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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Print journalism needs a revolution to avoid a slow death: mic

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 25 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Print journalism needs a revolution to avoid a slow death: micro-payments are the way forward

When did you last buy a newspaper? I’ve no idea when I did. It was certainly before this year and then will have been the local weekly; I haven’t bought a national paper in years – why would you? I do subscribe to a hard-copy weekly magazine (which also brings with it online access to their articles), but that’s a different thing

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Comments

  • TomsToms Posts: 1,943
    In answer to your 1st question : yesterday. three. ditto in 10 minutes 2day.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,483
    So long as they are trying to charge people for something that is seen as a commodity and is easily and freely available elsewhere, the newspapers will have a big problem.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,902
    I agree that micropayments are a better system. A full subscription is too much for a casual browse and the sort of intrusive pop up or auroplay ads are just so annoying that I leave such a site very quickly.

    I do have subscriptions to a couple of favoured journals and am a paying supporter of The Guardian. There are many more that I never read because of payrolls.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 1,573
    edited July 25
    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 2,705
    Micropayments used to be rejected as unworkable, but that was in the days before PayPal and I think they would work fine these days. I would worry about unintended consequences though; wouldn't things get ultra clickbaity? If clickbait is a problem now when the prize is just page impressions to keep the advertisers happy, what will it be like if the reward is instant hard cash?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 34,831
    I still buy weekend newspapers, 2-3. The wife still loves them sprawled all over the bed (after yours truly has had to get up, get dressed and drive to collect them).

    They are now eye-wateringly expensive. Printed in London, dragged overnight nearly 250 miles, the various inserts laboriously put together with the main paper at the newsagent/shop/garage....all to get something that technolgy can instantly ping to your lap-top or ipad or (God forbid for the nation's eyesight) your phone.

    Mr. WIlliiam Caxton, move aside, your work is done. Get over it, wifey.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,546
    Surely the reason why this model isn't being used is that the publications would lose money. If it was that easy to pay for only what you wanted to pay for, then why bother subscribing at all?

    Sky Sports is the obvious comparison. They now do a one day pass - but that is £9.99 (v a monthly subscription of c.£35 - though, how much the average customer pays varies and, of course, you need a base subscription for Sky or Virgin).

    The point is, more money can be made by charging a lot to those who are really keen to pay for something than by getting more customers at a lower price.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,902
    Of course, micropayments to PB might bankrupt me!
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,943
    The INDEPENDENT site is so desperately cluttered I avoid it almost invariably.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,140
    IshmaelZ said:

    Micropayments used to be rejected as unworkable, but that was in the days before PayPal and I think they would work fine these days. I would worry about unintended consequences though; wouldn't things get ultra clickbaity? If clickbait is a problem now when the prize is just page impressions to keep the advertisers happy, what will it be like if the reward is instant hard cash?

    Yes, you really want to tweak the incentives a bit rather than just doing pay-per-click. For instance, have an option, after you read the article, to click "Meh" and have the money go not just to the paper that printed it but instead to be pooled among all the papers in the scheme.

    You could do something similar for accuracy: Papers probably do actually want to write accurate stuff, but they have to balance that against the need for clicks. So have a rating system later on after more evidence is in - either a panel of experts or a jury of users - and have that direct some of the payments away from the publishers of articles that turned out to be shitty, and towards ones that turned out to be good.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 34,831
    Toms said:

    The INDEPENDENT site is so desperately cluttered I avoid it almost invariably.

    I have an adblocker, so the Independent and the Mail are not available to me unless I turn it off (which I don't). It has so far blocked 403,000 ads.
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,943

    Toms said:

    The INDEPENDENT site is so desperately cluttered I avoid it almost invariably.

    I have an adblocker, so the Independent and the Mail are not available to me unless I turn it off (which I don't). It has so far blocked 403,000 ads.
    Bring back the London Times with little ads at the top of the front page!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,140
    I also have an ad blocker - it's not aimed at the ads, it's aimed at all the trackers and insecure junk that comes along with the ads. Unfortunately there's no way to keep the ads without opting into a torrent of JavaScript from shady third-party servers.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 2,705
    Toms said:

    The INDEPENDENT site is so desperately cluttered I avoid it almost invariably.

    If you think that's bad take a look at the regional news sites called somewhere live, I think owned by the Mirror group. An appalling assault on the senses. For example https://www.devonlive.com/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 34,831
    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    The INDEPENDENT site is so desperately cluttered I avoid it almost invariably.

    I have an adblocker, so the Independent and the Mail are not available to me unless I turn it off (which I don't). It has so far blocked 403,000 ads.
    Bring back the London Times with little ads at the top of the front page!
    And no news from furriners until page 13!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859

    IshmaelZ said:

    Micropayments used to be rejected as unworkable, but that was in the days before PayPal and I think they would work fine these days. I would worry about unintended consequences though; wouldn't things get ultra clickbaity? If clickbait is a problem now when the prize is just page impressions to keep the advertisers happy, what will it be like if the reward is instant hard cash?

    Yes, you really want to tweak the incentives a bit rather than just doing pay-per-click. For instance, have an option, after you read the article, to click "Meh" and have the money go not just to the paper that printed it but instead to be pooled among all the papers in the scheme.

    You could do something similar for accuracy: Papers probably do actually want to write accurate stuff, but they have to balance that against the need for clicks. So have a rating system later on after more evidence is in - either a panel of experts or a jury of users - and have that direct some of the payments away from the publishers of articles that turned out to be shitty, and towards ones that turned out to be good.
    Or combine it with a eating system, like Uber has. Would you click on a link that was rated as 2.1/10
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    ‘What if, rather than everything being either free-to-read or paywalled but for subscriptions, it was possible to buy articles on a case-by-case basis, for a few pence each?’

    Surely PayPal already exists?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,734
    edited July 25
    People need to forget print, stop trying to make old models work on the internet and start again. The problem journalism has to solve is that breaking news and commentary are available for free everywhere. It’s the factual, thoughtful stuff that is in short supply.
  • coachcoach Posts: 210
    A good, if sad article about the state of printed media. Enormous economic repercussions for the printing and distribution industries, as well as newsagents.

    Hard to know what those people will do with themselves, it seems before long we'll all either work for the state or Amazon
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    coach said:

    A good, if sad article about the state of printed media. Enormous economic repercussions for the printing and distribution industries, as well as newsagents.

    Hard to know what those people will do with themselves, it seems before long we'll all either work for the state or Amazon

    I’m relieved you think the state won’t be taken over by Amazon.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,100
    Is there really even a problem here? I dont find it difficult to get news. BBC, MailOnline, Guardian, Skynews at the top of the UK tree with thousands of sites below them. For commentary there is a wider range of sites than ever before, some like this one are very informed.

    Guardian for example went from losing £100k a day a decade ago to breaking even in 2019, their model already works fine for them, and works for customers too.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,100
    Jonathan said:

    People need to forget print, stop trying to make old models work on the internet and start again. The problem journalism has to solve is that breaking news and commentary are available for free everywhere. It’s the factual, thoughtful stuff that is in short supply.

    Isnt thoughtful commentary?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 82,942
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103

    Jonathan said:

    People need to forget print, stop trying to make old models work on the internet and start again. The problem journalism has to solve is that breaking news and commentary are available for free everywhere. It’s the factual, thoughtful stuff that is in short supply.

    Isnt thoughtful commentary?
    Well, not for those of us who have the sense to read PB, of course.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,734

    Jonathan said:

    People need to forget print, stop trying to make old models work on the internet and start again. The problem journalism has to solve is that breaking news and commentary are available for free everywhere. It’s the factual, thoughtful stuff that is in short supply.

    Isnt thoughtful commentary?
    I find you get useful, thoughtful and insightful commentary on politics here for free. You do not need to look far to find equivalent sites for technology, business or scientific content. I am not sure there is a business there for paid commentary.

    Provenance, facts and longer form content are in shorter supply.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859
    ydoethur said:

    coach said:

    A good, if sad article about the state of printed media. Enormous economic repercussions for the printing and distribution industries, as well as newsagents.

    Hard to know what those people will do with themselves, it seems before long we'll all either work for the state or Amazon

    I’m relieved you think the state won’t be taken over by Amazon.
    So long as the state does as it's told, a formal takeover is unnecessary.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859
    Countdown 1945, about the last days of the atomic bomb project, is an excellent read.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 1,573

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    And on the basis of that, doesn’t apply to manslaughter anyway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    rcs1000 said:

    Countdown 1945, about the last days of the atomic bomb project, is an excellent read.

    Is it narrated by Rachel Riley?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    edited July 25
    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    And on the basis of that, doesn’t apply to manslaughter anyway.
    I think that may be covered under ‘murder,’ as manslaughter cases have been put forward in the recent past:

    https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/barney-coyle-guildford-manslaughter-killer-17777862

    Edit - and in that case, the sentence was increased:

    https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/guildford-manslaughter-barney-coyle-jail-17949073

    Incidentally, with a case like that to go on as part of a sentencing guideline, the judge is going to have a hard time justifying less than ten years in this altogether more shocking case.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859
    I'm introducing a micro payments system on here.

    Every post you make requires a 1c bet on Hillary Clinton to be next US President on Betfair. I will be requiring screenshots of positions to match post numbers. I will, of course, be taking the other side of the bets.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 4,542

    I also have an ad blocker - it's not aimed at the ads, it's aimed at all the trackers and insecure junk that comes along with the ads. Unfortunately there's no way to keep the ads without opting into a torrent of JavaScript from shady third-party servers.

    Have you tried pi-hole?
  • NorthCadbollNorthCadboll Posts: 304
    Excellent article as always David. I stopped buying The Scotsman when my mother died 3 years ago and I no longer had a reason to drive the 4 miles to the village shop where her magazine subscriptions were handled. I stopped reading the local paper a year later because to be honest I only bought it to check on who had died!

    There is another reason why the print newspapers are dying. Like far too many members of the PB community their opinions are irrelevant outside London. Would the Guardian have survived this long if it wasn't the darling of the public sector. Take away all the publicly funded subscriptions by councils etc and how many readers outside London would it have?

    I tend to look to SKY News. Invariably they have a man or woman on the scene when the BBC is still talking about some utterly trivial media darling.

    One thing Covid-19 has shown only too clearly is how badly the London media circus is struggling to come to terms with the fact that in most aspects of ordinary daily life, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are foreign countries to England and therefore the output of the London-centric media offers little. Why would I care about whether people in London are wearing facemasks in shops since Friday? We have been doing it in Scotland for a fortnight. Why should I be interested in whether or not English schools will return to "normal" in September? The Scottish schools are due to return in a little over 2 weeks time. Two of an increasing list of topics where the London print media is irrelevant to the roughly 10 million people who aren't English but inhabit these islands.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,198
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
    IANAL, but I thought that this case was very, very close to the border between murder and manslaughter, and unless I've missed something the verdict was the jury's decision, not the judge's.The judge obviously advised on the law. Otherwise I agree with The Doctor; let's wait for next Friday and see what sentence is given.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 82,942
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
    Regarding Tony's legal reforms, you could tell he had done a law based degree at Oxford University, which led to the fiasco about abolishing the Lord Chancellor.

    Not so long ago the Home Secretary had the power to increase sentences but that power was pretty much taken away from politicians when a case was brought against Michael Howard.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 82,942
    edited July 25
    On topic, I personally subscribe to The Times and The Athletic.

    Via work I get access to the FT, Bloomberg, and the Wall Street Journal.

    It works well for me, and I'm not keen on micro payments as it might lead to click bait.

    I do think Apple's approach (or something similar might be the way to go.)

    UK Subscribers to Enjoy Personalised, Comprehensive Access to Over 150 Publications Within Apple News for £9.99 a month.

    https://www.apple.com/uk/newsroom/2019/09/apple-launches-apple-news-plus-in-the-uk/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859
    On topic, I pay for the FT, the Washington Post, the LA Times and NYTimes Cooking.

    If I were giving up publications, I would lose the LA Times first, the FT second, the Washington Post third, my children fourth, and the NY Times Cooking site fifth.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
    IANAL, but I thought that this case was very, very close to the border between murder and manslaughter, and unless I've missed something the verdict was the jury's decision, not the judge's.The judge obviously advised on the law. Otherwise I agree with The Doctor; let's wait for next Friday and see what sentence is given.
    I'm going to make £50 from @Pagan2 when they get sent down :smiley:
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,166
    I don’t think articles are like music. They have far less worth because you’ll only tend to read them once.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,190
    I dropped my Nytimes subscription. Have bought economist for 2 years which I'm enjoying (Although their app has a few glitches). I used to get Times through an online course o was doing but that's stopped and I don't miss it. Planning to buy guardian subscription. Tempted by the athletic, but know i would lose a lot of time to those football behind the scenes stories.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 82,942
    edited July 25

    I don’t think articles are like music. They have far less worth because you’ll only tend to read them once.

    I'd pay £500 for this article. I think it works out at 0.0000001 penny for every time I have read it.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,828
    News coverage also suffers from alternative sources now.

    One of the last things I saw on ITV News was the incredulity of two men not much older than me discussing how much time people spend watching Youtube.

    I used to watch the news when I ate lunch. It grew increasingly tedious and I stopped. Now I watch history or videogame stuff on Youtube. And it's been surprising how little I miss the news, which I also used to watch at 10pm and now don't. Occasionally catch little bits of Outside Source, which can be interesting, but the lack of straight down the line objectivity as epitomised by the regurgitations and rambling of Peston or the terrible important opinions of Emily Maitlis don't exactly encourage me to watch more.

    Meanwhile, Andrew Neil appears to be overlooked.

    On the papers front: subscriptions are surely the way to go. It works for independent creators via Patreon, no reason it can't work for a paper that people actually want to read.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859
    edited July 25
    rkrkrk said:

    I dropped my Nytimes subscription. Have bought economist for 2 years which I'm enjoying (Although their app has a few glitches). I used to get Times through an online course o was doing but that's stopped and I don't miss it. Planning to buy guardian subscription. Tempted by the athletic, but know i would lose a lot of time to those football behind the scenes stories.

    If I had two choices, returning home from a business trip with a case of syphilis or having to read the Economist via their app, I think I'd choose syphilis.

    On the subject of the NYT, I assume you don't cook.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 200
    I subscribe to The Times print edition, which means I have to buy the paper with paper vouchers. Not all newsagents accept them, and there can be occasional problems with the computers in supermarkets about whether the voucher is for the correct day or the correct price. Also, in Tesco a member of staff has to certify that the voucher is valid. This is not required in Sainsbury's if you are using a self-checkout machine.

    It seems like an old-fashioned system in today's world, but anything in print seems old-fashioned these days. I don't think that the print editions can be replaced with an online version as if this would be exactly equivalent. With a printed paper you can just turn the pages and be surprised by the contents. With an online newspaper you tend to find only what you are looking for. With a print newspaper you have a permanent record that will still be there in 100 years’ time in a reference library. What permanent record is there of an online newspaper that is behind a paywall? I do hope that the print newspapers survive.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,273
    edited July 25
    I don't buy a paper (Times)every day but when I feel like it . i don't think the frequency of me buying papers has changed over 20 years though (except see below) . However I accept young people (below 40) just have never had the habit as an adult to buy physical papers so they will decline further.
    i have been buying less frequently in 2020 due to the domination of news about covid -19 and depressing pictures of people in face masks in many an edition. I buy when I feel optimistic about the world and think papers would sell more if they shifted to more positive stories
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,828
    F1: Germany, Portugal, and Imola have been added to the calendar.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 3,750
    edited July 25
    USA Dem Veep nominee -- Karen Bass is into 11/2 on Betfair but you can get 7/1 from Ladbrokes, and possibly more with an odds boost. Ladbrokes is alone in the village in still quoting Bass at a longer price than Tammy Duckworth.

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,273
    I also used to subscribe to the Economist but found i valued it less if I got it every week and (to keep up) skimmed read it more. Again now I buy it when I feel in the mood and hence enjoy it more .Still love to buy the Economist and read it cover to cover on a holiday abroad but again 2020 there are no holidays!
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,273
    Physical papers are like Radio 3 and BBC4 in that they are comforting things even if you don't purchase or consume them much. You know they are there in the background if needed. As such I don't begrudge price increases for such things .Feel the same about some physical venues like the Globe , Caesars Palace in Las Vegas and the Major Oak in Sherwood Forest. Rarely go to them but would miss them if gone
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    Seems like a good idea.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198
    edited July 25
    Not sure how David managed to write a post about the online news/newspaper market without mentioning the elephant in the room: the BBC.

    (If composing such a post, I might also have mentioned the globalisation of this industry, eg that readership of the New York Times etc has shot through the roof in England.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 5,106

    I don’t think articles are like music. They have far less worth because you’ll only tend to read them once.

    I'd pay £500 for this article. I think it works out at 0.0000001 penny for every time I have read it.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
    It is not just the inaccurate prediction that gives you poor value for your £500. The flowery prose is almost unreadable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 74,050
    fox327 said:

    I subscribe to The Times print edition, which means I have to buy the paper with paper vouchers. Not all newsagents accept them, and there can be occasional problems with the computers in supermarkets about whether the voucher is for the correct day or the correct price. Also, in Tesco a member of staff has to certify that the voucher is valid. This is not required in Sainsbury's if you are using a self-checkout machine.

    It seems like an old-fashioned system in today's world, but anything in print seems old-fashioned these days. I don't think that the print editions can be replaced with an online version as if this would be exactly equivalent. With a printed paper you can just turn the pages and be surprised by the contents. With an online newspaper you tend to find only what you are looking for. With a print newspaper you have a permanent record that will still be there in 100 years’ time in a reference library. What permanent record is there of an online newspaper that is behind a paywall? I do hope that the print newspapers survive.

    I believe the British Library should capture newspaper websites
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,083
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
    Wait, are you saying that devolution didn't kill Scottish nationalism stone dead?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,202
    I subscribe to loads of magazines on Pocketmag - Classic Porsche, Car, EVO, Bike, Pro Cycling, MBUK, Classic & Sports Car and Classic Car Mart. Reading them on the iPad Pro is better than paper.

    I don't need any news subscriptions because I just read all Scott's tweets on here.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 34,309
    Thanks David, good to see a header on this.

    We will sorely miss them when they are gone.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 34,309
    Interesting to note that Spectator has had a bit of a boom in subscriptions recently.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 74,050

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    No the Attorney General has the power to review sentences as that link makes clear.

    The Court of Appeal has no power to then lower sentences only increase them.

    Plus Parliament is sovereign not judges anyway and the Tories have a majority of 80 and Boris and Cummings can thus amend the law including retrospectively whatever the Appeal Court thinks
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198

    Excellent article as always David. I stopped buying The Scotsman when my mother died 3 years ago and I no longer had a reason to drive the 4 miles to the village shop where her magazine subscriptions were handled. I stopped reading the local paper a year later because to be honest I only bought it to check on who had died!

    There is another reason why the print newspapers are dying. Like far too many members of the PB community their opinions are irrelevant outside London. Would the Guardian have survived this long if it wasn't the darling of the public sector. Take away all the publicly funded subscriptions by councils etc and how many readers outside London would it have?

    I tend to look to SKY News. Invariably they have a man or woman on the scene when the BBC is still talking about some utterly trivial media darling.

    One thing Covid-19 has shown only too clearly is how badly the London media circus is struggling to come to terms with the fact that in most aspects of ordinary daily life, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are foreign countries to England and therefore the output of the London-centric media offers little. Why would I care about whether people in London are wearing facemasks in shops since Friday? We have been doing it in Scotland for a fortnight. Why should I be interested in whether or not English schools will return to "normal" in September? The Scottish schools are due to return in a little over 2 weeks time. Two of an increasing list of topics where the London print media is irrelevant to the roughly 10 million people who aren't English but inhabit these islands.

    Agreed, but it was evident long before Covid19 that England’s media just couldn’t cope with the challenge of attempting to be the UK’s media. To be honest, they barely tried.

    The murder of the Scotsman (thanks Andrew Neil) and the Herald by forces outwith Scotland is a national tragedy, and their loss is still profoundly felt. Our country needs new high-quality media to accurately and honestly report to our nation.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 34,309

    USA Dem Veep nominee -- Karen Bass is into 11/2 on Betfair but you can get 7/1 from Ladbrokes, and possibly more with an odds boost. Ladbrokes is alone in the village in still quoting Bass at a longer price than Tammy Duckworth.

    Yet Rice is at 4. This is just about her lowest for a month (briefly 3.9 last week).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 34,831
    Dura_Ace said:

    I subscribe to loads of magazines on Pocketmag - Classic Porsche, Car, EVO, Bike, Pro Cycling, MBUK, Classic & Sports Car and Classic Car Mart. Reading them on the iPad Pro is better than paper.

    I don't need any news subscriptions because I just read all Scott's tweets on here.

    ALL of them?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 5,106
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    And on the basis of that, doesn’t apply to manslaughter anyway.
    I think that may be covered under ‘murder,’ as manslaughter cases have been put forward in the recent past:

    https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/barney-coyle-guildford-manslaughter-killer-17777862

    Edit - and in that case, the sentence was increased:

    https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/guildford-manslaughter-barney-coyle-jail-17949073

    Incidentally, with a case like that to go on as part of a sentencing guideline, the judge is going to have a hard time justifying less than ten years in this altogether more shocking case.
    The details of Mr Harper's final minutes are so harrowing I have to turn the radio volume down when the court case is being reported.

    Even if Boris and Dom turn the UK into a MadMax post-apocalyptic waste land after Coronavirus and Brexit, all they have to do is trawl this case up. If Boris were to don the black cap for these three, he would get my vote, and I am wholly opposed to capital punishment.

    These three feral animals deserve the same fate they meted out to PC Harper
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 11,710
    Looking at the front page of today's Daily Star, it has turned into Viz.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,202
    HYUFD said:



    Plus Parliament is sovereign not judges anyway and the Tories have a majority of 80 and Boris and Cummings can thus amend the law including retrospectively whatever the Appeal Court thinks

    Der Morgige Tag ist Mein!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198
    Fishing said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
    Wait, are you saying that devolution didn't kill Scottish nationalism stone dead?
    When Tony Blair attended Fettes in Edinburgh, the SNP did not hold a single seat, and support for Scottish independence was in single figures. You make your own mind up about the effects of devolution.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 2,809
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    No the Attorney General has the power to review sentences as that link makes clear.

    The Court of Appeal has no power to then lower sentences only increase them.

    Plus Parliament is sovereign not judges anyway and the Tories have a majority of 80 and Boris and Cummings can thus amend the law including retrospectively whatever the Appeal Court thinks
    Retrospectively changing the law should NEVER be allowed. I know a couple of such changes have happened, but the whole idea stinks.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 2,809
    edited July 25
    On topic: one reason for buying a physical copy is so you can do the crossword and/or sudoku. On numerous occasions, for instance long train rides, I have bought a Times or Telegraph just for that.

    The Guardian and Times now have their crosswords on their apps, but it is not the same.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 5,106
    Dura_Ace said:

    I subscribe to loads of magazines on Pocketmag - Classic Porsche, Car, EVO, Bike, Pro Cycling, MBUK, Classic & Sports Car and Classic Car Mart. Reading them on the iPad Pro is better than paper.

    I don't need any news subscriptions because I just read all Scott's tweets on here.

    Yes, Scott has singlehandedly brought the print media to its knees.

    No one need look further than PB for up to the minute developments. I first learned of the deaths of Stirling Moss and Vera Lynn on PB along with Ghislaine Maxwell's arrest and Jeffrey Epstein's demise. An AP or Reuters wire feed arrives on PB a second or two after release.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,859
    Dura_Ace said:

    I subscribe to loads of magazines on Pocketmag - Classic Porsche, Car, EVO, Bike, Pro Cycling, MBUK, Classic & Sports Car and Classic Car Mart. Reading them on the iPad Pro is better than paper.

    I don't need any news subscriptions because I just read all Scott's tweets on here.

    Is the Taycan a classic Porsche?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,190
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I dropped my Nytimes subscription. Have bought economist for 2 years which I'm enjoying (Although their app has a few glitches). I used to get Times through an online course o was doing but that's stopped and I don't miss it. Planning to buy guardian subscription. Tempted by the athletic, but know i would lose a lot of time to those football behind the scenes stories.

    If I had two choices, returning home from a business trip with a case of syphilis or having to read the Economist via their app, I think I'd choose syphilis.

    On the subject of the NYT, I assume you don't cook.
    Cooking more than ever before thanks to lockdown.
    I actually didn't know about the Cooking subscription.

    BBC Good Food (with ratings check) has never let me down. I copy the really good ones into a recipe notebook so I can look back.

    I don't love cooking from a screen. I have the memory of a goldfish when it comes to recipes and need to recheck over and over again.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 223
    I'm obviously in a very small minority here, but I'd be very unhappy if print press disappeared. I still buy a hard copy paper every day except Sunday, and get Private Eye delivered. Over lunch I spread it out and enjoy reading sports, columns and some news. There's always stuff I haven't seen, or wouldn't both to read, online. In the evening me and other half do the crossword(s) together. Then I finish the rest of the paper off over breakfast the next day. I don't want to look at a screen all day. Print papers are easier to share, and more likely to promote discussion. And you can just ignore the ads.

    Mind you, I still read hard copy books, so I must be a real dinosaur.
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 130
    Do think the idea of paying for a journalist column might work. The Times is the only newspaper worth spending money on but i find on mondays to fridays i can read it for free in the local supermarket if i want .
    The newspapers i find have maybe 1 or 2 journalists with original ideas that are worth reading .Those journalists (Simon Jenkins ,Richard Littlejohn,John Gray etc) i might pay to read.
    I subscribe to a recently launched monthly magazine called 'The Critic' which i would recommend.It fills in a gap in the market for interesting contrarian views.The Critic has a website.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198

    Looking at the front page of today's Daily Star, it has turned into Viz.

    I subscribe to Viz, one of only two publications I currently subscribe to. It is fantastic. Much better than it used to be in the 1980s/early 1990s when I last read it. I only rediscovered it a few years ago. I can highly recommend The Broon Windsors, the Drunken Bakers and Eight Ace: contemporary social commentary of high class.

    I get nearly all world media, including most UK titles, absolutely free on PressReader, which comes free with my Swedish library card. (Including Viz incidentally, but I still pay a subscription cos I love the real paper object.)

    I miss The Economist and Private Eye from PressReader, but I just get the paper The Economist free when I’m at the main city centre library, and I buy the Private Eye when I’m visiting England or Scotland.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 5,106
    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I subscribe to loads of magazines on Pocketmag - Classic Porsche, Car, EVO, Bike, Pro Cycling, MBUK, Classic & Sports Car and Classic Car Mart. Reading them on the iPad Pro is better than paper.

    I don't need any news subscriptions because I just read all Scott's tweets on here.

    Is the Taycan a classic Porsche?
    No, simply because it has four doors. It is just a very fast electric taxi.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 34,369
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    No the Attorney General has the power to review sentences as that link makes clear.

    The Court of Appeal has no power to then lower sentences only increase them.

    Plus Parliament is sovereign not judges anyway and the Tories have a majority of 80 and Boris and Cummings can thus amend the law including retrospectively whatever the Appeal Court thinks
    Your last paragraph shames you and more importantly that a conservative member could even spout such rubbish
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,083
    edited July 25

    Fishing said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
    Wait, are you saying that devolution didn't kill Scottish nationalism stone dead?
    When Tony Blair attended Fettes in Edinburgh, the SNP did not hold a single seat, and support for Scottish independence was in single figures. You make your own mind up about the effects of devolution.
    I think for me, devolution was one of the three great catalysts that have led to that increase:

    - the Labour Opposition's denial that Thatcherism had democratic legitimacy in Scotland, which undermined the legitimacy of the Union
    - the Labour Governmnent granting devolution, which created an alternative power centre in Edinburgh, while not creating a fully federal UK, so the structure always looked half-baked
    - the fact that, whatever one thinks of their record in government, the SNP have had two of the most skilful political leaders of my lifetime in Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.

    A fourth might be the Brexit referendum, but I'm not so convinced that's led to an Indy surge.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,202
    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I subscribe to loads of magazines on Pocketmag - Classic Porsche, Car, EVO, Bike, Pro Cycling, MBUK, Classic & Sports Car and Classic Car Mart. Reading them on the iPad Pro is better than paper.

    I don't need any news subscriptions because I just read all Scott's tweets on here.

    Is the Taycan a classic Porsche?
    It will be. Remember Porsche was an electric car company before it was ever an internal combustion car company...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198
    Metatron said:

    Do think the idea of paying for a journalist column might work. The Times is the only newspaper worth spending money on but i find on mondays to fridays i can read it for free in the local supermarket if i want .
    The newspapers i find have maybe 1 or 2 journalists with original ideas that are worth reading .Those journalists (Simon Jenkins ,Richard Littlejohn,John Gray etc) i might pay to read.
    I subscribe to a recently launched monthly magazine called 'The Critic' which i would recommend.It fills in a gap in the market for interesting contrarian views.The Critic has a website.

    Cheers! Never heard of it, but just took a peek and find that I also get The Critic free on PressReader. 😊
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    Royal Mail best not f*ck me today. My brand new girlfriend’s birthday present was sent through 1st class post and failed to arrive yesterday when it was supposed to. If it doesn’t come today I’m screwed!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    edited July 25
    I would buy the times but frankly the app is pretty crap. It has to be a pleasure for me to use otherwise I won’t bother.

    The same is true of the guardian and the financial times.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    Whoever it is with, the mere implication that Dominic Cummings might be in some way involved was enough to make me hear the opening bars of the Horst Wessel song.

    The option of a life sentence is open to the judge. Let’s see if it gets taken before we start talking about what happens next.

    But isn’t it slightly ironic that Tony Blair’s attempts to separate the judiciary and the legislature (like most of his constitutional reforms, half baked, based on a lack of understanding of how the system worked and designed more to showcase Tone’s greatness than to correct a fault) seem to have had the opposite effect?
    Wait, are you saying that devolution didn't kill Scottish nationalism stone dead?
    When Tony Blair attended Fettes in Edinburgh, the SNP did not hold a single seat, and support for Scottish independence was in single figures. You make your own mind up about the effects of devolution.
    I think for me, devolution was one of the three great catalysts that have led to that increase:

    - the Labour Opposition's denial that Thatcherism had democratic legitimacy in Scotland, which undermined the legitimacy of the Union
    - the Labour Governmnent granting devolution, which created an alternative power centre in Edinburgh, while not creating a fully federal UK, so the structure always looked half-baked
    - the fact that, whatever one thinks of their record in government, the SNP have had two of the most skilful political leaders of my lifetime in Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.

    A fourth might be the Brexit referendum, but I'm not so convinced that's led to an Indy surge.
    Very interesting post, with some merit. But you miss out tons of juicy stuff. Unfortunately I have a six hour car journey ahead of me, so will be largely offline today, but I’ll try to respond when I have time.

    (Agree re Brexit referendum: effect thus far remarkably tiny. But please note that we’re not out yet!)
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,273
    edited July 25
    the other media that I prefer in physical form to electronic is Guide books. This causes some argument with my wife who just looks things up on her phone as to where to go when on holiday wheras i just love getting out a Rough Guide or Lonely Planet in the middle of some old square in Europe and telling my bored family about the history of the square when they just want to go souvenir shopping or sit in a cafe
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 11,710

    Royal Mail best not f*ck me today. My brand new girlfriend’s birthday present was sent through 1st class post and failed to arrive yesterday when it was supposed to. If it doesn’t come today I’m screwed!

    Schoolboy error.

    Never start going out with someone just before their birthday. Having to fork out on a present early in a relationship is a bit much.

    This is why people ask 'What's your star sign?' - then walk away if they give the one just about to start!

    Anyhow, I hope it turns up and you both have a great day.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,190
    Fishing said:



    When Tony Blair attended Fettes in Edinburgh, the SNP did not hold a single seat, and support for Scottish independence was in single figures. You make your own mind up about the effects of devolution.

    I think for me, devolution was one of the three great catalysts that have led to that increase:

    - the Labour Opposition's denial that Thatcherism had democratic legitimacy in Scotland, which undermined the legitimacy of the Union
    - the Labour Governmnent granting devolution, which created an alternative power centre in Edinburgh, while not creating a fully federal UK, so the structure always looked half-baked
    - the fact that, whatever one thinks of their record in government, the SNP have had two of the most skilful political leaders of my lifetime in Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.

    A fourth might be the Brexit referendum, but I'm not so convinced that's led to an Indy surge.
    Surely another big factor is continuing Tory governments in Westminster.
    Labour actually increased its vote in 2010 in Scotland under Gordon Brown.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    Thank you @SandyRentool. We’re going out for food and drinks in the Toon tonight, masks and all. It will be interesting what that’s like - very romantic I assume.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 34,369
    I see little or no future for the print media to be honest as most everything is available on line or through the broadcast media. It is sad but we are living through change the like of which none of us could foresee or predict

    Just seeing the dreadful pictures on Sky from Portland as near civil war erupts on the streets

    The US is self destructing
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 74,050

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    No the Attorney General has the power to review sentences as that link makes clear.

    The Court of Appeal has no power to then lower sentences only increase them.

    Plus Parliament is sovereign not judges anyway and the Tories have a majority of 80 and Boris and Cummings can thus amend the law including retrospectively whatever the Appeal Court thinks
    Your last paragraph shames you and more importantly that a conservative member could even spout such rubbish
    It was factually accurate and Parliament has made laws retrospectively before on occasion even if in legal principle it should not it has the power to do so
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 20,282
    edited July 25
    The Times is the only newspaper worth paying for IMO, so I do. Their model of getting the paywall up early when paper sales were still substantial has allowed then to secure their long term future. I remember many, many people on here berating them for it and saying they'd become irrelevant. Now it's the opposite, the Times is the only newspaper with a large enough subscriber base to survive for the long term.

    On micropayments, that won't ever work. What will change is newspapers are going to pimp themselves out to affiliate marketing a lot more. The Daily Mail already does this extremely successfully with their sidebar of shame which exists to generate click-through revenue. How Guardian readers will feel about being sold bikinis and tanning oil with faux reviews and "articles" about Meghan isn't clear...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 5,106
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I subscribe to loads of magazines on Pocketmag - Classic Porsche, Car, EVO, Bike, Pro Cycling, MBUK, Classic & Sports Car and Classic Car Mart. Reading them on the iPad Pro is better than paper.

    I don't need any news subscriptions because I just read all Scott's tweets on here.

    Is the Taycan a classic Porsche?
    It will be. Remember Porsche was an electric car company before it was ever an internal combustion car company...
    Still too many doors.

    Example:
    Skyline R33 GTR Coupe = £25,000 classic
    Skyline R33 GTR Sedan=The value of the drivetrain to make an R33 GTS Coupe into a £15000 GTR Coupe replica.

    P.S. Way off topic!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 34,369
    edited July 25
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t a micropayment system just lead to click bait? Subscription based models do at least bring brand loyalty and an incentive to maintain quality.

    Re: previous thread and line of “murder or manslaughter, what matters is the sentence”.

    Isn’t one of the issues that the judge’s sentence is just the start - the crime they are convicted of is likely to have a big impact on the likelihood and terms of future parole?

    Also FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyway Manslaughter can carry the same sentence as Murder anyway, just not the mandatory life sentence. Not sure what the issue is really.

    Let's hope the judge hasn't been nobbled. ;)
    Even then the Attorney General now has the last word on sentencing if needed and if Boris thinks it is a weak sentence and wants to shore up the Sun and Mail vote and the Red Wall he and Cummings will just tell Braverman to impose life sentences on all 3
    Deeply uneasy though I am about activist judges making up laws to suit their own prejudices, I am still more uneasy about the idea of politicians interfering with judicial processes for political gain.

    As for non-politicians, especially thick ones, like Cummings, who thinks facts are unimportant...
    I think HYUFD is talking rubbish again.

    The final word isn’t with the Attorney General but the Court of Appeal.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
    No the Attorney General has the power to review sentences as that link makes clear.

    The Court of Appeal has no power to then lower sentences only increase them.

    Plus Parliament is sovereign not judges anyway and the Tories have a majority of 80 and Boris and Cummings can thus amend the law including retrospectively whatever the Appeal Court thinks
    Your last paragraph shames you and more importantly that a conservative member could even spout such rubbish
    It was factually accurate and Parliament has made laws retrospectively before on occasion even if in legal principle it should not it has the power to do so
    Why do you even go down these obscure and frankly idiotic ideas

    It brings no credit on our party
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 3,750

    USA Dem Veep nominee -- Karen Bass is into 11/2 on Betfair but you can get 7/1 from Ladbrokes, and possibly more with an odds boost. Ladbrokes is alone in the village in still quoting Bass at a longer price than Tammy Duckworth.

    Yet Rice is at 4. This is just about her lowest for a month (briefly 3.9 last week).
    Joe Biden's timetable was to have completed background checks this last week before moving on to speak personally with the remaining contenders before announcing his choice next month. There will no doubt be more in the American Sunday papers tomorrow about who remains in the frame.

    Some information -- or is it mere speculation? -- about the background checks may have leaked into the betting market, as Michelle Lujan Grisham and Stacey Abrams moved markedly out on Betfair a couple of days back. Susan Rice was 20/1 last month, Karen Bass 20/1 as recently as last week.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,083



    The US is self destructing

    America has had riots and even a Civil War before and has survived and flourished.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 34,369
    Fishing said:



    The US is self destructing

    America has had riots and even a Civil War before and has survived and flourished.
    It has not had a Trump before
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