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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    I see Starmer has sealed the fate of the regional office......


  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    THAT is some bloody good news in an otherwise very depressing state-of-affairs
    I posted this a few days back
    Pulpstar said:


    Another thing
    Doctors now know to be much more cautious before putting people on a mechanical ventilator and also for people to lie on their stomach. There's the remdisivir advance and probably a number of other small ones in the treatment too.
    So the death rate from the virus should have dropped for equal prevalence compared to prior.

    The collorary is that any calculation of "R" from deaths will skew low.
    If the death rate on hospitalisation is a quarter of what it was then it would skew VERY low depending on how long that improvement is spread over.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    MrEd said:

    Hopefully, none are serious injuries.

    However, how long before we hear the phrase "mental issues" being mentioned?
    5 4 3 2 1 - incoming - Germany have raised that to an art form - but they are getting plenty of practice
    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Let's say I am an islamic fundamentalist but with a balanced mind. Yes, I want to overthrow the west and establish a caliphate and push Israel into the sea. But then perhaps I also want to play for Arsenal and get a good job in sales and I just get on with my life as normal while subordinating my less likely aspirations because, frankly, I don't think it will happen and it would be immoral to try to bring it about through violence.

    An islamic fundamentalist who has mental health problems, meanwhile, may believe that attacking people as they are coming out of Morrisons is a sure fire way to achieve that caliphate.

    And of course finally let's suppose I am not an islamic fundamentalist at all and have mental health problems. Perhaps I think it would be very interesting to see what happens if I throw a child off the balcony of the Tate Modern.

    It's not always an either/or.
    The point being with the establishment is they push the mental health aspect and try to ignore the ideology
    Yes I understand that it happens. And it is often a necessary but not sufficient factor. But by the same token, many seek to ignore the mental health elements completely as well.
    I am sure the Islamic fundamentalists are more than happy to exploit peoples mental health weaknesses.

    What we should be asking is who radicalises them and how.

    No curiosity on the part of our media at all.......
    But that would lead to asking about "clerics" in prisons, where they come from and who funds them.

    All BadThink questions.
    Not just in prisons.

    No one is disputing we have an issue with radicalisation in the UK and yes prisons and elsewhere can be problematic (Belmarsh, it was described to me some time ago, was in essence just a madrassa).

    But there is no quick fire solution. You can't lock up an ideology. You have to fight a culture war. And win.
    We could properly identify those spreading this poison and put them into permanent solitary isolation.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    glw said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course the irony is Trump opposed the Iraq War and Biden backed it, ultra hawks like Bolton have drifted away from Trump

    Trump did not oppose the Iraq war. A big clue to that fact should be the fact that Trump says he opposed the Iraq war, and mostly he lies.

    HYUFD is one of the few posters here who repeats Trump's lies as if they are true.
    https://www.factcheck.org/2016/02/donald-trump-and-the-iraq-war/
    March 2003 Trump called the Iraq War 'depressing.' Biden voted for the Iraq War as a Senator.

    Middle Eastern or South Asian territories invaded or bombed by previous US Presidents, Bush Afghanistan and Iraq, Obama Libya and Syria.

    Trump has not invaded any Middle Eastern nations as president, nor has he sent in troops or bombers to nations the US was not already in.

    Bar Sanders he was the least hawkish candidate in reality this year.

    Biden would probably be the most hawkish Democratic president since Johnson
    Not true. Contrary to what he says Trump has escalated drone strikes and he’s not even reporting the numbers anymore - Trump revokes Obama rule on reporting drone strike deaths http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47480207
    Obama started military actions in 2 other nations, Syria and Libya, than he was left with and used plenty of drones. Publishing the civilians your drones blew up does not change the fact you blew them up.

    New military conflicts started by Trump 0
    Trump came very close to starting a war with Iran, explicitly saying that any casualties from an Iranian response to the assassination of Soleimani would be met be an overwhelming retaliation. Iran fired missiles at bases in Iraq, and service people were injured, but the DOD sat on that fact for a few days to give Trump time to cool down. In the end 29 Purple Hearts were awarded for injuries related to that Iranian attack. That the DOD has to do such things to stop a lunatic like Trump sparking a war is concerning.
    He didn't though, unlike his predecessors.

    The second part in bold is completely made up. There is no suggestion Trump wasn't told anything the Pentagon knew.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    MrEd said:

    Hopefully, none are serious injuries.

    However, how long before we hear the phrase "mental issues" being mentioned?
    5 4 3 2 1 - incoming - Germany have raised that to an art form - but they are getting plenty of practice
    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Let's say I am an islamic fundamentalist but with a balanced mind. Yes, I want to overthrow the west and establish a caliphate and push Israel into the sea. But then perhaps I also want to play for Arsenal and get a good job in sales and I just get on with my life as normal while subordinating my less likely aspirations because, frankly, I don't think it will happen and it would be immoral to try to bring it about through violence.

    An islamic fundamentalist who has mental health problems, meanwhile, may believe that attacking people as they are coming out of Morrisons is a sure fire way to achieve that caliphate.

    And of course finally let's suppose I am not an islamic fundamentalist at all and have mental health problems. Perhaps I think it would be very interesting to see what happens if I throw a child off the balcony of the Tate Modern.

    It's not always an either/or.
    The point being with the establishment is they push the mental health aspect and try to ignore the ideology
    Yes I understand that it happens. And it is often a necessary but not sufficient factor. But by the same token, many seek to ignore the mental health elements completely as well.
    I am sure the Islamic fundamentalists are more than happy to exploit peoples mental health weaknesses.

    What we should be asking is who radicalises them and how.

    No curiosity on the part of our media at all.......
    But that would lead to asking about "clerics" in prisons, where they come from and who funds them.

    All BadThink questions.
    Not just in prisons.

    No one is disputing we have an issue with radicalisation in the UK and yes prisons and elsewhere can be problematic (Belmarsh, it was described to me some time ago, was in essence just a madrassa).

    But there is no quick fire solution. You can't lock up an ideology. You have to fight a culture war. And win.
    We could properly identify those spreading this poison and put them into permanent solitary isolation.
    Human rights lawyers would be all over that in seconds.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    MrEd said:

    Hopefully, none are serious injuries.

    However, how long before we hear the phrase "mental issues" being mentioned?
    5 4 3 2 1 - incoming - Germany have raised that to an art form - but they are getting plenty of practice
    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Let's say I am an islamic fundamentalist but with a balanced mind. Yes, I want to overthrow the west and establish a caliphate and push Israel into the sea. But then perhaps I also want to play for Arsenal and get a good job in sales and I just get on with my life as normal while subordinating my less likely aspirations because, frankly, I don't think it will happen and it would be immoral to try to bring it about through violence.

    An islamic fundamentalist who has mental health problems, meanwhile, may believe that attacking people as they are coming out of Morrisons is a sure fire way to achieve that caliphate.

    And of course finally let's suppose I am not an islamic fundamentalist at all and have mental health problems. Perhaps I think it would be very interesting to see what happens if I throw a child off the balcony of the Tate Modern.

    It's not always an either/or.
    The point being with the establishment is they push the mental health aspect and try to ignore the ideology
    Yes I understand that it happens. And it is often a necessary but not sufficient factor. But by the same token, many seek to ignore the mental health elements completely as well.
    I am sure the Islamic fundamentalists are more than happy to exploit peoples mental health weaknesses.

    What we should be asking is who radicalises them and how.

    No curiosity on the part of our media at all.......
    But that would lead to asking about "clerics" in prisons, where they come from and who funds them.

    All BadThink questions.
    Not just in prisons.

    No one is disputing we have an issue with radicalisation in the UK and yes prisons and elsewhere can be problematic (Belmarsh, it was described to me some time ago, was in essence just a madrassa).

    But there is no quick fire solution. You can't lock up an ideology. You have to fight a culture war. And win.
    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?


  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    MrEd said:

    Hopefully, none are serious injuries.

    However, how long before we hear the phrase "mental issues" being mentioned?
    5 4 3 2 1 - incoming - Germany have raised that to an art form - but they are getting plenty of practice
    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Let's say I am an islamic fundamentalist but with a balanced mind. Yes, I want to overthrow the west and establish a caliphate and push Israel into the sea. But then perhaps I also want to play for Arsenal and get a good job in sales and I just get on with my life as normal while subordinating my less likely aspirations because, frankly, I don't think it will happen and it would be immoral to try to bring it about through violence.

    An islamic fundamentalist who has mental health problems, meanwhile, may believe that attacking people as they are coming out of Morrisons is a sure fire way to achieve that caliphate.

    And of course finally let's suppose I am not an islamic fundamentalist at all and have mental health problems. Perhaps I think it would be very interesting to see what happens if I throw a child off the balcony of the Tate Modern.

    It's not always an either/or.
    The point being with the establishment is they push the mental health aspect and try to ignore the ideology
    Yes I understand that it happens. And it is often a necessary but not sufficient factor. But by the same token, many seek to ignore the mental health elements completely as well.
    I am sure the Islamic fundamentalists are more than happy to exploit peoples mental health weaknesses.

    What we should be asking is who radicalises them and how.

    No curiosity on the part of our media at all.......
    But that would lead to asking about "clerics" in prisons, where they come from and who funds them.

    All BadThink questions.
    Not just in prisons.

    No one is disputing we have an issue with radicalisation in the UK and yes prisons and elsewhere can be problematic (Belmarsh, it was described to me some time ago, was in essence just a madrassa).

    But there is no quick fire solution. You can't lock up an ideology. You have to fight a culture war. And win.
    We could properly identify those spreading this poison and put them into permanent solitary isolation.
    Human rights lawyers would be all over that in seconds.
    One imagines there would be ways around that within the prison system.
  • Labour is absolutely right to oppose Independence, even if I oppose this position. Electorally, it is the only position that can win Labour support in England.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    We could properly identify those spreading this poison and put them into permanent solitary isolation.

    Whack a mole you mean?

    We have tried such tactics in the past with no great degree of success and some degree of unsuccess.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    glw said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course the irony is Trump opposed the Iraq War and Biden backed it, ultra hawks like Bolton have drifted away from Trump

    Trump did not oppose the Iraq war. A big clue to that fact should be the fact that Trump says he opposed the Iraq war, and mostly he lies.

    HYUFD is one of the few posters here who repeats Trump's lies as if they are true.
    https://www.factcheck.org/2016/02/donald-trump-and-the-iraq-war/
    March 2003 Trump called the Iraq War 'depressing.' Biden voted for the Iraq War as a Senator.

    Middle Eastern or South Asian territories invaded or bombed by previous US Presidents, Bush Afghanistan and Iraq, Obama Libya and Syria.

    Trump has not invaded any Middle Eastern nations as president, nor has he sent in troops or bombers to nations the US was not already in.

    Bar Sanders he was the least hawkish candidate in reality this year.

    Biden would probably be the most hawkish Democratic president since Johnson
    Not true. Contrary to what he says Trump has escalated drone strikes and he’s not even reporting the numbers anymore - Trump revokes Obama rule on reporting drone strike deaths http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47480207
    Obama started military actions in 2 other nations, Syria and Libya, than he was left with and used plenty of drones. Publishing the civilians your drones blew up does not change the fact you blew them up.

    New military conflicts started by Trump 0
    Trump came very close to starting a war with Iran, explicitly saying that any casualties from an Iranian response to the assassination of Soleimani would be met be an overwhelming retaliation. Iran fired missiles at bases in Iraq, and service people were injured, but the DOD sat on that fact for a few days to give Trump time to cool down. In the end 29 Purple Hearts were awarded for injuries related to that Iranian attack. That the DOD has to do such things to stop a lunatic like Trump sparking a war is concerning.
    Ignoring the assertions you made, did not Iran come close to causing a war?

    Or do we ignore their actions?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Floater said:

    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?

    You have to demonstrate that your way of life is superior to any other and in particular to the one being advocated by those who seek to harm you because they don't value your way of life.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    ... the Netherlands itself being waist deep in the slave trade ...

    Mind you, so was Britain. That's another name that needs to go before too long.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Labour is absolutely right to oppose Independence, even if I oppose this position. Electorally, it is the only position that can win Labour support in England.

    Plus Starmer likely needs Scottish MPs to become PM and most Labour supporters in Scotland are Unionists, the majority of ex Labour voters who are nationalists are already voting SNP.

    So he risks losing more voters to the Tories or LDs in Scotland than to the SNP if SLab is seen as weak on the Union by backing indyref2
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Fishing said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    ... the Netherlands itself being waist deep in the slave trade ...

    Mind you, so was Britain. That's another name that needs to go before too long.
    We could change the name to something neutral and start a trend for numbering countries. We can be "Country Number One".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    We could properly identify those spreading this poison and put them into permanent solitary isolation.

    Whack a mole you mean?

    We have tried such tactics in the past with no great degree of success and some degree of unsuccess.
    A start might be not allowing the more lunatic preachers access to prisons.

    If a a Church of The Creator "pastor" was turning prisoners into member of the KKK (or whatever) I would rather hope his/her visitors pass would be cancelled.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited June 2020
    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?

    You have to demonstrate that your way of life is superior to any other and in particular to the one being advocated by those who seek to harm you because they don't value your way of life.
    I'm not sure that is a goer. I think banning overseas funding of mosques is probably a much better practical step.

    Specific to prisoners, it's very difficult indeed to prove that a culture which has just taken away your freedom is better than anything.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Fishing said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    ... the Netherlands itself being waist deep in the slave trade ...

    Mind you, so was Britain. That's another name that needs to go before too long.
    We could change the name to something neutral and start a trend for numbering countries. We can be "Country Number One".
    That would be awfully hierarchical.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?

    You have to demonstrate that your way of life is superior to any other and in particular to the one being advocated by those who seek to harm you because they don't value your way of life.
    and we do that by not challenging these arguments head on?

    They live here and these islamists reject our tolerance, they reject our notions of equality and actively teach against these things.

    i'm curious as to how you think we can "show" them that our way of life is better?

    Something else for you to think on, why are we seeing numbers of converts getting the idea that the way forward is violence and slaughter?


    Who is teaching them this and more to the point what are we doing about it?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    So he has no idea what he wants to do?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    What else is the Church for?

    Why anyone still pays attention to these plonkers is beyond me. Who cares, ignore them.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    The policeman is critical but stable

    Best wishes to him and his family
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited June 2020

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    We could properly identify those spreading this poison and put them into permanent solitary isolation.

    Whack a mole you mean?

    We have tried such tactics in the past with no great degree of success and some degree of unsuccess.
    A start might be not allowing the more lunatic preachers access to prisons.

    If a a Church of The Creator "pastor" was turning prisoners into member of the KKK (or whatever) I would rather hope his/her visitors pass would be cancelled.
    Anyone can feelfree to post a list of lunatic Pastors who have access to prisons in the UK.

    Suspect that this is the very definition of an issue that does not exist at all, or at most hardly exists.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?

    You have to demonstrate that your way of life is superior to any other and in particular to the one being advocated by those who seek to harm you because they don't value your way of life.
    I'm not sure that is a goer. I think banning overseas funding of mosques is probably a much better practical step.

    Specific to prisoners, it's very difficult indeed to prove that a culture which has just taken away your freedom is better than anything.
    I mean it sounds an awfully lot like a "war on terror".

    Where have I heard that before?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    More or less agree with that. The ABC does not have ultimate discretion in most places as power is very dispersed - eg Westminster Abbey will probably be the Dean then the Queen.

    One of the reasons Archbishop Rowan was roasted on a spit was that he was reliant on authority not power.

    My great concern would be vandalism; a lot of ancient churches are accessible. And it is exactly the sort of thing some of the thicker, more excitable protestors might try.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?
    The Frenzy of the Woke is mirroring the path of the Pandemic: it is so outlandish we react with disbelief, we refuse to imagine its likely evolution. Normalcy Bias.

    ie You keep thinking, Well, it can't get that bad, and then it does. Then you think, well, it will stop here, but then it doesn't. You presume they won't come for Abraham Lincoln - Abraham Lincoln! - and then they do

    https://twitter.com/chrissyclark_/status/1276522516954177537?s=20
    And who was killed by somebody who wanted to revive the Confederate cause....and go back to slavery.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    OllyT said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mmm. Not an overt warmonger is probably Trumps greatest achievement.

    I think I'll hang on till November before saying too much!
    You mean mid-January.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?
    The Frenzy of the Woke is mirroring the path of the Pandemic: it is so outlandish we react with disbelief, we refuse to imagine its likely evolution. Normalcy Bias.

    ie You keep thinking, Well, it can't get that bad, and then it does. Then you think, well, it will stop here, but then it doesn't. You presume they won't come for Abraham Lincoln - Abraham Lincoln! - and then they do

    https://twitter.com/chrissyclark_/status/1276522516954177537?s=20
    Lincoln has been in their sights for a while.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,410
    Was Eadric banned again? I only ask because Mrs Eadric seems to have appeared....
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    edited June 2020

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    And from now on eggs Benedict will be served with 'Freedom-aise' sauce
    There was a time when people couldn't see a problem with bear-baiting or Robertson's "Gollywogs". There have always been reactionaries who believe every step forward is the end of civilisation as we know it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    When it comes to religion, how far are they going to go back to decide if people should be cancelled? I mean most historic religious figures weren't exactly pro-LGBT and I imagine like a lot of big buildings, churches etc were funded by wealthy people of the times, who will have made their money directly or indirectly from industries that used slave labour.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020
    Your own poll indicates that 50% neither know nor care about it! :lol:
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    edited June 2020

    Labour is absolutely right to oppose Independence, even if I oppose this position. Electorally, it is the only position that can win Labour support in England.

    Starmer is making all the right decision and I reserve judgment but this does look like RLB is his 'Kinnock' moment. I do wonder if he is aware of the general thrust of the ECHR report and is readying for a clear out of labour of all those named in the report, including several current labour mps

    The interesting question is that RLB was the easy part as he could reject her from his shadow cabinet while retaining the whip for now, but what happens if one of more of his backbenchers are named in the ECHR. No doubt he will have to withdraw the whip

    As far as Boris is concerned his inability to sack Cummings and Jenrick is just wrong and I doubt he will be in office lomg term. He has lost me and I hope he stands down post brexit, but we are where we are and I just hope he and Rishi can make the right decisions on the economy over the next few months

    Turning to Starmer's support for the Union I am delighted he has done that and expect the SNP will not be happy as apart from the Greens, they will have a strong cross party alliance supporting the union and I expect Gordon Brown to join Starmer's campaign

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Was Eadric banned again? I only ask because Mrs Eadric seems to have appeared....

    Eadric needs a couple more hours drinking time before he can come on and panic rant :-)
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    And from now on eggs Benedict will be served with 'Freedom-aise' sauce
    There was a time when people couldn't see a problem with bear-baiting or Robertson's "Gollywogs". There have always been reactionaries who believe every step forward ins the end of civilisation.
    And there have always been simple-minded 'progressives' who think that if they can just destroy all traces of the existing civilization, then the door will finally be open to their new Utopia...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    Labour is absolutely right to oppose Independence, even if I oppose this position. Electorally, it is the only position that can win Labour support in England.

    I see no issue with a party taking such a stance if it regards the position as fundamental. It might not be tactically wise, who knows, but on such issues you cannot fudge positions as easily.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?
    The Frenzy of the Woke is mirroring the path of the Pandemic: it is so outlandish we react with disbelief, we refuse to imagine its likely evolution. Normalcy Bias.

    ie You keep thinking, Well, it can't get that bad, and then it does. Then you think, well, it will stop here, but then it doesn't. You presume they won't come for Abraham Lincoln - Abraham Lincoln! - and then they do

    https://twitter.com/chrissyclark_/status/1276522516954177537?s=20
    Lincoln has been in their sights for a while.
    Well, he was a Republican...
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    LadyG said:

    FF43 said:

    Frankly they should close the beaches and be done with it

    A mass brawl at my local beach in Ogmore by Sea, that has made the news.

    There is a beach near me with direct access via a ladder down a vertical cliff face. There is a half mile walk from the road to the beach. Yesterday I counted 30 cars parked on the road, a rather narrow lane. And we are technically in lockdown.

    Why can't British people behave themselves?
    I don't think most people deliberately flout lockdown. They lack imagination. They all individually decide they want a day by the sea. Having made the journey to Bournemouth or wherever, they aren't going to turn round and go back again. So they squeeze in. Whereas there will be nicer, and certainly much less crowded, places nearer home that they never thought of.
    I have a news photographer friend who was sent to Bournemouth yesterday. He said the tension was palpable - and divided by race. Poles, blacks and Irish were threatening each other as they crowded onto the sands.

    He predicted violence, and he was right: there were three stabbings this morning.
    The Irish are travelling to our beaches?

    No 14 day quarantine I suppose.

    Have you not notced that some people born in Ireland live in England?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    And from now on eggs Benedict will be served with 'Freedom-aise' sauce
    There was a time when people couldn't see a problem with bear-baiting or Robertson's "Gollywogs". There have always been reactionaries who believe every step forward is the end of civilisation as we know it.
    So are all steps always forwards?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    Why include the words "to be seen to be"? Why not simply "the Church needs to be inclusive to its BAME community...."?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    I think this one is all Jenrick.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm !
    Wouldn't jobs have been a quicker and better answer ?

    Trump's answer contained 13 instances of "I" and three of "great". When will he do something that clearly gives him a lift? Seems he's failing at everything at the moment.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited June 2020
    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?

    You have to demonstrate that your way of life is superior to any other and in particular to the one being advocated by those who seek to harm you because they don't value your way of life.
    and we do that by not challenging these arguments head on?

    They live here and these islamists reject our tolerance, they reject our notions of equality and actively teach against these things.

    i'm curious as to how you think we can "show" them that our way of life is better?

    Something else for you to think on, why are we seeing numbers of converts getting the idea that the way forward is violence and slaughter?


    Who is teaching them this and more to the point what are we doing about it?
    If you think that banging up a few hate preachers in Luton is going to solve things then I fear you are in for a disappointment.

    Of course you challenge the arguments head on. A global caliphate. Go for your life and challenge it "head on". Perhaps some public information films on BBC4?

    The gruelling fact is that all we have in our arsenal is a demonstration of our way of life and the conviction that it is a better path for people. That is the reality in the 21st century in the West. We can't wage war on Islam or its proponents, we can't lock them all up, and we are in the end pretty powerless.

    Where were the 7/7 terrorists radicalised? It wasn't down the Dog & Duck in Haslemere. Are we planning to send troops into the Pakistani hinterlands to seek out the Haqqani Network?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    Why include the words "to be seen to be"? Why not simply "the Church needs to be inclusive to its BAME community...."?
    Either way it is probably sensible to move statues of slave traders in churches and cathedrals to a museum
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?
    The Frenzy of the Woke is mirroring the path of the Pandemic: it is so outlandish we react with disbelief, we refuse to imagine its likely evolution. Normalcy Bias.

    ie You keep thinking, Well, it can't get that bad, and then it does. Then you think, well, it will stop here, but then it doesn't. You presume they won't come for Abraham Lincoln - Abraham Lincoln! - and then they do

    https://twitter.com/chrissyclark_/status/1276522516954177537?s=20
    It does rather show that these people believe no sin can redeemed. It does make it harder for people to acknowledge their own sin.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    THAT is some bloody good news in an otherwise very depressing state-of-affairs
    I posted this a few days back
    Pulpstar said:


    Another thing
    Doctors now know to be much more cautious before putting people on a mechanical ventilator and also for people to lie on their stomach. There's the remdisivir advance and probably a number of other small ones in the treatment too.
    So the death rate from the virus should have dropped for equal prevalence compared to prior.

    The collorary is that any calculation of "R" from deaths will skew low.
    If the death rate on hospitalisation is a quarter of what it was then it would skew VERY low depending on how long that improvement is spread over.
    Halving time of 32 days if you take the improvement as happening over the period from peak to present. That's likely too pessimistic but certainly it could well explain the generally higher "r" the eggheads have been calculating compared to, well myself.
  • MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    More or less agree with that. The ABC does not have ultimate discretion in most places as power is very dispersed - eg Westminster Abbey will probably be the Dean then the Queen.

    One of the reasons Archbishop Rowan was roasted on a spit was that he was reliant on authority not power.

    My great concern would be vandalism; a lot of ancient churches are accessible. And it is exactly the sort of thing some of the thicker, more excitable protestors might try.
    In fairness to the ABC lots of institutions are promising to hold reviews. How many questionable statues have actually been removed so far? 2-3? It could be the reviews take place and no further statues are removed.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?
    The Frenzy of the Woke is mirroring the path of the Pandemic: it is so outlandish we react with disbelief, we refuse to imagine its likely evolution. Normalcy Bias.

    ie You keep thinking, Well, it can't get that bad, and then it does. Then you think, well, it will stop here, but then it doesn't. You presume they won't come for Abraham Lincoln - Abraham Lincoln! - and then they do

    https://twitter.com/chrissyclark_/status/1276522516954177537?s=20
    It does rather show that these people believe no sin can redeemed. It does make it harder for people to acknowledge their own sin.
    If they're looking at statues in churches, there wouldn't be many saints left...
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    Why include the words "to be seen to be"? Why not simply "the Church needs to be inclusive to its BAME community...."?
    Being inclusive is not sufficient (and if I were to by cynical, not necessary either); you need to be seen to be as well (or instead of).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Its funny hearing people objecting to the Church virtue signalling and rewriting history.

    That's all religion has ever been! Religion IS virtue signalling, it always has been.

    Nobody could actually seriously believe there's an all-powerful divine being that is simultaneously both so powerful He could create the universe in six days but so insecure He takes attendance. Attendance has always been virtue signalling.

    As for rewriting history the Church are masters at that. All organised religions for thousands of years have tried to rewrite history to make their own fictions relevant.

    Welby is following a well worn path. What else should he do? If the Church were to abolish virtue signalling what would it stand for anymore?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    Why include the words "to be seen to be"? Why not simply "the Church needs to be inclusive to its BAME community...."?
    Because as on many things you need to prove you've done something not just do it. Itd be very easy to make progress on many issues but if no one acknowledges it it wont matter. Of course, the converse issue is not to present as doing something without doing it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    And from now on eggs Benedict will be served with 'Freedom-aise' sauce
    There was a time when people couldn't see a problem with bear-baiting or Robertson's "Gollywogs". There have always been reactionaries who believe every step forward is the end of civilisation as we know it.
    So are all steps always forwards?
    No.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?

    You have to demonstrate that your way of life is superior to any other and in particular to the one being advocated by those who seek to harm you because they don't value your way of life.
    and we do that by not challenging these arguments head on?

    They live here and these islamists reject our tolerance, they reject our notions of equality and actively teach against these things.

    i'm curious as to how you think we can "show" them that our way of life is better?

    Something else for you to think on, why are we seeing numbers of converts getting the idea that the way forward is violence and slaughter?


    Who is teaching them this and more to the point what are we doing about it?
    If you think that banging up a few hate preachers in Luton is going to solve things then I fear you are in for a disappointment.

    Of course you challenge the arguments head on. A global caliphate. Go for your life and challenge it "head on". Perhaps some public information films on BBC4?

    The gruelling fact is that all we have in our arsenal is a demonstration of our way of life and the conviction that it is a better path for people. That is the reality in the 21st century in the West. We can't wage war on Islam or its proponents, we can't lock them all up, and we are in the end pretty powerless.

    Where were the 7/7 terrorists radicalised? It wasn't down the Dog & Duck in Haslemere. Are we planning to send troops into the Pakistani hinterlands to seek out the Haqqani Network?
    Your entire response appears to be "its too difficult, lets just ignore and hope it goes away"

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2020
    And of course the entire body of European religious paintings is going to have be destroyed, All those excruciatingly white Raphael Madonnas and the milk-white baby Jesus figures are unquestionably racist. Europe has airbrushed BAME figures from Christian history.

    You read it here first.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    Even Ronald Reagan in the grip of incipient dementia made much more sense than this.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Really?

    Had Keir majored on trial by jury instead of banging on about Jenrick he could have claimed a victory. Instead he's been banging on about this and the public don't care by your own survey!

    You could have a survey ask if Bob Smith should resign from the government and a significant proportion would say yes.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    And from now on eggs Benedict will be served with 'Freedom-aise' sauce
    There was a time when people couldn't see a problem with bear-baiting or Robertson's "Gollywogs". There have always been reactionaries who believe every step forward ins the end of civilisation.
    And there have always been simple-minded 'progressives' who think that if they can just destroy all traces of the existing civilization, then the door will finally be open to their new Utopia...
    OK. Trying naming one area where the norm has not become more progressive over the last 50 years.

    Womens's rights? Race relations? Gay Rights? Abortion? Divorce? Animal rights? Religious observance?

    There might be bumps in the road but history is most definitely not flowing in your direction. This "Conservative" Party that you support would be unrecognisable to a "Conservatives" from 50 years ago.

    Continue raging against the dying of the light by all means but you are like King Canute trying to hold back the tide.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Really?

    Had Keir majored on trial by jury instead of banging on about Jenrick he could have claimed a victory. Instead he's been banging on about this and the public don't care by your own survey!

    You could have a survey ask if Bob Smith should resign from the government and a significant proportion would say yes.
    I'm not so sure, sometimes the better plan is to not draw attention to a stupid idea in the hope that it will be fixed quietly as you aren't forcing people to double down on the decision
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    How long before Great Britain as a name is under attack for connection with slavery?

    That's where we are going. I give it a couple of weeks.
    Look at this incredible poll of self-declared liberals, in America

    https://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/1275692064982917120?s=20


    I can see The Frenzy descending into street battles, in the end.


    God help us, another Sean T incarnation
  • theProletheProle Posts: 948

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    Why include the words "to be seen to be"? Why not simply "the Church needs to be inclusive to its BAME community...."?
    The issues which will blow the Anglican communion apart are nothing to do with the statues in Westminster Abbey, and everything to do with the huge gulf between the Western liberals and the (mostl) African evangelicals on issues such as gay bishops and transgenderism.
    Welby is on the losing side on this; Christianity is about believing in what the Bible clearly teaches, but Welby doesn't really believe in that anything apsolute - he's all vagueness and waffle. Historically liberalism dies out in little more than a generation from the point were it decouples from concrete beliefs, this process is going on pretty rapidly in the western liberal wing at present, meanwhile there is strong conservative evangelical growth in Africa (and in a UK context, the only bits which show any sign of growth are the conservative evangelicals).
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20

    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    They already renamed Caer Lud, and on top of that they had a Renaissance and a Reformation. Bloody disgrace if you ask me. As all sane people know, history has stopped, right?4
    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    If the CofE is seriously considering tearing down every "problematic" statue and monument in England's cathedrals and abbeys, then we will end up with empty whitewashed warehouses with pretty spires.

    Everyone born before 1995 is "problematic" by BLM standards, from royals to poets, from Darwin to Shakespeare, they have all done, said, written, or thought something that would fail the laws of the Woke puritans.

    It's insane. It is an attempt to erase history.
    Do you think Darwin wrote about stasis or change?

    Save the groat!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    More or less agree with that. The ABC does not have ultimate discretion in most places as power is very dispersed - eg Westminster Abbey will probably be the Dean then the Queen.

    One of the reasons Archbishop Rowan was roasted on a spit was that he was reliant on authority not power.

    My great concern would be vandalism; a lot of ancient churches are accessible. And it is exactly the sort of thing some of the thicker, more excitable protestors might try.
    In fairness to the ABC lots of institutions are promising to hold reviews. How many questionable statues have actually been removed so far? 2-3? It could be the reviews take place and no further statues are removed.
    So far. Let's hope it ends here.

    However, in America the iconoclasm is raging away: dozens of statues and monuments have been toppled or destroyed and the anger is not abating.

    And the UK generally copies America, six weeks later

    We need some traditional cold summer rain
    It's arrived here in North Notts.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    Really?

    Had Keir majored on trial by jury instead of banging on about Jenrick he could have claimed a victory. Instead he's been banging on about this and the public don't care by your own survey!

    You could have a survey ask if Bob Smith should resign from the government and a significant proportion would say yes.
    In both RLB and Jenrick's polls the 41% and 50% don't knows are incredibly high

    Maybe time to step out of the political bubble and realise the public have far more real worries and concerns about their lives
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    That's what we wanted.

    That the EU are realising we aren't going to stay tied in like you wanted william is a good thing.

    If the UK didn't "live with the consequences" then all this would have been for naught. We may as well have voted Remain.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,703
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Next: the churches. Statues in Westminster Abbey to be "very carefully looked at", in case of Wrongthink.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1276484949001023493?s=20

    Has anyone told this fool that 'No' is a complete sentence?

    There are already quite enough Archbishops of Woke - they don't need any more.
    Welby is actually being quite sensible on this, the fastest growth in the Anglican Church of which he is spiritual global head is in Africa, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria than in England for instance and a higher percentage of black British people attend Church of England services than white British, certainly amongst the younger generation.

    The Church needs to be seen to be inclusive to its BAME community without getting too close to the far left either
    Why include the words "to be seen to be"? Why not simply "the Church needs to be inclusive to its BAME community...."?
    Either way it is probably sensible to move statues of slave traders in churches and cathedrals to a museum
    But it cannot end there, can it? If we believe the 18th century economy was built on slavery then every successful proprietor had a hand in it, not just slave traders. He may have felled the trees that built the ships that transported the slaves - doesn't matter. And every village church in England will have a plaque celebrating his philanthropy, and maybe a recumbent statue on his tomb. And possibly his descendants are still in occupation of the grand house he built, nightly fearing Zimbabwe-style restitution.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    edited June 2020
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    And from now on eggs Benedict will be served with 'Freedom-aise' sauce
    There was a time when people couldn't see a problem with bear-baiting or Robertson's "Gollywogs". There have always been reactionaries who believe every step forward ins the end of civilisation.
    And there have always been simple-minded 'progressives' who think that if they can just destroy all traces of the existing civilization, then the door will finally be open to their new Utopia...
    OK. Trying naming one area where the norm has not become more progressive over the last 50 years.

    Womens's rights? Race relations? Gay Rights? Abortion? Divorce? Animal rights? Religious observance?

    There might be bumps in the road but history is most definitely not flowing in your direction. This "Conservative" Party that you support would be unrecognisable to a "Conservatives" from 50 years ago.

    Continue raging against the dying of the light by all means but you are like King Canute trying to hold back the tide.
    The number of stable democracies in recent decades may be going backwards. Islamic fundamentalism seems pretty bad. Your canute reference makes no sense (never mind how most are unfair on poor cnut) because as his name applies hes a tory loyalist, and as you point out the party has changed a lot on 50 years, so hes clearly not arguing things should never change even if wants less to change than you, me or others.

    Edit. And we should consider things on a longer scale . It's been a good few centuries despite some major hiccups, but you do get bad centuries. I doubt we're facing civilisation collapse but societies can regress and theres no harm being wary of that- i dont think we're trending to a dystopia, but anyone who talks like progress is inevitable because its mostly been great is being too complacent.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    Really?

    Had Keir majored on trial by jury instead of banging on about Jenrick he could have claimed a victory. Instead he's been banging on about this and the public don't care by your own survey!

    You could have a survey ask if Bob Smith should resign from the government and a significant proportion would say yes.
    You mean you think he shouldn’t?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    How do you fight a culture war by ignoring the arguments / ideology that underpin radicalisation ?

    You have to demonstrate that your way of life is superior to any other and in particular to the one being advocated by those who seek to harm you because they don't value your way of life.
    and we do that by not challenging these arguments head on?

    They live here and these islamists reject our tolerance, they reject our notions of equality and actively teach against these things.

    i'm curious as to how you think we can "show" them that our way of life is better?

    Something else for you to think on, why are we seeing numbers of converts getting the idea that the way forward is violence and slaughter?


    Who is teaching them this and more to the point what are we doing about it?
    If you think that banging up a few hate preachers in Luton is going to solve things then I fear you are in for a disappointment.

    Of course you challenge the arguments head on. A global caliphate. Go for your life and challenge it "head on". Perhaps some public information films on BBC4?

    The gruelling fact is that all we have in our arsenal is a demonstration of our way of life and the conviction that it is a better path for people. That is the reality in the 21st century in the West. We can't wage war on Islam or its proponents, we can't lock them all up, and we are in the end pretty powerless.

    Where were the 7/7 terrorists radicalised? It wasn't down the Dog & Duck in Haslemere. Are we planning to send troops into the Pakistani hinterlands to seek out the Haqqani Network?
    Your entire response appears to be "its too difficult, lets just ignore and hope it goes away"

    Not at all. My response is that the way to defeat radical Islam is to demonstrate that our society and way of life is superior.

    What is your response? Lock up some preachers? That it? That'll do the trick will it? Plus those in the

    What is your comprehensive response to defeat "terrorism"?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    How long before Great Britain as a name is under attack for connection with slavery?

    That's where we are going. I give it a couple of weeks.
    Look at this incredible poll of self-declared liberals, in America

    https://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/1275692064982917120?s=20


    I can see The Frenzy descending into street battles, in the end.


    God help us, another Sean T incarnation
    I have a friend who claims they're all different people...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Really?

    Had Keir majored on trial by jury instead of banging on about Jenrick he could have claimed a victory. Instead he's been banging on about this and the public don't care by your own survey!

    You could have a survey ask if Bob Smith should resign from the government and a significant proportion would say yes.
    You mean you think he shouldn’t?
    Of course not! Bob Smith hasn't done anything wrong, he was entirely justified and is an asset to the government. This witchhunt against Bob Smith must end. 😇
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Novak Djokovic's coach Goran Ivanisevic is the latest person involved with the world number one's Adria Tour to test positive for coronavirus.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/53195458
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Nigelb said:

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    How long before Great Britain as a name is under attack for connection with slavery?

    That's where we are going. I give it a couple of weeks.
    Look at this incredible poll of self-declared liberals, in America

    https://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/1275692064982917120?s=20


    I can see The Frenzy descending into street battles, in the end.


    God help us, another Sean T incarnation
    I have a friend who claims they're all different people...
    Does he originate from Albania and drive a taxi?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,089
    edited June 2020
    kle4 said:

    I think this one is all Jenrick.
    True, but think what's in Labour's interest.

    It's not particularly that Jenrick goes, and the opposition can't force that anyway. Not against a majority of 80.

    It's to create a negative image of the government in the eyes of the public. In the case of this government, that it's untrustworthy and "do as I say, not as I do".

    So Starmer hasn't gone all-in on JENRICK MUST GO; that's the mistake Corbyn made all the time. I'm sure he'd be happy to say "I couldn't possibly comment about the Jenrick Must Go editorial in the Daily Mail" if asked, though.

    Because every day that something like this goes on, it catches the attention of someone, somewhere. (Front page of Metro is interesting; that's the paper for people who don't really read papers). A tiny crack here, a little bit of mud sticking there. It's got four years to add up. SKS might turn out not to be a genius politician, but broad competence at nuts & bolts is a positive step forward.

    (Conversely, that's why the political rulebook before 2019 said "ministers in a hole go, even if it's not strictly legally needed, and advisors doubly so". Because that shoots the fox, and reduces the overall damage. The next few years are now a test of that theory...)
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Trump walks noisily and carries a small stick.

    For American democracy and its soul he's a
    chaotic undisciplined necrotic troll.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    And from now on eggs Benedict will be served with 'Freedom-aise' sauce
    There was a time when people couldn't see a problem with bear-baiting or Robertson's "Gollywogs". There have always been reactionaries who believe every step forward ins the end of civilisation.
    And there have always been simple-minded 'progressives' who think that if they can just destroy all traces of the existing civilization, then the door will finally be open to their new Utopia...
    OK. Trying naming one area where the norm has not become more progressive over the last 50 years.

    Womens's rights? Race relations? Gay Rights? Abortion? Divorce? Animal rights? Religious observance?

    There might be bumps in the road but history is most definitely not flowing in your direction. This "Conservative" Party that you support would be unrecognisable to a "Conservatives" from 50 years ago.

    Continue raging against the dying of the light by all means but you are like King Canute trying to hold back the tide.
    Better a Cnut than a ... whatever these vandals are.

    And one of the advantages of appreciating history is the understanding that its sweep cannot be defined by the miniscule metric of 'the last 50 years'.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    Really?

    Had Keir majored on trial by jury instead of banging on about Jenrick he could have claimed a victory. Instead he's been banging on about this and the public don't care by your own survey!

    You could have a survey ask if Bob Smith should resign from the government and a significant proportion would say yes.
    You mean you think he shouldn’t?
    Of course not! Bob Smith hasn't done anything wrong, he was entirely justified and is an asset to the government. This witchhunt against Bob Smith must end. 😇
    According to Wikipedia there have been nine MPs called Robert Smith, including two at the same time. That was in 1421 though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    LadyG said:

    And of course the entire body of European religious paintings is going to have be destroyed, All those excruciatingly white Raphael Madonnas and the milk-white baby Jesus figures are unquestionably racist. Europe has airbrushed BAME figures from Christian history.

    You read it here first.

    No, this guy said it first. And he meant it. He's a leader of BLM

    https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1275113067555303424?s=20
    As previously discussed we've had more than enough vandalism in the name of religion in this country. What was it..... something like 90% of British art was destroyed in the Reformation and half the rest by the Puritans.

    Obviously it was 'wrong' that, in Western Europe Jesus etc were depicted as blue eyed and brown haired, but it did enable the locals to identify with him. IIRC, he's not depicted in Kerala etc?

    Mohammed had a damn good idea when he said that you should NEVER make a picture of God.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461

    Really?

    Had Keir majored on trial by jury instead of banging on about Jenrick he could have claimed a victory. Instead he's been banging on about this and the public don't care by your own survey!

    You could have a survey ask if Bob Smith should resign from the government and a significant proportion would say yes.
    In both RLB and Jenrick's polls the 41% and 50% don't knows are incredibly high

    Maybe time to step out of the political bubble and realise the public have far more real worries and concerns about their lives
    Do you really think we should be governed by opinion polling? I don't really care what proportion of the public think Jenrick should resign. I think he should go because what he has done is, if not corrupt, then sailing very close to the wind. It stinks - morally, not just politically - and that stench adds to the overall narrative of poor, rather immoral governance. Why can't this government/PM just do the right thing on occasion, without making decisions based solely on either expediency, public opinion or both?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    I'm pretty relaxed about the whole statue thing. Leave 'em up, take 'em down - it's all good. It is just our society expressing itself.

    I'm sure there were counter demonstrations to keep the monastries in 1540.

    It's all in the broad sweep of history.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    LadyG said:

    And of course the entire body of European religious paintings is going to have be destroyed, All those excruciatingly white Raphael Madonnas and the milk-white baby Jesus figures are unquestionably racist. Europe has airbrushed BAME figures from Christian history.

    You read it here first.

    No, this guy said it first. And he meant it. He's a leader of BLM

    https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1275113067555303424?s=20
    As previously discussed we've had more than enough vandalism in the name of religion in this country. What was it..... something like 90% of British art was destroyed in the Reformation and half the rest by the Puritans.

    Obviously it was 'wrong' that, in Western Europe Jesus etc were depicted as blue eyed and brown haired, but it did enable the locals to identify with him. IIRC, he's not depicted in Kerala etc?

    Mohammed had a damn good idea when he said that you should NEVER make a picture of God.
    I’m fairly sure that Moses had that idea first.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    The 2020 Super League season will resume on 2 August, more than four months after it was suspended because of the coronavirus pandemic.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,089
    Nigelb said:

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    How long before Great Britain as a name is under attack for connection with slavery?

    That's where we are going. I give it a couple of weeks.
    Look at this incredible poll of self-declared liberals, in America

    https://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/1275692064982917120?s=20


    I can see The Frenzy descending into street battles, in the end.


    God help us, another Sean T incarnation
    I have a friend who claims they're all different people...
    Who was the one who was transitioning?

    Is the Lady G moniker a sign that it all went well?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    The US state of Florida has recorded 8,942 cases of coronavirus in one day - a new record number - and a 62% increase over the previous record of 5,508 reported on Wednesday.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Nigelb said:

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    How long before Great Britain as a name is under attack for connection with slavery?

    That's where we are going. I give it a couple of weeks.
    Look at this incredible poll of self-declared liberals, in America

    https://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/1275692064982917120?s=20


    I can see The Frenzy descending into street battles, in the end.


    God help us, another Sean T incarnation
    I have a friend who claims they're all different people...
    Is he called S.Tremayne?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kle4 said:

    I think this one is all Jenrick.
    True, but think what's in Labour's interest.

    It's not particularly that Jenrick goes, and the opposition can't force that anyway. Not against a majority of 80.

    It's to create a negative image of the government in the eyes of the public. In the case of this government, that it's untrustworthy and "do as I say, not as I do".

    So Starmer hasn't gone all-in on JENRICK MUST GO; that's the mistake Corbyn made all the time. I'm sure he'd be happy to say "I couldn't possibly comment about the Jenrick Must Go editorial in the Daily Mail" if asked, though.

    Because every day that something like this goes on, it catches the attention of someone, somewhere. (Front page of Metro is interesting; that's the paper for people who don't really read papers). A tiny crack here, a little bit of mud sticking there. It's got four years to add up. SKS might turn out not to be a genius politician, but broad competence at nuts & bolts is a postivie step forward.

    (Conversely, that's why the political rulebook before 2019 said "ministers in a hole go, even if it's not strictly legally needed, and advisors doubly so". Because that shoots the fox, and reduces the overall damage. The next few years are now a test of that theory...)
    The problem with that theory was that it led to a revolving door and incompetent government. Blair's government in particular was notorious for Ministers being rotated out of office annually either due to some scandal or general reshuffles.

    Thanks in part to the Coalition, Cameron kept his Ministers in place much more and they got to know their briefs very well. I don't think Hunt would be remotely as highly regarded on Health as he is now if he'd only been there a year or two then moved on to something else like Blair regularly did. There were six Health Secretaries under Labour while Hancock is only the second in over a decade under the Tories.

    Then May was so utterly incompetent and weak that there was more churn there than ever before. That led to constant pressure to replace others or see them resign.

    Boris is acting more like Cameron than May/Blair/Brown. He's keeping his team in place. I believe that over the course of years that will lead to better governance and that I expect is how the next election will be won not the chip papers of years ago.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    While I'd like to believe that, if people actually supported it to anywhere like that level it'd be a much bigger issue for MPs than it is.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited June 2020
    Konsequenz is a very German concept. I am a spiritual German, despite not having any ties to the country.


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    edited June 2020
    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    How long before Great Britain as a name is under attack for connection with slavery?

    That's where we are going. I give it a couple of weeks.
    Look at this incredible poll of self-declared liberals, in America

    https://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/1275692064982917120?s=20


    I can see The Frenzy descending into street battles, in the end.


    God help us, another Sean T incarnation
    Does that mean 6 more week of Summer?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    kle4 said:

    While I'd like to believe that, if people actually supported it to anywhere like that level it'd be a much bigger issue for MPs than it is.
    You are really telling me that people understand it all and its implications and then of those asked 54% say they want it?

    Struggling to believe that. I think the 9% is vastly understated.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    edited June 2020
    Toms said:

    Trump walks noisily and carries a small stick.

    Fake news!

    Donald Trump's stick is long and beautiful.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    Is anyone doing a count on the various names that Sean T has gone by in the last 5 yrs. It has to be at least double figures....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    OllyT said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    They're trying to rename entire London parks and neighbourhoods now

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1276493464310624256?s=20


    "The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea suggested that the park, underground station and entire district could end up being renamed."

    This terribly shameful association is why the Dutch insist that their country be referred to officially as the Netherlands... :wink:
    How long before Great Britain as a name is under attack for connection with slavery?

    That's where we are going. I give it a couple of weeks.
    Look at this incredible poll of self-declared liberals, in America

    https://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/1275692064982917120?s=20


    I can see The Frenzy descending into street battles, in the end.


    God help us, another Sean T incarnation
    I have a friend who claims they're all different people...
    Is he called S.Tremayne?
    No names, please.
This discussion has been closed.