How long before somebody suggests that the timing of the announcement was made/delayed to allow Shapps to go on his holiday without defying Govt guidance on “all but essential travel”?
Oops, done it now...
I posted an equally cynical view that it was delayed until day after Johnson had done is 100 days of PM interview round.
Champions League match between Manchester City and Real Madrid will be held at the English club's Etihad stadium on August 7 as planned, despite the imposition in the United Kingdom of a quarantine on travelers arriving from Spain, reports this Sunday "The Sun". The newspaper assures that the British Conservative Government has no intention of revoking the exemptions it announced this month for certain sporting events, which means that the meeting may take place in England behind closed doors.
Man City v Norwich: you can get 70/1 on a 0-0 draw. That`s astonishing. While I don`t believe the match will end 0-0, the odds on that outcome are way too high. I`d price it at around 20/1. I`ve had a few quid on.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
Outdoor raves and beach parties don't seem to become superspreader events, we've had plenty of illegal outdoors raves in the UK and it hasn't really made a difference to the overall picture. Nightclubs really do seem like the major transmission vector in a lot of the countries seeing second waves. Hopefully the government here are learning from that and keep them closed until there is a viable treatment option or a vaccine.
I assume after todays action on Spain and reports covid is reaching new highs of infection across the world most people will decide to take the safer option and remain in the UK this year and maybe even next year
This is a betting site and discussions about the prospects for 2024 election are understandable but nobody can have any idea of the outcome as all parties face the fallout of covid 19 and the upsetting of traditional ideas and ways of working
To be fair even I do not know who I will be voting for in 2024
Nothing is going to be the same again and it is how everyone adapts to the change coming and the consequences that will not only shape political parties but the policies and even the viability of those policies
A very reasonable comment. Though it does seem to slightly contradict your earlier comment that Labour can only become a "credible force" if Corbyn is expelled; as you recognise, there are bigger things at play.
I suspect there won't be enough evidence to expel Corbyn in the EHRC report, and that it won't matter. Many Corbyn fans have already left the party, and those who are still in the party have gone off him. He will be irrelevant by 2024, even if he is still a backbench MP.
Detailed review article in the Lancet on infectious aerosols.
Particle sizes of infectious aerosols: implications for infection control https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30323-4/fulltext ... These data show that infectious aerosols from humans exist in a wide range of particle sizes that are strikingly consistent across studies, methods, and pathogens. There is no evidence to support the concept that most respiratory infections are associated with primarily large droplet transmission. In fact, small particle aerosols are the rule, rather than the exception, contrary to current guidelines.12 These small particles occur without a need for a prolonged time to allow for desiccation, and they are of a size that is immediately respirable. These data also add evidence that could update the current dichotomous infection control guidelines, as was proposed 9 years ago....
Aren't the mask militants always telling us that non-medical masks and cloth face coverings are still effective because they intercept all those nasty large droplets?
We shall have to see if further evidence emerges to back this study up, but it just goes to remind us that our knowledge of this situation is fluid and ever-changing. As I remarked yesterday, back in April received wisdom was that cyclists and joggers were selfish, evil plague spreaders who all deserved to be shot; now that outdoor exercise is appreciated to be very low risk and obesity the single most important controllable risk factor for the disease, they're Heroes of the Revolution.
In the same way, received wisdom right now is that masks are essential because they catch coughs and sneezes; in another three or four months we might very well be right back to where we were in March, when they were regarded as worse than useless because they offer very limited protection, they're often not worn properly, they get filthy and people end up infecting themselves by fiddling with them, pulling them down and back up all the time and touching their faces in the process.
Or not. Evidence, evidence, more evidence is always helpful.
Interesting to see if more comes of the Portuguese development in masks I posted yesterday where the mask actually kills the virus.
That is interesting. I think PB's own @Charles recommended another virus-zapping mask a few days ago.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
A quiet pint and a pizza is most definitely not enough! My only complaint is people not tidying up after themselves. But the need for a bit of hedonism, excess, music, socialising, pulling, dancing and mind-altering states is I think fairly hard to suppress. I wouldn't mind a bit of it myself (except the pulling, obvs).
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
Outdoor raves and beach parties don't seem to become superspreader events, we've had plenty of illegal outdoors raves in the UK and it hasn't really made a difference to the overall picture. Nightclubs really do seem like the major transmission vector in a lot of the countries seeing second waves. Hopefully the government here are learning from that and keep them closed until there is a viable treatment option or a vaccine.
Yes, large indoor gatherings, especially where people are talking/shouting/singing, do seem to be the top way of spreading the virus.
If they didn’t know there was a risk of this happening, they’re idiots.
If they knew the risk, and went ahead anyway, well, the risk went sour. Bad luck.
If they knew the risk but thought it magically didn’t apply to them, they’re arrogant beyond the point of a Cummings or a Corbyn.
There is a reason why I have booked an October break in Wales, rather than the Med as I usually try for. And I won’t be going abroad again until the Rona is under control.
Yes, I will miss my nice sunny holidays, but I would miss two weeks’ pay much more.
It was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen, it was even discussed extensively on here when travel 'bridges' were first being considered...
Ha, there was always going to be a politician or two caught out as well.
I really don't understand the people who feel the need to go holiday in the middle of a global pandemic, and I type this from one of the places that usually empties out over the summer as hundreds of thousands of people travel to escape the heat! Very few people are leaving here this summer, and the local beach hotels are doing good offers if people want to get away for a few days. Strict immigration controls and lots of testing have allowed entertainment venues to re-open, although with reduced capacities.
With the number of cases worldwide still rising rapidly, places with a lot of travel were always going to get hit by a second wave once that travel resumed.
I don't know anyone travelling for leisure reasons at the moment, among a group of friends who are all pretty frequent flyers. I've not been on a plane since January, and usually do three or four trips a month. I'll be staying off planes until I've had a vaccine, thanks very much!
I’m taking my first flight since March (my family have been in CA for the 8 weeks) and I’m going to see them.
Heathrow is quiet but functioning well. Odd atmosphere though.
***** Betting Post ***** Despite all the negativity currently emanating from both the British and European negotiating teams as regards a trade deal being agreed and signed up by 31 Dec. 2020, the one betting market (Smarkets) offering such a market appears surprisingly confident that just such a deal can and will be done within this timescale. The latest traded prices being: Yes ..... 1.69 (59.17%) No....... 2.20 (45.45%)
Am I missing something here on what looks like a good bet on no deal?
As ever, DYOR.
Gosh that's interesting but imo for quite the opposite reason. As I've posted many times my very strong view is that "No Deal" - "WTO" - is a non-starter on every level and so some sort of Deal is a virtual certainty.
1.69 is therefore unbelievable value. Tempted to open an account with Smarkets just to do it.
Starmer has been pro union from day one and has said so on several occasions
He has but the party has not. Good to see consistent messaging.
Now to get rid of Leonard
And replace him with whom?
Of course with 40%+ of current SLab voters supporting Indy and a majority for indy ref II, you may have to replace some voters too.
Counting chickens and complacency on show
I'm just going on the available polling data and my knowledge of the talent in SLab. If you want to draw on your vast reservoir of Scotch expertise to put forward an alternative view, feel free. Who do you think should lead Scottish Labour, and how do you think they should change the minds of Labour voters inclined towards indy?
Anyone other than Leonard but the SNP are in danger of believing their own hypebole
As I posted earlier so much has changed with covid having a devastating effect on the UK economy, and Scotland's, which will have huge implications. When Scotland experiences the huge job losses and a devastated holiday and tourism business that is inevitable in just a few short months I doubt indy will be on peoples minds
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
A quiet pint and a pizza is most definitely not enough! My only complaint is people not tidying up after themselves. But the need for a bit of hedonism, excess, music, socialising, pulling, dancing and mind-altering states is I think fairly hard to suppress. I wouldn't mind a bit of it myself (except the pulling, obvs).
Indeed, absolutely don't begrudge young people having nights out. I miss them too tbf, though maybe not enough to go to an illegal outdoor rave!
If they didn’t know there was a risk of this happening, they’re idiots.
If they knew the risk, and went ahead anyway, well, the risk went sour. Bad luck.
If they knew the risk but thought it magically didn’t apply to them, they’re arrogant beyond the point of a Cummings or a Corbyn.
There is a reason why I have booked an October break in Wales, rather than the Med as I usually try for. And I won’t be going abroad again until the Rona is under control.
Yes, I will miss my nice sunny holidays, but I would miss two weeks’ pay much more.
It was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen, it was even discussed extensively on here when travel 'bridges' were first being considered.
But the holiday companies, airlines and media all lobbied hard and got their air bridges, only for popular destinations to have a virus outbreak and be removed from the list.
The question now is how easily can the UK government enforce quarantine on tens of thousands of people on their return? Apart from a few idiots who post pictures of their life constantly, or 'famous' people who might get caught by the paparazzi, it's not going to be easy. Are we expecting police to knock on doors every couple of days to make sure you're home?
Most people are fairly honourable
Plus if you have been on holiday there is a good chance your colleagues will know you’ve been to Spain
I do feel that the Government could consider tweaking the advice on self-isolation/quarantine a bit though. The requirement to stay within your home except for emergencies seems particularly draconian, and designed to encourage non compliance. Even dog walking isn’t allowed. Amend the rules slightly to prevent socialising with 3rd parties but allow leaving the house with suitable mask mitigation etc and I think people will be far happier to comply. Or even better an option to have a test after a few days.
I feel a bit sorry for Shapps and family who will no doubt have paparazzi camped outside for two weeks looking for slightest evidence of rule breaking.
Obviously doesn’t help people wanting to work - will be interesting to see if it causes problems for NHS resourcing.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
From what one can gather from the news, there have been some get-togethers like that but not very many - and if there have been great big disease eruptions associated with this sort of activity then they've not been widely reported. That may change but right now there seems no cause for undue concern.
How long before somebody suggests that the timing of the announcement was made/delayed to allow Shapps to go on his holiday without defying Govt guidance on “all but essential travel”?
Oops, done it now...
I posted an equally cynical view that it was delayed until day after Johnson had done is 100 days of PM interview round.
As Prof Van Tam confirmed the scientist told HMG yesterday to act on this occasion HMG are correct and does anyone think that Shapps would have gone to Spain yesterday if HMG knew earlier
I have been aware there was a potential problem in Spain as in Portugal for a number of weeks. Regarding 14 days quarantine the two countries were dealt with differently.
If the penny dropped at PHE only yesterday, their advice to HMG is as poor as many on here have earlier claimed.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
A quiet pint and a pizza is most definitely not enough! My only complaint is people not tidying up after themselves. But the need for a bit of hedonism, excess, music, socialising, pulling, dancing and mind-altering states is I think fairly hard to suppress. I wouldn't mind a bit of it myself (except the pulling, obvs).
Indeed, absolutely don't begrudge young people having nights out. I miss them too tbf, though maybe not enough to go to an illegal outdoor rave!
I reckon I am actually quite up for an illegal rave right now.
I think there are a few (not by any means all) countries who got a bit self congratulatory about how well they “handled” the pandemic compared especially to some of the bogeyman bigger countries, and haven’t acknowledged the extent to which luck or circumstance played a part. And after largely opening up are only flying under the radar a bit because their relative small size masks the extent of any problems they might be developing.
I think that's definitely true about the self congratulations. I don't think we were immune from that either, but places have gotten pretty nationalistic in assuming their citizens must be behaving better than others, or their statistics are the best, or that judging based outbreaks which may be weeks apart in their stages means they will end up being in a much ebtter position that someone else.
If they didn’t know there was a risk of this happening, they’re idiots.
If they knew the risk, and went ahead anyway, well, the risk went sour. Bad luck.
If they knew the risk but thought it magically didn’t apply to them, they’re arrogant beyond the point of a Cummings or a Corbyn.
There is a reason why I have booked an October break in Wales, rather than the Med as I usually try for. And I won’t be going abroad again until the Rona is under control.
Yes, I will miss my nice sunny holidays, but I would miss two weeks’ pay much more.
It was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen, it was even discussed extensively on here when travel 'bridges' were first being considered...
Ha, there was always going to be a politician or two caught out as well.
I really don't understand the people who feel the need to go holiday in the middle of a global pandemic, and I type this from one of the places that usually empties out over the summer as hundreds of thousands of people travel to escape the heat! Very few people are leaving here this summer, and the local beach hotels are doing good offers if people want to get away for a few days. Strict immigration controls and lots of testing have allowed entertainment venues to re-open, although with reduced capacities.
With the number of cases worldwide still rising rapidly, places with a lot of travel were always going to get hit by a second wave once that travel resumed.
I don't know anyone travelling for leisure reasons at the moment, among a group of friends who are all pretty frequent flyers. I've not been on a plane since January, and usually do three or four trips a month. I'll be staying off planes until I've had a vaccine, thanks very much!
I’m taking my first flight since March (my family have been in CA for the 8 weeks) and I’m going to see them.
Heathrow is quiet but functioning well. Odd atmosphere though.
We are back yesterday from two weeks in Croatia. We have had a great time time. It was like escaping prison.
Flights were fine. 100% mask usage - and didn`t feel too uncomfortable for the length of the flight. Croatia has been much more lightly effected by Covid than Uk, of course. Comparable to Greece. Atmosphere was almost as normal - shopkeepers wear masks and most shoppers put a mask on as they enter. Common sense prevails. Gel everywhere. We didn`t see a police office anywhere.
I`ve never visited Croatia and what a cracking nation it is. The locals were unbelievably happy to welcome us. Split and Dubrovnik are, I`m told, nightmare places in normal July/August period (cruise drop offs and Game of Thrones connections) but at the moment they are at 20% tourist numbers, so it is a great opportunity to visit. We stayed a week in Split Old Town and a week on a remote island. Speedboat back to the airport! Fantastic.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
A quiet pint and a pizza is most definitely not enough! My only complaint is people not tidying up after themselves. But the need for a bit of hedonism, excess, music, socialising, pulling, dancing and mind-altering states is I think fairly hard to suppress. I wouldn't mind a bit of it myself (except the pulling, obvs).
Indeed, absolutely don't begrudge young people having nights out. I miss them too tbf, though maybe not enough to go to an illegal outdoor rave!
I reckon I am actually quite up for an illegal rave right now.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
A quiet pint and a pizza is most definitely not enough! My only complaint is people not tidying up after themselves. But the need for a bit of hedonism, excess, music, socialising, pulling, dancing and mind-altering states is I think fairly hard to suppress. I wouldn't mind a bit of it myself (except the pulling, obvs).
Indeed, absolutely don't begrudge young people having nights out. I miss them too tbf, though maybe not enough to go to an illegal outdoor rave!
I reckon I am actually quite up for an illegal rave right now.
So am I. I said the same thing to my wife a few days ago. FFS we need to get some hedonism back into our fucking awful UK lives.
If they didn’t know there was a risk of this happening, they’re idiots.
If they knew the risk, and went ahead anyway, well, the risk went sour. Bad luck.
If they knew the risk but thought it magically didn’t apply to them, they’re arrogant beyond the point of a Cummings or a Corbyn.
There is a reason why I have booked an October break in Wales, rather than the Med as I usually try for. And I won’t be going abroad again until the Rona is under control.
Yes, I will miss my nice sunny holidays, but I would miss two weeks’ pay much more.
It was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen, it was even discussed extensively on here when travel 'bridges' were first being considered...
Ha, there was always going to be a politician or two caught out as well.
I really don't understand the people who feel the need to go holiday in the middle of a global pandemic, and I type this from one of the places that usually empties out over the summer as hundreds of thousands of people travel to escape the heat! Very few people are leaving here this summer, and the local beach hotels are doing good offers if people want to get away for a few days. Strict immigration controls and lots of testing have allowed entertainment venues to re-open, although with reduced capacities.
With the number of cases worldwide still rising rapidly, places with a lot of travel were always going to get hit by a second wave once that travel resumed.
I don't know anyone travelling for leisure reasons at the moment, among a group of friends who are all pretty frequent flyers. I've not been on a plane since January, and usually do three or four trips a month. I'll be staying off planes until I've had a vaccine, thanks very much!
Even with the risk of catching China flu, flying is still much safer per mile travelled than any other form of transport.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
Outdoor raves and beach parties don't seem to become superspreader events, we've had plenty of illegal outdoors raves in the UK and it hasn't really made a difference to the overall picture. Nightclubs really do seem like the major transmission vector in a lot of the countries seeing second waves. Hopefully the government here are learning from that and keep them closed until there is a viable treatment option or a vaccine.
Yes, large indoor gatherings, especially where people are talking/shouting/singing, do seem to be the top way of spreading the virus.
Indoor night clubs are not open everywhere in Spain I’m not aware of any open in Valencia where the last I heard was you couldn’t dance and sing in a bar, it might have changed. People are still gathering in large numbers on outdoor terraces though and that requires policing to maintain distancing and ensure people remain seated.
The polling suggests Trump has improved his voteshare relative to 2016 with the richest voters, who tend to be concentrated in coastal states but is doing worse with middle income and low income voters who Biden is doing better with than Hillary and who tend to be more concentrated in the rustbelt swing states.
That suggests Biden is better placed than Hillary to win the Electoral College but Trump could do better than he did in 2016 in coastal states like California and in the popular vote if he recovers with middle income voters too
The latest Economist/YouGov poll crosstabs has $50k-$100k grouping and in 2016 Trump won 50-46 among that sample and Economist/YouGov has him up 50-40 so in fact that contradicts your assertion.
That grouping - between $50k and $100k in income - is Trump's core.
I don't know enough about American median incomes by State to extrapolate that but some research would be helpful as to determine where this key income demographic is located and some sense of numbers.
I do feel that the Government could consider tweaking the advice on self-isolation/quarantine a bit though. The requirement to stay within your home except for emergencies seems particularly draconian, and designed to encourage non compliance.
Yes a draconian restriction without enforcement is the worst of all possible worlds. Just like virtually everything this government (with opposition support) has implemented since March.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
Outdoor raves and beach parties don't seem to become superspreader events, we've had plenty of illegal outdoors raves in the UK and it hasn't really made a difference to the overall picture. Nightclubs really do seem like the major transmission vector in a lot of the countries seeing second waves. Hopefully the government here are learning from that and keep them closed until there is a viable treatment option or a vaccine.
Yes, large indoor gatherings, especially where people are talking/shouting/singing, do seem to be the top way of spreading the virus.
Indoor night clubs are not open everywhere in Spain I’m not aware of any open in Valencia where the last I heard was you couldn’t dance and sing in a bar, it might have changed. People are still gathering in large numbers on outdoor terraces though and that requires policing to maintain distancing and ensure people remain seated.
Pubs and bars have no standing and no shouting rules here for that reason and for all the times I've been people seem to be ok sticking to them.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
A quiet pint and a pizza is most definitely not enough! My only complaint is people not tidying up after themselves. But the need for a bit of hedonism, excess, music, socialising, pulling, dancing and mind-altering states is I think fairly hard to suppress. I wouldn't mind a bit of it myself (except the pulling, obvs).
Indeed, absolutely don't begrudge young people having nights out. I miss them too tbf, though maybe not enough to go to an illegal outdoor rave!
I reckon I am actually quite up for an illegal rave right now.
I do feel that the Government could consider tweaking the advice on self-isolation/quarantine a bit though. The requirement to stay within your home except for emergencies seems particularly draconian, and designed to encourage non compliance.
Yes a draconian restriction without enforcement is the worst of all possible worlds. Just like virtually everything this government (with opposition support) has implemented since March.
I don't see how draconian rule without enforcement is worse than, say, rules not draconian enough. Even for something far from draconian it is simply impossible to enforce without voluntary compliance. Heck, that's the case for most normal laws as well. Very tough rules as guidance works for most, making gets you a few more, and those that are left would ignore it whether it is enforced or not.
Man City v Norwich: you can get 70/1 on a 0-0 draw. That`s astonishing. While I don`t believe the match will end 0-0, the odds on that outcome are way too high. I`d price it at around 20/1. I`ve had a few quid on.
Reckon that will be dead as a bet within 4 minutes!
He said it was a "key constituency for the SNP to secure a pro-independence majority in next year's Scottish parliamentary elections."
This isn't strictly accurate. Other things being equal, if the Tories lost Edinburgh Central, they would be compensated by a seat on the list, at the expense of the Greens, so not impacting the "pro-independence majority" at all.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
Regardless of what the Government does in situations like this it can't win. Anyone looking for an attack line will either say that it didn't act quite quickly enough or it was precipitous. Exactly the same thing would've happened if it had waited two days or two weeks before hitting Spain with the ban hammer.
Now, personally I'd rather they'd never put themselves into the situation in the first place by simply keeping the advice not to travel abroad full stop, and encourage the populace either to save its money or take its holidays here. But we are where we are, and the Spanish situation seems to me to have been handled properly.
Unless people are actually quarantined in hotels the moment they get off the plane aren’t we running the risk of what happened with visitors to Northern Italy earlier this year happening again? People travelling on public transport etc and going out even when quarantined thus potentially spreading the virus again.
Detailed review article in the Lancet on infectious aerosols.
Particle sizes of infectious aerosols: implications for infection control https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30323-4/fulltext ... These data show that infectious aerosols from humans exist in a wide range of particle sizes that are strikingly consistent across studies, methods, and pathogens. There is no evidence to support the concept that most respiratory infections are associated with primarily large droplet transmission. In fact, small particle aerosols are the rule, rather than the exception, contrary to current guidelines.12 These small particles occur without a need for a prolonged time to allow for desiccation, and they are of a size that is immediately respirable. These data also add evidence that could update the current dichotomous infection control guidelines, as was proposed 9 years ago....
Aren't the mask militants always telling us that non-medical masks and cloth face coverings are still effective because they intercept all those nasty large droplets?
We shall have to see if further evidence emerges to back this study up, but it just goes to remind us that our knowledge of this situation is fluid and ever-changing. As I remarked yesterday, back in April received wisdom was that cyclists and joggers were selfish, evil plague spreaders who all deserved to be shot; now that outdoor exercise is appreciated to be very low risk and obesity the single most important controllable risk factor for the disease, they're Heroes of the Revolution.
In the same way, received wisdom right now is that masks are essential because they catch coughs and sneezes; in another three or four months we might very well be right back to where we were in March, when they were regarded as worse than useless because they offer very limited protection, they're often not worn properly, they get filthy and people end up infecting themselves by fiddling with them, pulling them down and back up all the time and touching their faces in the process.
Or not. Evidence, evidence, more evidence is always helpful.
People touch their faces all the time. If you're going into a supermarket for a few minutes and then chucking your disposable mask in the bin as soon as you leave then it's one thing; going on a train or bus trip to town, round the shops and back again, perhaps being out and about for several hours, is an entirely different matter.
*Not* fiddling with the mask and touching your face for a long time requires a considerable amount of concentration and self-discipline. That can be expected from a surgeon in an operating theatre. Of average Joe Public going out for the afternoon, not so much. The numbers of people who end up pulling the things down to eat something, to yak on their mobile phones, or where they are out in the street between shops where they aren't obliged to use them, is legion.
I mean, I am genuinely unsure. If I were somehow magically made leader of the Lib Dems, I am not sure what I would do.
Legalise cannabis. UBI. Abolish HoL. Fully federal UK with English parliament in Hunstanton. Free broadband.
So, for the most part, become Corbyn?
He did get a lot more votes
Two of those policies are nicked from die Brexitpartie. Red wall and all that. People with writing on their clothes who drive P reg Rover 200s.
The P reg Rover 200 is a damning indictment.
I suppose moving Parliament to Hunstanton could prevent an Independent Norfolk, although I maintain it is probably already operating under an unofficial UDI. I don't believe HMRC and DVLA rules apply there anyway.
There's the added benefit that six-fingered typists can get those reports prepared more quickly....
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
Starmer has been pro union from day one and has said so on several occasions
He has but the party has not. Good to see consistent messaging.
Now to get rid of Leonard
And replace him with whom?
Of course with 40%+ of current SLab voters supporting Indy and a majority for indy ref II, you may have to replace some voters too.
Counting chickens and complacency on show
I'm just going on the available polling data and my knowledge of the talent in SLab. If you want to draw on your vast reservoir of Scotch expertise to put forward an alternative view, feel free. Who do you think should lead Scottish Labour, and how do you think they should change the minds of Labour voters inclined towards indy?
Anyone other than Leonard but the SNP are in danger of believing their own hypebole
As I posted earlier so much has changed with covid having a devastating effect on the UK economy, and Scotland's, which will have huge implications. When Scotland experiences the huge job losses and a devastated holiday and tourism business that is inevitable in just a few short months I doubt indy will be on peoples minds
'X has turned out to be crap so we must replace them with someone tbc' sums up the criteria for SLab (& increasingly SCon) choosing new leaders, so you're at least at one with a certain section of Scotpol.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
Regardless of what the Government does in situations like this it can't win. Anyone looking for an attack line will either say that it didn't act quite quickly enough or it was precipitous. Exactly the same thing would've happened if it had waited two days or two weeks before hitting Spain with the ban hammer.
Now, personally I'd rather they'd never put themselves into the situation in the first place by simply keeping the advice not to travel abroad full stop, and encourage the populace either to save its money or take its holidays here. But we are where we are, and the Spanish situation seems to me to have been handled properly.
Unless people are actually quarantined in hotels the moment they get off the plane aren’t we running the risk of what happened with visitors to Northern Italy earlier this year happening again? People travelling on public transport etc and going out even when quarantined thus potentially spreading the virus again.
Yes, but less so. Masks and social distancing will become ingrained I think. And many Italians, for example, will have some immunity.
We can`t eradicate all risk. Rather, we have to accept it and learn to live with it.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
Regardless of what the Government does in situations like this it can't win. Anyone looking for an attack line will either say that it didn't act quite quickly enough or it was precipitous. Exactly the same thing would've happened if it had waited two days or two weeks before hitting Spain with the ban hammer.
Now, personally I'd rather they'd never put themselves into the situation in the first place by simply keeping the advice not to travel abroad full stop, and encourage the populace either to save its money or take its holidays here. But we are where we are, and the Spanish situation seems to me to have been handled properly.
Unless people are actually quarantined in hotels the moment they get off the plane aren’t we running the risk of what happened with visitors to Northern Italy earlier this year happening again? People travelling on public transport etc and going out even when quarantined thus potentially spreading the virus again.
Perhaps. Hopefully the numbers infected in Spain, the numbers of holidaymakers that will get it and bring it back in turn, and the numbers who then defy the quarantine and go out anyway, will all be sufficiently low to prevent any serious problems.
If we are unlucky, however, and Spanish sunshine holidays result in a lot of emergency whac-a-mole activity, then hopefully the Government will take the lesson to heart and pull up the drawbridge.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
Outdoor raves and beach parties don't seem to become superspreader events, we've had plenty of illegal outdoors raves in the UK and it hasn't really made a difference to the overall picture. Nightclubs really do seem like the major transmission vector in a lot of the countries seeing second waves. Hopefully the government here are learning from that and keep them closed until there is a viable treatment option or a vaccine.
Yes, large indoor gatherings, especially where people are talking/shouting/singing, do seem to be the top way of spreading the virus.
Indoor night clubs are not open everywhere in Spain I’m not aware of any open in Valencia where the last I heard was you couldn’t dance and sing in a bar, it might have changed. People are still gathering in large numbers on outdoor terraces though and that requires policing to maintain distancing and ensure people remain seated.
Pubs and bars have no standing and no shouting rules here for that reason and for all the times I've been people seem to be ok sticking to them.
Most of the people I drink with couldn’t stand up for ten minutes anyway, although they can jive with no problem even when waiting knee and hip replacements.
If they didn’t know there was a risk of this happening, they’re idiots.
If they knew the risk, and went ahead anyway, well, the risk went sour. Bad luck.
If they knew the risk but thought it magically didn’t apply to them, they’re arrogant beyond the point of a Cummings or a Corbyn.
There is a reason why I have booked an October break in Wales, rather than the Med as I usually try for. And I won’t be going abroad again until the Rona is under control.
Yes, I will miss my nice sunny holidays, but I would miss two weeks’ pay much more.
It was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen, it was even discussed extensively on here when travel 'bridges' were first being considered...
Ha, there was always going to be a politician or two caught out as well.
I really don't understand the people who feel the need to go holiday in the middle of a global pandemic, and I type this from one of the places that usually empties out over the summer as hundreds of thousands of people travel to escape the heat! Very few people are leaving here this summer, and the local beach hotels are doing good offers if people want to get away for a few days. Strict immigration controls and lots of testing have allowed entertainment venues to re-open, although with reduced capacities.
With the number of cases worldwide still rising rapidly, places with a lot of travel were always going to get hit by a second wave once that travel resumed.
I don't know anyone travelling for leisure reasons at the moment, among a group of friends who are all pretty frequent flyers. I've not been on a plane since January, and usually do three or four trips a month. I'll be staying off planes until I've had a vaccine, thanks very much!
I’m taking my first flight since March (my family have been in CA for the 8 weeks) and I’m going to see them.
Heathrow is quiet but functioning well. Odd atmosphere though.
We are back yesterday from two weeks in Croatia. We have had a great time time. It was like escaping prison.
Flights were fine. 100% mask usage - and didn`t feel too uncomfortable for the length of the flight. Croatia has been much more lightly effected by Covid than Uk, of course. Comparable to Greece. Atmosphere was almost as normal - shopkeepers wear masks and most shoppers put a mask on as they enter. Common sense prevails. Gel everywhere. We didn`t see a police office anywhere.
I`ve never visited Croatia and what a cracking nation it is. The locals were unbelievably happy to welcome us. Split and Dubrovnik are, I`m told, nightmare places in normal July/August period (cruise drop offs and Game of Thrones connections) but at the moment they are at 20% tourist numbers, so it is a great opportunity to visit. We stayed a week in Split Old Town and a week on a remote island. Speedboat back to the airport! Fantastic.
My partner and I went to Barcelona last weekend for a long weekend and took as many precautions as we could. You have to enjoy life while you can. Who knows - we may all be cooped up again for months on end in the winter.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
That`s unfair. When they departed they were told - and it was written into FCO guidance - that no quarantine would apply on their return to UK. They were entitled to believe this. The change may be necessary, but it should not apply to UK subjects returning home.
If they didn’t know there was a risk of this happening, they’re idiots.
If they knew the risk, and went ahead anyway, well, the risk went sour. Bad luck.
If they knew the risk but thought it magically didn’t apply to them, they’re arrogant beyond the point of a Cummings or a Corbyn.
There is a reason why I have booked an October break in Wales, rather than the Med as I usually try for. And I won’t be going abroad again until the Rona is under control.
Yes, I will miss my nice sunny holidays, but I would miss two weeks’ pay much more.
It was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen, it was even discussed extensively on here when travel 'bridges' were first being considered...
Ha, there was always going to be a politician or two caught out as well.
I really don't understand the people who feel the need to go holiday in the middle of a global pandemic, and I type this from one of the places that usually empties out over the summer as hundreds of thousands of people travel to escape the heat! Very few people are leaving here this summer, and the local beach hotels are doing good offers if people want to get away for a few days. Strict immigration controls and lots of testing have allowed entertainment venues to re-open, although with reduced capacities.
With the number of cases worldwide still rising rapidly, places with a lot of travel were always going to get hit by a second wave once that travel resumed.
I don't know anyone travelling for leisure reasons at the moment, among a group of friends who are all pretty frequent flyers. I've not been on a plane since January, and usually do three or four trips a month. I'll be staying off planes until I've had a vaccine, thanks very much!
I’m taking my first flight since March (my family have been in CA for the 8 weeks) and I’m going to see them.
Heathrow is quiet but functioning well. Odd atmosphere though.
We are back yesterday from two weeks in Croatia. We have had a great time time. It was like escaping prison.
Flights were fine. 100% mask usage - and didn`t feel too uncomfortable for the length of the flight. Croatia has been much more lightly effected by Covid than Uk, of course. Comparable to Greece. Atmosphere was almost as normal - shopkeepers wear masks and most shoppers put a mask on as they enter. Common sense prevails. Gel everywhere. We didn`t see a police office anywhere.
I`ve never visited Croatia and what a cracking nation it is. The locals were unbelievably happy to welcome us. Split and Dubrovnik are, I`m told, nightmare places in normal July/August period (cruise drop offs and Game of Thrones connections) but at the moment they are at 20% tourist numbers, so it is a great opportunity to visit. We stayed a week in Split Old Town and a week on a remote island. Speedboat back to the airport! Fantastic.
My partner and I went to Barcelona last weekend for a long weekend and took as many precautions as we could. You have to enjoy life while you can. Who knows - we may all be cooped up again for months on end in the winter.
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
Regardless of what the Government does in situations like this it can't win. Anyone looking for an attack line will either say that it didn't act quite quickly enough or it was precipitous. Exactly the same thing would've happened if it had waited two days or two weeks before hitting Spain with the ban hammer.
Now, personally I'd rather they'd never put themselves into the situation in the first place by simply keeping the advice not to travel abroad full stop, and encourage the populace either to save its money or take its holidays here. But we are where we are, and the Spanish situation seems to me to have been handled properly.
Unless people are actually quarantined in hotels the moment they get off the plane aren’t we running the risk of what happened with visitors to Northern Italy earlier this year happening again? People travelling on public transport etc and going out even when quarantined thus potentially spreading the virus again.
Perhaps. Hopefully the numbers infected in Spain, the numbers of holidaymakers that will get it and bring it back in turn, and the numbers who then defy the quarantine and go out anyway, will all be sufficiently low to prevent any serious problems.
If we are unlucky, however, and Spanish sunshine holidays result in a lot of emergency whac-a-mole activity, then hopefully the Government will take the lesson to heart and pull up the drawbridge.
Quarantine was the right policy. I don't agree with lifting it as encouraged by all the media and holiday companies whinging about the effects on holidays. If you don't want to quarantine then don't travel. We are an island. New Zealand still hasn't lifted it's quarantine requirements.
***** Betting Post ***** Despite all the negativity currently emanating from both the British and European negotiating teams as regards a trade deal being agreed and signed up by 31 Dec. 2020, the one betting market (Smarkets) offering such a market appears surprisingly confident that just such a deal can and will be done within this timescale. The latest traded prices being: Yes ..... 1.69 (59.17%) No....... 2.20 (45.45%)
Am I missing something here on what looks like a good bet on no deal?
As ever, DYOR.
Gosh that's interesting but imo for quite the opposite reason. As I've posted many times my very strong view is that "No Deal" - "WTO" - is a non-starter on every level and so some sort of Deal is a virtual certainty.
1.69 is therefore unbelievable value. Tempted to open an account with Smarkets just to do it.
Don't let me stop you!
lol
Plus I will make a SPECIAL OFFER (!) here that is much better than Smarkets for people who disagree with me and think No Deal is likely.
I will lay No Deal Brexit 31/12/20 at odds of 2/1 against - c.f. their 6/5.
Limit £25 per person. £100 aggregate (hence accommodating 4 clients).
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
Regardless of what the Government does in situations like this it can't win. Anyone looking for an attack line will either say that it didn't act quite quickly enough or it was precipitous. Exactly the same thing would've happened if it had waited two days or two weeks before hitting Spain with the ban hammer.
Now, personally I'd rather they'd never put themselves into the situation in the first place by simply keeping the advice not to travel abroad full stop, and encourage the populace either to save its money or take its holidays here. But we are where we are, and the Spanish situation seems to me to have been handled properly.
Unless people are actually quarantined in hotels the moment they get off the plane aren’t we running the risk of what happened with visitors to Northern Italy earlier this year happening again? People travelling on public transport etc and going out even when quarantined thus potentially spreading the virus again.
Well yes. And isn't there an economic problem with airport hotels being empty and nearby restaurants with no business? Msybe I have missed summat.
Man City v Norwich: you can get 70/1 on a 0-0 draw. That`s astonishing. While I don`t believe the match will end 0-0, the odds on that outcome are way too high. I`d price it at around 20/1. I`ve had a few quid on.
That is ludicrous. Even 75 looks possible going by the weight of money on either side. I'm doing it too (with my usual in-running laybacks in place).
If they didn’t know there was a risk of this happening, they’re idiots.
If they knew the risk, and went ahead anyway, well, the risk went sour. Bad luck.
If they knew the risk but thought it magically didn’t apply to them, they’re arrogant beyond the point of a Cummings or a Corbyn.
There is a reason why I have booked an October break in Wales, rather than the Med as I usually try for. And I won’t be going abroad again until the Rona is under control.
Yes, I will miss my nice sunny holidays, but I would miss two weeks’ pay much more.
It was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen, it was even discussed extensively on here when travel 'bridges' were first being considered...
Ha, there was always going to be a politician or two caught out as well.
I really don't understand the people who feel the need to go holiday in the middle of a global pandemic, and I type this from one of the places that usually empties out over the summer as hundreds of thousands of people travel to escape the heat! Very few people are leaving here this summer, and the local beach hotels are doing good offers if people want to get away for a few days. Strict immigration controls and lots of testing have allowed entertainment venues to re-open, although with reduced capacities.
With the number of cases worldwide still rising rapidly, places with a lot of travel were always going to get hit by a second wave once that travel resumed.
I don't know anyone travelling for leisure reasons at the moment, among a group of friends who are all pretty frequent flyers. I've not been on a plane since January, and usually do three or four trips a month. I'll be staying off planes until I've had a vaccine, thanks very much!
I’m taking my first flight since March (my family have been in CA for the 8 weeks) and I’m going to see them.
Heathrow is quiet but functioning well. Odd atmosphere though.
We are back yesterday from two weeks in Croatia. We have had a great time time. It was like escaping prison.
Flights were fine. 100% mask usage - and didn`t feel too uncomfortable for the length of the flight. Croatia has been much more lightly effected by Covid than Uk, of course. Comparable to Greece. Atmosphere was almost as normal - shopkeepers wear masks and most shoppers put a mask on as they enter. Common sense prevails. Gel everywhere. We didn`t see a police office anywhere.
I`ve never visited Croatia and what a cracking nation it is. The locals were unbelievably happy to welcome us. Split and Dubrovnik are, I`m told, nightmare places in normal July/August period (cruise drop offs and Game of Thrones connections) but at the moment they are at 20% tourist numbers, so it is a great opportunity to visit. We stayed a week in Split Old Town and a week on a remote island. Speedboat back to the airport! Fantastic.
My partner and I went to Barcelona last weekend for a long weekend and took as many precautions as we could. You have to enjoy life while you can. Who knows - we may all be cooped up again for months on end in the winter.
But the more people fly abroad, the more likely it is that we will be cooped up next winter! There are plenty of ways of enjoying yourself on a long weekend that don't raise the risk of another lockdown.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
That`s unfair. When they departed they were told - and it was written into FCO guidance - that no quarantine would apply on their return to UK. They were entitled to believe this. The change may be necessary, but it should not apply to UK subjects returning home.
Wasn't it always said that it was subject to change?
Well it's changed. Hence my analogy, if you have a pocket pair you're winning heads up versus any non pair but it's entirely plausible to see something come up. Something has.
Starmer has been pro union from day one and has said so on several occasions
He has but the party has not. Good to see consistent messaging.
Now to get rid of Leonard
And replace him with whom?
Of course with 40%+ of current SLab voters supporting Indy and a majority for indy ref II, you may have to replace some voters too.
Somebody who is pro-Union and Scottish would be a good start.
Supporting Indy for Labour is a terrible idea. Even if they win no Scottish seats, England seats want to here pro-Union.
Do they? I really think most English people don't care and were it known that prescriptions and Universities are free in Scotland would see the Scots as ungrateful (yes I know they pay different rates of tax but that fact wouldn't be one anyone would mention because Details)
Very good from Raab this morning. For once the government is in a good position and the criticisms look stupid and opportunistic.
This is showing the shallowness and hypocrisy of our broadcast media
Raab very good on Sophy
He is telling porkies I e been pointing out that infection rates in Spain have been on rise for a week the Friday figures were lower than Thursday but he claims that it was Friday that made their minds up. Why didn’t They do it on Thursday?
I doubt HMG has been reading your posts and it is clear from Professor Van Tam that HMG acted immediately on their advice yesterday
If I can see the data so can he, they didn’t want to eclipse Johnson’s first anniversary bollocks. In six weeks time Spain will be imposing quarantine on visitors from the UK as they find themselves in the same situation.
Utter nonsense though I expect Spain will see most of Europe following UK
You will see rises across Europe, what makes you think the UK will avoid a similar increase as lockdown unwinds.
Nightclubs aren't open. That seems to be the common link among countries that have seen the start of a second wave.
As if those places were not dreadful enough.
I'm too old to go clubbing these days, and was hardly Ravy Davy Gravy when younger, but I really feel for younger people that these are still closed. Scene of some of the best times, back in the day. Probably my biggest regret is not going out more when I was younger.
They will look for alternative outlets from gathering in large numbers on the beach or illegal raves. A quiet pint and a pizza apparently isn’t enough
A quiet pint and a pizza is most definitely not enough! My only complaint is people not tidying up after themselves. But the need for a bit of hedonism, excess, music, socialising, pulling, dancing and mind-altering states is I think fairly hard to suppress. I wouldn't mind a bit of it myself (except the pulling, obvs).
Indeed, absolutely don't begrudge young people having nights out. I miss them too tbf, though maybe not enough to go to an illegal outdoor rave!
I reckon I am actually quite up for an illegal rave right now.
So am I. I said the same thing to my wife a few days ago. FFS we need to get some hedonism back into our fucking awful UK lives.
Wont be a rave, by any manner of means, (those days are long gone!) but Mrs C and I are going out to lunch today at a rather nice vineyard where the tables are among the vines.
Starmer has been pro union from day one and has said so on several occasions
He has but the party has not. Good to see consistent messaging.
Now to get rid of Leonard
And replace him with whom?
Of course with 40%+ of current SLab voters supporting Indy and a majority for indy ref II, you may have to replace some voters too.
Somebody who is pro-Union and Scottish would be a good start.
Supporting Indy for Labour is a terrible idea. Even if they win no Scottish seats, England seats want to here pro-Union.
Do they? I really think most English people don't care and were it known that prescriptions and Universities are free in Scotland would see the Scots as ungrateful (yes I know they pay different rates of tax but that fact wouldn't be one anyone would mention because Details)
What did for Ed M was the idea he'd be pushed around by Sturgeon (besides his poor leadership).
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
That`s unfair. When they departed they were told - and it was written into FCO guidance - that no quarantine would apply on their return to UK. They were entitled to believe this. The change may be necessary, but it should not apply to UK subjects returning home.
Wrong - the change is necessary and it is bad luck if you get caught up in it. Going abroad this summer was always a calculated risk. Risks sometimes do not pay off and you have to suck it up.
Man City v Norwich: you can get 70/1 on a 0-0 draw. That`s astonishing. While I don`t believe the match will end 0-0, the odds on that outcome are way too high. I`d price it at around 20/1. I`ve had a few quid on.
That is ludicrous. Even 75 looks possible going by the weight of money on either side. I'm doing it too (with my usual in-running laybacks in place).
I disagree and am confused why the price would be 20/1.
There have been 36 prior Man City games this season and none of them were goalless.
There were 37 Man City games last season and their only goalless draw was away at Anfield.
So that's 1 of the past 73 games involving Man City being goalless ... and Norwich are not Liverpool at Anfield!
The Daily Mail would have dug it up if anything was controversial.
They have his key involvement in the Carl Beech affair and also, of course, he was a key Brexit-blocker last year. (He`s doing the same thing again - he has the government over a barrel again. This time over school reopenings.)
But frankly yes, I think the only way Labour has of narrowing that gap further is showing the party has really changed and that means kicking out the Corbynite faction. If sufficient grounds to do that are found in the EHRC report, then Starmer must do it.
The Daily Mail would have dug it up if anything was controversial.
They have his key involvement in the Carl Beech affair and also, of course, he was a key Brexit-blocker last year. (He`s doing the same thing again - he has the government over a barrel again. This time over school reopenings.)
I'm not sure Brexit blocker really is very effective now and will be seen as even less so as time goes on.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
That`s unfair. When they departed they were told - and it was written into FCO guidance - that no quarantine would apply on their return to UK. They were entitled to believe this. The change may be necessary, but it should not apply to UK subjects returning home.
They would also have seen if they had bothered to look that things could change at any time..
Given that even my wife said this morning that "surely it was clear things are subject to change" I don't think they have a valid argument.
That's why they are falling back on saying he's boring - it's a placeholder attack for those who are not hugely charismatic (not that he's that dull) until something else comes up.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
That`s unfair. When they departed they were told - and it was written into FCO guidance - that no quarantine would apply on their return to UK. They were entitled to believe this. The change may be necessary, but it should not apply to UK subjects returning home.
They would also have seen if they had bothered to look that things could change at any time..
Given that even my wife said this morning that "surely it was clear things are subject to change" I don't think they have a valid argument.
Quite. It's bad luck, but the circumstances changed and that is that. Some kind of procedural fairness argument that the rules or advice have changed between people setting off and coming back must taken second place to public health concerns, particularly when it is impossible to escape news on coronavirus and that cases have been increasing in many places amid fears of second waves.
I do feel that the Government could consider tweaking the advice on self-isolation/quarantine a bit though. The requirement to stay within your home except for emergencies seems particularly draconian, and designed to encourage non compliance.
Yes a draconian restriction without enforcement is the worst of all possible worlds. Just like virtually everything this government (with opposition support) has implemented since March.
I don't see how draconian rule without enforcement is worse than, say, rules not draconian enough. Even for something far from draconian it is simply impossible to enforce without voluntary compliance. Heck, that's the case for most normal laws as well. Very tough rules as guidance works for most, making gets you a few more, and those that are left would ignore it whether it is enforced or not.
The point I was making is that it is better for maintaining public support. If people think they are being treated unnecessarily harshly then this will cause resentment. I feel as if the current rules for self isolation were designed for a different stage of the outbreak and made more sense then on a “risk based” assessment compared to other activities that are seen as perfectly OK. To prevent somebody walking the dog, whilst simultaneously saying that the rules don’t apply to people you live with (with all the associated things they can NOW do) just don’t sit right.
He will only cement his place if he withdraws the whip from Corbyn and all his fellow travellers post ECHR
Labour will then be a credible force
He is unlikely to do that because it would create far too much division and uproar within CLPs. The Tories are not well placed to exploit this given their own problems re-Islamophobia. Moreover, how many Tory MPs lost the Whip under Heath and Thatcher for supporting the Smith regime in Rhodesia - or openly expressing sympathy for Apartheid South Africa? Beyond that, I am not aware that party members were expelled for wearing 'Hang Nelson Mandela' T-shirts - a policy advocated by then Tory MP Terry Dicks.
I assume after todays action on Spain and reports covid is reaching new highs of infection across the world most people will decide to take the safer option and remain in the UK this year and maybe even next year
This is a betting site and discussions about the prospects for 2024 election are understandable but nobody can have any idea of the outcome as all parties face the fallout of covid 19 and the upsetting of traditional ideas and ways of working
To be fair even I do not know who I will be voting for in 2024
Nothing is going to be the same again and it is how everyone adapts to the change coming and the consequences that will not only shape political parties but the policies and even the viability of those policies
A very reasonable comment. Though it does seem to slightly contradict your earlier comment that Labour can only become a "credible force" if Corbyn is expelled; as you recognise, there are bigger things at play.
I suspect there won't be enough evidence to expel Corbyn in the EHRC report, and that it won't matter. Many Corbyn fans have already left the party, and those who are still in the party have gone off him. He will be irrelevant by 2024, even if he is still a backbench MP.
If Corbyn could stay in a Blair led party, and Blair allow him to keep the whp, why can't Starmer?
It is obvious to all (not least the Corbynite antisemites) that there has been regime change. Better not to have a purge of individuals, so much as a purge of antisemitic attitudes.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Man City v Norwich: you can get 70/1 on a 0-0 draw. That`s astonishing. While I don`t believe the match will end 0-0, the odds on that outcome are way too high. I`d price it at around 20/1. I`ve had a few quid on.
That is ludicrous. Even 75 looks possible going by the weight of money on either side. I'm doing it too (with my usual in-running laybacks in place).
I disagree and am confused why the price would be 20/1.
There have been 36 prior Man City games this season and none of them were goalless.
There were 37 Man City games last season and their only goalless draw was away at Anfield.
So that's 1 of the past 73 games involving Man City being goalless ... and Norwich are not Liverpool at Anfield!
I'll eat my hat if it's 0-0
Almost certainly won't end up nil nil. But there's an interesting time profile for in-running layback if you get on at something massive like say 75. It's a tried & tested money maker for me.
That's why they are falling back on saying he's boring - it's a placeholder attack for those who are not hugely charismatic (not that he's that dull) until something else comes up.
In discussion with a ne-ish acquaintance, a Labour voter from way back about politics who has just emailed, referring to Corbyn. 'He is a man of real principles. He survived the mass attack by the media until a combination of anti-Semitism scaremongering and the fifth column in his own admin, which diverted funds from needful marginals to right-wing safe seats, and sat on complaints of anti-Semitism, which Corbyn had told them to investigate, lost him two elections and eventually brought him down. It seems probable that he would have won enough seats to be able to form a government in 2017 but for sabotage by this fifth column, which Starmer has just rewarded to the tune of £8 million out of members' subscriptions.'
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Yes. And there is a not a perfect similarity between somebody booking a family holiday and playing Texas Hold Em.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
What the Spanish holiday makers need is rapid testing on arrival. Otherwise we are saying to these passengers: lock yourself away; possibly lose your job; oh, but don't worry about infecting hundreds of people on the train from the airport to home.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Indeed, I didn't say no sympathy. I have some sympathy but its very limited - they took a gamble, they didn't win. That's a shame. Hope they've had a good holiday and enjoy their quarantine as best as they can.
Report today that Boris is to hold regular cabinet meetings in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and has already obtained cabinet rooms in Edinburgh
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Yes. And there is a not a perfect similarity between somebody booking a family holiday and playing Texas Hold Em.
No analogy is perfect but both are entirely optional leisure activities that cost money and were known this year to be a gamble.
Report today that Boris is to hold regular cabinet meetings in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and has already obtained cabinet rooms in Edinburgh
Is he going to invite along the leaders of the devolved administrations?
Report today that Boris is to hold regular cabinet meetings in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and has already obtained cabinet rooms in Edinburgh
Will he wear a kilt for the Scottish ones, I wonder?
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Indeed, I didn't say no sympathy. I have some sympathy but its very limited - they took a gamble, they didn't win. That's a shame. Hope they've had a good holiday and enjoy their quarantine as best as they can.
The "quarantine" is not policed, though, am I right?
Report today that Boris is to hold regular cabinet meetings in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and has already obtained cabinet rooms in Edinburgh
Is he going to invite along the leaders of the devolved administrations?
He has the Secretaries of State of each devolved nation in his cabinet
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Indeed, I didn't say no sympathy. I have some sympathy but its very limited - they took a gamble, they didn't win. That's a shame. Hope they've had a good holiday and enjoy their quarantine as best as they can.
The "quarantine" is not policed, though, am I right?
What is it with certain types of governments that almost the first thing they do when they get into power is to attack women’s rights?
Are you watching Mrs America?
No. It’s on my list. I watch very little TV. I never seem to have the time.
Ok, well it's probably not brilliant enough to crash into limited bandwidth but it's an entertaining watch about the fight for equal rights for women in America in the early 70s. Not so long ago in the grand scheme of things.
Report today that Boris is to hold regular cabinet meetings in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and has already obtained cabinet rooms in Edinburgh
Well thats an efficient use of taxpayers money, not to mention an efficient way to maximise covid spread! I thought we were supposed to be limiting travel?
Starmer has been pro union from day one and has said so on several occasions
He has but the party has not. Good to see consistent messaging.
Now to get rid of Leonard
And replace him with whom?
Of course with 40%+ of current SLab voters supporting Indy and a majority for indy ref II, you may have to replace some voters too.
Somebody who is pro-Union and Scottish would be a good start.
Supporting Indy for Labour is a terrible idea. Even if they win no Scottish seats, England seats want to here pro-Union.
Do they? I really think most English people don't care and were it known that prescriptions and Universities are free in Scotland would see the Scots as ungrateful (yes I know they pay different rates of tax but that fact wouldn't be one anyone would mention because Details)
I think it's more nuanced than that. Anyone who considers themselves 'British not English/More British than English' and lives in Remainerland (i.e. London, Norwich, Bristol etc...) is likely going to be very pro-union, and probably doesn't mind Barnett. On the other hand, if you go to the Red Wall I think you'll find a lot more ambivalence about the union. I very much support the union, but I have to admit I think there's certainly space in UK politics for a economically left leaning, but culturally right wing pro-English independence party. Wouldn't surprise if that's the next bandwagon Farage tries to jump on.
Report today that Boris is to hold regular cabinet meetings in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and has already obtained cabinet rooms in Edinburgh
Is he going to invite along the leaders of the devolved administrations?
He has the Secretaries of State of each devolved nation in his cabinet
Apologies I was just trying to find a purpose for doing so that extended beyond gesture politics. I suppose it could be used as an opportunity for high level ministerial meetings outside of Cabinet. But then the U.K. government doesn’t usually like implying “equivalence”.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Indeed, I didn't say no sympathy. I have some sympathy but its very limited - they took a gamble, they didn't win. That's a shame. Hope they've had a good holiday and enjoy their quarantine as best as they can.
The "quarantine" is not policed, though, am I right?
I think one of the Left's biggest mistakes in recent years has been their move in an authoritarian, bossy, prissy and lecturing direction, in which there is only one correct opinion on every subject. It's the opposite of the attitude a lot of them used to take back in the 60s and 70s with for example the hippy movement, which had a much more relaxed attitude to life in general.
Starmer has been pro union from day one and has said so on several occasions
He has but the party has not. Good to see consistent messaging.
Now to get rid of Leonard
And replace him with whom?
Of course with 40%+ of current SLab voters supporting Indy and a majority for indy ref II, you may have to replace some voters too.
Counting chickens and complacency on show
I'm just going on the available polling data and my knowledge of the talent in SLab. If you want to draw on your vast reservoir of Scotch expertise to put forward an alternative view, feel free. Who do you think should lead Scottish Labour, and how do you think they should change the minds of Labour voters inclined towards indy?
Anyone other than Leonard but the SNP are in danger of believing their own hypebole
As I posted earlier so much has changed with covid having a devastating effect on the UK economy, and Scotland's, which will have huge implications. When Scotland experiences the huge job losses and a devastated holiday and tourism business that is inevitable in just a few short months I doubt indy will be on peoples minds
'X has turned out to be crap so we must replace them with someone tbc' sums up the criteria for SLab (& increasingly SCon) choosing new leaders, so you're at least at one with a certain section of Scotpol.
For anyone who has gone to Spain (or booked) and is now upset that they have to quarantine or speak to their insurance company I have about as much sympathy as I do a Texas Hold Em player who shoves all in on a pair of fives, gets called and a higher card comes down so they lose.
I try to have sympathy for people in bad situations even if they're party to blame.
Indeed, I didn't say no sympathy. I have some sympathy but its very limited - they took a gamble, they didn't win. That's a shame. Hope they've had a good holiday and enjoy their quarantine as best as they can.
The "quarantine" is not policed, though, am I right?
Why does it need to be?
We don't live in an authoritarian Police State.
I'm not arguing about whether it should be or not. Just clarifying that my understanding was correct. Not following all the detail so much these days.
Ok, so essentially voluntary. Therefore you can have your holiday and come back and carry on as normal - and many will no doubt do this.
He will only cement his place if he withdraws the whip from Corbyn and all his fellow travellers post ECHR
Labour will then be a credible force
He is unlikely to do that because it would create far too much division and uproar within CLPs. The Tories are not well placed to exploit this given their own problems re-Islamophobia. Moreover, how many Tory MPs lost the Whip under Heath and Thatcher for supporting the Smith regime in Rhodesia - or openly expressing sympathy for Apartheid South Africa? Beyond that, I am not aware that party members were expelled for wearing 'Hang Nelson Mandela' T-shirts - a policy advocated by then Tory MP Terry Dicks.
Partially agree there.
Mt Starmer will need the EHCR to create momentum in that direction first.
Report today that Boris is to hold regular cabinet meetings in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and has already obtained cabinet rooms in Edinburgh
Well thats an efficient use of taxpayers money, not to mention an efficient way to maximise covid spread! I thought we were supposed to be limiting travel?
And why should the UK government avoid meeting in the devolved nations.
It seems sensible and I would expect a Starmer government to follow the practice
And as far as I am aware there are no internal UK travel restrictions
Starmer has been pro union from day one and has said so on several occasions
He has but the party has not. Good to see consistent messaging.
Now to get rid of Leonard
And replace him with whom?
Of course with 40%+ of current SLab voters supporting Indy and a majority for indy ref II, you may have to replace some voters too.
Counting chickens and complacency on show
I'm just going on the available polling data and my knowledge of the talent in SLab. If you want to draw on your vast reservoir of Scotch expertise to put forward an alternative view, feel free. Who do you think should lead Scottish Labour, and how do you think they should change the minds of Labour voters inclined towards indy?
Anyone other than Leonard but the SNP are in danger of believing their own hypebole
As I posted earlier so much has changed with covid having a devastating effect on the UK economy, and Scotland's, which will have huge implications. When Scotland experiences the huge job losses and a devastated holiday and tourism business that is inevitable in just a few short months I doubt indy will be on peoples minds
I rather agree with that. The fact that voters may be Pro or Anti-Independence does not necessarily make it the most salient issue for most people. I suspect that the majority are utterly fed up with the seemingly endless focus on constitutional issues and will be happy to move on as more immediate problems reveal themselves. I suspect that the commentariat is somewhat unrepresentative on this.
Comments
I suspect there won't be enough evidence to expel Corbyn in the EHRC report, and that it won't matter. Many Corbyn fans have already left the party, and those who are still in the party have gone off him. He will be irrelevant by 2024, even if he is still a backbench MP.
Heathrow is quiet but functioning well. Odd atmosphere though.
As I posted earlier so much has changed with covid having a devastating effect on the UK economy, and Scotland's, which will have huge implications. When Scotland experiences the huge job losses and a devastated holiday and tourism business that is inevitable in just a few short months I doubt indy will be on peoples minds
I feel a bit sorry for Shapps and family who will no doubt have paparazzi camped outside for two weeks looking for slightest evidence of rule breaking.
Obviously doesn’t help people wanting to work - will be interesting to see if it causes problems for NHS resourcing.
If the penny dropped at PHE only yesterday, their advice to HMG is as poor as many on here have earlier claimed.
Colour me skeptical.
Flights were fine. 100% mask usage - and didn`t feel too uncomfortable for the length of the flight. Croatia has been much more lightly effected by Covid than Uk, of course. Comparable to Greece. Atmosphere was almost as normal - shopkeepers wear masks and most shoppers put a mask on as they enter. Common sense prevails. Gel everywhere. We didn`t see a police office anywhere.
I`ve never visited Croatia and what a cracking nation it is. The locals were unbelievably happy to welcome us. Split and Dubrovnik are, I`m told, nightmare places in normal July/August period (cruise drop offs and Game of Thrones connections) but at the moment they are at 20% tourist numbers, so it is a great opportunity to visit. We stayed a week in Split Old Town and a week on a remote island. Speedboat back to the airport! Fantastic.
That grouping - between $50k and $100k in income - is Trump's core.
I don't know enough about American median incomes by State to extrapolate that but some research would be helpful as to determine where this key income demographic is located and some sense of numbers.
He said it was a "key constituency for the SNP to secure a pro-independence majority in next year's Scottish parliamentary elections."
This isn't strictly accurate. Other things being equal, if the Tories lost Edinburgh Central, they would be compensated by a seat on the list, at the expense of the Greens, so not impacting the "pro-independence majority" at all.
People touch their faces all the time. If you're going into a supermarket for a few minutes and then chucking your disposable mask in the bin as soon as you leave then it's one thing; going on a train or bus trip to town, round the shops and back again, perhaps being out and about for several hours, is an entirely different matter.
*Not* fiddling with the mask and touching your face for a long time requires a considerable amount of concentration and self-discipline. That can be expected from a surgeon in an operating theatre. Of average Joe Public going out for the afternoon, not so much. The numbers of people who end up pulling the things down to eat something, to yak on their mobile phones, or where they are out in the street between shops where they aren't obliged to use them, is legion.
We can`t eradicate all risk. Rather, we have to accept it and learn to live with it.
If we are unlucky, however, and Spanish sunshine holidays result in a lot of emergency whac-a-mole activity, then hopefully the Government will take the lesson to heart and pull up the drawbridge.
https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/1287304492715855873?s=20
Plus I will make a SPECIAL OFFER (!) here that is much better than Smarkets for people who disagree with me and think No Deal is likely.
I will lay No Deal Brexit 31/12/20 at odds of 2/1 against - c.f. their 6/5.
Limit £25 per person. £100 aggregate (hence accommodating 4 clients).
Charity or Personal.
Offer open until midnight tonight.
Tag me in reply and I will check back later.
And isn't there an economic problem with airport hotels being empty and nearby restaurants with no business?
Msybe I have missed summat.
Well it's changed. Hence my analogy, if you have a pocket pair you're winning heads up versus any non pair but it's entirely plausible to see something come up. Something has.
Supporting Indy for Labour is a terrible idea. Even if they win no Scottish seats, England seats want to here pro-Union.
Personally I think he's already been told he's losing the Whip.
The Daily Mail would have dug it up if anything was controversial.
There have been 36 prior Man City games this season and none of them were goalless.
There were 37 Man City games last season and their only goalless draw was away at Anfield.
So that's 1 of the past 73 games involving Man City being goalless ... and Norwich are not Liverpool at Anfield!
I'll eat my hat if it's 0-0
Maybe not Ian Murray level zoomer mind..
Given that even my wife said this morning that "surely it was clear things are subject to change" I don't think they have a valid argument.
https://twitter.com/marisajbate/status/1287302934619987968?s=21
What is it with certain types of governments that almost the first thing they do when they get into power is to attack women’s rights?
It is obvious to all (not least the Corbynite antisemites) that there has been regime change. Better not to have a purge of individuals, so much as a purge of antisemitic attitudes.
'He is a man of real principles. He survived the mass attack by the media until a combination of anti-Semitism scaremongering and the fifth column in his own admin, which diverted funds from needful marginals to right-wing safe seats, and sat on complaints of anti-Semitism, which Corbyn had told them to investigate, lost him two elections and eventually brought him down. It seems probable that he would have won enough seats to be able to form a government in 2017 but for sabotage by this fifth column, which Starmer has just rewarded to the tune of £8 million out of members' subscriptions.'
I must admit to some surprise.
ETA @Cyclefree said it earlier and better.
I'm assuming here no dropdead direct evidence of personal antisemitism against him in the Report. Since if there is, there is no debate.
We don't live in an authoritarian Police State.
I very much support the union, but I have to admit I think there's certainly space in UK politics for a economically left leaning, but culturally right wing pro-English independence party. Wouldn't surprise if that's the next bandwagon Farage tries to jump on.
Ok, so essentially voluntary. Therefore you can have your holiday and come back and carry on as normal - and many will no doubt do this.
Mt Starmer will need the EHCR to create momentum in that direction first.
It seems sensible and I would expect a Starmer government to follow the practice
And as far as I am aware there are no internal UK travel restrictions