone.
    I was talking about the rhetoric, but I take your point.

    However, the heavy handed response in large parts of the US has not been notably successful. And given our much lower police numbers, policing with consent is the only viable response in any case.
    It’s going to be a very difficult line to tread, and we don’t have the most adroit of governments to lead the way.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,056

    Mr. Ace, leaving the UK would've also entailed leaving the EU.

    The referendum pledge was known about at the time of the independence vote.

    Had Scotland voted to leave would we now be discussing having another referendum? Of course not. But fanatics believe referendum results only count if they go the 'right' way.

    At the time the Scottish were told that enduring poena cullei English was the only way for them to remain in the EU. JY Le Drian (French Foreign Minister) has recently said that an independent Scotland would have 'sa propre place' in the EU. There is no doubt they would have the quickest accession ever, if only to spite the English and to a lesser degree the Welsh.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 3,738

    [Good header CR - I have always thought if you create separate identities /tribes/cultures especially based on biological facts like race then you create conflict (if not immediate then in the future). Best to focus on being colour blind not colour obsessed as you say. I thought this was my liberal thinking as it was not the case in my growing up (where races were more separate and tribal ) but then astonished to realise I am classed as a reactionary when listening to a black professor at a conference back in January 2020 saying that race identity is paramount and being colour blind is bad . I wonder if academics have pushed the narrative in the last few years to justify grants etc in this area and made things the way they are now (ie being colour blind is bad) (definitely worse than 5 years ago)- Of course once you are out of step with current race thinking then you are a racist or at least "part of the problem"

    I think the terminology "biological fact of race" is problematic, and not very accurate - based on eg genetics.

    It's equally problematic imo when identitarian campaigners rely on the same race-based categories as alleged oppressors.

    But that then takes us into the 'self-identity' morass, whether Dolzeal, Warren, Jackie Walker or any of the others.

    No I don't have an answer.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,286
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Outstanding piece, Casino, and thank you for putting the case so well. The best bit?

    'I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it.'

    It's difficult but not impossible and it has to be done. Laws can help, but they will only take you so far. BLM can be a pain in the arse sometimes, especially when it allows itself to be hijacked by groups who wouldn't be given the time of day if they appeared under their own banner. But we can't shrug and give up just because of them.

    BLM has been a force for good because it's made so many of us realise that some sort of formal equality is not sufficient, it needs a society wide change of attitude to eliminate the kind of casual everyday racism that we barely notice, unless we're on the receiving end. When we get rid of that, we'll be neither color blind nor color obsessed.

    I won't be alive when it happens, but I'll be doing what I can in the meantime.

    Living in the US, the thing that really stood out to me was that a group of white people with assault rifles were able to occupy the State Senate building. While a black man, just two days later, who was suspected (incorrectly) of carrying a weapon was gunned down by police a few hundred yards from the same building.

    I think it's reasonable to assume that a "black militia" would not have been allowed to occupy the State Senate. And a white man suspected of carrying a firearm would probably not have been shot on the street.

    But these are US problem, not UK ones. The UK has issues, but they are far less serious than US ones. We would do well to remember that.
    Agreed, Robert, at the risk of labouring the point, one big difference is the availability of firearms.
    Sure but Canada has a huge quantity of fire arms per person and no mass epidemic of police shootings. Ditto Finland and Switzerland, Iceland etc.
    Perhaps Canadian police are more constrained in how they can act and what they can get away with?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 7,673
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic...

    The US has two problems that the UK does not:

    1. The police are a paramilitary organisation. In the UK, or France, or Canada, or Italy, there is roughly a one-to-one ratio between the number of police killed by criminals, and the number of criminals (and others) killed by the police. In the US, more than 1,000 we're shot and killed by the police last year, and another 1,600 died in police custody. In total, 89 police were killed in the line of duty. That's a 30-1 ratio.

    2. Behaviour, as CR has pointed out, is accepted from white people (such as donning assault weapons and occupying the state senate), that would not be accepted from African Americans. There is a legacy of racism in the US, going all the way back to slavery, that has not been eradicated.

    Both these problems need to be solved. But they are separate issues.

    Isn't that 30:1 ratio a reflection of the absurd gun laws though, Robert? If you are going to allow the public to arm themselves to the teeth them you are going to have a lot of them mown down by cops attempting to maintain order. Restrict the availability of guns and you immediately lessen the need for the police to use them.

    It's not going to happen, we know, but that doesn't stop it from being bleeding obvious.
    Yeah, except the Switzerland has a very similar level of private gun ownership the US and manages a 2.2:1 ratio.
    The difference is rooted in American culture, an ingrained distrust of authority and government supported by the constitutional right to bear arms - in order to keep reminding those in charge that they are the servants of the nation, rather than the masters of it.

    It's a very difficult place to police, when in almost every situation it has to be assumed that everyone is armed. How this gets de-escalated is the $64,000 question, but arming the police like they're the army definitely isn't the way to start.
    Can we just disabuse ourselves please of one misconception regarding the widely misquoted 2nd Amendment.

    It does indeed confer the right of citizens to bear arms but it does not restrict the State's right to stipulate what sort of arms and how and when they may be used. This is why you will be pulled up short should you try to park an Abrams tank on your front lawn or build a small thermonuclear device in your garden shed.

    The State could restrict gun ownership much further than it does already without even coming close to offending either the letter or the spirit of the 2nd Amendment. It could for example ban assault weapons. That it does not do so is down to various reasons, some of which you mention, but largely because the NRA has the politicians by the short and curlies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 54,584
    Stocky said:

    Great piece CR, very thoughtful on a subject that has been worrying me greatly too. Did you pull your punches a bit, maybe? I`d have been harder-hitting I think. Best part: " I’m worried some of their actions might move us away from building a society that is colour blind to one that is colour obsessed, and frustrate understanding rather than building it".

    Yes indeed. There have to be ways of addressing problems and erasing inequalities without becoming hyper obsessed about personal characteristics, to the point people are judged by them regardless of their views or actions, and people are expected to hold specific views because of those characteristics
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 3,643
    I see Trump’s rally was a flop.

    “Playing into his hands”
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60

    whunter said:

    Interesting article, well written and in normal times I would agree with everything that is said. But these are not normal times, there have been illegal riots which are seeking to overthrow the British state as we knew it and erase its history.

    The ideas behind these protests are not that different to any previous communist revolution, or any theocratic uprising. They are a direct challenge to liberal democracy.

    The choice is either that this is crushed and the woke are manouvred out of the universities, media and large capitalist enterprises or they win and get to impose their own vision of society on us. Both visions involve the end of the liberal democratic state as we knew it.

    It is clear to me that many people here, at least in public, are quite willing to make their accommodations with the woke. Right now that seems like the right call. There is no effective opposition to what they are doing.

    Under the old order I would have been regarded 'liberal left' but even I can see that this is turning in to a choice between living in Putins Russia or the Khymer Rouge.

    The option of living in a state where you can keep your head down and avoid trouble but stay secure, retain some sense of personal, private freedom is, when all things are considered, preferable over living in an intrusive revolutionary state which seeks to remake human nature.

    Both are awful choices. By contrast, the liberal Britain that we knew and has existed for most of our lifetimes was a utopia. But right now it feels like it is lost forever. It wont be saved by bowing to the mob.

    Sorry to depress you all on Sunday morning. Enjoy your freedom while you still have it.




    In contrast with the thoughtful and well-considered thread header, this is melodramatic twaddle. The incipient "communist" revolution you refer to has barely been noticed by most people, who do indeed just get on with their lives much as ever. Very few protesters wish to overthrow the state; probably the same tiny number on the far left and the far right. The vast majority of peaceful protesters just want a fairer society, simple as that.
    .
    I can only conclude that a lot of people are mistaken and naive: both those who are at the protests, and those who silently support them. These are very dangerous times.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 3,738
    Scott_xP said:

    Police in the US have a lot of immunity for their actions. If they believe there is a suspect in your house and the riddle it with gunfire, they are not liable to fix the damage (there have been cases of this). Also look up "Civil Asset Forfeiture" where the Police can simply stop you and take your money and then spend it on departmental things, office equipment or even subsidising their wage bill

    https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/asset-forfeiture-abuse

    I had a discussion recently with my gun owning US colleagues about liability.

    The laws obviously vary by state, but in general if you are going to shoot someone and limit liability, do it in your own home, and make sure they are dead was the advice.
    The State distinction is very important - very easy inadvertently to commit offences by carrying a gun across a State Border.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 3,599

    I see Trump’s rally was a flop.

    “Playing into his hands”

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