Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Starmer is ever to become PM he’s likely going to need some

1234568

Comments

  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    As a former cultist, I say get the Corbynites out of the SC, if they are willing to do it themselves then fine.

    They had their chance, we lost two elections in a row.

    Four
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911

    Do you see this as enhancing Starmer's position or weakening it?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    One party split, the other united?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    glw said:

    What exactly was the antisemitic theory that Rebecca Long-Bailey shared?

    : "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."
    I'm fairly certain that the Israeli secret services tactics are a bit more agressive than a knee on the neck.
    Aggressive cold calling is more their style.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,404

    Beyond belief.

    It's the Government's fault for giving out TOTALLY the wrong signals

    https://news.sky.com/story/major-incident-declared-in-bournemouth-as-thousands-of-people-flock-to-beaches-12014686

    Personal responsibility?
    Indeed so. We can only blame gov actions to a point.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    It depends on how the Corbynites decide to play it.Some might decide that just as the PLP sought to destabilise Corbyn, they can now return the favour by seeking to do the same to Starmer.I am sure that the thresholds of 22 MPs and 5% of CLPs would be achievable , should they wish to go down that road. Others in their ranks may be inclined to hold off until next year.
    I imagine that McCluskey et al still support RLB.

    No, 22 MPs is if there is a vacancy. To launch a challenge it would be 41.
    Thanks for that - you are correct.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Fired from the shadow cabinet. It’s not a precise analogy because she’s not an employee but the principle is the same.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    Could a politician sacked from cabinet or shadow cabinet ever conceivably bring an unfair dismissal case that would have a good chance of succeeding?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    OllyT said:


    Do you see this as enhancing Starmer's position or weakening it?
    At this point, I genuinely don't know.

    I love a bit of political drama - hence why I said 'It just gets better'

    Starmer could come out of it stronger - but I think he needs to follow through with a more comprehensive purge.

    But it could - if the Campaign Group get their act together (and that is a big if) -cause him a lot of trouble.

    I believe that governments need strong oppositions - and so I hope this is the start of Labour dealing properly with those driven by hate who have infected their party.

    But it is too early to say for certain whether this is the start of something more significant.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    JohnO said:

    Causes pain but

    Johnson and Jenrick
    Starmer and Long-Bailey

    As someone may have once said, "The difference is I lead my party, he follows his".

    You'll get called a lefty with posts like that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    One party split, the other united?
    One party united with Jenrick??

    If you think that is a good thing, I would normally suggest you get your eyes tested, but I would be worried you would go for a drive.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624

    Nigelb said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data
    R now about 0.87. Uncomfortably close to 1. Cases halve every five weeks.



    Doesn't R tend to 1 when the case numbers drop to very low levels?
    I think it becomes so noisy and dependent on the incidence of individual cases that the R number is no longer useful. I've stopped monitoring R for Richmond borough for that reason. I can't see a theoretical reason why it should tend to 1, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
    Considering it's a guesstimate at best, there is no real reason at all.

    The Covid Tracker research effort (which I still recommend signing up for) indicates things are perhaps edging upwards in the middle of the country:

    New daily COVID-19 cases in the UK have stopped falling this week:
    https://covid19.joinzoe.com/post/covid-incidence-stable
    The ONS survey has stopped showing decline as well.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/england25june2020

    It might just be that numbers are low and the error bars are bigger, though numbers seem to be flattening at a higher level than some other countries.

    Let's hope it's nothing worse.

    And let's be careful out there.
    Agree with need to keep being careful. However the ones change is 14 positives from 11 previously. I also think I read that they don't control for clusters in a house, so it's not impossible that one house is the difference... Very small numbers being extrapolated. I also thing local hot spots are now an issue e.g. Leicester. But yes - need to stay frosty...
    Various indication in other data that there was a "bump" in early June.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    tlg86 said:

    The thing is, the Left of the Labour Party probably have less to lose at this point compared with the Right of the Labour Party pre-2019 GE. The Left probably know that they're unlikely to regain the leadership of the party any time soon, so perhaps would quite happily leave the party. If they could take some unions with them, even better.

    justin124 said:

    Current members are listed on the Campaign Groups twitter account as:

    Diane Abbott MP
    Paula Barker MP
    Apsana Begum MP
    Olivia Blake MP
    Richard Burgon MP
    Ian Byrne MP
    Dan Carden MP
    Jeremy Corbyn MP
    Marsha de Cordova MP
    Mary Foy MP
    Margaret Greenwood MP
    Rachel Hopkins MP
    Imran Hussain MP
    Kim Johnson MP
    Ian Lavery MP
    Clive Lewis MP
    Rebecca Long-Bailey MP
    Rachael Maskell MP
    Andy McDonald MP
    John McDonnell MP
    Ian Mearns MP
    Nav Mishra MP
    Grahame Morris MP
    Charlotte Nichols MP
    Kate Osamor MP
    Kate Osborne MP
    Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP
    Lloyd Russell-Moyle MP
    Cat Smith MP
    Zarah Sultana MP
    Sam Tarry MP
    Jon Trickett MP
    Claudia Webbe MP
    Mick Whitley MP
    Nadia Whittome MP
    Beth Winter MP

    Let's see how many are willing to fight for Bailey

    Nearly 20% of the PLP.
    Would be comfortably the fourth largest bloc in the Commons, of course.
    and the best thing that could happen to the Labour Party in the long run
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Nigelb said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data
    R now about 0.87. Uncomfortably close to 1. Cases halve every five weeks.



    Doesn't R tend to 1 when the case numbers drop to very low levels?
    I think it becomes so noisy and dependent on the incidence of individual cases that the R number is no longer useful. I've stopped monitoring R for Richmond borough for that reason. I can't see a theoretical reason why it should tend to 1, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
    Considering it's a guesstimate at best, there is no real reason at all.

    The Covid Tracker research effort (which I still recommend signing up for) indicates things are perhaps edging upwards in the middle of the country:

    New daily COVID-19 cases in the UK have stopped falling this week:
    https://covid19.joinzoe.com/post/covid-incidence-stable
    Yes I signed up for the Covid Tracker many weeks ago and report every day. Luckily it is no symptoms every day. But a bit of a cough today and a slightly raised temperature (37.3C) but that's probably because I've been walking on a dusty towpath in blazing sun for over an hour.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    If Boris Johnson wants my vote he should send in the army to Bournemouth beach and use live ammo on them.

    Pour encourager les autres et al.

    Plus Johnson's hero Sir Winston Churchill wanted to use live ammo on the Welsh, so come on BJ show you're fit to lick the great man's boots.


    There's a much closer parallel with the great man than that:

    'We shall fight them .. on the beaches!' :lol:
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    Could a politician sacked from cabinet or shadow cabinet ever conceivably bring an unfair dismissal case that would have a good chance of succeeding?
    No. To bring an unfair dismissal claim you have to be an employee (legally that means someone working under a contract for service) and members of the cabinet and shadow cabinet are not employees. Instead they are officers, of the Crown in the case of the cabinet, and of the party in the case of the shadow cabinet.

    You can theoretically bring a discrimination claim if you are an officer but there are a number of Parliamentary exemptions.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    To be fair, I doubt if Starmer was heart broken at the prospect of being able to get rid of Long-Bailey.
    The test will come if and when/if it is someone who is a close and valued ally.
    Is Jenrick a close and valued ally?
    Clearly as he hasn't been fired for incompetently trying to fix a planning appeal and being caught trying to do so...
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    Two Metropolitan police officers have been arrested after a photograph was allegedly taken of the bodies of murdered sisters in a London park, the Guardian has learned.

    Nicole Smallman, 27, and Bibaa Henry, 46, were found stabbed to death in Fryent Country Park in north-west London this month.

    They were reported missing after a birthday gathering on Friday 5 June, and their bodies were found on 7 June. Several days later police confirmed they had been stabbed to death by a stranger who was likely to have been injured in the attack and is still at large.

    Smallman was a freelance photographer while Henry was a social worker and mother of one. They were daughters of Mina Smallman, the Church of England’s first female archdeacon from a black and minority ethnic background.

    A criminal inquiry is under way into an “inappropriate” photo taken at the murder scene, and allegedly sent to a group of people who included members of the public.

    It was reported to the Met police’s directorate of professional standards, which referred it to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC), which is investigating. Thewatchdog described the allegations as “sickening”.

    Two police officers were arrested on Monday on suspicion of misconduct in public office. Both had been deployed to guard the scene after the bodies were found, it is understood.

    The investigation will consider whether any criminal charges should be brought or any discipline offences should apply. The family of the two women have been told of the photograph and are said to have been shocked and distressed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/two-met-police-officers-arrested-over-photo-of-murdered-sisters

    My word
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
  • On topic, and no doubt point already made but I haven't time to read all the wisdom here tonight, but surely SKS needs an understanding with the SNP with their 50 plus seats more than he does with the LibDems with their half a minibus full.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    It depends on how the Corbynites decide to play it.Some might decide that just as the PLP sought to destabilise Corbyn, they can now return the favour by seeking to do the same to Starmer.I am sure that the thresholds of 22 MPs and 5% of CLPs would be achievable , should they wish to go down that road. Others in their ranks may be inclined to hold off until next year.
    I imagine that McCluskey et al still support RLB.

    Who is going to lay down their political life to support RLB?
    I am not a fan at all - but she was the standard bearer of the Corbynite wing in the Leadership Election. Will those who supported her have changed their minds?
    She isn't the sort of personality to inspire self-sacrifice. They might support her with a tweet or two and being generally outraged. But they won't take action

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    It depends on how the Corbynites decide to play it.Some might decide that just as the PLP sought to destabilise Corbyn, they can now return the favour by seeking to do the same to Starmer.I am sure that the thresholds of 22 MPs and 5% of CLPs would be achievable , should they wish to go down that road. Others in their ranks may be inclined to hold off until next year.
    I imagine that McCluskey et al still support RLB.

    Who is going to lay down their political life to support RLB?
    I am not a fan at all - but she was the standard bearer of the Corbynite wing in the Leadership Election. Will those who supported her have changed their minds?
    She isn't the sort of personality to inspire self-sacrifice. They might support her with a tweet or two and being generally outraged. But they won't take action
    Wonderful to see the odious Long bailey sacked. The hard left will be dealt

    with by KS that is clear
    Is Nick Palmer safe ?
    Nick Palmer is a chameleon. A party yesman to the party leader. When Blair was in charge he was a Blairite, when Brown was in charge he was a Brownite, when Corbyn was in charge he was a Corbynista. He's safe.
    It's a little easier to stick rigidly at all times to dozens of written-in-stone principles when blitzing away on the internet than it is when you are an MP for one of the main parties. So "loyalist" would imo be better here than "chameleon".
    Which is one of the fundamental problems with our party system. The only people the MPs should be 'loyal' to are their electorate. In the end parties are a corruption of the system which damages democracy
    I get the point but how could it work in practice without parties?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    One party split, the other united?
    One party united with Jenrick??

    If you think that is a good thing, I would normally suggest you get your eyes tested, but I would be worried you would go for a drive.
    My eyesight is terrible, no need for a test!

    I think if this were Cameron having trouble with Eurosceptics circa 2011/2/3 and having to fire them etc whilst the other Eurosceptics went crazy you'd have said it was a bad sign for the Tories being split
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Two thoughts. Firstly when elected Starmer emphasised that anti Semitism was no longer going to be tolerated. Given her record she must have been aware she would be in his sights for this.

    Secondly, education is a crisis area for the government both right now and over the coming months. The government is very vulnerable. Would you really want someone as stupid as RLB as your attack dog in this area?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    It depends on how the Corbynites decide to play it.Some might decide that just as the PLP sought to destabilise Corbyn, they can now return the favour by seeking to do the same to Starmer.I am sure that the thresholds of 22 MPs and 5% of CLPs would be achievable , should they wish to go down that road. Others in their ranks may be inclined to hold off until next year.
    I imagine that McCluskey et al still support RLB.

    Who is going to lay down their political life to support RLB?
    I am not a fan at all - but she was the standard bearer of the Corbynite wing in the Leadership Election. Will those who supported her have changed their minds?
    She isn't the sort of personality to inspire self-sacrifice. They might support her with a tweet or two and being generally outraged. But they won't take action

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    It depends on how the Corbynites decide to play it.Some might decide that just as the PLP sought to destabilise Corbyn, they can now return the favour by seeking to do the same to Starmer.I am sure that the thresholds of 22 MPs and 5% of CLPs would be achievable , should they wish to go down that road. Others in their ranks may be inclined to hold off until next year.
    I imagine that McCluskey et al still support RLB.

    Who is going to lay down their political life to support RLB?
    I am not a fan at all - but she was the standard bearer of the Corbynite wing in the Leadership Election. Will those who supported her have changed their minds?
    She isn't the sort of personality to inspire self-sacrifice. They might support her with a tweet or two and being generally outraged. But they won't take action
    Wonderful to see the odious Long bailey sacked. The hard left will be dealt

    with by KS that is clear
    Is Nick Palmer safe ?
    Nick Palmer is a chameleon. A party yesman to the party leader. When Blair was in charge he was a Blairite, when Brown was in charge he was a Brownite, when Corbyn was in charge he was a Corbynista. He's safe.
    It's a little easier to stick rigidly at all times to dozens of written-in-stone principles when blitzing away on the internet than it is when you are an MP for one of the main parties. So "loyalist" would imo be better here than "chameleon".
    Which is one of the fundamental problems with our party system. The only people the MPs should be 'loyal' to are their electorate. In the end parties are a corruption of the system which damages democracy
    I get the point but how could it work in practice without parties?
    A jury service style system with 10-30% appointed by lot would help.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,404
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    It depends on how the Corbynites decide to play it.Some might decide that just as the PLP sought to destabilise Corbyn, they can now return the favour by seeking to do the same to Starmer.I am sure that the thresholds of 22 MPs and 5% of CLPs would be achievable , should they wish to go down that road. Others in their ranks may be inclined to hold off until next year.
    I imagine that McCluskey et al still support RLB.

    Who is going to lay down their political life to support RLB?
    I am not a fan at all - but she was the standard bearer of the Corbynite wing in the Leadership Election. Will those who supported her have changed their minds?
    She isn't the sort of personality to inspire self-sacrifice. They might support her with a tweet or two and being generally outraged. But they won't take action

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    It depends on how the Corbynites decide to play it.Some might decide that just as the PLP sought to destabilise Corbyn, they can now return the favour by seeking to do the same to Starmer.I am sure that the thresholds of 22 MPs and 5% of CLPs would be achievable , should they wish to go down that road. Others in their ranks may be inclined to hold off until next year.
    I imagine that McCluskey et al still support RLB.

    Who is going to lay down their political life to support RLB?
    I am not a fan at all - but she was the standard bearer of the Corbynite wing in the Leadership Election. Will those who supported her have changed their minds?
    She isn't the sort of personality to inspire self-sacrifice. They might support her with a tweet or two and being generally outraged. But they won't take action
    Wonderful to see the odious Long bailey sacked. The hard left will be dealt

    with by KS that is clear
    Is Nick Palmer safe ?
    Nick Palmer is a chameleon. A party yesman to the party leader. When Blair was in charge he was a Blairite, when Brown was in charge he was a Brownite, when Corbyn was in charge he was a Corbynista. He's safe.
    It's a little easier to stick rigidly at all times to dozens of written-in-stone principles when blitzing away on the internet than it is when you are an MP for one of the main parties. So "loyalist" would imo be better here than "chameleon".
    Which is one of the fundamental problems with our party system. The only people the MPs should be 'loyal' to are their electorate. In the end parties are a corruption of the system which damages democracy
    I get the point but how could it work in practice without parties?
    Yes. I think the balance of loyalty to party machinery and faction is too high, and I support systems to make it easier to elect multiple parties, but I think we are too quick to dismiss the positives of the development of poltiical parties in the first place, which do provide some form of shared vision (albeit a shifting, inconsistent one) for development of policies.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,282
    I don't blame people for wanting to go the beach on a day like this.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    edited June 2020

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    The contrast is that both appointed n’er do wells but only Keir had the bottle to correct the situation.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Floater said:
    Says all you need to know about too many of our universities.

    I pity those who have to be taught by her. They ought to be able to refuse to have her as their tutor - just as she refuses to tutor others.
  • Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    Johnson puts corrupt officials in his cabinet, so by implication you support such a process
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    On topic, and no doubt point already made but I haven't time to read all the wisdom here tonight, but surely SKS needs an understanding with the SNP with their 50 plus seats more than he does with the LibDems with their half a minibus full.

    That's all gonnae change. SKS is going to get back former Lab voters from the SNP and keep the support of 43% of current SLab voters who support indy. Cunning plan to follow.

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1276167676172394498?s=20
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,282
    Lincoln County, Oregon says that white people have to wear facemasks but minorities don't.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/oregon-county-people-of-color-mask-trnd/index.html
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    US Republican nominee for WH2020 as result of the convention, last matched prices:

    Trump 1.09
    Pence 26
    Haley 80
    Romney 200
    Ryan 500
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    DougSeal said:

    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    Technically though hysterical, on this occasion he is partially right though, isn’t he? It is sedition.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    But white supremicists taking over a State capitol while carrying semi automatics wasn’t?

  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    DougSeal said:
    Smart win-win tweet by Rob Halfon. Reminding Tory colleagues about complacency whilst stirring the Labour pot. Good politics.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    Could a politician sacked from cabinet or shadow cabinet ever conceivably bring an unfair dismissal case that would have a good chance of succeeding?
    No. To bring an unfair dismissal claim you have to be an employee (legally that means someone working under a contract for service) and members of the cabinet and shadow cabinet are not employees. Instead they are officers, of the Crown in the case of the cabinet, and of the party in the case of the shadow cabinet.

    You can theoretically bring a discrimination claim if you are an officer but there are a number of Parliamentary exemptions.
    Thanks. Makes sense.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,404
    DavidL said:

    But white supremicists taking over a State capitol while carrying semi automatics wasn’t?

    Just playful high spirits.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    Technically though hysterical, on this occasion he is partially right though, isn’t he? It is sedition.

    Brandenburg v. Ohio
    - seditious speech—including speech that constitutes an incitement to violence—is protected by the First Amendment as long as it does not indicate an "imminent" threat.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    Johnson puts corrupt officials in his cabinet, so by implication you support such a process
    One slight correction The official wasn't corrupt when he was appointed to the cabinet, the incident occurred after he joined the cabinet.

    He also didn't profit directly from the deal (although as with all former Cabinet Ministers I'mm sure he will profit from it afterwards) but he did do an immediate favour for a party donor when the donor asked him to do so.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Surrey said:

    US Republican nominee for WH2020 as result of the convention, last matched prices:

    Trump 1.09
    Pence 26
    Haley 80
    Romney 200
    Ryan 500

    The fact people think there is a 10% chance that Trump won't be the nominee is surprising.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    DavidL said:

    But white supremicists taking over a State capitol while carrying semi automatics wasn’t?

    Why doesn't Trump just say that in Black Lives Matter he thinks black people have a very poor representative for their cause?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Trump just keeps tweeting - LAW AND ORDER !!
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    Trump just keeps tweeting - LAW AND ORDER !!

    Don;t underestimate the tactic of frightening suburban white America.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    But white supremicists taking over a State capitol while carrying semi automatics wasn’t?


    Why doesn't Trump just say that in Black Lives Matter he thinks black people have a very poor representative for their cause?
    It’s maybe a bit subtle for a tweet.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    One party split, the other united?
    One party united with Jenrick??

    If you think that is a good thing, I would normally suggest you get your eyes tested, but I would be worried you would go for a drive.
    My eyesight is terrible, no need for a test!

    I think if this were Cameron having trouble with Eurosceptics circa 2011/2/3 and having to fire them etc whilst the other Eurosceptics went crazy you'd have said it was a bad sign for the Tories being split
    Ffs everything is terrible for Starmer in your opinion.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    eek said:

    Surrey said:

    US Republican nominee for WH2020 as result of the convention, last matched prices:

    Trump 1.09
    Pence 26
    Haley 80
    Romney 200
    Ryan 500

    The fact people think there is a 10% chance that Trump won't be the nominee is surprising.
    Yes, and it's simply wrong at this point in time.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    kinabalu said:

    Trump just keeps tweeting - LAW AND ORDER !!

    Don;t underestimate the tactic of frightening suburban white America.
    Oh, he's frightening them all right, but not in the way I think he hopes.

    https://twitter.com/OpinionToday/status/1276150402170355718
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    DougSeal said:


    Oh, he's frightening them all right, but not in the way I think he hopes.

    https://twitter.com/OpinionToday/status/1276150402170355718

    70% of those casting ballots are White and in 2016 Trump won that group 55-37. If Biden has closed that gap substantially (a poll I saw the other day had an 8-point for Trump 50-42 so a 5% swing among a key voting bloc), the swing in EV votes would be dramatic.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Major incident declared in Bournemouth, suffering hugely from a massive influx of visitors and with incidents of violence.

    Interesting. Looking at traffic on Google Maps, the road along the coast from Worthing to Brighton looks jammed.
    Gridlock around the town, more parking tickets issued than on any single day previously, refuse collectors emptying beachside bins need security guards after previous abuse and assaults. It sounds like chaos down there,
    My family have gone to Littlehampton today - that tends to be a bit better than the bigger resorts - but I'll report back if there was any trouble there.
    The local paper is full of stories:

    https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/

    - widespread problems of illegal parking, excessive waste, anti-social behaviour, gridlock on roads and prohibited overnight camping

    - 558 parking enforcement fines – the highest on record; many reports of cars parking and causing an obstruction

    - Roads in and out of the area were heavily congested into the early hours

    - widespread abuse and intimidation of crews attempting to empty overflowing bins on the seafront. In the stretch between just the piers, eight tonnes of waste was collected yesterday on the second collection run of the day. This morning, a further 33 tons of waste was removed

    - a number of incidents reported which involved excessive alcohol and fights. Multiple fights on the beach left one man with cuts to his face and another with injuries after he was headbutted. A woman was attacked on an approach road to the beach





    How many of these people are furloughed?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Splitting hairs. If you want me to clarify when I said "fired" I meant fired from her office of shadow education secretary. Which is still a dismissal. WIthdrawal of the whip is a separate issue.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,404
    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Major incident declared in Bournemouth, suffering hugely from a massive influx of visitors and with incidents of violence.

    Interesting. Looking at traffic on Google Maps, the road along the coast from Worthing to Brighton looks jammed.
    Gridlock around the town, more parking tickets issued than on any single day previously, refuse collectors emptying beachside bins need security guards after previous abuse and assaults. It sounds like chaos down there,
    My family have gone to Littlehampton today - that tends to be a bit better than the bigger resorts - but I'll report back if there was any trouble there.
    The local paper is full of stories:

    https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/

    - widespread problems of illegal parking, excessive waste, anti-social behaviour, gridlock on roads and prohibited overnight camping

    - 558 parking enforcement fines – the highest on record; many reports of cars parking and causing an obstruction

    - Roads in and out of the area were heavily congested into the early hours

    - widespread abuse and intimidation of crews attempting to empty overflowing bins on the seafront. In the stretch between just the piers, eight tonnes of waste was collected yesterday on the second collection run of the day. This morning, a further 33 tons of waste was removed

    - a number of incidents reported which involved excessive alcohol and fights. Multiple fights on the beach left one man with cuts to his face and another with injuries after he was headbutted. A woman was attacked on an approach road to the beach


    Why would anyone abuse people removing rubbish?


  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    It is deliciously ironic that RBL and her hard left mates are ruthlessly intolerant of any tweet that even remotely offends their sense of grievance.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Surely leaving the shadow cabinet is enough for a re -tweet.Which stated an accusation against the Israel state.
    What you suggests is overkill, especially when you condone undue influence in a major planning decision and backing an advisor who broke his own governments rules.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,404

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Seems a bit over the top.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    humbugger said:

    It is deliciously ironic that RBL and her hard left mates are ruthlessly intolerant of any tweet that even remotely offends their sense of grievance.

    Oh, but cancel culture was never meant to apply to them, just the bad people...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,837
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    But white supremicists taking over a State capitol while carrying semi automatics wasn’t?


    Why doesn't Trump just say that in Black Lives Matter he thinks black people have a very poor representative for their cause?
    It’s maybe a bit subtle for a tweet.
    It's a bit subtle for Trump too.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Splitting hairs. If you want me to clarify when I said "fired" I meant fired from her office of shadow education secretary. Which is still a dismissal. WIthdrawal of the whip is a separate issue.
    I know what you mean. It's not a real dismissal. Not like organisations sacking people for causing significant harm to the organisation.

    If a company sacks an employee for bringing the company into disrepute that doesn't really simply mean keeping them on at full salary but in a slightly lower profile role.

    Yesterday RLB was a Labour MP. Today she still is. Same salary as she had yesterday. Same employer. Same organisation.

    You specifically said that you fired someone for a Tweet. After you fired them did they still work for you? Did they still work in your organisation? Were they still claiming full salary and able to portray themselves still as a member of your organisation?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Just reading that the City of Seattle is getting overwhelmed with lawsuits by numerous businesses and residents unlucky enough to live in and around the CHOP.

    Looks like some who support defunding the police might end up getting defunded themselves.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited June 2020
    The Bournemouth beach goers must be followers of the Sikora/Gupta school of thought.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Major incident declared in Bournemouth, suffering hugely from a massive influx of visitors and with incidents of violence.

    Interesting. Looking at traffic on Google Maps, the road along the coast from Worthing to Brighton looks jammed.
    Gridlock around the town, more parking tickets issued than on any single day previously, refuse collectors emptying beachside bins need security guards after previous abuse and assaults. It sounds like chaos down there,
    My family have gone to Littlehampton today - that tends to be a bit better than the bigger resorts - but I'll report back if there was any trouble there.
    The local paper is full of stories:

    https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/

    - widespread problems of illegal parking, excessive waste, anti-social behaviour, gridlock on roads and prohibited overnight camping

    - 558 parking enforcement fines – the highest on record; many reports of cars parking and causing an obstruction

    - Roads in and out of the area were heavily congested into the early hours

    - widespread abuse and intimidation of crews attempting to empty overflowing bins on the seafront. In the stretch between just the piers, eight tonnes of waste was collected yesterday on the second collection run of the day. This morning, a further 33 tons of waste was removed

    - a number of incidents reported which involved excessive alcohol and fights. Multiple fights on the beach left one man with cuts to his face and another with injuries after he was headbutted. A woman was attacked on an approach road to the beach


    Why would anyone abuse people removing rubbish?


    Are you talking about Starmer?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    edited June 2020
    Very good fall in number in hospital.

    4,186 vs 4,543 yesterday.

    All usual slides here if anyone wants them:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/slides-and-datasets-to-accompany-coronavirus-press-conferences
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Pulpstar said:

    The Bournemouth beach goers must be followers of the Sikora/Gupta school of thought.
    and this IS about the health of the nation, and not just about you doing what I say for the sake of it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    edited June 2020
    Thought this might be of interest - ratio of positive tests to numbers of tests carried out....

    Black line is 7 day trend line

    image
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    Pulpstar said:

    The Bournemouth beach goers must be followers of the Sikora/Gupta school of thought.
    Fortunately we have a world beating track and tracing app.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745


    I know what you mean. It's not a real dismissal. Not like organisations sacking people for causing significant harm to the organisation.

    If a company sacks an employee for bringing the company into disrepute that doesn't really simply mean keeping them on at full salary but in a slightly lower profile role.

    Yesterday RLB was a Labour MP. Today she still is. Same salary as she had yesterday. Same employer. Same organisation.

    You specifically said that you fired someone for a Tweet. After you fired them did they still work for you? Did they still work in your organisation? Were they still claiming full salary and able to portray themselves still as a member of your organisation?

    I don't believe Starmer has the power to expel RLB from the Labour Party - I might be wrong. He could have withdrawn the whip but presumably because all she did was re-tweet the article rather than author it, he's decided removing her from the SC is adequate at this time.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    It hardly warrants that. Heath did not do that to Powell in 1968 when the latter delivered his 'rivers of blood' speech.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Splitting hairs. If you want me to clarify when I said "fired" I meant fired from her office of shadow education secretary. Which is still a dismissal. WIthdrawal of the whip is a separate issue.
    I know what you mean. It's not a real dismissal. Not like organisations sacking people for causing significant harm to the organisation.

    If a company sacks an employee for bringing the company into disrepute that doesn't really simply mean keeping them on at full salary but in a slightly lower profile role.

    Yesterday RLB was a Labour MP. Today she still is. Same salary as she had yesterday. Same employer. Same organisation.

    You specifically said that you fired someone for a Tweet. After you fired them did they still work for you? Did they still work in your organisation? Were they still claiming full salary and able to portray themselves still as a member of your organisation?
    If Starmer opposes antisemitism then why would he have been willing to serve in a Corbyn government with endemic antisemitism ?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    MikeL said:

    Very good fall in number in hospital.

    4,186 vs 4,543 yesterday.

    All usual slides here if anyone wants them:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/slides-and-datasets-to-accompany-coronavirus-press-conferences

    Well, yes but at least 149 further deaths recorded and there's little doubt in my mind the true death toll is well above 60,000.

    Slight rise in the number of new cases as well - I've long been of the view we needed two weeks of deaths >100 and new cases >1000 before we substantially re-opened the economy but other considerations have taken precedence.

    As for Bournemouth, so many have said for so long outdoor transmission is rare and the young are mostly free of risk but it's also a sign furlough has perhaps disproportionately affected or afflicted the young.

    The question is whether two months of "business" will save these jobs - maybe, maybe not.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

    He has referred to 'piccanninies' and 'letter boxes'.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

    He has referred to 'piccanninies' and 'letter boxes'.
    Sorry, I thought you were being serious.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,089

    humbugger said:

    It is deliciously ironic that RBL and her hard left mates are ruthlessly intolerant of any tweet that even remotely offends their sense of grievance.

    Oh, but cancel culture was never meant to apply to them, just the bad people...
    It's as if there's a meaningful middle ground in the Culture Wars, and you don't have to choose between woke-leftism and populist-nationalism.

    Whodathunkit?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Surely leaving the shadow cabinet is enough for a re -tweet.Which stated an accusation against the Israel state.
    What you suggests is overkill, especially when you condone undue influence in a major planning decision and backing an advisor who broke his own governments rules.
    Perhaps but I've never been impressed with the revolving door of politics where people who abuse power can be "fired" but remain an MP, keep the whip, keep their salary and be re-elected as the same parties MP at the next election.

    If you wish to fire someone sack them from your organisation. That means removing the whip. Otherwise at worst they've been demoted.

    Saying "no I'm not sacking this person" is more intellectually honest than saying "I've sacked her" when you haven't.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

    He has referred to 'piccanninies' and 'letter boxes'.
    Sorry, I thought you were being serious.
    You don't think that referring to other people as 'piccanninies' is remotely racist? Do you feel the same about 'Wogs'?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

    He has referred to 'piccanninies' and 'letter boxes'.
    Picanninies is inappropriate but it's clear from context he was attacking others racism. Like the language in the Germans Faulty Towers episode. Not appropriate today but the meaning at the time was clear.

    Letterboxes is entirely appropriate language and has nothing to do with race.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    DavidL said:

    But white supremicists taking over a State capitol while carrying semi automatics wasn’t?

    Why doesn't Trump just say that in Black Lives Matter he thinks black people have a very poor representative for their cause?
    Because he’s an idiot.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Can @Scrapheap_as_was update us on Lord Falconer?

    Rumours circling Westminster...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,089
    edited June 2020
    stodge said:

    MikeL said:

    Very good fall in number in hospital.

    4,186 vs 4,543 yesterday.

    All usual slides here if anyone wants them:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/slides-and-datasets-to-accompany-coronavirus-press-conferences

    Well, yes but at least 149 further deaths recorded and there's little doubt in my mind the true death toll is well above 60,000.

    Slight rise in the number of new cases as well - I've long been of the view we needed two weeks of deaths >100 and new cases >1000 before we substantially re-opened the economy but other considerations have taken precedence.

    As for Bournemouth, so many have said for so long outdoor transmission is rare and the young are mostly free of risk but it's also a sign furlough has perhaps disproportionately affected or afflicted the young.

    The question is whether two months of "business" will save these jobs - maybe, maybe not.
    Sweden shows that you don't need to do that much to hold the virus at a constant level... but I wish the UK had chosen a lower constant level than this. 100 / day = 35 k / year. If this really is as good as it gets, it shows the weakness of the country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

    He has referred to 'piccanninies' and 'letter boxes'.
    Picanninies is inappropriate but it's clear from context he was attacking others racism. Like the language in the Germans Faulty Towers episode. Not appropriate today but the meaning at the time was clear.

    Letterboxes is entirely appropriate language and has nothing to do with race.
    What about the Papua New Guinea cannibalism remark?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911

    kinabalu said:

    Trump just keeps tweeting - LAW AND ORDER !!

    Don;t underestimate the tactic of frightening suburban white America.
    Not having any effect in the recent polls. Long way to go but right now that tactic isn't working.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    stodge said:


    I know what you mean. It's not a real dismissal. Not like organisations sacking people for causing significant harm to the organisation.

    If a company sacks an employee for bringing the company into disrepute that doesn't really simply mean keeping them on at full salary but in a slightly lower profile role.

    Yesterday RLB was a Labour MP. Today she still is. Same salary as she had yesterday. Same employer. Same organisation.

    You specifically said that you fired someone for a Tweet. After you fired them did they still work for you? Did they still work in your organisation? Were they still claiming full salary and able to portray themselves still as a member of your organisation?

    I don't believe Starmer has the power to expel RLB from the Labour Party - I might be wrong. He could have withdrawn the whip but presumably because all she did was re-tweet the article rather than author it, he's decided removing her from the SC is adequate at this time.
    Seems the correct response to me.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745


    If Starmer opposes antisemitism then why would he have been willing to serve in a Corbyn government with endemic antisemitism ?

    It's not the same but Conservatives opposed to the EU were quite happy to support their party when it was still supportive of EU membership.

    Tony Blair was elected MP in 1983 on a manifesto which opposed EEC membership and backed unilateral nuclear disarmament.

    That's the thing about being a member of a political party - you can forget consistency and it's quite possible to support the bulk of the policies and disagree on one or to key ones.

    I suppose it's whether you think parties should reflect public opinion and be led by it or stand on key principles and try to get the public to come to them.

    Has Labour always been an anti-semitic party or did it become one under Corbyn? Starmer won the leadership election fair and square and he has to put his vision of the Labour party forward and eventually to the electorate.

    One aspect of that is clearly a desire to rid the party of anti-semitism and that is to be welcomed - he has a lot more to do in many other areas to convince people he is ready to lead a Labour Government.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    edited June 2020

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Splitting hairs. If you want me to clarify when I said "fired" I meant fired from her office of shadow education secretary. Which is still a dismissal. WIthdrawal of the whip is a separate issue.
    I know what you mean. It's not a real dismissal. Not like organisations sacking people for causing significant harm to the organisation.

    If a company sacks an employee for bringing the company into disrepute that doesn't really simply mean keeping them on at full salary but in a slightly lower profile role.

    Yesterday RLB was a Labour MP. Today she still is. Same salary as she had yesterday. Same employer. Same organisation.

    You specifically said that you fired someone for a Tweet. After you fired them did they still work for you? Did they still work in your organisation? Were they still claiming full salary and able to portray themselves still as a member of your organisation?
    The Labour Party doesn’t pay her salary. She gets that just for being an MP. Starmer can’t kick her out of the Commons even if he withdrew the whip.

    You are having a pointless argument about the semantics of the word “fired” with the wrong person. You clearly think she should have had the whip withdrawn as well as being fired from the shadow cabinet. That’s your prerogative. I have no dog in the fight as I am not a member nor a supporter of the Labour Party. He could have “fired” her in a very literal sense into the sun or out of a cannon for all I care.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Highly likely to be yet another silent hound. We have been assured, time after time, that young people frolicking in the sunshine will lead us into disaster, yet so far it’s made no difference.

    If Whitty wanted to make a real difference he could suggest a ban on cheap processed meat?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

    He has referred to 'piccanninies' and 'letter boxes'.
    Sorry, I thought you were being serious.
    You don't think that referring to other people as 'piccanninies' is remotely racist? Do you feel the same about 'Wogs'?
    Getting back to the central point

    "A government infected by racism"

    Evidence please
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Far be it for me to agree with Owen Jones, or go into bat for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but I’m inclined to agree.

    I can only assume he was looking for an excuse to get rid of her.
    She wasn’t fired for retweeting the article per se. She was fired because of the damage that keeping her would cause to the Labour Party. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason for firing anyone. If one of my employees retweeted something that might cause my organisation significant harm then dismissal would be an option. I fired someone for a twitter post myself once and have advised on several FB related dismissals that resulted in damage to an employer’s reputation.
    She's not been fired like that. She's still a Labour MP.
    Elected. You're big on that sort of thing aren't you.
    If Starmer truly wanted to fire her he could withdraw the whip.
    Splitting hairs. If you want me to clarify when I said "fired" I meant fired from her office of shadow education secretary. Which is still a dismissal. WIthdrawal of the whip is a separate issue.
    I know what you mean. It's not a real dismissal. Not like organisations sacking people for causing significant harm to the organisation.

    If a company sacks an employee for bringing the company into disrepute that doesn't really simply mean keeping them on at full salary but in a slightly lower profile role.

    Yesterday RLB was a Labour MP. Today she still is. Same salary as she had yesterday. Same employer. Same organisation.

    You specifically said that you fired someone for a Tweet. After you fired them did they still work for you? Did they still work in your organisation? Were they still claiming full salary and able to portray themselves still as a member of your organisation?
    The Labour Party doesn’t pay her salary. She gets that just for being an MP. Starmer can’t kick her out of the Commons even if he withdrew the whip.

    You are having a pointless argument about the semantics of the word “fired” with the wrong person. You clearly think she should have had the whip withdrawn as well as being fired from the shadow cabinet. That’s your prerogative. I have no dog in the fight as I am not a member nor a supporter of the Labour Party. He could have “fired” her in a very literal sense into the sun or out of a cannon for all I care.
    I have to say, I think that would be slightly excessive.

    But you never know. Has @Morris_Dancer had any requests from Labour for a loan of his cannon?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    stodge said:

    MikeL said:

    Very good fall in number in hospital.

    4,186 vs 4,543 yesterday.

    All usual slides here if anyone wants them:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/slides-and-datasets-to-accompany-coronavirus-press-conferences

    Well, yes but at least 149 further deaths recorded and there's little doubt in my mind the true death toll is well above 60,000.

    Slight rise in the number of new cases as well - I've long been of the view we needed two weeks of deaths >100 and new cases >1000 before we substantially re-opened the economy but other considerations have taken precedence.

    As for Bournemouth, so many have said for so long outdoor transmission is rare and the young are mostly free of risk but it's also a sign furlough has perhaps disproportionately affected or afflicted the young.

    The question is whether two months of "business" will save these jobs - maybe, maybe not.
    I'm curious as to what proportion of the country are:

    1) Immediately joining the rush for shops / beaches / takeaways / pubs

    2) Cowering in their own homes

    3) Going along pretty much as normal
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump just keeps tweeting - LAW AND ORDER !!

    Don;t underestimate the tactic of frightening suburban white America.
    Oh, he's frightening them all right, but not in the way I think he hopes.

    https://twitter.com/OpinionToday/status/1276150402170355718
    Playing into his hands
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    justin124 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cummings stays
    Jenrick stays
    Long-Bailey goes

    Quite a contrast.

    The contrast being that Starmer put fans of antisemitic conspiracy theories in his Shadow Cabinet, and Boris didn't?
    But he provides a good example himself of a Government infected by racism.
    Examples?

    He has referred to 'piccanninies' and 'letter boxes'.
    Sorry, I thought you were being serious.
    You don't think that referring to other people as 'piccanninies' is remotely racist? Do you feel the same about 'Wogs'?
    Getting back to the central point

    "A government infected by racism"

    Evidence please
    The fact that that the PM has made such statements is surely evidence enough of a government infected by racism.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    Carnyx said:



    You could add the Northern Isles (Orkney and Shetland) to that analysis.

    And adopting the Euro is not necessary - merely a pious assumption deferred to some shadowy future (cf. Sweden IIRC)

    I doubt the EU would let us get away with that, especially given the size of the UK economy and the importance of London's giant financial markets.
This discussion has been closed.