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  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    On 1 - see my comment below, removing rights purchased from UK fishermen and you've created a whole world of court cases which I suspect the Government would lose.

    I think RCS is very much overstating the degree of foreign control of British licences for a start.

    According to the New Economics Foundation, in 2019 the total value of UK fishing quotas was £891 million. Of that only £186 million was foreign owned - around 20%. In addition any quotas held by other EU countries will have very little if any non EU ownership because they deal with their quotas in a different way with quotas belonging to the Government not the individual fishermen or vessels.
    You do need to include wet leases, where the quota is owned by a British firm (or other entity) but the actual boat is neither owned nor operated by Brits.
    And a lot of the British registered companies holding the quota are foreign owned because our fishermen sold them.
    That is already included in the NEF numbers I quoted.
    Really, that seems very unlikely given the extra effort that would be required to check the ownership of a company (which can be easily hidden)..
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003

    Starmer making the case for the Union is to win seats in England, not Scotland. That's the play.

    If he can become hated by Sturgeon, even better

    Hatred is not Sturgeon’s modus operandi. She fought Glasgow Labour for many long years before first winning. They taught her that hatred, in which they specialised (eg. George Galloway), was a one-way route to failure.

    Starmer is welcome to make a case for the Union. I wish a Unionist occasionally would. Not seen one even try for several decades
    Just a reminder, you lost in 2014
    Indeed. Hatred won in 2014. Love lost.
    I see very little love coming from nationalists
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    algarkirk said:

    welshowl said:

    nichomar said:

    Boris is obsessed with fishing. Nobody outside of a tiny minority gives a shit about fishing, let’s be real here.

    My Scottish family do and with a passion.

    Their communities were founded on fishing
    And they will be in the tiny minority. North Shields on Tyneside was “founded on fishing” and yet the Fish Quay, whilst still being a working fishing port, is full of edgy bars and flats these days.
    It does not mean that fishing is not a big issue in the North East Scottish fishing communities
    Fishing is a massive issue Mr G, crazy but true.

    If Boris 'betrays' those fishermen (persons?) he can forget leading the tories into the next election and I would doubt the tories would form the next government.

    We want those waters. We want to tell Frenchman and Spaniards they cannot fish there even if we don;t want to fish there ourselves. Are we right to want that at the expense of much else? I don;t know, but I know its true.

    Fishing really is that big.
    Well we shouldn’t have sold them the quotas
    Maybe the EEC shouldn’t have dreamt up the Common Fisheries Policy back in the early 70’s just so it could make a grab for fishing rights ( or natural resources as they are) of the then four prospective joiners, the UK, Ireland, Denmark, and Norway who just so happened to bring with them vast oceans which the EEC did not possess, but which could force them to hand over as a joining fee of acquis communautaire. Norway voted not to join of course, partly because of this issue I’m sure.

    Just imagine if Spain Italy Greece and Portugal joined, and the northerners dreamt up a Common Citrus Fruit Policy and said hand over your lemon groves because we’ve not got any.

    It was a total injustice 50 years ago, that may be close to being at least partially righted, and despite its minuscule economic value the whole issue has become far more totemic than Barnier wanted I’m sure. Maybe they should’ve been a bit more circumspect about screwing us over on this in the 70’s in the first place? What goes around and all that.
    You must realise how out of touch you are, right?
    This 'out of touch' argument seems quite well founded and decently argued to me. Could Gallowgate tell us what's wrong with it?

    I already have. @welshowl is treating “fishing” like an issue of significant national importance, when actually no normal person gives a hoot.
    It’s not if any great import economically ( a few costal places aside), but it’s symbolic of what was wrong from day one in 1973.

    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple. All the fine talk of esprit communautaire was just that- talk. It would’ve been far better for the EEC to have left this well alone, but no, they felt they had the whip hand and they used it. The result was it went on to the list of things we weren’t entirely comfortable with, with the rebate, FOM, the ECJ etc. Niggling like a stone in a shoe. It even played a role in 2016 when Geldof decided to sail down the Thames to have an “easy” go at Farage and ended up being confronted by some fisher folk.

    It was all so unnecessary by the EEC/EU, precisely because it is such a small industry. But here we are 50 years on and it’s a major issue now way out of all proportion to its monetary worth.

    The EU overplaying it’s strong hand (again!!!) in microcosm.
    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple.

    That's a little simplistic.

    The founding principle of the EU is the free movement of goods, services and people. That means that the British box system, which allowed only UK and Irish fishermen to own rights to fish in the jointly administered territorial waters of the UK and Ireland.

    Not allowing those to be owned by non-British/Irish entities would have breached the "free movement" clause of the treaties, and so the CFP was created. And for a decade or so, only UK and Irish fishermen owned these quotas.

    With the accession of two more countries with Atlantic fishing (Spain and Portugal), we started to see industrial fishing vessels and fleets that displaced 10x what a smaller British trawler did. With just twice the number of people, they could catch 10x the fish. And so, the Spanish fishing concerns bought up quotas from British fishermen, as they could pay the equivalent of 10 years or so of fishing revenues for them - and the fisherman wouldn't have to get up early to do back breaking work.
    Sorry Robert but this is wrong. Or at least misleading. Prior to the UK/Denmark/Ireland accession there was no CFP for the existing EEC countries fishing in the North Sea, the Baltic or the Med. They were perfectly happy for fishing to be a national competence before then. It was only when those countries with very large fishing areas - the UK, Ireland and Norway - were looking to join that the CFP was devised. That gave quotas for fishing in British and Irish waters (the Norwegians had more sense than to join in the end) to other EEC countries from the very start.
    Very large areas were themselves an innovation, and one that the UK fought against because it meant losing fishing rights in Icelandic waters.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395

    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    algarkirk said:

    welshowl said:

    nichomar said:

    Boris is obsessed with fishing. Nobody outside of a tiny minority gives a shit about fishing, let’s be real here.

    My Scottish family do and with a passion.

    Their communities were founded on fishing
    And they will be in the tiny minority. North Shields on Tyneside was “founded on fishing” and yet the Fish Quay, whilst still being a working fishing port, is full of edgy bars and flats these days.
    It does not mean that fishing is not a big issue in the North East Scottish fishing communities
    Fishing is a massive issue Mr G, crazy but true.

    If Boris 'betrays' those fishermen (persons?) he can forget leading the tories into the next election and I would doubt the tories would form the next government.

    We want those waters. We want to tell Frenchman and Spaniards they cannot fish there even if we don;t want to fish there ourselves. Are we right to want that at the expense of much else? I don;t know, but I know its true.

    Fishing really is that big.
    Well we shouldn’t have sold them the quotas
    Maybe the EEC shouldn’t have dreamt up the Common Fisheries Policy back in the early 70’s just so it could make a grab for fishing rights ( or natural resources as they are) of the then four prospective joiners, the UK, Ireland, Denmark, and Norway who just so happened to bring with them vast oceans which the EEC did not possess, but which could force them to hand over as a joining fee of acquis communautaire. Norway voted not to join of course, partly because of this issue I’m sure.

    Just imagine if Spain Italy Greece and Portugal joined, and the northerners dreamt up a Common Citrus Fruit Policy and said hand over your lemon groves because we’ve not got any.

    It was a total injustice 50 years ago, that may be close to being at least partially righted, and despite its minuscule economic value the whole issue has become far more totemic than Barnier wanted I’m sure. Maybe they should’ve been a bit more circumspect about screwing us over on this in the 70’s in the first place? What goes around and all that.
    You must realise how out of touch you are, right?
    This 'out of touch' argument seems quite well founded and decently argued to me. Could Gallowgate tell us what's wrong with it?

    I already have. @welshowl is treating “fishing” like an issue of significant national importance, when actually no normal person gives a hoot.
    It’s not if any great import economically ( a few costal places aside), but it’s symbolic of what was wrong from day one in 1973.

    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple. All the fine talk of esprit communautaire was just that- talk. It would’ve been far better for the EEC to have left this well alone, but no, they felt they had the whip hand and they used it. The result was it went on to the list of things we weren’t entirely comfortable with, with the rebate, FOM, the ECJ etc. Niggling like a stone in a shoe. It even played a role in 2016 when Geldof decided to sail down the Thames to have an “easy” go at Farage and ended up being confronted by some fisher folk.

    It was all so unnecessary by the EEC/EU, precisely because it is such a small industry. But here we are 50 years on and it’s a major issue now way out of all proportion to its monetary worth.

    The EU overplaying it’s strong hand (again!!!) in microcosm.
    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple.

    That's a little simplistic.

    The founding principle of the EU is the free movement of goods, services and people. That means that the British box system, which allowed only UK and Irish fishermen to own rights to fish in the jointly administered territorial waters of the UK and Ireland.

    Not allowing those to be owned by non-British/Irish entities would have breached the "free movement" clause of the treaties, and so the CFP was created. And for a decade or so, only UK and Irish fishermen owned these quotas.

    With the accession of two more countries with Atlantic fishing (Spain and Portugal), we started to see industrial fishing vessels and fleets that displaced 10x what a smaller British trawler did. With just twice the number of people, they could catch 10x the fish. And so, the Spanish fishing concerns bought up quotas from British fishermen, as they could pay the equivalent of 10 years or so of fishing revenues for them - and the fisherman wouldn't have to get up early to do back breaking work.
    Sorry Robert but this is wrong. Or at least misleading. Prior to the UK/Denmark/Ireland accession there was no CFP for the existing EEC countries fishing in the North Sea, the Baltic or the Med. They were perfectly happy for fishing to be a national competence before then. It was only when those countries with very large fishing areas - the UK, Ireland and Norway - were looking to join that the CFP was devised. That gave quotas for fishing in British and Irish waters (the Norwegians had more sense than to join in the end) to other EEC countries from the very start.
    On fishing, I'd be very surprised if Boris gave way. It may not be economically important, but it's hugely useful in Scotland politically. And we've seen BJ waking up to the Scottish problem. SNP hate it when they are accused of wanting to hand fishing back to the EU - no plausible answer to the charge.

    On Indy, generally. I'm struck how strong Starmer and his Shadow SoS for Scotland, Ian Murray are on the subject. They are not going to allow themselves to be stitched up as Sturgeon puppets as Miliband was. Boris can rule out IndyRef2 with impunity.

    Another counter-intuitive thought at a time of Sturgeon worship. The SNP's strength is its ability to draw support from Left and Right in Scotland. But that can also be its weakness. Beyond a hardcore of, say, 20% or so, who put Indy above all else, they are vulnerable to being squeezed if politics becomes about economics and services. We saw in 2017 how they were rattled by Scots Tory revival. Labour, if they get their act together, are far more dangerous than the Tories as most Scots feel fairly benign to the party. They could revive. Stranger things have happened (as we have seen).
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Scott_xP said:
    Cummings loathed the MSM before Durham

    We can only imagine how he thinks about them now.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,163

    Starmer making the case for the Union is to win seats in England, not Scotland. That's the play.

    If he can become hated by Sturgeon, even better

    Hatred is not Sturgeon’s modus operandi. She fought Glasgow Labour for many long years before first winning. They taught her that hatred, in which they specialised (eg. George Galloway), was a one-way route to failure.

    Starmer is welcome to make a case for the Union. I wish a Unionist occasionally would. Not seen one even try for several decades
    Just a reminder, you lost in 2014
    Since 2014 England has come down with a bad case of the Johnsons.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited July 2020
    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
  • Dan Hodges is making excuses to come back to Labour. Welcome back Dan, we'll have you
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    On 1 - see my comment below, removing rights purchased from UK fishermen and you've created a whole world of court cases which I suspect the Government would lose.

    I think RCS is very much overstating the degree of foreign control of British licences for a start.

    According to the New Economics Foundation, in 2019 the total value of UK fishing quotas was £891 million. Of that only £186 million was foreign owned - around 20%. In addition any quotas held by other EU countries will have very little if any non EU ownership because they deal with their quotas in a different way with quotas belonging to the Government not the individual fishermen or vessels.
    You do need to include wet leases, where the quota is owned by a British firm (or other entity) but the actual boat is neither owned nor operated by Brits.
    And a lot of the British registered companies holding the quota are foreign owned because our fishermen sold them.
    That is already included in the NEF numbers I quoted.
    A better indication comes from here: https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/27/mmo-fisheries-statistics-2017-eez/
    "The three other EU Member States landing the most value from UK waters were:

    France (120,000 tonnes, £171 million)
    Netherlands (177,000 tonnes, £92 million)
    Denmark (237,000 tonnes, £90 million)"

    This is fish scooped (perfectly legally) from UK waters but not landed here because the fish are processed elsewhere. I have to say that I was surprised that Spain was not on that list but maybe that is more of a Scottish issue. The same piece contains the figures for fish taken from other EU waters by the UK fleet. It is much smaller.

    As I have said before there are many thousand more jobs at stake in the processing of the fish than there is in the fishing. Any new quotas for the UK should require the fish caught to be landed here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Starmer making the case for the Union is to win seats in England, not Scotland. That's the play.

    If he can become hated by Sturgeon, even better

    Hatred is not Sturgeon’s modus operandi. She fought Glasgow Labour for many long years before first winning. They taught her that hatred, in which they specialised (eg. George Galloway), was a one-way route to failure.

    Starmer is welcome to make a case for the Union. I wish a Unionist occasionally would. Not seen one even try for several decades
    Just a reminder, you lost in 2014
    Indeed. Hatred won in 2014. Love lost.
    LOL. I mean there is delusion and there is complete fantasy.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    On 1 - see my comment below, removing rights purchased from UK fishermen and you've created a whole world of court cases which I suspect the Government would lose.

    I think RCS is very much overstating the degree of foreign control of British licences for a start.

    According to the New Economics Foundation, in 2019 the total value of UK fishing quotas was £891 million. Of that only £186 million was foreign owned - around 20%. In addition any quotas held by other EU countries will have very little if any non EU ownership because they deal with their quotas in a different way with quotas belonging to the Government not the individual fishermen or vessels.
    You do need to include wet leases, where the quota is owned by a British firm (or other entity) but the actual boat is neither owned nor operated by Brits.
    And a lot of the British registered companies holding the quota are foreign owned because our fishermen sold them.
    That is already included in the NEF numbers I quoted.
    A better indication comes from here: https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/27/mmo-fisheries-statistics-2017-eez/
    "The three other EU Member States landing the most value from UK waters were:

    France (120,000 tonnes, £171 million)
    Netherlands (177,000 tonnes, £92 million)
    Denmark (237,000 tonnes, £90 million)"

    This is fish scooped (perfectly legally) from UK waters but not landed here because the fish are processed elsewhere. I have to say that I was surprised that Spain was not on that list but maybe that is more of a Scottish issue. The same piece contains the figures for fish taken from other EU waters by the UK fleet. It is much smaller.

    As I have said before there are many thousand more jobs at stake in the processing of the fish than there is in the fishing. Any new quotas for the UK should require the fish caught to be landed here.
    But the numbers you have quoted there are for French, Dutch and Danish quotas to fish legally in UK waters, not for what we were talking about which is fish taken by foreign owned vessels under UK quotas.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:
    Depends who is calling and why surely?

    Maybe the PMs office has more to deal with during a pandemic and Brexit negotiations etc than the LOTO does?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    On 1 - see my comment below, removing rights purchased from UK fishermen and you've created a whole world of court cases which I suspect the Government would lose.

    I think RCS is very much overstating the degree of foreign control of British licences for a start.

    According to the New Economics Foundation, in 2019 the total value of UK fishing quotas was £891 million. Of that only £186 million was foreign owned - around 20%. In addition any quotas held by other EU countries will have very little if any non EU ownership because they deal with their quotas in a different way with quotas belonging to the Government not the individual fishermen or vessels.
    You do need to include wet leases, where the quota is owned by a British firm (or other entity) but the actual boat is neither owned nor operated by Brits.
    And a lot of the British registered companies holding the quota are foreign owned because our fishermen sold them.
    That is already included in the NEF numbers I quoted.
    A better indication comes from here: https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/27/mmo-fisheries-statistics-2017-eez/
    "The three other EU Member States landing the most value from UK waters were:

    France (120,000 tonnes, £171 million)
    Netherlands (177,000 tonnes, £92 million)
    Denmark (237,000 tonnes, £90 million)"

    This is fish scooped (perfectly legally) from UK waters but not landed here because the fish are processed elsewhere. I have to say that I was surprised that Spain was not on that list but maybe that is more of a Scottish issue. The same piece contains the figures for fish taken from other EU waters by the UK fleet. It is much smaller.

    As I have said before there are many thousand more jobs at stake in the processing of the fish than there is in the fishing. Any new quotas for the UK should require the fish caught to be landed here.
    But the numbers you have quoted there are for French, Dutch and Danish quotas to fish legally in UK waters, not for what we were talking about which is fish taken by foreign owned vessels under UK quotas.
    Its fish from UK waters that is landed in other countries.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    On 1 - see my comment below, removing rights purchased from UK fishermen and you've created a whole world of court cases which I suspect the Government would lose.

    I think RCS is very much overstating the degree of foreign control of British licences for a start.

    According to the New Economics Foundation, in 2019 the total value of UK fishing quotas was £891 million. Of that only £186 million was foreign owned - around 20%. In addition any quotas held by other EU countries will have very little if any non EU ownership because they deal with their quotas in a different way with quotas belonging to the Government not the individual fishermen or vessels.
    You do need to include wet leases, where the quota is owned by a British firm (or other entity) but the actual boat is neither owned nor operated by Brits.
    And a lot of the British registered companies holding the quota are foreign owned because our fishermen sold them.
    That is already included in the NEF numbers I quoted.
    Really, that seems very unlikely given the extra effort that would be required to check the ownership of a company (which can be easily hidden)..
    The NEF seem to have done a lot of work on this.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    Indeed but what about if you had bought a fishing licence in good faith from someone and were suddenly told it was worthless and you couldn't fish. Its a bit like buying farming land from someone in, say, France, and being told you couldn;t farm, isn;t it?
    Its not that unusual in the EU though. Various rights which transferred for large sums of money such as Milk quota and the right to various subsidies re livestock have either disappeared or been materially changed in their operation as policies changed. Fishing quota is a man made artificial construct and it is up to us to determine how it is allocated once we are free of CFP commitments.
    How fishing quotas are allocated is up to national governments under the CFP and different member states have very different policies.
    That is true but as Robert has already pointed out those policies require to be compatible with EU law in respect of freedom of movement for people and businesses. You cannot discriminate in favour of your own population to the detriment of other EU citizens.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    On 1 - see my comment below, removing rights purchased from UK fishermen and you've created a whole world of court cases which I suspect the Government would lose.

    I think RCS is very much overstating the degree of foreign control of British licences for a start.

    According to the New Economics Foundation, in 2019 the total value of UK fishing quotas was £891 million. Of that only £186 million was foreign owned - around 20%. In addition any quotas held by other EU countries will have very little if any non EU ownership because they deal with their quotas in a different way with quotas belonging to the Government not the individual fishermen or vessels.
    You do need to include wet leases, where the quota is owned by a British firm (or other entity) but the actual boat is neither owned nor operated by Brits.
    And a lot of the British registered companies holding the quota are foreign owned because our fishermen sold them.
    That is already included in the NEF numbers I quoted.
    A better indication comes from here: https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/27/mmo-fisheries-statistics-2017-eez/
    "The three other EU Member States landing the most value from UK waters were:

    France (120,000 tonnes, £171 million)
    Netherlands (177,000 tonnes, £92 million)
    Denmark (237,000 tonnes, £90 million)"

    This is fish scooped (perfectly legally) from UK waters but not landed here because the fish are processed elsewhere. I have to say that I was surprised that Spain was not on that list but maybe that is more of a Scottish issue. The same piece contains the figures for fish taken from other EU waters by the UK fleet. It is much smaller.

    As I have said before there are many thousand more jobs at stake in the processing of the fish than there is in the fishing. Any new quotas for the UK should require the fish caught to be landed here.
    But the numbers you have quoted there are for French, Dutch and Danish quotas to fish legally in UK waters, not for what we were talking about which is fish taken by foreign owned vessels under UK quotas.
    Its fish from UK waters that is landed in other countries.
    And is something that will be dealt with directly by the negotiations or, if they fail, will revert to the UK with those quotas being lost to those countries. What we are talking about are the claims that it will be difficult to regain control of UK quotas that have been sold on to other owners. That is what the discussion has been about.

    Bear in mind that the UK is unusual in that in many other countries, as William rightly points out below, they have different systems where quotas are held by the Government not by the boats and therefore cannot be bought and sold. In that case it would have to be an EU government suing the UK not an individual. It then becomes politics rather than law.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Scott_xP said:
    Depends who is calling and why surely?

    Maybe the PMs office has more to deal with during a pandemic and Brexit negotiations etc than the LOTO does?
    Does Number 10 pay you for your time? They really should.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
    I am genuinely sorry that you do not hold the Nation State in the same respect. Without it we would be hard pressed to maintain our democracy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
    I am genuinely sorry that you do not hold the Nation State in the same respect. Without it we would be hard pressed to maintain our democracy.
    Maintain? Based on your definition we have never been a democracy.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    Indeed but what about if you had bought a fishing licence in good faith from someone and were suddenly told it was worthless and you couldn't fish. Its a bit like buying farming land from someone in, say, France, and being told you couldn;t farm, isn;t it?
    Its not that unusual in the EU though. Various rights which transferred for large sums of money such as Milk quota and the right to various subsidies re livestock have either disappeared or been materially changed in their operation as policies changed. Fishing quota is a man made artificial construct and it is up to us to determine how it is allocated once we are free of CFP commitments.
    How fishing quotas are allocated is up to national governments under the CFP and different member states have very different policies.
    That is true but as Robert has already pointed out those policies require to be compatible with EU law in respect of freedom of movement for people and businesses. You cannot discriminate in favour of your own population to the detriment of other EU citizens.
    And yet there is practically no foreign ownership of French or Dutch fishing quotas.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    They've already been gradually imposing their will, and needed only wait to be able to do so completely, but have been impatient and started ramping up. I think resistance will be briefer than many would hope, so brutal suppression will be limited by that more than anything else.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    It would be grossly immoral, disgraceful, if we gave any hint to the brave people of HK that we were going to intervene in any way to save them when that is beyond our power. And I fear that is what is going to happen when they read too much into our leaders highly principled nonsense. I think we are going to end up with blood on our hands.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    TimT said:

    Fishing said:

    Chinese imperialism is modelled on English imperialism. It was you guys who learnt them the ropes.

    No, Chinese imperialism existed long before the British (Scots were imperialists, just like the English) variety. Indeed, long before the English were even a nation.
    Wasn't the reason for the Union failed Scottish imperialism?

    (Ducks and takes cover)
    We are well used to that kind of stupidity and ignorance re Scotland on here.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    That is what happens when you have no policies to discuss

    You don't pick up the phone.

    Worrying
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
    I am genuinely sorry that you do not hold the Nation State in the same respect. Without it we would be hard pressed to maintain our democracy.
    I'm happy to contemplate a world of peacefully co-existing Nation States none of whom are seeking to "make themselves great" or any of that nationalistic nonsense.

    Unfortunately some of them - including the two biggest and most powerful - do not seem to share my vision at the present time.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    kle4 said:

    Chinese imperialism is modelled on English imperialism. It was you guys who learnt them the ropes.

    Oh please, you think the English invented imperialism or something? That they have patented a version of it?

    That's so absurdly ridiculous it cannot even be taken seriously as an attempt to troll.
    One the many hilarious things about Scottish nationalism is the attempt to pretend that the British Empire had nothing to do with Scots.
    F Off you stupid tosser, funniest thing is plonkers like you that think you are special.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003
    Scott_xP said:

    That is what happens when you have no policies to discuss

    You don't pick up the phone.

    Worrying
    Everything worries you Scott
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    Scott_xP said:
    Depends who is calling and why surely?

    Maybe the PMs office has more to deal with during a pandemic and Brexit negotiations etc than the LOTO does?
    It's not like Boris answers the phones himself, and HMG's media team will be orders of magnitude bigger than Labour's.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    edited July 2020
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    It would be grossly immoral, disgraceful, if we gave any hint to the brave people of HK that we were going to intervene in any way to save them when that is beyond our power. And I fear that is what is going to happen when they read too much into our leaders highly principled nonsense. I think we are going to end up with blood on our hands.
    They will huff and puff and do nothing other than leave them in the lurch.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Might be updated later

    Diagnosticados últimas 24 horas: 971 Diagnosticados últimos 7 días: 10220 Diagnosticados últimos 14 días: 16410 Incidencia Acumulada (IA): 34,9 Número reproductivo básico (Rt): 0,9
    Fallecidos:28.429
    Fallecidos últimos 7 días: 7
    Recuperados:18-05-2020150.376
    Hospitalizados: 126.241 Hospitalizados últimos 7 días: 296 UCI: 11.741 UCI últimos 7 días: 15
    PCR totales: 2.536.234
    PCR/1000 hab: 53,8 Incremento capacidad PCR última semana:
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Who will UK fishermen sell to given the EU buys most especially in terms of seafood . So no trade deal and those will be hit with large tariffs . Some seem to think it’s Brexit heresy to allow any EU boats in UK waters.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Does Labour really need to improve its favourability among students any further?

    Labour would 'rescue any university going bust'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53518651
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    -snip-



    Sorry Robert but this is wrong. Or at least misleading. Prior to the UK/Denmark/Ireland accession there was no CFP for the existing EEC countries fishing in the North Sea, the Baltic or the Med. They were perfectly happy for fishing to be a national competence before then. It was only when those countries with very large fishing areas - the UK, Ireland and Norway - were looking to join that the CFP was devised. That gave quotas for fishing in British and Irish waters (the Norwegians had more sense than to join in the end) to other EEC countries from the very start.

    Absolutely right. In fact I was offered a job in the "cabinet" of Finn Olav Gundelach, the first fishing commissioner in 1973.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    algarkirk said:

    welshowl said:

    nichomar said:

    Boris is obsessed with fishing. Nobody outside of a tiny minority gives a shit about fishing, let’s be real here.

    My Scottish family do and with a passion.

    Their communities were founded on fishing
    And they will be in the tiny minority. North Shields on Tyneside was “founded on fishing” and yet the Fish Quay, whilst still being a working fishing port, is full of edgy bars and flats these days.
    It does not mean that fishing is not a big issue in the North East Scottish fishing communities
    Fishing is a massive issue Mr G, crazy but true.

    If Boris 'betrays' those fishermen (persons?) he can forget leading the tories into the next election and I would doubt the tories would form the next government.

    We want those waters. We want to tell Frenchman and Spaniards they cannot fish there even if we don;t want to fish there ourselves. Are we right to want that at the expense of much else? I don;t know, but I know its true.

    Fishing really is that big.
    Well we shouldn’t have sold them the quotas
    Maybe the EEC shouldn’t have dreamt up the Common Fisheries Policy back in the early 70’s just so it could make a grab for fishing rights ( or natural resources as they are) of the then four prospective joiners, the UK, Ireland, Denmark, and Norway who just so happened to bring with them vast oceans which the EEC did not possess, but which could force them to hand over as a joining fee of acquis communautaire. Norway voted not to join of course, partly because of this issue I’m sure.

    Just imagine if Spain Italy Greece and Portugal joined, and the northerners dreamt up a Common Citrus Fruit Policy and said hand over your lemon groves because we’ve not got any.

    It was a total injustice 50 years ago, that may be close to being at least partially righted, and despite its minuscule economic value the whole issue has become far more totemic than Barnier wanted I’m sure. Maybe they should’ve been a bit more circumspect about screwing us over on this in the 70’s in the first place? What goes around and all that.
    You must realise how out of touch you are, right?
    This 'out of touch' argument seems quite well founded and decently argued to me. Could Gallowgate tell us what's wrong with it?

    I already have. @welshowl is treating “fishing” like an issue of significant national importance, when actually no normal person gives a hoot.
    It’s not if any great import economically ( a few costal places aside), but it’s symbolic of what was wrong from day one in 1973.

    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple. All the fine talk of esprit communautaire was just that- talk. It would’ve been far better for the EEC to have left this well alone, but no, they felt they had the whip hand and they used it. The result was it went on to the list of things we weren’t entirely comfortable with, with the rebate, FOM, the ECJ etc. Niggling like a stone in a shoe. It even played a role in 2016 when Geldof decided to sail down the Thames to have an “easy” go at Farage and ended up being confronted by some fisher folk.

    It was all so unnecessary by the EEC/EU, precisely because it is such a small industry. But here we are 50 years on and it’s a major issue now way out of all proportion to its monetary worth.

    The EU overplaying it’s strong hand (again!!!) in microcosm.
    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple.

    That's a little simplistic.

    The founding principle of the EU is the free movement of goods, services and people. That means that the British box system, which allowed only UK and Irish fishermen to own rights to fish in the jointly administered territorial waters of the UK and Ireland.

    Not allowing those to be owned by non-British/Irish entities would have breached the "free movement" clause of the treaties, and so the CFP was created. And for a decade or so, only UK and Irish fishermen owned these quotas.

    With the accession of two more countries with Atlantic fishing (Spain and Portugal), we started to see industrial fishing vessels and fleets that displaced 10x what a smaller British trawler did. With just twice the number of people, they could catch 10x the fish. And so, the Spanish fishing concerns bought up quotas from British fishermen, as they could pay the equivalent of 10 years or so of fishing revenues for them - and the fisherman wouldn't have to get up early to do back breaking work.
    Sorry Robert but this is wrong. Or at least misleading. Prior to the UK/Denmark/Ireland accession there was no CFP for the existing EEC countries fishing in the North Sea, the Baltic or the Med. They were perfectly happy for fishing to be a national competence before then. It was only when those countries with very large fishing areas - the UK, Ireland and Norway - were looking to join that the CFP was devised. That gave quotas for fishing in British and Irish waters (the Norwegians had more sense than to join in the end) to other EEC countries from the very start.
    On fishing, I'd be very surprised if Boris gave way. It may not be economically important, but it's hugely useful in Scotland politically. And we've seen BJ waking up to the Scottish problem. SNP hate it when they are accused of wanting to hand fishing back to the EU - no plausible answer to the charge.

    On Indy, generally. I'm struck how strong Starmer and his Shadow SoS for Scotland, Ian Murray are on the subject. They are not going to allow themselves to be stitched up as Sturgeon puppets as Miliband was. Boris can rule out IndyRef2 with impunity.

    Another counter-intuitive thought at a time of Sturgeon worship. The SNP's strength is its ability to draw support from Left and Right in Scotland. But that can also be its weakness. Beyond a hardcore of, say, 20% or so, who put Indy above all else, they are vulnerable to being squeezed if politics becomes about economics and services. We saw in 2017 how they were rattled by Scots Tory revival. Labour, if they get their act together, are far more dangerous than the Tories as most Scots feel fairly benign to the party. They could revive. Stranger things have happened (as we have seen).
    LOL, more bollox on how SNP are doomed, you must be kidding , I can just see Labour reviving with Tory Murray leading the charge. When will next big beast come up from down south to quell the natives.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003
    nico67 said:

    Who will UK fishermen sell to given the EU buys most especially in terms of seafood . So no trade deal and those will be hit with large tariffs . Some seem to think it’s Brexit heresy to allow any EU boats in UK waters.

    Fishing in UK waters is a matter for HMG to agree post Brexit
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    kle4 said:

    Does Labour really need to improve its favourability among students any further?

    Labour would 'rescue any university going bust'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53518651

    That has very little to do with getting support from students!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    They've already been gradually imposing their will, and needed only wait to be able to do so completely, but have been impatient and started ramping up. I think resistance will be briefer than many would hope, so brutal suppression will be limited by that more than anything else.
    I think prolonged mass resistance would probably work - i.e. force concessions - but HK is part of China and its integration over time is surely inevitable.

    As for whether there will be prolonged mass resistance, I don't know. I don't have a good sense of that.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    Does Labour really need to improve its favourability among students any further?

    Labour would 'rescue any university going bust'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53518651

    That has very little to do with getting support from students!
    Back to the 50% mantra.

    This is a nonsense for post covid
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited July 2020

    nico67 said:

    Who will UK fishermen sell to given the EU buys most especially in terms of seafood . So no trade deal and those will be hit with large tariffs . Some seem to think it’s Brexit heresy to allow any EU boats in UK waters.

    Fishing in UK waters is a matter for HMG to agree post Brexit
    No, it isn't, not solely [edit]. The devolved nations have control of their waters under the devoluition settlement, in Scotland's case at least. "Marine Scotland is responsible for controlling the activities of all fishing vessels operating within the Scottish zone, as defined by the Fishery Limits Act 1976 and the Scotland Act 1998. This covers the North Sea and west of Scotland out to 200 nautical miles. It is also responsible for managing and controlling the activities of Scottish vessels wherever they may fish – including fishing effort and quota. To do this Marine Scotland works with the UK Government in negotiating fishing opportunities through the European Union and in other international negotiations."

    Also, anyone discussing fishing inj Scotland - bear in mind that the interests and politics of the big east coast barons (those who havent' sold out) are very different from the ones we don't hear so kmuch about, the coastal fishermen who are also important employment wise.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    They've already been gradually imposing their will, and needed only wait to be able to do so completely, but have been impatient and started ramping up. I think resistance will be briefer than many would hope, so brutal suppression will be limited by that more than anything else.
    I think prolonged mass resistance would probably work - i.e. force concessions - but HK is part of China and its integration over time is surely inevitable.

    As for whether there will be prolonged mass resistance, I don't know. I don't have a good sense of that.
    It's integration was already inevitable, which is why their recent actions make little sense to me. Reports from around the time of their local elections last year suggested Beijing was completely convinced by their own comments about how the majority backed their view of the protests going on and was genuinely surprised by the outcome. If that is true, I wonder if their upping the ante is a sign they still believe their own bull, or they realised their mistake and realised their grip was not tight enough.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    It would be grossly immoral, disgraceful, if we gave any hint to the brave people of HK that we were going to intervene in any way to save them when that is beyond our power. And I fear that is what is going to happen when they read too much into our leaders highly principled nonsense. I think we are going to end up with blood on our hands.
    They are very brave. Those who risk their lives and welfare opposing powerful oppressive regimes are amazing people.

    And that would indeed be appalling if we were to foment a rebellion and then seek to wash our hands of it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    nico67 said:

    Who will UK fishermen sell to given the EU buys most especially in terms of seafood . So no trade deal and those will be hit with large tariffs . Some seem to think it’s Brexit heresy to allow any EU boats in UK waters.

    Fishing in UK waters is a matter for HMG to agree post Brexit
    Carnyx said:

    nico67 said:

    Who will UK fishermen sell to given the EU buys most especially in terms of seafood . So no trade deal and those will be hit with large tariffs . Some seem to think it’s Brexit heresy to allow any EU boats in UK waters.

    Fishing in UK waters is a matter for HMG to agree post Brexit
    No, it isn't, not solely [edit]. The devolved nations have control of their waters under the devoluition settlement, in Scotland's case at least. "Marine Scotland is responsible for controlling the activities of all fishing vessels operating within the Scottish zone, as defined by the Fishery Limits Act 1976 and the Scotland Act 1998. This covers the North Sea and west of Scotland out to 200 nautical miles. It is also responsible for managing and controlling the activities of Scottish vessels wherever they may fish – including fishing effort and quota. To do this Marine Scotland works with the UK Government in negotiating fishing opportunities through the European Union and in other international negotiations."

    Also, anyone discussing fishing inj Scotland - bear in mind that the interests and politics of the big east coast barons (those who havent' sold out) are very different from the ones we don't hear so kmuch about, the coastal fishermen who are also important employment wise.
    Further to this - an example of the latter.

    https://www.berwickshirenews.co.uk/news/d-r-collin-facing-reality-brexit-114194
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    It would be grossly immoral, disgraceful, if we gave any hint to the brave people of HK that we were going to intervene in any way to save them when that is beyond our power. And I fear that is what is going to happen when they read too much into our leaders highly principled nonsense. I think we are going to end up with blood on our hands.
    They are very brave. Those who risk their lives and welfare opposing powerful oppressive regimes are amazing people.

    And that would indeed be appalling if we were to foment a rebellion and then seek to wash our hands of it.
    I think that there is a big gap between the UK speaking out about what is going on there and trying to do something (and possibly over promising) and suggesting the UK has such influence that its actions could count as 'fomenting a rebellion'. That would seem to place far too high a responsibility on the UK over both the chinese authorities and the agency of the people of Hong Kong. We're clearly involved and I think DavidL's concerns about most things beyond our power and people potentially suffering as a result is not unfounded, but there is a danger of ascribing too much influence to our politicians and thus blaming them unfairly when things go very bad.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
    I am genuinely sorry that you do not hold the Nation State in the same respect. Without it we would be hard pressed to maintain our democracy.
    I'm happy to contemplate a world of peacefully co-existing Nation States none of whom are seeking to "make themselves great" or any of that nationalistic nonsense.

    Unfortunately some of them - including the two biggest and most powerful - do not seem to share my vision at the present time.
    So you want a world of mediocrity?

    How uninspiring.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Barnier still expecting us to compromise not him.

    We should prepare for no deal.

    No shit Sherlock, it has been plan all along for the clowns, just make unreasonable demands and try to blame it on EU.
    What is unreasonable about the U.K. position on fishing and on dynamic level playing field regulations?
    Both sides professing astonishment and confusion at what the other is offering or not compromising on is extremely false and tedious. I would find it hard to work in an environment where I'd have to constantly repeat such nonsense.

    I only do that on my free time.
    Darn you! Now there’s no chance of @malcolmg coming up with a thoughtful and reasoned response...
    @Charles The one certain thing Charles is that the Tories will happily sell out Scotland , we will be first overboard.
    Don't be silly, I think we all know the Northern Irish would always be the first to be sold out.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Carnyx said:

    nico67 said:

    Who will UK fishermen sell to given the EU buys most especially in terms of seafood . So no trade deal and those will be hit with large tariffs . Some seem to think it’s Brexit heresy to allow any EU boats in UK waters.

    Fishing in UK waters is a matter for HMG to agree post Brexit
    No, it isn't, not solely [edit]. The devolved nations have control of their waters under the devoluition settlement, in Scotland's case at least. "Marine Scotland is responsible for controlling the activities of all fishing vessels operating within the Scottish zone, as defined by the Fishery Limits Act 1976 and the Scotland Act 1998. This covers the North Sea and west of Scotland out to 200 nautical miles. It is also responsible for managing and controlling the activities of Scottish vessels wherever they may fish – including fishing effort and quota. To do this Marine Scotland works with the UK Government in negotiating fishing opportunities through the European Union and in other international negotiations."

    Also, anyone discussing fishing inj Scotland - bear in mind that the interests and politics of the big east coast barons (those who havent' sold out) are very different from the ones we don't hear so kmuch about, the coastal fishermen who are also important employment wise.
    Once again we see the ignorance of Scottish matters on here, it is endemic, everything is supposedly under ownership of London, we are merely serfs.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Will it have pineapple as well
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Scott_xP said:
    The zeal of the convert eh?

    Have you got any tweets from Nandy or Starmer criticising this policy please?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Chinese imperialism is modelled on English imperialism. It was you guys who learnt them the ropes.

    Oh please, you think the English invented imperialism or something? That they have patented a version of it?

    That's so absurdly ridiculous it cannot even be taken seriously as an attempt to troll.
    One the many hilarious things about Scottish nationalism is the attempt to pretend that the British Empire had nothing to do with Scots.
    F Off you stupid tosser, funniest thing is plonkers like you that think you are special.
    Not your most creative put-down, Malcolm. Are you out of sorts?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    It would be grossly immoral, disgraceful, if we gave any hint to the brave people of HK that we were going to intervene in any way to save them when that is beyond our power. And I fear that is what is going to happen when they read too much into our leaders highly principled nonsense. I think we are going to end up with blood on our hands.
    They are very brave. Those who risk their lives and welfare opposing powerful oppressive regimes are amazing people.

    And that would indeed be appalling if we were to foment a rebellion and then seek to wash our hands of it.
    I think that there is a big gap between the UK speaking out about what is going on there and trying to do something (and possibly over promising) and suggesting the UK has such influence that its actions could count as 'fomenting a rebellion'. That would seem to place far too high a responsibility on the UK over both the chinese authorities and the agency of the people of Hong Kong. We're clearly involved and I think DavidL's concerns about most things beyond our power and people potentially suffering as a result is not unfounded, but there is a danger of ascribing too much influence to our politicians and thus blaming them unfairly when things go very bad.
    The Chinese will be having a good laugh at Raab and company. Not even paper tigers.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited July 2020
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    They've already been gradually imposing their will, and needed only wait to be able to do so completely, but have been impatient and started ramping up. I think resistance will be briefer than many would hope, so brutal suppression will be limited by that more than anything else.
    I think prolonged mass resistance would probably work - i.e. force concessions - but HK is part of China and its integration over time is surely inevitable.

    As for whether there will be prolonged mass resistance, I don't know. I don't have a good sense of that.
    It's integration was already inevitable, which is why their recent actions make little sense to me. Reports from around the time of their local elections last year suggested Beijing was completely convinced by their own comments about how the majority backed their view of the protests going on and was genuinely surprised by the outcome. If that is true, I wonder if their upping the ante is a sign they still believe their own bull, or they realised their mistake and realised their grip was not tight enough.
    Me neither. Not sure what they're playing it. The geopolitical stuff re China is not one of my Hot Topics. But I was keen to make this one point where I do have a sense of things and which is maybe contrary to what many think. Being -

    If there IS prolonged mass resistance in Hong Kong, imo China will make concessions rather than attempt a Tiananmen Square type bloody repression.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    "Damn, they are big anchovies...."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Barnier still expecting us to compromise not him.

    We should prepare for no deal.

    No shit Sherlock, it has been plan all along for the clowns, just make unreasonable demands and try to blame it on EU.
    What is unreasonable about the U.K. position on fishing and on dynamic level playing field regulations?
    Both sides professing astonishment and confusion at what the other is offering or not compromising on is extremely false and tedious. I would find it hard to work in an environment where I'd have to constantly repeat such nonsense.

    I only do that on my free time.
    Darn you! Now there’s no chance of @malcolmg coming up with a thoughtful and reasoned response...
    @Charles The one certain thing Charles is that the Tories will happily sell out Scotland , we will be first overboard.
    Don't be silly, I think we all know the Northern Irish would always be the first to be sold out.
    At best it would be close run.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Scott_xP said:
    Anything connect these places, bar a lot of covid spreading?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Why wouldn't we just export it? The people currently buying the fish presumably will continue to want to do so.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Chinese imperialism is modelled on English imperialism. It was you guys who learnt them the ropes.

    Oh please, you think the English invented imperialism or something? That they have patented a version of it?

    That's so absurdly ridiculous it cannot even be taken seriously as an attempt to troll.
    One the many hilarious things about Scottish nationalism is the attempt to pretend that the British Empire had nothing to do with Scots.
    F Off you stupid tosser, funniest thing is plonkers like you that think you are special.
    Not your most creative put-down, Malcolm. Are you out of sorts?
    Short of time as I have been too busy at work , so have to make do and mend.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The zeal of the convert eh?

    Have you got any tweets from Nandy or Starmer criticising this policy please?
    Pleasant looking plate of food , add a beer and it would be perfect.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Why wouldn't we just export it? The people currently buying the fish presumably will continue to want to do so.
    all the extra costs, tariffs etc , they will get it elsewhere or stick to local.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    They've already been gradually imposing their will, and needed only wait to be able to do so completely, but have been impatient and started ramping up. I think resistance will be briefer than many would hope, so brutal suppression will be limited by that more than anything else.
    I think prolonged mass resistance would probably work - i.e. force concessions - but HK is part of China and its integration over time is surely inevitable.

    As for whether there will be prolonged mass resistance, I don't know. I don't have a good sense of that.
    It's integration was already inevitable, which is why their recent actions make little sense to me. Reports from around the time of their local elections last year suggested Beijing was completely convinced by their own comments about how the majority backed their view of the protests going on and was genuinely surprised by the outcome. If that is true, I wonder if their upping the ante is a sign they still believe their own bull, or they realised their mistake and realised their grip was not tight enough.
    Me neither. Not sure what they're playing it. The geopolitical stuff re China is not one of my Hot Topics. But I was keen to make this one point where I do have a sense of things and which is maybe contrary to what many think. Being -

    If there IS prolonged mass resistance in Hong Kong, imo China will make concessions rather than attempt a Tiananmen Square type bloody repression.
    Extremely optimistic on that I think.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    No they won't, it'll end up as cat food or fertiliser.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    malcolmg said:

    TimT said:

    Fishing said:

    Chinese imperialism is modelled on English imperialism. It was you guys who learnt them the ropes.

    No, Chinese imperialism existed long before the British (Scots were imperialists, just like the English) variety. Indeed, long before the English were even a nation.
    Wasn't the reason for the Union failed Scottish imperialism?

    (Ducks and takes cover)
    We are well used to that kind of stupidity and ignorance re Scotland on here.
    It was a joke, and if you'd read the thread, you'd have seen that I happily admitted my ignorance on this issue and sought good sources to enlighten me. But you are still an arsehole.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Why wouldn't we just export it? The people currently buying the fish presumably will continue to want to do so.
    all the extra costs, tariffs etc , they will get it elsewhere or stick to local.
    I don't see why. It's a natural resource so they presumably can't just magic up schools of new fish in their waters to replace the stuff they were buying from our waters.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Texas seems to be avoiding the Covid apocalypse. Houston hospital occupancy rate is falling but their hospitalisation death rate keeps rising.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    TimT said:

    malcolmg said:

    TimT said:

    Fishing said:

    Chinese imperialism is modelled on English imperialism. It was you guys who learnt them the ropes.

    No, Chinese imperialism existed long before the British (Scots were imperialists, just like the English) variety. Indeed, long before the English were even a nation.
    Wasn't the reason for the Union failed Scottish imperialism?

    (Ducks and takes cover)
    We are well used to that kind of stupidity and ignorance re Scotland on here.
    It was a joke, and if you'd read the thread, you'd have seen that I happily admitted my ignorance on this issue and sought good sources to enlighten me. But you are still an arsehole.
    I will forgive you as not had time to read whole thread, I am a very likeable and sociable arsehole though. A pleasant evening to you.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Why wouldn't we just export it? The people currently buying the fish presumably will continue to want to do so.
    all the extra costs, tariffs etc , they will get it elsewhere or stick to local.
    And logistics. Spanish trawler catches North Sea fish and lands it at Spanish port is one thing, Aberdeen trawler ditto and then puts it into trucks to drive to Dover to sit in customs queue to cross channel to drive to Spain is another, fish being fish.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Alistair said:

    Texas seems to be avoiding the Covid apocalypse. Houston hospital occupancy rate is falling but their hospitalisation death rate keeps rising.

    It was inevitable the death rate would rise given the hospitalisation rates but hopefully not too much. Do you think they've peaked if it's falling again? Deaths are rather a lagging indicator.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited July 2020
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    It would be grossly immoral, disgraceful, if we gave any hint to the brave people of HK that we were going to intervene in any way to save them when that is beyond our power. And I fear that is what is going to happen when they read too much into our leaders highly principled nonsense. I think we are going to end up with blood on our hands.
    They are very brave. Those who risk their lives and welfare opposing powerful oppressive regimes are amazing people.

    And that would indeed be appalling if we were to foment a rebellion and then seek to wash our hands of it.
    I think that there is a big gap between the UK speaking out about what is going on there and trying to do something (and possibly over promising) and suggesting the UK has such influence that its actions could count as 'fomenting a rebellion'. That would seem to place far too high a responsibility on the UK over both the chinese authorities and the agency of the people of Hong Kong. We're clearly involved and I think DavidL's concerns about most things beyond our power and people potentially suffering as a result is not unfounded, but there is a danger of ascribing too much influence to our politicians and thus blaming them unfairly when things go very bad.
    Simply speaking out does not equate to fomenting trouble. But I think David meant something more than this. He meant giving people in HK the idea that we would do a whole lot more than talk. That we - GREAT Britain - were in some way capable of rescuing them from their ultimate fate as being an integral part of China.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Why wouldn't we just export it? The people currently buying the fish presumably will continue to want to do so.
    all the extra costs, tariffs etc , they will get it elsewhere or stick to local.
    And logistics. Spanish trawler catches North Sea fish and lands it at Spanish port is one thing, Aberdeen trawler ditto and then puts it into trucks to drive to Dover to sit in customs queue to cross channel to drive to Spain is another, fish being fish.
    Hmm. Whilst I get your point, it is as nothing compared to the fact that fish is currently sent from the UK to China to be filleted, processed, packaged and sent back for sale in UK supermarkets as 'British' fish.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Carnyx said:

    nico67 said:

    Who will UK fishermen sell to given the EU buys most especially in terms of seafood . So no trade deal and those will be hit with large tariffs . Some seem to think it’s Brexit heresy to allow any EU boats in UK waters.

    Fishing in UK waters is a matter for HMG to agree post Brexit
    No, it isn't, not solely [edit]. The devolved nations have control of their waters under the devoluition settlement, in Scotland's case at least. "Marine Scotland is responsible for controlling the activities of all fishing vessels operating within the Scottish zone, as defined by the Fishery Limits Act 1976 and the Scotland Act 1998. This covers the North Sea and west of Scotland out to 200 nautical miles. It is also responsible for managing and controlling the activities of Scottish vessels wherever they may fish – including fishing effort and quota. To do this Marine Scotland works with the UK Government in negotiating fishing opportunities through the European Union and in other international negotiations."

    Also, anyone discussing fishing inj Scotland - bear in mind that the interests and politics of the big east coast barons (those who havent' sold out) are very different from the ones we don't hear so kmuch about, the coastal fishermen who are also important employment wise.
    Also worth pointing out that Scotland has by far the biggest interest in this being done properly. Not only do they have a much more valuable fishing industry than England but it is also far more locally owned.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited July 2020
    If @ydoethur or any other decent historians are about, what are the best book(s) to read about the Black Death?

    I currently have a working knowledge about the Great Pestilence of the 14th century.

    I'm particularly keen to know more about the blame the Jews received for the (inaccurate) perception that they were the ones responsible for spreading the Black Death?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    And whilst I am at it did the collapse of the Soviet Empire come from:
    (a) The inability of a command economy to compete with an innovative free market economy;
    (b) the pressure applied by Reagan's increase in the conventional capability of the US;
    (c) a combination of (a) and (b) or
    (d) Amnesty International's campaigns about prisoners of conscience?

    The idea that the Chinese will be influenced by similar protests is almost funny, in a sad kind of way.

    OTOH, "people power" can be awesome. Over time irresistible. For example, if the population of Hong Kong resist Chinese oppression en masse, I do not share the view of many that China will simply roll them over. I think China would have a big problem in such circumstances. I don't think they will do a Tiananmen in a place like HK in today's exposed world.

    And a thought on (a). Yes, totally right as regards the USSR. But in the current wrangling with China there is a touch of the opposite - the inability of our mixed economy to compete with their state directed capitalism.
    I think that you are being seriously and indeed dangerously optimistic about HK. On trade the Chinese are very successfully implementing mercantilsm, something our free trade fanatics still tell us doesn't work.
    I wouldn't say I feel exactly optimistic about HK. It's part of China and will be integrated over time. But I don't see China brutally suppressing mass resistance if there is mass resistance. I think they'll need to find a way other than that to gradually impose their will. No Tiananmen Square in the offing.
    They've already been gradually imposing their will, and needed only wait to be able to do so completely, but have been impatient and started ramping up. I think resistance will be briefer than many would hope, so brutal suppression will be limited by that more than anything else.
    I think prolonged mass resistance would probably work - i.e. force concessions - but HK is part of China and its integration over time is surely inevitable.

    As for whether there will be prolonged mass resistance, I don't know. I don't have a good sense of that.
    It's integration was already inevitable, which is why their recent actions make little sense to me. Reports from around the time of their local elections last year suggested Beijing was completely convinced by their own comments about how the majority backed their view of the protests going on and was genuinely surprised by the outcome. If that is true, I wonder if their upping the ante is a sign they still believe their own bull, or they realised their mistake and realised their grip was not tight enough.
    Me neither. Not sure what they're playing it. The geopolitical stuff re China is not one of my Hot Topics. But I was keen to make this one point where I do have a sense of things and which is maybe contrary to what many think. Being -

    If there IS prolonged mass resistance in Hong Kong, imo China will make concessions rather than attempt a Tiananmen Square type bloody repression.
    Extremely optimistic on that I think.
    Could be. But I do predict there will be one of two outcomes - either little mass resistance or serious mass resistance that leads to concessions from China rather than major bloodshed. I guess you hope I'm right even if you think I'm not.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited July 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
    I am genuinely sorry that you do not hold the Nation State in the same respect. Without it we would be hard pressed to maintain our democracy.
    I'm happy to contemplate a world of peacefully co-existing Nation States none of whom are seeking to "make themselves great" or any of that nationalistic nonsense.

    Unfortunately some of them - including the two biggest and most powerful - do not seem to share my vision at the present time.
    So you want a world of mediocrity?

    How uninspiring.
    "Peacefully co-existing, non-nationalistic nation states = A world of mediocrity" -

    That's your problem right there.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    If @ydoethur or any other decent historians are about, what are the best book(s) to read about the Black Death?

    I currently have a working knowledge about the Great Pestilence of the 14th century.

    I'm particularly keen to know more about the blame the Jews received for the (inaccurate) perception that they were the ones responsible for spreading the Black Death?

    The Great Mortality by John Kelly is very readable and has (at least) a whole chapter on the Jewish theory and its horrible consequences.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited July 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    If @ydoethur or any other decent historians are about, what are the best book(s) to read about the Black Death?

    I currently have a working knowledge about the Great Pestilence of the 14th century.

    I'm particularly keen to know more about the blame the Jews received for the (inaccurate) perception that they were the ones responsible for spreading the Black Death?

    The Great Mortality by John Kelly is very readable and has (at least) a whole chapter on the Jewish theory and its horrible consequences.
    Thank you.

    Edit - Hurrah, it is available on Amazon and the Kindle App.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    @kinabalu can you please explain why you want a world of mediocre nations rather than countries striving for greatness?

    Do you extend that to other walks of life? Should I be disappointed Liverpool are great and want a return to mediocrity?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Anything connect these places, bar a lot of covid spreading?
    The M1 and M56 will get you to most of them...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    edited July 2020

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    Indeed but what about if you had bought a fishing licence in good faith from someone and were suddenly told it was worthless and you couldn't fish. Its a bit like buying farming land from someone in, say, France, and being told you couldn;t farm, isn;t it?
    Its not that unusual in the EU though. Various rights which transferred for large sums of money such as Milk quota and the right to various subsidies re livestock have either disappeared or been materially changed in their operation as policies changed. Fishing quota is a man made artificial construct and it is up to us to determine how it is allocated once we are free of CFP commitments.
    How fishing quotas are allocated is up to national governments under the CFP and different member states have very different policies.
    That is true but as Robert has already pointed out those policies require to be compatible with EU law in respect of freedom of movement for people and businesses. You cannot discriminate in favour of your own population to the detriment of other EU citizens.
    And yet there is practically no foreign ownership of French or Dutch fishing quotas.
    I think I posted on here a while back the composition of EU countries fishing fleets by displacement / tonnage. The UK had the smallest boat size. Essentially, in most EU countries owner-operated small trawlers had been replaced by industrial fishing vessels, owned by corporations.

    And because these vessels were more efficient, and because the companies didn't live hand to mouth, they could borrow to buy up British quotas.

    Part of the problem we have is that we're not just trying to preserve British fish stocks for British fishermen, we're also trying to preserve a way of life.

    And - really - the threats to that way of life, and the communities that depend on it, goes far beyond Brexit. To protect them, we need to not just have fishing quotas for British waters, but to also require that fish are landed in the UK, and that boats are limited to a maximum size.

    Doing that, though, results in British fish being brought ashore at higher cost than those in Spain or France or wherever. And that then requires us to impose tariffs on fish imports, to allow the fishermen to fish economically.

    We can do this - but doing this is part of a trade off in our negotiations with other countries over FTAs. How important is protecting a way of life that is economically marginal? And how does that compare to opportunities that might be lost in other parts of the economy?

    There is also a longer-term existential threat: fish are being farmed more and more. This (Norwegian) project in Florida is going to provide 15% of the US's entire salmon consumption. Now, not all fish can be farmed, but an increasing proportion can, and people will choose farmed Chilean sea bass over wild haddock if the price difference is significant enough.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
    I am genuinely sorry that you do not hold the Nation State in the same respect. Without it we would be hard pressed to maintain our democracy.
    I'm happy to contemplate a world of peacefully co-existing Nation States none of whom are seeking to "make themselves great" or any of that nationalistic nonsense.

    Unfortunately some of them - including the two biggest and most powerful - do not seem to share my vision at the present time.
    So you want a world of mediocrity?

    How uninspiring.
    "Peacefully co-existing, non-nationalistic nation states = A world of mediocrity" -

    That's your problem right there.
    You cut out "none of whom are seeking to "make themselves great""

    So yes peaceful coexistence is all fine and dandy but you aspire to not even try to be great?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Starmer making the case for the Union is to win seats in England, not Scotland. That's the play.

    If he can become hated by Sturgeon, even better

    Hatred is not Sturgeon’s modus operandi. She fought Glasgow Labour for many long years before first winning. They taught her that hatred, in which they specialised (eg. George Galloway), was a one-way route to failure.

    Starmer is welcome to make a case for the Union. I wish a Unionist occasionally would. Not seen one even try for several decades
    Just a reminder, you lost in 2014
    Indeed. Hatred won in 2014. Love lost.
    I see very little love coming from nationalists
    Indeed. I too see very little love coming from British nationalists.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Why wouldn't we just export it? The people currently buying the fish presumably will continue to want to do so.
    all the extra costs, tariffs etc , they will get it elsewhere or stick to local.
    And logistics. Spanish trawler catches North Sea fish and lands it at Spanish port is one thing, Aberdeen trawler ditto and then puts it into trucks to drive to Dover to sit in customs queue to cross channel to drive to Spain is another, fish being fish.
    Hmm. Whilst I get your point, it is as nothing compared to the fact that fish is currently sent from the UK to China to be filleted, processed, packaged and sent back for sale in UK supermarkets as 'British' fish.
    I'm afraid the difference is the Spanish like their fish really, really fresh, and the British will eat virtually anything.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    rcs1000 said:

    Part of the problem we have is that we're not just trying to preserve British fish stocks for British fishermen, we're also trying to preserve a way of life.

    Are we? What evidence is there that UK policy has been directed towards preserving a way of life?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    Indeed but what about if you had bought a fishing licence in good faith from someone and were suddenly told it was worthless and you couldn't fish. Its a bit like buying farming land from someone in, say, France, and being told you couldn;t farm, isn;t it?
    Its not that unusual in the EU though. Various rights which transferred for large sums of money such as Milk quota and the right to various subsidies re livestock have either disappeared or been materially changed in their operation as policies changed. Fishing quota is a man made artificial construct and it is up to us to determine how it is allocated once we are free of CFP commitments.
    How fishing quotas are allocated is up to national governments under the CFP and different member states have very different policies.
    That is true but as Robert has already pointed out those policies require to be compatible with EU law in respect of freedom of movement for people and businesses. You cannot discriminate in favour of your own population to the detriment of other EU citizens.
    And yet there is practically no foreign ownership of French or Dutch fishing quotas.
    I think I posted on here a while back the composition of EU countries fishing fleets by displacement / tonnage. The UK had the smallest boat size. Essentially, in most EU countries owner-operated small trawlers had been replaced by industrial fishing vessels, owned by corporations.

    And because these vessels were more efficient, and because the companies didn't live hand to mouth, they could borrow to buy up British quotas.

    Part of the problem we have is that we're not just trying to preserve British fish stocks for British fishermen, we're also trying to preserve a way of life.

    And - really - the threats to that way of life, and the communities that depend on it, goes far beyond Brexit. To protect them, we need to not just have fishing quotas for British waters, but to also require that fish are landed in the UK, and that boats are limited to a maximum size.

    Doing that, though, results in British fish being brought ashore at higher cost than those in Spain or France or wherever. And that then requires us to impose tariffs on fish imports, to allow the fishermen to fish economically.

    We can do this - but doing this is part of a trade off in our negotiations with other countries over FTAs. How important is protecting a way of life that is economically marginal? And how does that compare to opportunities that might be lost in other parts of the economy?

    There is also a longer-term existential threat: fish are being farmed more and more. This (Norwegian) project in Florida is going to provide 15% of the US's entire salmon consumption. Now, not all fish can be farmed, but an increasing proportion can, and people will choose farmed Chilean sea bass over wild haddock if the price difference is significant enough.

    None of which is actually pertinent to the point that was being discussed and which you raised originally about the UK Government being sued if they remove all quotas from foreign vessels. Something that is very much overstated.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    algarkirk said:

    welshowl said:

    nichomar said:

    Boris is obsessed with fishing. Nobody outside of a tiny minority gives a shit about fishing, let’s be real here.

    My Scottish family do and with a passion.

    Their communities were founded on fishing
    And they will be in the tiny minority. North Shields on Tyneside was “founded on fishing” and yet the Fish Quay, whilst still being a working fishing port, is full of edgy bars and flats these days.
    It does not mean that fishing is not a big issue in the North East Scottish fishing communities
    Fishing is a massive issue Mr G, crazy but true.

    If Boris 'betrays' those fishermen (persons?) he can forget leading the tories into the next election and I would doubt the tories would form the next government.

    We want those waters. We want to tell Frenchman and Spaniards they cannot fish there even if we don;t want to fish there ourselves. Are we right to want that at the expense of much else? I don;t know, but I know its true.

    Fishing really is that big.
    Well we shouldn’t have sold them the quotas
    Maybe the EEC shouldn’t have dreamt up the Common Fisheries Policy back in the early 70’s just so it could make a grab for fishing rights ( or natural resources as they are) of the then four prospective joiners, the UK, Ireland, Denmark, and Norway who just so happened to bring with them vast oceans which the EEC did not possess, but which could force them to hand over as a joining fee of acquis communautaire. Norway voted not to join of course, partly because of this issue I’m sure.

    Just imagine if Spain Italy Greece and Portugal joined, and the northerners dreamt up a Common Citrus Fruit Policy and said hand over your lemon groves because we’ve not got any.

    It was a total injustice 50 years ago, that may be close to being at least partially righted, and despite its minuscule economic value the whole issue has become far more totemic than Barnier wanted I’m sure. Maybe they should’ve been a bit more circumspect about screwing us over on this in the 70’s in the first place? What goes around and all that.
    You must realise how out of touch you are, right?
    This 'out of touch' argument seems quite well founded and decently argued to me. Could Gallowgate tell us what's wrong with it?

    I already have. @welshowl is treating “fishing” like an issue of significant national importance, when actually no normal person gives a hoot.
    It’s not if any great import economically ( a few costal places aside), but it’s symbolic of what was wrong from day one in 1973.

    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple. All the fine talk of esprit communautaire was just that- talk. It would’ve been far better for the EEC to have left this well alone, but no, they felt they had the whip hand and they used it. The result was it went on to the list of things we weren’t entirely comfortable with, with the rebate, FOM, the ECJ etc. Niggling like a stone in a shoe. It even played a role in 2016 when Geldof decided to sail down the Thames to have an “easy” go at Farage and ended up being confronted by some fisher folk.

    It was all so unnecessary by the EEC/EU, precisely because it is such a small industry. But here we are 50 years on and it’s a major issue now way out of all proportion to its monetary worth.

    The EU overplaying it’s strong hand (again!!!) in microcosm.
    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple.

    That's a little simplistic.

    The founding principle of the EU is the free movement of goods, services and people. That means that the British box system, which allowed only UK and Irish fishermen to own rights to fish in the jointly administered territorial waters of the UK and Ireland.

    Not allowing those to be owned by non-British/Irish entities would have breached the "free movement" clause of the treaties, and so the CFP was created. And for a decade or so, only UK and Irish fishermen owned these quotas.

    With the accession of two more countries with Atlantic fishing (Spain and Portugal), we started to see industrial fishing vessels and fleets that displaced 10x what a smaller British trawler did. With just twice the number of people, they could catch 10x the fish. And so, the Spanish fishing concerns bought up quotas from British fishermen, as they could pay the equivalent of 10 years or so of fishing revenues for them - and the fisherman wouldn't have to get up early to do back breaking work.
    Sorry Robert but this is wrong. Or at least misleading. Prior to the UK/Denmark/Ireland accession there was no CFP for the existing EEC countries fishing in the North Sea, the Baltic or the Med. They were perfectly happy for fishing to be a national competence before then. It was only when those countries with very large fishing areas - the UK, Ireland and Norway - were looking to join that the CFP was devised. That gave quotas for fishing in British and Irish waters (the Norwegians had more sense than to join in the end) to other EEC countries from the very start.
    On fishing, I'd be very surprised if Boris gave way. It may not be economically important, but it's hugely useful in Scotland politically. And we've seen BJ waking up to the Scottish problem. SNP hate it when they are accused of wanting to hand fishing back to the EU - no plausible answer to the charge.

    On Indy, generally. I'm struck how strong Starmer and his Shadow SoS for Scotland, Ian Murray are on the subject. They are not going to allow themselves to be stitched up as Sturgeon puppets as Miliband was. Boris can rule out IndyRef2 with impunity.

    Another counter-intuitive thought at a time of Sturgeon worship. The SNP's strength is its ability to draw support from Left and Right in Scotland. But that can also be its weakness. Beyond a hardcore of, say, 20% or so, who put Indy above all else, they are vulnerable to being squeezed if politics becomes about economics and services. We saw in 2017 how they were rattled by Scots Tory revival. Labour, if they get their act together, are far more dangerous than the Tories as most Scots feel fairly benign to the party. They could revive. Stranger things have happened (as we have seen).
    Unionist golden bullet #12,451

    Ladies and gentlemen, may I present Roger’s cousin MP.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749

    @kinabalu can you please explain why you want a world of mediocre nations rather than countries striving for greatness?

    Do you extend that to other walks of life? Should I be disappointed Liverpool are great and want a return to mediocrity?

    I believe the UK is already world leading, world beating and oozing sheer might. Job done surely?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,282
    "Coronavirus: Excess deaths fall below five-year average in all but one England region"

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-death-toll-higher-ons-stats-a4504191.html
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,282

    If @ydoethur or any other decent historians are about, what are the best book(s) to read about the Black Death?

    I currently have a working knowledge about the Great Pestilence of the 14th century.

    I'm particularly keen to know more about the blame the Jews received for the (inaccurate) perception that they were the ones responsible for spreading the Black Death?

    Ben Gummer wrote a comprehensive history of the Black Death a few years ago.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just how much fish are we planning on catching to make up for the economic hit of hard Brexit :D

    Quite. And who is going to buy it? There is a huge mismatch of UK fish catch with the UK internal market. People are going to end up having mackerel and potato for dinner rather than pizza. Or mackerel pizza.
    Why wouldn't we just export it? The people currently buying the fish presumably will continue to want to do so.
    all the extra costs, tariffs etc , they will get it elsewhere or stick to local.
    And logistics. Spanish trawler catches North Sea fish and lands it at Spanish port is one thing, Aberdeen trawler ditto and then puts it into trucks to drive to Dover to sit in customs queue to cross channel to drive to Spain is another, fish being fish.
    Hmm. Whilst I get your point, it is as nothing compared to the fact that fish is currently sent from the UK to China to be filleted, processed, packaged and sent back for sale in UK supermarkets as 'British' fish.
    I'm afraid the difference is the Spanish like their fish really, really fresh, and the British will eat virtually anything.
    Some of us were even brought up on canned snoek.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395

    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    algarkirk said:

    welshowl said:

    nichomar said:

    Boris is obsessed with fishing. Nobody outside of a tiny minority gives a shit about fishing, let’s be real here.

    My Scottish family do and with a passion.

    Their communities were founded on fishing
    And they will be in the tiny minority. North Shields on Tyneside was “founded on fishing” and yet the Fish Quay, whilst still being a working fishing port, is full of edgy bars and flats these days.
    It does not mean that fishing is not a big issue in the North East Scottish fishing communities
    Fishing is a massive issue Mr G, crazy but true.

    If Boris 'betrays' those fishermen (persons?) he can forget leading the tories into the next election and I would doubt the tories would form the next government.

    We want those waters. We want to tell Frenchman and Spaniards they cannot fish there even if we don;t want to fish there ourselves. Are we right to want that at the expense of much else? I don;t know, but I know its true.

    Fishing really is that big.
    Well we shouldn’t have sold them the quotas
    Maybe the EEC shouldn’t have dreamt up the Common Fisheries Policy back in the early 70’s just so it could make a grab for fishing rights ( or natural resources as they are) of the then four prospective joiners, the UK, Ireland, Denmark, and Norway who just so happened to bring with them vast oceans which the EEC did not possess, but which could force them to hand over as a joining fee of acquis communautaire. Norway voted not to join of course, partly because of this issue I’m sure.

    Just imagine if Spain Italy Greece and Portugal joined, and the northerners dreamt up a Common Citrus Fruit Policy and said hand over your lemon groves because we’ve not got any.

    It was a total injustice 50 years ago, that may be close to being at least partially righted, and despite its minuscule economic value the whole issue has become far more totemic than Barnier wanted I’m sure. Maybe they should’ve been a bit more circumspect about screwing us over on this in the 70’s in the first place? What goes around and all that.
    You must realise how out of touch you are, right?
    This 'out of touch' argument seems quite well founded and decently argued to me. Could Gallowgate tell us what's wrong with it?

    I already have. @welshowl is treating “fishing” like an issue of significant national importance, when actually no normal person gives a hoot.
    It’s not if any great import economically ( a few costal places aside), but it’s symbolic of what was wrong from day one in 1973.

    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple. All the fine talk of esprit communautaire was just that- talk. It would’ve been far better for the EEC to have left this well alone, but no, they felt they had the whip hand and they used it. The result was it went on to the list of things we weren’t entirely comfortable with, with the rebate, FOM, the ECJ etc. Niggling like a stone in a shoe. It even played a role in 2016 when Geldof decided to sail down the Thames to have an “easy” go at Farage and ended up being confronted by some fisher folk.

    It was all so unnecessary by the EEC/EU, precisely because it is such a small industry. But here we are 50 years on and it’s a major issue now way out of all proportion to its monetary worth.

    The EU overplaying it’s strong hand (again!!!) in microcosm.
    They literally created the CFP as a reaction to the four wanting to join. It was a grab for booty pure and simple.

    That's a little simplistic.

    The founding principle of the EU is the free movement of goods, services and people. That means that the British box system, which allowed only UK and Irish fishermen to own rights to fish in the jointly administered territorial waters of the UK and Ireland.

    Not allowing those to be owned by non-British/Irish entities would have breached the "free movement" clause of the treaties, and so the CFP was created. And for a decade or so, only UK and Irish fishermen owned these quotas.

    With the accession of two more countries with Atlantic fishing (Spain and Portugal), we started to see industrial fishing vessels and fleets that displaced 10x what a smaller British trawler did. With just twice the number of people, they could catch 10x the fish. And so, the Spanish fishing concerns bought up quotas from British fishermen, as they could pay the equivalent of 10 years or so of fishing revenues for them - and the fisherman wouldn't have to get up early to do back breaking work.
    Sorry Robert but this is wrong. Or at least misleading. Prior to the UK/Denmark/Ireland accession there was no CFP for the existing EEC countries fishing in the North Sea, the Baltic or the Med. They were perfectly happy for fishing to be a national competence before then. It was only when those countries with very large fishing areas - the UK, Ireland and Norway - were looking to join that the CFP was devised. That gave quotas for fishing in British and Irish waters (the Norwegians had more sense than to join in the end) to other EEC countries from the very start.
    On fishing, I'd be very surprised if Boris gave way. It may not be economically important, but it's hugely useful in Scotland politically. And we've seen BJ waking up to the Scottish problem. SNP hate it when they are accused of wanting to hand fishing back to the EU - no plausible answer to the charge.

    On Indy, generally. I'm struck how strong Starmer and his Shadow SoS for Scotland, Ian Murray are on the subject. They are not going to allow themselves to be stitched up as Sturgeon puppets as Miliband was. Boris can rule out IndyRef2 with impunity.

    Another counter-intuitive thought at a time of Sturgeon worship. The SNP's strength is its ability to draw support from Left and Right in Scotland. But that can also be its weakness. Beyond a hardcore of, say, 20% or so, who put Indy above all else, they are vulnerable to being squeezed if politics becomes about economics and services. We saw in 2017 how they were rattled by Scots Tory revival. Labour, if they get their act together, are far more dangerous than the Tories as most Scots feel fairly benign to the party. They could revive. Stranger things have happened (as we have seen).
    Unionist golden bullet #12,451

    Ladies and gentlemen, may I present Roger’s cousin MP.
    Well, who would have expected SCUP to put a spanner in the works in '17?. Things change. Will be interesting to see if the famous 54% poll is a trend (or not).
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395

    Starmer making the case for the Union is to win seats in England, not Scotland. That's the play.

    If he can become hated by Sturgeon, even better

    Hatred is not Sturgeon’s modus operandi. She fought Glasgow Labour for many long years before first winning. They taught her that hatred, in which they specialised (eg. George Galloway), was a one-way route to failure.

    Starmer is welcome to make a case for the Union. I wish a Unionist occasionally would. Not seen one even try for several decades
    Just a reminder, you lost in 2014
    Indeed. Hatred won in 2014. Love lost.
    I see very little love coming from nationalists
    Indeed. I too see very little love coming from British nationalists.
    The problem is this is not "normal" politics. It's about identity. Playing with fire.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Andy_JS said:

    If @ydoethur or any other decent historians are about, what are the best book(s) to read about the Black Death?

    I currently have a working knowledge about the Great Pestilence of the 14th century.

    I'm particularly keen to know more about the blame the Jews received for the (inaccurate) perception that they were the ones responsible for spreading the Black Death?

    Ben Gummer wrote a comprehensive history of the Black Death a few years ago.
    He did, but it is limited to the British Isles where England had just expelled its Jewish population.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On fishing it's not an area I especially care about but to think that the fish are our natural resource so we should determine what we do with it. I have 3 questions or thoughts from what I've read here and elsewhere.

    1. People speak about rights and quotas having been bought and sold as if it is inalienable and unchangeable. But surely they only exist within the framework of the CFP. If we completely leave the CFP and control our own waters we can determine whatever policies we want going forwards surely?

    2. I believe we get a greatly reduced share of the fish in the CFP than we should as it was determined by proportion of fish being taken in community waters in the early 70s not the proportion of waters or fish that should be each nations own resource. Since UK fishermen were at the time fishing in Iceland's waters (until Iceland expelled them) we got a lower than appropriate share which I believe continues to this day.

    3. If we were to want to we could claim and legally enforce 200 miles of exclusive waters for ourselves. As Norway and Iceland do. Why shouldn't we?

    I don't particularly care about the fish but it's our own natural resource under international maritime laws. Why shouldn't we get the most from our own natural resources? Everyone else seeks to.

    Indeed but what about if you had bought a fishing licence in good faith from someone and were suddenly told it was worthless and you couldn't fish. Its a bit like buying farming land from someone in, say, France, and being told you couldn;t farm, isn;t it?
    Its not that unusual in the EU though. Various rights which transferred for large sums of money such as Milk quota and the right to various subsidies re livestock have either disappeared or been materially changed in their operation as policies changed. Fishing quota is a man made artificial construct and it is up to us to determine how it is allocated once we are free of CFP commitments.
    How fishing quotas are allocated is up to national governments under the CFP and different member states have very different policies.
    That is true but as Robert has already pointed out those policies require to be compatible with EU law in respect of freedom of movement for people and businesses. You cannot discriminate in favour of your own population to the detriment of other EU citizens.
    And yet there is practically no foreign ownership of French or Dutch fishing quotas.
    I think I posted on here a while back the composition of EU countries fishing fleets by displacement / tonnage. The UK had the smallest boat size. Essentially, in most EU countries owner-operated small trawlers had been replaced by industrial fishing vessels, owned by corporations.

    And because these vessels were more efficient, and because the companies didn't live hand to mouth, they could borrow to buy up British quotas.

    Part of the problem we have is that we're not just trying to preserve British fish stocks for British fishermen, we're also trying to preserve a way of life.

    And - really - the threats to that way of life, and the communities that depend on it, goes far beyond Brexit. To protect them, we need to not just have fishing quotas for British waters, but to also require that fish are landed in the UK, and that boats are limited to a maximum size.

    Doing that, though, results in British fish being brought ashore at higher cost than those in Spain or France or wherever. And that then requires us to impose tariffs on fish imports, to allow the fishermen to fish economically.

    We can do this - but doing this is part of a trade off in our negotiations with other countries over FTAs. How important is protecting a way of life that is economically marginal? And how does that compare to opportunities that might be lost in other parts of the economy?

    There is also a longer-term existential threat: fish are being farmed more and more. This (Norwegian) project in Florida is going to provide 15% of the US's entire salmon consumption. Now, not all fish can be farmed, but an increasing proportion can, and people will choose farmed Chilean sea bass over wild haddock if the price difference is significant enough.

    None of which is actually pertinent to the point that was being discussed and which you raised originally about the UK Government being sued if they remove all quotas from foreign vessels. Something that is very much overstated.
    My points are a bit more nuanced.

    (1) If you strip quotas from one group of people, but leave them with others, then you open yourself up to legal challenge. If you completely abolished quotas then it's a very different situation. If you started from scratch, i.e. auctioning rights off each year, then you probably wouldn't have a problem. But it would be a disaster for fishing communities.

    (2) Even if you made it so only British people and firms could own fishing quotas, you wouldn't necessarily change the amount of fish landed in the UK by Brits. Already a large chunk of British fish quotas are owned by Brits by effectively operated by others who never even dock at UK ports.

    (3) We seem unclear as to our ultimate goal. Is it to protect British fishermen? Or is to have an efficient fishing industry? "Taking back control" - to a struggling fisherman - does not mean that rights become British but nothing changes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I would opine that fishing was irrelevant to most people voting for leave. It was immigration

    You're a one tracked individual then. The vote wasn't so narrow minded as that. I couldn't care less about immigration but care about sovereignty and the fish are our sovereign natural resource.

    If there was a common oil policy and the EU was taking away our North Sea oil without us getting the revenues from it that would bother me too. The fact it's fish isn't here nor there the subject isn't that important what is important is the EU taking away a valuable resource that should be ours.
    If I were to say that sometimes you appear to fetishize the Nation State it might be deeply unfair - and I apologize if it would be - but it would be no less than the truth as I sometimes sense it.
    I would hope he does fetishize it. The Nation State with an accountable government is one of the fundamental building blocks of a democratic system.
    Yes, you too. Definitely. Sorry for missing you out there. :smile:
    I am genuinely sorry that you do not hold the Nation State in the same respect. Without it we would be hard pressed to maintain our democracy.
    I'm happy to contemplate a world of peacefully co-existing Nation States none of whom are seeking to "make themselves great" or any of that nationalistic nonsense.

    Unfortunately some of them - including the two biggest and most powerful - do not seem to share my vision at the present time.
    So you want a world of mediocrity?

    How uninspiring.
    "Peacefully co-existing, non-nationalistic nation states = A world of mediocrity" -

    That's your problem right there.
    You cut out "none of whom are seeking to "make themselves great""

    So yes peaceful coexistence is all fine and dandy but you aspire to not even try to be great?
    Each person, regardless of what country they live in, should aspire to be the best version of themselves and live the best life they can.

    The notion of Nation States trying to be "great" does not thrill me. Happy to leave that to fetishists like you and Tyndall.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,703

    Starmer making the case for the Union is to win seats in England, not Scotland. That's the play.

    If he can become hated by Sturgeon, even better

    Hatred is not Sturgeon’s modus operandi. She fought Glasgow Labour for many long years before first winning. They taught her that hatred, in which they specialised (eg. George Galloway), was a one-way route to failure.

    Starmer is welcome to make a case for the Union. I wish a Unionist occasionally would. Not seen one even try for several decades
    Just a reminder, you lost in 2014
    Yes, and remember it is winners' manifestos (Vote No to keep Scotland in the EU) that are put to the test afterwards.
This discussion has been closed.