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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It appears Brexit and the handling of Covid-19 by the Scottish

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited July 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It appears Brexit and the handling of Covid-19 by the Scottish & Westminster governments is pushing Scotland inexorably towards independence

Many people who used to oppose Scottish independence have switched to the “yes” camp, turning a 55%-45% vote against leaving the UK in the 2014 referendum into a 54%-46% lead for the nationalists today https://t.co/Cqd5C9bkNX pic.twitter.com/o9RmMZ7vny

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,598
    First ...
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Dark days for the union, for sure.

    But these are dark days for everyone. We are heading into an unprecedented economic shitshow. Any polling, on any cause, should be treated with great skepticism.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,246
    NHS England Hospital numbers out:

    Headline - 18
    7 days - 12
    Yesterday - 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision. Last 5 days included for completeness.

    image
    image
    image
    image
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,246
    NHS England Regional Numbers - last 10 days

    image
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @Gardenwalker FPT

    Once again, the mistake is made conflating government roles

    There is a clear role for social housing (I do have an issue with lifetime tenancies and would prefer 10 year leases subject to renewal).

    However that doesn’t mean the government should build housing

    It would do better to commission private developers to build social housing - government should fund not execute
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited July 2020
    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    No party has made a positive case for the Union for a very long time.

    A strong case can be made, but not by appealing to old tropes and tired fear-mongering.

    We clearly need a vision for a new Union.
    One with national projects that strengthen the potential of the people and shares prosperity more widely.

    The devolution settlement is highly unstable. It is effectively a machine for creating further separatism. The sooner this is understood, the better.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    Charles said:

    @Gardenwalker FPT

    Once again, the mistake is made conflating government roles

    There is a clear role for social housing (I do have an issue with lifetime tenancies and would prefer 10 year leases subject to renewal).

    However that doesn’t mean the government should build housing

    It would do better to commission private developers to build social housing - government should fund not execute

    Sure, sure. I agree with you. But it needs to be a positive and proactive policy, not a grudge subsidy.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,115
    Carnyx said:

    First ...

    More than Max Verstappen is going to be.

    Still, at least he hasn't crashed.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    Max Verstappen's feck ups always amuse me.

    I have missed you F1.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    LadyG said:

    Dark days for the union, for sure.

    But these are dark days for everyone. We are heading into an unprecedented economic shitshow. Any polling, on any cause, should be treated with great skepticism.

    Unless it accords with one's world view, naturlich.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    @Gardenwalker FPT

    Once again, the mistake is made conflating government roles

    There is a clear role for social housing (I do have an issue with lifetime tenancies and would prefer 10 year leases subject to renewal).

    However that doesn’t mean the government should build housing

    It would do better to commission private developers to build social housing - government should fund not execute

    Sure, sure. I agree with you. But it needs to be a positive and proactive policy, not a grudge subsidy.
    Of course. I’m not an expert in large scale development but it struck me as a very interesting move by the Corporation of London to buy the entire of the social housing section of the old Homebase site in Kensington.

    Rather than saying “you need X percentage of social housing” I’d get the government to buy X% of a development (possibly pre-funding it subject to appropriate safeguards) for use as social housing.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,156
    If SLAB could actually find a decent leader that would help.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    Same school as Govey as it happens.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584?s=20
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Dark days for the union, for sure.

    But these are dark days for everyone. We are heading into an unprecedented economic shitshow. Any polling, on any cause, should be treated with great skepticism.

    Unless it accords with one's world view, naturlich.
    No, I would say the same for a poll showing NO ahead 60/40.

    We are like a spaceship heading into a singularity, we have no idea what is on the other side, and how it will shape politics
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,115
    edited July 2020
    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,072

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    Same school as Govey as it happens.
    But Gove is a genius. I know this because I have read it on PB.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited July 2020
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    They are a very unimpressive bunch of Woke Wonks. An election
    could cruelly expose them.

    They also make the Tories look intellectually powerful and admirably diverse, which is quite an achievement.






  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,072
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
    At least Boris had a proper job which he did very well: editor of the Spectator

    "University lecturer" - God help us.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Well that's to be expected. He is hardly one of the lads down the boozer is he? Privately School educated, violin lessons, University then Human Rights lawyer

    It seems to me that is what the Labour Party is full of now, and has been for quite some time, which is probably one of the reasons I don't vote for them anymore.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,115
    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    They are a very unimpressive bunch of Woke Wonks. An election could cruelly expose them. They make the Tories look intellectually powerful and admirably diverse, which is quite an achievement.
    Let's not exaggerate. Admittedly, the Tories have a remarkable range of people from BAME backgrounds at the top - Kemal-Johnson, Patel, Sunak, Raab - but thinking of them as intellectually powerful is over-egging the pudding.
  • Options
    ABZABZ Posts: 441

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    Same school as Govey as it happens.
    And Kirsty Blackman.
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,115

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    The problem is that at least fireplace salesmen and journalists have to interact with normal people at times. Having been an academic, and seeing how they endlessly argue with each other about how many angels dance on the head of a pin, and how patronising they can be to ordinary people, I'm not sure such a narrow focus in that particular role is a good one.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,072
    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
    At least Boris had a proper job which he did very well: editor of the Spectator

    "University lecturer" - God help us.
    Editor of the Spectator, a "proper" job? S*** me not!

    If proper job means s****** the staff, you have a point.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    The problem is that at least fireplace salesmen and journalists have to interact with normal people at times. Having been an academic, and seeing how they endlessly argue with each other about how many angels dance on the head of a pin, and how patronising they can be to ordinary people, I'm not sure such a narrow focus in that particular role is a good one.
    I had a teacher who told me that I had a career in teaching/academia.

    I'm glad I didn't take their advice.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    'we had the vote'

    Are you Scottish? If so, apologies that I don't remember your on the spot contributions in the febrile days before the 2014 referendum.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    Did Starmer appoint her because he thought she would help Labour in Scotland?
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,654

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    I didnt know Gove had done a TV show! Apparently Gove went through celebs rubbish bins.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stab_in_the_Dark_(TV_series)
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    edited July 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    The problem is that at least fireplace salesmen and journalists have to interact with normal people at times. Having been an academic, and seeing how they endlessly argue with each other about how many angels dance on the head of a pin, and how patronising they can be to ordinary people, I'm not sure such a narrow focus in that particular role is a good one.
    I think you are being dogmatic.
    I’m happy to - you know - give these people a chance and see how they perform, rather than damn them because they happen to have spent their time in academia.

    Dodds strikes me by the way as thoroughly normal - maybe *too* much so - and probably needs some media training. I also like the fact she is Scottish.

    Starmer and Nandy are doing v well.

    Thomas is apparently well regarded, but haven’t heard “hide nor hair” of him.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    edited July 2020
    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris? Whose homework was always late.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    edited July 2020
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Well that's to be expected. He is hardly one of the lads down the boozer is he? Privately School educated, violin lessons, University then Human Rights lawyer

    It seems to me that is what the Labour Party is full of now, and has been for quite some time, which is probably one of the reasons I don't vote for them anymore.
    Oddly I've just come back on here, having watched BBC news, where Dodds was on, and my wife remarked how much she liked her.
    And AIUI, Starmer passed the 11+ to the local Grammar school, which later underwent some sort of metamorphosis.

    Edited for FFS.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386
    On the heels of the Kanye announcement...
    https://twitter.com/LeVostreGC/status/1279650473499230208
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,654
    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    About half of us for some strange reason.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
    At least Boris had a proper job which he did very well: editor of the Spectator

    "University lecturer" - God help us.
    Editor of the Spectator, a "proper" job? S*** me not!

    If proper job means s****** the staff, you have a point.
    Under Boris the Spectator boomed. OK he was tupping half the interns, that doesn't detract from its success.

    Boris has many flaws but he is good at spotting talent, and he knows how to delegate: ideal skills in an editor.

    Trouble is he's not good on detail, and forethought, which means he is not good at pandemics.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,598
    edited July 2020
    Charles said:

    @Gardenwalker FPT

    Once again, the mistake is made conflating government roles

    There is a clear role for social housing (I do have an issue with lifetime tenancies and would prefer 10 year leases subject to renewal).

    However that doesn’t mean the government should build housing

    It would do better to commission private developers to build social housing - government should fund not execute

    I wonder if there is some confusion? 'Building social housing' is of course ambiguous; when you yourself build an extension to your house it doesn't mean you DIY, or do the design work and employ the brickies yourself. But you do 'build' it in a sense.

    Likewise, councils didn't need to have a DLO to build council houses.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    Something fundamental has changed, that is surely more important than an arbitrary passing of time?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    I didnt know Gove had done a TV show! Apparently Gove went through celebs rubbish bins.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stab_in_the_Dark_(TV_series)
    The craving for powder when your own dealer's supply has dried up can be a terrible thing.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    'we had the vote'

    Are you Scottish? If so, apologies that I don't remember your on the spot contributions in the febrile days before the 2014 referendum.
    I wasn't on PB in 2014. But I have been highly consistent on the principle of respecting the vote in referendums even when they don't go my way. I was devastated over the EU result, but democracy must be fair and equally applied.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
    At least Boris had a proper job which he did very well: editor of the Spectator

    "University lecturer" - God help us.
    Editor of the Spectator, a "proper" job? S*** me not!

    If proper job means s****** the staff, you have a point.
    Under Boris the Spectator boomed. OK he was tupping half the interns, that doesn't detract from its success.

    Boris has many flaws but he is good at spotting talent, and he knows how to delegate: ideal skills in an editor.

    Trouble is he's not good on detail, and forethought, which means he is not good at pandemics.
    He was a successful editor as far as sales go.
    I actually thought the quality declined rather rapidly under his editorship, but I appreciate it is a minority view.

    He kept Taki on. Nobody seems to remark on that.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,072
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
    At least Boris had a proper job which he did very well: editor of the Spectator

    "University lecturer" - God help us.
    Editor of the Spectator, a "proper" job? S*** me not!

    If proper job means s****** the staff, you have a point.
    Under Boris the Spectator boomed. OK he was tupping half the interns, that doesn't detract from its success.

    Boris has many flaws but he is good at spotting talent, and he knows how to delegate: ideal skills in an editor.

    Trouble is he's not good on detail, and forethought, which means he is not good at pandemics.
    The say the art of management is delegation. I grant you under such circumstances Boris is a great manager, but by default. Legend has it he is so lazy he leaves it up to everyone else.

    As for spotting talent. May I present Gavin Williamson. I rest my case!
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    isam said:


    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    Something fundamental has changed, that is surely more important than an arbitrary passing of time?
    Things fundamentally change all the time. It is the nature of politics.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    Did Starmer appoint her because he thought she would help Labour in Scotland?
    Maybe.

    This is an interesting subplot.

    If Scotland does get a vote in the next 5 years and if they vote YES, then I predict the split will be extremely messy and acrimonious. Look at the crapstorm that has surrounded Brexit - Sindy can only be worse, if it happens: breaking a solid 300 year old union, not just a 50 year old quasi-Federal common market.

    There will be tremendous rows over debt, defici, banking, currency, migration, there will be an enormous economic shock - probably severe recessions on both sides of the border - and there will also be a million or more Scots - unionists - who will be bitterly angry, feeling that their nationality has been taken away. Like Remoaners on crack.

    A lot of people in England will also be wildly upset.

    In that febrile and unhappy atmosphere, it will be a bad time to be a Scottish Labour politician in England.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    What do you think about Jacinda Ardern?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    I am not sure that Scots do fun. At least, not in a way that anyone else would understand.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Nigelb said:

    On the heels of the Kanye announcement...
    https://twitter.com/LeVostreGC/status/1279650473499230208

    I believe old Geoffrey's sexual history may not survive media examination.

    Actually, Trump; he'll be fine.
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    "We are better than you" is the principle at the heart of all nationalisms and will inevitably come to the fore in time.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386
    Mercedes actively doing their best to prevent a contest. Not impressive.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
    At least Boris had a proper job which he did very well: editor of the Spectator

    "University lecturer" - God help us.
    Editor of the Spectator, a "proper" job? S*** me not!

    If proper job means s****** the staff, you have a point.
    Under Boris the Spectator boomed. OK he was tupping half the interns, that doesn't detract from its success.

    Boris has many flaws but he is good at spotting talent, and he knows how to delegate: ideal skills in an editor.

    Trouble is he's not good on detail, and forethought, which means he is not good at pandemics.
    It’s not a proper job, though, is it, editing a rag like that? Educating and inspiring the next generation of students is supremely worthwhile by comparison.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    What do you think about Jacinda Ardern?
    Great PR. Less than zero substance.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Gabs3 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    'we had the vote'

    Are you Scottish? If so, apologies that I don't remember your on the spot contributions in the febrile days before the 2014 referendum.
    I wasn't on PB in 2014. But I have been highly consistent on the principle of respecting the vote in referendums even when they don't go my way. I was devastated over the EU result, but democracy must be fair and equally applied.
    Yeah, but did you have a vote in the 2014 referendum?
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    I didnt know Gove had done a TV show! Apparently Gove went through celebs rubbish bins.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stab_in_the_Dark_(TV_series)
    https://youtu.be/8FKiDUmESDE
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    @Gardenwalker FPT

    Once again, the mistake is made conflating government roles

    There is a clear role for social housing (I do have an issue with lifetime tenancies and would prefer 10 year leases subject to renewal).

    However that doesn’t mean the government should build housing

    It would do better to commission private developers to build social housing - government should fund not execute

    I wonder if there is some confusion? 'Building social housing' is of course ambiguous; when you yourself build an extension to your house it doesn't mean you DIY, or do the design work and employ the brickies yourself. But you do 'build' it in a sense.

    Likewise, councils didn't need to have a DLO to build council houses.
    We are awash in unimplemented planning permissions, mostly held by developers sitting on land. The best new tax would be an annual levy on anyone with a planning permission who hasn’t actually implemented it. That would sort things out for sure.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386

    Nigelb said:

    On the heels of the Kanye announcement...
    https://twitter.com/LeVostreGC/status/1279650473499230208

    I believe old Geoffrey's sexual history may not survive media examination.

    Actually, Trump; he'll be fine.
    Does raise the age question, though.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    What do you think about Jacinda Ardern?
    Great PR. Less than zero substance.
    Would you like to see a CANZUK political union?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris? Whose homework was always late.

    I wouldn't put it that way, but I do think she is a talent, and would have made a fine PM.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    If SLAB could actually find a decent leader that would help.

    I have seen no evidence at all that he is interested in such a role, but would not Gordon Brown be an obvious person to appoint to that position? He would surely be a strong candidate to put forward as First Minister and likely to appeal to many who have switched from Labour to SNP.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the heels of the Kanye announcement...
    https://twitter.com/LeVostreGC/status/1279650473499230208

    I believe old Geoffrey's sexual history may not survive media examination.

    Actually, Trump; he'll be fine.
    Does raise the age question, though.
    And the birthers!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    Gabs3 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    "We are better than you" is the principle at the heart of all nationalisms and will inevitably come to the fore in time.
    Do you believe in a single world government?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,072

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    I didnt know Gove had done a TV show! Apparently Gove went through celebs rubbish bins.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stab_in_the_Dark_(TV_series)
    The craving for powder when your own dealer's supply has dried up can be a terrible thing.
    Meow! Ouch!
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris? Whose homework was always late.

    I wouldn't put it that way, but I do think she is a talent, and would have made a fine PM.
    Since those clearly don’t apply to Boris, I suggest I was spot on.
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    Gabs3 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    "We are better than you" is the principle at the heart of all nationalisms and will inevitably come to the fore in time.
    Do you believe in a single world government?
    No, a unitary state at that level would be unworkable.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,072
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    I didnt know Gove had done a TV show! Apparently Gove went through celebs rubbish bins.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stab_in_the_Dark_(TV_series)
    https://youtu.be/8FKiDUmESDE
    The mark of a desperate man!
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:


    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    Something fundamental has changed, that is surely more important than an arbitrary passing of time?
    Things fundamentally change all the time. It is the nature of politics.
    Things as fundamental to the Scottish Independence debate as the UK leaving the EU don't happen all the time, actually
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    Gabs3 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    'we had the vote'

    Are you Scottish? If so, apologies that I don't remember your on the spot contributions in the febrile days before the 2014 referendum.
    I wasn't on PB in 2014. But I have been highly consistent on the principle of respecting the vote in referendums even when they don't go my way. I was devastated over the EU result, but democracy must be fair and equally applied.
    Yeah, but did you have a vote in the 2014 referendum?
    No, I didn't qualify under the terms of the franchise. Are you going down the "this is a local vote for local people and nobody else can comment" route?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    What do you think about Jacinda Ardern?
    Great PR. Less than zero substance.
    Would you like to see a CANZUK political union?
    There is lots of opportunity for collaboration in terms of security, trade, foreign policy vis a vis China, judicial and education systems etc.

    Britain has the opportunity to think of itself as a Asia Pacific power, or at least part of an Asia Pacific dialogue.

    Political union though? I’m not sure how that works or makes sense.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    Have to agree with this, she's done as badly as the government but given it better branding and her sycophants in Scotland paint any criticism as being anti-Scotland.

    I'm very worried that she's completely screwing up the opening of the economy on purpose so that when the government refuse to bail her out with additional employment and business support measures she can claim that it's an English plot and the value of the Union is zero. She seems to be content with smashing the Scottish economy and that's very worrying.

    Every time Sunak or Boris speak it's very clear they see the economy as the major priority in this, whenever I see Nicola on TV she seems not to give a fuck about the economy and seems more interested in showing her "different" strategy to England despite the conditions being basically the same and no evidence that the government opening up the economy has really been all that bad anyway. Now this new threat of keeping English tourists out and the ridiculous people at the border is just another example of how Nicola is happy to screw the Scottish economy just to be different to England.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris? Whose homework was always late.

    I wouldn't put it that way, but I do think she is a talent, and would have made a fine PM.
    Since those clearly don’t apply to Boris, I suggest I was spot on.
    I think your point was unfair. Policies followed in Scotland and England have been widely similar, and I think to a large extent the UK Government has suffered by having England on its plate.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,072

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    As opposed to the forensic scientific mind of a Classics scholar?

    Fair point!
    At least Boris had a proper job which he did very well: editor of the Spectator

    "University lecturer" - God help us.
    Editor of the Spectator, a "proper" job? S*** me not!

    If proper job means s****** the staff, you have a point.
    Under Boris the Spectator boomed. OK he was tupping half the interns, that doesn't detract from its success.

    Boris has many flaws but he is good at spotting talent, and he knows how to delegate: ideal skills in an editor.

    Trouble is he's not good on detail, and forethought, which means he is not good at pandemics.
    He was a successful editor as far as sales go.
    I actually thought the quality declined rather rapidly under his editorship, but I appreciate it is a minority view.

    He kept Taki on. Nobody seems to remark on that.
    Wasn't Taki's notoriety for swordsmanship on a par with Johnson's?
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    Have to agree with this, she's done as badly as the government but given it better branding and her sycophants in Scotland paint any criticism as being anti-Scotland.

    I'm very worried that she's completely screwing up the opening of the economy on purpose so that when the government refuse to bail her out with additional employment and business support measures she can claim that it's an English plot and the value of the Union is zero. She seems to be content with smashing the Scottish economy and that's very worrying.

    Every time Sunak or Boris speak it's very clear they see the economy as the major priority in this, whenever I see Nicola on TV she seems not to give a fuck about the economy and seems more interested in showing her "different" strategy to England despite the conditions being basically the same and no evidence that the government opening up the economy has really been all that bad anyway. Now this new threat of keeping English tourists out and the ridiculous people at the border is just another example of how Nicola is happy to screw the Scottish economy just to be different to England.
    At the moment, perceptions are entirely dominated by the virus. Stats on deaths, infections, and so on.

    In six months' time we will have a better idea of the economic carnage. I am already hearing wails of pain from people getting sacked

    A very different context.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    Gabs3 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    "We are better than you" is the principle at the heart of all nationalisms and will inevitably come to the fore in time.
    It comes from a deep seated unacknowledged belief that they are actually worse.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    What do you think about Jacinda Ardern?
    Great PR. Less than zero substance.
    Would you like to see a CANZUK political union?
    There is lots of opportunity for collaboration in terms of security, trade, foreign policy vis a vis China, judicial and education systems etc.

    Britain has the opportunity to think of itself as a Asia Pacific power, or at least part of an Asia Pacific dialogue.

    Political union though? I’m not sure how that works or makes sense.
    The Chiefs of Staff proposed an integrated Empire defence structure at the end of WW2 but the Australians had learned a hard lesson over the fall of Singapore: that GB could not and would not defend Australia. Hence the Australian pivot to a defence alliance with the US and latterly India/ Japan.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Gabs3 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    'we had the vote'

    Are you Scottish? If so, apologies that I don't remember your on the spot contributions in the febrile days before the 2014 referendum.
    I wasn't on PB in 2014. But I have been highly consistent on the principle of respecting the vote in referendums even when they don't go my way. I was devastated over the EU result, but democracy must be fair and equally applied.
    Yeah, but did you have a vote in the 2014 referendum?
    No, I didn't qualify under the terms of the franchise. Are you going down the "this is a local vote for local people and nobody else can comment" route?
    No, I'm going down the 'someone who who says "we had a vote" when they didn't actually have a vote is a diddy' route.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Yet Panelbase has 58% of English Tories and a massive 85% of Scottish Tories saying Boris should block indyref2, so there is zero chance of Boris granting one even if the SNP win a majority next year as the Tory base is so opposed to it.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/shiny-beads-and-trinkets/


    However 54% of English Labour voters think indyref2 should be granted, so it looks like the SNP will have to wait until a Starmer Premiership for the chance of a second referendum being allowed by Westminster.

    The comparison with the 2016 EU referendum is not really valid as that was 41 years after the first EEC referendum of 1975, indyref1 was only 6 years ago and No won what was in Salmond's words 'a once in a generation referendum.'

    Indeed in Quebec it took 15 years for them to have their second referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 after their first in 1980
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    What do you think about Jacinda Ardern?
    Great PR. Less than zero substance.
    Would you like to see a CANZUK political union?
    There is lots of opportunity for collaboration in terms of security, trade, foreign policy vis a vis China, judicial and education systems etc.

    Britain has the opportunity to think of itself as a Asia Pacific power, or at least part of an Asia Pacific dialogue.

    Political union though? I’m not sure how that works or makes sense.
    Yes, I agree with this, an economic partnership and a big push for the anti-China Asia Pacific alliance. Don't see what anyone has got to gain out of political union, the UK, Australia, New Zealand or Canada. Why would any of those countries want to do that?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    What do you think about Jacinda Ardern?
    Great PR. Less than zero substance.
    Would you like to see a CANZUK political union?
    There is lots of opportunity for collaboration in terms of security, trade, foreign policy vis a vis China, judicial and education systems etc.

    Britain has the opportunity to think of itself as a Asia Pacific power, or at least part of an Asia Pacific dialogue.

    Political union though? I’m not sure how that works or makes sense.
    Yeah, you can have cooperation without political union. I think that would have gone down well in Europe, too. ;)
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris? Whose homework was always late.

    I wouldn't put it that way, but I do think she is a talent, and would have made a fine PM.
    Since those clearly don’t apply to Boris, I suggest I was spot on.
    I think your point was unfair. Policies followed in Scotland and England have been widely similar, and I think to a large extent the UK Government has suffered by having England on its plate.
    But who wouldn’t want to be led by an actual grown up, in times like these?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,115

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    The problem is that at least fireplace salesmen and journalists have to interact with normal people at times. Having been an academic, and seeing how they endlessly argue with each other about how many angels dance on the head of a pin, and how patronising they can be to ordinary people, I'm not sure such a narrow focus in that particular role is a good one.
    I think you are being dogmatic.
    I’m happy to - you know - give these people a chance and see how they perform, rather than damn them because they happen to have spent their time in academia.

    Dodds strikes me by the way as thoroughly normal - maybe *too* much so - and probably needs some media training. I also like the fact she is Scottish.

    Starmer and Nandy are doing v well.

    Thomas is apparently well regarded, but haven’t heard “hide nor hair” of him.
    'Could be a problem.'

    'Not sure it's a good thing.'

    If that's dogmatic...
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    isam said:

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:


    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    Something fundamental has changed, that is surely more important than an arbitrary passing of time?
    Things fundamentally change all the time. It is the nature of politics.
    Things as fundamental to the Scottish Independence debate as the UK leaving the EU don't happen all the time, actually
    COVID, oil price crash, the Great Financial Crisis, Treaty of Lisbon, the War on Terror, devolution, New Labour in power, mass privatization... they do.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    Have to agree with this, she's done as badly as the government but given it better branding and her sycophants in Scotland paint any criticism as being anti-Scotland.

    I'm very worried that she's completely screwing up the opening of the economy on purpose so that when the government refuse to bail her out with additional employment and business support measures she can claim that it's an English plot and the value of the Union is zero. She seems to be content with smashing the Scottish economy and that's very worrying.

    Every time Sunak or Boris speak it's very clear they see the economy as the major priority in this, whenever I see Nicola on TV she seems not to give a fuck about the economy and seems more interested in showing her "different" strategy to England despite the conditions being basically the same and no evidence that the government opening up the economy has really been all that bad anyway. Now this new threat of keeping English tourists out and the ridiculous people at the border is just another example of how Nicola is happy to screw the Scottish economy just to be different to England.
    At the moment, perceptions are entirely dominated by the virus. Stats on deaths, infections, and so on.

    In six months' time we will have a better idea of the economic carnage. I am already hearing wails of pain from people getting sacked

    A very different context.
    But the stats in Scotland are just as bad as England once population density is taken into account.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Good point, but let’s look at the govt:

    Johnson - journalist / tv host
    Gove - journalist / tv host
    Cummings - something dodgy in Russia
    Shapps - confidence trickster
    Williamson - fireplace salesman
    Patel - lung cancer advocate.

    Even Sunak gives off the vague air of a man who has married not just money but access to power.
    I would hate for OGH to be lining Shapps pockets because of that descripton of him posted here.

    Although arguably, it would be the defining pre-career for a modern politician.

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,598
    edited July 2020
    Gabs3 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    'we had the vote'

    Are you Scottish? If so, apologies that I don't remember your on the spot contributions in the febrile days before the 2014 referendum.
    I wasn't on PB in 2014. But I have been highly consistent on the principle of respecting the vote in referendums even when they don't go my way. I was devastated over the EU result, but democracy must be fair and equally applied.
    Yeah, but did you have a vote in the 2014 referendum?
    No, I didn't qualify under the terms of the franchise. Are you going down the "this is a local vote for local people and nobody else can comment" route?
    [Edit} But surely that means either you misunderstood the system, or (barring certain exceptions) you can't have been resident in Scxotland at the time - that (residency) was the principal qualification. It wasn't the franchise as used for the GEs.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the heels of the Kanye announcement...
    https://twitter.com/LeVostreGC/status/1279650473499230208

    I believe old Geoffrey's sexual history may not survive media examination.

    Actually, Trump; he'll be fine.
    Does raise the age question, though.
    And the birthers!
    He predates the constitution, so it would be an interesting debate.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    This is a real problem for Labour.

    They've got a credible leader, but they've not got a credible Shadow Chancellor and not got a credible economic policy.

    She is terrible

    https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1279716017204232193?s=20

    Imagine what the Keir Starmer fan club would say if this was Jezza's CoftE! :D

    Mind you, she ticks the Centrist boxes

    "Born in Aberdeen and privately educated at Robert Gordon College, Dodds studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Hilda's College, Oxford, Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Government at the London School of Economics. She lectured in Public Policy at King’s College London and Aston University."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Dodds
    One issue I do wonder about a bit with Starmer is how much of his top team is effectively made up of sort of rather high-end, theoretical professionals.

    Dodds - university lecturer
    Thomas - university lecturer
    Nandy - charity policy wonk
    Starmer himself - lawyer/civil servant
    Lammy - barrister and lecturer.

    As against that, Rayner definitely does not in any way, shape or form fit that mould.
    Thomas was also a commercial barrister
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,598
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    Have to agree with this, she's done as badly as the government but given it better branding and her sycophants in Scotland paint any criticism as being anti-Scotland.

    I'm very worried that she's completely screwing up the opening of the economy on purpose so that when the government refuse to bail her out with additional employment and business support measures she can claim that it's an English plot and the value of the Union is zero. She seems to be content with smashing the Scottish economy and that's very worrying.

    Every time Sunak or Boris speak it's very clear they see the economy as the major priority in this, whenever I see Nicola on TV she seems not to give a fuck about the economy and seems more interested in showing her "different" strategy to England despite the conditions being basically the same and no evidence that the government opening up the economy has really been all that bad anyway. Now this new threat of keeping English tourists out and the ridiculous people at the border is just another example of how Nicola is happy to screw the Scottish economy just to be different to England.
    'As badly'? It's all relative, but the total mortality rate in Scotland is about 2/3 that of England, and the infection rate at present is much lower.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,598
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    Have to agree with this, she's done as badly as the government but given it better branding and her sycophants in Scotland paint any criticism as being anti-Scotland.

    I'm very worried that she's completely screwing up the opening of the economy on purpose so that when the government refuse to bail her out with additional employment and business support measures she can claim that it's an English plot and the value of the Union is zero. She seems to be content with smashing the Scottish economy and that's very worrying.

    Every time Sunak or Boris speak it's very clear they see the economy as the major priority in this, whenever I see Nicola on TV she seems not to give a fuck about the economy and seems more interested in showing her "different" strategy to England despite the conditions being basically the same and no evidence that the government opening up the economy has really been all that bad anyway. Now this new threat of keeping English tourists out and the ridiculous people at the border is just another example of how Nicola is happy to screw the Scottish economy just to be different to England.
    At the moment, perceptions are entirely dominated by the virus. Stats on deaths, infections, and so on.

    In six months' time we will have a better idea of the economic carnage. I am already hearing wails of pain from people getting sacked

    A very different context.
    But the stats in Scotland are just as bad as England once population density is taken into account.
    Has anyone done that analysis? Intuitively it doesn't make sense - much of the population is in very dense areas.

  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Who among we English wouldn’t rather have Nicola managing us through the virus crisis rather than Boris?

    Dunno. I’m rather fed up with her now.
    I think she’s a grievance monger, a control freak, and rather petty in the way she has tried to communicate a “better, Scottish” covid policy.

    Scots deserve fun too.

    I’m not sure they get it from Sturgeon.
    Have to agree with this, she's done as badly as the government but given it better branding and her sycophants in Scotland paint any criticism as being anti-Scotland.

    I'm very worried that she's completely screwing up the opening of the economy on purpose so that when the government refuse to bail her out with additional employment and business support measures she can claim that it's an English plot and the value of the Union is zero. She seems to be content with smashing the Scottish economy and that's very worrying.

    Every time Sunak or Boris speak it's very clear they see the economy as the major priority in this, whenever I see Nicola on TV she seems not to give a fuck about the economy and seems more interested in showing her "different" strategy to England despite the conditions being basically the same and no evidence that the government opening up the economy has really been all that bad anyway. Now this new threat of keeping English tourists out and the ridiculous people at the border is just another example of how Nicola is happy to screw the Scottish economy just to be different to England.
    At the moment, perceptions are entirely dominated by the virus. Stats on deaths, infections, and so on.

    In six months' time we will have a better idea of the economic carnage. I am already hearing wails of pain from people getting sacked

    A very different context.
    But the stats in Scotland are just as bad as England once population density is taken into account.
    Sure, but several things are helping Sturgeon. First, she is naturally a more cautious, careful politician than the risk-taking Boris, and in a pandemic that plays better.

    Also, she has the advantage that everything that goes wrong can be blamed on England, while she takes the credit for anything good.

    eg the Treasury response has been generous and creditable, but the UK govt gets fuck all credit north of the border

    When the fog of the virus has begun to clear, the scenery will be changed. Scotland is going to be plunged into a terrible recession, Sturgeon might find that much harder to manage.


  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,814
    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    It makes no sense not to have another referendum on Scottish Independence.

    How can anyone argue that the decision in 2016 by the UK to leave the EU, while Scotland voted to Remain, doesn't constitute significant change to the basis on which they voted to stay part of the UK in 2014 is beyond me. Especially as a lot of the people making that argument did want another EU referendum just because the Remainers in parliament wouldn't respect the will o' the people

    The criteria of “significant change” was made up by advocates of another referendum.

    There need to be clear and simple principles on how often the question can be asked. Time is the easiest and most transparent. I like 20 years because it gives a frequent review without overshadowing the normal business of government
    But a huge part of the campaign for Scotland to stay as part of the Union relied on our being part of the EU didn't it? Or am I imagining/misremembering? If so, the UK voting to leave changes everything, particularly as Scotland voted 62-38 Remain
    That can be part of the debate when the next referendum happens. But we had the vote and it was for No. That should be it for a generation. It is undemocratic to have a "Yes means out, No means you ask again". Give it 20 years.
    LOL, step forward Robert Mugabe
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Wee Jamie and his repetitively dud memes is a fitting representative for all the raging Yoons on here. Project Fear 3 is just going to be a tedious regurgitation of 1 with at least two of its cornerstones missing ('stability' and EU membership).

    https://twitter.com/jhalcrojohnston/status/1279707568898703360?s=20
This discussion has been closed.