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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » House effect. The Polish presidential election

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » House effect. The Polish presidential election

The @POLITICOEurope poll tracker has Sunday's Polish presidential run-off as a coin toss.The betting markets think Duda is twice as likely to win as Trzaskowski. pic.twitter.com/xVbV3HCpVp

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,894
    13-8 with Hills (No premium charge). Looks fair enough to me, in for £40.
  • Options
    So people in the Government know what we’re doing is a terrible idea. We’re ruled by morons
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,567
    Fascinating thread - thank you Mr Meeks. Could there be government ramping in the betting markets, or do I need to check my tin foil stock?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Thanks for the tip, Mr. Meeks.

    Decided to back it on Betfair at 2.76.
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Nice article and a good summary. Duda should be a wafer-thin favourite and I'm happy with my book of bets against him a shade under 2/1.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    There was I thinking Covid was being spread by e-mails, hate speech or drones and guess what? It's been an aerosol danger all the time. Who'd have thought it? A respiratory virus spread by respiration.

    There's a shock. Do you remember the wartime posters 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases, catch the germs in your handkerchief''

    Those genius people in 1939 already knew that.

    Did Tony Hancock die in vain?

    If you're ever looked across a sunbeam in a room, you'll see all the dust particles swirling around in the room. And they are are the heavy ones. Aerosols of virus have a massive surface area compared to volume and the water evaporates off quickly, leaving the virus to go through nuisance masks without hindrance. Leaving even relatively large particles to be sucked in between face and mask. HEPA filtration might help if it's worn correctly.

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,200
    UK cases - 630

    England cases plotted by specimen date.

    As usual, last 3-5 days will be subject to heavy revision. last 5 days included for completeness.

    image
    image

    Last 30 days of cases by England Lower Level Authority -

    image
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,127
    fpt
    Taiwan has been doing well in this crisis and I missed this item when it came out more than two months ago. Taiwan's vice president, who is also a leading epidemiologist said:
    "It’s not necessary to stop all activities. As long as more than 50% of the population reduces 50% of their social contacts then the outbreak can be controlled. They can go to school, to work but must reduce non-essential recreation and social contact."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/taiwans-vice-president-chen-chien-jen-countrys-fight-covid-19/

    If the economists' models are right about interaction between the epidemic and the behavioural response, which they seem to be, then the level of herd immunity may be well below what has been assumed based on epidemiological models with constant parameters.
    As John Cochrane says in a comment on his blog, "Economists vs. epidemiologists has a long history. Economists point out that disease transmission is not a biological constant, but varies with human behavior. And human behavior varies predictably in response to incentives (and information)."

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,032
    Scott_xP said:
    Don't worry it will be world beating!
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    At the moment Sunak is popular for helping businesses with the furlough scheme.

    However the test for him will come in December, if Boris ends the transition period and goes to WTO terms and Sunak does not resign he will lose popularity with Remain voters, if however he does resign if no deal is agreed with the EU then he will lose popularity with the Tory membership who will elect the next leader and want a hard Brexit.

    His prospects therefore depend on there being a deal with the EU but that also means Boris will probably remain popular enough to stay PM anyway

    I wish people would stop pretending WTO is a possibility. It isn't. Bigging it up just plays into Johnson's hands - which is perhaps your motive for doing it?

    It allows Johnson to trumpet the inevitable close alignment deal as a victory snatched from the jaws of defeat. Also to benefit from relief that something which was never going to happen is not going to happen.
    Ah, I see what you are up to.

    Interesting that Labour`s monkeying around last year was predicated partly on wanting to avoid WTO which, you say, has never been a possibility.
    Yes that's an interesting and accurate comparison. It's all pointless now but my view back then was that the Benn Act, all of that stuff, was bad politics. We - Labour - should have called Johnson's bluff, made him own all the decisions, because he was never doing No Deal.
    Current situation re: schools reminds me of those times last year.

    Last year Corbyn/McDonnell/Starmer (I suspect Starmer was the brains) had the Conservatives in a head-lock, with the help of the FTPA, only to be released by Swinson`s agreement to hold a GE.

    Now we have Starmer doing the same thing again. He has Conservatives in another head-lock - this time over schools. Starmer is ruthless - and I don`t see the Conservative`s escape from this one.

    Once again, The tories are in a trap of partly their own devising.
    I love the idea that the Conservatives were in a head-lock last year, very amusing.

    The Tories were always able to call for a General Election and it couldn't ever be realistically opposed. Even if Swinson had continued to refuse the election all Boris ever had to do was to keep tabling his Brexit deal and to keep tabling an election motion. Parliament would have had to vote for one of them eventually, or the anger in the country would have been stoked even further.

    You can't hide from the public forever.
    We'd already had one re-election in the 2015 term. Its not hiding from an election when you already held one you didn't need and the original term still has half a year left to run. Could have interesting though - George Osborne vs Andy Burnham in a spring 20 General Election campaign in the middle of a pandemic. Would Osborne hide from the public by postponing the vote because too dangerous to hold?
    It isn't hiding from an election arguably when you're the government and can claim to be "getting on with the job".

    It is definitely hiding from an election when you're the opposition and are cowering away from an election while continuing to remain the opposition.

    The opposition has a moral and political duty to be "up for it" to go to the polls and demand to be entrusted with power. If the opposition looks like it is afraid of the election then it is only going to be considered weak and not ready for power and it will do the opposition tremendous damage.

    Its not a head-lock its just political reality. The opposition must be prepared to go to the polls.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,200
    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955

    Interesting info on the poll of polls of Poles.

    Were there enough proles in the subsamples?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,200
    RobD said:

    Interesting info on the poll of polls of Poles.

    Were there enough proles in the subsamples?
    Should we have a poll of how many poles you need in a subsample of a poll of polls of poles to be a valid poll?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,567
    edited July 2020

    RobD said:

    Interesting info on the poll of polls of Poles.

    Were there enough proles in the subsamples?
    Should we have a poll of how many poles you need in a subsample of a poll of polls of poles to be a valid poll?
    Perhaps plotted on polar coordinates?
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072
    edited July 2020
    Thanks, Alastair - done it. Hope you will be mixing it BTL again at some point.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834
    edited July 2020

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    And likely to remain so for many months to come.

    The actual City of London (square mile) population is around 10,000, and the average daily commuters over half a million. It's actually quite the place to walk around at the weekend, even most of the pubs are shut on Saturdays.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,048
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    I don't think I will mourn the demise of the Angus Steak House and assorted purveyors of tourist tat, or shed too many tears for London CRE investors. Could be the opportunity for a more edgy, arty, alternative kind of economy to emerge in central London.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1280889401384620032

    In the leaked letter, dated Wednesday, July 8, Truss warned that the plans would create a series of logistical, political and reputational risks for the government, including:

    - A potential legal challenge from the World Trade Organisation.
    - Increased smuggling from the EU.
    - Tariffs to be applied by "default" to all goods imported into Northern Ireland.
    - The undermining of the UK's international trade policy.


    Let's look on the bright side - at least one Cabinet Minister now realises that the government is taking us into what was until a few days ago a completely avoidable disaster, which is one more minister than we previously thought. Quite why no-one else in government hasn't understood these most obvious points, or listened to any experts all of whom have been saying the same thing for months, is one of the great mysteries of the age.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,240
    Interesting public perception of taxes

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1280889426424541185?s=09
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
    Are you just a bit dim?

    Central London in all its glory - restaurants, bars, pubs, clubs, cafes, theatres, galleries - generates enormous amounts of money, and of course employment. But nearly all of this biz comes from workers who commute in, and tourists, it is not self sustaining.

    Now take away most of the commuters and most of the tourists and most of those businesses will go under very quickly.

    That means tens of thousands of unemployed people, who live all over London: and now they can no longer afford to spend money in THEIR neighborhoods. The ripple has begun, and it is spreading beyond the centre.

    The closure of all these businesses also means a collapse in the tax take - for councils, and for the Inland Revenue. That means rates have to go up elsewhere in London, to compensate.

    Thus. More businesses go under, London becomes less attractive, rich people move out entirely, taxes have to go up even more as these taxpayers depart. And so on.

    An advanced economy like the UK is highly interconnected. It is a complex machine. Collapsing central London is like taking a hammer to the engine of that machine. It might still work, but it will go slower, and make weird noises, and maybe catch fire.

    Read what happened to New York City's economy in the 1960s and 70s. We could be about to see that replayed, but speeded up, in London (and New York, for that matter)

  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,835

    Let's look on the bright side - at least one Cabinet Minister now realises that the government is taking us into what was until a few days ago a completely avoidable disaster, which is one more minister than we previously thought. Quite why no-one else in government hasn't understood these most obvious points, or listened to any experts all of whom have been saying the same thing for months, is one of the great mysteries of the age.

    Dom told them not to worry about it...
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,482
    Scott_xP said:
    Interesting. One of the effects of the Brexit vote was to force the island of Ireland to think in a grown up way about union of the island - one island either jointly in or out of the the EU and, if out, all either in or out of the UK. They will get there in the end.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,127
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
    Are you just a bit dim?

    Central London in all its glory - restaurants, bars, pubs, clubs, cafes, theatres, galleries - generates enormous amounts of money, and of course employment. But nearly all of this biz comes from workers who commute in, and tourists, it is not self sustaining.

    Now take away most of the commuters and most of the tourists and most of those businesses will go under very quickly.

    That means tens of thousands of unemployed people, who live all over London: and now they can no longer afford to spend money in THEIR neighborhoods. The ripple has begun, and it is spreading beyond the centre.

    The closure of all these businesses also means a collapse in the tax take - for councils, and for the Inland Revenue. That means rates have to go up elsewhere in London, to compensate.

    Thus. More businesses go under, London becomes less attractive, rich people move out entirely, taxes have to go up even more as these taxpayers depart. And so on.

    An advanced economy like the UK is highly interconnected. It is a complex machine. Collapsing central London is like taking a hammer to the engine of that machine. It might still work, but it will go slower, and make weird noises, and maybe catch fire.

    Read what happened to New York City's economy in the 1960s and 70s. We could be about to see that replayed, but speeded up, in London (and New York, for that matter)

    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    I don't think I will mourn the demise of the Angus Steak House and assorted purveyors of tourist tat, or shed too many tears for London CRE investors. Could be the opportunity for a more edgy, arty, alternative kind of economy to emerge in central London.
    This is insane. You don't even know Covent Garden.

    Maybe 30 years ago it was what you describe: Angus Steak Houses.

    Now it is (or was) an amazing destination, with thousands of small businesses, world class restaurants, beautiful independent shops.

    Neal's Yard:

    https://twitter.com/Quaintlyuk/status/1279098139186802694?s=20

    Seven Dials:

    https://twitter.com/frolic_fiction/status/1195443176322019330?s=20


    Now it is all endangered. And this is just one part of London which is threatened, others are in the same dire straits.

    And this same process will be repeated, on a smaller scale, in big cities across the UK.

    And it will also be repeated across the western world, especially the USA

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1280889401384620032

    In the leaked letter, dated Wednesday, July 8, Truss warned that the plans would create a series of logistical, political and reputational risks for the government, including:

    - A potential legal challenge from the World Trade Organisation.
    - Increased smuggling from the EU.
    - Tariffs to be applied by "default" to all goods imported into Northern Ireland.
    - The undermining of the UK's international trade policy.


    Let's look on the bright side - at least one Cabinet Minister now realises that the government is taking us into what was until a few days ago a completely avoidable disaster, which is one more minister than we previously thought. Quite why no-one else in government hasn't understood these most obvious points, or listened to any experts all of whom have been saying the same thing for months, is one of the great mysteries of the age.
    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
    Are you just a bit dim?

    Central London in all its glory - restaurants, bars, pubs, clubs, cafes, theatres, galleries - generates enormous amounts of money, and of course employment. But nearly all of this biz comes from workers who commute in, and tourists, it is not self sustaining.

    Now take away most of the commuters and most of the tourists and most of those businesses will go under very quickly.

    That means tens of thousands of unemployed people, who live all over London: and now they can no longer afford to spend money in THEIR neighborhoods. The ripple has begun, and it is spreading beyond the centre.

    The closure of all these businesses also means a collapse in the tax take - for councils, and for the Inland Revenue. That means rates have to go up elsewhere in London, to compensate.

    Thus. More businesses go under, London becomes less attractive, rich people move out entirely, taxes have to go up even more as these taxpayers depart. And so on.

    An advanced economy like the UK is highly interconnected. It is a complex machine. Collapsing central London is like taking a hammer to the engine of that machine. It might still work, but it will go slower, and make weird noises, and maybe catch fire.

    Read what happened to New York City's economy in the 1960s and 70s. We could be about to see that replayed, but speeded up, in London (and New York, for that matter)

    So London may be about to take a hit. It can afford to do so.

    There's plenty of space in the rest of the country. If people aren't travelling into Central London and aren't spending in Central London shops they will be working somewhere else instead. If they are working in their own LOCAL area and spending within their own LOCAL area that is a good thing. It is not a bad thing.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    The Polish election is interesting as it is basically between Duda, a Polish Nigel Farage crossed with Ian Paisley and Trzaskowski, a Polish David Cameron
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2020


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    edited July 2020
    Scotland refuses to end quarantine for Spanish visitors unlike England, a move I am sure the Spanish will take note of if Sturgeon tries to push the case that an independent Scotland would return to the EU, especially as they are already concerned over the impact that would have on Catalonia

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53336489
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
    Are you just a bit dim?

    Central London in all its glory - restaurants, bars, pubs, clubs, cafes, theatres, galleries - generates enormous amounts of money, and of course employment. But nearly all of this biz comes from workers who commute in, and tourists, it is not self sustaining.

    Now take away most of the commuters and most of the tourists and most of those businesses will go under very quickly.

    That means tens of thousands of unemployed people, who live all over London: and now they can no longer afford to spend money in THEIR neighborhoods. The ripple has begun, and it is spreading beyond the centre.

    The closure of all these businesses also means a collapse in the tax take - for councils, and for the Inland Revenue. That means rates have to go up elsewhere in London, to compensate.

    Thus. More businesses go under, London becomes less attractive, rich people move out entirely, taxes have to go up even more as these taxpayers depart. And so on.

    An advanced economy like the UK is highly interconnected. It is a complex machine. Collapsing central London is like taking a hammer to the engine of that machine. It might still work, but it will go slower, and make weird noises, and maybe catch fire.

    Read what happened to New York City's economy in the 1960s and 70s. We could be about to see that replayed, but speeded up, in London (and New York, for that matter)

    So London may be about to take a hit. It can afford to do so.

    There's plenty of space in the rest of the country. If people aren't travelling into Central London and aren't spending in Central London shops they will be working somewhere else instead. If they are working in their own LOCAL area and spending within their own LOCAL area that is a good thing. It is not a bad thing.
    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    I think its helped by it.

    Rather than overthinking things and trying to get a perfect system up and running (which takes forever and never arrives), the country is getting used to being more agile and adaptable. Find a solution that works, JFDI and if its broken then fix it.

    That agility, that adaptability will help with Brexit too. We don't need a perfect computer system, we need a fudge that works.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,567
    edited July 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Scotland refuses to end quarantine for Spanish visitors, a move I am sure the Spanish will take note of if Sturgeon tries to push the case that an independent Scotland would return to the EU, especially as they are already concerned over the impact that would have on Catalonia

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53336489

    Not Spanish visitors, but people coming from Spain. Inclouding Scots holidaymakers. [edit]

    And it is based on the maths of disease incidence. Nothing to do with them being Spanish, or Tau Cetian, or whatever.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    LadyG said:



    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    I'm sure all those tourists who used to crowd into central London and spend £££ will seamlessly shift into visiting the world-class attractions of places like Oldham, Hartlepool, Reading and Bognor Regis.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,048
    HYUFD said:

    The Polish election is interesting as it is basically between Duda, a Polish Nigel Farage crossed with Ian Paisley and Trzaskowski, a Polish David Cameron

    Sounds like an unenviable choice. Not sure Paisley would appreciate the comparison, since I assume Duda is a follower of what I believe the Reverend Doctor used to call The Whore of Rome.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    I don't think I will mourn the demise of the Angus Steak House and assorted purveyors of tourist tat, or shed too many tears for London CRE investors. Could be the opportunity for a more edgy, arty, alternative kind of economy to emerge in central London.
    This is insane. You don't even know Covent Garden.

    Maybe 30 years ago it was what you describe: Angus Steak Houses.

    Now it is (or was) an amazing destination, with thousands of small businesses, world class restaurants, beautiful independent shops.

    Neal's Yard:

    https://twitter.com/Quaintlyuk/status/1279098139186802694?s=20

    Seven Dials:

    https://twitter.com/frolic_fiction/status/1195443176322019330?s=20


    Now it is all endangered. And this is just one part of London which is threatened, others are in the same dire straits.

    And this same process will be repeated, on a smaller scale, in big cities across the UK.

    And it will also be repeated across the western world, especially the USA

    You forgot to mention the homeless heroin addicts
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
    It will be a hell of a faff to go back and fish it out. I can't recall the exact date and I have not got it on floppy.

    But my clear recollection is of a surprising comment which stressed the high muscle/fat ratio of the Prime Minister. Is your recollection materially different?

    Maybe it's on your floppy in which case ... ??
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,567
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
    It will be a hell of a faff to go back and fish it out. I can't recall the exact date and I have not got it on floppy.

    But my clear recollection is of a surprising comment which stressed the high muscle/fat ratio of the Prime Minister. Is your recollection materially different?

    Maybe it's on your floppy in which case ... ??
    Surely, in terms of IT, it's more likely that it is the PM which is floppy, and your memory is crosswiring ...
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935

    HYUFD said:

    The Polish election is interesting as it is basically between Duda, a Polish Nigel Farage crossed with Ian Paisley and Trzaskowski, a Polish David Cameron

    Sounds like an unenviable choice. Not sure Paisley would appreciate the comparison, since I assume Duda is a follower of what I believe the Reverend Doctor used to call The Whore of Rome.
    Both were/are anti abortion and anti gay marriage even if one was an evangelical Protestant and the other a strict Roman Catholic
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,567

    LadyG said:



    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    I'm sure all those tourists who used to crowd into central London and spend £££ will seamlessly shift into visiting the world-class attractions of places like Oldham, Hartlepool, Reading and Bognor Regis.
    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:



    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    I'm sure all those tourists who used to crowd into central London and spend £££ will seamlessly shift into visiting the world-class attractions of places like Oldham, Hartlepool, Reading and Bognor Regis.
    Yes. If London is cancelled, that's basically the end of Britain's international tourist industry.

    People come to the UK mainly to see London. We don't have the Riviera, the Alps, Renaissance Tuscany, or oodles of Soanish sunshine. We don't have jungles, deserts or pyramids.

    Take out London and foreign people just might not bother at all.

    That's a tremendous blow to UK PLC.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232
    LadyG said:


    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    Are you talking about the effects of Covid-19 or Brexit?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
    Let's hope so. It would be a hell of a political Houdini act if Boris can pull that one off and escape unscathed.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scotland refuses to end quarantine for Spanish visitors, a move I am sure the Spanish will take note of if Sturgeon tries to push the case that an independent Scotland would return to the EU, especially as they are already concerned over the impact that would have on Catalonia

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53336489

    Not Spanish visitors, but people coming from Spain. Inclouding Scots holidaymakers. [edit]

    And it is based on the maths of disease incidence. Nothing to do with them being Spanish, or Tau Cetian, or whatever.
    Which will reduce the significant number of Scottish tourists who usually go to Spain for their summer holidays, given it is normally not hard to get tell the difference between the levels of sunshine on a Spanish beach on the Costas and a Scottish beach
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,567
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scotland refuses to end quarantine for Spanish visitors, a move I am sure the Spanish will take note of if Sturgeon tries to push the case that an independent Scotland would return to the EU, especially as they are already concerned over the impact that would have on Catalonia

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53336489

    Not Spanish visitors, but people coming from Spain. Inclouding Scots holidaymakers. [edit]

    And it is based on the maths of disease incidence. Nothing to do with them being Spanish, or Tau Cetian, or whatever.
    Which will reduce the significant number of Scottish tourists who usually go to Spain for their summer holidays, given it is normally not hard to get tell the difference between the levels of sunshine on a Spanish beach on the Costas and a Scottish beach
    So? It would all close down anyway if the virus came back.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:


    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    Are you talking about the effects of Covid-19 or Brexit?
    London would have survived Brexit alone just fine.

    Covid-19 is worse, by several orders of magnitude,

    A photo essay of Covent Garden right now. Today:

    https://onechancetoseetheworld.com/2020/07/08/12-walking-through-an-empty-covent-garden-although-it-is-getting-busier/

    I shudder to think of the economic effects of this, if it persists for much longer
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
    Nigel will be dusting his campaign cords off.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Why do we have big cities? Because they bigger they get the more their gravity pulls in more people which makes them bigger etc etc. So many of the white collar jobs in our city centres can be done remotely, perhaps with a smaller city base for meetings or not in the city at all.

    The Rona has forced a hard stop. Which provides the opportunity for a hard reset. If you can work from home:
    Does it make sense for you to waste hours every week travelling and burn £thousands doing so?
    Does it make sense for your employer to spend £lots buying or renting an office and all the service and ancillary costs that go with it?
    Does it make sense to spend £lots on twatty coffee and a danish on your way in then £lots on an increasingly twatty hipster lunch every day?
    Is that shop near the office / train station where you pay £lots for books / clothes / stuff your best place to buy when almost anywhere else is cheaper?
    If you don't need to waste cash and time commuting do you want to live in your slightly too small home because its close to the road in / station? When for less you could buy more elsewhere?

    As I said on both the previous thread and many times before there are a lot of people for whom the answer to the above is "no". Whats more, their employer having been forced to adapt to remote working finds it delivers 95% of the productivity for 70% of the costs of having everyone in an office...
    All true.

    The trouble is, the movement from the old commuting model, to your new model, is going to happen overnight, it seems, and not in some slowly evolving way.

    That means gruesome amounts of economic pain
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,032


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
    That would suit everyone except Johnson's backers. Easy, jettison Cummings and his band of scoundrels.

    Johnson would indeed be a hero at the sight of a tearful Mark François, realising his dreams of economic armageddon for the return of imaginary sovereignty are no more than dust
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232
    edited July 2020


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
    Let's hope so. It would be a hell of a political Houdini act if Boris can pull that one off and escape unscathed.
    The best observation I've learned today.

    Boris Johnson isn't a pathological liar, he genuinely means it when he says it, even if it contradicts something he's said in the past.

    Might work that into a future PB thread header.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,152
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
    It will be a hell of a faff to go back and fish it out. I can't recall the exact date and I have not got it on floppy.

    But my clear recollection is of a surprising comment which stressed the high muscle/fat ratio of the Prime Minister. Is your recollection materially different?

    Maybe it's on your floppy in which case ... ??
    Whats wrong with "manly muscle". OK so I am bisexual so expressing my admiration for manly muscles may not be everyone's preference. But Shagger likes to do exercise (historically at least) and I know from my recent cycling obsession that biking makes for toned muscles. At least that was the public excuse when I started shaving my arms / legs...
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2020
    Anyway I'm doing my bit. We're going to London on Saturday and I've booked a table at one of the few decent restaurants which have reopened. More are re-opening soon.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    The population of central London has risen dramatically in the last 20 years, as offices and retail space have been converted to flats and new residential towers have been constructed.

    Go to Euston or Paddington or fitzrovia or Victoria, they are full of new flats.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:


    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    Are you talking about the effects of Covid-19 or Brexit?
    London would have survived Brexit alone just fine.

    Covid-19 is worse, by several orders of magnitude,

    A photo essay of Covent Garden right now. Today:

    https://onechancetoseetheworld.com/2020/07/08/12-walking-through-an-empty-covent-garden-although-it-is-getting-busier/

    I shudder to think of the economic effects of this, if it persists for much longer
    Enough of your Project Fear, you just need to believe in the brilliance of this country.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820


    Boris Johnson isn't a pathological liar, he genuinely means it when he says it, even if it contradicts something he's said in the past..

    Yes, I think that is correct.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834
    edited July 2020

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Why do we have big cities? Because they bigger they get the more their gravity pulls in more people which makes them bigger etc etc. So many of the white collar jobs in our city centres can be done remotely, perhaps with a smaller city base for meetings or not in the city at all.

    The Rona has forced a hard stop. Which provides the opportunity for a hard reset. If you can work from home:
    Does it make sense for you to waste hours every week travelling and burn £thousands doing so?
    Does it make sense for your employer to spend £lots buying or renting an office and all the service and ancillary costs that go with it?
    Does it make sense to spend £lots on twatty coffee and a danish on your way in then £lots on an increasingly twatty hipster lunch every day?
    Is that shop near the office / train station where you pay £lots for books / clothes / stuff your best place to buy when almost anywhere else is cheaper?
    If you don't need to waste cash and time commuting do you want to live in your slightly too small home because its close to the road in / station? When for less you could buy more elsewhere?

    As I said on both the previous thread and many times before there are a lot of people for whom the answer to the above is "no". Whats more, their employer having been forced to adapt to remote working finds it delivers 95% of the productivity for 70% of the costs of having everyone in an office...
    The massive difference is in the attitude of the employers.

    They've resisted WFH for years, preferring everyone to spend three or four hours a day getting to some of the most expensive real estate in the world, all at the same time five days a week.

    When it was forced on them, they had no choice but to embrace it and now they realise that they can get the majority of the productivity for a fraction of the cost.

    The 'new normal' in a lot of white-collar industries might be teams meeting up for two or three days every two or three weeks, with WFH the rest of the time - with significant impact on both city office requirements and how far away people are prepared to live from the office.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,152


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
    Let's hope so. It would be a hell of a political Houdini act if Boris can pull that one off and escape unscathed.
    We'll have FOM as well. Of course publicly FOM Will Have Ended. But we have already seen what sovereign choices mean having Taken Back Control of our borders - we left them wide open to let anyone in.

    So going forward people won't have the absolute right to come in here and claim benefits - We Will Deport Them (legally, as EU law allows...). Instead we will welcome our European neighbours in to do the jobs in our economy taht we need. Like working in our care homes, food factories, harvesting crops etc etc etc. Not because we have to forced by bally foreigners as rule takers. But because we are now Rule Makers. And our rule is come here to work.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
    It will be a hell of a faff to go back and fish it out. I can't recall the exact date and I have not got it on floppy.

    But my clear recollection is of a surprising comment which stressed the high muscle/fat ratio of the Prime Minister. Is your recollection materially different?

    Maybe it's on your floppy in which case ... ??
    Yes. It is different.

    I said repeatedly that I'd never said that and even requoted my original post in full. But you got off on banging on about Muscles Johnson when I never said that whatsoever.

    It's a lie, a fabrication. You're putting words into quote marks that I never used and that's just not on.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,567

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    A very nice political allusion there!
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,477
    Having personally interfered in Polish politics long ago, before Solidarity (the political party) split and the right-wingers took over the government, yours truly is hoping that the Mayor beats the Dud this Sunday.

    Methinks the betting money is on Duda on theory that, if election is close, he & his henchpeople will steal it. Not sure that's the case, but given government's conduct can NOT rule it out.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,240
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scotland refuses to end quarantine for Spanish visitors, a move I am sure the Spanish will take note of if Sturgeon tries to push the case that an independent Scotland would return to the EU, especially as they are already concerned over the impact that would have on Catalonia

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53336489

    Not Spanish visitors, but people coming from Spain. Inclouding Scots holidaymakers. [edit]

    And it is based on the maths of disease incidence. Nothing to do with them being Spanish, or Tau Cetian, or whatever.
    Which will reduce the significant number of Scottish tourists who usually go to Spain for their summer holidays, given it is normally not hard to get tell the difference between the levels of sunshine on a Spanish beach on the Costas and a Scottish beach
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scotland refuses to end quarantine for Spanish visitors, a move I am sure the Spanish will take note of if Sturgeon tries to push the case that an independent Scotland would return to the EU, especially as they are already concerned over the impact that would have on Catalonia

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53336489

    Not Spanish visitors, but people coming from Spain. Inclouding Scots holidaymakers. [edit]

    And it is based on the maths of disease incidence. Nothing to do with them being Spanish, or Tau Cetian, or whatever.
    Which will reduce the significant number of Scottish tourists who usually go to Spain for their summer holidays, given it is normally not hard to get tell the difference between the levels of sunshine on a Spanish beach on the Costas and a Scottish beach
    They have already booked through Englands airports so Nicola looks as if she is going to have to arrest Scots as they come home. However, watch this space as she lifts the embargo in the next week to ten days
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,152

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    The population of central London has risen dramatically in the last 20 years, as offices and retail space have been converted to flats and new residential towers have been constructed.

    Go to Euston or Paddington or fitzrovia or Victoria, they are full of new flats.
    They are, but the population density is still lower than inner city burbs like Islington or Brixton etc. And lots of these new flats are buy to let, second homes for rich Brits or foreigners, occupied by rich foreign students, and so on.

    Many of those people have fled London, because plague, and many have not yet come back, hence the still-deserted streets. Lots might not come back for a looooong time

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,032

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:


    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    Are you talking about the effects of Covid-19 or Brexit?
    London would have survived Brexit alone just fine.

    Covid-19 is worse, by several orders of magnitude,

    A photo essay of Covent Garden right now. Today:

    https://onechancetoseetheworld.com/2020/07/08/12-walking-through-an-empty-covent-garden-although-it-is-getting-busier/

    I shudder to think of the economic effects of this, if it persists for much longer
    Enough of your Project Fear, you just need to believe in the brilliance of this country.
    Fortunately we have a statesman leading us through to the promised land who has the self-proclaimed determination and wisdom of Churchill and the ambition and foresight of Roosevelt.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,477
    La Maxwell update - arraignment & bail hearing now scheduled for July 14, will be via Zoom due to Covid concerns.

    Likely NOT her happiest Bastille Day. But then, into each life a little rain must fall. OR in her case, a monsoon.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.
    Sounds like Stoke.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,152
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Why do we have big cities? Because they bigger they get the more their gravity pulls in more people which makes them bigger etc etc. So many of the white collar jobs in our city centres can be done remotely, perhaps with a smaller city base for meetings or not in the city at all.

    The Rona has forced a hard stop. Which provides the opportunity for a hard reset. If you can work from home:
    Does it make sense for you to waste hours every week travelling and burn £thousands doing so?
    Does it make sense for your employer to spend £lots buying or renting an office and all the service and ancillary costs that go with it?
    Does it make sense to spend £lots on twatty coffee and a danish on your way in then £lots on an increasingly twatty hipster lunch every day?
    Is that shop near the office / train station where you pay £lots for books / clothes / stuff your best place to buy when almost anywhere else is cheaper?
    If you don't need to waste cash and time commuting do you want to live in your slightly too small home because its close to the road in / station? When for less you could buy more elsewhere?

    As I said on both the previous thread and many times before there are a lot of people for whom the answer to the above is "no". Whats more, their employer having been forced to adapt to remote working finds it delivers 95% of the productivity for 70% of the costs of having everyone in an office...
    All true.

    The trouble is, the movement from the old commuting model, to your new model, is going to happen overnight, it seems, and not in some slowly evolving way.

    That means gruesome amounts of economic pain
    Its already happened. The train companies ran out of cash very quickly because running most of their services with a fraction of the passengers. Yes there are more cars on the road than a month ago and certainly more than around Easter but its still noticeably quiet.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
    Are you just a bit dim?

    Central London in all its glory - restaurants, bars, pubs, clubs, cafes, theatres, galleries - generates enormous amounts of money, and of course employment. But nearly all of this biz comes from workers who commute in, and tourists, it is not self sustaining.

    Now take away most of the commuters and most of the tourists and most of those businesses will go under very quickly.

    That means tens of thousands of unemployed people, who live all over London: and now they can no longer afford to spend money in THEIR neighborhoods. The ripple has begun, and it is spreading beyond the centre.

    The closure of all these businesses also means a collapse in the tax take - for councils, and for the Inland Revenue. That means rates have to go up elsewhere in London, to compensate.

    Thus. More businesses go under, London becomes less attractive, rich people move out entirely, taxes have to go up even more as these taxpayers depart. And so on.

    An advanced economy like the UK is highly interconnected. It is a complex machine. Collapsing central London is like taking a hammer to the engine of that machine. It might still work, but it will go slower, and make weird noises, and maybe catch fire.

    Read what happened to New York City's economy in the 1960s and 70s. We could be about to see that replayed, but speeded up, in London (and New York, for that matter)

    So London may be about to take a hit. It can afford to do so.

    There's plenty of space in the rest of the country. If people aren't travelling into Central London and aren't spending in Central London shops they will be working somewhere else instead. If they are working in their own LOCAL area and spending within their own LOCAL area that is a good thing. It is not a bad thing.
    That’s a good point. Imagine if much of the more frothy activity in London is replaced by more grounded and value added activity in the likes of Nottingham. Perhaps we get that oft touted rebalancing of the economy by default. Or at least a step in that direction.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
    Let's hope so. It would be a hell of a political Houdini act if Boris can pull that one off and escape unscathed.
    The best observation I've learned today.

    Boris Johnson isn't a pathological liar, he genuinely means it when he says it, even if it contradicts something he's said in the past.

    Might work that into a future PB thread header.
    The best liars do believe it. They can beat the detector test that way.
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Interestingly, New York City is having exactly the same conversation. Is it going back to the 1970s?


    https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-could-face-worst-recession-1970s


    What NYC looked like, back then:


    https://allthatsinteresting.com/1970s-new-york-photos
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    isamisam Posts: 40,885
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072


    I was speaking to a former SPAD today and they said the expectation at Westminster and the EU is that it'll be like the withdrawal agreement all over again.

    The PM will capitulate to the EU and lie outright (like he did to the ERG and the DUP) about his brilliant new deal.

    Oh, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't help much on this point, which is about the readiness (or rather the near-total unreadiness) of the computer and administrative systems which will be needed irrespective of whether there is a deal. This is true both in government and in the businesses which are going to have to implement all this extra red tape. The situation has of course been made much worse by the fact that Covid-19 will have disrupted the whole public and private sector for months.
    The expectation is that apart from FOM it might end up being quite BINO with a long transition period, so plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
    Virtual certainty imo.
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
    Are you just a bit dim?

    Central London in all its glory - restaurants, bars, pubs, clubs, cafes, theatres, galleries - generates enormous amounts of money, and of course employment. But nearly all of this biz comes from workers who commute in, and tourists, it is not self sustaining.

    Now take away most of the commuters and most of the tourists and most of those businesses will go under very quickly.

    That means tens of thousands of unemployed people, who live all over London: and now they can no longer afford to spend money in THEIR neighborhoods. The ripple has begun, and it is spreading beyond the centre.

    The closure of all these businesses also means a collapse in the tax take - for councils, and for the Inland Revenue. That means rates have to go up elsewhere in London, to compensate.

    Thus. More businesses go under, London becomes less attractive, rich people move out entirely, taxes have to go up even more as these taxpayers depart. And so on.

    An advanced economy like the UK is highly interconnected. It is a complex machine. Collapsing central London is like taking a hammer to the engine of that machine. It might still work, but it will go slower, and make weird noises, and maybe catch fire.

    Read what happened to New York City's economy in the 1960s and 70s. We could be about to see that replayed, but speeded up, in London (and New York, for that matter)

    So London may be about to take a hit. It can afford to do so.

    There's plenty of space in the rest of the country. If people aren't travelling into Central London and aren't spending in Central London shops they will be working somewhere else instead. If they are working in their own LOCAL area and spending within their own LOCAL area that is a good thing. It is not a bad thing.
    That’s a good point. Imagine if much of the more frothy activity in London is replaced by more grounded and value added activity in the likes of Nottingham. Perhaps we get that oft touted rebalancing of the economy by default. Or at least a step in that direction.
    Colour me unsurprised, that a lefty is really happy that we are all going to be poorer, as long as we are all poorer together
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
    It will be a hell of a faff to go back and fish it out. I can't recall the exact date and I have not got it on floppy.

    But my clear recollection is of a surprising comment which stressed the high muscle/fat ratio of the Prime Minister. Is your recollection materially different?

    Maybe it's on your floppy in which case ... ??
    Surely, in terms of IT, it's more likely that it is the PM which is floppy, and your memory is crosswiring ...
    ☺ - he did look less than firm with that "press up".
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.
    Forgive him. Southerners don't know any better.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
    It will be a hell of a faff to go back and fish it out. I can't recall the exact date and I have not got it on floppy.

    But my clear recollection is of a surprising comment which stressed the high muscle/fat ratio of the Prime Minister. Is your recollection materially different?

    Maybe it's on your floppy in which case ... ??
    Whats wrong with "manly muscle". OK so I am bisexual so expressing my admiration for manly muscles may not be everyone's preference. But Shagger likes to do exercise (historically at least) and I know from my recent cycling obsession that biking makes for toned muscles. At least that was the public excuse when I started shaving my arms / legs...
    Are you 50/50 or more of a 75/25?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,488
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:



    You don't think London "taking a hit" will have any effect on the rest of the country?

    Yes, the economy will eventually adjust, one hopes. But London pays more tax than anywhere else in the UK by a distance and if that tax money goes AWOL then we will all suffer. That is certain.

    And there is a non-trivial risk that the shutdown of central London will cause a hideous chain reaction, the likes of which have not been seen in peacetime.

    A business can be shut down in a day. Starting a new viable business takes years.

    I'm sure all those tourists who used to crowd into central London and spend £££ will seamlessly shift into visiting the world-class attractions of places like Oldham, Hartlepool, Reading and Bognor Regis.
    Yes. If London is cancelled, that's basically the end of Britain's international tourist industry.

    People come to the UK mainly to see London. We don't have the Riviera, the Alps, Renaissance Tuscany, or oodles of Soanish sunshine. We don't have jungles, deserts or pyramids.

    Take out London and foreign people just might not bother at all.

    That's a tremendous blow to UK PLC.
    You have it the wrong way round. It is international tourism that has vaporised, with silent Covent Garden as the outcome. Ditto the tourist traps of most cities.

    Restaurants that people can walk or drive to will be the first to revive. I am off to the Isle of Wight for the weekend. Shall report back on pubs etc
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,707
    LadyG: just been reading your excellent posts about London. I`m with you . It is very concerning indeed.

    May be nationwide too, I think. I`m just back from a few nights in Dorset/Devon border. I was surprised and disappointed that only, I`d say, 25% of pubs were open. Maybe more have opened since I`ve got back? A higher proportion of cafes, though, are open - maybe 75%.

    Many shops are closed. Some have notices on the door saying lack of staff!

    We fancied having a browse round a particular clothes shop. It was of decent size. There was a queue outside with a notice saying "maximum four people in store at any time". If we had entered, my family of four would have stopped anyone else from entering, whilst we were merely having a browse with no real intent to buy anything. In the end we walked away. Businesses can not operate in this way. Many people (I have to say many on the left) seem to think things will magic back to normal.

    I`ve got friends who are no nearer coming out of hiding than they were a month ago. I have others who say they are "shielding" but have no clue that their ailments do not nearly qualify them for that status.

    Many were keen to hector about civic duty in (over)complying with lockdown, but don`t follow that through with a civic duty to get things going again in un-lockdown.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,032
    There was great excitement from my business partner, in that we can get £1000 per head for keeping on employees we were planning to keep on anyway. Let's hope it applies to Wales too.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    We lived in Central London for 30 years and loved it, now retired back to Cheshire. I think what you are seeing may be worse but not too different about what is happening everywhere in the UK on a smaller scale. Lots of local places are shutting for good.

    Part of the problem seems to me to be that a substantial minority of the public don't really give a shit about the virus spreading or the safety of others so it keeps others away.

    To give you an example we went into town on public transport today for the first time. We assumed that as it is compulsory to wear a mask we would be happy to do so only to find people on the bus without masks. I mentioned it to the driver who told me "we're not the police mate". So what is the point of making it compulsory if nobody enforces it? We won't be going into town to a restaurant again for a good while.

    What I find ironical is the very people who aren't giving a shit now will be the very ones whinging most loudly when the pubs close down again, the shops shut and businesses collapse.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,232
    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.
    Forgive him. Southerners don't know any better.
    Since when has Yorkshire been in the south?
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    Like I said, this is rife for abuse
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Like I said, this is rife for abuse
    Why is that abuse? It seems a reasonable policy objective to limit the number of people thrown into full unemployment, especially if you are hoping that things will gradually pick up.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,032

    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.

    Carnyx said:


    Nothing wrong with Hartlepool. I had an excellent day out there a couple of years back.

    I haven't personally had the pleasure of sampling the local guacamole, but I'm sure it's a delightful place. However, it doesn't quite have the density of interest required to make it a bucket-list tourist destination.
    Hartlepool's like the shittest part of Essex but with Geordie accents.
    Geordie accents? GEORDIE? Mate, you've not been to Pools and listened hard enough...

    Best thing about Hartlepools? A lot of roads out.
    Forgive him. Southerners don't know any better.
    Since when has Yorkshire been in the south?
    University friends from Bolton and Leeds considered Sheffield to be the gateway to the South.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,072
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    ON topic.

    Something really BAD may be happening in central London. Businesswise

    Close friend just went to Charing Cross Rd. Half the bookshops are still shut, also the restaurants, bars, etc.

    Why? Presumably there isn't yet enough passing traffic and footfall to make it profitable to open. But when will it ever be? So many people are going to WFH for months to come, which means these places will stay shut, which means even fewer people - eg tourists - will come in to town, as there are even fewer reasons to make the journey, which means even more places shut down for ever.

    We could be witnessing the start of a hideous chain reaction of default and bankruptcy, hollowing out a global city in a few months.

    I pray I am wrong.

    Inevitable - very few people live in Central, Central London anymore. All the shops, restaurants etc are priced and setup for millions of people who come into the very centre each day.

    Now they are not - perhaps 90% down.
    It feels almost inevitable. Soho might be alright as its still THE nightlife destination.

    But somewhere like Covent Garden, which is mainly retail and restaurants and tourist traps? - fecked. It is very sad.

    And this pain will start in central London, but then it will ripple out....

    Why would it ripple out?

    A bit less of an obsession about London could be good for the rest of us.
    Are you just a bit dim?

    Central London in all its glory - restaurants, bars, pubs, clubs, cafes, theatres, galleries - generates enormous amounts of money, and of course employment. But nearly all of this biz comes from workers who commute in, and tourists, it is not self sustaining.

    Now take away most of the commuters and most of the tourists and most of those businesses will go under very quickly.

    That means tens of thousands of unemployed people, who live all over London: and now they can no longer afford to spend money in THEIR neighborhoods. The ripple has begun, and it is spreading beyond the centre.

    The closure of all these businesses also means a collapse in the tax take - for councils, and for the Inland Revenue. That means rates have to go up elsewhere in London, to compensate.

    Thus. More businesses go under, London becomes less attractive, rich people move out entirely, taxes have to go up even more as these taxpayers depart. And so on.

    An advanced economy like the UK is highly interconnected. It is a complex machine. Collapsing central London is like taking a hammer to the engine of that machine. It might still work, but it will go slower, and make weird noises, and maybe catch fire.

    Read what happened to New York City's economy in the 1960s and 70s. We could be about to see that replayed, but speeded up, in London (and New York, for that matter)

    So London may be about to take a hit. It can afford to do so.

    There's plenty of space in the rest of the country. If people aren't travelling into Central London and aren't spending in Central London shops they will be working somewhere else instead. If they are working in their own LOCAL area and spending within their own LOCAL area that is a good thing. It is not a bad thing.
    That’s a good point. Imagine if much of the more frothy activity in London is replaced by more grounded and value added activity in the likes of Nottingham. Perhaps we get that oft touted rebalancing of the economy by default. Or at least a step in that direction.
    Colour me unsurprised, that a lefty is really happy that we are all going to be poorer, as long as we are all poorer together
    I'm talking about a levelling UP - of Nottingham et al.

    It was in the Tory manifesto.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,488

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    humbugger said:

    Dodds performance very poor, and Sunak has demolished it in response.

    Labour has a better leader than Corbyn now but a worse Shadow Chancellor than McDonnell (even though personally as a Tory I would prefer Dodds)
    McDonnell, the best Chancellor we nearly but never had?

    Certainly a case can be made.
    That has to go on a list.
    :smile: - Go for it.

    As to THE list. Now 8 fold. Will soon need a new sheet of paper at this rate.
    From memory only 2 of the 8 were things I've actually said rather than you misrepresenting me.
    No. They are all 100% pukka except - arguably - that you said Boris Johnson was "very muscly". That does have a slight element of exaggeration. The exact words were that he was "17 and a half stone but it's mainly muscle".
    I absolutely never said "mainly muscle" that is a categorical lie you are saying.
    Not a lie. But happy to move on and not mention it again for ages.
    It is a complete and utter fabrication and lie. You put in quotation marks that I said "mainly muscle", please quote me using those words or be prepared to admit that you fabricated that and I never said it and you are lying.
    It will be a hell of a faff to go back and fish it out. I can't recall the exact date and I have not got it on floppy.

    But my clear recollection is of a surprising comment which stressed the high muscle/fat ratio of the Prime Minister. Is your recollection materially different?

    Maybe it's on your floppy in which case ... ??
    Whats wrong with "manly muscle". OK so I am bisexual so expressing my admiration for manly muscles may not be everyone's preference. But Shagger likes to do exercise (historically at least) and I know from my recent cycling obsession that biking makes for toned muscles. At least that was the public excuse when I started shaving my arms / legs...
    How do you feel about moobs?
This discussion has been closed.