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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Your regular reminder that you should always look at the full

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 26 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Your regular reminder that you should always look at the full tables rather than just the tweets that go viral

Woke-ism is a minority supportSupport for footballers "taking the knee"? 37%Support for removal of statues linked to slavery? 27%BLM protests shd have gone ahead during crisis? 21%Support protestors damaging/removing statues? 13%YouGov July 16

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Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 4,087
    edited July 26
    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,105
    MattW said:

    First.

    I demand a judge led inquiry.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    I demand a judge led inquiry.
    Judges are enemies of the people, don’t you know?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 82,942
    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,105
    edited July 26

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    I demand a judge led inquiry.
    Judges are enemies of the people, don’t you know?
    I admit I’m not totally Eady about all their verdicts.
  • https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/25/boris-johnson-rishi-sunak-shake-treasury-silicon-valley-approach/

    Also Matthew Goodwin is an embarrassment on Twitter. He posts with an agenda but pretends it is academic
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.



  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,454
    Go woke, go broke.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,538
    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 17,637
    For example when OGH puts out tweets based on unweighted subsamples.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,454
    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He's not pushing a conservative agenda, he's doing his best to educate the left on why they keep losing elections.
  • EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He claims to post academic stuff but he's just got an agenda as many other posters do.

    That's not to say some of his suggestions aren't correct, he's done some good videos on where the Labour vote went.

    Unfortunately his solution is for Labour to out-culture the Tories which most people know is impossible and so I get the sense it's a suggestion made in bad faith. It also completely neglects the fact that Blair won three elections being fairly "woke"/liberal for the time.

    I think it's far more about messaging and picking the battles, than just culture culture culture
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,106
    LadyG said:

    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
    They still need to do some work on their silky smooth assassinations of traitors, mind.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 74,050
    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    Macron is a liberal, Le Pen is the leading French nationalist
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 82,942
    edited July 26
    Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He's not pushing a conservative agenda, he's doing his best to educate the left on why they keep losing elections.
    So that's why he was forced to eat pages from his book?

  • TimTTimT Posts: 935
    @ OGH As my financial accounting prof at business school had us all chant 10 times at the beginning of each class - where's the cash, read the notes.

    It worked, I still remember ...
  • Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He's not pushing a conservative agenda, he's doing his best to educate the left on why they keep losing elections.
    Not sure to be honest.

    He suggested Labour out-culture the Tories.

    Blair was far more astute, he said don't have the battles.

    I think Blair has a lot more to say about why Labour keeps losing than Goodwin does.
  • There's nothing wrong with Goodwin pushing an agenda, he can do what he likes.

    I just fear people on the right can't see it because he supports their views, he just "seems" to be a leftie
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,538
    Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He's not pushing a conservative agenda, he's doing his best to educate the left on why they keep losing elections.
    I don't think Corbyn, far from a middle class Eurofederalist, is part of his macro-narrative.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923

    LadyG said:

    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
    They still need to do some work on their silky smooth assassinations of traitors, mind.
    I was having this same debate with a friend linked to British intelligence.

    His theory is that the Russians and Chinese are working as a tag team. The Chinese are doing the massive industrial espionage, stealing western secrets, because they have the money and scale; the Russians are doing the social media sabotage, destroying western self confidence, and roiling our politics, because they are good at THAT, as they know the cultural faultlines to attack.

    Perhaps they should both subcontract the assassinations to North Korea.
  • My view is that if woke Labour can poll 32% and 40% with less economic radicalism, there's no reason why better messaging + competence can't poll 43% as Blair achieved.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 15,267
    Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He's not pushing a conservative agenda, he's doing his best to educate the left on why they keep losing elections.
    I love this quantum state we exist in where the Left are useless wasters who perpetually lose elections and should be roundly mocked for this yet simultaneously an all powerful mob who completely control society from top to bottom with their mighty Cancel Culture which the Centre and Right cower in fear from.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,809
    I don't know if you have read The Spy Who Came In From The Cold but it has a brilliant double bluff by MI6 to protect an Asset in East Germany. Applied here by the Russians it would mean that Carole is their Asset. No doubt the Security Services - no fools and having inspired Le Carre's book - are working on that assumption. But perhaps more likely, given advances in deviousness since 1963 and what we know of Putin's convoluted mind, is that it's a TRIPLE bluff and the Russian Asset is indeed Muscles Johnson. In which case, hats off to Vlad, that would be some truly world-beating spookery.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    Now they are coming for our ecosystems

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 17,637
    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,546
    On footballers, it will interesting to see what happens in the Champions League and Europa League. Keir Radnedge made the point in World Soccer magazine that ordinarily political messaging is not tolerated by the football authorities. The poppy shirts are quite controversial and Ireland got into trouble for marking the centenary of the Easter Rising on their shirts.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 5,809
    Knives out for Catalonia

    The president of the Diputación and Tourism Costa del Sol, Francisco Salado, has considered "unfair" and "a hard blow" the quarantine imposed by the United Kingdom on tourists traveling from Spain. Salado has said that searches and bookings for British tourists have been improving and growing a lot in recent weeks and this new quarantine returns them to the "exit box". "The data and figures on the evolution of the disease in Malaga, Andalusia and many other territories in our country are reasonably good and better than in the United Kingdom itself," he emphasized. For the sector, it is "a tremendous injustice" that all pay for "the lousy health and pandemic prevention management of an autonomous autonomous government that has not done its homework," whose officials "spend the day talking about self-determination and self-government. but then they are not able to manage their competences or work to stop the spread of the disease. "
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923

    There's nothing wrong with Goodwin pushing an agenda, he can do what he likes.

    I just fear people on the right can't see it because he supports their views, he just "seems" to be a leftie

    it is quite clear to me that Goodwin is on the right, just as, say, Jolyon Maugham is a fox bashing Remainer, and Caitlin Moran is a feminist lefty.

    Despite their obvious bias, they all say interesting and observant things, from time to time.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 935
    nichomar said:

    Knives out for Catalonia

    The president of the Diputación and Tourism Costa del Sol, Francisco Salado, has considered "unfair" and "a hard blow" the quarantine imposed by the United Kingdom on tourists traveling from Spain. Salado has said that searches and bookings for British tourists have been improving and growing a lot in recent weeks and this new quarantine returns them to the "exit box". "The data and figures on the evolution of the disease in Malaga, Andalusia and many other territories in our country are reasonably good and better than in the United Kingdom itself," he emphasized. For the sector, it is "a tremendous injustice" that all pay for "the lousy health and pandemic prevention management of an autonomous autonomous government that has not done its homework," whose officials "spend the day talking about self-determination and self-government. but then they are not able to manage their competences or work to stop the spread of the disease. "

    Spurious argument to make that regions of Spain are better than the UK as a whole. I am sure there are regions of the UK that are as good as the best regions in Spain - parts of Devon spring to mind.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,106
    kinabalu said:

    I don't know if you have read The Spy Who Came In From The Cold but it has a brilliant double bluff by MI6 to protect an Asset in East Germany. Applied here by the Russians it would mean that Carole is their Asset. No doubt the Security Services - no fools and having inspired Le Carre's book - are working on that assumption. But perhaps more likely, given advances in deviousness since 1963 and what we know of Putin's convoluted mind, is that it's a TRIPLE bluff and the Russian Asset is indeed Muscles Johnson. In which case, hats off to Vlad, that would be some truly world-beating spookery.
    Read a fair bit of le Carré in my time, but not TSWCIFTC; probably thought foolishly that seeing the very decent film was enough.

    A time when spies (for better or worse) were motivated by ideals/ideology seems strangely quaint nowadays.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 1,573
    So did Tony Blair really say advocate the entire population being tested once a week for COVI-19, or was he making some sort of point about what would be necessary in a hypothetical and ideal world?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    TimT said:

    nichomar said:

    Knives out for Catalonia

    The president of the Diputación and Tourism Costa del Sol, Francisco Salado, has considered "unfair" and "a hard blow" the quarantine imposed by the United Kingdom on tourists traveling from Spain. Salado has said that searches and bookings for British tourists have been improving and growing a lot in recent weeks and this new quarantine returns them to the "exit box". "The data and figures on the evolution of the disease in Malaga, Andalusia and many other territories in our country are reasonably good and better than in the United Kingdom itself," he emphasized. For the sector, it is "a tremendous injustice" that all pay for "the lousy health and pandemic prevention management of an autonomous autonomous government that has not done its homework," whose officials "spend the day talking about self-determination and self-government. but then they are not able to manage their competences or work to stop the spread of the disease. "

    Spurious argument to make that regions of Spain are better than the UK as a whole. I am sure there are regions of the UK that are as good as the best regions in Spain - parts of Devon spring to mind.
    Entire nations in the UK - Northern Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall - are better than Spain.

    And Spain has a properly nasty second wave. 2,250 new cases in a day

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8559135/Spain-records-2-255-Covid-cases-24-hours-number-infections-319-501.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 5,764

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Buy them Vitality private health insurance....
  • TresTres Posts: 137
    edited July 26
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
    They still need to do some work on their silky smooth assassinations of traitors, mind.
    I was having this same debate with a friend linked to British intelligence.

    His theory is that the Russians and Chinese are working as a tag team. The Chinese are doing the massive industrial espionage, stealing western secrets, because they have the money and scale; the Russians are doing the social media sabotage, destroying western self confidence, and roiling our politics, because they are good at THAT, as they know the cultural faultlines to attack.

    Perhaps they should both subcontract the assassinations to North Korea.
    Shame there's no money for trolling users of VK in cyrillic script.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085

    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He claims to post academic stuff but he's just got an agenda as many other posters do.

    That's not to say some of his suggestions aren't correct, he's done some good videos on where the Labour vote went.

    Unfortunately his solution is for Labour to out-culture the Tories which most people know is impossible and so I get the sense it's a suggestion made in bad faith. It also completely neglects the fact that Blair won three elections being fairly "woke"/liberal for the time.

    I think it's far more about messaging and picking the battles, than just culture culture culture
    I don't think Blair was woke/liberal (a phrase that didn't exist then) he was more populist/liberal.

    He wrapped himself in the flag "Cool Britannia" and made rather populist liberalisations. Which is why gay marriage was still illegal when he left office and it took Cameron to legalise it.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 541
    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 17,637

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 5,764

    kinabalu said:

    I don't know if you have read The Spy Who Came In From The Cold but it has a brilliant double bluff by MI6 to protect an Asset in East Germany. Applied here by the Russians it would mean that Carole is their Asset. No doubt the Security Services - no fools and having inspired Le Carre's book - are working on that assumption. But perhaps more likely, given advances in deviousness since 1963 and what we know of Putin's convoluted mind, is that it's a TRIPLE bluff and the Russian Asset is indeed Muscles Johnson. In which case, hats off to Vlad, that would be some truly world-beating spookery.
    Read a fair bit of le Carré in my time, but not TSWCIFTC; probably thought foolishly that seeing the very decent film was enough.

    A time when spies (for better or worse) were motivated by ideals/ideology seems strangely quaint nowadays.
    The film is remarkably close to the book.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,482
    LadyG said:

    Now they are coming for our ecosystems

    Could be this, sometimes the packages are completely empty:
    "A seller acquires the actually name and address of a real e-commerce user and creates a fake account for them on the platform they’re selling on. They then make what appears to be an order of their product from the victim’s fake account, ship out a package that is either empty or contains a low-value, light weight item, and then, after the delivery has been confirmed, leaves a 5-star review to boost their rankings and attract more sales. To the platform and other users, these faux reviews appear to be from legitimate and verified sales. Beyond the benefit of favorable reviews, simply having additional sales is often enough to raise a product in the rankings of some e-commerce sites, such as Amazon."
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2019/10/25/americans-are-still-receiving-unordered-packages-from-asian-e-criminals/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,809
    LadyG said:

    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
    This is why on here I seek to dampen rather than stimulate "culture war" debate.

    It's important not to collaborate - even in the teeniest way - with Putin's Russia.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    edited July 26

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 17,637
    LadyG said:

    TimT said:

    nichomar said:

    Knives out for Catalonia

    The president of the Diputación and Tourism Costa del Sol, Francisco Salado, has considered "unfair" and "a hard blow" the quarantine imposed by the United Kingdom on tourists traveling from Spain. Salado has said that searches and bookings for British tourists have been improving and growing a lot in recent weeks and this new quarantine returns them to the "exit box". "The data and figures on the evolution of the disease in Malaga, Andalusia and many other territories in our country are reasonably good and better than in the United Kingdom itself," he emphasized. For the sector, it is "a tremendous injustice" that all pay for "the lousy health and pandemic prevention management of an autonomous autonomous government that has not done its homework," whose officials "spend the day talking about self-determination and self-government. but then they are not able to manage their competences or work to stop the spread of the disease. "

    Spurious argument to make that regions of Spain are better than the UK as a whole. I am sure there are regions of the UK that are as good as the best regions in Spain - parts of Devon spring to mind.
    Entire nations in the UK - Northern Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall - are better than Spain.

    And Spain has a properly nasty second wave. 2,250 new cases in a day

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8559135/Spain-records-2-255-Covid-cases-24-hours-number-infections-319-501.html
    How do the areas with infections in Spain compare with the areas which had infections in the Spring ?

    Are some places getting effectively their first wave ?
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 130
    Goodwin noticed before most that the academic world is mostly now full of virtue signallers on the left and that meant there was a niche area in the media for an academic to fill on the populist right.
    If he was authentically populist right wing the BBC would not be inviting him onto their tv or radio programmes .
    Note the way that Katie Hopkins has now joined Tommy Robinson in being completely no-platformed from the mainstream media and note how few of the usual respectable 'right wing voices 'the BBC/SKY etc invite onto their shows are prepared to question why are the voices of Hopkins,Robinson etc no-platformed?
    The Spiked/Unherd/Spectator etc voices probably know they would not be invited back by MSM to appear on their shows if they did or like Godwin they have spotted a niche area in the MSM to fill.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
    This is why on here I seek to dampen rather than stimulate "culture war" debate.

    It's important not to collaborate - even in the teeniest way - with Putin's Russia.
    No, you don't try to dampen, you try to impose a soft Woke consensus which we must all obey. You're just another footsoldier for Putin, without even realising.

    As am I, of course.
  • TresTres Posts: 137

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Interesting that the baseball season has started this weekend with the players doing the same, barring the odd exception that has been shrugged off. Culture wars are beginning to lose their venom. Taking the knee will become routine.
  • LadyG said:

    There's nothing wrong with Goodwin pushing an agenda, he can do what he likes.

    I just fear people on the right can't see it because he supports their views, he just "seems" to be a leftie

    it is quite clear to me that Goodwin is on the right, just as, say, Jolyon Maugham is a fox bashing Remainer, and Caitlin Moran is a feminist lefty.

    Despite their obvious bias, they all say interesting and observant things, from time to time.
    Balanced, I like it. And I agree.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923

    LadyG said:

    TimT said:

    nichomar said:

    Knives out for Catalonia

    The president of the Diputación and Tourism Costa del Sol, Francisco Salado, has considered "unfair" and "a hard blow" the quarantine imposed by the United Kingdom on tourists traveling from Spain. Salado has said that searches and bookings for British tourists have been improving and growing a lot in recent weeks and this new quarantine returns them to the "exit box". "The data and figures on the evolution of the disease in Malaga, Andalusia and many other territories in our country are reasonably good and better than in the United Kingdom itself," he emphasized. For the sector, it is "a tremendous injustice" that all pay for "the lousy health and pandemic prevention management of an autonomous autonomous government that has not done its homework," whose officials "spend the day talking about self-determination and self-government. but then they are not able to manage their competences or work to stop the spread of the disease. "

    Spurious argument to make that regions of Spain are better than the UK as a whole. I am sure there are regions of the UK that are as good as the best regions in Spain - parts of Devon spring to mind.
    Entire nations in the UK - Northern Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall - are better than Spain.

    And Spain has a properly nasty second wave. 2,250 new cases in a day

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8559135/Spain-records-2-255-Covid-cases-24-hours-number-infections-319-501.html
    How do the areas with infections in Spain compare with the areas which had infections in the Spring ?

    Are some places getting effectively their first wave ?
    I don't know all the deets but I think Catalunya, esp Barca, is definitely getting a second wave. But there are Spain-based PBers who will know better
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,809
    edited July 26

    kinabalu said:

    I don't know if you have read The Spy Who Came In From The Cold but it has a brilliant double bluff by MI6 to protect an Asset in East Germany. Applied here by the Russians it would mean that Carole is their Asset. No doubt the Security Services - no fools and having inspired Le Carre's book - are working on that assumption. But perhaps more likely, given advances in deviousness since 1963 and what we know of Putin's convoluted mind, is that it's a TRIPLE bluff and the Russian Asset is indeed Muscles Johnson. In which case, hats off to Vlad, that would be some truly world-beating spookery.
    Read a fair bit of le Carré in my time, but not TSWCIFTC; probably thought foolishly that seeing the very decent film was enough.

    A time when spies (for better or worse) were motivated by ideals/ideology seems strangely quaint nowadays.
    The film is very good. Burton perfect for the role and not over-acting. Book is excellent and can be consumed in a day. But if you know the twist, and given how many great books there are, maybe not too terrible a miss at this point.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    Tres said:

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Interesting that the baseball season has started this weekend with the players doing the same, barring the odd exception that has been shrugged off. Culture wars are beginning to lose their venom. Taking the knee will become routine.
    Not sure that will happen in the UK, our situation is different. Eventually it will just become boring, and they will do it once a month, or once a season. Then never.

    Note how the NHS clapping faded away, and when they tried to revive it, the attempt was a very damp squib.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085
    Cricket going very slow considering the weather forecast.

    Stokes should be promoted to Number 3 for this innings and Broad at 4 both with instructions to swing the bat.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 17,637

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085
    Metatron said:

    Goodwin noticed before most that the academic world is mostly now full of virtue signallers on the left and that meant there was a niche area in the media for an academic to fill on the populist right.
    If he was authentically populist right wing the BBC would not be inviting him onto their tv or radio programmes .
    Note the way that Katie Hopkins has now joined Tommy Robinson in being completely no-platformed from the mainstream media and note how few of the usual respectable 'right wing voices 'the BBC/SKY etc invite onto their shows are prepared to question why are the voices of Hopkins,Robinson etc no-platformed?
    The Spiked/Unherd/Spectator etc voices probably know they would not be invited back by MSM to appear on their shows if they did or like Godwin they have spotted a niche area in the MSM to fill.

    Hopkins is not right wing, she is far right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331

    LadyG said:

    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
    They still need to do some work on their silky smooth assassinations of traitors, mind.
    One of my favourite conspiracy theories was how the russians couldn't have been behind the Skripal attack because it was not successful, since apparently it'd be impossible for the russians to cock up. My dad still uses that one, though thankfully no longer talks about the 'convenient' nearness of Porton Down or disbelieves that May visited Salisbury afterwards and therefore the BBC edited footage.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Seems like a good idea.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 953

    Cricket going very slow


    Is that not sort of like saying water is wet?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,546
    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    edited July 26

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Seems like a good idea.
    How would you define "full racial equality"?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    LadyG said:

    There's nothing wrong with Goodwin pushing an agenda, he can do what he likes.

    I just fear people on the right can't see it because he supports their views, he just "seems" to be a leftie

    it is quite clear to me that Goodwin is on the right, just as, say, Jolyon Maugham is a fox bashing Remainer, and Caitlin Moran is a feminist lefty.

    Despite their obvious bias, they all say interesting and observant things, from time to time.
    Seems reasonable. Seems to be that while objectivity is the goal we're all human and and so in practical terms the goal is not to necessarily hide your own political leanings, it is to be as objective as possible despite them when presenting a particular argument. I suspect like a lot of people Goodwin is better at doing that beyond twitter than on it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Seems like a good idea.
    How would you define "full racial equality"?
    Well for starters no more monkey chants or other racism in football stadia.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    Pagan2 said:

    Cricket going very slow


    Is that not sort of like saying water is wet?
    How very dare you? Test Cricket has all speeds - slow, calm, magisterial, dogged, patient, gritty, leisurely, measured, steady, gentle, and sedate.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085
    Pagan2 said:

    Cricket going very slow


    Is that not sort of like saying water is wet?
    QTWAIN.
  • TresTres Posts: 137

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    Tres said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
    I know AndyJS has in the past suggested height shaming is another one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,809
    edited July 26

    kinabalu said:

    I don't know if you have read The Spy Who Came In From The Cold but it has a brilliant double bluff by MI6 to protect an Asset in East Germany. Applied here by the Russians it would mean that Carole is their Asset. No doubt the Security Services - no fools and having inspired Le Carre's book - are working on that assumption. But perhaps more likely, given advances in deviousness since 1963 and what we know of Putin's convoluted mind, is that it's a TRIPLE bluff and the Russian Asset is indeed Muscles Johnson. In which case, hats off to Vlad, that would be some truly world-beating spookery.
    Read a fair bit of le Carré in my time, but not TSWCIFTC; probably thought foolishly that seeing the very decent film was enough.

    A time when spies (for better or worse) were motivated by ideals/ideology seems strangely quaint nowadays.
    The film is remarkably close to the book.
    It really is. Low key, seedily atmospheric, killer twist. I have no clue what the intelligence game is truly like but it felt authentic. Made me think, "Yeah, bet that's pretty much how it is." Not a jet pack or an Aston Martin in sight. Not even any getting busy with attractive enigmatic females.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085
    Tres said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
    Idiot shaming seems to be tolerated.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,454
    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
    I know AndyJS has in the past suggested height shaming is another one.
    People can't control their height. Most people can control their weight.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    Tres said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
    I don’t really agree with “fat-positivity” in a sense that I think people should be encouraged to be healthy, not accept unhealthiness as “ok”.

    However, that doesn’t mean people should be treated with contempt or be bullied because of it.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 5,830
    edited July 26
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    There's nothing wrong with Goodwin pushing an agenda, he can do what he likes.

    I just fear people on the right can't see it because he supports their views, he just "seems" to be a leftie

    it is quite clear to me that Goodwin is on the right, just as, say, Jolyon Maugham is a fox bashing Remainer, and Caitlin Moran is a feminist lefty.

    Despite their obvious bias, they all say interesting and observant things, from time to time.
    Seems reasonable. Seems to be that while objectivity is the goal we're all human and and so in practical terms the goal is not to necessarily hide your own political leanings, it is to be as objective as possible despite them when presenting a particular argument. I suspect like a lot of people Goodwin is better at doing that beyond twitter than on it.
    Goodwin is good off Twitter but that Twitter thread is an embarrassment and does him no favours
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He's not pushing a conservative agenda, he's doing his best to educate the left on why they keep losing elections.
    I love this quantum state we exist in where the Left are useless wasters who perpetually lose elections and should be roundly mocked for this yet simultaneously an all powerful mob who completely control society from top to bottom with their mighty Cancel Culture which the Centre and Right cower in fear from.
    It's a fair point, although I'd not be surprised if there are voices on the left who lament that in societal terms things they regard as part of 'their' agenda have made great progress in recent decades, yet they struggle to succeed electorally despite that.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Seems like a good idea.
    How would you define "full racial equality"?
    Well for starters no more monkey chants or other racism in football stadia.
    That crap was almost completely cleared from British football many years ago. Thankfully. You still get the odd idiot who might hiss at Spurs, but it is a tiny minority.

    If that is your metric then I'd say it is job done.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Seems like a good idea.
    If they want to I have no objection, but depending on rate of progress does that not risk it becoming a trite, meaningless gesture over time? If in 2 years there's a burst of intensity as not enough is being done do they add something further to taking a knee?

    Gestures are not meaningless much of the time, but they can become meaningless.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 953

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    It comes down to choice, you are responsible for the choices you make no one else.

    If you choose to stuff your maw with unhealthy stuff that is entirely down to you. You made a conscious choice to eat it so who else is it you think is to blame.

    Now I put my hand up and say I probably drink more than I should mainly down to stress....however I could find other ways of stress relief that pouring a glass of whiskey and the reason I don't is because its the easy way out to just pour a glass of the amber fluid and savour it . In other words the other methods of stress relief are too much effort and I am lazy.

    Letting people think they have excuses for personal choices robs them of agency, I eat unhealthily/drink too much/smoke too much etc.....but its not really my fault because work/commute/kids tire me out so you can't blame me. That let off allows them to continue the unhealthy behaviour with a clear conscience.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 7,088


    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.

    It's actually very easy and cheap to eat badly as well. It's not just "takeaways", it's the high salt and sugar intake many have.

    One thing that irritates me is watching Ramsay, Oliver and the other "celeb" chefs smother food with salt and pepper as though it were the only thing food ever needed.

    Cheap food doesn't have to be bad food but it often is - supermarket meat is full of water and tasteless but for many that's the only option they have. The supermarkets killed the local butcher, fishmonger and greengrocer and we now pay the price in terms of health issues.

    I was brought up on Farley's Rusks (anyone remember them?). That's why I had and still have a sweet tooth. Chocolate is another problem - it should be classed as a soft drug (it is addictive). We consume 7.6 kilograms (17 lbs) per person per year.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,189
    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,711
    TimT said:

    nichomar said:

    Knives out for Catalonia

    The president of the Diputación and Tourism Costa del Sol, Francisco Salado, has considered "unfair" and "a hard blow" the quarantine imposed by the United Kingdom on tourists traveling from Spain. Salado has said that searches and bookings for British tourists have been improving and growing a lot in recent weeks and this new quarantine returns them to the "exit box". "The data and figures on the evolution of the disease in Malaga, Andalusia and many other territories in our country are reasonably good and better than in the United Kingdom itself," he emphasized. For the sector, it is "a tremendous injustice" that all pay for "the lousy health and pandemic prevention management of an autonomous autonomous government that has not done its homework," whose officials "spend the day talking about self-determination and self-government. but then they are not able to manage their competences or work to stop the spread of the disease. "

    Spurious argument to make that regions of Spain are better than the UK as a whole. I am sure there are regions of the UK that are as good as the best regions in Spain - parts of Devon spring to mind.
    Agree - the big mistake for which you can blame both countries pretty much equally is too much 'relaxation' too quickly. for entirely laudable reasons to get economies moving. but with equally predictable results. I also would add that it's difficult to be too sympathetic to any individuals who decided a foreign holiday was essential so soon after all the problems. Not a risk I would have considered.
  • I think if you want to make unhealthy choices then that's up to you.

    And I don't think we should glamourise unhealthy lifestyles.

    But being size 0 isn't the definition of healthy, people are naturally bigger than others.

    I don't think telling people they're fat slobs is helpful at all. It won't help them lose weight or get the help they need (if they need help, perhaps they don't want it and that's their choice).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    edited July 26

    Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    I always feel Matthew Goodwin is pushing a conservative agenda,.not least based on whom he chose to cover in his book about nationalism - why exclude Macron unless the concept is about repackaging conservatism?

    He's not pushing a conservative agenda, he's doing his best to educate the left on why they keep losing elections.
    So that's why he was forced to eat pages from his book?

    Fun clip. A specific and highly precise prediction for a single general election being incorrect would not in itself invalidate a broad hypothesis of a general trend of course.

    I thought Labour would do a lot better than they did in 2019, but that doesn't mean everything I say now is nonsense, just most of it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,546
    stodge said:


    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.

    It's actually very easy and cheap to eat badly as well. It's not just "takeaways", it's the high salt and sugar intake many have.

    One thing that irritates me is watching Ramsay, Oliver and the other "celeb" chefs smother food with salt and pepper as though it were the only thing food ever needed.

    Cheap food doesn't have to be bad food but it often is - supermarket meat is full of water and tasteless but for many that's the only option they have. The supermarkets killed the local butcher, fishmonger and greengrocer and we now pay the price in terms of health issues.

    I was brought up on Farley's Rusks (anyone remember them?). That's why I had and still have a sweet tooth. Chocolate is another problem - it should be classed as a soft drug (it is addictive). We consume 7.6 kilograms (17 lbs) per person per year.

    BiB - That is completely untrue where I live. Sainsbury's does a roaring trade, but so do the local butchers and greengrocers. It's not an either/or.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 5,809
    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,828
    Lady G, I wonder if they see it as cyber Maskirovka.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    Pagan2 said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    It comes down to choice, you are responsible for the choices you make no one else.

    If you choose to stuff your maw with unhealthy stuff that is entirely down to you. You made a conscious choice to eat it so who else is it you think is to blame.

    Now I put my hand up and say I probably drink more than I should mainly down to stress....however I could find other ways of stress relief that pouring a glass of whiskey and the reason I don't is because its the easy way out to just pour a glass of the amber fluid and savour it . In other words the other methods of stress relief are too much effort and I am lazy.

    Letting people think they have excuses for personal choices robs them of agency, I eat unhealthily/drink too much/smoke too much etc.....but its not really my fault because work/commute/kids tire me out so you can't blame me. That let off allows them to continue the unhealthy behaviour with a clear conscience.
    Yes. Fat shaming is wrong - ie verbally abusing people for being blobs - however there MUST be some sense of personal responsibility and social tutting.

    People take heroin out of stress, they kick the dog because of stress, they guzzle too much wine out of stress (me), they eat seventeen KFC buckets a day out of stress. All of these should earn an element of social disapproval, in various forms.

    We did it for drink driving, and we are now doing it for smoking.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,546
    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085
    I don't see why people are objecting to what Goodwin said, it is objectively true.

    There is a difference between saying something is a minority concern . . . and suggesting it is unpopular. A lot of people are acting like Goodwin was saying the latter, but he's not and never did.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,106
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    RT's Twitter account is surprisingly deft, perceptive and sometimes funny. They really know how to skewer enemies, too.

    The Russians have got trolling and botting down to an art-form, they hijack every argument on social media to their benefit: ie they make the debate as divisive in the West as possible.
    They still need to do some work on their silky smooth assassinations of traitors, mind.
    One of my favourite conspiracy theories was how the russians couldn't have been behind the Skripal attack because it was not successful, since apparently it'd be impossible for the russians to cock up. My dad still uses that one, though thankfully no longer talks about the 'convenient' nearness of Porton Down or disbelieves that May visited Salisbury afterwards and therefore the BBC edited footage.
    I think even in Soviet days there was a taste for making retribution messily public pour encourager les autres. However on those bleak terms, allowing the target(s) to survive while killing a totally innocent civilian is a fail.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,546

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    It has crossed my mind that there is an outside possibility that Mesut Ozil's absence is connected to BLM. It would be understandable if he was a bit miffed given the ticking off he received for talking about the plight of the Uighurs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
    I know AndyJS has in the past suggested height shaming is another one.
    People can't control their height. Most people can control their weight.
    I do think we send out very conflicting messages on weight and body shaming and the like. I think public messaging on eating better and doing more exercise is actually very strong, and ultimately it is down to individuals to do more for themselves and government having yet more awareness campaigns or banning advertising would have limited additional effect. But despite being so strong on the need to be healthy and the health industry being so huge, we also don't want to put so much on individuals to change their own behaviours, which in most cases will be the major factor. I'm not rich now but I used to be a lot poorer (albeit not four yorkshireman poor) and was a lot skinnir then, it isn't inevitable that poor people will be porky.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 953
    LadyG said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    It comes down to choice, you are responsible for the choices you make no one else.

    If you choose to stuff your maw with unhealthy stuff that is entirely down to you. You made a conscious choice to eat it so who else is it you think is to blame.

    Now I put my hand up and say I probably drink more than I should mainly down to stress....however I could find other ways of stress relief that pouring a glass of whiskey and the reason I don't is because its the easy way out to just pour a glass of the amber fluid and savour it . In other words the other methods of stress relief are too much effort and I am lazy.

    Letting people think they have excuses for personal choices robs them of agency, I eat unhealthily/drink too much/smoke too much etc.....but its not really my fault because work/commute/kids tire me out so you can't blame me. That let off allows them to continue the unhealthy behaviour with a clear conscience.
    Yes. Fat shaming is wrong - ie verbally abusing people for being blobs - however there MUST be some sense of personal responsibility and social tutting.

    People take heroin out of stress, they kick the dog because of stress, they guzzle too much wine out of stress (me), they eat seventeen KFC buckets a day out of stress. All of these should earn an element of social disapproval, in various forms.

    We did it for drink driving, and we are now doing it for smoking.
    I certainly was not advocating fat shaming, however I do think statements like

    "How do you expect them to go home and cook when they are exhausted after a 12 hour shift" are not helpful and very much handing them an excuse. It says "hey it's not your fault really....if you didn't work those hours you would eat healthily". When in truth you could reduce their hours to two a week with no loss of pay and they would still eat the same
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 1,825
    Not much to see here. MG is making the point that a top woke issue can't even scrape up a bare majority - see his headline - and the figures support this. He selects some that emphasise his point. He is tweeting, not writing a peer reviewed paper for 'The Journal of Wokish Studies'.

    The fact that only 42% support the anodyne question about generalised support for blm protests suggests that MG is onto something interesting.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,085
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Seems like a good idea.
    If they want to I have no objection, but depending on rate of progress does that not risk it becoming a trite, meaningless gesture over time? If in 2 years there's a burst of intensity as not enough is being done do they add something further to taking a knee?

    Gestures are not meaningless much of the time, but they can become meaningless.
    Possibly but then it also makes me think of what's often said about politicians trotting out the same lines again eg "get Brexit done" or "long term economic plan" . . . by the time you're getting fed up with it, people are beginning to notice it and take it in.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,809

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,106
    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Regardless of the rights & wrongs of BLM, only one black employee out of 1500 seems striking.

    "‘Dorna haven’t done enough’ says MotoGP’s only Black paddock member"

    https://tinyurl.com/y66nwe8n
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    edited July 26

    I think if you want to make unhealthy choices then that's up to you.

    And I don't think we should glamourise unhealthy lifestyles.

    But being size 0 isn't the definition of healthy, people are naturally bigger than others.

    I don't think telling people they're fat slobs is helpful at all. It won't help them lose weight or get the help they need (if they need help, perhaps they don't want it and that's their choice).

    If you want to make unhealthy choices that is up to you, to a certain extent, BUT because we have a universal health system, we all have to pay for you, if you are obese and just keep eating, and therefore get diabetes etc. So British society (and other welfare states) can justifiably say "NO, put down the extra pies, please".

    I suggest warnings on food, as with tobacco, and maybe a small tax on junk food, and sugary drinks. It goes against my libertarian instincts but it is clear obesity is now a major threat.

    Incidentally I wondered, some time ago, if obesity might prove to be a clinching factor in covid death rates. I might have been on to something.


    "Obesity can increase risk of coronavirus death by up to 90%, PHE report finds"


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/obesity-overweight-coronavirus-risks-increase-death-a4508281.html
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 8,300
    edited July 26
    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    It comes down to choice, you are responsible for the choices you make no one else.

    If you choose to stuff your maw with unhealthy stuff that is entirely down to you. You made a conscious choice to eat it so who else is it you think is to blame.

    Now I put my hand up and say I probably drink more than I should mainly down to stress....however I could find other ways of stress relief that pouring a glass of whiskey and the reason I don't is because its the easy way out to just pour a glass of the amber fluid and savour it . In other words the other methods of stress relief are too much effort and I am lazy.

    Letting people think they have excuses for personal choices robs them of agency, I eat unhealthily/drink too much/smoke too much etc.....but its not really my fault because work/commute/kids tire me out so you can't blame me. That let off allows them to continue the unhealthy behaviour with a clear conscience.
    Yes. Fat shaming is wrong - ie verbally abusing people for being blobs - however there MUST be some sense of personal responsibility and social tutting.

    People take heroin out of stress, they kick the dog because of stress, they guzzle too much wine out of stress (me), they eat seventeen KFC buckets a day out of stress. All of these should earn an element of social disapproval, in various forms.

    We did it for drink driving, and we are now doing it for smoking.
    I certainly was not advocating fat shaming, however I do think statements like

    "How do you expect them to go home and cook when they are exhausted after a 12 hour shift" are not helpful and very much handing them an excuse. It says "hey it's not your fault really....if you didn't work those hours you would eat healthily". When in truth you could reduce their hours to two a week with no loss of pay and they would still eat the same
    You should learn to read. I did not say “how do you expect them..”. I just mentioned a contributing factor. That it’s not surprising.

    I eat much healthier when I’m on holiday, because I have plenty of time to cook. When i’m busy and stressed, I eat much worse.

    I would like to add that I’m fit and healthy and certainly not overweight.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,119
    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    0-0 85-90 MC vs NC
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,189
    tlg86 said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    It has crossed my mind that there is an outside possibility that Mesut Ozil's absence is connected to BLM. It would be understandable if he was a bit miffed given the ticking off he received for talking about the plight of the Uighurs.
    I was about to mention. But then support for BLM doesn't cost anything whereas support for Uyghurs would.
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