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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » One of the reasons I’m not entirely confident on calling the P

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  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    This is truly nuts. White Supremacists do not like Jews full stop, especially Israel, it is the core of white supremacist ideology that Jews are not part of their definition of white.

    On the other hand those on the left are keen to push "Jews are white" to imply Jews are the ultimate cause of "white supremecy", hence simply defending the right of Israel to exist is white supremecy.

    How about not trying to racialise everything?
    people just tying themselves in knots and disappearing up their own jacksies just so they can shout racist about anything.
    Pedant wise it should be supremacy.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Scott_xP said:
    LOL. What will their reaction be, when it finally dawns on them that Gove and Cummings have been planning this for years, and the radical policy agenda is coming down the line like a steam train heading straight for Whitehall?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    This is a very impressive US program.

    https://twitter.com/DrMJoyner/status/1277238866806800384

    Website with details here:
    https://www.uscovidplasma.org/
    Cost per treatment apparently below $1k.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    Tres said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    Tres said:

    » show previous quotes
    Sounds to me like the witterings of an old dinosaur who can't cope with their world view being challenged.

    go blow it out your arse, come back when your pimples have disappeared and you know the first thing about life you obnoxious little creep.

    Haha, go find yourself some self-confidence, then maybe you wouldn't need to lash out so....
    As you were told the other day , you are just a weedy little troll who adds nothing to the debate , jog on loser.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    But WHY do lefties get so obsessed by Israel? It’s a small country quite a long way away. It is fairly pivotal in Middle East politics, but not in ours.

    So, why? One reason might be that it is inhabited by Jews. Therefore the leftwing obsession with Israel is actually an obsession with Jews. Look at Ken Livingstone for an example.

    That suggests anti-Semitism is the root, not a mere by-product.

    Same goes for right wing Israel obsessives, too, but these days they are smaller in number.
    Not to say that's never the case but I think on the Left it usually works as I described it. These people are steeped in an anti American imperialism mindset and Israel (to them) looks like an enduring and unacceptable bastion of it. It looks like a racist state where white people are oppressing brown ones and the oppressors are backed heavily by the Great Satan, the US.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.
    His best chance to do a Kinnock is going to be the EHRC antisemitism report, due later this year.

    Genuinely good luck to him, his best chance of holding the government to account is to present a credible alternative, as TB did 25 years ago.
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.

    Its more than 1 %!

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    ttps://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1277164408343597056

    Genuinely I'd have him in my top team any day, I find post-leadership Ed incredibly likeable.

    Post-politics politicians are an amazing bunch of people. They're much more likeable once they drop the petty party politics, and their former career has given them good communication and interpersonal skills - from Michael Portillo to Ed Balls.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Also probably not in champions league
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    This is truly nuts. White Supremacists do not like Jews full stop, especially Israel, it is the core of white supremacist ideology that Jews are not part of their definition of white.

    On the other hand those on the left are keen to push "Jews are white" to imply Jews are the ultimate cause of "white supremecy", hence simply defending the right of Israel to exist is white supremecy.

    How about not trying to racialise everything?
    Katie Hopkins and ilk. VERY pro Israel. As are many strands of white supremacist "thinking". Especially in the States. And especially where anti-Islam has been ardently embraced. Not all though. There are the "purists" (as you say) for whom white is white, rest are shite.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,744
    That makes it sound like he's only to be on GMB now he is more popular than Boris, like it was a prerequisite.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,942
    edited June 2020
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.

    Its more than 1 %!

    You really think the tories have kept the racist right out? Well it depends on where you start from I suppose
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,173
    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.
    I was with you all the way until your final statement.

    Let's not start throwing words like fascist about with regard to current Conservative members, but I think we can certainly use terms like authoritarian and xenophobic.

    Recently Terry Dicks died, and his passing has not gone unnoticed on this site. I understand it is bad form to speak ill of the departed, but at least they can't litigate. Terry Dicks fitted the frame of xenophobe and authoritarian quite comfortably. He was also a former Conservative Party member and MP.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150

    Scott_xP said:
    Sedwill's position was untenable when it was discovered he was trying to agree a two-year Brexit extension with Brussels - whilst Boris was in hospital with Covid.

    Cummins discovered this - and closed it down. Now we leave on 31st December 2020.

    The peeved reaction was the release of the long known about story of Cummins' trip to Durham....
    If this is true then Sedwill is a snake and deserves the boot.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very impressive US program.

    ttps://twitter.com/DrMJoyner/status/1277238866806800384

    Website with details here:
    https://www.uscovidplasma.org/
    Cost per treatment apparently below $1k.

    Sounds promising. In this part of the world, there's an experimental stem cell treatment program that's apparently delivering good results too.
    https://www.arabianbusiness.com/healthcare/448783-covid-19-uae-treats-over-2000-patients-with-faster-stem-cell-treatment

    Fingers crossed that, if we see a second wave this winter, there might be generally available treatments, at least in the most developed countries.
  • Options
    kicorsekicorse Posts: 431
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    But WHY do lefties get so obsessed by Israel? It’s a small country quite a long way away. It is fairly pivotal in Middle East politics, but not in ours.

    So, why? One reason might be that it is inhabited by Jews. Therefore the leftwing obsession with Israel is actually an obsession with Jews. Look at Ken Livingstone for an example.

    That suggests anti-Semitism is the root, not a mere by-product.

    Same goes for right wing Israel obsessives, too, but these days they are smaller in number.
    Not to say that is never the case but I do think on the Left it usually works as I described it. These people are steeped in an anti American imperialism mindset and Israel (to them) looks like an enduring and unacceptable bastion of it. It looks like a racist state where white people are oppressing brown ones and the oppressors are backed heavily by the Great Satan, the US.
    Yes, that's it. There are many governments that commit worse atrocities, but none of them are such secure allies of the West as that of Israel. The closest would be Saudi Arabia, and to be fair people on the left do talk a lot about Saudi Arabia, albeit not as much as Israel.

    Many people who are not racists suffer from confirmation bias, whether on the left or on the right. Some of those will therefore repeat myths about Israel without initially seeing a connection to anti-Semitism, just as Maxine Peake did. Some will refuse to see that link, even when it's pointed out to them, because they are used to the right crying wolf on many issues.

    Where there is some hope right now is that the swift action against anti-Semitism has happened in the same week as Labour has called for sanctions over the issue of annexation of territory in the West Bank. Owen Jones, for example, has praised the latter. Maybe it will help some people understand what is and is not legitimate criticism of Israel.
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
  • Options

    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.

    Its more than 1 %!

    More than 1% of the population have very left wing views, I am sure. But are more than 1% involved in the ludicrous Kremlinology of it all, engaging with po-faced, student union nonsense in the Jacobin, the Canary, Novara Media and so on?

    I suspect most people who are very left wing are sorry Corbyn never became PM and like him more than Starmer. But a lot of them accept that ship has sailed, still want a Labour Government, and in many cases realise that the party probably needs to reach out to the centre more than it did under their man.
  • Options

    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.

    Its more than 1 %!

    More than 1% of the population have very left wing views, I am sure. But are more than 1% involved in the ludicrous Kremlinology of it all, engaging with po-faced, student union nonsense in the Jacobin, the Canary, Novara Media and so on?

    I suspect most people who are very left wing are sorry Corbyn never became PM and like him more than Starmer. But a lot of them accept that ship has sailed, still want a Labour Government, and in many cases realise that the party probably needs to reach out to the centre more than it did under their man.
    I certainly do and it's an objective fact most Labour members do too.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Can't see MC spending any more money, it's going to have to be a combination of buys and sells if they wish to improve the squad over the summer.

    Liverpool should be favourites, although backing both horses at this point is probably the sensible strategy and pays more than a savings account.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,173
    Scott_xP said:
    Boris should have been 2-1 up in this game by now, Two open goals missed
    by Boris from inch perfect assists from both Cummings and Jenrick.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Is that right, civil service workers to WAH until next summer (obviously only where job role would allow it)?
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
    Yes, it's an interesting one - I think Liverpool have been very lucky this season with numerous games won very fortunately.

    Though I appreciate that's not a view you would pick up much from the media.

    I do wonder if in fact the underlying quality of both sides is about the same. If Man City now spend more and aren't in the CL then they may well be justified favourites.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    Back, back a .long time ago of course being pro-israel was a Left position. There were, IIRC, quite a few Tories who were pro-Arab, and hence Pro the Palestinians.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    kicorse said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    But WHY do lefties get so obsessed by Israel? It’s a small country quite a long way away. It is fairly pivotal in Middle East politics, but not in ours.

    So, why? One reason might be that it is inhabited by Jews. Therefore the leftwing obsession with Israel is actually an obsession with Jews. Look at Ken Livingstone for an example.

    That suggests anti-Semitism is the root, not a mere by-product.

    Same goes for right wing Israel obsessives, too, but these days they are smaller in number.
    Not to say that is never the case but I do think on the Left it usually works as I described it. These people are steeped in an anti American imperialism mindset and Israel (to them) looks like an enduring and unacceptable bastion of it. It looks like a racist state where white people are oppressing brown ones and the oppressors are backed heavily by the Great Satan, the US.
    Yes, that's it. There are many governments that commit worse atrocities, but none of them are such secure allies of the West as that of Israel. The closest would be Saudi Arabia, and to be fair people on the left do talk a lot about Saudi Arabia, albeit not as much as Israel.

    Many people who are not racists suffer from confirmation bias, whether on the left or on the right. Some of those will therefore repeat myths about Israel without initially seeing a connection to anti-Semitism, just as Maxine Peake did. Some will refuse to see that link, even when it's pointed out to them, because they are used to the right crying wolf on many issues.

    Where there is some hope right now is that the swift action against anti-Semitism has happened in the same week as Labour has called for sanctions over the issue of annexation of territory in the West Bank. Owen Jones, for example, has praised the latter. Maybe it will help some people understand what is and is not legitimate criticism of Israel.
    Yep. My rules for western lefties who are not Palestinians. Criticize Israel - in fact that's mandatory - but (i) do not bang on and on about it as if it's the most crucial issue in the world today and (ii) apply the same standards to other oppressive regimes and (iii) do not succumb to conspiracy theories about Jews running the world.

    Owen Jones is imo pretty good on the whole with this subject. Guilty of cutting Corbyn too much slack on occasions but he has usually managed my 1/2/3.
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.

    Its more than 1 %!

    More than 1% of the population have very left wing views, I am sure. But are more than 1% involved in the ludicrous Kremlinology of it all, engaging with po-faced, student union nonsense in the Jacobin, the Canary, Novara Media and so on?

    I suspect most people who are very left wing are sorry Corbyn never became PM and like him more than Starmer. But a lot of them accept that ship has sailed, still want a Labour Government, and in many cases realise that the party probably needs to reach out to the centre more than it did under their man.
    I reckon its nearer to 15-20 %. Certainly double figures.

    I also think that, of that population, they are highly likely to be very involved with "the ludicrous Kremlinology of it all, engaging with po-faced, student union nonsense in the Jacobin, the Canary, Novara Media and so on".

    So, yeah, more than 1 %.
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    and remember - they only need to be lucky once.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    This is truly nuts. White Supremacists do not like Jews full stop, especially Israel, it is the core of white supremacist ideology that Jews are not part of their definition of white.

    On the other hand those on the left are keen to push "Jews are white" to imply Jews are the ultimate cause of "white supremecy", hence simply defending the right of Israel to exist is white supremecy.

    How about not trying to racialise everything?
    Katie Hopkins and ilk. VERY pro Israel. As are many strands of white supremacist "thinking". Especially in the States. And especially where anti-Islam has been ardently embraced. Not all though. There are the "purists" (as you say) for whom white is white, rest are shite.
    Werent Nick Griffin and a former head of the KKK fond of St Jeremy?
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    But WHY do lefties get so obsessed by Israel? It’s a small country quite a long way away. It is fairly pivotal in Middle East politics, but not in ours.

    So, why? One reason might be that it is inhabited by Jews. Therefore the leftwing obsession with Israel is actually an obsession with Jews. Look at Ken Livingstone for an example.

    That suggests anti-Semitism is the root, not a mere by-product.

    Same goes for right wing Israel obsessives, too, but these days they are smaller in number.
    Not to say that's never the case but I think on the Left it usually works as I described it. These people are steeped in an anti American imperialism mindset and Israel (to them) looks like an enduring and unacceptable bastion of it. It looks like a racist state where white people are oppressing brown ones and the oppressors are backed heavily by the Great Satan, the US.
    Yes, anti-Americanism is also a factor, for sure.

    But I have heard too much anti-Semitism, from supposed left wing people, expressed as a dislike of Jews per se (as running the world, being so deviously rich, exploiting non Jews) to believe plain racism is not a factor.

    Distressingly, this mental virus afflicted a close friend of mine.

    He was Labour, quite lefty but sane, until Corbyn got elected, then he was.... radicalised. Very odd. Part of the radicalisation was anti-Semitism, suddenly he was obsessed with the Jews and their terrible doings, Israel was often mentioned but it was not central. The main thing was THE JEWS.

    It was so bad - boring as well as ugly - he was shunned, and his own brother disowned him.

    He now seems to have recovered, I am happy to say, because basically he's a nice, funny man. But it was quite a spectacle.
  • Options
    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
    Is Vincent Kompany coming back and everyone else getting made a few years younger, then?

    Have to say I am surprised Man City are favourites for next year. It's not crazy to imagine them winning it, of course, but right now Liverpool are very significantly superior - they've just won the title with more ganes to spare than anyone else in history, and have lost two Premiership matches in two years.

    Man City have the resources to get people in, and might not have European football to distract them. But they don't just need to improve, they need to improve a LOT and hope Liverpool have a dip.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,942
    geoffw said:

    If this is true then Sedwill is a snake and deserves the boot.

    It's not

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1277266449833263105
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Back, back a .long time ago of course being pro-israel was a Left position. There were, IIRC, quite a few Tories who were pro-Arab, and hence Pro the Palestinians.

    Quite so. Israel was once seen by some lefties as a brave socialist experiment: the kibbutz movement, and so forth. And Israel was politically quite left wing, in its early days.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    J K Rowling delicately gutting that Labour MP in this thread

    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1277263814552100866?s=20
  • Options

    algarkirk said:

    Floater said:

    Jesus - this is a long read but the level of delusion on show here is surreal

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-sacked-labour

    Mr Starmer might have a bit of a job on his hands

    To continue and correct the analogy, Starmer inherited the burning building from an old man carrying accelerant and a box of matches.

    Starmer has put the fire out and is starting to rebuild the foundations. The old man's solicitor threw in a Molatov cocktail earlier this week which Starmer threw back at her.
    Labour always faces the same problem: The proper ideological, anti-democratic, humanity hating left (like this bonkers lot in the article) can never win power or influence without being part of a party with a sane face and distinguished history, and Labour is the only option for this purpose. The Labour party can never permanently prevent the 1% of the population who follow this drivel from trying to run the party. They have, under Foot and Corbyn, for a time succeeded in doing so. Does Starmer have a plan for making it a proper, centrist only party, excluding the totalitarians? Something which the Tories have managed to do with regard to the fascist right.

    Its more than 1 %!

    More than 1% of the population have very left wing views, I am sure. But are more than 1% involved in the ludicrous Kremlinology of it all, engaging with po-faced, student union nonsense in the Jacobin, the Canary, Novara Media and so on?

    I suspect most people who are very left wing are sorry Corbyn never became PM and like him more than Starmer. But a lot of them accept that ship has sailed, still want a Labour Government, and in many cases realise that the party probably needs to reach out to the centre more than it did under their man.
    I reckon its nearer to 15-20 %. Certainly double figures.

    I also think that, of that population, they are highly likely to be very involved with "the ludicrous Kremlinology of it all, engaging with po-faced, student union nonsense in the Jacobin, the Canary, Novara Media and so on".

    So, yeah, more than 1 %.
    You reckon a double figures percentahe of the population are BOTH extremely left wing and get involved with the Kremlinology as played out in tedious detail in the Jacobin article?

    If you were right, these sort of fringe media sites would have a readership/viewership in the millions in the UK, which they just don't.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    This is truly nuts. White Supremacists do not like Jews full stop, especially Israel, it is the core of white supremacist ideology that Jews are not part of their definition of white.

    On the other hand those on the left are keen to push "Jews are white" to imply Jews are the ultimate cause of "white supremecy", hence simply defending the right of Israel to exist is white supremecy.

    How about not trying to racialise everything?
    Katie Hopkins and ilk. VERY pro Israel. As are many strands of white supremacist "thinking". Especially in the States. And especially where anti-Islam has been ardently embraced. Not all though. There are the "purists" (as you say) for whom white is white, rest are shite.
    Werent Nick Griffin and a former head of the KKK fond of St Jeremy?
    It's a total non sequitur (!) but I wouldn't be surprised. Those white supremacy types take some bizarre positions sometimes.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,173
    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    This is truly nuts. White Supremacists do not like Jews full stop, especially Israel, it is the core of white supremacist ideology that Jews are not part of their definition of white.

    On the other hand those on the left are keen to push "Jews are white" to imply Jews are the ultimate cause of "white supremecy", hence simply defending the right of Israel to exist is white supremecy.

    How about not trying to racialise everything?
    Katie Hopkins and ilk. VERY pro Israel. As are many strands of white supremacist "thinking". Especially in the States. And especially where anti-Islam has been ardently embraced. Not all though. There are the "purists" (as you say) for whom white is white, rest are shite.
    Werent Nick Griffin and a former head of the KKK fond of St Jeremy?
    Not that I would ever want to defend Jeremy Corbyn, however I think a citation would be helpful here.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    This is truly nuts. White Supremacists do not like Jews full stop, especially Israel, it is the core of white supremacist ideology that Jews are not part of their definition of white.

    On the other hand those on the left are keen to push "Jews are white" to imply Jews are the ultimate cause of "white supremecy", hence simply defending the right of Israel to exist is white supremecy.

    How about not trying to racialise everything?
    Katie Hopkins and ilk. VERY pro Israel. As are many strands of white supremacist "thinking". Especially in the States. And especially where anti-Islam has been ardently embraced. Not all though. There are the "purists" (as you say) for whom white is white, rest are shite.
    Werent Nick Griffin and a former head of the KKK fond of St Jeremy?
    Not that I would ever want to defend Jeremy Corbyn, however I think a citation would be helpful here.
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/04/nick-griffin-declares-his-support-jeremy-corbyn
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    Story concerning the paper I posted on the previous thread.

    Inside a UCSF-led quest to exploit the coronavirus' weak spots
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/inside-a-ucsf-led-quest-to-exploit-the-coronavirus-weak-spots/
    ... Looking closer and performing more tests, the scientists began to get excited because the virus was doing something unexpected.

    Normally, the way a virus spreads itself is by turning an infected cell into a virus factory. The cell fills with virus copies like a water balloon, finally bursting and releasing the virus particles. But the filopodia seemed to show that the virus has devised an additional method for promoting infection: After copying itself within the host cell — but before the cell bursts — the virus exits through filopodia that tunnel out from the infected cell and punch a hole in a nearby uninfected cell, allowing the virus to swim from one cell to another.

    Similar filopodia have been detected in other viruses, like smallpox, but Krogan said they’ve never been seen to this extent. Tests and electron microscope photos showed that these filopodia were packed with copies of the coronavirus as well as Casein Kinase II. The photos — captured by Elizabeth Fischer, chief of the microscopy unit at Rocky Mountain Laboratories, and scientists at the University of Freiburg — revealed that the virus was “budding” out from the filopodia, and, incredibly, some of the filopodia could even branch like trees, allowing a single strand to punch holes in two cells at once.

    “It’s so biologically revealing,” Krogan said of the photos, calling them “the most fascinating and awful thing I’ve ever seen.”...
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,173


    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    This is truly nuts. White Supremacists do not like Jews full stop, especially Israel, it is the core of white supremacist ideology that Jews are not part of their definition of white.

    On the other hand those on the left are keen to push "Jews are white" to imply Jews are the ultimate cause of "white supremecy", hence simply defending the right of Israel to exist is white supremecy.

    How about not trying to racialise everything?
    Katie Hopkins and ilk. VERY pro Israel. As are many strands of white supremacist "thinking". Especially in the States. And especially where anti-Islam has been ardently embraced. Not all though. There are the "purists" (as you say) for whom white is white, rest are shite.
    Werent Nick Griffin and a former head of the KKK fond of St Jeremy?
    Not that I would ever want to defend Jeremy Corbyn, however I think a citation would be helpful here.
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/04/nick-griffin-declares-his-support-jeremy-corbyn
    Thanks. With friends like that....
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited June 2020
    Today I learned: Black Lives Matter got into major trouble the last time around, and basically self-destructed: because of anti-Semitism.

    It's a feature not a bug. This is from 2016

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/11/black-lives-matters-movement-palestine-platform-israel-critics
  • Options
    kicorsekicorse Posts: 431
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    J K Rowling delicately gutting that Labour MP in this thread

    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1277263814552100866?s=20

    "Hate" is obviously way too strong, and he was right to apologise, but JK Rowling does come across as viewing the issue to be much simpler than it is. She could have found space in nine tweets to acknowledge that discrimination against transgender people is a serious issue (or for that matter that the proportion of domestic abuse victims who are male is far from negligible), and that this discrimination often turns to hatred and even violence.

    There's no smoking gun, but she has consistently come across as intolerant on the issue. Maybe she can be excused this due to her own experiences. Nevertheless, considering the profile she has, we shouldn't blame those with similarly terrible experiences who speak out against her.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Nigelb said:

    Story concerning the paper I posted on the previous thread.

    Inside a UCSF-led quest to exploit the coronavirus' weak spots
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/inside-a-ucsf-led-quest-to-exploit-the-coronavirus-weak-spots/
    ... Looking closer and performing more tests, the scientists began to get excited because the virus was doing something unexpected.

    Normally, the way a virus spreads itself is by turning an infected cell into a virus factory. The cell fills with virus copies like a water balloon, finally bursting and releasing the virus particles. But the filopodia seemed to show that the virus has devised an additional method for promoting infection: After copying itself within the host cell — but before the cell bursts — the virus exits through filopodia that tunnel out from the infected cell and punch a hole in a nearby uninfected cell, allowing the virus to swim from one cell to another.

    Similar filopodia have been detected in other viruses, like smallpox, but Krogan said they’ve never been seen to this extent. Tests and electron microscope photos showed that these filopodia were packed with copies of the coronavirus as well as Casein Kinase II. The photos — captured by Elizabeth Fischer, chief of the microscopy unit at Rocky Mountain Laboratories, and scientists at the University of Freiburg — revealed that the virus was “budding” out from the filopodia, and, incredibly, some of the filopodia could even branch like trees, allowing a single strand to punch holes in two cells at once.

    “It’s so biologically revealing,” Krogan said of the photos, calling them “the most fascinating and awful thing I’ve ever seen.”...

    I began reading this comment with an air of hopefulness....
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    England Regional Case data -

    image
    image
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    Back, back a .long time ago of course being pro-israel was a Left position. There were, IIRC, quite a few Tories who were pro-Arab, and hence Pro the Palestinians.

    That's right. Now pro-Israel is NOT a left position and the Jewish vote for Labour has declined dramatically. I guess there must be some causation there.

    Jewish people mainly vote Tory now, I believe - something which did not start with Jeremy Corbyn. Ed Miliband had a problem in this area despite being Jewish himself.
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913

    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
    Is Vincent Kompany coming back and everyone else getting made a few years younger, then?

    Have to say I am surprised Man City are favourites for next year. It's not crazy to imagine them winning it, of course, but right now Liverpool are very significantly superior - they've just won the title with more ganes to spare than anyone else in history, and have lost two Premiership matches in two years.

    Man City have the resources to get people in, and might not have European football to distract them. But they don't just need to improve, they need to improve a LOT and hope Liverpool have a dip.

    People were saying exactly the same about City two years ago when they were breaking all the records. Nobody could see them being beaten ever again. They went on to win all 4 domestic trophies the next year.

    Liverpool have one title and won it very comfortably. I really don't see there is much difference between the 2 but all the hype is currently about Liverpool.

  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    kicorse said:

    LadyG said:

    J K Rowling delicately gutting that Labour MP in this thread

    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1277263814552100866?s=20

    "Hate" is obviously way too strong, and he was right to apologise, but JK Rowling does come across as viewing the issue to be much simpler than it is. She could have found space in nine tweets to acknowledge that discrimination against transgender people is a serious issue (or for that matter that the proportion of domestic abuse victims who are male is far from negligible), and that this discrimination often turns to hatred and even violence.

    There's no smoking gun, but she has consistently come across as intolerant on the issue. Maybe she can be excused this due to her own experiences. Nevertheless, considering the profile she has, we shouldn't blame those with similarly terrible experiences who speak out against her.
    I confess I don't know the nuances of the trans-TERF debate, even though I do try. I feel like an American realy trying to understand cricket.

    I therefore don't feel confident enough to express a forthright opinion. I merely observe that is is a very vicious battle
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,609
    "Senators unite to block Pauline Hanson's 'all lives matter' motion

    One conservative coalition senator, Jim Molan, walks out rather than joining colleagues in preventing discussion"

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/senators-unite-to-block-pauline-hansons-all-lives-matter-motion
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
    Is Vincent Kompany coming back and everyone else getting made a few years younger, then?

    Have to say I am surprised Man City are favourites for next year. It's not crazy to imagine them winning it, of course, but right now Liverpool are very significantly superior - they've just won the title with more ganes to spare than anyone else in history, and have lost two Premiership matches in two years.

    Man City have the resources to get people in, and might not have European football to distract them. But they don't just need to improve, they need to improve a LOT and hope Liverpool have a dip.

    People were saying exactly the same about City two years ago when they were breaking all the records. Nobody could see them being beaten ever again. They went on to win all 4 domestic trophies the next year.

    Liverpool have one title and won it very comfortably. I really don't see there is much difference between the 2 but all the hype is currently about Liverpool.

    Guardiola's a chequebook manager.

    His net spend at City is circa £431 million.

    In a similar time frame Klopp's net spend is less than £70 million.

    Just remember Guardiola's spent more on full backs than Klopp has on his defence.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    Leicester has been mentioned a few times today - in terms of spikes, cases and maybe even a re-imposed lockdown.

    Pillar 1 data, as before:

    image
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,609
    Floater said:

    Oh, speaking of that mural.

    https://twitter.com/icecube/status/1269277079914209282

    Twitter will delete your account for saying "Men aren't women tho", or hide tweets in case they "cause offense", but is totally fine with this.

    This for me rings enormous alarm bells.

    Today you can lose your job for saying "white lives matter"

    and get promoted for saying "white lives don't matter"

    Strange old world...........
    We need a new political movement that will oppose this nonsense, one that people on the non-woke left, centre and right can support.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Andy_JS said:

    "Senators unite to block Pauline Hanson's 'all lives matter' motion

    One conservative coalition senator, Jim Molan, walks out rather than joining colleagues in preventing discussion"

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/senators-unite-to-block-pauline-hansons-all-lives-matter-motion

    'Australian senators have overwhelmingly united to block Pauline Hanson’s attempt to put forward an inflammatory “all lives matter” motion'

    'Inflammatory', indeed. I'm not sure that word means what the Guardian thinks or wants it to mean.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Andy_JS said:

    Floater said:

    Oh, speaking of that mural.

    https://twitter.com/icecube/status/1269277079914209282

    Twitter will delete your account for saying "Men aren't women tho", or hide tweets in case they "cause offense", but is totally fine with this.

    This for me rings enormous alarm bells.

    Today you can lose your job for saying "white lives matter"

    and get promoted for saying "white lives don't matter"

    Strange old world...........
    We need a new political movement that will oppose this nonsense, one that people on the non-woke left, centre and right can support.
    'Common Sense Matters'?
  • Options
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,609
    "The rise of coercive progressivism
    Stephen Daisley

    What has followed the killing of George Floyd did not begin with the death of a man under the knee of a police officer. The rioting and the statue-toppling, the shunnings and the firings, the institutional genuflections and the gleeful marching through newly conquered territory are the fruits of ideas and impulses long in germination. Critics interpret these events as the work of either a political movement or a new religion, but it is more accurate to say that it is both. A secular millenarianism is trying to tear down the liberal order and erect in its place a new order that we might call coercive progressivism. It is an ideological project to enforce a progressive moral code through law, social convention and brute force, but the morality itself emerges from and satisfies a post-Christian search for meaning."

    (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-rise-of-coercive-progressivism
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Back, back a .long time ago of course being pro-israel was a Left position. There were, IIRC, quite a few Tories who were pro-Arab, and hence Pro the Palestinians.

    That's right. Now pro-Israel is NOT a left position and the Jewish vote for Labour has declined dramatically. I guess there must be some causation there.

    Jewish people mainly vote Tory now, I believe - something which did not start with Jeremy Corbyn. Ed Miliband had a problem in this area despite being Jewish himself.
    The current issue with anti-semitism on the left didn't start with Corbyn.

    A particular red flag in the Jewish community was an aggressive campaign waged by some in the Labour party to eliminate the subsidy for security guards, provided by the government, for synagogues, Jewish schools and Jewish graveyards.

    The problem was, apparently, that the money was "divisive" and prosecutions of those caught were "excessive" and not "balanced against community needs"
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    edited June 2020

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
    Is Vincent Kompany coming back and everyone else getting made a few years younger, then?

    Have to say I am surprised Man City are favourites for next year. It's not crazy to imagine them winning it, of course, but right now Liverpool are very significantly superior - they've just won the title with more ganes to spare than anyone else in history, and have lost two Premiership matches in two years.

    Man City have the resources to get people in, and might not have European football to distract them. But they don't just need to improve, they need to improve a LOT and hope Liverpool have a dip.

    People were saying exactly the same about City two years ago when they were breaking all the records. Nobody could see them being beaten ever again. They went on to win all 4 domestic trophies the next year.

    Liverpool have one title and won it very comfortably. I really don't see there is much difference between the 2 but all the hype is currently about Liverpool.

    Guardiola's a chequebook manager.

    His net spend at City is circa £431 million.

    In a similar time frame Klopp's net spend is less than £70 million.

    Just remember Guardiola's spent more on full backs than Klopp has on his defence.
    We weren't discussing the price of team we were discussing the quality and which one is likely to win the PL next season.

    If you believe Pep is just a cheque book manager then I would respectfully suggest you know bugger all about football
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    I think there's a language problem, namely that antisemitism is not understood to be a subcategory of racism but something separate. So you can happily be antisemitic and anti-racist at the same time.

    There is more than a grain of truth in this. Antisemitism stands apart in certain ways. It's to do with skin colour (Jews are white) and with the lack of perceived oppression. Also the complex matter of Israel.

    For some "anti-racists" on the Left, Israel is an obsession and this leads them into antisemitism. By contrast for some white supremacist types on the Right, Israel is also an obsession but is close to a love object.

    So you have anti-racists on the Left being racist because they hate Israel and hardcore racists on the Right loving Israel because they are racists.
    But WHY do lefties get so obsessed by Israel? It’s a small country quite a long way away. It is fairly pivotal in Middle East politics, but not in ours.

    So, why? One reason might be that it is inhabited by Jews. Therefore the leftwing obsession with Israel is actually an obsession with Jews. Look at Ken Livingstone for an example.

    That suggests anti-Semitism is the root, not a mere by-product.

    Same goes for right wing Israel obsessives, too, but these days they are smaller in number.
    Not to say that's never the case but I think on the Left it usually works as I described it. These people are steeped in an anti American imperialism mindset and Israel (to them) looks like an enduring and unacceptable bastion of it. It looks like a racist state where white people are oppressing brown ones and the oppressors are backed heavily by the Great Satan, the US.
    Yes, anti-Americanism is also a factor, for sure.

    But I have heard too much anti-Semitism, from supposed left wing people, expressed as a dislike of Jews per se (as running the world, being so deviously rich, exploiting non Jews) to believe plain racism is not a factor.

    Distressingly, this mental virus afflicted a close friend of mine.

    He was Labour, quite lefty but sane, until Corbyn got elected, then he was.... radicalised. Very odd. Part of the radicalisation was anti-Semitism, suddenly he was obsessed with the Jews and their terrible doings, Israel was often mentioned but it was not central. The main thing was THE JEWS.

    It was so bad - boring as well as ugly - he was shunned, and his own brother disowned him.

    He now seems to have recovered, I am happy to say, because basically he's a nice, funny man. But it was quite a spectacle.
    This is the sort of visceral antisemitism we know has nothing to do with Israel since it has existed since forever. The sort that sees Jews as venal exploiters and parasites, as ultimately less than human. I view this as a mental illness on a par with white supremacy. I don't believe it is especially prevalent on the left but the left should be impeccable on anti-racism - so it must be zero tolerance for this or anything that smells remotely like it.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    Today I learned: Black Lives Matter got into major trouble the last time around, and basically self-destructed: because of anti-Semitism.

    It's a feature not a bug. This is from 2016

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/11/black-lives-matters-movement-palestine-platform-israel-critics

    Very "Hope Not Hate"... who can disagree with the name, yet scratch the surface and...

    Black pawns being sent into battle
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Andy_JS said:

    "The rise of coercive progressivism
    Stephen Daisley

    What has followed the killing of George Floyd did not begin with the death of a man under the knee of a police officer. The rioting and the statue-toppling, the shunnings and the firings, the institutional genuflections and the gleeful marching through newly conquered territory are the fruits of ideas and impulses long in germination. Critics interpret these events as the work of either a political movement or a new religion, but it is more accurate to say that it is both. A secular millenarianism is trying to tear down the liberal order and erect in its place a new order that we might call coercive progressivism. It is an ideological project to enforce a progressive moral code through law, social convention and brute force, but the morality itself emerges from and satisfies a post-Christian search for meaning."

    (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-rise-of-coercive-progressivism

    Finely written, but also chilling:

    'But where Christianity offers salvation, sin is eternal in this religion and the hope of deliverance absent. There is only the cross, no resurrection.'
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,432
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    LOL. What will their reaction be, when it finally dawns on them that Gove and Cummings have been planning this for years, and the radical policy agenda is coming down the line like a steam train heading straight for Whitehall?
    One one level, G+C have been planning the power-grab for years.

    But based on their record together at Education, we can expect pretty good identification of things that don't work well, fairly poor diagnosis of the underlying causes and an utter omnishambles of actually making things better.

    But it will never, ever be their fault.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    Ed Davey has 57% of nominations and is now clear favourite on Betfair.


  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    Back, back a .long time ago of course being pro-israel was a Left position. There were, IIRC, quite a few Tories who were pro-Arab, and hence Pro the Palestinians.

    That's right. Now pro-Israel is NOT a left position and the Jewish vote for Labour has declined dramatically. I guess there must be some causation there.

    Jewish people mainly vote Tory now, I believe - something which did not start with Jeremy Corbyn. Ed Miliband had a problem in this area despite being Jewish himself.
    The current issue with anti-semitism on the left didn't start with Corbyn.

    A particular red flag in the Jewish community was an aggressive campaign waged by some in the Labour party to eliminate the subsidy for security guards, provided by the government, for synagogues, Jewish schools and Jewish graveyards.

    The problem was, apparently, that the money was "divisive" and prosecutions of those caught were "excessive" and not "balanced against community needs"
    OK. But my post to which are replying is not about antisemitism on the Left but about (i) the Left no longer being pro Israel and (ii) the decline in the Jewish vote for Labour - and postulating a degree of causation. So don't take this in a "down your throat" kind of way (since I don't mean it like that) but what you have done here is exactly what I was saying there is such a danger of. You have conflated "anti-Israel" with "antisemitism" and what is more - and this is key - you have done so on autopilot.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    LOL. What will their reaction be, when it finally dawns on them that Gove and Cummings have been planning this for years, and the radical policy agenda is coming down the line like a steam train heading straight for Whitehall?
    One one level, G+C have been planning the power-grab for years.

    But based on their record together at Education, we can expect pretty good identification of things that don't work well, fairly poor diagnosis of the underlying causes and an utter omnishambles of actually making things better.

    But it will never, ever be their fault.
    Based on their record at education in the minds of teachers and civil servants, or in the minds of parents, pupils and the independent PISA rankings?
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Andy_JS said:

    "The rise of coercive progressivism
    Stephen Daisley

    What has followed the killing of George Floyd did not begin with the death of a man under the knee of a police officer. The rioting and the statue-toppling, the shunnings and the firings, the institutional genuflections and the gleeful marching through newly conquered territory are the fruits of ideas and impulses long in germination. Critics interpret these events as the work of either a political movement or a new religion, but it is more accurate to say that it is both. A secular millenarianism is trying to tear down the liberal order and erect in its place a new order that we might call coercive progressivism. It is an ideological project to enforce a progressive moral code through law, social convention and brute force, but the morality itself emerges from and satisfies a post-Christian search for meaning."

    (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-rise-of-coercive-progressivism

    Finely written, but also chilling:

    'But where Christianity offers salvation, sin is eternal in this religion and the hope of deliverance absent. There is only the cross, no resurrection.'
    That's a brilliant piece, and yes, quite depressing.

    It also contains this amazing revelation: miracles and baptisms are taking place at the site where George Floyd died

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/baptisms-miracles-taking-place-in-revival-at-site-where-george-floyd-died-christian-groups-says.html

    I think the argument as to whether the WokeFrenzy is religious or not, has just been settled. It is a post-faith faith.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    LOL. What will their reaction be, when it finally dawns on them that Gove and Cummings have been planning this for years, and the radical policy agenda is coming down the line like a steam train heading straight for Whitehall?
    One one level, G+C have been planning the power-grab for years.

    But based on their record together at Education, we can expect pretty good identification of things that don't work well, fairly poor diagnosis of the underlying causes and an utter omnishambles of actually making things better.

    But it will never, ever be their fault.
    They can blame the civil service for poor implementation though. Hence more changes required.

    That's the genius of the plan....
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
    Is Vincent Kompany coming back and everyone else getting made a few years younger, then?

    Have to say I am surprised Man City are favourites for next year. It's not crazy to imagine them winning it, of course, but right now Liverpool are very significantly superior - they've just won the title with more ganes to spare than anyone else in history, and have lost two Premiership matches in two years.

    Man City have the resources to get people in, and might not have European football to distract them. But they don't just need to improve, they need to improve a LOT and hope Liverpool have a dip.

    People were saying exactly the same about City two years ago when they were breaking all the records. Nobody could see them being beaten ever again. They went on to win all 4 domestic trophies the next year.

    Liverpool have one title and won it very comfortably. I really don't see there is much difference between the 2 but all the hype is currently about Liverpool.

    Guardiola's a chequebook manager.

    His net spend at City is circa £431 million.

    In a similar time frame Klopp's net spend is less than £70 million.

    Just remember Guardiola's spent more on full backs than Klopp has on his defence.
    We weren't discussing the price of team we were discussing the quality and which one is likely to win the PL next season.

    If you believe Pep is just a cheque book manager then I would respectfully suggest you know bugger all about football
    If Guardiola wants to be spoken in the same category as Klopp then he should go manage Arsenal or Everton and turn them into World, European, and English champions within five years on a net spend of less than £100 million.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,106

    Andy_JS said:

    "The rise of coercive progressivism
    Stephen Daisley

    What has followed the killing of George Floyd did not begin with the death of a man under the knee of a police officer. The rioting and the statue-toppling, the shunnings and the firings, the institutional genuflections and the gleeful marching through newly conquered territory are the fruits of ideas and impulses long in germination. Critics interpret these events as the work of either a political movement or a new religion, but it is more accurate to say that it is both. A secular millenarianism is trying to tear down the liberal order and erect in its place a new order that we might call coercive progressivism. It is an ideological project to enforce a progressive moral code through law, social convention and brute force, but the morality itself emerges from and satisfies a post-Christian search for meaning."

    (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-rise-of-coercive-progressivism

    Finely written, but also chilling:

    'But where Christianity offers salvation, sin is eternal in this religion and the hope of deliverance absent. There is only the cross, no resurrection.'
    What a load of pseudo-intellectual masturbation. If people put half as much thought into what has prompted Black Lives Matter and how to rid the world of the kind of prejudice that disfigures and limits people's life chances as they do into coming up with reasons why actually we can continue to ignore it then perhaps we'd make some progress.
    There are none so blind as will not see.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    edited June 2020
    Latest data
    London looks worrying. R=1.21. This is a not a small number effect. Cases average 20 a day without a concentration in one place.


  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Barnesian said:

    Latest data
    London looks worrying. R=1.21. This is a not a small number effect. Cases average 20 a day with out a concentration in one place.


    That's bad, but unsurprising. London abandoned lockdown weeks ago
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Worldwide the virus is intensifying its grip.

    20,000 new cases in India today. There was a time when we all thought India was going to escape this. Not so

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    Scott_xP said:
    Piers Morgan?
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited June 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    "The rise of coercive progressivism
    Stephen Daisley

    What has followed the killing of George Floyd did not begin with the death of a man under the knee of a police officer. The rioting and the statue-toppling, the shunnings and the firings, the institutional genuflections and the gleeful marching through newly conquered territory are the fruits of ideas and impulses long in germination. Critics interpret these events as the work of either a political movement or a new religion, but it is more accurate to say that it is both. A secular millenarianism is trying to tear down the liberal order and erect in its place a new order that we might call coercive progressivism. It is an ideological project to enforce a progressive moral code through law, social convention and brute force, but the morality itself emerges from and satisfies a post-Christian search for meaning."

    (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-rise-of-coercive-progressivism

    Finely written, but also chilling:

    'But where Christianity offers salvation, sin is eternal in this religion and the hope of deliverance absent. There is only the cross, no resurrection.'
    What a load of pseudo-intellectual masturbation. If people put half as much thought into what has prompted Black Lives Matter and how to rid the world of the kind of prejudice that disfigures and limits people's life chances as they do into coming up with reasons why actually we can continue to ignore it then perhaps we'd make some progress.
    There are none so blind as will not see.
    It does evade the underlying reasons for the problems, but it also fails to notice, or deliberately ignores, that the right could equally be described as being seized by its own abrasive and sometimes coercive movement of identity at the moment.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited June 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    "The rise of coercive progressivism
    Stephen Daisley

    What has followed the killing of George Floyd did not begin with the death of a man under the knee of a police officer. The rioting and the statue-toppling, the shunnings and the firings, the institutional genuflections and the gleeful marching through newly conquered territory are the fruits of ideas and impulses long in germination. Critics interpret these events as the work of either a political movement or a new religion, but it is more accurate to say that it is both. A secular millenarianism is trying to tear down the liberal order and erect in its place a new order that we might call coercive progressivism. It is an ideological project to enforce a progressive moral code through law, social convention and brute force, but the morality itself emerges from and satisfies a post-Christian search for meaning."

    (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-rise-of-coercive-progressivism

    This sounds like pseudy wankery of the first order.

    Should I post some critical race theory? I really think I should.

    Coming soon ...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Barnesian said:

    Latest data
    London looks worrying. R=1.21. This is a not a small number effect. Cases average 20 a day without a concentration in one place.


    With only 20 cases this is surely extremely sensitive to one or two additional cases?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,377
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Back, back a .long time ago of course being pro-israel was a Left position. There were, IIRC, quite a few Tories who were pro-Arab, and hence Pro the Palestinians.

    That's right. Now pro-Israel is NOT a left position and the Jewish vote for Labour has declined dramatically. I guess there must be some causation there.

    Jewish people mainly vote Tory now, I believe - something which did not start with Jeremy Corbyn. Ed Miliband had a problem in this area despite being Jewish himself.
    The current issue with anti-semitism on the left didn't start with Corbyn.

    A particular red flag in the Jewish community was an aggressive campaign waged by some in the Labour party to eliminate the subsidy for security guards, provided by the government, for synagogues, Jewish schools and Jewish graveyards.

    The problem was, apparently, that the money was "divisive" and prosecutions of those caught were "excessive" and not "balanced against community needs"
    OK. But my post to which are replying is not about antisemitism on the Left but about (i) the Left no longer being pro Israel and (ii) the decline in the Jewish vote for Labour - and postulating a degree of causation. So don't take this in a "down your throat" kind of way (since I don't mean it like that) but what you have done here is exactly what I was saying there is such a danger of. You have conflated "anti-Israel" with "antisemitism" and what is more - and this is key - you have done so on autopilot.
    You were talking about why Jewish people stopped voting Labour. One of the reasons was the above.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    LOL. What will their reaction be, when it finally dawns on them that Gove and Cummings have been planning this for years, and the radical policy agenda is coming down the line like a steam train heading straight for Whitehall?
    One one level, G+C have been planning the power-grab for years.

    But based on their record together at Education, we can expect pretty good identification of things that don't work well, fairly poor diagnosis of the underlying causes and an utter omnishambles of actually making things better.

    But it will never, ever be their fault.
    They can blame the civil service for poor implementation though. Hence more changes required.

    That's the genius of the plan....
    The new Boris & Cummings cock-up might be spaffing half a billion quid on the wrong sort of satellites, according to the space boffins. The issue seems to be Oneweb makes satellites for internet services (hence the name, I suppose) and not for satnavs.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854
    Scott_xP said:
    This is how Johnson operates and did when he was Mayor of London. Surround himself with loyal acolytes who will bask in the glow of his favour.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,942

    The new Boris & Cummings cock-up might be spaffing half a billion quid on the wrong sort of satellites, according to the space boffins. The issue seems to be Oneweb makes satellites for internet services (hence the name, I suppose) and not for satnavs.

    https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/1276583134675570689
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Estimations of a 40% turnout for round II of French municipal elections taking place today

    Voting hours closed at 6pm in majority of places with Paris, Marseille, Bordeaux, Nantes, Toulouse, Lille, Cannes, Montpellier, Nice and Grenoble voting until 8 pm
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,080


    People "on the right", yes. And, as you say it is mostly just reactionary to the left's obsession.

    Phew, so it's still the left's faults reely.
    All's right with the world.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854
    Nearly evening all :)

    So we are supposed to be building - the era of the major capital project is upon us - and from where I sit in lowland East London, the future is flats, flats and more flats.

    I'm thinking about all these flats and all the people in them, whether owners or renters, and thinking how well they will get to know their new accommodation if we have to lockdown once again.

    Perhaps in the not-too-distant the notion of living in a little box flat in a huge clock with no external space to call your own will go the same way as the idea of travelling for 4 hours on trains and tubes to go to and from an office.

    I can see the attraction of rural life and life well away from the capital.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,942

    And look how they did...

    We will look back on that as a Golden Age...
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Reunion results coming from La Reunion

    Former Socialist minister Ericka Bareigts wins in Saint-Denis (147k inhabitants) holding it for the Left againt the regional president Didier Robert. She polled 58.74%

    Left wing MP Huguette Bello (who sits in the Gauche démocrate et républicaine group at the National Assembly) re-takes Saint Paul (103k inhabitants) ousting the Les Republicains incumbent
    She polled around 60%.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,942
    stodge said:

    This is how Johnson operates and did when he was Mayor of London. Surround himself with loyal acolytes who will bask in the glow of his favour.

    As noted on a previous thread, the end, when it comes, will be swift and brutal.

    Not just BoZo, but the entire coterie, will crash.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,432
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    LOL. What will their reaction be, when it finally dawns on them that Gove and Cummings have been planning this for years, and the radical policy agenda is coming down the line like a steam train heading straight for Whitehall?
    One one level, G+C have been planning the power-grab for years.

    But based on their record together at Education, we can expect pretty good identification of things that don't work well, fairly poor diagnosis of the underlying causes and an utter omnishambles of actually making things better.

    But it will never, ever be their fault.
    Based on their record at education in the minds of teachers and civil servants, or in the minds of parents, pupils and the independent PISA rankings?
    OK, specific example.

    This morning, there was conversation here lamenting the way that all teenagers a forced into an academic curriculum for too long, not allowing them to develop useful vocational skills.

    That happened because of changes to school accountability in the Gove years. Schools are under huge pressure to get as many pupils as possible through the "EBacc", which needs 7 or 8 GCSE slots. They also made each GCSE bigger, so 8 GCSEs is pretty much a full timetable. So it doesn't matter if your kid has a talent for design, or food, or anything else vocational; schools pretty much can't offer it any more.

    Now some of this came from a sensible place. Before 2010, some schools had started to take the mickey, using vocational courses as an easy way to clock up GCSE-equivalent passes. But the solution created a whole lot of other problems.

    More generally, some free schools and academies are great- but others have been disasters (look up Perry Beeches Trust).

    The simplest explanation is that G+C are better at destruction than creation because their backgrounds don't encourage them to think more than two steps ahead.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited June 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    "The rise of coercive progressivism
    Stephen Daisley

    What has followed the killing of George Floyd did not begin with the death of a man under the knee of a police officer. The rioting and the statue-toppling, the shunnings and the firings, the institutional genuflections and the gleeful marching through newly conquered territory are the fruits of ideas and impulses long in germination. Critics interpret these events as the work of either a political movement or a new religion, but it is more accurate to say that it is both. A secular millenarianism is trying to tear down the liberal order and erect in its place a new order that we might call coercive progressivism. It is an ideological project to enforce a progressive moral code through law, social convention and brute force, but the morality itself emerges from and satisfies a post-Christian search for meaning."

    (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-rise-of-coercive-progressivism

    Finely written, but also chilling:

    'But where Christianity offers salvation, sin is eternal in this religion and the hope of deliverance absent. There is only the cross, no resurrection.'
    What a load of pseudo-intellectual masturbation. If people put half as much thought into what has prompted Black Lives Matter and how to rid the world of the kind of prejudice that disfigures and limits people's life chances as they do into coming up with reasons why actually we can continue to ignore it then perhaps we'd make some progress.
    There are none so blind as will not see.
    Yep. It's a dud. When it comes to the issue of anti-black racism the effort which goes into deflecting and obscuring and lurid extrapolation is quite something. It's as if there is an aversion to saying what is truly on the mind - Blacks are hardly discriminated against at all. It's one big whinge. They need to shape up and stop playing the victim card - and so instead we get the invention of a whole new imaginary monolithic monster (!) called the Woke which seeks to take away all that we hold dear and thus must be fought at all costs (a fight which conveniently requires much focus and means doing sweet FA about racism).
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    geoffw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Sedwill's position was untenable when it was discovered he was trying to agree a two-year Brexit extension with Brussels - whilst Boris was in hospital with Covid.

    Cummins discovered this - and closed it down. Now we leave on 31st December 2020.

    The peeved reaction was the release of the long known about story of Cummins' trip to Durham....
    If this is true then Sedwill is a snake and deserves the boot.
    medal more like
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited June 2020


    People "on the right", yes. And, as you say it is mostly just reactionary to the left's obsession.

    Phew, so it's still the left's faults reely.
    All's right with the world.
    No, unlike you I don't think anyone is at fault for being pro-Israel. Merely explaining that right-wing pro-Israel =/= white supremacist as the jew-haters on the left would like to claim.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,927

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    MikeL said:

    Next season's PL odds are interesting:

    Man City 2.16
    Liverpool 2.66
    Man Utd 16
    Chelsea 17

    (Spurs and Arsenal not yet listed)

    So despite Liverpool losing just two games in two seasons and Man City being 23 points behind this season, Man City are favourites!

    Maybe reflects fact Man City expected to spend more this summer, though that may depend on CAS. CAS could go either way so seems unpredictable.

    Or perhaps punters are looking at the record of the 2 clubs over the past 5 seasons rather than 1.
    Is Vincent Kompany coming back and everyone else getting made a few years younger, then?

    Have to say I am surprised Man City are favourites for next year. It's not crazy to imagine them winning it, of course, but right now Liverpool are very significantly superior - they've just won the title with more ganes to spare than anyone else in history, and have lost two Premiership matches in two years.

    Man City have the resources to get people in, and might not have European football to distract them. But they don't just need to improve, they need to improve a LOT and hope Liverpool have a dip.

    People were saying exactly the same about City two years ago when they were breaking all the records. Nobody could see them being beaten ever again. They went on to win all 4 domestic trophies the next year.

    Liverpool have one title and won it very comfortably. I really don't see there is much difference between the 2 but all the hype is currently about Liverpool.

    Guardiola's a chequebook manager.

    His net spend at City is circa £431 million.

    In a similar time frame Klopp's net spend is less than £70 million.

    Just remember Guardiola's spent more on full backs than Klopp has on his defence.
    We weren't discussing the price of team we were discussing the quality and which one is likely to win the PL next season.

    If you believe Pep is just a cheque book manager then I would respectfully suggest you know bugger all about football
    If Guardiola wants to be spoken in the same category as Klopp then he should go manage Arsenal or Everton and turn them into World, European, and English champions within five years on a net spend of less than £100 million.
    Can't both be great coaches? They were last season when the roles were reversed

    Guardiola did coach a team to success at a low level, by the way, reinventing their style of play as he did so. So it isn't fair to call him a chequebook manager.

    https://www.goal.com/story/pepguardiola/index.html

    Also Liverpool were quite fortunate to be able to sell Coutinho for the amount they did, but there is no doubt Klopp is a world class coach and Liverpool have been very astute in the transfer market. The previous clubs of the players that have walked the League and won the CL is amazing.



This discussion has been closed.